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Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty eight, roommates Chris Ochoe and Richard Danziger

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Speaker 1: worked at two different Pizza Hut locations in Austin, Texas.

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Speaker 1: When a robbery, rape, and murder occurred at another location

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Speaker 1: in the early morning hours of October twenty fourth, Nancy

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Speaker 1: Dupriest led in a man disguised as a repairman, who

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Speaker 1: would later admit to committing the crime alone. However, before

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Speaker 1: this spontaneous admission of guilt, the lack of forced entry

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Speaker 1: led police to focus on other Pizza Hut employees. Several

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Speaker 1: were brought to a notorious interrogator, Detective Hector Polanco, including

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Speaker 1: Chris Ochoa. As we commonly see in pattern and practice

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Speaker 1: from investigators all over the country, Polanco lied about crime

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Speaker 1: scene evidence, polygraph results, and made threats of the death

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Speaker 1: penalty and prison rape. To coerce a statement from a

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Speaker 1: frightened young man, Chris gave false statements implicating himself and

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Speaker 1: Richard Danziger to avoid Polanco's threats of a death sentence.

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Speaker 1: The prosecution passed off primitive and inconclusive DNA test results,

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Speaker 1: as well as dubious hair microscopy as evidence of guilt,

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Speaker 1: but Chris's false confession was really all they needed to

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Speaker 1: set both of them away for life. Both Chris and

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Speaker 1: Richard languished in prison until the Wisconsin Innis's Project was

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Speaker 1: finally able to present modern DNA test results that only

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Speaker 1: corroborated what the real rapist and killer had been confessing

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Speaker 1: to multiple authorities as early as nineteen ninety six. This

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Speaker 1: is Wrongful Conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction today's episode.

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Speaker 1: I guess if you were to say, can you point

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Speaker 1: to a case that highlights everything that's wrong with our system,

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Speaker 1: you could easily say, let's talk about the case of

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Speaker 1: Chris Ochoa, sometimes referred to is the Pizza Hut case.

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Speaker 1: But we have the man here today himself in person

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Speaker 1: with us. Chris o'choa. I'm very honored to have you

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Speaker 1: here today on the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Jason. Joining us today is John Pray. John is a

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Speaker 1: retired clinical professor at the University of Wisconsin Law School,

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Speaker 1: was a driving force in the exoneration of Chris o'choa

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Speaker 1: and has been a force for good for many years

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Speaker 1: for many different innocent people. So John, I'm very very

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Speaker 1: grateful to you for being here today as well.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me'm I'm happy to be here.

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Speaker 1: And this case, like many of our cases, involves a

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Speaker 1: young man Chris, who was twenty two years old at

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Speaker 1: the time, who had never had any real issues, was

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Speaker 1: an honor student editor of the high school literary magazine.

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Speaker 1: Sort of mild mannered guy. You're still a mild matter guy,

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Speaker 1: Chris winchesday amazingly.

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Speaker 2: Unless you give me in a court room a story.

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Speaker 1: Well said, so says I mentioned was a good kid,

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to say you, at twenty two years old,

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Speaker 1: you're still a kid. But there were forces of evil

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Speaker 1: that were overwhelming in this instance, right, Not just the

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Speaker 1: evil that was perpetrated on the victim in this case,

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Speaker 1: in what is a grotesque crime by anybody's definition, but

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Speaker 1: also the evil compounded on itself by virtue of the

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Speaker 1: fact that Detective Hector Polanco was the detective who railroaded Chris,

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Speaker 1: who allowed the actual perpetrator to remain free. It's hard

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Speaker 1: to overstate the misdeeds that he committed, not just in

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Speaker 1: your case, but in many others. John, Can you tell

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Speaker 1: us about this Polonco character and what his history tells us.

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Speaker 1: And this is even before Chris ever had the misfortune

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Speaker 1: of coming on to his radar.

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Speaker 3: We didn't know about mister Polanco until we got involved

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Speaker 3: with Chris's case, of course, but I think we were

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Speaker 3: investigating that we had learned that he had had a

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Speaker 3: history of playing somewhat loose with the facts. I guess

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Speaker 3: you could say on some other cases.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean his name featured prominently and in the

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Speaker 1: most sinister ways in the cases of Alan Causey, Bruce Bowser,

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Speaker 1: Richard osase Edia, a Nigerian student who falsely confessed if.

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Speaker 3: I remember right. One of them was called the Yogurt

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Speaker 3: shop cases. I think he had been instrumental in creating

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Speaker 3: some false confessions in that case.

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Speaker 1: The infamous Yogurt Chop murders took place in December nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety one, where four girls were murdered and the crimate

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Speaker 1: remained unsolved for eight years, And that's when police announced

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Speaker 1: the rest of four suspects who had come under the

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Speaker 1: radar after very suspicious confessions that were very similar to

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Speaker 1: Chris's and that were not coincidentally conducted by Detective Polanco.

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Speaker 3: So we knew that he had some kind of history,

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Speaker 3: and we do know that he was in charge of

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Speaker 3: the case for Chris and led that interrogation. There were

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Speaker 3: other people in the room at the same time, but

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Speaker 3: I think he was the I think he called himself

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Speaker 3: the bogey man.

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Speaker 1: Let's just say that Chris, being sort of a mild

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Speaker 1: mannered honor student, was not prepared in any way when

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Speaker 1: he was interrogated by Detective Bilanco. Now let's go back

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Speaker 1: to the crime itself, Okay, because this crime I think

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Speaker 1: really shocked the local community, and brace yourself. On October

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Speaker 1: twenty fourth of nineteen eighty eight, a twenty year old

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Speaker 1: girl named Nancy the Priest was working alone in a

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Speaker 1: Pizza Hut restaurant in Austin, Texas, and it was during

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Speaker 1: her shift that the store was robbed. The Pizza Hut

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Speaker 1: was robbed, and she was tied up with her bra

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Speaker 1: raped and then shot in the head. Now, when this happened, you,

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Speaker 1: of course lived in the area. Where were you and

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Speaker 1: your co defendant, Richard Danziger I'm talking about, of course,

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Speaker 1: where were you, guys? And when did you first hear

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Speaker 1: about this?

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Speaker 2: Well, me and Richard worked at different pizza huts when

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Speaker 2: the crime happened. So when that crime happened, Richard was

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Speaker 2: late for a shift at his pizza hut. So they

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Speaker 2: called the apartment and I didn't answer the phone. One

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Speaker 2: of my other roommates censored it. You know, I heard

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Speaker 2: the phone, I rolled back to sleep, and then I

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Speaker 2: woke up and I turned on the news, and that's

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Speaker 2: when I saw the coverage. So I was shocked as

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Speaker 2: much as everybody else in Austin, and particularly that I

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Speaker 2: was an employee at another pizza hut.

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Speaker 1: And police they began investigating pizza hut workers because they believed,

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Speaker 1: I don't know whether they had reason to believe it,

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Speaker 1: but they did believe that a master key was used

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Speaker 1: to gain entry to the restaurant. And of course, where

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Speaker 1: this starts to, you know, really go downhill fast, is

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Speaker 1: that a few days later, an employee at the pizza

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Speaker 1: hut saw you, Chris and Richard, who was only an

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Speaker 1: eighteen year old kid at this time, right, eating pizza,

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Speaker 1: drinking beer in the restaurant and raising a toast, or

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Speaker 1: so they thought to the victim in this case, in

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Speaker 1: her honor. And you guys worked at different pizza huts

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Speaker 1: in the area, and so this was when detectives had

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Speaker 1: this sort of Eureka moment or whatever, and decided that

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Speaker 1: you must be good for it, because otherwise, why else

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Speaker 1: would you be acting this way. I mean, this is

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Speaker 1: obviously nothing like evidence. So what happened next?

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Speaker 2: Several days later, two Austin detectives went to the pizza

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Speaker 2: hut where I worked at in downtown Austin. It was

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Speaker 2: not Polanco. It was some white detective and this female

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Speaker 2: Espanily detective that showed up. They wanted to ask me

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Speaker 2: questions about a burgery, so they drove me to the

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Speaker 2: police station. They asked me some maybe two or three

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Speaker 2: questions about some burglary, which was nothing, but it didn't

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Speaker 2: take about five minutes, and then they shifted me to

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Speaker 2: what I now know is the interrogation room. After they left,

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Speaker 2: then barges in Hector Bolanco, and he looks me up

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Speaker 2: and down. Look, I mean, he looks me from head

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Speaker 2: to toe and he tells me, do you know what

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Speaker 2: they called me on street in Spanish? And I have

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Speaker 2: no idea, So that he tells me that they call

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Speaker 2: him the boogeyman. I guess he's trying to instill fear

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Speaker 2: in me. Then he starts asking me questions about the

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Speaker 2: pizza robbery, and I tell him I don't know anything

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Speaker 2: about it. And then he starts launching into this if

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Speaker 2: you know something about this crime or this murder or

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Speaker 2: this robbery, and if you don't cooperate with us, you're

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Speaker 2: going to get the death penalty. He started using the

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Speaker 2: death penalty from right off the top. If you don't

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Speaker 2: tell us, you're going to die. And I mean, it

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Speaker 2: was relentless, and I kept saying, I don't know what

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Speaker 2: you're talking about. If I knew what, I would certainly cooperate,

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Speaker 2: but I don't know anything. And this is a turgetion.

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Speaker 2: It took hours. He would walk out, and then another detective,

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Speaker 2: the poor good cop after Malaysia, so saying, hey, my

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Speaker 2: partners are hot head, just tell us what you know

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Speaker 2: and then you can go home. He walks out and

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Speaker 2: walks Polanco again starts threatening me with a death penalty.

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Speaker 2: At some point he walks out and a female spanded

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Speaker 2: detective and this is I think a couple of hours

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Speaker 2: into the interrogation, asked, what do you think I can

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Speaker 2: have an attorney? And she said no. She got rips

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Speaker 2: that you can't have one. So you're officially charged. So

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Speaker 2: we all know that that's not right. But at that time,

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Speaker 2: she walked out, and then Polanco walks back in starts

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Speaker 2: threatening me with a death penalty again. She grabbed my arm,

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Speaker 2: tap my arm, the needles are gonna go one of

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Speaker 2: those veins or something like that. I'm gonna make sure

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Speaker 2: I'm there to see it. And it took hours, and

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Speaker 2: at some point they just broke me down. Polanco had say,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm getting tired of your bullshit. I'm just

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Speaker 2: gonna put you in jail, and in there, you're going

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Speaker 2: to be fresh meat for the prisoners because you're young.

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Speaker 2: I know you don't have a record. He and you

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Speaker 2: had to have a record. When he turned prison house rate.

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Speaker 2: That was the end of my rope. I told him,

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Speaker 2: what do you want me to say? I wanted it over.

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Speaker 2: I just wanted to go home. That first interrogation, they

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Speaker 2: were fixated on Richard Danziger. They said, did Richard Danziger?

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Speaker 2: Did he come back and tell you? So the first

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Speaker 2: statement that they forced me into signing was that Richard

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Speaker 2: did it and he came home from the apartment and

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Speaker 2: told me.

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Speaker 1: And then they gave you a confession to sign. And

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Speaker 1: here's the crazy thing. They didn't even need to write

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Speaker 1: the confession because this Polanco, the detective, has used the

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Speaker 1: same exact confession on two previous suspects. All he was

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Speaker 1: doing was whiting out the names, just white it out

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Speaker 1: and then put in the name Chris o'choa sign here.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is madness, this is America, right.

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Speaker 2: And so they brought Richard and they said he had

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Speaker 2: to face's accuser. They took me to see him. Shortly

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Speaker 2: that after they pulled me out and then I asked,

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Speaker 2: can I go home now? And they said no, we're

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Speaker 2: afraid for your safety. He just gave a statement against Richard.

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Speaker 2: He could hurt you. We're going to put you up

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Speaker 2: at a hotel in Austin. Well on Quin mentioned the DNA,

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Speaker 2: some new science and you can tell them you're there.

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Speaker 1: You're not.

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Speaker 2: Said we need you to give blood samples, hair samples.

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Speaker 2: Of course, the DNA at the time and eighty eight

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Speaker 2: was not as advanced as it is now. But I said, sure,

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Speaker 2: if that's going to help you show that I wasn't there.

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Speaker 2: So they took me to the hospital. I gave them

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Speaker 2: blood samples, hair samples that I cooperated.

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Speaker 3: They did do a rape kid Unfortunately this was late eighties.

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Speaker 3: They did do some DNA analysis, However, it was not

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Speaker 3: the kind of DNA analysis that later proved Chris's innocence.

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Speaker 3: In Richard's innocence, it was a more primitive form called

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Speaker 3: d Q alpha, and it showed that one in six

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Speaker 3: Hispanic Americans could have done this, and Chris was among

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Speaker 3: the one in the six, and so they used that

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Speaker 3: as some degree of evidence. They also had a hair

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Speaker 3: that was found on the body of Nancy DePriest and

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Speaker 3: they looked through a microscope with that hair and they

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Speaker 3: said that is consistent with the hair of Richard. And

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Speaker 3: they made a big deal out of that, showing it

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Speaker 3: looks like his hair, it is his hair. And you know,

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Speaker 3: they didn't have the benefit of DNA analysis that hair,

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Speaker 3: which would later show that it excluded Richard. You know,

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Speaker 3: the technology improved later, but at the time they made

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Speaker 3: a bigger deal out of that hair than was justified.

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Speaker 1: So they're coercing you with threats of prison, rape, and

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Speaker 1: the death penalty while also using the junk science of

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Speaker 1: har microscopy, which don't even get me started on how

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Speaker 1: subjective and meaningless, utterly meaningless that is. But not only that,

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Speaker 1: they're using this primitive DNA testing, acting like being able

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Speaker 1: to say that you and the actual assailant fall into

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Speaker 1: the same sixteen percent of the Mexican population, which basically

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Speaker 1: comes down to about one in six Mexicans. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's unbelievable that this was even considered or ultimately past

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Speaker 1: as evidence. But okay, so now they've got the statement

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Speaker 1: about Richard out of you, but they're still only halfway done.

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Speaker 1: So it's a Friday, and they basically kidnapped you, call

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Speaker 1: it what it is, and put you up at a

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Speaker 1: hotel for the weekend. I mean, you could have left,

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Speaker 1: but you didn't know that, right, I mean, that's that's

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Speaker 1: another sick thing about this. And now Monday rolls around

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Speaker 1: and they've got even more dirty tricks up their sleeve.

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Speaker 2: So comes Monday, Holanko and the other detective Malaysia show

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Speaker 2: up to the hotel room take me. They want to

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Speaker 2: take me back to station to ask me more questions.

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Speaker 2: But then they said that they wanted me to take

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Speaker 2: a polygraph test. A lion took to polygraph test. They said,

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Speaker 2: I registered deception. I was an a kid. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: It was a stress test and not a light detective test.

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Speaker 2: They said we think you were in there.

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Speaker 3: I think the main purpose of a lie detective test

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Speaker 3: is whatever it might yield, they are going to go

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Speaker 3: back to the suspect and say, well, you failed it,

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Speaker 3: and now we have that against you, and it just

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Speaker 3: gives them a reason to say, well, I guess maybe

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Speaker 3: I should confess because apparently they think I was lying.

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Speaker 3: But part of their technique is to make lies about

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Speaker 3: the evidence they have, and they try to convince you

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Speaker 3: that they know you're guilty. Your only way out of

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Speaker 3: it is to confess. And I think when someone I

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Speaker 3: think it could be anybody, but especially young people or

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Speaker 3: people who are nai is confronted with a detective saying

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Speaker 3: we have evidence that isn't true, but you don't know that,

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Speaker 3: and your only way out of this is to confess,

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Speaker 3: and that's the only way your life is going to

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Speaker 3: be spared or you're not going to be thrown into

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Speaker 3: a jail cell as fresh meat.

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Speaker 1: And in this case, my understanding is not only did

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Speaker 1: they do all the things that you talked about, Chris,

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Speaker 1: but also Polanco threw a chair at you, showed you

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Speaker 1: photographs of death row where you're going to end up

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Speaker 1: if you didn't confess, and there's a quote from him

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Speaker 1: that sends the chills up my spine where he said, quote,

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Speaker 1: we're going to charge you with this crime, whether you

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Speaker 1: had anything to do with it or not, because this

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Speaker 1: is a real big case and they want somebody.

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Speaker 2: So now Polanco wants me to say that I was

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Speaker 2: in the Pizza Hut with Richard allegedly saying that I

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Speaker 2: and Richard rape Nancy the priest, and that we did

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Speaker 2: all kinds of horrible things. But so he started taping it.

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Speaker 2: He said, well, now, when you walked at the Pizza

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Speaker 2: Hunt with Richard, was there an item that what was

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Speaker 2: in there? I didn't know, and I would stop and stutter,

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Speaker 2: and he would say, well, was it there an apron there? Oh? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that was an apron. So he would stop the tape,

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Speaker 2: rewind it, and then I would repeat what he wanted

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Speaker 2: me to say, and he said, well, tell us what

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Speaker 2: color the april once as well? Black or red? I

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Speaker 2: don't know. I kept guessing the whole publish spectrum. So

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Speaker 2: I got it right. Then he would stop the tape,

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Speaker 2: rewind it and record it. You know, he will coach

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Speaker 2: me on what to say. So the tape of that

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Speaker 2: late statement he was feeding me all the details.

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Speaker 1: So the state offered to give you a life sentence.

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Speaker 1: What a great deal that is? Not for something for

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Speaker 1: doing nothing, for having a toast, basically right. So I

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Speaker 1: offered to give you a life sentence if you could

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Speaker 1: deplete guilty and testify against Richard. And your alternative, of course,

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Speaker 1: was to face the death penalty. So after two twelve

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Speaker 1: hour interrogation sessions, think about how long that is to

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Speaker 1: be stuck in an airless room. I'll talk to the

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Speaker 1: audience now. Of course, with these people who are literally

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Speaker 1: trying to take your life away from you. You signed

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Speaker 1: the confessions which were totally concocted by the police, with

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Speaker 1: the white out and the whole thing. I mean, did

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Speaker 1: you even have an attorney at this point.

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Speaker 2: When those statements are signed? I never had an attorney.

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Speaker 2: I didn't get an attorney until I was actually charged

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Speaker 2: and waned, and I believe a magistrate she asked me,

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Speaker 2: do you have an attorney, misscho So I do not.

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Speaker 2: I said, do you know what you're charged with? You

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Speaker 2: was shocked. Recess to court took me into her chambers

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Speaker 2: and I remember she calling somebody another daight. I don't

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Speaker 2: know what she called. She was said, why has this

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Speaker 2: man not been afforded an attorney yet? That's when the

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Speaker 2: attorney stepped in the defense attorneys. I was appointed defense

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Speaker 2: attorney and I told him exactly what I'm telling you,

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Speaker 2: how these statements came about. And she said, there's no

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Speaker 2: way an innocent person would give such a detailed confession.

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Speaker 2: So he didn't believe that. You know, they coerced me.

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Speaker 2: So at the next quarter appearance, I asked I wanted

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Speaker 2: to fire the attorney, then insteaded appointing another defense attorney

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Speaker 2: who had more experience, and I told him the same

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Speaker 2: story when I interviewed with him the first time, and

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Speaker 2: I said, isn't it your job through my innocence, you

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Speaker 2: should investigate this? He said, no, my job is to

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Speaker 2: save your life. In a way, he was right, but no,

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Speaker 2: your job is to prove innocence. First, my defense attorneys

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Speaker 2: did no investigation. You mentioned law enforcement had a theory

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Speaker 2: that a master key was used to get into the

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Speaker 2: pizza hut because there was no evidence of breaking of

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Speaker 2: an entry into the pizza hut. This pizza hut two doors.

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Speaker 2: I know the detective wanted me to say that we

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Speaker 2: had a master key to get in a pizza hut

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Speaker 2: and we came into a certain door. Right, I don't

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Speaker 2: know what door it was. But after John the Innis's

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Speaker 2: project investigated the whole thing, it turns out that there's

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Speaker 2: no way I could have gone through that door. That

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Speaker 2: polock hoomness is no way because that key didn't open

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Speaker 2: that door. There's no way because that door could not

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Speaker 2: be opened with any key. It was just jammed, had

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Speaker 2: to be opened from the inside.

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Speaker 1: Right. The classic hallmark of a false confession when the

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Speaker 1: facts of the crime scene don't even match the information

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Speaker 1: that they're feeding to.

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Speaker 2: You had, mister start. My defense attorneys gone and see

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Speaker 2: how wiable it is is go ask questions. The prosecutor

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Speaker 2: should have done that. Your job as an attorney is

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Speaker 2: to look at the conficion Does this really match the

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Speaker 2: evidence that these guys have? And they don't, But the

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Speaker 2: prosecute should be the one, Hey, I can't use this.

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Speaker 3: I think the defense attorneys looked at the confession and

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Speaker 3: they thought that's the end. There's no point in investigating

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Speaker 3: this any further. They didn't look into like, I wonder

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Speaker 3: if this confession could be suppressed because he did ask

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Speaker 3: for an attorney. They didn't look at that. They didn't

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Speaker 3: look at the alibi evidence that there was, they didn't

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Speaker 3: look at the physical evidence that there was. They just

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Speaker 3: saw the confession and said, well, that's he's going to

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Speaker 3: be convicted. So my job is to make sure he

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Speaker 3: doesn't get the death penalty. So we can do that

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Speaker 3: by having Chris plead guilty. And you know, when your

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Speaker 3: attorney's telling you that Chris believed that. And when I

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Speaker 3: called the defense attorney when we were investigating it, this

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Speaker 3: is twelve years later, we asked him what he had

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Speaker 3: done and he said like, well, did Chris tell you

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Speaker 3: that his fingerprints were found on the gun and things

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Speaker 3: like that? And I said no, So I go back

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Speaker 3: to Chris and say, Chris, you didn't tell us your

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Speaker 3: fingerprints were on the gun. And of course it turns

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Speaker 3: out that that was just a lie, or that he

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Speaker 3: had forgotten that Polanco and made up his own evidence

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Speaker 3: to make him think that Chris was guilty. There were

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Speaker 3: no fingerp rents on any gun, so he just I

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Speaker 3: think early on, decided my job is to keep him

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Speaker 3: from being executed, and therefore we're going to push this

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Speaker 3: flea through and get him life in prison. And that's

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Speaker 3: exactly what they did.

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Speaker 2: One of the reasons I essentially pled guilty after a

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Speaker 2: year in jail was because apparently my defense attorney and

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Speaker 2: I don't know who else was calling my mom pretty

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Speaker 2: much every day telling her that she should get me

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Speaker 2: to plead guilty or she's going to lose her son.

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Speaker 2: You're going to murder her son. So essentially my mom

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Speaker 2: got to the point of a stroke, was brought on

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Speaker 2: by stress, and at that point I called whoever I

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Speaker 2: had to call, I'll plead guilty. I played guilty for

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Speaker 2: my mom. So at that point, the DA tells me, okay,

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Speaker 2: we're going to charge you with rape and they're trying

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Speaker 2: to get Richard on capitol murder.

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Speaker 1: So at this point your fate was sealed. Chris. You

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Speaker 1: had nobody to help you. The system had failed you

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Speaker 1: and failed as the priest as well, and the public

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Speaker 1: and her family and everybody else, and you were doomed.

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Speaker 1: Part of your deal was that you were basically compelled

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Speaker 1: to testify against Danziger. Right you were convicted, as was

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Speaker 1: Danziger in February nineteen ninety and both of you were

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Speaker 1: sent to life in prison.

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Speaker 2: The moment to gab Will hit any sentencement. It came

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Speaker 2: crashing down. I was like, I wasn't shocked. First night

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Speaker 2: in the Texas prison when they slammed door shut, the

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Speaker 2: metal clangs once that door slammed. That was when night crap.

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Speaker 2: I mean here now.

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Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by global law firm Greenberg Traig

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Speaker 1: through its pro bono program, Greenberg Traig leverages it's more

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Speaker 1: than twenty four hundred lawyers across forty two offices to

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00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,679
Speaker 1: serve the greater good of our communities and provide equal

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00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 1: access to justice for all. In the field of criminal justice,

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00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:13,440
Speaker 1: Greenberg Trowing attorneys have exonerated in freedomand in Philadelphia, represent

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00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,639
Speaker 1: numerous individuals previously sentenced to life for crimes committed as

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00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,680
Speaker 1: juveniles and resentencing hearings, and receive the American part Association's

406
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,200
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one Exceptional Service Award for Death Penalty Representation

407
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 1: for their work on five death penalty cases. GT is

408
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 1: reimagining what big law can be because a more just

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00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 1: world only happens by design.

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Speaker 2: As time went on, it felt like the world got

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Speaker 2: about me. You know, fewer people right, And I know

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Speaker 2: I tried my best to survive, and I know Richard

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Speaker 2: had it worse. But I know at some point I

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Speaker 2: had already done ten years. I used to see the newspaper,

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Speaker 2: my hotel newspaper. All my friends from high school had kids,

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Speaker 2: had wives, had careers, and I felt like such a

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Speaker 2: bad through no fall of my home. So Christmas Eve,

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Speaker 2: I didn't get a Christmas card that year. On time,

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Speaker 2: I had lost hope. So I made up my mind.

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Speaker 2: I went up to my cell and I broke open

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Speaker 2: a razor blade because that night I was going through

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Speaker 2: this pain. That alcohol drug doesn't get rid of the pain.

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Speaker 2: So I wanted to run it up my arm so

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Speaker 2: that I could bleed out and just send it. But

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Speaker 2: at that point I remember what the nuns told me

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Speaker 2: in Tetholic school, that I didn't have the right to

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Speaker 2: take anybody's life, not even my own, because God gave

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Speaker 2: it to me. So by through the razor blade and

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Speaker 2: I flushed it and I got through that night. Somehow

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Speaker 2: I grabbed onto faith the way I survived. I went

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Speaker 2: to school. Music was my escape. That's what got me

432
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:09,160
Speaker 2: through prison, school, Faith and the radio.

433
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 1: What I think we have to shine a light on

434
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 1: is the fact that behind the scenes and unbeknownst to you.

435
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 1: In February of nineteen ninety eight, a man named Aquem

436
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 1: Joseph Marino, a convict who was serving three life sentences

437
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 1: in the Texas Prison for aggravated robbery, wrote a letter

438
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 1: to the governor, who was George W. Bush at that time,

439
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 1: and mister Marino had become a born again Christian who,

440
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: as part of his AA and Narcotics Anonymous program, had

441
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: been obligated to confess. Right. It's part of the cleansing,

442
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,120
Speaker 1: the twelve step program, right. And as part of that,

443
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 1: he felt obligated to confess to the murder that he

444
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 1: had committed, which was the one that you were charged

445
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: with of mis the Priest. His letter began it was

446
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 1: quote remurder confession, you know, ra Colan murder confession. In

447
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,639
Speaker 1: the letter, mister Marino said, quote my conscience sickens me.

448
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:03,679
Speaker 1: End quote, and he went on to say that he

449
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 1: alone raped and murdered ms the Priest, that you and

450
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: Danziger were not involved. Quote I tell you this, sir,

451
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,679
Speaker 1: I did this awful crime and I was alone. Now

452
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:19,199
Speaker 1: Here's where it gets even deeper, okay. Marino said that

453
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 1: evidence tying him to the crime and him alone, including

454
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: the victim's keys could be found at his parents home.

455
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 1: He said that he had begun writing and confessing to

456
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 1: the police years earlier, back in ninety six, as well

457
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: as a newspaper and even the ACLU, but after getting

458
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: no response, he was now going all the way to

459
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 1: the governor governor push to take action. After the police

460
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,360
Speaker 1: received another letter from Marino that contained a detailed description

461
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 1: of the crime scene, they finally began reinvestigating. And when

462
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: they went to Marino's parents' home, what did they find?

463
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 1: Guess what? They found the keys, as he said they would,

464
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: as well as the other evidence, including bank ouches and

465
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: a pistol. So this should have been at that very moment,

466
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 1: this should be over. They should have come right to

467
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 1: the prison apologize to you and to Danziger. I would

468
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: say they should have just yanked you right out of

469
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:15,880
Speaker 1: there that day, but you know that's not how it works.

470
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 1: But that process should have been started immediately with urgency,

471
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 1: because every day in that prison was risking your life

472
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 1: and his and his case, he almost lost his life.

473
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 1: But finally they went to mister Danziger and to you,

474
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 1: and unfortunately Danzeger had sustained permanent brain damage and had

475
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: injuries while he was in prison and was now in

476
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: a mental institution. A tragedy upon another tragedy. But you, Chris,

477
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: at that time, told the same story that you had

478
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 1: told the trial.

479
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 2: At that point I knew that there was something going

480
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 2: on in the case. At some point I ended the

481
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 2: interview saying, look, I did this crime. Let me do

482
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 2: my time. And the only reason I did that to

483
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,400
Speaker 2: the cops told him that is I wanted to throw

484
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 2: him off a scent because I thought, if these guys

485
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 2: sniff it, I'm claiming innocent. What if there's evidence of

486
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 2: innocence and they go destroy like chelsh agridem should kind

487
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 2: of you know, they were trying to link me and

488
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 2: Richard to a king Reno.

489
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 3: I think they just could not get it through their

490
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 3: heads that it's possible that Chris could have lied in

491
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 3: the confession. You would never confess to a murder he

492
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 3: didn't do. And so their theory when Marino came on

493
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 3: the scene was that, Okay, it must have been three

494
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 3: of you, and we know Chris confessed, so we know

495
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 3: he's did it. We know Danziger did it. So if

496
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 3: Marino's confessing and he's got the gun, and he's got

497
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 3: the key. I think their mindset was now that Marino's

498
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 3: saying he did it, Okay, it must have been the three.

499
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, they showed me photo lineups.

500
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 2: I mean, I recognize myself in one and I recognized

501
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 2: denzigrin the other one. But then they showed me another lineup.

502
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 2: I guess we Marino. At the time, I didn't know

503
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 2: anybody who was confessed. I had no idea. They asked

504
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 2: me why, and I didn't recognize anybody on that photo.

505
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 2: I guess Marina was in there. And now that I recall,

506
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 2: the Texas ranger and the cop looked at themselves when

507
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 2: they saw I did wreck because Marino.

508
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 3: And they did do some investigation on that to say

509
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 3: were they ever in the same prison together? Did they

510
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 3: have any communication with each other? And all that came

511
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 3: out that no, there's no way that those people had

512
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 3: ever interacted or intersected in their lives.

513
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 2: So immediately after that, there was a friend of mine

514
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 2: who was leaving on parole, and I told him a

515
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 2: little bit about what was going on in the case, but

516
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 2: I told him that I needed him to reach out

517
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 2: to Barry Scheck and Innes's project in New York, and

518
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 2: he did I think he mailed them, and I think, well,

519
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,959
Speaker 2: you know, they have a lot of cases, the backlogs.

520
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 2: So they emailed some addresses of innocence projects at that

521
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 2: time in the country. But on that list that they said,

522
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 2: I saw the Wisconsin Innoces Project and I don't know

523
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 2: why I circled that Wisconsin. I had no clue even

524
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:02,719
Speaker 2: where Wisconsin was on the map. I just circled it

525
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 2: and I wrote a letter. A couple of weeks later,

526
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 2: I get a phone call from Wisconsin and it's project.

527
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 2: It took my case.

528
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: This is now June ninety nine, and this is when,

529
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 1: of course, in steps the Wisconsin Innocence Project be headed

530
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: by my friend Keith Findley, who people have heard his

531
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: name on the podcast. He's got an incredible reputation, has

532
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 1: done incredible work, and of course John Pray.

533
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 3: Wisconsin's the project did get Chris's letter. The thing that

534
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 3: grabbed our attention was that there was evidence taken from

535
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 3: the rape kit. Well, now we have some new DNA technology,

536
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 3: we could re examine the DNA evidence to see if

537
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 3: Richard and Chris could be excluded. So what we did

538
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 3: is sent a letter to the authorities in Texas saying

539
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 3: we are representing Chris or we're looking into Chris's case,

540
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 3: and we want you to preserve any kind of evidence

541
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 3: that may have existed. The authorities in Texas were cooperative

542
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 3: and let's yeah, let's do tests as evidence. And so

543
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 3: we didn't have to fight for that and didn't take

544
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 3: too long to have the testing exclude Chris and Richard

545
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 3: and then match Marino. So at that point the case

546
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 3: became not too difficult because they realized they got the

547
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 3: wrong guy. But like I said, they still had to

548
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 3: investigate whether there was a connection between Marino and Chris

549
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 3: and Richard.

550
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: Right, But you and the wisconsinenci's project, knowing that you

551
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: could have been up against a well an unscrupulous prosecutor,

552
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: you continue to investigate. What else did you find out?

553
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 3: So what we were doing in the meantime, once we

554
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 3: had the DNA test, as we were looking at all

555
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 3: other aspects of the case and calling other witnesses. There

556
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 3: was one particular witness who said that the police had

557
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 3: threatened to take her son away if she didn't testify

558
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 3: in a certain way, and so there were all kinds

559
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 3: of things like that. The medical examiner. It was very interesting.

560
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 3: The medical examiner was privy to Chris's confession and so

561
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,959
Speaker 3: they knew the kind of injuries. Well, one of the

562
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,239
Speaker 3: things they said in the confession was there had been

563
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 3: an anal rape. So they said, okay, let's look for

564
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 3: anal tears or evidence of an anal rape. Well, it

565
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 3: turns out once the confession is known to be false,

566
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 3: because the DNA proves its false, you go back to

567
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 3: the medical examiner. He says, oh, upon second look, I

568
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 3: guess that was a terror caused by the instruments that

569
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 3: were used to look in that area instead of oh,

570
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 3: this is actual evidence of a rape. So you know,

571
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 3: when you're doing a medical examination and you have a

572
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 3: predisposed notion that, oh, this was from an anal rape

573
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 3: because that's what the confession said, well then you kind

574
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 3: of see what you want to see. So there are

575
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 3: all kinds of things that we could look at later

576
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 3: that once you know that that's a false confession, the

577
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 3: house of cards falls quickly.

578
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: And Chris, you had mentioned the part of your false

579
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: confession about the alleged master key and how the door

580
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 1: was actually jammed. It couldn't have been opened by any

581
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 1: key right, So just one of the many inconvenient ways

582
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: in which your false confession didn't match reality. What else

583
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: was learned about how Marino gained entry to the pizza hut?

584
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 2: What was later found out is that Marino said that

585
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 2: as the priest, lettermakers key disguise themselves a repair man

586
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 2: or something like that.

587
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 3: Really, a cursory examination of the evidence, the alibis, the

588
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 3: physical evidence the keys, would have yielded pretty quickly that

589
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 3: this has to be a false confession. But that wasn't

590
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 3: in the repertoire of the attorneys, the police, the judges.

591
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 3: No one was thinking of false confession as possible. You

592
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 3: wouldn't confess to something you didn't do.

593
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 1: So it turned out that the DNA evidence excluded Richard

594
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 1: and Chris, but included Marino, and now it was going

595
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 1: to be respected but confused by the false confession. The

596
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 1: States still wanted to make sure that there was no

597
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 1: connection between the guys and Marino before finally letting Chris

598
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 1: and Richard go.

599
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 3: So that took him longer than we were comfortable with.

600
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:24,720
Speaker 3: It took him a few months. Where Chris is sitting

601
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,839
Speaker 3: in prison where everybody knows he didn't do it. So

602
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,839
Speaker 3: that was agonizing for Chris. I know it was agonizing

603
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,879
Speaker 3: for us. But after a few months of figuring out

604
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 3: whether any connections at all, they finally agreed to throw

605
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 3: out this case for both Richard and Chris. So in

606
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,359
Speaker 3: the fall of two thousand, I think we were all

607
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 3: certain this was going to happen. We had the agreement

608
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,439
Speaker 3: of the DA, we knew he would be getting out,

609
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 3: but it was agonizing waiting for several months for the

610
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 3: actual date. And I just remember being terrified that Chris

611
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 3: is going to be assaulted by someone else in prison,

612
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,399
Speaker 3: or something's going to happen, and what are we waiting for?

613
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 3: But we just couldn't get it done until January of

614
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 3: two thousand and one, and that was That was a

615
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 3: big day in Chris's life, in all of our lives,

616
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 3: and it was quite a sensation in Austin. It was

617
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 3: a very exciting day with a packed court room and

618
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 3: dozens of news people and photographers.

619
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 2: I remember vividly when I was they said I was

620
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 2: free to leave. I guess I'm shocked the bailiff had

621
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 2: to tell you to show show you know you can

622
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 2: walk out the door. And I remember going on to

623
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:53,359
Speaker 2: see a cameras and at hearing my mom was there

624
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 2: and I became very good friends. Well Ansis project did

625
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 2: with the mother of net See the Priests, Jeanette Pop.

626
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 2: I got to speak to her. I got my hunger.

627
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 2: I you know, was I guess bittersweet that I got up,

628
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 2: but you know her daughter let's gone. But I remember

629
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,840
Speaker 2: she was happy for me, and she gave me a

630
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 2: welcome home gift. He watched present time meets nothing and

631
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 2: there's no time. She said, Now time matters to you.

632
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 2: I had support from my family. I think Dannis was

633
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 2: project and John for I did an excellent job of

634
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 2: keeping me grounded. Jumping really forward to just to say

635
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 2: how instrumental John has been in my life. I know

636
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 2: when I got accepted to law school in Wisconsin, I

637
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 2: went up there to try to find an apartment, and

638
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 2: you know, I had a lot of advice from mother's mentors.

639
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 2: But when I went to get my first apartment in Madison,

640
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 2: I remember John Pray went with me. He read over

641
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 2: the lease, he looked sculpted out walking distance from the

642
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 2: law school and from the bars, because I did, in

643
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 2: turn with a judge before I went to law school,

644
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 2: and he said, you know in law school, you're probably

645
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 2: going to drink, so I would suggest getting an apartment

646
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,919
Speaker 2: walking distance to the bars so you can stumble home.

647
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 2: But John was very, very instrumental in helping me.

648
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 3: One other thing I wanted to double back on. I'm

649
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 3: really glad Chris brought up Jeanette Pop, but I think

650
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 3: it bears just a little bit more explanation. Janette Pop

651
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 3: is the mother of the victim of Nancy DePriest in

652
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 3: this case, she very early on identified with Chris, and

653
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 3: one might say, well, why would she do that. Chris

654
00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:00,040
Speaker 3: was convicted of killing her daughter, but she recognized that

655
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 3: it was a false confession. And what pained her so

656
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 3: much was that for twelve years, while Chris was in prison,

657
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 3: she was under the mistaken belief that her daughter had

658
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 3: been tortured, had been raped multiple times in this restaurant.

659
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 3: And that was the story from the confession that she believed.

660
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 3: And it turns out when we got the true story,

661
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 3: what came. Marino said, A murder is a murder, and

662
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 3: that can't be sugarcoated. But the torture, the multiple rapes,

663
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 3: did not occur. It was a shot to the back

664
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 3: of the head. And so this suffering that she had

665
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 3: lived with and thought of her daughter's last hour of

666
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 3: life of being an utter hell was what tortured her.

667
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 3: And when she realized that it's because of this coerced

668
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 3: false confession that made her believe that, you know, it

669
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 3: just it just was such a relief to her that

670
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 3: her daughter had not undergone the kinds of things that

671
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 3: had been coerced from that confession. And that's one reason

672
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 3: why Jeanette pop was such a strong ally of Chris

673
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:14,720
Speaker 3: and Richard.

674
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: So, Chris, as we wind down the show here, is

675
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 1: there anything you want to ask our audience, anything they

676
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 1: can do for or with you, or an issue that

677
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 1: you'd like to highlight.

678
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 2: I think my biggest thing is donating to the Wisconsin

679
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 2: Insterest Project. They're the reason why I'm here outside. But

680
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 2: right now, what's on the forefront of my mind is

681
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 2: the Melissa Lucille case out of Texas. When I saw

682
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 2: that documentary, I just I got floored. She's innocent, plain

683
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 2: and simple. Support. Melissa sees she's got just days till

684
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 2: she's executed. She's murdered. I'm not going to say executed, murdered.

685
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,399
Speaker 2: That's what I asked the people to watch that documentary.

686
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 2: Donate bring away as the social media right now, there's

687
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 2: a petition that was sent to the governor or clemency

688
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 2: from Alissa Luzio for pressure on Texas too. It really

689
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 2: really irritates me and upsets me. This happened in two

690
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:19,280
Speaker 2: thousand and seven. Texas, the whole country at two thousand

691
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:23,879
Speaker 2: and seven. They know what mistakes they've done, what they

692
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 2: do to people, and yet Texas has not learned their

693
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 2: lesson at all, and they don't care all the pain

694
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 2: that we exigneries have gone through. No, we testify in

695
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 2: Congress and we do stuff like this so that others

696
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 2: won't go through it. Yet Texas assists of doing the

697
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 2: same thing over and over and over again. And until

698
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 2: we get rid of these people working the system, our

699
00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 2: system is not going to work. It works if you

700
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 2: have people that are doing it for the right reasons,

701
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,760
Speaker 2: not to get power, not to get money for apparently

702
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 2: from the Melissable seal case, I see that's pretty honous.

703
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:15,800
Speaker 2: It was all about power and position.

704
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 1: Chris, we'll have the same action steps here that we

705
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 1: did last week for Melissa. She's scheduled for execution. I

706
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 1: hate saying these words on April twenty seventh. This is

707
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 1: not a drill, this is real, so please join us

708
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 1: in saving her from imminent danger. We'll have the Wisconsin

709
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 1: Intersce project linked in the bio as well. Please donate

710
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 1: to help them continue the great work that they do,

711
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 1: just like they did for Chris and so many others.

712
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 1: And now, as we go to the closing of our show,

713
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,399
Speaker 1: which is called Closing Arguments, this is where, of course

714
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,280
Speaker 1: I'm gonna thank you for joining us today and sharing

715
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 1: Chris's story with us. And now I'm just going to

716
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 1: turn my microphone off, leave my headphones on, and just

717
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 1: focus on the sound of your voice. Is you leave

718
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 1: us with any and all final thoughts you want to

719
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 1: share now, John, no offense, but we're going to save

720
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 1: the best for last. And of course our guest of honor,

721
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:11,439
Speaker 1: Chris o'choa, is the man, so please start it off

722
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:14,399
Speaker 1: for us and then let Chris take us out.

723
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 3: Well, I don't know how long you want me to

724
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 3: go on. I could go on a long time about this,

725
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 3: but I'll keep it reasonable. It's an extraordinary story in

726
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 3: one way, you look at what happened. On the other hand,

727
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 3: it's not unique. This happens with too much frequency, and

728
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 3: if we don't learn from these situations, then we're destined

729
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 3: to continue to repeat them. So it's an extraordinary story.

730
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 3: It shows the weakness of confessions that they can be false.

731
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 3: It shows the weakness of defense attorneys who don't do

732
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 3: their job seriously. But it's more than that. It's a

733
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:57,959
Speaker 3: testament to the strength of Chris Ajo, who endured hell

734
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:03,479
Speaker 3: for twelve years, the hell of the interrogation room, those

735
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 3: four days, the hell of going through a trial, and

736
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 3: then the hell of twelve years of incarceration and then

737
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 3: you get out. He could have given up, but what

738
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:17,840
Speaker 3: does he do. He decides to get his education completed.

739
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 3: He finished his undergraduate degree, then he came to Wisconsin

740
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 3: law school, went through three years of very hard, difficult work,

741
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 3: worked in a district attorney's office for a time, worked

742
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 3: with a Wisconsin innocence project. He really endured. I suppose

743
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 3: you could say, hey, if you can get through prison,

744
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,919
Speaker 3: you can get through law school. And Chris endured. He's

745
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 3: continued to show his dedication to public service and making

746
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,800
Speaker 3: sure these types of things don't happen. So the whole

747
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:50,879
Speaker 3: thing is really a tribute to Chris and his amazing

748
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 3: spirit and energy to endure and make life better for

749
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 3: the rest of us.

750
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 2: Thank you, John, I said earlier, you know, for the

751
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 2: Innocence Project, John Pray and the Gousninesss projects around the country. Justice,

752
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 2: true justice, wouldn't be accomplished. What I see is tragic

753
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 2: was happening in the law enforcement currently. I don't know

754
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 2: where the disconnect is between law enforcement and normal citizens.

755
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 2: When I was exonerated, right before I walked out of

756
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:38,280
Speaker 2: prisoner or I don't know what, shortly before, my Texas

757
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 2: Attorney Bill Allison told me, look your case, the justice

758
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 2: system fell apart at every angle. Everything failed you, and

759
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 2: people are going to get scared, even people that don't

760
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 2: get in trouble, they're going to lose faith in the system.

761
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 2: And when people lose faith in the system, chaos happens.

762
00:44:58,200 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 2: And he said, it would be good if you would

763
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 2: come out and talk that the system's not bad. You

764
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 2: got to inform it and there's a lot of things

765
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 2: that needs to be done so that it worked the

766
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:10,320
Speaker 2: way it was intended to work. But he said, but

767
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 2: you don't have to. You've already done enough, You've done time.

768
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 2: You can walk away from this. You don't and anybody

769
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 2: any faith. So I decided that I would start advocating

770
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 2: for the system because in the end it was a

771
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 2: judge that it was a court that got me exonerated

772
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:30,239
Speaker 2: and released me. But me and John Pray have talked

773
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,919
Speaker 2: to law enforcement. I mean, we have talked to these

774
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:38,360
Speaker 2: guys and academies that don't beat up the Look, you

775
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 2: gotta be real careful in your investigations because once you

776
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 2: said those recommended charges of the DA, you're already skewing

777
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 2: the ball. The defense attorney will start looking at at

778
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 2: a certain way if you're accusing something that you didn't do,

779
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:58,440
Speaker 2: but you're just the mere accusations, that will take a

780
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 2: snowball effect. And I personally have told law enforcement, you

781
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 2: guys have a big job to do, but you guys

782
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 2: can't be rushing what you do. You gotta be careful

783
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 2: because your people, they're not gonna trust you anymore. If

784
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 2: these are realnful convictions, keep rapping, they're gonna lose shut.

785
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 2: But fast forward to George Floyd. That only exposed what

786
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 2: all of us then advocate for wrongfully convicted for justice

787
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 2: and only confirmed what we already know. These cops beat

788
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 2: killed the man on camera and the only reason we

789
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 2: know because we have video. But now you see in

790
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 2: the news officer response to a call, he gets shot.

791
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 2: And now the law enforcement is crying all they're attacking us,

792
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 2: but they failed to realize they're the reason that that

793
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 2: is happening, because society has lost all faith and trust

794
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 2: in law enforcement. Now you have chaos and the only

795
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,280
Speaker 2: mess I got law enforcement. You got to get it together.

796
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 2: Stop blaming somebody else. I'm speechless in a sense. And

797
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 2: it hurts all of us. Ex reaes over one hundred.

798
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 2: How many of us are there now in the thousands,

799
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:38,839
Speaker 2: so that law enforcement would get direct together, courts, prosecutor.

800
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 2: It has gotten worse, so our suffering essentially has been

801
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 2: in vain the evidence system. Listen, will see it is

802
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 2: still happening. I hope that the public. Hey, let's start

803
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 2: electing DA's that are going to do right thing and

804
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 2: start getting police chiefs that are going to do the writing.

805
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 2: I'm not advocating for not arresting folks. You know you

806
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:15,399
Speaker 2: still have your un going to rust back people. There's

807
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 2: some people in prison that I met that I don't

808
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 2: want my family around them. Well let's get it right.

809
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to

810
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:34,760
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn, and Kevin Wartis,

811
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 1: with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production

812
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:41,320
Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

813
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,

814
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at

815
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On

816
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both

817
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason Flam. Wrongful Conviction is

818
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,319
Speaker 1: a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with

819
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:08,920
Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one