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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a dad's desperate search and

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Speaker 1: at this hour is a tic talk girl actually missing

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Speaker 1: Ava Grace, aged six. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This

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Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us.

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Speaker 2: Search for a six year old Ava Grace Baldwin and

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Speaker 2: her mother, Katherine Baldwin is cold from the very beginning

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Speaker 2: and gets even colder when Catherine Baldwin's fourd escape is

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Speaker 2: found abandoned in a parking lot on Whippy Road in

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Speaker 2: San Antonio. David Hopper is awarded soul custody and a

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Speaker 2: felony warrant issued for the arrest of the alleged abductor.

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Speaker 3: While Ava Grace's father, David Hopper believes his daughter is alive,

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Speaker 3: family do not concur they haven't seen or heard from

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Speaker 3: Ava since twenty fifteen and believe they're dead. Hopper believes

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Speaker 3: they're alive in hiding.

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Speaker 4: She has family in Texas, Oklahoma, California, Florida, and Illinois,

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Speaker 4: so that's kind of what we're thinking. She might be

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Speaker 4: hiding out or around that area, and we believe that

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Speaker 4: there are people here in the San Antonio area that

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Speaker 4: helped her get out of the state, so there's somebody

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Speaker 4: there that knows where she's at.

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Speaker 1: Is this beautiful little girl, Ava Grace still alive? Her

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Speaker 1: father insists, yes, she is. Is she being kept in hiding?

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Speaker 1: And if so, why this? As conspiracy theories emerge, identifying

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Speaker 1: the little girl as a TikTok star joining me in

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Speaker 1: All Star panel. But first to a very special guest

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Speaker 1: joining us tonight. It's Avia Grace's father, David Hopper, and

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Speaker 1: with him Tina Hopper Fulbright, Avia Grace's auntie.

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Speaker 5: To both of you, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 5: You know, David.

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Speaker 1: Hopper, you were blessed with a little girl, a beautiful

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Speaker 1: little girl, and for six years she was in your life.

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine taking one step without.

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Speaker 5: My daughter and my son in my life.

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Speaker 1: And I've got to hear, how have you managed to

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Speaker 1: keep going without Ava Grace.

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Speaker 6: It's it's a battle every day.

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Speaker 7: I have a good support team with my family's behind

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Speaker 7: me kind of keep it going.

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Speaker 6: My faith in God and believing his promises and just

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Speaker 6: there's times you.

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Speaker 7: Have to remove yourself from the case itself and just

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Speaker 7: have hope.

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Speaker 6: So that's what I do.

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Speaker 1: Why are you convinced, mister Hopper that Ava Grace is

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Speaker 1: still alive.

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Speaker 7: Because of Katie's background, she was her and her two

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Speaker 7: brothers were hit out from her family also by her dad,

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Speaker 7: and they were hit out for sixteen years. So it's

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Speaker 7: a learned behavior and I just kind of feel in

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Speaker 7: my heart that that's what's going on here. I think

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Speaker 7: that not only that, but with her family not helping

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Speaker 7: searching for them and not being involved in the case,

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Speaker 7: it just kind of just something I feel in my heart.

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Speaker 6: Someone knows where she's at and she's alive.

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Speaker 7: If her dad could do it and get away with

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Speaker 7: it for sixteen years, Like I said, it's a learned behavior,

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Speaker 7: and I think that's what's happening now.

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Speaker 1: Joining me in All Star Panel, but straight out to

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Speaker 1: veteran trial lawyer Darryl Cohen. Former felony prosecutor in Inner

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Speaker 1: City Atlanta, Fulton County, now defense attorney and civil attorney.

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Speaker 1: You can find them on Facebook. Darryl be co and

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Speaker 1: Darryl thank you for being with us. Did you hear

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Speaker 1: what mister Hopper David just said. He goes in my heart,

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Speaker 1: I know she's still alive now, Darryl, you and I

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Speaker 1: practiced in Inner City Fulton County for many, many years,

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Speaker 1: and they're certainly not a lack of business.

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Speaker 5: I can't even count the number of trials.

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Speaker 1: I've tried to make a list, but there are too

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Speaker 1: many to really count, much less the number of cases

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Speaker 1: we investigated with a.

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Speaker 5: Staggering case load.

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Speaker 1: Darryl, when a witness or victim's family says, I feel

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Speaker 1: in my heart, A lot of people discount that I

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Speaker 1: do not. I do not discount it because so many

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Speaker 1: times has been proven true. So when he says, and

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Speaker 1: many people may say it's wishful thinking she's not alive,

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Speaker 1: But when he says, he's carrying on the search because

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Speaker 1: he knows one hundred percent in his heart, Ava Grace

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Speaker 1: is alive and in hiding.

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Speaker 5: I believe in Darryl.

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Speaker 8: Nancy, there's more to it than just being in his heart.

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Speaker 8: He's utilizing logic. If one person was able to hide

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Speaker 8: for one six sixteen years, then what he is saying,

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Speaker 8: I believe, based upon what has happened before, that she

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Speaker 8: is alive and in hiding unbeknownst to her because mom

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Speaker 8: is keeping her hidden, and that in my view.

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Speaker 1: Is look at the screen, Can I see that video

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Speaker 1: one more time? Of Ava Grace in the car, Darryl Cohen,

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Speaker 1: how many videos have I taken of the chill in

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Speaker 1: the car, the twins singing and talking and saying all

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Speaker 1: kind of crazy things. I mean, look at her, she

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Speaker 1: doesn't even have all of her grown up, her adult

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Speaker 1: teeth yet.

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Speaker 5: I mean, this guts apparent.

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Speaker 1: I mean a visceral cut to see these videos. And

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Speaker 1: we're getting these videos from the Hopper family. I mean, David,

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Speaker 1: how many times have you looked at these and looked

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Speaker 1: at these and looked at these over and over and

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Speaker 1: over a little Eva Grace.

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Speaker 7: Too many, too many times? Say you've got to learn

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Speaker 7: to distance yourself from it at times.

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Speaker 5: You know what, David, My husband once had a closet.

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Speaker 5: He once had a closet full of.

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Speaker 1: Clothes, clothes and shoes and all this stuff. No more,

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Speaker 1: you know what that closet now is the whole thing. Albums,

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Speaker 1: hand made albums of the twins by me. And yes,

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Speaker 1: I go back and look at them all the time, right,

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Speaker 1: I look at them all the time.

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Speaker 5: I can't. I can't help it.

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Speaker 1: Now I have the phone, of course, so I can

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Speaker 1: scroll through and look at them. When you look at

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Speaker 1: all of these videos and pictures of your little girl.

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Speaker 5: What goes through your mind?

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Speaker 7: David pain Penis, Uh, and I said, hope, there's days

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Speaker 7: I have good days.

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Speaker 6: There's days.

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Speaker 7: Uh, you know it's wat I remember too, like right

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Speaker 7: now that's kind of sad on the videos. Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 7: missed out on her entire life. And Uh, that's all

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Speaker 7: I've ever wonder was a family and uh, a child.

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Speaker 7: And when you have it and it's rocked from you,

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Speaker 7: it just leaves an aptiness in your heart that nothing

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Speaker 7: can feel that voiant. So but at the same time,

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Speaker 7: it makes me smile because I see how beautiful she is.

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Speaker 6: I do have that hope that I'll be reunited with

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Speaker 6: her again.

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Speaker 1: So that day when a car, a Ford Escape is

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Speaker 1: found abandoned in a parking lot on Whitby Road in

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Speaker 1: San Antonio, that car wasn't left there by chance. That

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Speaker 1: car was left in that location for a reason. I

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Speaker 1: want to think through this, David Hopper, Why do you

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Speaker 1: believe Baldwin's car was left in that location to be found?

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Speaker 6: Really? I don't know on that. There's all sorts of

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Speaker 6: speculations on that.

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Speaker 7: I just I think because she had help, because she

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Speaker 7: used to do she'd go to the hookah bars and

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Speaker 7: stuff like that, and as we invested Denarlu investigation, we

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Speaker 7: found out that there was one here by there, So

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Speaker 7: I kind of feel like there were some people in

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Speaker 7: the San Antonio area that that helped her came out

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Speaker 7: of if you also have found out that there's not

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Speaker 7: a lot of cameras around there, so it was easy

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Speaker 7: to get in and out. So to me, I just

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Speaker 7: doue that she had help getting out of town. That's

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Speaker 7: where they pick up at.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you're not making me feel any better, David by

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Speaker 1: saying that mom visited the hookah bars all the time.

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Speaker 1: The abandoned car the ford escaped left clearly so it

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Speaker 1: would be found to send what message tonight? Where is

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Speaker 1: Ava Grace? And what does TikTok have to do with this?

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Speaker 1: If anything? After finding the vehicle abandoned, it gets worse.

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Speaker 5: Listen.

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Speaker 9: Catherine Baldwin has a history of alcohol and prescription drug abuse,

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Speaker 9: as well as mental illness, for which she takes medication.

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Speaker 9: Since she and Ava went missing, a prescription has not

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Speaker 9: been filled in her name. Law enforcement says they believe

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Speaker 9: Baldwin is moving frequently and it is possible she is

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Speaker 9: visiting homeless and women's shelters, claiming she is a victim

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Speaker 9: of stalking the case of Ava Baldwin as being investigated

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Speaker 9: as a non custodial parent abduction.

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Speaker 1: Straight out to doctor Chloe Carmichael, renowned clinical psychologist, author

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Speaker 1: of Nervous Energy, Harness The Power of Your Anxiety, and

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Speaker 1: you can find her on Twitter at doctor Chloe.

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Speaker 5: Doctor Chloe, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: I've seen this before, that an adult would rather have

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Speaker 1: the child with them, living in shelters, living in the rough,

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Speaker 1: going from place to place, rather than letting the parent,

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Speaker 1: the responsible parent, the loving parent, have the child. Can't

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Speaker 1: they see what hell they're dragging the child through.

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Speaker 5: Living that way?

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Speaker 1: I mean, going from woman's shelter to woman's shelter, claiming

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Speaker 1: she's been stalked and she needs to be in a

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Speaker 1: shelter and Dragammy. You've been in a woman's shelter, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean that's no place to raise a child.

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Speaker 10: Nancy, of course you're right about that. One thing that

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Speaker 10: stood out to me though, is the mention of substance

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Speaker 10: abuse as she is and potentially being off of her medication.

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Speaker 10: I don't know what the medication was for, but for example,

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Speaker 10: if it were about some kind of a psychotic disorder

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Speaker 10: like schizophrenia, or even the substance abuse itself can sometimes

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Speaker 10: produce paranoia.

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Speaker 5: The reason I mentioned.

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Speaker 10: That is because, as you said, if she's going from

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Speaker 10: place to place with fears of stalking, it may be

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Speaker 10: that she's seriously deluded. She may believe that she's you know,

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Speaker 10: rescuing her child from you know, some delusional dragnet, that

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Speaker 10: she in her mind, you know, believes that she's keeping

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Speaker 10: her safe. It does surprise me, though, that she's been

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Speaker 10: able to do this, you know, successfully for nearly a decade.

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Speaker 10: I mean, I just I'm a little surprised that through

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Speaker 10: you know, investigators, that we haven't been able to locate

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Speaker 10: her or the child.

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Speaker 1: Wait, along with Ava Grace's father, believe Ava Grace is

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Speaker 1: still alone for many, many different reasons, and that she's

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Speaker 1: being kept in hiding. But how does the dad put

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Speaker 1: his head on the pillow every night, wondering is she dead?

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Speaker 5: Is she alive? Where is she? What has become of her?

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Speaker 1: You are seeing pictures and video of Ava Grace with

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Speaker 1: her father. He had her for six wonderful years before

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Speaker 1: she was snatched away from him and it didn't start

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Speaker 1: in a good place.

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Speaker 9: David Hopper meets Catherine Baldwin in a recovery program called

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Speaker 9: Celebrate Recovery, a twelve step program helping people recover from alcohol, drugs,

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Speaker 9: and other issues. Even though newcomers are discouraged from making

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Speaker 9: big life decisions in their first year of sobriety, David

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Speaker 9: Hopper and Catherine Baldwin have a whirlwind courtship followed by

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Speaker 9: a small marriage. Shortly after meeting.

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Speaker 1: Tonight, a missing little girl's dad is haunting his ex

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Speaker 1: wife leaves disappear with his daughter after a thirty four

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Speaker 1: day marriage. Okay, straight back out to David Hawper, this

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Speaker 1: is Avid Grace's father.

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Speaker 5: You met in rehab. Why were you in rehab twenty

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Speaker 5: years ago?

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Speaker 6: I was with the perfect person in the world.

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Speaker 7: I had a drug addiction to Celebrate recovery, I guess

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Speaker 7: I beat it. So I became a ministry leader there

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Speaker 7: for the chapter in our hometown. I was a ministry

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Speaker 7: leader for four years, and during that time, that's when

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Speaker 7: I met Katie.

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Speaker 6: She was at the y Oklahoma City area. We met

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Speaker 6: up there at one of their programs.

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Speaker 1: What was it about you that attracted you and moved

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Speaker 1: you to a world win wedding. You married her right

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Speaker 1: after rehab.

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Speaker 6: Why we have known each other for like about four

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Speaker 6: or five months.

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Speaker 7: She has the ability to hit on a great facade.

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Speaker 7: She manipulates, tells you what you want to hear, and

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Speaker 7: a lot of things that she told me I found

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Speaker 7: out later on the lies. So it's about putting on

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Speaker 7: to speak. I like said, it's a facade. I said,

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Speaker 7: is just she's not who she says she is, And

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Speaker 7: that's what we found out later on. That's why last year, David.

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Speaker 1: I don't want you to feel like you are the

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Speaker 1: gullible one joining me.

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Speaker 5: You've met him already.

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Speaker 1: Darryl Cohen, veteran trial lawyer Daryl Cohen. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you ever had the privilege of practicing in front

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Speaker 1: of Judge Luther Alverson.

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Speaker 5: I was a signist's courtroom for.

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Speaker 1: Years, and he yeah, I loved best judge in the courthouse,

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Speaker 1: by the way, and the oldest judge, I might add,

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Speaker 1: And he wanted to prove to everybody he was fit

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Speaker 1: as a fiddle to stay on the bench. So we

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Speaker 1: would have to be on trial every other week and

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Speaker 1: keep the lowest jail count of any other judge in

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Speaker 1: the courthouse.

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Speaker 5: Right, So that's where I got all my trial experience.

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Speaker 1: But Darryl he had if you remember, the process that

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Speaker 1: other judge did not have, where I would sit in

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Speaker 1: a conference room and each defendant from the jail would

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Speaker 1: come in and sit on the other side of the

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Speaker 1: table with their lawyer, and we would try to do

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Speaker 1: a plea deal if possible. Okay, So Darryl, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you ever went through that with Alverson. But

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Speaker 1: I would sit there and listen to the defendants and

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking about what David Hopper said, and they would

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Speaker 1: be the worst of the worst, charged with childless station, murder, rape,

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Speaker 1: you name it. And they would sit down and they

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Speaker 1: would go, well, hello, miss Grace, and there we go.

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Speaker 1: I call it the Eddie Haskell effect. Remember off, leave

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Speaker 1: it to beaver, missus cleaver, lovely in those pearls, that

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Speaker 1: whole thing. And if you listen to them long enough,

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Speaker 1: you get totally sucked into their story.

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Speaker 5: They're very believable.

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Speaker 1: What I'm saying is violent felons can be very charming.

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Speaker 1: And here's this beautiful, full woman, a damsel in distress

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Speaker 1: and rehab, and she totally snows David Happer, he falls

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Speaker 1: for her, and bam they're married. People can be very

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Speaker 1: charming when in reality they're a snake in human skin.

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Speaker 8: Nancy over a short term, just a snippet in time.

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Speaker 8: People can do that. They can be salespeople, they can

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Speaker 8: be actors. They do what they feel like they can

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Speaker 8: do and they get away with it. By the way,

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Speaker 8: Judge Alperson used to have a motto of twa and

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Speaker 8: I said, your honor, What does that mean? He says,

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Speaker 8: Darryl travel wild, ambulatory, nothing to do with this case,

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Speaker 8: but he was a great human being and a great judge.

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Speaker 8: People have an ability to be snakes when they are

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Speaker 8: really bad serpents. They have the ability to be a

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Speaker 8: harmless snake, garden snake, when in fact they're a copperhead

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Speaker 8: or a coral snake. That is not unusual.

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Speaker 5: And that's exactly what this woman is.

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Speaker 1: How this beautiful little girl came out of her I

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Speaker 1: do not know just after thirty four days of wedded bliss.

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Speaker 1: I can only imagine those thirty four days.

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Speaker 3: This goes down thirty four days after their small wedding,

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Speaker 3: David Baldwin filed for divorce. During the separation, process, Hopper

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Speaker 3: finds out his soon to be ex wife is pregnant.

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Speaker 3: David Hopper vows to be the kind of father his

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Speaker 3: child will be proud of, but Baldwin tells him he

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Speaker 3: isn't the father. Shortly after Baldwin gives birth to a

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Speaker 3: beautiful baby girl, a court ordered DNA test proves David

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Speaker 3: Hopper is the father of Ava Grace. The couple is

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Speaker 3: no longer married, but they eventually begin making plans to

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Speaker 3: raise Ava together.

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Speaker 2: David Hopper and Catherine Baldwin's whirlwind romance ends after just

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Speaker 2: thirty four days of marriage, during which Catherine reveals she

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Speaker 2: is pregnant with their daughter, Ava Grace.

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Speaker 1: Talk about a wind courtship that was a whirl wind

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Speaker 1: marriage divorce after just thirty four days.

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Speaker 5: David, what went wrong? Dare?

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Speaker 11: I ask?

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Speaker 7: At that time, when when I was a ministry leader

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Speaker 7: Silver in Recovery, I was also through the program here

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Speaker 7: in Oklahoma called Drug Court. What I found out is

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Speaker 7: when I went into the office one day, the administrator

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Speaker 7: asked me if things was okay, and I said yes.

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Speaker 7: Why do you ask me, she says, because your wife

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Speaker 7: has been calling Anne, tellam that you're using well. I

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Speaker 7: was testing every day, so that wasn't the case. So

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Speaker 7: when I confronted her about it, she kind of went off.

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Speaker 7: And I don't want to have say a middle She

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Speaker 7: had a middle breakdown, you might say, because she got

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Speaker 7: caught at it. But if I'd have failed drug court,

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Speaker 7: I was looking at fourteen years in prison. So I

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Speaker 7: told her, you know what, this is a good work.

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Speaker 5: Oh my stars, she was setting you up to go

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Speaker 5: to prison.

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Speaker 1: Guys joining me now in addition to David Hopper and

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Speaker 1: Avid Grace is Auntie Tina Hopper Fulbright, Darryl Cohen, and

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Speaker 1: doctor Chloe. Ralph Garcia is joining us senior sergeant with

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Speaker 1: the Bear County District Attorney's Office there in Texas this jurisdiction,

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Speaker 1: and he has been working on this case since Avia

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Speaker 1: Grace went missing.

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Speaker 5: What can you tell me about this bio? Mom?

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Speaker 12: Well, Nancy, this you know, I didn't know the Hoppers

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Speaker 12: at all before they showed up here with this story

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Speaker 12: about the Ava missing. Once uh, once I determined that

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Speaker 12: you know, Ava and Catherine were missing, I started an

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Speaker 12: investigation trying to trying to locate Catherine and Ava. I

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Speaker 12: did a lot of the groundwork here here in San Antonio.

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Speaker 12: Uh kind of identified places as she she uh she

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Speaker 12: lived nearby, and people that she was associating with. And

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Speaker 12: you know, after a while, I guess after months, I decided,

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Speaker 12: I came to a conclusion she wasn't in San Antonio.

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Speaker 12: But there were a lot of stories, a lot of

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Speaker 12: stories about Catherine uh uh. Some of them, some of

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Speaker 12: them were were not so nice and some of them

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Speaker 12: some of them some people said that she was a

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Speaker 12: great mom.

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Speaker 11: But I believe that she had the ability to in

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Speaker 11: public be a great mom, uh, be that person as

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Speaker 11: you can see by the pictures.

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate you being here today, but you can't

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Speaker 1: just drop a bomb on Nancy Grace and she doesn't

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Speaker 1: follow up.

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Speaker 5: For instance, you said there's a lot of stories matter,

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Speaker 5: some good, some bad. What what story be specific?

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Speaker 12: Well, you know when I started, when I started my investigations,

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Speaker 12: I spoke to her family.

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Speaker 11: They gave me the same stories that David gave me

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Speaker 11: about about.

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Speaker 6: How she was.

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Speaker 11: She would use people, and she would go out with

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Speaker 11: certain men and in hopes that she can get something

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Speaker 11: out of a relationship. I also spoke to some of

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Speaker 11: the people that were in the uh the home that

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Speaker 11: was that she was at in.

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Speaker 5: What kind of home was it? Sergeant? What kind of

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Speaker 5: you said? The home? What kind of home was it?

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Speaker 13: So she disappeared from It was a home for a

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Speaker 13: battered woman that actually sat on a couple of akers

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Speaker 13: and had several different quarters living quarters on there. It

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Speaker 13: was a pretty pretty nice place. I believe you hold on.

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Speaker 5: Just a moment.

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Speaker 1: I want to follow up with a few things you said.

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Speaker 1: You're giving me so much information, Sergeant Garcia, thoughts are

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Speaker 1: pinging like a old pinball machine.

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Speaker 5: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace joining me now, Crime.

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Speaker 1: Stories investigative reporter Dave mac Dave.

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Speaker 5: Thank you so much for being with us.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to just absorb all the knowledge I'm getting

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Speaker 1: right now in our search for little Ava Grace.

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Speaker 5: I heard a lot of things.

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Speaker 1: Heard that the mom is a user and uses people.

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Speaker 5: That tells me a lot. But I'm going to go

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Speaker 5: to the shrink on that.

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Speaker 1: But to you, now, I see why you're trying to

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Speaker 1: convince me, Dave Mack, that the mom may be going

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Speaker 1: from shelter to shelter to shelter. And I've seen a

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Speaker 1: lot of shelters, only a handful of them were fit

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Speaker 1: to have a child in Okay. Now, I see what

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Speaker 1: you're saying, because at the time this mother, dare I

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Speaker 1: call her that she doesn't deserve It was in this

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Speaker 1: battered women's center shelter. She wasn't battered, she was on

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Speaker 1: the run. She left, and it wasn't untill like twenty

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Speaker 1: days later that anybody even knew she was gone, right,

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Speaker 1: And the dad kept waiting to hear from them, hear

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Speaker 1: from them, hear from them when he finds out they're gone,

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Speaker 1: much like call it mom.

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Speaker 5: Laurie Valo. Now, I see what you're saying.

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Speaker 1: So what's her pattern, Dave mac She would go from

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Speaker 1: shelter to shelter and convinced them she was being chased

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Speaker 1: or beaten or stalked. Yep.

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Speaker 3: She had a pretty common story, Nancy, that she was

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Speaker 3: the victim, she needed help and expected them to put

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Speaker 3: her up. I mean she went from shelters to religious missions,

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Speaker 3: you know, any group that would take her in, beat her,

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Speaker 3: give her a place to crash. That was pretty much it.

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Speaker 3: And she always had that idea that you know, she's

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Speaker 3: being followed, she is being chased. You know, she's got

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Speaker 3: to protect her daughter. And she was able to work

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Speaker 3: that into a lifestyle for a while, and you know what, Nancy,

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Speaker 3: very possible she's still doing it, and that Ava Grace

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Speaker 3: doesn't even know we're looking for her.

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Speaker 1: Gosh, Tina Hopper Foolbright joining us. Ava Grace is on tape. Tina,

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Speaker 1: I've got the same feeling that David has that she

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Speaker 1: is alive. And I guess you, standing by watching everything unfold,

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Speaker 1: could see this coming a mile away.

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Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, what happened.

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Speaker 14: He married her, they divorced, She went missing when she

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Speaker 14: was seven months pregnant. We hunted her down, we found

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Speaker 14: her on my space. She ran Child Protected Services, got

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Speaker 14: involved in Texas, She married an eighty year old man, divorced,

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Speaker 14: He divorced her, She ran with Ava again, and for

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Speaker 14: four years we chased her through the courts and then

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Speaker 14: CPS founder. They told my brother, if you come to Texas, you.

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Speaker 5: Can have her.

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Speaker 14: So they went to Texas to pick up Ava, and

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Speaker 14: the courts wouldn't let him have them. They built temporary

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Speaker 14: custody and from there she ran.

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Speaker 1: You know what, Tina, you just succinctly gave me a

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Speaker 1: perfect picture of what's going on here. And if anybody

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Speaker 1: thinks that she or Ava Grace are dead. They are

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Speaker 1: dead wrong, because you know what Miss Tina when you

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Speaker 1: don't know a horse.

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Speaker 5: Look at her track record. She's been doing.

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Speaker 1: This as long as you guys have known her, starting

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Speaker 1: at seven months pregnant. Yeah, starting at seven months pregnant

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Speaker 1: or before that. She took off after thirty four days

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Speaker 1: of marriage, she took off.

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Speaker 5: That's the first.

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Speaker 1: Time that we know of, but I suspect this is

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Speaker 1: a long standing pattern. Then at seven months pregnant, she

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Speaker 1: takes off with the baby.

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Speaker 5: Child Protective Services gets involved.

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Speaker 1: Then she marries an eighty year old man, and I

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Speaker 1: guess at that time she was in her early thirties,

441
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 1: early thirties, Okay, forget that fifty year age difference.

442
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 5: Then he divorces her. I can only imagine why.

443
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,679
Speaker 1: Then you think you got her back, You're gonna get custody,

444
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 1: and bam she runs. Okay, but at the get go

445
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 1: there was an agreement on custody.

446
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 5: Listen.

447
00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 2: After coming to an agreement on co parenting their little girl,

448
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,160
Speaker 2: it is shocked when involved and loads up little Eva.

449
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,920
Speaker 2: Grayson moves to San Antonio, Texas, seven hours away from

450
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 2: David's home in Oklahoma. Hopper is not happy about the

451
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,120
Speaker 2: decision and hires an attorney to try to work out

452
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 2: custody arrangement. The custody battle includes more than just personal

453
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 2: relationships between two people, but custodial laws between two states,

454
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 2: Oklahoma and Texas two.

455
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,360
Speaker 1: Daryl Cohen, veteran trial lawyer, both criminal and civil. See

456
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 1: that's a problem, Darryl Cohen. We've had so many cases.

457
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:28,880
Speaker 5: Where children are taken across.

458
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 1: State lines and then the two states, through no fault

459
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 1: of their own, are not communicating.

460
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,919
Speaker 5: I saw it in Harmony Montgomery. I saw it in

461
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 5: Adrian Jones.

462
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 1: I saw it in the Turpin Family House of Horrors,

463
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,959
Speaker 1: where a family moves and moves and moves, and CPS

464
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 1: is chasing them and lose their trail.

465
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 5: And that's what's happening here.

466
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 1: So Dad is hell bent that he will have his

467
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,879
Speaker 1: daughter in his life. They work out a custody agreement,

468
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 1: and mom has two stays warring Oklahoma and Texas, and

469
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 1: the girl, the baby girl gets lost in the sauce

470
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 1: between the two states.

471
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 5: Darryl Nancy.

472
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 8: This is typical of someone who believes every word that

473
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 8: they say, regardless of whether it has any semblance of

474
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 8: truth or veracity. But what we do have. Every state

475
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 8: has by a different name interference with custody. That's a

476
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 8: criminal charge that can be prosecuted. Every state has a

477
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 8: different name for that statute, but it exists and they

478
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 8: have to use that as best they can. This woman

479
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 8: is great at what she's doing. She is probably bipolar.

480
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 8: She is someone who can tell the biggest lie with

481
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,200
Speaker 8: the most truthful face and voice and eye contact.

482
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 1: I guarantee she's under an assumed name, and Ava Grace

483
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: doesn't even know we're looking for her, doesn't even know

484
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: she has a father out there. I guarantee, because she

485
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 1: told the little girl that before. And we know that

486
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 1: phem speaking of an unfit mother to Dave Mac, Crime

487
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 1: Stories investigative reporter, did you know that the mother?

488
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 5: It's like eating a dirt sandwich.

489
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,399
Speaker 1: I want to choke every time I call this woman

490
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 1: a mother was put herself on video performing a sex

491
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,719
Speaker 1: act with Ava Grace in the background.

492
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 5: Did you know that I did.

493
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 3: That's actually when CPS got involved, Nancy, because she did

494
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 3: post this solo sexual act online for all the world

495
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 3: to see.

496
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: And then Dave Mac, so this wasn't like a video

497
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,439
Speaker 1: disgusting video and hey, you in a video yourself having

498
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 1: sex with somebody else or yourself. Fine, I would just

499
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,680
Speaker 1: be mad if you didn't. But that's not what happened here.

500
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 1: This is a sex act with the baby there in

501
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: the background, and she posted it on a public plat form.

502
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 5: This isn't like.

503
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: Sending picks or sexy picks to your lover or your spouse.

504
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 1: She put the video off herself in a sex act

505
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: with the child in the video and posted it online.

506
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:32,439
Speaker 1: How many pervs do you think watch that? About a

507
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 1: million times? That never occurred to me, Nancie. All I

508
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 1: could think of is my own children and business.

509
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 5: Do you think we're in this is a walk at

510
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 5: the park or not? I was really Kroger.

511
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 3: I was just really thinking of this so called mother,

512
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 3: you know, with her two year old child at the

513
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 3: time on the same bed while she's doing a solo

514
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 3: sex act or video online. I thought about how horrible

515
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 3: that was. I didn't even get to the perv aspect

516
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 3: of the whole thing.

517
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 2: Ava's dad receives a strange call one day after Ava's

518
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 2: school reports the six year old hasn't been to class

519
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 2: in well over twenty one days.

520
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: Can you imagine can you imagine getting a call from

521
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: a school and they say.

522
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 5: Where's your little girl? Where's your six year old girl?

523
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 1: She's not only absent today, she hasn't been here for

524
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: twenty one days.

525
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 5: Listen.

526
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 9: Ava Grace Baldwin is a very active little girl. She

527
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:30,479
Speaker 9: enjoys cheerleading, gymnastics, soccer, and tumbling. That is why it

528
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 9: is such a surprise when the principal of the private

529
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 9: school Ava Grace attends in San Antonio calls her father,

530
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,479
Speaker 9: David Hopper, at his home in Oklahoma September seventeenth, asking

531
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 9: if he can explain why Ava Grace has missed the

532
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 9: last twenty one days of school. Hopper has no idea

533
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 9: and calls the San Antonio Police to report six year

534
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 9: old Ava Grace Baldwin missing. Police go to the address

535
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 9: listed for Ava Grace at the school and immediately.

536
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 5: Know they have a really big problem.

537
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 9: The address Katherine Baldwin put down for a home address

538
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 9: for Ava is a vacant.

539
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 3: Lot, police believed. When Catherine realized Hopper was going to

540
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 3: give custody, Baldwin panicked and ran off with the child.

541
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 5: Oh my stars.

542
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: Police immediately began investigating where is Avia Grace and they

543
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: go to the LKA last known address and it is

544
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: a vacant lot.

545
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 5: Tina Hopper Fulbright.

546
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: This is Avia Grace is auntie joining me along with

547
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: her dad, David. Tina, when you learned the address was

548
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: a vacant lot, your stomach had to drop to your ankles. Yeah,

549
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: can you I want to circle back to where we

550
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 1: were before I go off on the vacant lot. Did

551
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: you have any idea the bio mom was performing sex

552
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 1: acts on camera with Ava Grace in the background.

553
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 5: How did you find out about that?

554
00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 14: Mister Moore, which was the eighty year old man she

555
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 14: made married his family. He divorced her through the courts

556
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 14: down in Bernie, Texas. And David was down there along

557
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 14: with my mother and they listened to the testimony and

558
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 14: that was brought up in court.

559
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 1: So you had no idea this was going on until

560
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 1: you sat in on the eighty year old's divorce. What else,

561
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: if anything, did you learn from that testimony?

562
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 6: I learned a lot.

563
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 5: I learned a lot. But everything we learned and I

564
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 5: want to hear it.

565
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 14: Tell me, well missed thirty seven days of nine weeks

566
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 14: of her kindergarten school and when they went out to

567
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 14: check welfare check on her. She had painted PoCA dots

568
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 14: all over and said that she had chicken pop. The

569
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 14: neighbor lady informed us that she give a vassalt math

570
00:31:53,920 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 14: in pure salt rock salt. I learned that when she

571
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 14: took off the Florida, she tried to give ava to

572
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 14: the people that she was staying with. She was staying

573
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 14: in a shelter. Some people had ava at three years old,

574
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 14: and she was going to leave ava in the state

575
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 14: of Florida while she come back to fight David over custody.

576
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 14: That didn't mark.

577
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 6: I learned a lot. I learned a lot.

578
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 14: A lot take hours to tell you what I learned.

579
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 6: The sad deal.

580
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: I know that the bio mom in this case has

581
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: an adult daughter who is still living. Catherine Baldwin has

582
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: an adult daughter that, according to documents, was adopted out.

583
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 5: But that's not what you say happens. What happened to

584
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 5: her adult daughter.

585
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 14: Her adult daughter lives in California, and I'm saying she

586
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 14: sold her because that's the story that Katie told us.

587
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 14: That the people paid her money. They were her god parents,

588
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 14: and they paid her money throughout her whole time. But

589
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 14: at one time she took that child from them people

590
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 14: and took her down to Florida and kept her down

591
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 14: there for three or four months. It was an open adoption,

592
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 14: and she took her down there for three or four

593
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 14: months and took her from the people from California. So

594
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 14: she took that child too, but then she returned that child.

595
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 3: Catherine Baldwin has ties to several states, including Florida, and

596
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 3: Ava Grace's father, David Hopper, says there is a case

597
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 3: in Florida where Catherine Baldwin approaches a couple about taking

598
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 3: custody of Ava and raising her. The couple is shocked

599
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 3: by the offer and reach out to local law enforcement,

600
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 3: but police are unable to locate Baldwin or Ava Grace.

601
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 5: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

602
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 3: Is it possible Catherine and Ava Grace are hiding in

603
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 3: plain sight? Armchair detectives claiming Catherine and Nava Baldwin are

604
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 3: on TikTok using the profile of Be Pop and Bebe.

605
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 3: The TikTok videos rack up a lot of comments from

606
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 3: viewers who claim to see things in the videos that

607
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 3: lead them to believe Bibe is being trafficked due to

608
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,320
Speaker 3: a lock seen in the bedroom they're using for filming

609
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 3: The story is even featured in a Rolling Stone magazine article, and.

610
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: The Rolling Stone Magazine article created a big stir in

611
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 1: a search for Ava Grace. What does TikTok have to

612
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: do with this. Let's look at the TikTok video we're

613
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 1: talking about. This is from our friends at beebop and

614
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 1: bbe Okay.

615
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 5: Look, David, when you.

616
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 1: First were told that Ava Grace had emerged on TikTok,

617
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 1: what did you think?

618
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,439
Speaker 6: I had mixed reactions about it. At the time.

619
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 7: I was glad that our cases getting more views and

620
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 7: that was coming to you know, by the public.

621
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 6: That was a good thing for it.

622
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 7: But after seeing the videos I recognized the media that

623
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 7: it wasn't her. There's just certain facial features and stuff

624
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 7: like that that you see that it was at Ada

625
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 7: and it was at Katie.

626
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 6: But the recognition brought towards Ava's case. That was a

627
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 6: good thing.

628
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 7: Because our phones blew up, I mean, emails, people calling us, messages.

629
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 6: It was it was.

630
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 7: It turned out to be a blessing because afterwards a

631
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 7: lot of national syndication news places got a hold of

632
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 7: the case. Let's even started contacting us. So in a way,

633
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 7: it was a good thing. But but it was it

634
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 7: wasn't her.

635
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 5: What about it, Tina hopperful Bright? Did you know immediately

636
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 5: it's not her?

637
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:36,399
Speaker 6: I did?

638
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 15: I did, And she's not a little real competity either that.

639
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 15: We have been bombarded daily, hundreds of thousands telling us

640
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,240
Speaker 15: that we don't care. It needs to be investigated.

641
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 14: What type of people are we that we're not going

642
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 14: to go after these videos? They have been investigated. US

643
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 14: marshals have investigated it. Ralph Garci investigated, They've been highly investigated.

644
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 5: You know what.

645
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, Tina, Ralph Garcia, you've investigated it fully.

646
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 5: What did you do to investigate it and what did

647
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:10,879
Speaker 5: you learn?

648
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 12: Well, Nancy, what I did was I went ahead and

649
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 12: this research on IP addresses and stuff like that, found

650
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 12: out what city was in contacted.

651
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 11: The local police ended up getting an ID and.

652
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 12: Confirming the birth certificate in driver's license of the mother

653
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 12: who had lived in that city of her whole life.

654
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 11: There are similarities in the way they look, but it's

655
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 11: just was not her.

656
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 3: A Facebook page titled Ava Grace Baldwin Hopper Letters to

657
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 3: You has been established where anyone can write letters directly

658
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 3: to Ava Grace and share missing child posters that include

659
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 3: an age progression photo of what Ava Grace might look

660
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 3: like today. Family, friends and interested individuals post good wishes

661
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 3: and thoughts and are encouraged to share the page and information.

662
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 1: Back to renowned clinical psychologist doctor Chloe Carmichael.

663
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 5: Doctor Chloe, when I look.

664
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 1: At the mom and you know how I hate to

665
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 1: call her that she doesn't deserve that title background I would,

666
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,760
Speaker 1: and you're the shrink. But if I were a betting person,

667
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,720
Speaker 1: I'm putting money on it. This woman is not dead

668
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 1: and this daughter, Avid Grace is not dead.

669
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 5: She's out there.

670
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 10: Yeah, I agree with you on that, Nancy. Obviously you

671
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 10: know we don't know, but I'm so glad that you're

672
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 10: doing this segment because I agree with you that if

673
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 10: she is alive, it's very doubtful that the mother, as

674
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 10: you say, is hard to call her that is letting

675
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 10: better know about that because there's such an incredibly narcissistic

676
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 10: quality to this, you know, so called mother. So going back,

677
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 10: it's you know, kind of graphic. But going back to

678
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 10: the information that the mother posted a video of herself

679
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,720
Speaker 10: pleasuring herself with her daughter in the background, there's something

680
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 10: in incredibly narcissistic about that.

681
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 14: Right.

682
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 10: First of all, doing that and then posting it for

683
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 10: the public. There's kind of an incredible desire for attention there.

684
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 10: And then either she was aware her daughter was in

685
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 10: the background and thought it would generate more interest, which

686
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 10: is obviously narcissistic to use her daughter as a prop

687
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 10: that way, or if she was genuinely unaware, if she

688
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 10: would be that self absorbed that even in setting up

689
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 10: a camera of herself to do this, that she would

690
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 10: be so self absorbed that she wouldn't even think of

691
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 10: her own daughter appearing there in the frame. Either way,

692
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 10: to me, it points to just an incredible level of narcissism.

693
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 10: The mother is I must say, she looks like an

694
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 10: attractive woman. As somebody else mentioned, she seems like she

695
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 10: knows how to say the right things and you know,

696
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,839
Speaker 10: kind of manipulate people on a certain level. And the

697
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,359
Speaker 10: fact that she, you know, married that eighty year old

698
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,879
Speaker 10: man with a fifty year age gap willly to run

699
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 10: out shortly afterwards. I leave somebody you know said that

700
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 10: she attempted to sell you know, a different child.

701
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 5: There's just an.

702
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 10: Incredible objectification of people, you know again, where it's like

703
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 10: she would be using her daughter as a prop you know,

704
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 10: maybe to get priority entry into these places, or you know,

705
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,800
Speaker 10: God forbid whatever. You know she's guiding her daughter into

706
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 10: at this point. So I join everybody here with hopes

707
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 10: and prayers that maybe this segment will even raise just

708
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 10: that last bit of awareness that's needed. Ava Grace. If

709
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 10: you're out there, please there's how.

710
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 1: You know to David Hopper or Auntee Hopper Fulbright, the

711
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 1: father and aunt of Ava Grace. If you don't know

712
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,800
Speaker 1: what's going to happen, you look at what has already happened.

713
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 1: She's already sold one daughter, she's already tried to sell

714
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: Ava Grace, and we know that. So it's very possible

715
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 1: that right now a family has Ava Grace and they

716
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,280
Speaker 1: think they're protecting her from the mother.

717
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 5: They don't even know you exist.

718
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 6: David, Yeah, that's that's true.

719
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 7: And I said with the first time I got to

720
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,399
Speaker 7: see Ava, I was in San Antonio after a court

721
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 7: after a court meeting. But uh, she was just surprised

722
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 7: because she kept savings the pictures you see us in

723
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 7: the pool.

724
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 6: She is going, you're my daddy, You're my daddy. And

725
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 6: she didn't even.

726
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 5: Know she had a dad.

727
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 6: No, she did that's what her mother told her.

728
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 7: So yeah, there's chances of we have a letter from

729
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,320
Speaker 7: the people in Florida that were they were they Katie

730
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,880
Speaker 7: tried to give her give them custody of Aba and

731
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 7: they apologize it.

732
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 6: If we had known, we would have taken her a.

733
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 7: Gun, do you So, Yeah, there's a chance today that she,

734
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 7: you know, Katie might not even have her anymore. And

735
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 7: it's not that maybe she's protecting her from the mother,

736
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 7: which is that's possible, but there's no ton of what

737
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 7: she has told other people about me and my family.

738
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 7: Uh so we me Katie. She's a manipulator, she's she's

739
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 7: a compulsive liar. She has eleven different alias as we've doubt.

740
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 6: So there's there's.

741
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:07,439
Speaker 7: Things that I don't know. There's a chance she might

742
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 7: not be with the mother right now. And you asked me,

743
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 7: how do we get by? How do I get by? Daiies?

744
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 6: Sometimes that's a thought that comes in my mind. Hopefully

745
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:17,359
Speaker 6: she's with somebody that keep her safe.

746
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 5: Uh.

747
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 7: We know that Katie throughout her life has always had

748
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 7: to have a caretaker.

749
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:22,360
Speaker 6: Basically.

750
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 7: In fact, the older man, mister Morgan that she married,

751
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 7: she when I first heard of him, she told me

752
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 7: it was her grandpa.

753
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 14: Uh.

754
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 7: I mean, there's just all these different stories and stuff,

755
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 7: but yeah, he was supposed to apparently been married to

756
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:38,400
Speaker 7: her grandma at one time, and that's that's how I

757
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 7: knew about him. But uh, it's just it's all manipulation.

758
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 5: I got a question for you, Tana.

759
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 1: I mean, when you look at her track record, she

760
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: has probably sold Aba Grace and Ama Grace, I pray

761
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: to God is being raised by a family that wanted her,

762
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: and they have no idea that there there's a dad

763
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 1: out there desperately trying to connect with his bio daughter

764
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 1: that he loves. They probably think they're protecting her front

765
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 1: baby from the mother, and so they are, you know,

766
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: death con four totally under the radar.

767
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 14: It's either that or they're afraid of the mother they're

768
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 14: afraid of. Because you cross Katie, you pay consequences for it.

769
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 14: I have found this out too, the people that she

770
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,320
Speaker 14: wanted to give Aba to in Florida. On her way

771
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 14: back to Texas, she called the little girl, the woman

772
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 14: who had a child Ava's age, and asked her, did

773
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 14: your husband see.

774
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:43,720
Speaker 6: My daughter naked?

775
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 8: Well?

776
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 14: That really like scared the girl because yeah, he's seen

777
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,879
Speaker 14: her naked. He helped bathe their children, and he would

778
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:53,240
Speaker 14: get Aba out of the bathtub.

779
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 13: Two.

780
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,320
Speaker 14: And you know what you do when you got small kids.

781
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,879
Speaker 14: You get diapers, you get pajamas, you put them to bed.

782
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 14: But she threatens people. She even does this. Her own

783
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 14: brother was afraid to be alone with Ava because of

784
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 14: what Katie may say.

785
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 1: Wow, somewhere out there is Ava Grace. And I agree

786
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:23,240
Speaker 1: with mister Hopper. There is no substitute.

787
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 5: For a dad, your dad.

788
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 1: And if she can only have you for one year,

789
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 1: five years, ten years, twenty years, it'd be better. It

790
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:37,919
Speaker 1: would be better than never having you at all. If

791
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 1: you know or you think you know anything about Missing Grace,

792
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 1: we are showing you age progressed photos. Now please dial

793
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 1: San Antonio PD two one zero to zero seven seven

794
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 1: six six zero to one zero to zero seven seven

795
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 1: six six zero. We can bring Ava Grace home. We

796
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 1: remember an American hero police officer, Thomas Devlin, Boston College PD,

797
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 1: passed away in a line of duty after twenty one

798
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 1: years of service. Le's behind wife turned widow, Patricia daughter

799
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 1: Christine American hero police officer Thomas Devlin.

800
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 5: Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend,