WEBVTT - SCOTUS Rebukes Trump & Student Visas Revoked 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:07.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:12.240 The answer is, I always abide by the courts, always 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:15.360 abide by it, and will appeal. I never did deify 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:18.000 a court owner. Well, I always abide by the courts, 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:19.280 and then I'll have to appeal it. 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:23.120 President Trump has said several times that he always obeys 0:00:23.200 --> 0:00:27.280 court orders. But there's evidence that his administration has not 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:31.159 been obeying the courts, even the Supreme Court, and it 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:35.040 appears that justices have had enough. Thus, the Court issued 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:40.360 an emergency order with incredible speed in extraordinary circumstances on 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:44.400 Saturday at one in the morning, within just eight hours 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:48.080 of getting an application, before the government could even file 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:52.040 its response, before the Fifth Circuit could issue its decision, 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:56.760 and before Justice Samuel Alito could write his dissent, the 0:00:57.040 --> 0:01:00.680 justices directed the government not to remove a group of 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:05.280 Venezuelan detainees from the United States until further order of 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:10.720 the Court. Only the two most conservative justices dissented. Joining 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:14.080 me is constitutional law expert Michael Dorf, a professor at 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:17.800 Cornell Law School, Mike disorder in the middle of the night, 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:21.080 without waiting for the government's response, without waiting for the 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:25.280 Fifth Circuit's decision and without waiting for Justice Alito to 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:29.440 write his dissent. Does this show that the Justices don't 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:32.679 trust the Trump administration to obey their orders? 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:39.120 Absolutely. The Court had in an earlier case said that 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:44.320 the government should not remove any of the Venezuelans without 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:48.080 first giving them notice and an opportunity to file a 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:53.160 habeas corpus petition. Here, the Venezuelans who are being held 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:56.840 in Texas received notices in English, which most of them 0:01:56.840 --> 0:02:00.680 don't speak or read, saying that they would be removed imminitely. 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:03.560 There was no mention of the right to file a 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:07.000 havieas petition, and so when somebody got in touch with 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:11.320 the ACLU, the lawyers moved as quickly as they could. 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:14.799 When the Federal District Judd didn't act within just over 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:18.760 two hours, they realized that the government might move the 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:20.960 case by taking these people out of the country sending 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:23.799 them Tel Salvador, and so they went to the Supreme 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:28.200 Court seeking emergency relief. And the fact that the Justices 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:30.880 acted when they did in the middle of the night 0:02:31.440 --> 0:02:34.200 so quickly without the response, as you say, I think 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:37.680 clearly indicates at least said injustice is felt the same 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:41.000 way as the lawyers did for these. 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:43.559 Venezuelans, namely, the government couldn't. 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:48.080 Be trusted to abide by the justice's previous command. 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:51.720 Would you think things were happening behind the scenes that 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:55.480 they didn't wait for Alito's dissent to be written, which 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:56.359 they usually do. 0:02:57.000 --> 0:03:00.000 But behind the scenes, if you mean, were the justices 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:03.400 consulting with one another about whether to release the order 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:07.160 and then have a descent published the next day. I'm 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:10.400 sure there was discussion of that. I don't think that's 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:13.520 in any way, you know, suspicious. 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:15.680 Or not that unusual. If you have something in a 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:19.880 cruly emergency posture and someone who is going to descend 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:25.079 from the Court's disposition needs time to write, then you say, okay, 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:28.680 well write later. There have been occasions when the Court 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:33.440 as a whole has acted and then the opinion for 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:36.240 the majority comes out a few hours or a few 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:40.120 days later, because they recognized the need to act quickly. 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:44.760 It was a short order, eleven lines, no explanation, but 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:50.520 Justice Alito's scathing descent was five pages. He objected to 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:56.160 granting unprecedented and legally questionable relief because we had no 0:03:56.280 --> 0:04:00.240 good reason to think that under the circumstances, issue in 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:04.280 order at midnight was necessary or appropriate. Does this mean 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:06.880 he still believes that the Trump administration is listening to 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:07.960 orders of courts. 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:12.080 Well, it either means that he believes that or he 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:15.960 doesn't care, right, I mean, he might think that whether 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:21.240 or not the administration is going to comply, we meaning 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:25.320 the court, have to abide by our prescedural rules, and 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:28.200 got every eye across every t In fact, what he 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:30.799 said at the end of his opinion was his descent, 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:33.840 was you know, the executive branch needs to apply to 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:36.599 the law, but so do we. What he didn't say, 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:38.800 of course, was well, what happens if the executive branch 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:43.120 isn't complying with judicial orders? Does that mean, as the 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:47.839 majority clearly thought, that you take extraordinary measures. 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:51.400 For quite some time now, courts have been listening to 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:56.680 DOJ lawyers either not give them answers or just blatantly 0:04:57.000 --> 0:05:01.400 lie about what's happening. The DOJ lawyers multiple courts that 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:04.800 they didn't intend to deport the migrants on Friday or Saturday. 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:05.279 And what is this? 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:09.600 Due to the credibility of the DOJ in federal courts, I. 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:13.080 Think it's a serious blow to that credibility that was 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:17.719 already quite weak. You know, there's some evidence that the 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:22.960 lawyers who are appearing in court are not fully informed 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:27.360 about what the decision makers and the Trump administration plan 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:31.000 to do or have done already. So you know, it's 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:35.080 possible to have some sympathy for some of those lawyers, although, 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:39.240 of course, when one of the lawyers frankly admitted that 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:44.039 he was soon thereafter removed by Attorney General Bondi. So 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:47.080 it's clear that at the highest level of the Justice 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:51.359 Department there is no disagreement with what President Trump and 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:53.719 other actors in the administration are doing. So you know, 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:57.720 as I say, you configured perhaps some of the statements 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:01.359 that turn out to be false by Department lawyers to 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:04.760 their ignorance, but you know, not all of it. 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:09.839 President Trump and the administration continue to say that they'll 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:14.200 follow court orders. They're obeying court orders, although Trump did 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:17.600 complain Monday on being stymied at every turn by the 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:21.440 courts and argue that the administration can't hold trial for 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:25.680 migrants it plans to deport because it would hold them 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:28.720 up too much. I mean, so there's still this facade 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:30.600 of we're listening to court orders. 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:34.640 Yeah, so there's a lot there. First, I think it's 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:40.359 inarguable that they are not fully complying with orders of 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:43.480 the lower courts, and there is pretty good evidence that 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:47.120 they are not complying in good faith with the Supreme Court. So, 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:52.440 in addition to not giving the Venezuelans the notice to 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:57.520 which they are entitled, the administration in the Abrago Garcia 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:03.480 case has flatly refused us to comply with its obligation 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:07.560 said by the Supreme Court to facilitate his return. With 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:11.400 respect to the President's claim that, you know, giving these 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:15.840 migrants due process would be a too onerous burden that 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:19.000 assumes that what they're entitled to is a kind of 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:22.800 full dress criminal trial. But that's not true. There are 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:29.320 statutory guidelines that allow for very much expedited hearings, but 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:32.360 they do require some kind of a hearing. You can't just, 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:36.560 you know, have people in unmarked than scooping people up 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:38.960 off the street and then shipping them off to a 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:43.000 foreign country that's not even their home country, when there are, 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:46.920 as an Abregio Garcia's case, court orders forbidding that, or, 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:50.000 as in some of these other cases, no real evidence 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:54.240 that they are subject to deportation at this point, right, 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:57.920 it's simply not true that you have to have a 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:00.920 full dress trial before you can room with somebody. Now, 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:04.360 having said that, President Trump is right that if he 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:09.560 were to attempt the kind of massive deportation of everybody 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:14.000 in the United States who entered undocumented, that it would 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:17.720 be difficult to do that in a timely manner because 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:20.760 there are procedures that have to be followed. But he 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:23.960 also doesn't have the manpower, he doesn't have the budget 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:25.640 do anything like that anyway. 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:31.400 With the Brigo Garcia, Trump and other administration officials seem 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:33.800 to be making it clear that they have no plans 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:38.600 to return him to the United States, and they're instead 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:44.199 playing this game of blaming it on the l Salvador President. 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:46.520 Yeah, I mean, I think that is a game. I 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:50.520 think that is in pretty clear defiance of at least 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:53.800 the federal district judges order. Now, you can say that 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:56.959 in the earlier case that all the Supreme Court did 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:01.719 was to ask the federal district judge to clarify what 0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:06.720 she meant by facilitate. But you know, the court pretty 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:11.760 clearly approved of the obligation for facilitation, and you know, 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:16.800 there was a remarkable decision by a unanimous re judge 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:21.400 panel of the Fourth Circuit last week in which Judge J. 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:25.240 Harvey Wilkinson, the third who's a very conservative appointee of 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:30.680 Ronald Reagan, really called the administration to task for doing 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:35.640 literally nothing to facilitate a Brego Garcia's return and warned 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:39.840 in pretty ominous terms of the potential death of the 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:43.360 law here. So you know, in the face of that, 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:48.800 the Trump administration is continuing nonetheless to you know, simply 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:52.439 not do anything for Abrego Garcia. And what's so remarkable 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:56.640 about this is that, you know, they could say, well, 0:09:56.640 --> 0:09:59.880 we're going to comply, and then ask the president of Ilseal, 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:03.600 hey can we have Abregiol Garcia back, and he might 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:05.800 then say, well, no, I'd really rather keep him because 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:08.520 after all, he is at El Salvador in national Now. 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:11.679 It's true we sent him back there by a mistake, 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:14.880 and there was a judicial order forbidding that, but that 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:18.280 order doesn't bind the government of El Salvador. But the 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:21.680 coup administration isn't even willing to ask, and they could 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:24.240 they could ask. This wouldn't be good faith compliance, but 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:26.640 they could ask while winking and then they could go 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:28.400 back to the judge and said, well, we asked and 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:30.720 he said no. But they're not even willing to do 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:34.960 that because they see this as a matter of power politics. 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:38.720 I mean, until now, the Conservatives have been giving Trump 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:42.520 narrow procedural wins that have allowed him to, for the 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:45.960 most part, run his agenda. Does this mark a turning 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:50.880 point in the majority's approach to the administration, I hope so. 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:56.080 I have been highly critical of the Roberts Court for 0:10:56.400 --> 0:11:00.440 some time now for treating Donald Trump as an visual 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:05.280 and his administration in their official capacity, as normal, right, 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:07.720 treating them the way you would treat any president who 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:10.960 you know, occasionally pushes the edge of the envelope of 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:14.960 their authority, but then when subject to a ruling, complies, 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:18.040 which has been proof of every Democratic and Republican president, 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:21.439 you know, for as long as we can remember, accepting 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:24.839 you know, extraordinary circumstances like Lincoln during the Civil War, 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:27.240 something like that. But you see this the sort of 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:31.000 treating him as normal and thinking about you know, presidents 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:33.800 in general in a lot of circumstances. The one that 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:37.160 was sort of most disturbing to me was the immunity ruling. 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:38.400 Last year, which. 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:39.600 The Course said, well, you know, we don't want to 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:43.160 hamstring the president because in the future there might be 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:46.000 you know, sort of tit for tab retaliation against former 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:48.640 presidents back to lead to all sorts of trouble, sort 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:51.920 of thinking about the long term and ignoring what is 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:55.360 essentially an emergency right in front of them. And I 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:57.560 was a little concerned that that was what was going 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:00.559 on in the last few months, as this second job 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:04.080 administration proved to be much more radical than the first. 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:07.480 But it looks like and I'm hopeful that you know, 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:11.679 the Court is beginning to realize that they're not dealing with. 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:16.320 A normal, law abiding president and administration, but a you know, 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:20.959 a person who's seriously threatening constitutional democracy, and that they 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:21.959 need to stand up to him. 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:25.160 Last Thursday, the Court announced a special session on May 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:31.120 fifteenth to hear arguments on Trump's executive order upending birthright citizenship. 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:34.160 Why would the Court agree to hear a case like 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:40.679 that when Trump's executive order seems to obviously violate the Constitution. 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:42.640 Well, you know, the Court. 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:47.120 Did not take the case to decide the substantive issue, 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:50.720 but the Solicitor General didn't even ask the Court to 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:54.319 decide a substantive issue. All of the court is deciding 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:59.200 is the authority of a federal district judge to give 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:03.680 a so called nationwide injunction. That has been a long 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:09.600 running source of controversy actually in both Democratic and Republican administrations. 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:15.480 It's been frustrating to presidents of either party when a 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:20.360 single federal district judge, often selected by the plaintiffs because 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:23.360 they know their ideological leanings. You can do a little 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:26.520 bit of forum shopping or even judge shopping by deciding 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:28.800 where to file. But a single district judge sort of 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:33.520 sets nationwide policy, at least for the short run, and 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:36.319 so some of the justices have for a long time 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:41.360 been concerned about this phenomenon. I think that it's extremely 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:46.400 unlikely that the Court will in this case rule on 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:50.920 the birthright citizenship issue as a substantive matter. Now, that 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:56.240 doesn't stop the media or actually even President Pump from 0:13:56.440 --> 0:14:00.679 portraying this as something else entirely. You know, as soon 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:02.720 as the Court announced that it was going to hear argument, 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:06.400 Trump said something like, well, you know, this is very misunderstood. 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:09.800 That's about slavery. He said by that he was referring 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:14.520 to the birthright citizenship clause of the fourteenth Amendment. So 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:18.000 he seems to think, or at least he's saying that 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:20.800 this case is about the substance, but it really isn't. 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:26.480 This goes along with the Trump administration's misinterpretation of even 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:30.080 the Supreme Court ruling on a Brigo Garcia. I mean, 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:34.960 you heard the Attorney General misinterpret the ruling and another 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:38.840 Trump deputy, Stephen Miller, say that they won that case. 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:42.040 So misinterpret is a very generous way to describe it. 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:44.000 I would say, lie about I. 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:46.680 Do think that, you know, in the case of Trump himself, 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:50.560 it is sometimes misinterpretation. He's not a lawyer, you know, 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:54.360 he never admits that he's wrong about anything, and so 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:57.920 in his case there's a kind of combination of ignorance 0:14:57.960 --> 0:15:01.200 and willfulness. I think some of these other people clearly 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:06.200 know better, but they're counting on the you know, social 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:10.400 media and echo chambers and sort of Trump friendly media 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:14.640 to amplify their points without pointing out the way in 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:16.880 which they're you know, just simple lying. 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:19.960 So he's great to get your insights, Mike, thanks so much. 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:24.600 That's Professor Michael Dorff of Cornell Law School. Coming up next, 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:28.560 Foreign students are fighting back in court as the Trump 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:33.600 administration revokes Visa's I'm June Gross when you're listening to Bloomberg. 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:38.360 President Donald Trump and his administration are resisting a court 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:42.960 order to bring Kilmore Albrego Garcia, who was wrongly deported 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:46.600 to l Salvador, back to the US, claiming he's a 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:48.760 member of the MS thirteen gang. 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:52.400 They want this man to be brought back into our 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:55.240 country where he can be free, and to say as 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:58.880 a happily Maryland you know, happily they call him the 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:04.480 Maryland demand. He's a Maryland father. Now here's a violent person. 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:08.960 And Trump's borders are Tom Homan stands by the deportation 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:13.200 of hundreds of venezuel And in salvadornment to the maximum 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:14.520 security prison there. 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:20.800 I believe removing public safety tress and terras designated terrass 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:22.600 to that prison al Salvador. 0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:26.440 My guest is immigration law expert Leon Fresco, a partner 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:29.200 at Holland and Knight. We've seen pictures of him with 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:33.360 a US senator. Supposedly he's been moved to a different prison. 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:36.720 What's happening in his case is the government making any 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:38.320 move to bring him back. 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:40.840 Well, the government is saying that they will never bring 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:44.760 him back. And what becomes complicated about that is what 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:47.880 if one day there actually is a court order that 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:51.000 orders him to come back. And the way that would 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:52.720 materialize would be as followed. 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:53.400 You have. 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:58.680 The District Court is engaging in discovery to find out what, when, where, 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:02.080 or how who would regard the compliance to the Supreme 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:08.040 Court's order to facilitate the reimportation of mister Abrago Garcia 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:11.320 back into the United States. The District Court doesn't think 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:14.000 at the moment that the government has done anything visa 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:17.000 VI that and the government is saying that it's not 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:21.840 doing anything visa VI trying to reimport mister Abrago Garcia 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:24.879 back into the United States. So they actually appeal this 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:28.000 determination to the Fourth Circuit. The Fourth Circuit in a 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:32.919 very strongly worded decision by Judge Harvey Wilkinson, the conservative judge, 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:36.720 said that he was not going to micromanage the District 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:39.600 Court and that it was very important that the government 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:44.240 actually follow the rule of law here and not try 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:47.520 to circumvent the rule of law. Is what is happening, 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:51.159 and so now the government hasn't taken that opinion and 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:53.680 tried to appeal it again to the Supreme Court because 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:56.639 I think they understand that it would be feudal until 0:17:56.640 --> 0:18:00.520 there's some sort of feeing up as to what facilitates means. 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:04.200 The government is currently trying to argue that facilitation means 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.199 that if a brago Garcia actually can arrive at a 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:11.360 port of entry, that he'd be readmitted in knowing that 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:13.840 he's not going to be released from a detention facility 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:16.760 in Elsavador, so that that would not be possible. 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:20.080 And Leon, what's the main legal question going to be 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:20.720 in the case. 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:24.960 Here's the crux of it is the district court, then 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:27.920 followed by the appellate court, followed by the Supreme Court 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:30.639 going to rule that a brago Garcia is in the 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:35.560 constructive custody of the United States, meaning that but for 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:40.199 the United States paying for a Brego Garcia to be 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:44.200 in custody and having this arrangement with Alsavador to keep 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:48.639 a brago Garcia in custody, that he wouldn't be in custody. 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:51.520 And so that's going to be the question. And if 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:54.679 the court rules that a brago Garcia is in the 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:59.040 constructive custody of the United States, then they will say 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:02.800 that he needs to be released from that custody, and 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:05.320 by not doing that, the people who do not release 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:08.520 him from that custody will be held in contempt of court. 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:13.240 And that's where if the Trump administration doesn't comply with 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:18.160 that order, you get to your quote unquote potential constitutional crisis. 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:21.439 We're not there yet, and I think jud Cenis in 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:25.240 the District Court in Maryland is doing a very careful 0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:29.520 job to try to develop the most fulsome record possible 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:33.280 of who, what, when, where, so that that determination when 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:36.320 it gets to the Supreme Court, everybody can know every 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:40.119 detail about how this arrangement was made with Elsavador, who's 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:44.359 paying for it, who's making the decisions, et cetera. But 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:49.200 if those facts are ultimately not shared, then it contempt 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:52.280 may happen from not sharing those facts. But that's what 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:54.480 this is really going to come down to. Is Abrego 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:58.680 Garcia in the constructive custody of the United States. If 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:00.600 he's not, then I I think it's going to be 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:02.680 very hard because the court is going to say, look, 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:07.000 if El Salvador has its own reason for detaining Abrego Garcia, 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:09.840 and that's the end of it. It's going to be 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:11.840 very hard for a court to do anything about that. 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:15.399 But if the court determines that he's in the constructive 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:18.040 custody of the United States, then they may hold the 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:21.480 people who refuse to release him from that custody in 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:22.400 contempt of court. 0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:25.080 So this is sort of besides the point. But I 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:27.480 wanted to get your opinion on this. Do you think 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:30.800 that that picture of him sitting there in you know, 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:34.760 everyday close with a senator, you know, in a restaurant 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:37.320 of some kind, do you think that did more harm 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:38.639 than good to his cause? 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:39.800 Well? 0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:42.840 I think the problem is regardless of what you think 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:46.679 about the picture, the truth remains the same, which is 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:50.160 he's in detention. And so the question is how long 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:53.840 is he supposed to be in detention for and what 0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:56.919 is the reason for his detention. Even if he was 0:20:56.920 --> 0:21:00.679 deported to al Savador, if he was walking around Elsavador, 0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:05.200 presumably that would still be less compelling than the fact 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:08.840 that he's actually in detention for the foreseeable future. It's 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:11.840 not clear what he's in detention for and how long 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:14.359 he's supposed to be in there, and so those are 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:17.200 the determinations the courts are going to have to ultimately 0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:21.760 make because one of the interesting facts here is it's 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:24.680 fair enough for the Trump administration to say, look, even 0:21:24.720 --> 0:21:27.040 if you send him back, we're going to just send 0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:31.520 him back again, which would be true because the reason 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:35.679 he was given deportation relief in the first place was 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:39.159 because he feared gang violence in al Savador. That actually, 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:43.480 Alsavador has done a very good job of reducing to 0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:46.280 a very high extent, and they certainly have shown that 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:50.240 they're no longer unwilling or unable or incapable of preventing 0:21:50.280 --> 0:21:53.880 gang violence in Alsavador. So that reason the government will 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:55.439 likely be able to show in a court is no 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:58.520 longer valid. But now if they have a new reason, 0:21:58.600 --> 0:22:01.639 which is that he's going to be viewed as a terrorist, 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:06.160 which is what the president of al Savador said, he said, 0:22:06.160 --> 0:22:11.400 why would I release a terrorist from my facility, then 0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:16.840 that will be its own reason for relief from deportation, 0:22:16.960 --> 0:22:20.160 which would have to then lead the administration to then 0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:24.919 either send them to a non Alsavador country or withhold 0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:28.399 his deportation again. So this is the problem that is 0:22:28.440 --> 0:22:30.879 being faced by this case. It's presenting all sorts of 0:22:31.240 --> 0:22:34.359 new challenges literally on a daily basis. So yes, the 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:37.720 picture is not helpful as a political matter, but the 0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:40.440 courts are going to be looking at this prospectively and 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:44.080 asking what is his future in Al Savador if we 0:22:44.160 --> 0:22:46.960 don't act, and then they will make determinations based off 0:22:47.000 --> 0:22:47.240 of that. 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:51.720 So let's turn out to student visas, because over fifteen 0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:56.080 hundred students foreign students have had their visas revoked, according 0:22:56.119 --> 0:22:59.240 to Inside Higher Ed. Why are these visas being revoked. 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:03.119 Visas are being revoked for several reasons. The main and 0:23:03.240 --> 0:23:06.240 initial reason that was in the news was because the 0:23:06.280 --> 0:23:11.040 students had participated in violent protests on campus, whether it 0:23:11.119 --> 0:23:15.679 was pro Hamas or other violent protests on campus, and 0:23:15.720 --> 0:23:18.800 so the idea was that those students would have their 0:23:18.920 --> 0:23:22.160 visas revoked. And when you revoke a visa, all that 0:23:22.200 --> 0:23:25.159 means in principle is the person is in a limbo 0:23:25.280 --> 0:23:28.919 where they are actually allowed to stay in the United States, 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:31.000 but if they leave, they can't come back. They have 0:23:31.080 --> 0:23:34.120 to ask for new permission to re enter, which they 0:23:34.160 --> 0:23:39.000 won't get, and so they're stuck. And that's normally what 0:23:39.040 --> 0:23:41.840 happens when a visa's revoked. But what the administration is 0:23:41.880 --> 0:23:45.120 trying to do now is it's actually trying to say 0:23:45.160 --> 0:23:48.480 in addition to revoking your visa for some segment of 0:23:48.520 --> 0:23:50.439 these students, and by the way, not all of them 0:23:50.480 --> 0:23:53.200 are protesters. Some of them will be people who've had 0:23:53.320 --> 0:23:56.760 arrests for things that college kids get arrested for all 0:23:56.800 --> 0:23:59.080 the time. So they'll go to a bar and they'll 0:23:59.080 --> 0:24:01.720 have a drunken disorderly This is a big one that 0:24:01.840 --> 0:24:04.880 I'm seeing from many people reaching out to my law 0:24:04.960 --> 0:24:08.120 practice to actually talk to me. You'll see things like that, 0:24:08.320 --> 0:24:12.320 like drunk and disorderly conduct. You know, rowdy college students 0:24:12.320 --> 0:24:15.439 being college students is not unique to just Americans that 0:24:15.800 --> 0:24:18.640