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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 2: The answer is, I always abide by the courts, always

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Speaker 2: abide by it, and will appeal. I never did deify

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Speaker 2: a court owner. Well, I always abide by the courts,

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Speaker 2: and then I'll have to appeal it.

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Speaker 3: President Trump has said several times that he always obeys

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Speaker 3: court orders. But there's evidence that his administration has not

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Speaker 3: been obeying the courts, even the Supreme Court, and it

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Speaker 3: appears that justices have had enough. Thus, the Court issued

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Speaker 3: an emergency order with incredible speed in extraordinary circumstances on

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Speaker 3: Saturday at one in the morning, within just eight hours

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Speaker 3: of getting an application, before the government could even file

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Speaker 3: its response, before the Fifth Circuit could issue its decision,

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Speaker 3: and before Justice Samuel Alito could write his dissent, the

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Speaker 3: justices directed the government not to remove a group of

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Speaker 3: Venezuelan detainees from the United States until further order of

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Speaker 3: the Court. Only the two most conservative justices dissented. Joining

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Speaker 3: me is constitutional law expert Michael Dorf, a professor at

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Speaker 3: Cornell Law School, Mike disorder in the middle of the night,

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Speaker 3: without waiting for the government's response, without waiting for the

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Speaker 3: Fifth Circuit's decision and without waiting for Justice Alito to

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Speaker 3: write his dissent. Does this show that the Justices don't

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Speaker 3: trust the Trump administration to obey their orders?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. The Court had in an earlier case said that

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Speaker 1: the government should not remove any of the Venezuelans without

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Speaker 1: first giving them notice and an opportunity to file a

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Speaker 1: habeas corpus petition. Here, the Venezuelans who are being held

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Speaker 1: in Texas received notices in English, which most of them

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Speaker 1: don't speak or read, saying that they would be removed imminitely.

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Speaker 1: There was no mention of the right to file a

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Speaker 1: havieas petition, and so when somebody got in touch with

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Speaker 1: the ACLU, the lawyers moved as quickly as they could.

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Speaker 1: When the Federal District Judd didn't act within just over

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Speaker 1: two hours, they realized that the government might move the

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Speaker 1: case by taking these people out of the country sending

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Speaker 1: them Tel Salvador, and so they went to the Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court seeking emergency relief. And the fact that the Justices

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Speaker 1: acted when they did in the middle of the night

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Speaker 1: so quickly without the response, as you say, I think

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Speaker 1: clearly indicates at least said injustice is felt the same

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Speaker 1: way as the lawyers did for these.

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Speaker 4: Venezuelans, namely, the government couldn't.

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Speaker 1: Be trusted to abide by the justice's previous command.

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Speaker 3: Would you think things were happening behind the scenes that

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Speaker 3: they didn't wait for Alito's dissent to be written, which

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Speaker 3: they usually do.

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Speaker 5: But behind the scenes, if you mean, were the justices

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Speaker 5: consulting with one another about whether to release the order

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Speaker 5: and then have a descent published the next day. I'm

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Speaker 5: sure there was discussion of that. I don't think that's

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Speaker 5: in any way, you know, suspicious.

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Speaker 1: Or not that unusual. If you have something in a

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Speaker 1: cruly emergency posture and someone who is going to descend

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Speaker 1: from the Court's disposition needs time to write, then you say, okay,

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Speaker 1: well write later. There have been occasions when the Court

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Speaker 1: as a whole has acted and then the opinion for

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Speaker 1: the majority comes out a few hours or a few

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Speaker 1: days later, because they recognized the need to act quickly.

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Speaker 3: It was a short order, eleven lines, no explanation, but

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Speaker 3: Justice Alito's scathing descent was five pages. He objected to

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Speaker 3: granting unprecedented and legally questionable relief because we had no

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Speaker 3: good reason to think that under the circumstances, issue in

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Speaker 3: order at midnight was necessary or appropriate. Does this mean

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Speaker 3: he still believes that the Trump administration is listening to

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Speaker 3: orders of courts.

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Speaker 1: Well, it either means that he believes that or he

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Speaker 1: doesn't care, right, I mean, he might think that whether

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Speaker 1: or not the administration is going to comply, we meaning

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Speaker 1: the court, have to abide by our prescedural rules, and

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Speaker 1: got every eye across every t In fact, what he

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Speaker 1: said at the end of his opinion was his descent,

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Speaker 1: was you know, the executive branch needs to apply to

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Speaker 1: the law, but so do we. What he didn't say,

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Speaker 1: of course, was well, what happens if the executive branch

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Speaker 1: isn't complying with judicial orders? Does that mean, as the

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Speaker 1: majority clearly thought, that you take extraordinary measures.

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Speaker 3: For quite some time now, courts have been listening to

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Speaker 3: DOJ lawyers either not give them answers or just blatantly

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Speaker 3: lie about what's happening. The DOJ lawyers multiple courts that

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Speaker 3: they didn't intend to deport the migrants on Friday or Saturday.

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Speaker 1: And what is this?

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Speaker 3: Due to the credibility of the DOJ in federal courts, I.

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Speaker 1: Think it's a serious blow to that credibility that was

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Speaker 1: already quite weak. You know, there's some evidence that the

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Speaker 1: lawyers who are appearing in court are not fully informed

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Speaker 1: about what the decision makers and the Trump administration plan

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Speaker 1: to do or have done already. So you know, it's

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Speaker 1: possible to have some sympathy for some of those lawyers, although,

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Speaker 1: of course, when one of the lawyers frankly admitted that

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Speaker 1: he was soon thereafter removed by Attorney General Bondi. So

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Speaker 1: it's clear that at the highest level of the Justice

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Speaker 1: Department there is no disagreement with what President Trump and

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Speaker 1: other actors in the administration are doing. So you know,

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Speaker 1: as I say, you configured perhaps some of the statements

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Speaker 1: that turn out to be false by Department lawyers to

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Speaker 1: their ignorance, but you know, not all of it.

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Speaker 3: President Trump and the administration continue to say that they'll

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Speaker 3: follow court orders. They're obeying court orders, although Trump did

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Speaker 3: complain Monday on being stymied at every turn by the

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Speaker 3: courts and argue that the administration can't hold trial for

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Speaker 3: migrants it plans to deport because it would hold them

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Speaker 3: up too much. I mean, so there's still this facade

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Speaker 3: of we're listening to court orders.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so there's a lot there. First, I think it's

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Speaker 1: inarguable that they are not fully complying with orders of

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Speaker 1: the lower courts, and there is pretty good evidence that

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Speaker 1: they are not complying in good faith with the Supreme Court. So,

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Speaker 1: in addition to not giving the Venezuelans the notice to

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Speaker 1: which they are entitled, the administration in the Abrago Garcia

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Speaker 1: case has flatly refused us to comply with its obligation

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Speaker 1: said by the Supreme Court to facilitate his return. With

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Speaker 1: respect to the President's claim that, you know, giving these

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Speaker 1: migrants due process would be a too onerous burden that

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Speaker 1: assumes that what they're entitled to is a kind of

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Speaker 1: full dress criminal trial. But that's not true. There are

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Speaker 1: statutory guidelines that allow for very much expedited hearings, but

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Speaker 1: they do require some kind of a hearing. You can't just,

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Speaker 1: you know, have people in unmarked than scooping people up

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Speaker 1: off the street and then shipping them off to a

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Speaker 1: foreign country that's not even their home country, when there are,

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Speaker 1: as an Abregio Garcia's case, court orders forbidding that, or,

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Speaker 1: as in some of these other cases, no real evidence

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Speaker 1: that they are subject to deportation at this point, right,

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Speaker 1: it's simply not true that you have to have a

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Speaker 1: full dress trial before you can room with somebody. Now,

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Speaker 1: having said that, President Trump is right that if he

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Speaker 1: were to attempt the kind of massive deportation of everybody

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Speaker 1: in the United States who entered undocumented, that it would

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Speaker 1: be difficult to do that in a timely manner because

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Speaker 1: there are procedures that have to be followed. But he

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Speaker 1: also doesn't have the manpower, he doesn't have the budget

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Speaker 1: do anything like that anyway.

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Speaker 3: With the Brigo Garcia, Trump and other administration officials seem

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Speaker 3: to be making it clear that they have no plans

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Speaker 3: to return him to the United States, and they're instead

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Speaker 3: playing this game of blaming it on the l Salvador President.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that is a game. I

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Speaker 1: think that is in pretty clear defiance of at least

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Speaker 1: the federal district judges order. Now, you can say that

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Speaker 1: in the earlier case that all the Supreme Court did

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Speaker 1: was to ask the federal district judge to clarify what

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Speaker 1: she meant by facilitate. But you know, the court pretty

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Speaker 1: clearly approved of the obligation for facilitation, and you know,

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Speaker 1: there was a remarkable decision by a unanimous re judge

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Speaker 1: panel of the Fourth Circuit last week in which Judge J.

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Speaker 1: Harvey Wilkinson, the third who's a very conservative appointee of

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Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan, really called the administration to task for doing

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Speaker 1: literally nothing to facilitate a Brego Garcia's return and warned

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Speaker 1: in pretty ominous terms of the potential death of the

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Speaker 1: law here. So you know, in the face of that,

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Speaker 1: the Trump administration is continuing nonetheless to you know, simply

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Speaker 1: not do anything for Abrego Garcia. And what's so remarkable

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Speaker 1: about this is that, you know, they could say, well,

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Speaker 1: we're going to comply, and then ask the president of Ilseal,

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Speaker 1: hey can we have Abregiol Garcia back, and he might

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Speaker 1: then say, well, no, I'd really rather keep him because

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Speaker 1: after all, he is at El Salvador in national Now.

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Speaker 1: It's true we sent him back there by a mistake,

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Speaker 1: and there was a judicial order forbidding that, but that

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Speaker 1: order doesn't bind the government of El Salvador. But the

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Speaker 1: coup administration isn't even willing to ask, and they could

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Speaker 1: they could ask. This wouldn't be good faith compliance, but

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Speaker 1: they could ask while winking and then they could go

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Speaker 1: back to the judge and said, well, we asked and

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Speaker 1: he said no. But they're not even willing to do

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Speaker 1: that because they see this as a matter of power politics.

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Speaker 3: I mean, until now, the Conservatives have been giving Trump

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Speaker 3: narrow procedural wins that have allowed him to, for the

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Speaker 3: most part, run his agenda. Does this mark a turning

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Speaker 3: point in the majority's approach to the administration, I hope so.

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Speaker 1: I have been highly critical of the Roberts Court for

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Speaker 1: some time now for treating Donald Trump as an visual

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Speaker 1: and his administration in their official capacity, as normal, right,

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Speaker 1: treating them the way you would treat any president who

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Speaker 1: you know, occasionally pushes the edge of the envelope of

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Speaker 1: their authority, but then when subject to a ruling, complies,

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Speaker 1: which has been proof of every Democratic and Republican president,

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Speaker 1: you know, for as long as we can remember, accepting

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Speaker 1: you know, extraordinary circumstances like Lincoln during the Civil War,

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Speaker 1: something like that. But you see this the sort of

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Speaker 1: treating him as normal and thinking about you know, presidents

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Speaker 1: in general in a lot of circumstances. The one that

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Speaker 1: was sort of most disturbing to me was the immunity ruling.

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Speaker 4: Last year, which.

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Speaker 1: The Course said, well, you know, we don't want to

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Speaker 1: hamstring the president because in the future there might be

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Speaker 1: you know, sort of tit for tab retaliation against former

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Speaker 1: presidents back to lead to all sorts of trouble, sort

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Speaker 1: of thinking about the long term and ignoring what is

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Speaker 1: essentially an emergency right in front of them. And I

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Speaker 1: was a little concerned that that was what was going

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Speaker 1: on in the last few months, as this second job

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Speaker 1: administration proved to be much more radical than the first.

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Speaker 1: But it looks like and I'm hopeful that you know,

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Speaker 1: the Court is beginning to realize that they're not dealing with.

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Speaker 6: A normal, law abiding president and administration, but a you know,

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Speaker 6: a person who's seriously threatening constitutional democracy, and that they

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Speaker 6: need to stand up to him.

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Speaker 3: Last Thursday, the Court announced a special session on May

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Speaker 3: fifteenth to hear arguments on Trump's executive order upending birthright citizenship.

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Speaker 3: Why would the Court agree to hear a case like

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Speaker 3: that when Trump's executive order seems to obviously violate the Constitution.

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Speaker 5: Well, you know, the Court.

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Speaker 1: Did not take the case to decide the substantive issue,

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Speaker 1: but the Solicitor General didn't even ask the Court to

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Speaker 1: decide a substantive issue. All of the court is deciding

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Speaker 1: is the authority of a federal district judge to give

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Speaker 1: a so called nationwide injunction. That has been a long

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Speaker 1: running source of controversy actually in both Democratic and Republican administrations.

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Speaker 1: It's been frustrating to presidents of either party when a

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Speaker 1: single federal district judge, often selected by the plaintiffs because

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Speaker 1: they know their ideological leanings. You can do a little

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Speaker 1: bit of forum shopping or even judge shopping by deciding

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Speaker 1: where to file. But a single district judge sort of

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Speaker 1: sets nationwide policy, at least for the short run, and

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Speaker 1: so some of the justices have for a long time

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Speaker 1: been concerned about this phenomenon. I think that it's extremely

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Speaker 1: unlikely that the Court will in this case rule on

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Speaker 1: the birthright citizenship issue as a substantive matter. Now, that

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Speaker 1: doesn't stop the media or actually even President Pump from

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Speaker 1: portraying this as something else entirely. You know, as soon

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Speaker 1: as the Court announced that it was going to hear argument,

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Speaker 1: Trump said something like, well, you know, this is very misunderstood.

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Speaker 1: That's about slavery. He said by that he was referring

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Speaker 1: to the birthright citizenship clause of the fourteenth Amendment. So

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Speaker 1: he seems to think, or at least he's saying that

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Speaker 1: this case is about the substance, but it really isn't.

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Speaker 3: This goes along with the Trump administration's misinterpretation of even

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Speaker 3: the Supreme Court ruling on a Brigo Garcia. I mean,

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Speaker 3: you heard the Attorney General misinterpret the ruling and another

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Speaker 3: Trump deputy, Stephen Miller, say that they won that case.

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Speaker 1: So misinterpret is a very generous way to describe it.

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Speaker 5: I would say, lie about I.

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Speaker 1: Do think that, you know, in the case of Trump himself,

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Speaker 1: it is sometimes misinterpretation. He's not a lawyer, you know,

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Speaker 1: he never admits that he's wrong about anything, and so

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Speaker 1: in his case there's a kind of combination of ignorance

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Speaker 1: and willfulness. I think some of these other people clearly

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Speaker 1: know better, but they're counting on the you know, social

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Speaker 1: media and echo chambers and sort of Trump friendly media

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Speaker 1: to amplify their points without pointing out the way in

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Speaker 1: which they're you know, just simple lying.

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Speaker 3: So he's great to get your insights, Mike, thanks so much.

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Speaker 3: That's Professor Michael Dorff of Cornell Law School. Coming up next,

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Speaker 3: Foreign students are fighting back in court as the Trump

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Speaker 3: administration revokes Visa's I'm June Gross when you're listening to Bloomberg.

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Speaker 3: President Donald Trump and his administration are resisting a court

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Speaker 3: order to bring Kilmore Albrego Garcia, who was wrongly deported

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Speaker 3: to l Salvador, back to the US, claiming he's a

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Speaker 3: member of the MS thirteen gang.

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Speaker 2: They want this man to be brought back into our

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Speaker 2: country where he can be free, and to say as

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Speaker 2: a happily Maryland you know, happily they call him the

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Speaker 2: Maryland demand. He's a Maryland father. Now here's a violent person.

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Speaker 3: And Trump's borders are Tom Homan stands by the deportation

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Speaker 3: of hundreds of venezuel And in salvadornment to the maximum

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Speaker 3: security prison there.

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Speaker 4: I believe removing public safety tress and terras designated terrass

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Speaker 4: to that prison al Salvador.

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Speaker 3: My guest is immigration law expert Leon Fresco, a partner

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Speaker 3: at Holland and Knight. We've seen pictures of him with

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Speaker 3: a US senator. Supposedly he's been moved to a different prison.

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Speaker 3: What's happening in his case is the government making any

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Speaker 3: move to bring him back.

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Speaker 4: Well, the government is saying that they will never bring

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Speaker 4: him back. And what becomes complicated about that is what

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Speaker 4: if one day there actually is a court order that

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Speaker 4: orders him to come back. And the way that would

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Speaker 4: materialize would be as followed.

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Speaker 1: You have.

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Speaker 4: The District Court is engaging in discovery to find out what, when, where,

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Speaker 4: or how who would regard the compliance to the Supreme

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Speaker 4: Court's order to facilitate the reimportation of mister Abrago Garcia

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Speaker 4: back into the United States. The District Court doesn't think

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Speaker 4: at the moment that the government has done anything visa

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Speaker 4: VI that and the government is saying that it's not

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Speaker 4: doing anything visa VI trying to reimport mister Abrago Garcia

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Speaker 4: back into the United States. So they actually appeal this

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Speaker 4: determination to the Fourth Circuit. The Fourth Circuit in a

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Speaker 4: very strongly worded decision by Judge Harvey Wilkinson, the conservative judge,

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Speaker 4: said that he was not going to micromanage the District

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Speaker 4: Court and that it was very important that the government

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Speaker 4: actually follow the rule of law here and not try

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Speaker 4: to circumvent the rule of law. Is what is happening,

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Speaker 4: and so now the government hasn't taken that opinion and

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Speaker 4: tried to appeal it again to the Supreme Court because

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Speaker 4: I think they understand that it would be feudal until

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Speaker 4: there's some sort of feeing up as to what facilitates means.

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Speaker 4: The government is currently trying to argue that facilitation means

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Speaker 4: that if a brago Garcia actually can arrive at a

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Speaker 4: port of entry, that he'd be readmitted in knowing that

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Speaker 4: he's not going to be released from a detention facility

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Speaker 4: in Elsavador, so that that would not be possible.

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Speaker 3: And Leon, what's the main legal question going to be

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Speaker 3: in the case.

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Speaker 4: Here's the crux of it is the district court, then

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Speaker 4: followed by the appellate court, followed by the Supreme Court

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Speaker 4: going to rule that a brago Garcia is in the

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Speaker 4: constructive custody of the United States, meaning that but for

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Speaker 4: the United States paying for a Brego Garcia to be

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Speaker 4: in custody and having this arrangement with Alsavador to keep

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Speaker 4: a brago Garcia in custody, that he wouldn't be in custody.

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Speaker 4: And so that's going to be the question. And if

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Speaker 4: the court rules that a brago Garcia is in the

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Speaker 4: constructive custody of the United States, then they will say

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Speaker 4: that he needs to be released from that custody, and

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Speaker 4: by not doing that, the people who do not release

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Speaker 4: him from that custody will be held in contempt of court.

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Speaker 4: And that's where if the Trump administration doesn't comply with

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Speaker 4: that order, you get to your quote unquote potential constitutional crisis.

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Speaker 4: We're not there yet, and I think jud Cenis in

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Speaker 4: the District Court in Maryland is doing a very careful

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Speaker 4: job to try to develop the most fulsome record possible

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Speaker 4: of who, what, when, where, so that that determination when

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Speaker 4: it gets to the Supreme Court, everybody can know every

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Speaker 4: detail about how this arrangement was made with Elsavador, who's

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Speaker 4: paying for it, who's making the decisions, et cetera. But

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Speaker 4: if those facts are ultimately not shared, then it contempt

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Speaker 4: may happen from not sharing those facts. But that's what

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Speaker 4: this is really going to come down to. Is Abrego

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Speaker 4: Garcia in the constructive custody of the United States. If

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Speaker 4: he's not, then I I think it's going to be

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Speaker 4: very hard because the court is going to say, look,

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Speaker 4: if El Salvador has its own reason for detaining Abrego Garcia,

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Speaker 4: and that's the end of it. It's going to be

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Speaker 4: very hard for a court to do anything about that.

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Speaker 4: But if the court determines that he's in the constructive

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Speaker 4: custody of the United States, then they may hold the

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Speaker 4: people who refuse to release him from that custody in

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Speaker 4: contempt of court.

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Speaker 3: So this is sort of besides the point. But I

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Speaker 3: wanted to get your opinion on this. Do you think

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Speaker 3: that that picture of him sitting there in you know,

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Speaker 3: everyday close with a senator, you know, in a restaurant

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Speaker 3: of some kind, do you think that did more harm

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Speaker 3: than good to his cause?

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Speaker 1: Well?

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Speaker 4: I think the problem is regardless of what you think

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Speaker 4: about the picture, the truth remains the same, which is

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Speaker 4: he's in detention. And so the question is how long

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Speaker 4: is he supposed to be in detention for and what

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Speaker 4: is the reason for his detention. Even if he was

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Speaker 4: deported to al Savador, if he was walking around Elsavador,

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Speaker 4: presumably that would still be less compelling than the fact

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Speaker 4: that he's actually in detention for the foreseeable future. It's

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Speaker 4: not clear what he's in detention for and how long

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Speaker 4: he's supposed to be in there, and so those are

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Speaker 4: the determinations the courts are going to have to ultimately

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Speaker 4: make because one of the interesting facts here is it's

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Speaker 4: fair enough for the Trump administration to say, look, even

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Speaker 4: if you send him back, we're going to just send

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Speaker 4: him back again, which would be true because the reason

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Speaker 4: he was given deportation relief in the first place was

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Speaker 4: because he feared gang violence in al Savador. That actually,

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Speaker 4: Alsavador has done a very good job of reducing to

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Speaker 4: a very high extent, and they certainly have shown that

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Speaker 4: they're no longer unwilling or unable or incapable of preventing

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Speaker 4: gang violence in Alsavador. So that reason the government will

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Speaker 4: likely be able to show in a court is no

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Speaker 4: longer valid. But now if they have a new reason,

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Speaker 4: which is that he's going to be viewed as a terrorist,

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Speaker 4: which is what the president of al Savador said, he said,

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Speaker 4: why would I release a terrorist from my facility, then

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Speaker 4: that will be its own reason for relief from deportation,

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Speaker 4: which would have to then lead the administration to then

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Speaker 4: either send them to a non Alsavador country or withhold

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Speaker 4: his deportation again. So this is the problem that is

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Speaker 4: being faced by this case. It's presenting all sorts of

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Speaker 4: new challenges literally on a daily basis. So yes, the

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Speaker 4: picture is not helpful as a political matter, but the

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Speaker 4: courts are going to be looking at this prospectively and

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Speaker 4: asking what is his future in Al Savador if we

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Speaker 4: don't act, and then they will make determinations based off

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Speaker 4: of that.

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Speaker 3: So let's turn out to student visas, because over fifteen

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Speaker 3: hundred students foreign students have had their visas revoked, according

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Speaker 3: to Inside Higher Ed. Why are these visas being revoked.

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Speaker 4: Visas are being revoked for several reasons. The main and

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Speaker 4: initial reason that was in the news was because the

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Speaker 4: students had participated in violent protests on campus, whether it

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Speaker 4: was pro Hamas or other violent protests on campus, and

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Speaker 4: so the idea was that those students would have their

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Speaker 4: visas revoked. And when you revoke a visa, all that

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Speaker 4: means in principle is the person is in a limbo

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Speaker 4: where they are actually allowed to stay in the United States,

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Speaker 4: but if they leave, they can't come back. They have

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Speaker 4: to ask for new permission to re enter, which they

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Speaker 4: won't get, and so they're stuck. And that's normally what

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Speaker 4: happens when a visa's revoked. But what the administration is

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Speaker 4: trying to do now is it's actually trying to say

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Speaker 4: in addition to revoking your visa for some segment of

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Speaker 4: these students, and by the way, not all of them

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Speaker 4: are protesters. Some of them will be people who've had

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Speaker 4: arrests for things that college kids get arrested for all

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Speaker 4: the time. So they'll go to a bar and they'll

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Speaker 4: have a drunken disorderly This is a big one that

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Speaker 4: I'm seeing from many people reaching out to my law

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Speaker 4: practice to actually talk to me. You'll see things like that,

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Speaker 4: like drunk and disorderly conduct. You know, rowdy college students

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Speaker 4: being college students is not unique to just Americans that

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Speaker 4: you know, foreign nationals will do this too. But if

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Speaker 4: you have any interaction with law enforcement, then they're evoking

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Speaker 4: your visa and sometimes terminating your status in the student

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Speaker 4: Visa database. And that's where the litigation is coming from

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Speaker 4: because if your student Visa database status is terminated, it

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Speaker 4: creates two problems. One from the student's perspective, the student

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Speaker 4: is worry now that they're any legal status, and unlike

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Speaker 4: other populations of people in this country that may or

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Speaker 4: may not have concern about illegal status because what they're

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Speaker 4: trying to do is earn enough money in the US

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Speaker 4: to just survive and stay alive. This student visa population

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Speaker 4: that doesn't have that concern of trying to survive and

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Speaker 4: stay alive. They're trying to be here legally and study.

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Speaker 4: So having a concern that they're here illegally is quite

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Speaker 4: grave for them, and they don't want to be here illegally,

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Speaker 4: and so many of them are suing in the court.

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Speaker 4: But it also as a concern for the school. The

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Speaker 4: schools are often asking me, well, should I allow this

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Speaker 4: student to keep studying now that the government has terminated

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Speaker 4: the status, because will I be considered as someone who's

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Speaker 4: harboring a fugitive or inducing a person here without status

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Speaker 4: to remain in the United States. And the last thing

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Speaker 4: I want to do is be prosecuted for this. So

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Speaker 4: it's creating all of those problems, and students are now

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Speaker 4: suing on us, many of them in all different courts

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Speaker 4: across the United States, saying that the government can revoke

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Speaker 4: my visa, that's fine, But even when they do that,

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Speaker 4: I'm allowed to stay. They can't revoke my existence in

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Speaker 4: the student database. All the government can do is put

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Speaker 4: me in deportation proceeedings, which from the government's persone is

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Speaker 4: very onerous. This is the whole point of everything they're

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Speaker 4: trying to do. They're not trying to increase the number

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Speaker 4: of people in deportation proceedings. They're trying to decrease it

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Speaker 4: because there's millions of people in the backlog. So what

435
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 4: they're trying to do is terminate these students existence in

436
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 4: the database so that the students leave. But if the

437
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 4: students are successful, which they've currently been in a lot

438
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 4: of district courts in saying that the government doesn't have

439
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 4: that authority, the only authority they have is to play

440
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 4: students in removal proceedings and let them defend themselves, then

441
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 4: the students are going to be allowed to stay because

442
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 4: the government probably isn't going to want to place thousands

443
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 4: of students and deportation proceedings to add to the already

444
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 4: large number of people in deportation proceedings.

445
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 3: Leon do these student visas have expiration dates, so they

446
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 3: would expire without the government doing anything.

447
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 4: Well, what happens is the visa is actually a stamp

448
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 4: that is placed in your passport that says how many

449
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 4: days do you have to enter the United States? So

450
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 4: if I get a student visa place in my passport

451
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 4: that expires on May first of twenty twenty seven. The

452
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 4: only significance of that date May first, twenty twenty seven

453
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,479
Speaker 4: is that's the last date I'm allowed to fly into

454
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 4: the United States and enter as a student.

455
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 1: That's it.

456
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,640
Speaker 4: Once I've entered as a student. The way the system

457
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,199
Speaker 4: works is you are admitted as a student for however

458
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 4: long it takes to finish your degree. It has nothing

459
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,159
Speaker 4: to do with the stamp. And so you just have

460
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 4: to show that you're working in due diligence towards your

461
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 4: degree and as long as you show that you can

462
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 4: exceed that May first, twenty twenty seven deadline. And so

463
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 4: from that perspective, if the visa is revoked, the only

464
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 4: thing that is revoked is the stamp, the ability to

465
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 4: re enter the country. The status of the student isn't

466
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 4: revoked unless the student is placed in removal proceedings. Now,

467
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 4: what the government is trying to do is it trying

468
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 4: to get students to leave by saying we're not going

469
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 4: to put you in deportation proceedings. We're going to try

470
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,360
Speaker 4: this novel move, which is to say that we are

471
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 4: terminating you from the student visa database, which means that

472
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 4: the school can't allow you to enroll because the school

473
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,640
Speaker 4: is only by regulation allowed to enroll people who are

474
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 4: in the student visa database. And so that's what students

475
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 4: are suing about, saying, there's nothing in the regulations that

476
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 4: mentions this, that allows this, that permits this. If you

477
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 4: don't want me in the country, this isn't the way

478
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 4: to do it. You have to place me in removal

479
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 4: proceeedings in order to do it. You can't just terminate

480
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 4: me from the student visa database. But again, the reason

481
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 4: they're doing this is to one create the apprehension in

482
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 4: the student so that the student leaves voluntarily, but number two,

483
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 4: to create the apprehension in the school because the school

484
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 4: knows very clearly in the regulations it shouldn't be allowing

485
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 4: foreign students to study there if they're not actively on

486
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 4: the student visa database. And so the schools are very

487
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 4: concerned about the ramifications for them visa the harboring or

488
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 4: inducement of undocumented foreign nationals if they allow those students

489
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:20,719
Speaker 4: to remain studying in the school.

490
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 3: So let's say you have a student visa and it

491
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 3: takes you fifteen years to get through school. That's okay.

492
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,239
Speaker 4: You're allowed to do that. Within this perspective. You have

493
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 4: to take a certain amount of courses per year. And

494
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 4: so if you fall under that number of courses you're

495
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 4: taking per year, then you're not needing your student visa

496
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 4: status and you can be terminated. But for instance, I'll

497
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 4: give you an example of where fifteen years would make sense.

498
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 4: There are some students who come in here to study it,

499
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 4: let's say and over Exeter fancy high schools, if you

500
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 4: know what I mean. They have these fancy private high schools.

501
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 4: So you come on a student visa to study on

502
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 4: that student visa expires, let's say May first of twenty

503
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 4: twenty seven. Let's say you never leave. So you finish

504
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 4: high school, you get accepted into Harvard, you go to Harvard,

505
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 4: you get accepted into Yale Law School, you go to

506
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 4: Yale Law School, and then maybe you want to get

507
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 4: a PhD in economics. You could have done all of

508
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 4: that without getting a new visa. You could have just

509
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 4: stayed in America the fifteen years and done that.

510
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 3: Coming up next on the Bloomberg Law Show, I'll continue

511
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 3: this conversation with immigration law expert Leon Fresco of Honda Knight.

512
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 3: The Trump administration is moving to fast track asylum cases.

513
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 3: I'm June Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg. Let's turn

514
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 3: to asylum now and the Trump Administration's efforts to fast

515
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 3: track asylum cases. The Executive Office for Immigration Review had

516
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 3: more than four million pending cases in the last quarter

517
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 3: of twenty twenty four, including one point five million pending

518
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 3: asylum cases. How is the Trump administration trying to fast track?

519
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 4: What is happening is the following. Normally, when you apply

520
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 4: for asylum, the way an asylum case gets decided is

521
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 4: you go to the court, you testify, You say why

522
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 4: you're afraid to be in the country. The government cross

523
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 4: examined you, the judge might ask a few questions, the

524
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 4: attorneys will have an argument, and the judge will make

525
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 4: a decision. And those cases can take anywhere from four

526
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 4: hours to two three days, depending on how much intensity

527
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 4: there is to the case, how contentious it is, how

528
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 4: many witnesses there are, if a translator is needed, because

529
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 4: the translator obviously doubles the length of the preceding because

530
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 4: everything needs to be said twice, and so those are

531
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 4: very intensive. In terms of time, and so you have,

532
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 4: like you said, four million cases, how do you do

533
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 4: all of those cases? Impossible. There's only three hundred and

534
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 4: sixty five days in the year, so a judge could

535
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 4: only conceivably do one judge three hundred and sixty five

536
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 4: asylum cases, say at most for years. They don't even

537
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 4: get close to that. But I'm just saying as a

538
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 4: theoretical that's if you were the most committed judge who

539
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 4: never wanted to go home and keep the immigration for

540
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 4: it open all day, you could do three hundred and

541
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 4: sixty five cases a year. And so obviously we're never

542
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 4: going to bring down the dent of the four million.

543
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 4: So what the Trump administration wants to do is basically

544
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 4: introduce the concept of summary judgment or emotion to dismiss

545
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,719
Speaker 4: whatever you would call it in civil court, which is

546
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 4: that if a person is presenting an asylum claim that

547
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 4: even if everything they are saying is true, you still

548
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 4: wouldn't legally add up to an asylum clane. Then they

549
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 4: want the judges to dismiss those, to look for those

550
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 4: and dismiss those so that you don't have the need

551
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 4: of doing what I just described testimony, cross examination, argument, questions,

552
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 4: et cetera. The problem is with this concept that many

553
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 4: people who don't have lawyers don't know how to phrase

554
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 4: their asylum cling. So what happens is you get to

555
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 4: the court, you start asking questions, and you may determine

556
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 4: that a person indeed as a valid asylum claim because

557
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 4: you're asking them the question, they're answering them. They're not

558
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 4: tailoring their experience to the laws, so they don't know

559
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 4: what they need to do to qualify to get asylum.

560
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 4: They can only tell you why they're afraid and what

561
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 4: happened to them. And so the fear is that if

562
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 4: you allow this summary judgment flash motion to this misconcept

563
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 4: to enter into immigration court, you may get denials in

564
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 4: cases like that.

565
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 3: So let's be frank about asylum. People just automatically file

566
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 3: for asylum to prevent being deported. For example, the Trump

567
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 3: administration is removing temporary protected status for Venezuelan, Haitians, Cubans,

568
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 3: and Nicer Roguin's. The vast majority are going to automatically

569
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 3: file for asylum. I mean, that's why you have so

570
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 3: many asylum claims.

571
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 4: That's the protective final feature, that is the one thing

572
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 4: that can delay your deportation for as long as possible

573
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 4: is asylum. Now, the problem is it will depend what

574
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 4: country you're coming from. If you're from Venezuela, then to

575
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,760
Speaker 4: make a claim that you fear the dictator, et cetera,

576
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 4: becomes a much more complicated case because there is a

577
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,720
Speaker 4: dictator and you can say you fear the dictator, Whereas

578
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,320
Speaker 4: if you're from a country that is just economically depressed,

579
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 4: then it's perhaps more difficult because then what are you

580
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 4: saying is your fear there? And people try to make

581
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 4: claims of various natures, but those are always denied, you know,

582
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 4: eight eighty five percent, ninety percent denial rates for all

583
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 4: of those kinds of asylum cases, and so really it's

584
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 4: just going to depend. Many times. You'll see you if

585
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 4: you go on a website called track drac, they actually

586
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 4: will list the judges and their grant rates on asylum claims,

587
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 4: and you will see that even within courts, because you

588
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 4: could say, well, in one court it's different than another

589
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 4: because different populations present themselves in different courts. But if

590
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 4: you're within the same court, then the judges will see

591
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,399
Speaker 4: the same types of cases. You'll see that there are

592
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 4: courts where there are judges that deny ninety percent of cases,

593
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 4: and there are judges that grant ninety percent of cases,

594
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 4: and so from that perspective, it really is sort of

595
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 4: a look of the draw that decides whether you get

596
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 4: asylum or not.

597
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 3: So, putting aside the problem that some migrants may not

598
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 3: have attorneys, if the facts are clear, as you said,

599
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,800
Speaker 3: can an immigration court judge make a decision quickly?

600
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,240
Speaker 4: Oh, absolutely, no doubt about it. And I think they could,

601
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 4: And I think there's a scenario where a motion to

602
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 4: dismiss or summary judgment type of scenario is appropriate if

603
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 4: you can show that even if everything the person said

604
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 4: is true, they don't meet the asylum claim. So, for instance,

605
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,799
Speaker 4: I'll give you an absurd example, but just to put

606
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,879
Speaker 4: it out there, let's say somebody said that they were

607
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 4: coming from Norway and they are going to be killed

608
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 4: in Norway, and it could be one hundred percent true,

609
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:06,439
Speaker 4: but the person who's going to kill them is their

610
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 4: bookie for gambling debts. Then you have a one hundred

611
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 4: percent true plane that you will be killed in Norway.

612
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,320
Speaker 4: I have no doubt. But that is not a claim

613
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,760
Speaker 4: that's protected by asylum law, because we don't protect people

614
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 4: from their bookie for gambling debts, and so that's one

615
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,280
Speaker 4: that you could dismiss, and if you saw that written somewhere,

616
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 4: you could dismiss it, no doubt about it. But the

617
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 4: question is if you're going to set up a situation

618
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 4: where that can be abused. And this is always what

619
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 4: people worry about. Either through the person didn't have counsel,

620
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 4: so they couldn't really write the claim with any kind

621
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 4: of sophistication, and you need to actually ask them about it.

622
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 4: So that's one concern. But secondly, if the denials are

623
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 4: just denied just because that's what they're going to do,

624
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 4: is they're going to just deny them on mass and

625
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 4: force people to take appeals and force people to go

626
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 4: to the courts of appeals just because they want to

627
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 4: engender as many orders of removal as possible. That's sort

628
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 4: of the larger fear. Now, will that happen, will that

629
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,760
Speaker 4: not happen? Unclear? You know, we always want to presume

630
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 4: that the rule of law will be followed and they

631
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 4: won't just start denying cases for no reason. But the

632
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,959
Speaker 4: fear from I think some in the immigration bar would

633
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 4: be that this would be used for that reason that

634
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 4: you would just get a one line order. Your asylum

635
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 4: case is denied, and you weren't given any indication of

636
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 4: why that was so.

637
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 3: During Trump's first administration, didn't immigration officials issue directives limiting

638
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 3: asylum approvals and impose quotas for judges?

639
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 4: Well, they imposed quotas for case management, and they certainly

640
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 4: made a lot of judicial decisions from the Attorney General's

641
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 4: Office that talked about things like how you establish a

642
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 4: social group based asylum claim. That definitely tightened up who

643
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 4: could qualify for asylum. That is true, but there was

644
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:01,760
Speaker 4: not then and there currently isn't for to summarily deny

645
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 4: hundreds of thousands of asylum planes. Let's say, if that's

646
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 4: what ends up happening, unclear, that will happen and just

647
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 4: give them all one line in orders. We will see

648
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 4: if that happens. If that happens, that will certainly be

649
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 4: something that goes through a lot of scrutiny. Unclear if

650
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 4: that's what this is going to lead to. But that's

651
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 4: the question that some have on their mind. You know,

652
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,240
Speaker 4: one would presume that the rule of law will be followed,

653
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 4: that that's not what's going to happen. If it happens,

654
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 4: people will have to take appeals from that and we

655
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 4: will have to wait and see.

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00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 3: Well, I appreciate your taking the time to talk to me, Lean,

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00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 3: I know you're very busy now.

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00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 4: It was very funny. I saw some podcasts from Alan

659
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 4: Dershowitz where he said, if I was a young lawyer

660
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 4: right now, I'd be doing immigration law because that's where

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00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 4: all the accent is. And like, you know, what's weird

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00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 4: is people always sort of clown on me. Why did

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00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 4: you have all things go into immigration law? And now

664
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 4: look at that. It's springtime for lea. So there you go.

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Speaker 3: I'll let you get back to it. Thanks so much, Leon.

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Speaker 3: That's Leon Fresco, a partner at Hollanden Knight. And that's

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Speaker 3: it for this edition of the Bloomberg Law Show. Remember

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00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 3: you can always get the latest legal news on our

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Speaker 3: Bloomberg Law podcasts. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

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00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:18,280
Speaker 3: and at www dot Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast Slash Law,

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00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,240
Speaker 3: and remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every

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Speaker 3: weeknight at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso

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Speaker 3: and you're listening to Bloomberg