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Speaker 1: That's blue Apron dot com slash Nancy Grace. Blue Apron

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Speaker 1: a better way to cook. Climb stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: on serious x M Triumph Channel one thirty two thirty

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Speaker 1: years ago, Killer Rock the Warner Robins community after a

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Speaker 1: thirteen year old boy was murdered. Chucky Mark's life is

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Speaker 1: at just thirteen, but his case unsolved. He'd write his

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Speaker 1: bike to a nearby convenience store all the time to

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Speaker 1: buy candy. Someone heard a loud Paul when did I say?

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Speaker 1: They saw him talking to someone in a light colored

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Speaker 1: cough the vehicle speeding away. But who would shoot a

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Speaker 1: thirteen year old boy? Who killed check him on? There

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Speaker 1: is still no suspect. There are people in new community

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Speaker 1: that when com at that time the mode what happened

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Speaker 1: to trick him all? There was a knock at the door,

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Speaker 1: and then nothing was ever the same. There was a

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Speaker 1: knock at the war and then nothing was ever the same.

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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories, and I want

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Speaker 1: to thank you for being with us today. I am

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Speaker 1: trying again with everything I note to use and do

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Speaker 1: to solve a cold case. A cold case that means

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Speaker 1: a great deal to me personally. Chucky Mark a little boy,

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Speaker 1: a beautiful little boy. I always think of Chucky and

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Speaker 1: his little league, his little league outfit. And when I

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Speaker 1: say that, I think of him with the hat on

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Speaker 1: and the golden brown hair coming out from under it,

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Speaker 1: and the little jurors. He's so proud, so proud in

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Speaker 1: that picture. I mean, you just a handsome little boy too.

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Speaker 1: And it always, it gets blurred every time I think

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Speaker 1: about Chucky blur in my son John David, and I

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Speaker 1: think about him in his soccer uniform when he stands

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Speaker 1: there for the picture and when he gets a trophy

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Speaker 1: or those horrible little medals they hand out instead of

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Speaker 1: trophies now and I have to think about how the

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Speaker 1: last nine years have been the happiest years of my

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Speaker 1: life because of him and Lucy, And then Chucky comes

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Speaker 1: back into my mind's I you hear somebody in the background.

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Speaker 1: That's Chucky's mom. It's Kathy Miller. Kathy, I almost stopped

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Speaker 1: the call calling you to join me today, because you know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes for me anyway, it's easier for me to get

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Speaker 1: through the day without thinking about violent crime, without thinking

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Speaker 1: about the moment Keith was murdered, not wondering what was

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Speaker 1: the last thing he saw? Did he think about me?

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Speaker 1: Why wasn't I there? Did he suffer? Was he knocked

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Speaker 1: out immediately? What what happened? What did he go through?

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Speaker 1: Why did this happen? It's just easier to wake up

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Speaker 1: in the morning, have a cup of tea, and get busy,

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Speaker 1: because you know, I understand that, Nancy, I understand that feeling.

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Speaker 1: Why is that? I don't know, but you know you

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Speaker 1: I wish I could go a day, you know, pretending

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Speaker 1: that it it didn't happen. But I lived with this

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Speaker 1: empty hole in my heart every day, and to not

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Speaker 1: talk about it is just to not to be who

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Speaker 1: I am because I live with that every day. I

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Speaker 1: live with it every day that he's gone that I

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Speaker 1: don't I think the same thing as you. You know,

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Speaker 1: why wasn't I there? Was he scared? Did he need me?

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Speaker 1: And I'm his mother and I couldn't protect him? You know,

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Speaker 1: you watch your children all their lives, you know, to

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Speaker 1: try to keep them safe and just a moment in

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Speaker 1: time he left me and I wasn't there. I guess

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Speaker 1: I don't pretend it didn't happen. I just um, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to think about it because it's so painful.

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Speaker 1: It's just it's so painful. You just don't want that

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Speaker 1: pain to kind of enter your day or to start

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Speaker 1: your day. But it's there. You know, no matter what

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Speaker 1: we do to think that it wasn't it, It's there.

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Speaker 1: It's always underlying it. You know. It's that current, that

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Speaker 1: low current in our lives that I really I don't

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Speaker 1: hate it that much, but I do hate is that people.

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Speaker 1: I like, if you're connected to a murder, if somebody

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Speaker 1: in your family or your friend was murdered, then you're

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Speaker 1: somehow I don't know, Let's see, how can I put

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Speaker 1: look at you different? You're kind of trashy person. You're like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know that. People don't get happens to everybody.

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Speaker 1: I think they do. You know, no one's ever understood

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Speaker 1: that about that, that people look at you different. They

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Speaker 1: will treat you different. As soon as they you say

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Speaker 1: your child was murdered, It's like, oh, yeah, I guess

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Speaker 1: I can know what he was doing. You know, if

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Speaker 1: he becomes a victim again and he didn't do anything wrong. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: just let's put it out there. At the very beginning,

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Speaker 1: Chuck him mom was a little boy. He asked his

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Speaker 1: mom if he could you know what? Why am I

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Speaker 1: telling it? I've got his mother with me, Kathy, Kathy

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Speaker 1: Miller is joining me. Why I'm now considered to be

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Speaker 1: a friend. And we're going to get into how I

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Speaker 1: met Kathy, which is the craziest thing. How we ever

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Speaker 1: got connected is fortuitous. It was meant to be. But

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Speaker 1: I want to go back to that day, the day

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Speaker 1: eight pm, to just just start with that day, Cathy. Okay,

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Speaker 1: it was Memorial Day and um Chucky would always go

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Speaker 1: to this little market, a little grocery store just around

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Speaker 1: the corner from our house and buy candy for school

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Speaker 1: the next day. And he asked me if he could go.

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Speaker 1: He was just going to be gone a second, and

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Speaker 1: he went to the store to buy candy around the corner.

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Speaker 1: It's literally around the corner, around the corner. I mean, yes,

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Speaker 1: it's just like not even as a blot, baby, And

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Speaker 1: as the crow flies, it is probably not even a blot,

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Speaker 1: because this is how it is. Okay, there's the street,

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Speaker 1: there's a more of a main thoroughfare where the closer

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Speaker 1: to where the story is. Then you pull off and

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Speaker 1: you go into a residential suburb and it's tree line

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Speaker 1: and it's nice and there's no crime there. It's just

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Speaker 1: a regular American suburban neighborhood. You would it's pretty. People

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Speaker 1: are at the alley. Yeah, yeah, around the corner. It's

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Speaker 1: just like a little dream of what America suburban life

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Speaker 1: would be. And what he would do is get on

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Speaker 1: his bike and cut through the neighborhood and go up

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Speaker 1: to the main street, which was not like some busy

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Speaker 1: eight line. It just happened to be where a little

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Speaker 1: convenience store thing was. And I mean people don't get

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Speaker 1: it in that part of the country. I remember we

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Speaker 1: were little. Oh, my mother would have had a heart

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Speaker 1: attack because for us to go get gum or candy,

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Speaker 1: we would have to get on our bikes and ride

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Speaker 1: our bikes for like I don't know, minutes through woods

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Speaker 1: and dirt roads, and then we come up behind what

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Speaker 1: was called the pep station, right and all we could

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Speaker 1: get there was like gum or a couple of runs

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Speaker 1: and then we'll get on our bikes and drive all

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Speaker 1: the way back home. You know, really, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: just a small little country, you know, a little southern town,

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Speaker 1: and that's just what the kids do. So that night,

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Speaker 1: where were you described at home? Yeah, okay, we just

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Speaker 1: finished supper and the knock came on the you know,

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Speaker 1: to my door. But when they left, when he left,

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Speaker 1: you were washing the dishes, and you had your back

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Speaker 1: turned and went straight back. What happened? I just, you know,

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Speaker 1: I didn't even look at him, because it wasn't unusual

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Speaker 1: for Chucky was always in and out the house, you know,

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Speaker 1: with all the kids. And he just said, momm gonna

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Speaker 1: run to the store and get some candy for school.

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Speaker 1: And I said, you know, come back, you know, don't

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Speaker 1: be gone long, and he said I want, and you know,

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Speaker 1: out the door in two seconds. And I didn't look

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Speaker 1: at him before he left. He just was out the door.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's funny that you remember that. Funny odd

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Speaker 1: because I remember the last time I saw Keith and

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Speaker 1: he his family lived in Athens and he was working

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Speaker 1: over the summer and he would come down to visit

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Speaker 1: me and my family and make him and he had

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Speaker 1: come for the weekend and stayed the weekend and set

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Speaker 1: Sunday night. Oh I didn't want him to go back,

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Speaker 1: and so he said, okay, I'll stay. So he stayed

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Speaker 1: Sunday night, and we got up super early Monday morning

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Speaker 1: to drive I guess like two hours back, and I

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Speaker 1: remember standing outside it was chilly because it was so

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Speaker 1: early in the morning, and he went down the driveway

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Speaker 1: turned right and drove off to the horn and stuck

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Speaker 1: his hand up his arm above the window to wave

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Speaker 1: over the And I remember that moment like right now,

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Speaker 1: like it just happened yesterday. It's funny how that works.

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Speaker 1: It's just as clear. It's just so clear. And you

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Speaker 1: know how many times do we play that in your mind?

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Speaker 1: You know? And I remember thinking as he went out

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Speaker 1: of side, um, there's a superstition that says, don't watch

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Speaker 1: the person until they're out of sight because it's bad luck.

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Speaker 1: And I remember just before his car went out of side,

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Speaker 1: I kept waving, but I closed my eyes because I

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Speaker 1: didn't want to wash any bad luck. Okay, I remember

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Speaker 1: that yesterday, So you go, sure, go Okay, Then what happened?

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Speaker 1: So you're washing dishes. I'm washing dishes and then there's

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Speaker 1: a knock at the door and I go to answer it,

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Speaker 1: and it's one of his little friends that lives down

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Speaker 1: the street, and she said, I see Chucky. And I

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Speaker 1: looked like he's fallen off his bike and hurt himself.

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Speaker 1: You know what I'm thinking, Oh, no, he's you know,

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Speaker 1: he's broke his arm, he's broke his leg. So me

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Speaker 1: and my husband and we grab our other child, Greg,

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Speaker 1: who's like in the first second grade at that time,

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Speaker 1: and we just run down, you know, to to see Chucky.

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Speaker 1: And as we're running, I see that it is so

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Speaker 1: much more than that, you know, and it's just then

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Speaker 1: it's just it's like slow motion. It's I don't like,

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Speaker 1: my feet are made of let and I just can't

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Speaker 1: get there, you know, I'm just it's just I can't

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Speaker 1: hardly explain how I was feeling. I just knew, I knew.

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Speaker 1: And then that's when we find him and he's laying

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Speaker 1: there and they think at first that he is a

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Speaker 1: hit and run and um, they roll him over and

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Speaker 1: the bullet went through the back of his neck and

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Speaker 1: came out in his face, and he's dead. O. And

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Speaker 1: that was the moment that I kind of went away

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Speaker 1: and everything changed my whole life. And that's the last

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Speaker 1: time I saw it. Dear you say that moment when

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Speaker 1: you saw he had fallen off his bike, you know,

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Speaker 1: I thought I would find him sit there, you know,

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Speaker 1: just with his arm or his leg broke. You know

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Speaker 1: what I'm thinking, Oh my god, that's the worst thing.

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Speaker 1: And it is so not even that when you saw him,

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Speaker 1: what did you see exactly. You know, my mind sort

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Speaker 1: of won't let me think about what I saw. I

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Speaker 1: know that sounds crazy, but it it just I get

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Speaker 1: there and it kind of flashes away. I just saw

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Speaker 1: so much blood because it's on here was all read

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Speaker 1: from from the blood and everyone. My husband grabbed me

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Speaker 1: and kind of took me to dispense for I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: see anything, and the police were there by that time,

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Speaker 1: and they didn't want me near anything to this, um

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Speaker 1: disturb the scene. And by that then there's just this

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Speaker 1: huge crowd and I'm just like hysterical. I'm just hysterical,

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Speaker 1: and they're trying to get people to calm me down,

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Speaker 1: and um, it's just something like you see in the movies.

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Speaker 1: It's just like you see in the movies. I'm just

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Speaker 1: hysterical and I can't get to him and I can't

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Speaker 1: help him. And you know, I just when you said

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Speaker 1: you that moment, you rarely think of it. Mm hmm.

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Speaker 1: I remember that. When I went to Keith's funeral, I

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Speaker 1: just couldn't stay in the thought of seeing him in

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Speaker 1: the casket. And I walked to and the overwhelming smell

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Speaker 1: of carnations, which to this day makes me sick. I

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Speaker 1: can't stand it. I almost feeling just talking about it.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like when you smell a lot of gas

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Speaker 1: fumes at the gas station. The thought of smelling those

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Speaker 1: carnations just oh oh, the flora flora, Oh oh. I

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Speaker 1: never go with a floris. I can't stand that smell.

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Speaker 1: I can't either. But neither went in and I remember

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Speaker 1: I just instinctively glanced into some kind of anti room.

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Speaker 1: I glanced off to the right and I saw his

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Speaker 1: casket and I saw just above the edge, the top

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Speaker 1: of his profile, and I passed out. I passed out.

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Speaker 1: And oh, I just know, you can't really even remember

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Speaker 1: past that, he said, all of a sudden, it was

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Speaker 1: we were out at the we were at the funeral,

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Speaker 1: and that's you know. And I can remember the pastor

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Speaker 1: God help him, Port kept calling me Mary, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't really care. It's okay, I get it.

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Speaker 1: But I just remember that, and it was so unreal.

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Speaker 1: And I've told you this before, off Mike, that for

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00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:41,040
Speaker 1: about a year or two before case murder, and I

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00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,680
Speaker 1: don't know how long after his murder, I have a

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Speaker 1: huge chunks of time I can't remember. People will come

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Speaker 1: up and go Hey, do you remember something. I'm like, no,

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Speaker 1: I don't remember. Tell me, tell me what happened. I've

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00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,760
Speaker 1: done the same thing that's happened to me too. And

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00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:07,400
Speaker 1: when at Chucky's funeral, my husband and UM, they decided,

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Speaker 1: you know, to have a close casket because they didn't

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Speaker 1: want me to. They just, you know, they just couldn't

255
00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:20,639
Speaker 1: make Chucky look like Chucky used to and UM, so

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Speaker 1: it was closed and we just had his picture on

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Speaker 1: the on the coffin and that was it, you know what.

258
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Speaker 1: I'm him again, trying to not that it matters, but

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out what is the worst thing. Is

260
00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:41,320
Speaker 1: the worst thing when you find out the person is gone,

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00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:48,280
Speaker 1: or that horrible time after where you're practically disabled and

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Speaker 1: there's nothing you can do, Like those days and those

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00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:57,480
Speaker 1: nights and those hours that turn into weeks that turn

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Speaker 1: into months and you're just comple neatly disabled with pain

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00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:08,080
Speaker 1: and there's nothing nobody can help you. You can't get

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Speaker 1: away from it. You wake up in the morning and

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Speaker 1: for just about maybe two seconds you it seems normal,

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Speaker 1: and then you remember and there's no way around it.

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Speaker 1: No pill, no short no there's no shortcup, no pill,

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Speaker 1: no medicine, no shrink, no nothing. It's no person, no words,

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Speaker 1: no person, no nothing. You are engulfed and wrapped around

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Speaker 1: and cocoons and a pain that is indescribable, and there's you,

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Speaker 1: wake up you. Every breath is so hard. I just

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Speaker 1: wanted to die. I just wanted to die. I'm just

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Speaker 1: imagining you in that heat and you've dragged your a

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Speaker 1: little child along behind you running and then everybody is

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Speaker 1: around Chucky and you're kind of off to the side

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Speaker 1: by that fence. What in the world was happening in

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00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:12,760
Speaker 1: your mind? But then there's the funeral. When when did

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00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:17,480
Speaker 1: you realize Chucky was not hit by a car. Chucky

281
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,840
Speaker 1: didn't fall off his bike, he didn't hit his head.

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Speaker 1: Somebody shot him. Somebody shot him and killed your child,

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Speaker 1: and in broad daylight, at close range. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: people were saying, well, maybe a stray bullet. Will know

285
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Speaker 1: it wasn't a stray bullet. Somebody put a gun to

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Speaker 1: the back of his head and shot him. And that

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00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:43,560
Speaker 1: is the fact. That is the only thing that truly

288
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,199
Speaker 1: I know, and I just you know, as soon as

289
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:49,439
Speaker 1: we went back to the house, after we left the scene,

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00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:51,960
Speaker 1: you know, and all the police and the sheriff, and

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00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:55,480
Speaker 1: you know, everyone's just bombarding you with you know, questions,

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Speaker 1: you know, and I'm I'm just trying to say he

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00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,359
Speaker 1: he was shot, you know. I'm just I can't even

294
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Speaker 1: go there. It's just I can't go there. It was

295
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:11,120
Speaker 1: just so overwhelming. I can't even hardly put into words

296
00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:16,960
Speaker 1: how overwhelmed all of this is at that moment in time.

297
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Speaker 1: And then I just like my hands starts shaking, and

298
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Speaker 1: then my legs start shaking, and my whole body shaking,

299
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Speaker 1: and then I start going into shock, and so I

300
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,159
Speaker 1: have to take me to the emergency room, and I

301
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,399
Speaker 1: you know, it's just it's just this nightmare of things

302
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:37,119
Speaker 1: that are happening, and so much is happening in that

303
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,959
Speaker 1: short period of time, like from eight to midnight. With me,

304
00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:45,480
Speaker 1: it's just trying to know that he's not coming back,

305
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,479
Speaker 1: and somebody killed him. Somebody wanted him dead, and I

306
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:53,199
Speaker 1: can't fathom it. Who would want him dead? I can

307
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:56,040
Speaker 1: just trying to get this picture in my head. At

308
00:20:56,040 --> 00:21:00,880
Speaker 1: a distance, Cathy sees her son sprawled on the pavement

309
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:06,760
Speaker 1: of a convenient store parking lot, bleeding near his bike.

310
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Speaker 1: They shot him while he's still on his bike, or

311
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:19,840
Speaker 1: standing beside his bike, and in his life and in

312
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:24,520
Speaker 1: his little hand was still a pack of bubble gum,

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Speaker 1: a pack of bubble gum. So he had made it

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00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:31,000
Speaker 1: into the store, just like he told mommy. He got

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00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:36,320
Speaker 1: his little bubble gum and somebody gunned this little boy down.

316
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:42,240
Speaker 1: Now what do we know? What have you been told, Cathy?

317
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:48,879
Speaker 1: What have you learned about a potential suspect? What I know?

318
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:54,680
Speaker 1: If he was seen talking two someone in a light

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00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 1: colored car, and that's all I know, had to be

320
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,399
Speaker 1: in in Okay, So it's a man. Had to you

321
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:06,320
Speaker 1: had to be a man. And there are ages. I

322
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 1: don't know. Um I thought there, I thought it was

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Speaker 1: narrowed down to a white male. Well, yeah, a white

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00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:24,560
Speaker 1: male both likely to the driver and a passenger is

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00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:33,440
Speaker 1: from what I know, um kind of acne scarred space rough,

326
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:38,000
Speaker 1: a rough looking you know, dark hair, hite hair, wasn't

327
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,440
Speaker 1: it dark hair? Light hair? Okay, I think light hair

328
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:46,040
Speaker 1: was the passenger. I'm not sure about the driver. So

329
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 1: the guy with light hair, a white male with light

330
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 1: colored hair, is he the one that had the acne scars? Yes? Yes,

331
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,679
Speaker 1: Well somebody had to get fairly close to him to

332
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,160
Speaker 1: know he had acne scar ours. Yeah, I mean, at

333
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 1: least at the moment, I'm not sure how they got

334
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 1: that and how they got that, I'm not sure. And

335
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:18,399
Speaker 1: any any remote idea on a making model. No, just

336
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 1: light color, you know, is all I've saint Kathy about

337
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,920
Speaker 1: a potential motive. I've always thought somebody tried to lure

338
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 1: him in the car and he wouldn't get in, and

339
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:35,639
Speaker 1: they shot him, because he never got in anybody's car. No, no,

340
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 1: And he wasn't you know, he didn't hang out with

341
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 1: any bad kids, you know, he was he was like

342
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 1: into the sports, and you know, he was very well

343
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 1: like you know, so he never had arguments with anyone

344
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 1: that I know of, Kathy, you know what you're doing

345
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 1: about you, You know what you're doing right now. You're

346
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 1: defending him to me. You are defending him to me

347
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,360
Speaker 1: like you're telling me he didn't do anything wrong. This

348
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 1: wasn't his fault. Hey, you don't have to do that

349
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 1: to me. But as long as it was the subject,

350
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,879
Speaker 1: this boy, this little boy, had never been in a

351
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 1: day's trouble in his life. He made good grades. He

352
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 1: was the star of the little league game, the little

353
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 1: league team. He practiced all the time. He never missed

354
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 1: a game. That was his world, that was as it

355
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:31,159
Speaker 1: should be, was mommy, his little brother coming home, playing

356
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,679
Speaker 1: little bicycle, his bicycle. Oh, he loved the bicycle. That

357
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 1: was his world. And it's not today. What it's funny

358
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 1: that you say that about defending him, and I do that, Nancy.

359
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:51,439
Speaker 1: It's almost everyone I speak to, and I, after all

360
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 1: these years, I still do that, is it? I don't

361
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 1: know why I do that, because you know what, you

362
00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 1: know what people I don't know why people wrote this.

363
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 1: And it was out there on the internet that Keith

364
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 1: was at a liquor store and got gunned down. And

365
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 1: then somebody else wrote that Keith was a cop, and

366
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,120
Speaker 1: then somebody else wrote that I made the whole thing

367
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,199
Speaker 1: up that I don't even know. Uh, just see, I

368
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 1: don't even know what all they've written does horrible, horrible things.

369
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: I don't even know why. So, you know what, it's

370
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 1: maybe you're not so far off the mark by feeling

371
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 1: like you have to be defensive because people will say

372
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: or think, now, wait a minute, wasn't there some incident

373
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 1: you talk? Oh, by the way, I recall um people

374
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:47,119
Speaker 1: witnesses were questioned and it is believed the part was

375
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 1: driving a white old mobile, cutlass or buick. Right, Yes,

376
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 1: I forgot that. You're right? Okay, the mate you know,

377
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 1: let me ask you this. What could tell me about

378
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: the incident where a woman walked up to you weren't

379
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 1: you trying on clothes or weren't you in a store?

380
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 1: And made comments to you about Chucky's death? Oh it

381
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 1: was I worked in Yes, yes, yes, you know? Okay, okay,

382
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 1: I you know what? You know what? I just can

383
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 1: gotten crossed in my head. Someone who came up to

384
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 1: Sharon Roacha, who is Lacy Lacy Peterson's mom. At some

385
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 1: she was trying to get an outfit and someone came

386
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 1: up to her to store and started asking her all

387
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 1: these questions about Lacey's death. And you know, people don't

388
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 1: get it. I mean when you can be having a

389
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 1: perfectly fine day and suddenly somebody asked you about the murder,

390
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 1: and it's like getting cold water thrown on your face,

391
00:26:57,880 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 1: and it can just throw me into a depression. It

392
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 1: makes me days to get out of it. I can't

393
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 1: afford to do that anymore. With having two children. They

394
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: don't need it to press mommy. They need a mommy

395
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 1: who was upbeat and ready to roll with them, not

396
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: somebody you know, disabled with Uh. So that's what kind

397
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 1: in my head. Now what happened? This was you weren't

398
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: at a doctor's office. What happened? And um, the doctor

399
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: had sent me a patient. I would pre up patients

400
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 1: for surgery, kind of go over everything with them. And

401
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 1: she saw Chucky's picture on my desk, and you know,

402
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: she said, oh, are you Chucks mother? And I went yes,

403
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 1: And you know, she kind of looked at his picture

404
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: and she knew the history that he was murdered. And

405
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: she told me, she says, you know, sometimes when parents

406
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: don't take care of their children, God calls them home. Well,

407
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: she hit something so deep inside of me that I

408
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 1: had felt, you know, like I wasn't a good mother.

409
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: I let him go. I gave him permission to go,

410
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 1: you know, and it just resignated to me. I just

411
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 1: had a step out of the room. I went to

412
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 1: my doctor and I was hysterical. It I was just

413
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:15,159
Speaker 1: shyster I was hysterical, hysterical. Okay, you are just making

414
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,959
Speaker 1: me tell my story more than your story. But I

415
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 1: have to tell you what happened. Okay, So this is

416
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 1: years after Keith Smarter. Okay, I was living this what

417
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,640
Speaker 1: han't okay? So I finished underground, I went to law school,

418
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 1: got my law degree, started prosecuting um. After ten years,

419
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: my elected d A retired and I originally turned down

420
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 1: an offered to go to court TV in New York.

421
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: I called him back and went, hey, I have a job.

422
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 1: Here I go. I'm on my way and U. I

423
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: had come home for a weekend to Atlanta, and still

424
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: at this time, even if to all these years, I

425
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: would hardly ever go out. I just the sight and

426
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: the sounds of everybody having a good time. I don't know,

427
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: just rubbed me the wrong way after case murder. It

428
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: just didn't seem right to me. I know that's abnormal,

429
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: but just the way it was is U. And so

430
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 1: my now husband UH and my girlfriend who was defense

431
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: is a defense lawyer in town um Renee. The three

432
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 1: of us went out after my show at night to

433
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: go get dinner. It was late, It's like nine thirty

434
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 1: or ten o'clock at night. Ex that's what time I

435
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: would get off work. And we went to this hole

436
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 1: in the wall that had Cajun food. And I'm sitting

437
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: there and I the blue. This has gotta be Twenty

438
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: fifteen years later, some guy walked up to me and said,

439
00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: I was one of case good friends, and I can't

440
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: believe you're out with a guy having a good time.

441
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: I mean, right now, Kathy the studio with me, and

442
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: my mouth is fellow. But I'm like, I didn't even

443
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: know what to say. Did you feel like you've just

444
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 1: been hit? And yes, I feel it right now. I

445
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: feel like face and to my to save my neck. Well,

446
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: of course it thrown me into a depression, which resignated,

447
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: like that's true. He's right. And you know, lived alone

448
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 1: in New York and I would come home from work

449
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 1: at night and just sit there in this quiet apartment

450
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: and just it was like a palpable, tangible presence in

451
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 1: the room, that overwhelming grief. And I don't know the

452
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 1: guy's name. If he bit me in the neck right now,

453
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: I wouldn't know him. But I remember that moment and

454
00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: it was awful, awful. What is wrong with people back?

455
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know. I don't, I don't know,

456
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: but it puts it takes you back. I mean, what

457
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: do you say to that you've done? I couldn't say.

458
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: I just I didn't either. I didn't say anything. Nobody

459
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 1: believes it. I just was so I know me too.

460
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: They said, why didn't you? I said I. I was

461
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: punched in this. I couldn't speak because she hit on

462
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: something way deep down inside of me that I believe too,

463
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 1: you know. And I was crushed. I was crushed in

464
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: it that a little bit of recovery I had made

465
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: put me way back, you know, and like I was

466
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: starting all over again. And it was so hurtful. But

467
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: people say hurtful things to you, but you were because

468
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: get some bubble gum to night time and you let

469
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: him go. Okay, So the other day, but see what

470
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 1: people don't get in the summertime in the south eight

471
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: o'clock it's just like noon outside. Um. Yeah. And it

472
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 1: wasn't something new that he did, you know, It wasn't

473
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: you know. The other day, Kathy, I was and where

474
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 1: was I was? In cost code okay, because the children

475
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: like a particular type a fish filet okay. So I

476
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: went in there trying not to get the free samples

477
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: because they're really anyway. So I go straight and I

478
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: left them in the car with my mother, okay, And

479
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: she is about eighties six, and she was nodding off

480
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 1: when I got out of the car, and they were

481
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: on their iPads looking up. Can't playing candy crush or something.

482
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 1: And it hit me while I was in there in

483
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: the frozen food section. What if somebody grabs that car

484
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: and takes off. My mother couldn't fight them off. And

485
00:32:55,960 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 1: here I am in here in the fish division. I

486
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: almost ran out of Costco. I mean, there's no running

487
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: out because you have to show your car and this

488
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: and that, blah blah, And I thought I would jump

489
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 1: out of my skin before I could get When I

490
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: got into that parking lot, I had put all you know,

491
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: they don't give you a bag, so you have to

492
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: put everything in the box. I was trotting, if you

493
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 1: can see, with this big box in my arms, running

494
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 1: across the parking lot to get to the car. I mean,

495
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: it never goes away. This was just last week. This

496
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 1: was last week that I thought somebody would get the

497
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: twins and hurt down. Yeah, because you know what can happen.

498
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: I mean, we have experienced that. We know it can happen.

499
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: It's not a story someone tells us. And I believe

500
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 1: that's why we have this tangible fear with us that

501
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: it can happen again. You know it can happen again.

502
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 1: I'm gonna put out the tip line again. Four seven

503
00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: eight five four two to zero eight five four seven

504
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: eight five four two two zero eight five or four

505
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 1: seven eight five four two to zero eight zero marks

506
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 1: the anniversary of the Summer of Sam. To mark the occasion,

507
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: Pocketbooks is proud to release a special anniversary edition E

508
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 1: book of Son of Sam by Lawrence D. Klausner. This

509
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: is an incredible story of how a single man, David Berkowitz,

510
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: dubbed Son of Sam, the demon haunted forty four caliber killer,

511
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 1: killed six, wounded several others, and terrorized millions of New

512
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: Yorkers over eight known attacks from July nine through August

513
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: ninety seven. It's also the story of the greatest man

514
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 1: hunt in the history of the New York Police Department,

515
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 1: the intimate narrative of the men assigned to tracking down

516
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,879
Speaker 1: a lone killer. The police task force investigated more than

517
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: three thousand suspects, some of them cops, before finally making

518
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,359
Speaker 1: an arrest. In the meantime, politicians watched a city writhe

519
00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: and panic newspapers played upon the fears of their read

520
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 1: and the criminal justice system showed itself incapable of coping

521
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 1: with the man who committed such horrendous crimes. Download Summer

522
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: of Sam by Lawrence de Closter Today, royalty turned from

523
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: the cell of this book will be shared between the victims,

524
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 1: where their families and the author. Chucky Mock was murdered.

525
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 1: This beautiful little boy on his bicycle was murdered many,

526
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:37,280
Speaker 1: many years ago. What was the year, Kathy Man? Thirty

527
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 1: one years ago? He would be forty five. He just

528
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 1: had his birthday. That almost when he said he just

529
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:50,320
Speaker 1: had his birthday, that almost my stomach did a flip

530
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 1: because the twins birthday is in November, and we were

531
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: just talking about what are we going to do for

532
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 1: your birthday? What are we gonna do it? Because we

533
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 1: talked about it all year after, you know, about two

534
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 1: weeks after their birthday, okay, maybe two days after the

535
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 1: birthday party, we start talking about what are we gonna

536
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 1: do next year? We're gonna have for your birthday next year?

537
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 1: And you said, he just had his birthday, you know,

538
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, you know, what would he be now

539
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 1: and what would he be doing? And you know, I'd

540
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,760
Speaker 1: probably have grandchildren, and you know, but he's only thirteen

541
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 1: to me. And I know what I wanted to ask you, Nancy,

542
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 1: how do you what? I guess you know, after all

543
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: this time and his murder is not solved, and what

544
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: if it isn't solved? I mean, do I what do

545
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 1: I do? Do I let it go? Or do I

546
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 1: keep trying to put his story out all the time?

547
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: I mean, what do I do? Do I let it go?

548
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: Or you know what? Trying to figure out I'm supposed

549
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 1: to be the expert and know the answer. I'm like, oh, Lord,

550
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: what what? What's the right answer for what she just

551
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: asked me? And I think I know the answer. I

552
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: think I do have the answer, because I vacillate, like

553
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 1: for today, I almost didn't want to even call you

554
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:18,760
Speaker 1: and bring the whole thing up again. But I want

555
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: the answer. I want the truth about Chucky. And I

556
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:27,319
Speaker 1: think that everybody go ahead and mock me if you

557
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 1: want to. I really think that the Lord will provide

558
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: what you need and what we'll get you through the day.

559
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 1: For instance, I've been so excited about our serious radio show,

560
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 1: you know, and I thought, oh, I want to talk

561
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 1: about Chucky, Mark. I want to do this again. I

562
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: want the story out there, I want the tip line

563
00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 1: out there. I want Cathy with me. And I remember,

564
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 1: after talking about Chucky on Dr oz Or Wendy Williams,

565
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: Fate has a funny way. It's not Fate, it's it's

566
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 1: it's the Lord has a funny way of working. Right.

567
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 1: So it's in that vein, you know, as I always say,

568
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 1: when you don't know a horse, look at his track record.

569
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,399
Speaker 1: If you don't know what's going to happen, look at

570
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:32,320
Speaker 1: what has happened, because that's a blueprint. Please explain how

571
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:37,879
Speaker 1: you and I got connected? Wow? Well, like I said,

572
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,760
Speaker 1: I worked in this doctor's office and it was round

573
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving and I was talking to some of my friends saying,

574
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 1: you know, I need I have to I don't know

575
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: what to do anymore about Chucky. I need to get

576
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: his story out. If only I could get in touch

577
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 1: with Nancy Gray your name, I just have this always.

578
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: I've got to get in touch with you. But I

579
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 1: don't know how to get in touch with her. And

580
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: we had um, a drug wrap that came to see

581
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 1: us all the time. I loved him so much, and he,

582
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,319
Speaker 1: you know, he'd stop and talk to me and you know.

583
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 1: I asked him what he was gonna do for the

584
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 1: holidays and everything, and he says, well, I'm going to

585
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: go to New York to see my sister. And I said, well,

586
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 1: you know I was your sister and he said, Nancy Grace.

587
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,439
Speaker 1: I thought, I can't, I can't breathe. And I said,

588
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 1: do you have a moment. I've got to tell you

589
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 1: my story? And I told him the story of Chucky

590
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 1: and he said, you get me everything you have and

591
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: I'm taking it to Nancy. And I you know, I thought, God,

592
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 1: you've answered a prayer. I've finally, you know, you have

593
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 1: answered one of my prayers. I'm gonna be able to

594
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 1: talk to her. She's going to help me. She is

595
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 1: going to help me. And sure enough you called me,

596
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 1: and Thanksgiving you called me and you said you were

597
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 1: going to help me. And then you have my people

598
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 1: no matter where I am, and I thank God for it.

599
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,399
Speaker 1: Tell you the truth. People ask me, does it ever

600
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: bother you? People are coming up to you asking for

601
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 1: help and wanting this and that, and I'm like, no, no,

602
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 1: I welcome in. I want to hear their stories. And

603
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 1: I remember, I remembered the moment my brother called me.

604
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 1: I was coming up. I had done Larry King that night.

605
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 1: I had worked all day, stayed at Court TV, and

606
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 1: gone and done Larry No, how did it go? Then

607
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 1: I went and did h Lynn across town and I

608
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 1: had done Larry King, which was a real blessing to me.

609
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 1: And I was on the way home and Matt, my brother,

610
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 1: Matt Mackie as I call him. I saw his number

611
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 1: pop up and answer the phone and he started talking

612
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 1: and I'm like, Okay, here's the story, and here's another

613
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: story and someone he wants me to do something? What

614
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,240
Speaker 1: is it? What can I do? And I was listening

615
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 1: and he kept talking and talking and I never said

616
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: a word. And all of a sudden, I come all

617
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 1: the way across town and was at my stop and

618
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: we were still talking about Chucky and you, and I'm like,

619
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 1: don't say another word. I'm on it. And I hung

620
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: the phone up and I immediately it is late by

621
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 1: then called my producer, executive producer Dean. I'm like, we

622
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: gotta do this, we got to do this. And that

623
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 1: was it. Yeah, you did it, like right away. I

624
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:34,359
Speaker 1: just knew in my soul that if I could get

625
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 1: if there's somehow I could get in touch with you,

626
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 1: you would know my story. You would listen, and of

627
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 1: all these years that no one has ever helped me,

628
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 1: you would. I always believe it. I know you're not

629
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 1: gonna believe this, Kathy, but I figured something out. And

630
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: you know what it took for me to figure it out.

631
00:41:55,760 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 1: Many many years I was writing my book Eleventh Victim,

632
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 1: and the heroine and eleventh victim is Haley Dean. She's

633
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 1: a much better person than me. Let me tell you

634
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 1: that right now. But she loves to solve crimes and

635
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 1: she loves to win cases, put the bad guy away

636
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:24,280
Speaker 1: because Hally not me, of course. Somehow, you know, every

637
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 1: time she puts a band aid on somebody else, it's

638
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 1: like putting a band aid on her. I mean, I

639
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:36,879
Speaker 1: get so much joy. I guess is the only word.

640
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 1: I know. It's not really joy. But I'm getting to

641
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 1: talk to you and talk about Chucky and putting it

642
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 1: out there again. It just feels like somehow we're putting

643
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 1: it out in the universe, and that's somehow, some way,

644
00:42:53,400 --> 00:43:00,280
Speaker 1: somebody knows something and somebody is going to come forward. Everybody.

645
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:04,240
Speaker 1: If you can hear our voices, please go to crime

646
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 1: online dot com I wrote a story a while back

647
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 1: about Chucky. Alan is going to join me with the

648
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 1: story of his own own. And you'll see his picture,

649
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 1: and you will see and meet Kathy Miller. Kathy, my

650
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:27,280
Speaker 1: brother told me a story that you told him. And

651
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:31,799
Speaker 1: this is how it goes. You finally moved out of

652
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 1: that house, and you were in your new house and

653
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 1: you we're putting all the furniture in, and you were

654
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 1: putting up pictures, that's what you were doing. And you

655
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 1: put up the pictures of Chucky. And I am with you.

656
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:57,240
Speaker 1: I have um out, I have out all my letters

657
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 1: from Keith, I have his baseball m and I can

658
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 1: walk by and touch him whenever I want to. You

659
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: were putting up Chucky's pictures, so you got them all up.

660
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 1: You walk tie the room, you hadn't been out of

661
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 1: the room ten minutes, and all of a sudden, crash,

662
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 1: you go back in. All the pictures, not one the

663
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 1: pictures of Chucky had all crashed to the floor. And

664
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 1: your son has said he saw Chucky run through the house. Mhm.

665
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:36,399
Speaker 1: I know it sounds crazy, but that's so true. I mean,

666
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 1: stranger than usual happenings, that is so true. I mean

667
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,840
Speaker 1: and it is with me. Tell me that part. Please

668
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 1: tell me that part. I want to hear that so

669
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 1: much that he's he's with me. He every picture just fell,

670
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 1: I mean all at the same time, not one at

671
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 1: a time, they were all all at the same time,

672
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:02,799
Speaker 1: just fell. And Greg just said, Mama, up, just ran

673
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 1: through here. He just went down the hall and he's

674
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 1: so he's with me here, he's with me. And that's

675
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 1: just that really happened. You know, you asked me if

676
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 1: should we just let it go. I don't know. I

677
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 1: don't know how to let things go. I'm sure I

678
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 1: don't probably tell you to let it go, but I

679
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 1: don't know how to do that. And it's like, if

680
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:31,840
Speaker 1: I let it go, then what kind of mama am I?

681
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 1: You know, we know the answers our children. We were

682
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,919
Speaker 1: there when we gave birth to them, we were there

683
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 1: when they're hurt, were there and they're good times. Well

684
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 1: I wasn't there when he died. And if I leave him,

685
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 1: I leave him. Well there's your answer right there. You

686
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 1: can't let go of this any more than you can

687
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,759
Speaker 1: forget it. You can't let go. People always say, you know,

688
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 1: how why are you still doing this? You know you

689
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 1: gotta let it go. Well, if they would tell me

690
00:45:57,760 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 1: how to let how do you let your child go?

691
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 1: You know, you pick a child and you let them go.

692
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 1: You know, you pick your child. Which one would you

693
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 1: pick if you let them go? And you're right? Said,

694
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 1: is my answer. I'll never let it go. I'm his

695
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 1: mother and I need to know how my child died

696
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:20,319
Speaker 1: and why. I know everything else. I just gotta know

697
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: why him and why he died and if he was scared,

698
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 1: you know, and was the last thing he thought. Maybe

699
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,800
Speaker 1: I need my mama because that little boys I always

700
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 1: need their mom I Nancy Grayson with me is Kathy Miller.

701
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,240
Speaker 1: This is crying story, signing off goodbye friend,