WEBVTT - #254 Jason Flom with Chris Ochoa 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:05.720 In nineteen eighty eight, roommates Chris Ochoe and Richard Danziger 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:08.799 worked at two different Pizza Hut locations in Austin, Texas. 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:12.039 When a robbery, rape, and murder occurred at another location 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:15.760 in the early morning hours of October twenty fourth, Nancy 0:00:15.840 --> 0:00:18.280 Dupriest led in a man disguised as a repairman, who 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:22.400 would later admit to committing the crime alone. However, before 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:25.400 this spontaneous admission of guilt, the lack of forced entry 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:29.320 led police to focus on other Pizza Hut employees. Several 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:33.720 were brought to a notorious interrogator, Detective Hector Polanco, including 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:38.000 Chris Ochoa. As we commonly see in pattern and practice 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:41.360 from investigators all over the country, Polanco lied about crime 0:00:41.400 --> 0:00:44.880 scene evidence, polygraph results, and made threats of the death 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:47.479 penalty and prison rape. To coerce a statement from a 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:51.600 frightened young man, Chris gave false statements implicating himself and 0:00:51.720 --> 0:00:55.120 Richard Danziger to avoid Polanco's threats of a death sentence. 0:00:55.680 --> 0:00:59.760 The prosecution passed off primitive and inconclusive DNA test results, 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:03.000 as well as dubious hair microscopy as evidence of guilt, 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:06.000 but Chris's false confession was really all they needed to 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:09.120 set both of them away for life. Both Chris and 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:12.400 Richard languished in prison until the Wisconsin Innis's Project was 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:16.240 finally able to present modern DNA test results that only 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:19.479 corroborated what the real rapist and killer had been confessing 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:24.120 to multiple authorities as early as nineteen ninety six. This 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:43.440 is Wrongful Conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction today's episode. 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:46.480 I guess if you were to say, can you point 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:53.360 to a case that highlights everything that's wrong with our system, 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:57.200 you could easily say, let's talk about the case of 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:01.160 Chris Ochoa, sometimes referred to is the Pizza Hut case. 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:04.560 But we have the man here today himself in person 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:08.600 with us. Chris o'choa. I'm very honored to have you 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:09.680 here today on the show. 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:10.919 Thank you for having me. 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:14.280 Jason. Joining us today is John Pray. John is a 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:17.720 retired clinical professor at the University of Wisconsin Law School, 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:22.440 was a driving force in the exoneration of Chris o'choa 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:26.720 and has been a force for good for many years 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:30.320 for many different innocent people. So John, I'm very very 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:32.239 grateful to you for being here today as well. 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:34.600 Thanks for having me'm I'm happy to be here. 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:39.520 And this case, like many of our cases, involves a 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:42.000 young man Chris, who was twenty two years old at 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:45.520 the time, who had never had any real issues, was 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:49.280 an honor student editor of the high school literary magazine. 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:51.480 Sort of mild mannered guy. You're still a mild matter guy, 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:54.200 Chris winchesday amazingly. 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:57.320 Unless you give me in a court room a story. 0:02:58.200 --> 0:03:02.080 Well said, so says I mentioned was a good kid, 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:03.680 and I'm going to say you, at twenty two years old, 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:07.480 you're still a kid. But there were forces of evil 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:12.360 that were overwhelming in this instance, right, Not just the 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:15.280 evil that was perpetrated on the victim in this case, 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:20.040 in what is a grotesque crime by anybody's definition, but 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:24.280 also the evil compounded on itself by virtue of the 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:30.840 fact that Detective Hector Polanco was the detective who railroaded Chris, 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:34.880 who allowed the actual perpetrator to remain free. It's hard 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:40.000 to overstate the misdeeds that he committed, not just in 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:43.160 your case, but in many others. John, Can you tell 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:47.360 us about this Polonco character and what his history tells us. 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:51.040 And this is even before Chris ever had the misfortune 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:52.320 of coming on to his radar. 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:56.720 We didn't know about mister Polanco until we got involved 0:03:56.720 --> 0:04:00.400 with Chris's case, of course, but I think we were 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:03.040 investigating that we had learned that he had had a 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:06.800 history of playing somewhat loose with the facts. I guess 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:08.880 you could say on some other cases. 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:13.920 Yeah, I mean his name featured prominently and in the 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:18.159 most sinister ways in the cases of Alan Causey, Bruce Bowser, 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:23.840 Richard osase Edia, a Nigerian student who falsely confessed if. 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:26.440 I remember right. One of them was called the Yogurt 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:31.080 shop cases. I think he had been instrumental in creating 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:33.080 some false confessions in that case. 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:37.159 The infamous Yogurt Chop murders took place in December nineteen 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:40.040 ninety one, where four girls were murdered and the crimate 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:44.560 remained unsolved for eight years, And that's when police announced 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:46.320 the rest of four suspects who had come under the 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:53.039 radar after very suspicious confessions that were very similar to 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:57.760 Chris's and that were not coincidentally conducted by Detective Polanco. 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:00.160 So we knew that he had some kind of history, 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:02.359 and we do know that he was in charge of 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:06.080 the case for Chris and led that interrogation. There were 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:08.080 other people in the room at the same time, but 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:10.800 I think he was the I think he called himself 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:11.599 the bogey man. 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:15.960 Let's just say that Chris, being sort of a mild 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:20.520 mannered honor student, was not prepared in any way when 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:25.680 he was interrogated by Detective Bilanco. Now let's go back 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:29.520 to the crime itself, Okay, because this crime I think 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:34.160 really shocked the local community, and brace yourself. On October 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:37.560 twenty fourth of nineteen eighty eight, a twenty year old 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:40.360 girl named Nancy the Priest was working alone in a 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:43.159 Pizza Hut restaurant in Austin, Texas, and it was during 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:46.560 her shift that the store was robbed. The Pizza Hut 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:48.520 was robbed, and she was tied up with her bra 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:53.240 raped and then shot in the head. Now, when this happened, you, 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:57.680 of course lived in the area. Where were you and 0:05:57.720 --> 0:06:00.719 your co defendant, Richard Danziger I'm talking about, of course, 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:02.560 where were you, guys? And when did you first hear 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:02.960 about this? 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:07.200 Well, me and Richard worked at different pizza huts when 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:11.240 the crime happened. So when that crime happened, Richard was 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:15.120 late for a shift at his pizza hut. So they 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:18.920 called the apartment and I didn't answer the phone. One 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:20.920 of my other roommates censored it. You know, I heard 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:22.800 the phone, I rolled back to sleep, and then I 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:25.400 woke up and I turned on the news, and that's 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:30.480 when I saw the coverage. So I was shocked as 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:33.960 much as everybody else in Austin, and particularly that I 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:35.560 was an employee at another pizza hut. 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:39.880 And police they began investigating pizza hut workers because they believed, 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:41.359 I don't know whether they had reason to believe it, 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:43.960 but they did believe that a master key was used 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:47.799 to gain entry to the restaurant. And of course, where 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:52.320 this starts to, you know, really go downhill fast, is 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:56.240 that a few days later, an employee at the pizza 0:06:56.320 --> 0:06:58.680 hut saw you, Chris and Richard, who was only an 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:01.520 eighteen year old kid at this time, right, eating pizza, 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:05.520 drinking beer in the restaurant and raising a toast, or 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:08.560 so they thought to the victim in this case, in 0:07:08.600 --> 0:07:12.640 her honor. And you guys worked at different pizza huts 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:16.640 in the area, and so this was when detectives had 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:20.200 this sort of Eureka moment or whatever, and decided that 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:24.440 you must be good for it, because otherwise, why else 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:26.720 would you be acting this way. I mean, this is 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:31.600 obviously nothing like evidence. So what happened next? 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:35.960 Several days later, two Austin detectives went to the pizza 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:39.160 hut where I worked at in downtown Austin. It was 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:43.320 not Polanco. It was some white detective and this female 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:47.320 Espanily detective that showed up. They wanted to ask me 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:49.800 questions about a burgery, so they drove me to the 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:52.400 police station. They asked me some maybe two or three 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:57.480 questions about some burglary, which was nothing, but it didn't 0:07:57.480 --> 0:08:00.800 take about five minutes, and then they shifted me to 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:04.559 what I now know is the interrogation room. After they left, 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:09.920 then barges in Hector Bolanco, and he looks me up 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:12.920 and down. Look, I mean, he looks me from head 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:15.400 to toe and he tells me, do you know what 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:19.400 they called me on street in Spanish? And I have 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:21.240 no idea, So that he tells me that they call 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:24.880 him the boogeyman. I guess he's trying to instill fear 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:28.240 in me. Then he starts asking me questions about the 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:31.600 pizza robbery, and I tell him I don't know anything 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:36.160 about it. And then he starts launching into this if 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:38.840 you know something about this crime or this murder or 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:42.040 this robbery, and if you don't cooperate with us, you're 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:44.720 going to get the death penalty. He started using the 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:47.520 death penalty from right off the top. If you don't 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:49.480 tell us, you're going to die. And I mean, it 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:52.560 was relentless, and I kept saying, I don't know what 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:56.920 you're talking about. If I knew what, I would certainly cooperate, 0:08:56.920 --> 0:09:00.000 but I don't know anything. And this is a turgetion. 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:04.920 It took hours. He would walk out, and then another detective, 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:09.480 the poor good cop after Malaysia, so saying, hey, my 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:12.160 partners are hot head, just tell us what you know 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:15.360 and then you can go home. He walks out and 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:19.000 walks Polanco again starts threatening me with a death penalty. 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:23.240 At some point he walks out and a female spanded 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:25.280 detective and this is I think a couple of hours 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:27.959 into the interrogation, asked, what do you think I can 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:31.679 have an attorney? And she said no. She got rips 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:35.800 that you can't have one. So you're officially charged. So 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:38.760 we all know that that's not right. But at that time, 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:43.240 she walked out, and then Polanco walks back in starts 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:47.280 threatening me with a death penalty again. She grabbed my arm, 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:49.839 tap my arm, the needles are gonna go one of 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:52.520 those veins or something like that. I'm gonna make sure 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:56.640 I'm there to see it. And it took hours, and 0:09:56.720 --> 0:10:00.880 at some point they just broke me down. Polanco had say, 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:03.320 you know, I'm getting tired of your bullshit. I'm just 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:05.760 gonna put you in jail, and in there, you're going 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:08.360 to be fresh meat for the prisoners because you're young. 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:10.360 I know you don't have a record. He and you 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:13.439 had to have a record. When he turned prison house rate. 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:16.120 That was the end of my rope. I told him, 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:18.360 what do you want me to say? I wanted it over. 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:22.640 I just wanted to go home. That first interrogation, they 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:27.119 were fixated on Richard Danziger. They said, did Richard Danziger? 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:30.200 Did he come back and tell you? So the first 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:35.920 statement that they forced me into signing was that Richard 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:38.520 did it and he came home from the apartment and 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:39.160 told me. 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:43.160 And then they gave you a confession to sign. And 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:45.800 here's the crazy thing. They didn't even need to write 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:51.120 the confession because this Polanco, the detective, has used the 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:56.040 same exact confession on two previous suspects. All he was 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:59.800 doing was whiting out the names, just white it out 0:10:59.840 --> 0:11:02.600 and then put in the name Chris o'choa sign here. 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:06.000 I mean, this is madness, this is America, right. 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:10.600 And so they brought Richard and they said he had 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:14.240 to face's accuser. They took me to see him. Shortly 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:17.360 that after they pulled me out and then I asked, 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:19.800 can I go home now? And they said no, we're 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:22.839 afraid for your safety. He just gave a statement against Richard. 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:24.880 He could hurt you. We're going to put you up 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:28.480 at a hotel in Austin. Well on Quin mentioned the DNA, 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:31.560 some new science and you can tell them you're there. 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:31.960 You're not. 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:35.000 Said we need you to give blood samples, hair samples. 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:37.920 Of course, the DNA at the time and eighty eight 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:42.720 was not as advanced as it is now. But I said, sure, 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:46.320 if that's going to help you show that I wasn't there. 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:48.679 So they took me to the hospital. I gave them 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:51.120 blood samples, hair samples that I cooperated. 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:54.840 They did do a rape kid Unfortunately this was late eighties. 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:59.040 They did do some DNA analysis, However, it was not 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:04.000 the kind of DNA analysis that later proved Chris's innocence. 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:07.880 In Richard's innocence, it was a more primitive form called 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:11.640 d Q alpha, and it showed that one in six 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:15.760 Hispanic Americans could have done this, and Chris was among 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:18.280 the one in the six, and so they used that 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:22.280 as some degree of evidence. They also had a hair 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:25.760 that was found on the body of Nancy DePriest and 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:28.800 they looked through a microscope with that hair and they 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:34.760 said that is consistent with the hair of Richard. And 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:37.800 they made a big deal out of that, showing it 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:41.240 looks like his hair, it is his hair. And you know, 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:44.320 they didn't have the benefit of DNA analysis that hair, 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:47.640 which would later show that it excluded Richard. You know, 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:51.880 the technology improved later, but at the time they made 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:55.120 a bigger deal out of that hair than was justified. 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:59.520 So they're coercing you with threats of prison, rape, and 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:03.719 the death penalty while also using the junk science of 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:06.880 har microscopy, which don't even get me started on how 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:11.040 subjective and meaningless, utterly meaningless that is. But not only that, 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:15.720 they're using this primitive DNA testing, acting like being able 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:18.400 to say that you and the actual assailant fall into 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:21.720 the same sixteen percent of the Mexican population, which basically 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:25.360 comes down to about one in six Mexicans. I mean, 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:29.760 it's unbelievable that this was even considered or ultimately past 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:33.400 as evidence. But okay, so now they've got the statement 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:37.160 about Richard out of you, but they're still only halfway done. 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:41.600 So it's a Friday, and they basically kidnapped you, call 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:42.920 it what it is, and put you up at a 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:46.080 hotel for the weekend. I mean, you could have left, 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:49.720 but you didn't know that, right, I mean, that's that's 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:53.160 another sick thing about this. And now Monday rolls around 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:56.679 and they've got even more dirty tricks up their sleeve. 0:13:57.040 --> 0:14:02.160 So comes Monday, Holanko and the other detective Malaysia show 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:04.600 up to the hotel room take me. They want to 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:08.040 take me back to station to ask me more questions. 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:12.719 But then they said that they wanted me to take 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:17.320 a polygraph test. A lion took to polygraph test. They said, 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:21.720 I registered deception. I was an a kid. I don't know. 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:24.000 It was a stress test and not a light detective test. 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:26.080 They said we think you were in there. 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:28.640 I think the main purpose of a lie detective test 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:32.480 is whatever it might yield, they are going to go 0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:35.720 back to the suspect and say, well, you failed it, 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:38.560 and now we have that against you, and it just 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:41.440 gives them a reason to say, well, I guess maybe 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:44.240 I should confess because apparently they think I was lying. 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:48.000 But part of their technique is to make lies about 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:50.200 the evidence they have, and they try to convince you 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:53.520 that they know you're guilty. Your only way out of 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:56.320 it is to confess. And I think when someone I 0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:58.880 think it could be anybody, but especially young people or 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:03.320 people who are nai is confronted with a detective saying 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:07.200 we have evidence that isn't true, but you don't know that, 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:10.960 and your only way out of this is to confess, 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:13.080 and that's the only way your life is going to 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:15.120 be spared or you're not going to be thrown into 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:17.440 a jail cell as fresh meat. 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:21.200 And in this case, my understanding is not only did 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:23.560 they do all the things that you talked about, Chris, 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:27.080 but also Polanco threw a chair at you, showed you 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:29.760 photographs of death row where you're going to end up 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:33.320 if you didn't confess, and there's a quote from him 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:37.000 that sends the chills up my spine where he said, quote, 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:38.840 we're going to charge you with this crime, whether you 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:40.560 had anything to do with it or not, because this 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:43.400 is a real big case and they want somebody. 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:47.160 So now Polanco wants me to say that I was 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:51.480 in the Pizza Hut with Richard allegedly saying that I 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:55.440 and Richard rape Nancy the priest, and that we did 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:58.280 all kinds of horrible things. But so he started taping it. 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:00.720 He said, well, now, when you walked at the Pizza 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:04.040 Hunt with Richard, was there an item that what was 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:08.480 in there? I didn't know, and I would stop and stutter, 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:13.880 and he would say, well, was it there an apron there? Oh? Yeah, 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:16.600 that was an apron. So he would stop the tape, 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:19.880 rewind it, and then I would repeat what he wanted 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:23.000 me to say, and he said, well, tell us what 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:27.240 color the april once as well? Black or red? I 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:30.120 don't know. I kept guessing the whole publish spectrum. So 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:32.720 I got it right. Then he would stop the tape, 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:36.240 rewind it and record it. You know, he will coach 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:39.600 me on what to say. So the tape of that 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:42.440 late statement he was feeding me all the details. 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:45.120 So the state offered to give you a life sentence. 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:47.040 What a great deal that is? Not for something for 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:51.320 doing nothing, for having a toast, basically right. So I 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:52.720 offered to give you a life sentence if you could 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:55.800 deplete guilty and testify against Richard. And your alternative, of course, 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:58.560 was to face the death penalty. So after two twelve 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:01.400 hour interrogation sessions, think about how long that is to 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:04.320 be stuck in an airless room. I'll talk to the 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.359 audience now. Of course, with these people who are literally 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:09.960 trying to take your life away from you. You signed 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:13.359 the confessions which were totally concocted by the police, with 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:16.880 the white out and the whole thing. I mean, did 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:19.120 you even have an attorney at this point. 0:17:19.000 --> 0:17:22.120 When those statements are signed? I never had an attorney. 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:25.119 I didn't get an attorney until I was actually charged 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:28.800 and waned, and I believe a magistrate she asked me, 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:31.600 do you have an attorney, misscho So I do not. 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:34.639 I said, do you know what you're charged with? You 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:38.680 was shocked. Recess to court took me into her chambers 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:41.720 and I remember she calling somebody another daight. I don't 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:44.640 know what she called. She was said, why has this 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:48.240 man not been afforded an attorney yet? That's when the 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:53.000 attorney stepped in the defense attorneys. I was appointed defense 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:56.040 attorney and I told him exactly what I'm telling you, 0:17:56.200 --> 0:17:59.760 how these statements came about. And she said, there's no 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:03.840 way an innocent person would give such a detailed confession. 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:07.320 So he didn't believe that. You know, they coerced me. 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:10.520 So at the next quarter appearance, I asked I wanted 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:14.480 to fire the attorney, then insteaded appointing another defense attorney 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:18.200 who had more experience, and I told him the same 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:22.000 story when I interviewed with him the first time, and 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:25.920 I said, isn't it your job through my innocence, you 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:29.280 should investigate this? He said, no, my job is to 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:31.480 save your life. In a way, he was right, but no, 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:35.639 your job is to prove innocence. First, my defense attorneys 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:41.280 did no investigation. You mentioned law enforcement had a theory 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:43.919 that a master key was used to get into the 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:46.000 pizza hut because there was no evidence of breaking of 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:49.320 an entry into the pizza hut. This pizza hut two doors. 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:52.000 I know the detective wanted me to say that we 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:53.960 had a master key to get in a pizza hut 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:56.840 and we came into a certain door. Right, I don't 0:18:56.880 --> 0:19:00.640 know what door it was. But after John the Innis's 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:05.080 project investigated the whole thing, it turns out that there's 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:07.200 no way I could have gone through that door. That 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:10.520 polock hoomness is no way because that key didn't open 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:14.480 that door. There's no way because that door could not 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:17.800 be opened with any key. It was just jammed, had 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:19.240 to be opened from the inside. 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:22.439 Right. The classic hallmark of a false confession when the 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:24.880 facts of the crime scene don't even match the information 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:25.960 that they're feeding to. 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:30.240 You had, mister start. My defense attorneys gone and see 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:34.520 how wiable it is is go ask questions. The prosecutor 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:37.800 should have done that. Your job as an attorney is 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:41.439 to look at the conficion Does this really match the 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:45.919 evidence that these guys have? And they don't, But the 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:49.840 prosecute should be the one, Hey, I can't use this. 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:54.000 I think the defense attorneys looked at the confession and 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:58.040 they thought that's the end. There's no point in investigating 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:01.960 this any further. They didn't look into like, I wonder 0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:06.560 if this confession could be suppressed because he did ask 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:09.240 for an attorney. They didn't look at that. They didn't 0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:11.920 look at the alibi evidence that there was, they didn't 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:14.439 look at the physical evidence that there was. They just 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:17.040 saw the confession and said, well, that's he's going to 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:19.480 be convicted. So my job is to make sure he 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:21.800 doesn't get the death penalty. So we can do that 0:20:21.840 --> 0:20:25.320 by having Chris plead guilty. And you know, when your 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:30.159 attorney's telling you that Chris believed that. And when I 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:33.479 called the defense attorney when we were investigating it, this 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:36.080 is twelve years later, we asked him what he had 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:39.120 done and he said like, well, did Chris tell you 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:42.800 that his fingerprints were found on the gun and things 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:46.400 like that? And I said no, So I go back 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:48.239 to Chris and say, Chris, you didn't tell us your 0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:50.800 fingerprints were on the gun. And of course it turns 0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:54.040 out that that was just a lie, or that he 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:57.240 had forgotten that Polanco and made up his own evidence 0:20:57.359 --> 0:20:59.400 to make him think that Chris was guilty. There were 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:02.720 no fingerp rents on any gun, so he just I 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:05.920 think early on, decided my job is to keep him 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:08.959 from being executed, and therefore we're going to push this 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:11.720 flea through and get him life in prison. And that's 0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:12.680 exactly what they did. 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:17.280 One of the reasons I essentially pled guilty after a 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:21.159 year in jail was because apparently my defense attorney and 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:23.560 I don't know who else was calling my mom pretty 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:26.480 much every day telling her that she should get me 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:29.520 to plead guilty or she's going to lose her son. 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:33.400 You're going to murder her son. So essentially my mom 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:36.080 got to the point of a stroke, was brought on 0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:40.080 by stress, and at that point I called whoever I 0:21:40.119 --> 0:21:43.280 had to call, I'll plead guilty. I played guilty for 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:46.760 my mom. So at that point, the DA tells me, okay, 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:48.760 we're going to charge you with rape and they're trying 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:50.879 to get Richard on capitol murder. 0:21:51.040 --> 0:21:54.199 So at this point your fate was sealed. Chris. You 0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:57.840 had nobody to help you. The system had failed you 0:21:58.040 --> 0:22:00.639 and failed as the priest as well, and the public 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:03.199 and her family and everybody else, and you were doomed. 0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:06.200 Part of your deal was that you were basically compelled 0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:10.560 to testify against Danziger. Right you were convicted, as was 0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:14.040 Danziger in February nineteen ninety and both of you were 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:15.439 sent to life in prison. 0:22:16.080 --> 0:22:20.440 The moment to gab Will hit any sentencement. It came 0:22:20.520 --> 0:22:25.400 crashing down. I was like, I wasn't shocked. First night 0:22:26.000 --> 0:22:30.399 in the Texas prison when they slammed door shut, the 0:22:30.480 --> 0:22:37.679 metal clangs once that door slammed. That was when night crap. 0:22:39.560 --> 0:22:40.320 I mean here now. 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:56.240 This episode is underwritten by global law firm Greenberg Traig 0:22:56.600 --> 0:22:59.760 through its pro bono program, Greenberg Traig leverages it's more 0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:02.720 than twenty four hundred lawyers across forty two offices to 0:23:02.760 --> 0:23:05.679