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Speaker 1: Trust me? Do you trust her?

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Speaker 2: Right ever? Lead you?

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Speaker 1: Astrit trust? This is the truth, the only truth.

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Speaker 3: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't

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Speaker 3: welcome to trust me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief

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Speaker 3: and manipulation from two cult brides who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 3: I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth, and this week

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Speaker 3: is part two with our guests Liz Cameron, survivor of

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Speaker 3: Korean religious group Jesus Morning Star AKAJMS, and author of

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Speaker 3: Cult Bride. Last week we talked about the slow and

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Speaker 3: meticulous process of indoctrination into the group, and this week

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Speaker 3: she'll tell us about how the women revealed that the

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Speaker 3: mysterious pastor Joshua they'd been talking about this whole time

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Speaker 3: was actually not a pastor. He was the second Coming

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Speaker 3: of Christ and he was currently sitting in prison in

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Speaker 3: South Korea for sexual assault. But don't worry, they said

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Speaker 3: it was just because of persecution.

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Speaker 4: Liz explains how all the perfectly planned in doctrination leading

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Speaker 4: up until this point primed her to be able to

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Speaker 4: accept something like this, How she'd been identified to be

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Speaker 4: one of the brides of this leader. What happened when

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Speaker 4: she traveled to Korea to meet Im in person, and

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Speaker 4: how the eating disorder re triggered by the group, landed

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Speaker 4: her in the hospital but ultimately helped her get out

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Speaker 4: of the group, which Lola, we talk about this in

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Speaker 4: the episode, but that's like my story. What Oh my god,

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Speaker 4: I know, it's like, it's such a it's such a

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Speaker 4: fucked up thing.

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Speaker 3: When someone gets ill because of a group. You don't

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Speaker 3: want them to be ill. But that time spent in

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Speaker 3: the hospital. I mean we've had on a number of

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Speaker 3: guests like this. That time spent in the hospital is

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Speaker 3: the thing that helps them get out, or or.

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Speaker 4: A job like I always go back to Moses Storm

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Speaker 4: working in the grocery store for like two weeks and

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Speaker 4: being like, I'm in love with one of the other totally, totally, I'm.

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Speaker 1: Out, totally.

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Speaker 3: Well, we will get into all of that shortly. And

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Speaker 3: before we do, Megan, what's your cultiest thing this week?

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Speaker 4: Oh my god, I'm so angry but excited that Prince

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Speaker 4: Andrew The Andrew formerly known as Prince was arrested for

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Speaker 4: the first time in four hundred years someone in.

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Speaker 1: The royal family has been arrested. Crazy.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I was on our former guests podcast Mike Pressak

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Speaker 4: you remember Mike and Abby. He has a new series

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Speaker 4: called Beyond Religion. I did a YouTube video with him

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Speaker 4: and he asked who my dream guest would be, and

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Speaker 4: I said Prince Harry because I think the Royal family

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Speaker 4: is the.

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Speaker 1: Wildest of all time period.

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Speaker 4: And then to see Prince Andrew be arrested right after

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Speaker 4: was like, yes, British people really either are divided where

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Speaker 4: they're like it's the biggest fraud crazy thing I've ever seen.

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Speaker 1: Get it out of there. Are They're like so obsessed

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Speaker 1: with the Queen.

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Speaker 4: She's become some projection of like Mother Earth to them

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Speaker 4: that they get so mad at you. So I'm not

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Speaker 4: like trying to come after British people who feel really

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Speaker 4: close to the Queen.

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Speaker 1: Not the new Queen.

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Speaker 4: I don't think, no, even come up, yeah, I mean

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Speaker 4: and yeah, I watched The Crown religiously.

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Speaker 1: It's wonderful. I loved the Crown, but like she did allegedly.

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Speaker 4: Know a lot about Andrew's crimes and cover up for

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Speaker 4: a minute, It's just like, get out of here, lady,

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Speaker 4: get all of you. What is this? This is stupid.

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Speaker 4: I mean, the Crown does a great job, but depicting

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Speaker 4: like how prioritizing protecting the reputation of the royal family

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Speaker 4: is like the number one most important thing more wrecked

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Speaker 4: and I talk about this listens beyond religion. Mike Is

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Speaker 4: does a great job, and he only speaks sext two

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Speaker 4: by twos, but like kind of their whole purpose of

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Speaker 4: the Royal family, which I find in a lot of cults,

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Speaker 4: the two by two in particular is to show the

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Speaker 4: rest of humanity, lowly humanity, this example of life, you know,

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Speaker 4: like we use the fine China, we're very oh my

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Speaker 4: God like, like we have to show people what life British.

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Speaker 1: So you're not it's just weird. You just sound weird. Yeah, yeah, okay.

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Speaker 4: We have to show the people like what it means

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Speaker 4: to be perfect and that that will bring them closer

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Speaker 4: to God.

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Speaker 1: That is crazy.

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Speaker 3: I mean, listen, I love a castle as much as

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Speaker 3: the next person. I love a fancy room, but it

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Speaker 3: does all feel quite anachronistic in the modern era, like

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Speaker 3: we there is inequality in the world. I mean, but listen,

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Speaker 3: I also understand that we need like people in culture

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Speaker 3: to you know, all rally behind like I don't know,

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Speaker 3: I'm up to minds about it, but it does seem

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Speaker 3: a little bit outdated at this point.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, like, I don't know, shit, what would

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Speaker 4: happen if they were like, okay, it's done now, everybody

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Speaker 4: leave Buckingham Palace.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, like probably disaster.

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Speaker 4: So this is all hyperbole, but I love to seeing

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Speaker 4: Prince Andrew with his face looking crazy and the.

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Speaker 3: Cop car bye bye.

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Speaker 4: He never thought that was gonna happen. I know that allegedly. Okay,

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Speaker 4: so that was kind of my cultiest thing of the week.

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Speaker 4: What was yours?

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Speaker 3: I listened to a podcast, which I don't do very often,

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Speaker 3: weirdly for a podcaster. I listened to the Being Well podcast,

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Speaker 3: which is like a therapy podcast, and the guest was

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Speaker 3: Nedrick Lover to wob and she was talking about her book,

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Speaker 3: The Balancing Act, her new book which is about codependency

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Speaker 3: but also healthy dependency. And I thought it was really

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Speaker 3: interesting because they were having a conversation about something that

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Speaker 3: I feel like comes up a lot in sort of

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Speaker 3: the survivor world, which is like this need to have

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Speaker 3: boundaries and how that's really important. But one of the

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Speaker 3: unintended consequences of this boundaries movement is people become over boundaried,

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Speaker 3: and they start to fixate on this idea of loving yourself,

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Speaker 3: loving yourself and not needing anyone else. But in reality,

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Speaker 3: we're human beings, we are social creatures.

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Speaker 1: We need people.

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Speaker 3: We do need people, and we're not going to meet

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Speaker 3: our own needs by ourselves forever. So how to develop

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Speaker 3: connection that is healthy and be able to maintain community

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Speaker 3: without doing this sort of you know, you meet I

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Speaker 3: certainly know my share of people. I'm sure you do too,

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Speaker 3: where they're like kind of hyper boundaried, where they're like

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Speaker 3: cutting people off left and right instead of navigating conflict

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Speaker 3: or like finding a healthier way to have a relationship

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Speaker 3: with that person. It almost becomes a replacement for like communication,

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Speaker 3: and then that leaves people that can leave people I

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Speaker 3: should say isolated, because instead of deepening their connections with

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Speaker 3: people through the processes of navigating conflict and communicating, they're

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Speaker 3: just isolating themselves essentially. I just thought that that was

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Speaker 3: really interesting, especially in the context of just like, you know,

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Speaker 3: we talk so much about community on this show and

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Speaker 3: how much we need it, but how that need can

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Speaker 3: go badly And then I think there's this tendency for

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Speaker 3: many of us to overcorrect, or if we've gotten out

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Speaker 3: of a bad relationship and then we're dating again, there

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Speaker 3: can be this knee jerk need to like be a

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Speaker 3: little bit hyper vigilant about whether somebody is crossing our boundaries,

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Speaker 3: and the communication can kind of get lost in the sauce.

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Speaker 4: I think absolutely when it comes to dating, I am

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Speaker 4: in the latter camp. I'm not even going on a

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Speaker 4: date because my boundaries are so strong.

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Speaker 1: A relationships very strong. It's not happening.

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Speaker 4: But I do live by that quote that's like the

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Speaker 4: cost of community is showing up when you don't want to.

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Speaker 1: So I love it. I'm going. I'm going to a

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Speaker 1: lot of kids' birthdays.

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Speaker 4: And and i'm you know, and I'm glad that I

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Speaker 4: do every time I leave, But I never want to

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Speaker 4: leave my house same, you know. But even I saw

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Speaker 4: you at a birthday party the other night, like that

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Speaker 4: was a hard news day for me, and the last.

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Speaker 1: Thing I wanted to do was to like go out,

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Speaker 1: but I did.

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Speaker 4: And the connections to people I haven't seen in a

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Speaker 4: while and stuff, it does help.

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Speaker 1: So certainly I don't.

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Speaker 4: Know anything about dating because at this point, to me,

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Speaker 4: romance just seems like a bad idea red flag, and.

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Speaker 3: I'm having the opposite experience where I'm just dating everyone.

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Speaker 1: I'm dating all of the men.

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Speaker 4: Like if somebody's like I want to be in a

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Speaker 4: relationship a man, I'm like, oh that's a red flag.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, yes, yes, I'm I'm I'm like.

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Speaker 4: The wrong genre because I used to live in a

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Speaker 4: romantic Hallmark movie. So I need to get it together.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, it balance, it is balanced. And yeah, but

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Speaker 4: I would say I think it's better to be by

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Speaker 4: yourself than with bad people.

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Speaker 3: Well I think that's absolutely true. No one should be

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Speaker 3: with bad people.

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Speaker 1: You joke.

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Speaker 3: But I you know, there are a couple of Facebook

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Speaker 3: groups I'm in that pertain to dating, and I will

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Speaker 3: see sometimes that are like this man asked me for

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Speaker 3: a second date.

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Speaker 1: Is that a red flag?

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Speaker 3: And I'm going girl girl interest is okay?

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Speaker 1: Right right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, no, no, I'm in. I'm in those groups too. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I'm And I'm the person you're plying. Yes, run the BLOCKHM,

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Speaker 4: call the police.

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Speaker 1: Connection is good. We like connection.

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Speaker 3: We just you know, just just try to do our

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Speaker 3: best to make sure it's healthy. And if we conclude

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Speaker 3: that it's not, then we can separate or just distance

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Speaker 3: ourselves a bit, but like we do need that. We

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Speaker 3: need connection, we need friendship, we need relationship, we need communities.

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Speaker 3: So that's that's my cultiest thing.

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Speaker 4: Okay, great, Well, the only man I'm interested in talking

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Speaker 4: to is Prince Harry about escaping the royal family. So

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Speaker 4: if anybody has the hookup, let us know. And for now,

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Speaker 4: let's talk to lez.

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Speaker 1: Let's do it.

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Speaker 3: We left off last week talking about how you have

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Speaker 3: this bombshell dropped on you that pastor Joshua, who you'd

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Speaker 3: been hearing about for months.

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Speaker 1: Is this amazing person.

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Speaker 4: Just annoying off Yeah, formerly annoying opposition of like I'm

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Speaker 4: supposed to meditating fast as much as him. Now we

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Speaker 4: realize he's actually Jesus.

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Speaker 3: In prison, Yeah, in Korea for sexual assault. But don't

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Speaker 3: worry because he didn't do it.

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Speaker 2: It's totally chill. Yeah, yeah, he didn't do it.

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Speaker 1: That was just persecution.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, what is your response, Like, what's going on in

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Speaker 4: your head when they dropped this on you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? So this is before I moved in with them,

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Speaker 2: This is when i'd just come back from Europe with

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Speaker 2: my friends and spent the whole time, of course being

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Speaker 2: a widow and was like getting up praying every morning

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Speaker 2: at five am. They're sleeping in because they're normal, and

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Speaker 2: all I wanted to talk about was God and Jesus

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Speaker 2: in the Bible, and they're just trying to have fun,

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Speaker 2: you know, exploring them all. And so I came back

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Speaker 2: and I'd missed them. They'd missed me, evidently, and they

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Speaker 2: wanted to tell me everything, you know. And the whole

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Speaker 2: time that I was in Europe, they maintained a really

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Speaker 2: strong connection with me. They would call me, they would

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Speaker 2: email me, and they also put me in touch with

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Speaker 2: the local group in London, and I spent time with them,

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Speaker 2: and it was comforting to me because I felt at

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Speaker 2: that point so divorced from everything outside of that group.

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Speaker 2: It just didn't feel like it was important or like

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Speaker 2: I just didn't relate to it anymore. I didn't fit

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Speaker 2: in that world. I wanted to fear around these people

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Speaker 2: that I had been getting to know and slowly aligning

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Speaker 2: myself with. I come back and yeah, they tell me.

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Speaker 2: I think this was over the course of a few

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Speaker 2: Bible studies, but the first bombshell they drop is, yes,

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Speaker 2: our beloved Pastor Joshua is actually in prison, because you know,

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Speaker 2: he's been persecuted for many years because he has this

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Speaker 2: very strong faith. And basically Satan used these women to

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Speaker 2: bring false accusations against him, that they had been raped,

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Speaker 2: and it was just all salacious lies, and they did

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Speaker 2: a test and they proved that it never happened.

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Speaker 1: This is what they're saying to you.

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Speaker 2: Correct, correct, Yes, categorically not true in reality. Yeah, And

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Speaker 2: so I a few things going on, obviously, being a

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Speaker 2: much younger, much more naive person who has no idea

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Speaker 2: about the nature of sexual assault claims and how true

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Speaker 2: they normally are. And why would you make a claim

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Speaker 2: like that unless something horrible had happened to you and

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Speaker 2: you were just trying to find justice. Why would you

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Speaker 2: make something up like that? What is there? Again? I

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Speaker 2: didn't know about believing women. All I knew about what

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Speaker 2: was you believe the authority figures in the church, which again,

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Speaker 2: obviously I don't align myself with that way of thinking anymore.

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Speaker 2: But I trusted these women. They were women, and over

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Speaker 2: time they had been telling me about this incredible, beautiful person,

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Speaker 2: including stories of his childhood, including stories of his mother.

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Speaker 2: They really humanized this man to me well before they

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Speaker 2: told me that he was being persecuted. Add to that,

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Speaker 2: I didn't really know much about South Korea or its culture.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know how well accepted Christianity was over there.

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Speaker 2: I just knew it was a country that I didn't

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Speaker 2: know much about, and I'd grown up with, you know,

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Speaker 2: an understanding that overseas as a general sweeping term, people

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Speaker 2: have persecuted for their faith all the time, because we

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Speaker 2: love Christians love of persecutionary they do.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's so convenient. It is so, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, they told you not to google him when

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Speaker 3: they told you this information.

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Speaker 1: They didn't want you to look it up.

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Speaker 3: Correct, it had to come through the narrative and their

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Speaker 3: framing or it was satanic basically, right.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, and like, which sounds crazy, right, Like it sounds like,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, that's such an obvious tell. But back

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Speaker 2: then it was what twenty twenty eleven, I was not

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Speaker 2: chronically online like we all are nowadays. I didn't know

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Speaker 2: the name of the church because they had their own

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Speaker 2: name for their own church in Canberra, and I didn't

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Speaker 2: even know it was connected to like a larger church.

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Speaker 2: And you know, it sounds so creepy that they said,

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Speaker 2: don't look it up immediately, you'd want to look it up, right,

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Speaker 2: But the way that they've presented it to me, and

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Speaker 2: again in the context of they've earned my trust and

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Speaker 2: they've cut me off from the outside, was you know,

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Speaker 2: if you look at slander, if you look at Satan's lies,

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Speaker 2: you're harming your own spirit.

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Speaker 1: Spiritual suicide they called it.

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Speaker 2: Correct.

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Speaker 3: Oh my yes, googling is spiritual suicide, taking your spiritual

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Speaker 3: self and just killing it and ruining the that's right,

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Speaker 3: secret revelation that the world is trying to take you.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. It's like drinking poison. It's like putting a gun

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Speaker 2: to your head in the spirit. And so I was like, well,

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Speaker 2: I don't want to hurt my spirit. I don't want

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Speaker 2: to dirty it with these satanic lies. Yeah, and again

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Speaker 2: talking about.

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Speaker 4: It now, I'm like, this is so insane. We all

291
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Speaker 4: know that we all feel that way. Don't worry. That's

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Speaker 4: the way it does.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you had been primed and indoctrinated and manipulated, like

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Speaker 3: literally them strategizing together how to get you to believe

295
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Speaker 3: at the appropriate pace.

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Speaker 2: Correct.

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Speaker 1: He also has or wants wives.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, explain the brides because this is an important turning point.

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Speaker 2: I feel it's quite important. So how would I start

300
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Speaker 2: with the theology of it? A very loose term for

301
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Speaker 2: what I'm about to explain, but so basically the why.

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Speaker 2: And again this was presented much further down the track.

303
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Speaker 2: This was one of the biggest secrets. This was where

304
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Speaker 2: a lot of like biblical cherry picking and timelines and

305
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Speaker 2: you know, nostrodamist prophecies and all this stuff came into play.

306
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Speaker 2: And they explained that, you know, and we're familiar with, right,

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Speaker 2: the Old Testament in the Bible is where God was

308
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Speaker 2: almost like a master in relation to human beings. That

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Speaker 2: you know, when he described human beings, he said, this

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Speaker 2: is my servant, Moses, this is my servant job. So

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Speaker 2: we were slaves in relation to God. And then Jesus

312
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Speaker 2: came in the New Testament and he elevated the relationship

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Speaker 2: of humans to God, to children, this is my son,

314
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Speaker 2: you know, and and he afforded, you know, according to

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Speaker 2: that theology, afforded all of humanity that right, and then

316
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Speaker 2: along comes this dude from Korea and he he's set

317
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Speaker 2: the conditions, He's laid the foundation, and this was where

318
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Speaker 2: they're setting conditions came in he set such extreme conditions

319
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Speaker 2: so that you know, according to their law, he created

320
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Speaker 2: the conditions where God could enact the Second Coming through him,

321
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Speaker 2: and he set the conditions to elevate us to the

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Speaker 2: position of a bride before God, which is almost like

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Speaker 2: the fulfillment of you know, what God had intended for humanity.

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Speaker 3: So this isn't a metaphorical like I'm spiritually married to God.

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Speaker 3: Because Joshua himself represents Christ is Christ is the Second Coming,

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Speaker 3: is better.

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Speaker 1: Than Christ because he's better.

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Speaker 4: That's better, is better than because he didn't get crucified.

329
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Speaker 4: He's still alive, right, right, So now you're with Christ

330
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Speaker 4: two point oh yes, And they're saying he actually specifically

331
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Speaker 4: likes you God essentially Joshua and.

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Speaker 3: Liz, who was identified in a public place as a

333
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Speaker 3: young beautiful woman.

334
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Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, but he he sees her spirit and you're like, yeah,

335
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Speaker 4: oh my God, I'm chosen, Yes exactly.

336
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Speaker 2: And when this was first introduced to me, it was

337
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Speaker 2: like he is who Jesus works through And that took

338
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Speaker 2: me a while to get my head around because you know,

339
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Speaker 2: sounds like blasphemy, right, And I can explain the weird

340
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,520
Speaker 2: coincidence that happened there but then down the track, like

341
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Speaker 2: maybe a year down the track, that were like, actually,

342
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Speaker 2: he's not who Jesus uses. He is better than Jesus.

343
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Speaker 2: Like you said, Jesus failed in his mission. You know,

344
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Speaker 2: he died and.

345
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Speaker 4: Okay, so crazy Jesus failed in his mission of yeah, wow,

346
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Speaker 4: you're living with these women at this point.

347
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Speaker 1: Correct.

348
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Speaker 2: Yes, So when they tell me about the fact that

349
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Speaker 2: he is basically that, you know, the second coming of Christ,

350
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Speaker 2: and I go away and pray about it because that's

351
00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,280
Speaker 2: what they always say. But what you know, you don't

352
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,359
Speaker 2: realize at the time is that if you're going away

353
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,159
Speaker 2: and praying about it, they're telling you to do that

354
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,440
Speaker 2: because they've already implanted a framework in your mind through

355
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,760
Speaker 2: which you interpret the world and your inner thoughts and

356
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:16,520
Speaker 2: feeling such a good cod sensation.

357
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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.

358
00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:19,920
Speaker 2: And then so you go away and pray, and all

359
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,480
Speaker 2: you're doing is reinforcing the messaging that has been super

360
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:27,399
Speaker 2: imposed on your psyche. And so it's really like this

361
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,760
Speaker 2: self surveilling kind of faith. That's what indoctrination is, right.

362
00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:32,920
Speaker 2: You're like, it's God, it's big Brother in your head,

363
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,240
Speaker 2: and I'm praying to God and I'm interpreting everything through

364
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,919
Speaker 2: the way that I've been indoctrinated.

365
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,439
Speaker 3: Looking for signs exactly and finding them everywhere, which is

366
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Speaker 3: so annoying.

367
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:47,639
Speaker 2: It's so annoying. Really yeah, this is so really inconvenient.

368
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Speaker 3: I'm so similar to my mom, Yeah, really yeah, because

369
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,919
Speaker 3: my mom was targeted by a man at a Mormon dance,

370
00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,480
Speaker 3: a singles dance, and right already from the beginning, there

371
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,479
Speaker 3: was like a really free thing where he looked like

372
00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,640
Speaker 3: a man she had dreamed about and she had had

373
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Speaker 3: and she was And this is through the framework of Mormonism,

374
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,760
Speaker 3: where there's a lot of sign interpretation and look and

375
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,639
Speaker 3: praying for a feeling and that kind of thing. So

376
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:15,720
Speaker 3: she already has that framework, and then she has this

377
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,960
Speaker 3: dream that feels really infused with meaning, and then she

378
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:23,399
Speaker 3: meets this guy and it's game over, right, like freaking

379
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,840
Speaker 3: game over, and she I can't now I'm blinking on specifics,

380
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,280
Speaker 3: but she definitely like prayed about whether he was really

381
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,280
Speaker 3: the one, and like was looking for some kind of sign.

382
00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,920
Speaker 3: And as we know what we look for, we will

383
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,320
Speaker 3: find if we look hard enough, Yes, but if we

384
00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:42,560
Speaker 3: don't understand that going into that, then you know we're

385
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:44,160
Speaker 3: just going to see the magic and that's all we're going.

386
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Speaker 1: To see exactly.

387
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,280
Speaker 3: So yeah, can you tell us briefly about your the

388
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:53,679
Speaker 3: prismatic light coincidence that sort of solidified your feeling that

389
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:55,760
Speaker 3: this was this magic was real.

390
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,000
Speaker 2: Yes, So, like there were two things that well two

391
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,680
Speaker 2: key instance that stuck with me that were like, oh wow,

392
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,120
Speaker 2: this is real. So the first one was the prismatic

393
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,880
Speaker 2: lighte and that was, you know, when I was in

394
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,800
Speaker 2: my old church. I remember before I joined, I remember

395
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,800
Speaker 2: praying and kind of having this almost vision, but it

396
00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:16,600
Speaker 2: was in my head, so really was just my imagination

397
00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:19,840
Speaker 2: of like this kind of waterfall landing on my head

398
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,720
Speaker 2: as I prayed, and it was like this, yeah, like

399
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:27,240
Speaker 2: very colorful rainbow like water that was splashing over me,

400
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:29,920
Speaker 2: and it was my Christian brain interpreted that is like

401
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,320
Speaker 2: oh the Holy Spirit. And then I think it was

402
00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,000
Speaker 2: that day another woman came up to me after the

403
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,199
Speaker 2: service and said, hey, I had this vision of you,

404
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,720
Speaker 2: and she described what I'd seen in my head, which

405
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,359
Speaker 2: look at you. There are so many ways you could

406
00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:45,280
Speaker 2: interpret it. I'd like to hear your thoughts, but I

407
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 2: feel like there's a lot of symbology that we all share,

408
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,880
Speaker 2: you know, religious symbology, and maybe that was just a coincidence.

409
00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:54,400
Speaker 2: I don't I don't know.

410
00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:56,440
Speaker 3: For all we know, there could have been a rainbow

411
00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,240
Speaker 3: that morning that you both saw. I like did a

412
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,960
Speaker 3: gesture that, like, you know, so many subconscious things going on,

413
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 3: and I rings out old times like who freaking knows?

414
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:10,200
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, yes, absolutely, so I was like, wow, that's wild,

415
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,680
Speaker 2: but didn't really think too much of it. Months later,

416
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 2: I've met these women and someone in who comes from

417
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:21,439
Speaker 2: like Korea, who was this amazing artist. She paints me

418
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:25,639
Speaker 2: and surprises me and some other girls with paintings of ourselves,

419
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:32,119
Speaker 2: and they are beautiful portraits, and for mine, not everybody else's.

420
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:34,920
Speaker 2: Everyone else's was just like this gorgeous likeness of them

421
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 2: and like a different colored background. But mine had that

422
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 2: waterfall kind of coming over my head and it had

423
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 2: sparkles in it, and it was, you know, and I

424
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 2: was praying and my head was down and my eyes

425
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:50,200
Speaker 2: were closed and it was very distinct, and I immediately

426
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,680
Speaker 2: was like, that is what I saw, and that's what

427
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:54,640
Speaker 2: someone else told me they saw, and it was this

428
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 2: wild like, oh my goodness, God is telling me he

429
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 2: wants me to be here. Second coincidence and again one

430
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,919
Speaker 2: of many, because you do, like you said, interpret the

431
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,200
Speaker 2: whole world through signs. I just saw signs everywhere because

432
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 2: that's how I was set up to think. So this

433
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:14,120
Speaker 2: second time, they've just dropped the ultimate bombshell of like this, dude,

434
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,880
Speaker 2: is the second coming. Go home and pray about it.

435
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 2: I do. I locked myself in the room for a

436
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,640
Speaker 2: couple of hours. I'm praying in tears because they tell

437
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:27,399
Speaker 2: you to do that, which is weird. So I felt

438
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 2: inspired at a certain point to get up and go

439
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 2: to the bookshelf at my parents' house and take this book,

440
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,919
Speaker 2: which was written by a Christian self identifying prophet, and

441
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 2: just open it and read the first page that I opened.

442
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,479
Speaker 2: And I opened it random page. First thing that I

443
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 2: see is the time has come. God has called his

444
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,440
Speaker 2: brides to stand up or something like that.

445
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,920
Speaker 1: And the signs chance.

446
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,239
Speaker 2: I do know, I know, right, Like how do you

447
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 2: how do you get told to go in pray and

448
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 2: you get that? Yeah? Like immediately I was like, oh,

449
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 2: it's absolutely game over, Like you know, this is it?

450
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,440
Speaker 2: God's top given me the message I asked for her.

451
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so then can you explain what an evergreen

452
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 3: and a faith.

453
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 1: Star are yes.

454
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 2: So that is the term that is used to describe

455
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 2: what I thought or interpreted to me at the beginning

456
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,640
Speaker 2: as like a nun, but the JMS version of a nun.

457
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,679
Speaker 2: So they were interchangeable terms. They both essentially meant the

458
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 2: same thing. But it's basically, you don't get married, you

459
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 2: dedicate your life to the church, and yeah, you just

460
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:43,439
Speaker 2: live like this very kind of separate your holy life.

461
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,880
Speaker 2: And I was writing such a wave of like spiritual

462
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 2: euphoria at that time, and I was when I heard

463
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:51,159
Speaker 2: about it, I was like, I want to be that

464
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:56,680
Speaker 2: Like I also just you know, I was still recovering

465
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 2: from anorexia. I didn't have any like sex drive to

466
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,919
Speaker 2: speak of. I wasn't interested in dating anybody. You know.

467
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 2: I'd grown up thinking, oh, you get married, you have

468
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 2: kids and whatever. But it looked like that the concept

469
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 2: of that seems so silly in light of what I'd

470
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 2: just learned that. I was like, oh my God, Like,

471
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 2: why would I do something as worldly as that when

472
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 2: I could live, you know, this super spiritual life, never

473
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,439
Speaker 2: get married, you know, never have to deal with all

474
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 2: that stuff. And so that's kind of how it was

475
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,120
Speaker 2: presented to me, and it was like, you are everyone's

476
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 2: the bride of Christ in this history quote unquote, but

477
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 2: evergreens or faith stars. You are like the next level

478
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 2: kind of of brides. And a lot of cults use

479
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 2: this sense of like elitism right to get you to

480
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 2: buy into something because you feel special. I feel like

481
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 2: you've been chosen. Everyone wants to feel like that. So

482
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 2: that's that's essentially what that was. What I didn't realize,

483
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 2: you know, and what I would come to learn down

484
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 2: the track, was that it meant that you had to

485
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 2: be a lot closer to thee of the group Youngsok,

486
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 2: and I was encouraged to start writing to him, and

487
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 2: so I would write letters to him and they would

488
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 2: be translated to Korean and then sent to his as

489
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 2: I learned, sent to his prison cell. And you were

490
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 2: encouraged to like write to him really warmly and make

491
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 2: him feel loved and less alone. And you know he's

492
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 2: going through this persecution, so you know, try and put

493
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 2: yourself in his head and think of what he would

494
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,360
Speaker 2: need to hear from you. And yeah, basically like keep

495
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 2: him company by writing him letters.

496
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like you're his girlfriend or something like exactly

497
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 4: keep him company in jail, and it's so disappointing to

498
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,120
Speaker 4: see what you would write compared to what he would

499
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 4: write you back.

500
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:41,919
Speaker 1: It's so heartbreaking.

501
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 2: So obviously I knew him as Pastor Joshua when I

502
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 2: was just starting to learn the Bible studies. But when

503
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 2: they told me his real name, I learned that that

504
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 2: was kind of a pseudonym for him. But he was

505
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,959
Speaker 2: actually called Jong Yongsok, which is why the group is

506
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 2: called JMS. But it also means Jesus morning Star.

507
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:00,040
Speaker 1: Got it.

508
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 3: So if we use these names interchangeably, we're still talking

509
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,880
Speaker 3: about the same man who is the god on earth.

510
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: Basically, yes, okay, great, wonderful.

511
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, you start exchanging letters, his letters start getting.

512
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,120
Speaker 1: Creepier, the asks of you start.

513
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 3: Getting creepier photos where you're in swimsuits, and just like

514
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 3: the bait and switch of this is just so extreme,

515
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,160
Speaker 3: Like you think that it's like this group of women

516
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,919
Speaker 3: who you know, you might get to be a nun

517
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 3: in a group of women who are doing Bible study,

518
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 3: but then just kidding, actually it's run by a man

519
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 3: who's convicted of rape, and actually you're supposed to be

520
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 3: one of his like brides potentially, like what a freaking

521
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 3: bait and switch.

522
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,959
Speaker 1: It's crazy, and it's twenty twelve. So there's this whole

523
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: end of the world it's about to be twenty times.

524
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 1: There's this whole end of the world narrative of prophecy

525
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 1: written into it, where you were like, I don't give

526
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: a shit, Like you're thinking about quitting college. You were like,

527
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: I have to fucking save people, Like we're running out

528
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 1: of time. It's about this is all and a very

529
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 1: like a pressure cooker. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I kind of

530
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 1: forgot about that element. Yeah. So yeah, you're in the world.

531
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: You're tripping out at the time.

532
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 2: Yes, it's like, no, you're right, there is like so

533
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 2: much going on and my little brain is having such

534
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,400
Speaker 2: a hard time Yeah, processing it all. But it helped that,

535
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 2: you know, to me at the time that I had

536
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 2: this structure in my life where I was told what

537
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 2: was right and wrong. I was given this binary way

538
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 2: to view the world that helped me compartmentalize and have

539
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 2: a sense of certainty about what I was supposed to do,

540
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 2: who I was supposed to be, how I was supposed

541
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 2: to spend my time. So, yeah, all that was happening.

542
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 2: The Nostrodramist prophecy was being preached about in the sermons.

543
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 2: You know, the end of the world is happening in

544
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 2: twenty twelve, and they talked about it like this is

545
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 2: the rapture, but the way that they did it was

546
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 2: so sneaky. They were like, it's a spiritual rapture, so

547
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 2: no one else will know you've raptured, but you'll know

548
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 2: inside of you.

549
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: And people in Korea have started already. Ps. Yeah, correct, what.

550
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 2: Does that mean?

551
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 3: They're just spiritually ascending invisibly inside but their bodies stay.

552
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 2: Wow.

553
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: Yes, that was like a confusing and very very smart.

554
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 2: Very smart, because if you're looking at each other going

555
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 2: have you.

556
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 1: Are you yeah? Y?

557
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, I need to hear about finally going to

558
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 3: Korea with a group of women and meeting this man

559
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 3: in person in prison.

560
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. So he Jong or JMS had written to me

561
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 2: and said come to Korea and visit me, and that

562
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 2: was like the ultimate honor. And if he says that,

563
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 2: you know you have to go. And a couple of

564
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 2: other people had received a letter as well like that.

565
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 2: And by that time, obviously I'd been told that I

566
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 2: was an evergreen, a faith star, and we were all

567
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 2: going to go to career and visit him, and you know,

568
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 2: visit just the compound that they have out in rural

569
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 2: South Korea that is dedicated to him and the church.

570
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 2: So there is a compound. Just to bring in another

571
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 2: little cult cliche. But something happened before I left, which

572
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 2: you know, was really one of the punctuation marks in

573
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 2: my experience. I'd moved out at this point, I'd moved

574
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 2: in with them.

575
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 3: And moved in with the girls from the group.

576
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,959
Speaker 2: Correct, Yes, so we'd all found a bigger house together.

577
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,479
Speaker 2: We all moved in. There were probably about eight of us,

578
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,479
Speaker 2: I think at the time, it was seven in this

579
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 2: big house. And so I know I was what nineteen

580
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 2: at the time, so it just first time I'd ever

581
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 2: lived out of home. I'd made the mistake of leaving

582
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 2: some print outs of a sermon under my bed, and

583
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 2: Mum must have been cleaning up my old room and

584
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 2: she came across them, and she was already suspicious about

585
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 2: this group, which made me distance myself further in made

586
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 2: her more anxious. So it was kind of like this

587
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 2: vicious cycle. But and so I wasn't really advised or

588
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 2: allowed to see her very much or see my family.

589
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 2: Munch because they were concerned that she would, you know,

590
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 2: make my faith a bit more shaky. She destabilized me

591
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 2: visited them maybe like once a week to go have

592
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 2: lunch or something. Part of it was, you know, because

593
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:24,719
Speaker 2: it's my family and I you know, wanted to see them,

594
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 2: but I think a larger reason was that they knew

595
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 2: that if they fully disallowed me from seeing my family,

596
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,479
Speaker 2: then they would escalate and they would, yeah, you know,

597
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 2: become more of a threat to them. And so yeah,

598
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 2: she was dropping me off back at the house, the

599
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 2: group house at one point, and she looked quite anxious

600
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 2: and I didn't know why, but when she stopped the

601
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 2: car outside of the house, she was like, hey, Lizzie,

602
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 2: there's something that I want to share with you, Like,

603
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 2: you know, I found some papers under your bed and

604
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 2: I looked it up and she pulls this stack of

605
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 2: print out to that she done like she's printed, and

606
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 2: immediately I knew what it was because I knew what

607
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 2: the you know, the quote unquote lies were about this group.

608
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 2: I knew that she'd found out what the group was.

609
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 2: And because I'd been told you can never look at

610
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 2: this material. It is literally the equivalent of spiritual suicide.

611
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 2: And I've been told that she was a threat and

612
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 2: that she was going to try Satan was going to

613
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 2: use her to try and get me to stop believing

614
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 2: in the truth. I immediately I had this absolute fear response.

615
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 2: I was like, get those papers away from me. I

616
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 2: don't want to see them. You don't know what you're

617
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 2: talking about. And I ran out of the car. I

618
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 2: was so like, so terrified of seeing what was there,

619
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 2: slammed the door, ran inside. My poor mother, like what

620
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 2: would that have been like for her? And you know,

621
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 2: I told my leader about it, and she was like, well,

622
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 2: you know, I kind of expect that this would happen

623
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 2: at some point. You're obviously going to need to keep

624
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 2: your distance from your moum. Satan's using her. And then

625
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 2: at some point later that day she let me know

626
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 2: my dad and my mom had both come back. So

627
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 2: obviously Mom had sat there, gone home, got dad and

628
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 2: thought we need to get her out now. So both

629
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 2: my parents come back. She was just like, go hide

630
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 2: in the closet, like get out of you will handle it, wow.

631
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 2: And so I'm hiding in the closet and my dad

632
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 2: knocks on the door and they get one of the

633
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 2: Korean leaders to open the door, and I can hear voices,

634
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 2: but I can't make out much, but it sounds like

635
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 2: Dad's upset, he's escalating. They're staying kind of like quiet,

636
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 2: and then they closed the door on him and he's

637
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 2: yelling out for me. And it was such a horrible

638
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 2: experience because I was like, I don't I'm so scared

639
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 2: of my dad, and I'm so scared of my mom

640
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 2: because like Satan's working through them, but also like they're

641
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 2: worried about me, and you know there's a part of

642
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 2: me that misses them, and you know I'm putting them

643
00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 2: through this distress. And it was just awful. It was awful. Yeah,

644
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 2: and then there was also this sense of like excitement

645
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 2: of like, oh my god, I'm moving through this wild

646
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 2: biblical story, like yeah.

647
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:13,479
Speaker 4: You're like the main character and like the New Bible embarrassing. Yeah,

648
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,720
Speaker 4: no looking back, but like that's how it's being frammed.

649
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 4: You're one of the You're one of the main things.

650
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 4: So to just like ignore your parents for an afternoon

651
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 4: isn't really that big of.

652
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 3: A d You're chosen by the Lord. Yeah, and it's

653
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 3: the end of days. Like awful, hard, but you know, worth.

654
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 2: It necessary right and like a necessary sacrifice, and and

655
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 2: then eventually they just they left. The car idled for

656
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 2: a little bit. Then they left and they were like, Okay,

657
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,399
Speaker 2: we need to get you to career, like like now.

658
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 2: And so I remember them when Dad came to the

659
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 2: door and he was trying to talk to them and

660
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 2: ask them where I was. This head leader pretended not

661
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 2: to speak any English, and so it was just this

662
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 2: way of effectively just bowering him from being able to

663
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,439
Speaker 2: have any meaningful communication with us at the time, such

664
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 2: a cliche. We had a big van and they put

665
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:07,839
Speaker 2: me in the back of the van and they threw

666
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 2: a blanket over me, and they were like, we're going

667
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 2: to drive you out of the state under cover, just

668
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 2: in case because your parents are still kind of hanging around.

669
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 2: We don't want to see where we're taking you. Drove

670
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 2: out of the state, stayed with some members in Sydney,

671
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 2: and then the next day was out light, so we

672
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 2: went out to Korea. And yeah, we went to visit

673
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:28,280
Speaker 2: this man in prison.

674
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 4: And what was that like, I mean, you have a

675
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 4: whole impression of him. He walks in this is God

676
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 4: who what does he actually look like?

677
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 2: Well, I expected to have like this big spiritual experience,

678
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 2: you know when I saw him, because I was like,

679
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,799
Speaker 2: this is like basically God, you know, or basically the

680
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 2: second coming of Christ emboddied. We were encouraged to like

681
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 2: dress up, make ourselves beautiful, because that was part of

682
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 2: the point of the group. Was like the way that

683
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 2: you should have glory to God, like we said.

684
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: Is yeah, you were nuns, but you were heart nuns.

685
00:35:55,200 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 2: Were hot nuns. Yeah yeah, ok, yes exactly, so, so

686
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 2: make up full face of makeup, my head leaders like

687
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 2: fideling with my hair, trying to make it perfect. I

688
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 2: didn't realize she was like effectively showcasing us to this man,

689
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 2: like look at the fish I caught basically.

690
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 1: And he was he going to get out of prison

691
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 1: at some point?

692
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 3: Was that yes, yes, So this isn't just like for

693
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 3: a visual thing, like the idea is he's going to

694
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 3: get out and then have his brides.

695
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 2: Yeah. Correct. And he already had bikini pictures of me

696
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,879
Speaker 2: and you know, like of all of us essentially, and

697
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 2: he had already written to me saying like he strokes

698
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 2: the pictures on the wall of his cell, like that's

699
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 2: the corresspond I received from him. Allegedly, and there was

700
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 2: this weird like I again very naive, like, did not

701
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 2: think this was ominous. It didn't think it was as

702
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 2: sinister as it really was, because I was that naive,

703
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 2: and I really thought this is some giant spiritual metaphor,

704
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 2: which sounds insane looking back, but that's that's kind of

705
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 2: what so many of us really believed because we were

706
00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:01,320
Speaker 2: so you know, earnest and sincere in beliefs and our faith,

707
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 2: it didn't even cross half our minds that this was

708
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:09,359
Speaker 2: something more than that. And yeah, anyway, so went in

709
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 2: and we were taken in by a prison guard. His

710
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 2: second in command also accompanied us in there, who is

711
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 2: actually now in prison as well for grooming, as I

712
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,280
Speaker 2: understand it. But she takes us in week head leaders

713
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 2: on the other side, there were a few of us,

714
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,359
Speaker 2: two women and a man who were visiting him, some

715
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 2: of us for the first time. And then he gets

716
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 2: brought in by a guard on the other side of

717
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 2: this lexiglass wall. This is like out in Dejen in

718
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 2: South Korea.

719
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 4: It's very Warren Jeves, you know, when he gets the

720
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 4: followers brought to him jail.

721
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, it's absolutely yes. So and he comes in

722
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 2: and he's ah, hello, hello, and he's just like this

723
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:51,800
Speaker 2: very small, very old Korean man wearing a tracksuit, you know,

724
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 2: prison track suit. They definitely made him look a lot

725
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 2: taller in his photos and a lot younger, and not

726
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 2: that bad matters at all. But I but, but.

727
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 4: But it's a little bit of a It is like

728
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 4: meeting your hinge date in real life, not your god

729
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:09,280
Speaker 4: a catfish.

730
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, But I'm.

731
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 4: Sure the cognitive dissonance is like, Okay, he's old and

732
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 4: the smaller who cares him still exactly yeah.

733
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 2: Art of percent, Like that's not the point, but I

734
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 2: think you know. But also when you bring into to

735
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 2: play the fact that you know how you are physically

736
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 2: was meant to reflect how you are spiritually.

737
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 4: Right that applied to women only and.

738
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 2: For us. And by the way, I know that I

739
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 2: seem like I'm speaking lightly about this stuff and I joke,

740
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 2: but I know you get it in that like humor.

741
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 2: It helps me talk about this sort of thing because

742
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 2: there is so many elements of the absurd to this

743
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 2: story and to the whole premise of JMS. But I

744
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,799
Speaker 2: don't mean to trivialize the horror of what who he

745
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 2: was and what the group was, and I know you

746
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 2: don't either, but I just want to clarify for any listeners, like,

747
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 2: I don't think any of this is a joke. Yeah,

748
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:03,360
Speaker 2: it's terrific. I've been healing for many, many years, but

749
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 2: I find it so much easier to find the humor

750
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 2: in it as morbid as it seems. So I hope

751
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 2: that's okay, And I don't want to offend anyone. No,

752
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 2: that's how we feel. Yeah, I feel like that's the

753
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 2: spirit of your podcast is like, yeah, you know you

754
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 2: can see that the insanity of it all as well.

755
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 2: You can break it down so well.

756
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: Thank you.

757
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, so in your book, you just you have some

758
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 3: excerpts of letters he started sending you after that which

759
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 3: are quite graphic and yeah, gnarrowly and disgusting. And then

760
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 3: can you just walk us through how you started to

761
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 3: get sick and had to go to the hospital and

762
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 3: how that pleaded a role in your exit from the group.

763
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 2: So obviously, Madam in Prison, that was a wild experience.

764
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 2: Just to wrap that little piece up, like I was

765
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 2: supposed to be a really profound experience, and I left

766
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,439
Speaker 2: feeling guilty that I hadn't felt more than I did.

767
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 2: It was just a very benign kind of like he

768
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:02,320
Speaker 2: waved us and Korean a bit, and then time was

769
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 2: up and he was shuttled out. When I came back

770
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 2: to Australia, the intensity of it kicked up a lot.

771
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 2: It was twenty twelve. It was the year quote unquote

772
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 2: year of the Rapture. And the concept behind it was

773
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 2: we were supposed to perfect ourselves, you know, physically, spiritually everything.

774
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 2: It was not just what we did, but it was

775
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 2: also just taking relentless inventory and meticulous inventory of all

776
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 2: of our thoughts and feelings and emotions and kind of

777
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 2: self monitoring and trying to achieve this impossible standard of

778
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 2: perfection in order to rapture. His letters became more graphic

779
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 2: and explicit to me and to many other women. Obviously,

780
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 2: he was still in prison. He didn't come out until

781
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, and he is now back in prison for

782
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 2: the same.

783
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 4: Charges because he just kept doing it. Yeah, absolutely, as

784
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:54,359
Speaker 4: soon as he got out down. Yeah, And so we

785
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 4: were sleeping very little. I was getting up. I mean,

786
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 4: we were supposed to only sleep four hours a night.

787
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 2: I was sleeping. I was sleeping four to six. Anyone

788
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 2: would struggle, right, But a lot of people were very puritanical,

789
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 2: and they were only four or less. The less you

790
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 2: can sleep, the better, and that's obviously very destabilizing, greatly

791
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 2: interrupts your critical thought.

792
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: And probably intentional.

793
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 2: Absolutely intentional, yes, yes, And so much of it was

794
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 2: we were worked insanely hard, and that's not unique to

795
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 2: that cult. It's common for most cults. And just this

796
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 2: sense of like busy work is very common. So it's

797
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 2: not necessarily meaningful work. It's repetitive work, it's boring work,

798
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 2: it's you know, the point of it isn't what job

799
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 2: you're doing. The point of it is just keeping you

800
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 2: kind of that you're doing a job mechanically moving along.

801
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 2: And then they started to like we were quote unquote

802
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 2: evangelizing a lot, so trying to recruit new women. That

803
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 2: was a very as I described in the book, really

804
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 2: targeted stritch hegic, scarily methodical process.

805
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, and we have to point out just really quickly

806
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 4: here that like they tell you essentially like this is

807
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:11,399
Speaker 4: what we were doing to you to get you into

808
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 4: the cast, and you're like, wait, yes, what I mean,

809
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 4: this is how we did it to you, And we

810
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 4: were like essentially pretending that we worshiped this way and

811
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 4: took all the pictures off the wall so that you

812
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 4: would like it and the German show and you're like what,

813
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 4: But it makes sense because you're like, of course they

814
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 4: had to kind of trick me to get me in

815
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 4: this group, because I wouldn't have believed it any other way,

816
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 4: and so now I have to do this to other people.

817
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 4: And the book just goes into the most amazing crevices

818
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 4: this process.

819
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 1: Ye, crevices, crevices.

820
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:39,839
Speaker 2: That's a good one.

821
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it does. Crevices.

822
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, really gets because I don't I mean, I've just

823
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 4: never heard of them like really spelling out to one

824
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 4: of their devotees the exact way that they are.

825
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 1: It's true.

826
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 3: Usually people will realize that that's what happened, and then

827
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 3: they'll justify to themselves. And I feel like it's raere.

828
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:03,399
Speaker 3: It's explicitly acknowledged like that.

829
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,320
Speaker 1: Do you think that they knew like this was basically

830
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 1: sex trafficking or were they like, this is a spiritual program.

831
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: Do you know if they were both through?

832
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 2: I mean, it's such a good question. And I think

833
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 2: there is a really fine line in cults between victim

834
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 2: and perpetrator, and I touch on this a lot, because

835
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 2: I think it's something that a lot of us, the survivors,

836
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 2: are scared to kind of touch on, because you know,

837
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 2: there's there is such a fine line, especially in a

838
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 2: cult that's centered on grooming women, and everyone in cults,

839
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 2: almost unanimously, unless you're too young or too old or

840
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 2: incapacitated in some way, is charged with recruitment, like with

841
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 2: trying to save people. For most people, that's coming from

842
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 2: a place of like utmost sincerity. You think you're saving people,

843
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 2: and you also think you're doing work that's going to,

844
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 2: you know, help you be better. And then there are

845
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:02,959
Speaker 2: the groomers who know specifically for JMS, there were people

846
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 2: who knew what was happening at a higher level and

847
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 2: who knew what the purpose of all this recruitment was,

848
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 2: who knew why they focused on getting tall, slim, beautiful

849
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 2: women into the group, and who were intentionally grooming women.

850
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 2: And I think it's almost impossible to know which was which. Yeah,

851
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 2: I think that there were one or two individuals in

852
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 2: that group specifically, like the leaders of the group locally,

853
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 2: that they knew what they were doing, and there were

854
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 2: a lot of tells, you know, there was the way

855
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 2: that they would speak to me in private, like they

856
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 2: were telling me this really important secret about how to

857
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 2: get closer to him, and would make reference to my

858
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:50,759
Speaker 2: genitals or his genitals or you know, like so confusing,

859
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 2: incredibly confusing. I was like, I really struggled understanding what

860
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 2: she meant, because again I thought it was like a metaphor.

861
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 2: And then there was a part of me that was like,

862
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 2: I don't know, oh, if it's a metaphor. And I

863
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 2: found that I did find that frightening and I didn't

864
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 2: know what to do with it. Unfortunately, I was so lucky,

865
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 2: Like I had a horrible experience. They did end up

866
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 2: restricting my food, you know, and I my eating disorder

867
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 2: came back with a vengeance, and I started having panic attacks,

868
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:21,839
Speaker 2: and I started, you know, just basically like completely capitulating

869
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 2: under the intense psychological and emotional pressure and the psychological abuse,

870
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 2: the lack of sleep, the lack of food, and the

871
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 2: worse I got, the harsher they wear on me because

872
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 2: they told me it was my fault.

873
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 1: What a perfect storm.

874
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was really a perfect storm, man. And in

875
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 2: the midst of this, I'm like, well, if I don't

876
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 2: make myself perfect, then I'm going to go to hell,

877
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 2: like I you know, sorry, I just went off on

878
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 2: a massive tangent.

879
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 3: No, that's perfect because that's how you ended up in

880
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 3: the hospital and getting the fuck away from these people

881
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:52,280
Speaker 3: for a second.

882
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, And honestly, like that's what saved me.

883
00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 2: It gave me that little bit of time outside of

884
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 2: the immersion of the group.

885
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:02,799
Speaker 1: PS. That's how I got out of mind till was

886
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 1: going to the treatment. Yeah. We have a lot to

887
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:06,400
Speaker 1: talk about.

888
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 2: We do. Yeah. Yeah, I feel terrible that, like the

889
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:11,920
Speaker 2: time's nearly up and I'm like, there's it's like we

890
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 2: haven't even gotten to that deep programming or I.

891
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 1: Mean, there's just so much there that people have to

892
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:18,399
Speaker 1: read your book.

893
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, people will just have to add able cult Bride

894
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 3: And where can people find it and find you?

895
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 2: I'm not sure how easy it is to get in

896
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 2: the States. I know that it's available on all the

897
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 2: audio platforms and Spotify that sort of thing, and I

898
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 2: think you should be able to buy the book, the

899
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:39,800
Speaker 2: physical book via Amazon. I know that's true in Australia.

900
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 1: We got it on Kendall in America, so you did.

901
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 2: Okay, there you go, Okay, that's good. To know. Yes,

902
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 2: it goes into a lot more. There's a lot more

903
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 2: to the end of that story and how I was

904
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 2: deep programmed and what the recovery journey is like is

905
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 2: a whole other conversation, as you would both Well, no,

906
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 2: that's almost like a whole story in itself, right. I

907
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 2: think that's the hardest part for people, is the leaving

908
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:07,760
Speaker 2: and realizing what happened to you and coming to terms

909
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 2: with it and trying to heal and how confusing and

910
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 2: overwhelming it is. And I think that's why I speak

911
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 2: out now, is because there is so much that's not

912
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 2: addressed in legislation, in policy, you know, at least speaking

913
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 2: for Australia, in our mental health services, in our referral systems,

914
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 2: to provide people the help that they need and the

915
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 2: support that they need when they come out of a group.

916
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 2: You know, when people come out, they are incredibly unsafe,

917
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 2: incredibly destabilized, don't know who they are, don't know what

918
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 2: the world is, how to deal with the world. They

919
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 2: don't often have any real skills that they can get

920
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 2: a job with. They often don't have any money, they

921
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 2: don't have any contacts. There's so much wookworking against them,

922
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:54,279
Speaker 2: and it is the time when people are most likely

923
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 2: to take their own lives, and it's a really really

924
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 2: critical time when people need like intensives and there is

925
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 2: almost nothing. And then there's also the legislation side of it,

926
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 2: where coercive control laws. I actually believe it's a lot

927
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 2: better in the United States, is my understanding.

928
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:12,279
Speaker 3: But it depends on the state, right of course, very

929
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 3: state dependent.

930
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,439
Speaker 2: Yeah that's the case with us too. But I think

931
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:18,360
Speaker 2: what we're seeing over here is finally there's this movement

932
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 2: towards recognizing coercive control and criminalizing it, which is groundbreaking.

933
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 2: I mean, it's taken way too many tragic events for

934
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 2: that to be the case, but that's almost always how

935
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 2: it happens, right. It doesn't necessarily provide legislation that works

936
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 2: for people who have come from the kind of scaled

937
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 2: coercive control that we see in high control groups. It's

938
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 2: really more about those interpersonal one and one dynamics, and

939
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 2: that doesn't always translate. And a huge part of trauma

940
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:51,320
Speaker 2: when you come out of a cult is not being believed.

941
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 2: That's very retraumatizing, as I'm sure you've experienced as well.

942
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 2: There's so much rhetoric out there, that's like, why would

943
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 2: you choose that? You know, could you be so gullible? Like?

944
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,480
Speaker 2: And that's I'm sure you as well. Often it's like,

945
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 2: well that's water if it ducks back, because I know

946
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 2: you just don't understand how that works. And that's why

947
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 2: I tried to break down those dynamics a bit more

948
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:14,719
Speaker 2: in my book and explain what that process is like

949
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 2: externally and also internally. But legislation hasn't brought up yet.

950
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 2: And it's hard because it's a pattern of behavior. It's

951
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:25,760
Speaker 2: not an instance. It's not a single thing that happens.

952
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 2: It is a pattern over a long period of time

953
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:31,839
Speaker 2: that constitutes the crime, not one thing, one event.

954
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 3: Well, and that is why I am glad that in

955
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 3: your book, not only do you break down a lot

956
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 3: of the psychological dynamics, but like we talked about earlier,

957
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:42,400
Speaker 3: step by step of like here's how I believe the

958
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 3: next thing, and here's how I was primed for the

959
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 3: next thing, and here's why the next thing wasn't that

960
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 3: much of a stretch from the previous thing. And we

961
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 3: talked about it so much today because I think just

962
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:53,800
Speaker 3: being able to observe how that happens and how gradual

963
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 3: it is is just instrumental for you know, raising more

964
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 3: understanding about how this works.

965
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:04,399
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's that it's that understanding piece, and that's what

966
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 2: I wish I had known when I was that age,

967
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:08,839
Speaker 2: Like I wish I had that understanding. My talkit as

968
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 2: we all do. Right, it's building that community understanding and

969
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:16,320
Speaker 2: the recognition that it quite literally could happen to anyone.

970
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,840
Speaker 2: You just have to be perhaps in a vulnerable space

971
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 2: in your life, which we all are at some point.

972
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 2: And then it's also like you know, the frontline workers

973
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:27,319
Speaker 2: recognizing being able to pick up on the signs of

974
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:31,279
Speaker 2: brainwashing and cults and that kind of activity, because I

975
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 2: know that when my mum called the AFP when I

976
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:38,359
Speaker 2: was dying, like effectively dying in this group, they were like, well,

977
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 2: is she there against her will? And we know that

978
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 2: if they'd come to our house and knocked on the door,

979
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 2: I would have said, absolutely, I'm here of my own

980
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 2: free will. I love being here. This is the best

981
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 2: experience of my life and I'm not leaving. So what's

982
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 2: their remit? And so one of the things that I'm

983
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 2: working on now, like I've kind of I do struggle

984
00:50:57,680 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 2: with being online a lot because it's such a brutal

985
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:04,040
Speaker 2: space to exist in watching everything happening in the States

986
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 2: as well, all I can't it's it's retraumatizing in so

987
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:11,840
Speaker 2: many ways, right, just see what's playing out, and even

988
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 2: more so for you who are living in it. So

989
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 2: our thoughts are definitely like all of us survivors over

990
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 2: here in Australia, our thoughts are so with all of

991
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 2: you in the US and what you must be going through.

992
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 2: But yeah, one of the things that I'm working on

993
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 2: is I'm working with our federal police at the moment

994
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 2: in helping to develop like what to increase frontline police

995
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 2: understanding of how to understand what a cult looks like

996
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 2: from the outside.

997
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 1: That's awesome.

998
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,359
Speaker 2: How do they and what's the triage system look like?

999
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 2: How do they refer like what resources can they give?

1000
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 2: You know, what questions should they ask? When should they

1001
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 2: just like check back in again, it's a more intuitive

1002
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:55,720
Speaker 2: way of assessing a situation than just kicking a box.

1003
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 2: I'm excited about where that work takes me. And yeah,

1004
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 2: I think the whole line world is really if I

1005
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 2: find it quite well mean, as I'm sure you do understandably.

1006
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah, well, you're doing amazing work and we

1007
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 4: so love you writing the book, coming on doing your advocacy.

1008
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 1: It's all very important, So thank you.

1009
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:20,360
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me, and thank you

1010
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:21,240
Speaker 2: for letting me ramble.

1011
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:26,240
Speaker 4: No, that's perfect likewise, and we'll see you online forever

1012
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:26,839
Speaker 4: on there again.

1013
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:31,800
Speaker 1: Last week we asked if I would join this cult.

1014
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 1: I think the answer was kind of yeah.

1015
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 3: I think we both maybe would depending.

1016
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:38,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it turns out it would be the

1017
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 4: wrong decision by a long shot. But Liz, we totally

1018
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 4: get how you ended up where you ended up. And

1019
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 4: your book is phenomenal.

1020
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 3: And y'all should go buy it. And it is called

1021
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 3: Cult Bride, How I was Brainwashed and how he Broke free.

1022
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, and when I.

1023
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 4: First heard the title Cult Ride, I was like, oh,

1024
00:52:57,560 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 4: she got married to somebody in the cult. I didn't

1025
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:03,240
Speaker 4: realize she was like marrying Jesus essentially, that was coming

1026
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 4: through a prophet.

1027
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. Pretty wild, pretty wild.

1028
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:08,440
Speaker 3: I mean, thank actually didn't have to actually do it

1029
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 3: in the end. Thank god that did not get to

1030
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:10,760
Speaker 3: that point.

1031
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1032
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, Okay, please rate those five stars. We would appreciate it,

1033
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 4: follow us, subscribe, do whatever you can.

1034
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:23,799
Speaker 3: Please buy our merch at exactly rightstore dot com.

1035
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 1: This is the begging portion of the show where.

1036
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:33,440
Speaker 4: We try to drum up some interaction because we need

1037
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:34,399
Speaker 4: to be better about it, Wila.

1038
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 1: We need to be on social media.

1039
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 4: We need to be making videos and stuff and communicating

1040
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:39,360
Speaker 4: with the people.

1041
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:41,319
Speaker 1: Listening to the show because we Yeah, I love you

1042
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:42,279
Speaker 1: guys so much. We do so.

1043
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:47,040
Speaker 4: Anyway, remember to follow your gut, to watch out for

1044
00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:48,240
Speaker 4: red flax.

1045
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 1: And never ever trust to me. Hey bye.

1046
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 3: This has been an Exactly Right production hosted by me Lola.

1047
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 1: Blanc and Me Megan Elizabeth. Senior producer is G. Holly.

1048
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:03,760
Speaker 3: This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

1049
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 4: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain and our guest booker

1050
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 4: is Patrick Kottner.

1051
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 1: Our theme song was composed by Holly Ambert.

1052
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:14,760
Speaker 4: Church Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia

1053
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:16,400
Speaker 4: Hartstark and Daniel Kramer.

1054
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 3: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast

1055
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 3: or on TikTok at trust Me coult podcast.

1056
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 4: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation.

1057
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 4: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

1058
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:30,960
Speaker 3: Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio, app, Apple Podcasts,

1059
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:32,640
Speaker 3: or wherever you get your podcasts.