1 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: So yeah, do logistics. Could I have you introduce yourself. 2 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 1: My name's Jack ree Sider. I'm the host of the 3 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: podcast Darknet Diaries. 4 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 2: If you haven't heard of the Darknet Diaries podcast, let 5 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 2: me explain the background a little bit here. So every 6 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 2: episode they get into some real wild story that's usually 7 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 2: about hackers, and that might be why Jack is so 8 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 2: cautious about revealing his identity, because he knows what's out there. 9 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 2: So maybe we should address the elephant on the screen here. 10 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 2: For those of you watching. 11 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 1: I'm an anonymous podcaster. I don't like showing myself my 12 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: face or anything like that, so I'm using a filter 13 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: to keep my privacy when I cover enough of these hacks. 14 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: When I hear about breach after breach after breach, I 15 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: think to myself, well, I guess all my data is 16 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: out there. There's nothing I can do, and I become 17 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: black pelt, I suppose, where I just feel completely hopeless 18 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: about privacy. But then I realized, no, who's the ding 19 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:05,839 Speaker 1: dong who gave them my data? 20 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 2: It was me. 21 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: So in order to protect myself from being in breach 22 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: after breach, I just stopped giving my data to anyone 23 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 1: who asked for it. And so that's why, after you know, 24 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: seven ten years of doing a podcast about hacking, this 25 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: is where I've landed on being an extreme privacy advocate. 26 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: And that's why I don't like to show my face anywhere. 27 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: If you think about, like what your ex lover knew 28 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: about you when you were in the height of your relationship, 29 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: they do everything. They knew your password, they knew your photo, 30 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: but they do everywhere you wet every day. But that 31 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: was years ago. You've broken up with them, and now 32 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: they don't know anything about what you're up to, right, 33 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: and so there's still hope on recovering your privacy and 34 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: getting it back. So I'm totally white piled now. I 35 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: have a lot of optimism about my privacy. 36 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 2: I love how we're starting this out like that because 37 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 2: I feel like we're going to go there right because 38 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 2: the time period that we're going to talk about very 39 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 2: much was either a a lot of people didn't really 40 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 2: care too much about their information being out there, or 41 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 2: they didn't really think about it or very much were 42 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 2: thinking in the sense that, uh, you know, everything's out there, 43 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 2: what can I possibly do about this? You know? Yeah, yeah, exactly. 44 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 2: On this week's episode, Jack is going to share one 45 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 2: of the most bizarre, the most frustrating, but also honestly 46 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 2: one of the most hopeful hacking stories that I've ever heard. 47 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 2: It takes us back to a time when even the 48 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 2: phrase hacker freaked everyone out. And if you were around 49 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 2: in the MySpace days and you've been wondering why social 50 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 2: media today looks so boring, maybe this week's story has 51 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 2: some answers for you. 52 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 3: I'm afraid. 53 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:54,359 Speaker 2: Kaleidoscope and iHeart podcasts. This is kill Switch. I'm Dexah Thomas. 54 00:02:54,880 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 3: I'm all right, goodbye. 55 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. So take us back to two thousand and five. 56 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 2: What was the Internet like back then? 57 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: So we're going from Internet one point oh to Internet 58 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: two point oho. In those days, and one point oh 59 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: was basically read only. Everything was just posted there and 60 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: you could read it, but you couldn't really interact with it. 61 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: There's no upfolts, there's no likes, there's no shares, there's 62 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: no oh let me create an account and comment on this. 63 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: It's just read it and that's all you get. And 64 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: then as Internet two point zero came around, we started 65 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: getting sites like dig and read It and MySpace, where 66 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: now you are creating content on this site. Now you 67 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: have this little personal space on this website. This is 68 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: the music I like, and this is the bands I follow, 69 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: and this is the stuff I've been doing every day, 70 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: and this is my comments about these things. And so 71 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 1: it became this read write kind of era, where now 72 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 1: I can read it and I can comment on it, 73 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 1: and I can write about it now. I think everyone's 74 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 1: favorite subject then and now is ourselves, and so we 75 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: love talking about ourselves on the Internet. And so when 76 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: my Space showed up, it's like, we want to know 77 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: all about you, and you're like, yeah, let me jump 78 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: on here and tell you what my interests are and 79 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: show you pictures of what I've been doing and all 80 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: the fun activities I've been up to. And so it 81 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:48,359 Speaker 1: was the first big social media to hit our Internet, 82 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: and it was really fascinating. 83 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 2: My Space started in two thousand and three, and the 84 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:56,359 Speaker 2: whole point of the site was to let you connect 85 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 2: with your friends and maybe even make new ones. But 86 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 2: probably the most the famous or infamous feature of MySpace 87 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 2: was the top eight. So this was a feature that 88 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 2: would allow you to publicly rank your top eight friends, 89 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:10,840 Speaker 2: and everyone who used it back then you probably remember 90 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 2: agonizing over who you should put in that top eight 91 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 2: and then accidentally having somebody get mad because they weren't 92 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 2: included or didn't like where they were placed, and then 93 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 2: it causing all sorts of weird beef and drama at school. 94 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 2: Another thing that people probably remember is that when you 95 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 2: first started your account, you were automatically friends with Tom, 96 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 2: the co founder of the site. And then there was 97 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 2: the options that you could use to categorize yourself. 98 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: You could tell us what mood you were in or 99 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: what relationship you were in, and you could connect your 100 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 1: boyfriend or girlfriend to you to say, oh, I'm in 101 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: a relationship with them, and then they could show that 102 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:44,599 Speaker 1: they're in a relationship with you. And then every now 103 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 1: and then you'd see something where you'd go to your 104 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 1: girlfriend's MySpace and she's no longer set to a relationship 105 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: with you, and you're like, what's going on here? Is 106 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: there something I don't know about? And you'd learned about things. 107 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: It's a hard way. 108 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 2: One of the big things about MySpace for people who 109 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 2: might not remember is my space was customizable. 110 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, you could change the background and I think maybe 111 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 1: the fonts, and when you land on it, you could 112 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 1: even have music playing you could kind of theme it out. Yeah. 113 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 2: I remember when Facebook came out. One of the reasons 114 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,239 Speaker 2: that some people initially did not like Facebook was because 115 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,799 Speaker 2: it wasn't customizable. And that was kind of a weird 116 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 2: divibe because I actually felt like, good, I'm sick of 117 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 2: going to somebody's MySpace page and I just want to 118 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 2: message you, and you got like a Britney Spears MIDI 119 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,919 Speaker 2: playing like nah man like disable that. I don't want 120 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 2: any of that. But there were some people who really 121 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 2: really missed that personalization, and that personalization was pretty broad. 122 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 2: You could change the background of your page, you could 123 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 2: change the font, you could add music, you could have 124 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 2: a custom flashing cursor if you wanted to. Most people 125 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 2: just did this by copy pasting bits of code into 126 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 2: a form on the site, but if you knew a 127 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 2: little bit of HTML and CSS, you could really start 128 00:06:57,520 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 2: making that page look like your own. It was a 129 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 2: fun way for people who were even a little bit 130 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 2: interested in computers to get to play around with code. 131 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 2: And for nineteen year old Sammy Kumcar, who was already 132 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 2: very familiar with coding, this was like being a kid 133 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 2: in a candy store. October fourth, two thousand and five 134 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 2: what happens. 135 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: So MySpace has all this customizability, and Sammy was playing 136 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: around with some of this because you can set on 137 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: my Space that you're in a relationship. There's a drop 138 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: down and where there are the options I'm in a 139 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: solid relationship, a shaky relationship, whatever. There's like a few options, 140 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: and you only get those options. Well, he's like, well, 141 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: what if I just tell it that I'm in a 142 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: hot relationship? And he was able to modify the code 143 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: on his own computer and submit that to the server, 144 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: and the server accepted it. So suddenly he's in a 145 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: relationship that no one else is in a relationship with 146 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: and it's like, well, how did he set that? And 147 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: there was some other stuff like how many photos you 148 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: could upload. I think there was a photo limit of twelve, 149 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: but he had uploaded an extra one or thirteen. 150 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 2: Growing up, Sammy loved computers and he loved messing around 151 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 2: with him. When he was a kid, he'd figured out 152 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 2: how to hack the computer game counter Strike so that 153 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 2: he was essentially a god in the game. When he 154 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 2: flipped that switch, nobody could beat him. And for some 155 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 2: people that's all they want. They just want to win. 156 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 2: But Sammy got bored after that. He didn't want to 157 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 2: play counter Strike anymore. 158 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, because it became so easy for him. He could 159 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: just beat anybody. But there was an anti cheat maker 160 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: that came out that started detecting things that he was 161 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: doing and saying, okay, well that's no longer doable in 162 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 1: the game. And he's like, wow, well that gives me 163 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: a whole new challenge here now, how to figure out 164 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: how big cheats to not be detected by anti cheat 165 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: And so he got back into it just to try 166 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: to bypass the anti cheats there, and that became a 167 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 1: whole new thing for him. 168 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 2: Right, so it's not even playing counter Strike anymore, it's 169 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:48,719 Speaker 2: like playing the game off top of Counterstrike. It's like 170 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 2: playing cat and mouse with the company. So you can 171 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 2: kind of see that Sammy just likes taking stuff apart 172 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 2: and putting it back together again. He likes challenges. And 173 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 2: on MySpace, Sammy realized that he could just write some 174 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 2: JavaScript code on the client side and get MySpace to 175 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 2: display stuff that the creators had not intended, like he 176 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 2: wrote a funny comment in the relationship status section. For him, 177 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 2: this stuff was all pretty rudimentary, so he kept poking around. 178 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: So he was playing around with all these different things 179 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: that you could do on MySpace, and he found a 180 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: way to make it so that if somebody visited his page, 181 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: it would make them follow him. I think it was 182 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: JavaScript code that he was able to embed into his 183 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: page that would force the person the visitor to follow him. 184 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 1: But you'd still have to have someone come to your 185 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: page in order to get someone to follow you. 186 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 2: But then he. 187 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: Figured out how to replicate this, how to make it 188 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: so that anybody who visited his page would then get 189 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: this code on their MySpace page, which would mean that 190 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 1: everyone who visited someone else who had this code wouldn't 191 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 1: follow Sammy, and not only would they follow him, but 192 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: they would comment on their MySpace page Sabby is my Hero. 193 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 2: Basically, Sammy embedded code on his page that spread to 194 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 2: any page that looked at his and any page that 195 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 2: looked at that page would also get infected with the 196 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,559 Speaker 2: code as well. Maybe you're starting to see where this 197 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,199 Speaker 2: is going, But the important part here is that on 198 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 2: each page that had been infected, it would go after 199 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 2: the person's bio and insert the text at the bottom. 200 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 2: But most of all, Sammy is my hero. 201 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: And so people would visit someone else's page, suddenly follow Sammy, 202 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 1: and then have it say Sammy's my hero on their page, 203 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: and they're like, wait, who's this guy Sammy? And why 204 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: does it say he's my hero. 205 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 2: At first, it's not really a big deal. It's spreading 206 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 2: to his friends and maybe friends of friends. So Sammy 207 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 2: goes to bed that night thinking that he's just played 208 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 2: a silly prank on his friends on the internet. 209 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: But then the next morning, when he woke up, he 210 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: had ten thousand followers on MySpace, and that really blew 211 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: his mind. He knew something had gone terribly wrong to 212 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:56,559 Speaker 1: get ten thousand followers. 213 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 2: So remember this is two thousand and five, and back then, 214 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 2: ten thousand friends was a really monumental number. I'm not 215 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 2: even sure he knew that there were ten thousand people 216 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 2: on MySpace. 217 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 4: At that point, I just freak out. I have no 218 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 4: idea what to do. I'm sitting in my apartment and 219 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 4: I'm kind of baffled. So I realized, like, oops, I 220 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 4: just wrote a virus and what should I do. 221 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 2: That's the voice of Sammy on Jack's podcast, The Darknet Diaries. 222 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 2: And because the spread was exponential, the numbers just kept 223 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 2: going up. Another hour later, it was at fifty thousand. 224 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 4: When fifty one hundred thousand, I couldn't think about anything. 225 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 4: It was just refreshing. Went home, five hundred thousand, six 226 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 4: hundred thousand. It hits a million. I just take a 227 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 4: screenshot because I'm just like that. That's a lot of people. 228 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 4: I had the idea that many people were even on 229 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:45,439 Speaker 4: my spence. 230 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 2: Sammy now realizes that he's created a virus. Actually, it's worse. 231 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 2: He's created a worm, a piece of code that is 232 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:57,679 Speaker 2: self replicating, and this worm is spreading through all of 233 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 2: my space. But what happens next even Sammy couldn't predict. 234 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 2: That's after break. Sammy's a little bit of code has started 235 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 2: as a joke. He figured that maybe in a couple 236 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 2: of weeks or so it reached a couple hundred people max. 237 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 2: But in less than twenty hours, Sammy knkard had a 238 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:34,679 Speaker 2: million friends. This had gotten completely out of his control. 239 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 1: He knows something has gone terribly awry. He thought maybe 240 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: he'd get a few hundred followers or something out of 241 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: this and then be able to turn it off. But 242 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: at this point, it feels like the momentum is going 243 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 1: so fast that he's having a hard time controlling it. 244 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: And even if you go to Sammy's page and you 245 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 1: unfollow him, what happens is it says, okay, you're no 246 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: longer following them, and then it goes back to your page, 247 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 1: and your page has the code to follow him, so 248 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 1: people can't even unfollow him, and if they wanted to, 249 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: they're like, why why am I permanently following you? This 250 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 1: is ridiculous. 251 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 2: So are people messaging Sammy at this point? 252 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're confused, like who are you? How do I 253 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: unfollow you? And he's not sure because he can't pull 254 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: this back. He can't go to everyone else's MySpace page 255 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: and remove their code, so he's like, oh man, I 256 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 1: don't know how to turn this off. It almost seems 257 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 1: like everyone on my space is going to eventually follow 258 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: him because there's no other logical end to this. 259 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 2: This was all an accident. Sammy had no idea that 260 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 2: what he'd created would spread this far, so he removes 261 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 2: the code from his page, but that doesn't help because 262 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 2: it's already spreading too fast. So he wants to help 263 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 2: stop it, and he gets an idea he could go 264 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 2: straight to my space like irol. 265 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: He actually lived in the same town as them, both 266 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:50,319 Speaker 1: in Los Angeles, and he's like, should I just go 267 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: over there and tell him I did this and to 268 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:54,839 Speaker 1: give him some suggestions on what to do. 269 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 2: So at first, and I wish I was making this up. 270 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 2: He thinks, Okay, maybe I could just like buy some 271 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 2: coffee and donuts and show up at MySpace office and 272 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 2: help them fix it, like give them the donuts, give 273 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 2: the coffee, sit down, crack on knuckles, write some code, 274 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 2: patch things up, all good. But then he thinks about 275 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 2: it and he realizes, Okay, maybe that's not the best idea. 276 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 2: Maybe I should just send them an anonymous message. So 277 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 2: he emails them and says, here's some tips on how 278 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 2: to handle this. It was vague but specific at the 279 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 2: same time, like you didn't want to say who he was. 280 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 2: But he was like, you might want to go in 281 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 2: here and disable this or do this. Here's some SQL 282 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 2: queries to look for these strings and you'll find the 283 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 2: code and you can delete it off everyone's page. He 284 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 2: wanted to be. 285 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: Helpful, he did not because he realized, oh no, I've 286 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: caused a big problem here. Fox had actually bought my 287 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: Space just before this. He's thinking about this, like, Fox 288 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: might be really mad. What do I do if they're 289 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: coming after me? This is a big problem. He's trying 290 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: to help what he can, but he also doesn't want 291 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: to get himself in trouble. But it's really hard because 292 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 1: everything is pointing to his page and it's got his 293 00:14:58,960 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: name on it and everything. 294 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 2: He's got his literal name on it. 295 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, so he's just refreshing it and looking at the 296 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: numbers going up and up, and he's like, oh my gosh, 297 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: what do I do? And then eventually one of the 298 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: refreshes his page just says this page doesn't exist. 299 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 2: It's gone. 300 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: His page was deleted or at least disabled for a while, 301 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: and he's like, okay, that's fine. So then he looks at, 302 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: you know, some of his friend's pages and they're all deleted, 303 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: they're all disabled. And he's looking at everybody who's trying 304 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: to follow him and they're all disabled, and they're all deleted. 305 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: And then he refreshes the page again and it says, sorry, 306 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: my space is down. We are taking it all offline. 307 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: We're doing some maintenance. We'll be back shortly. 308 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 2: Sammy's a little bit of code ended up bringing MySpace 309 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 2: to its knees. It shut the whole site down. So 310 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 2: I kind of remember this happening. This was back when 311 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 2: I was in college and there was this Bobo shop 312 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 2: next to campus, and I think they had these three 313 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 2: Windows computers installed on the wall so that you could 314 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 2: use your computer while you waited for your order, and 315 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 2: people who were a MySpace would go there and log 316 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 2: in and check their messages. And yes, logging into your 317 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 2: social media on an unsecured public machine is absolutely terrible 318 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 2: security practice, but I don't know, people just didn't know 319 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 2: any better, I guess. So Yeah, Anyway, one day, I 320 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 2: think people were probably at home and their MySpace wasn't 321 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 2: working on their home computer, so they came to the 322 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 2: cafe to log in, and it didn't work there either, 323 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 2: but they'd already bought their boba, so people just had 324 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 2: to wait there awkwardly like normal human beings for the 325 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 2: drink order. Kind of inconvenient, but for Sammy that day 326 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 2: wasn't just inconvenient. Dude was sweating bullets. So after a while, 327 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 2: MySpace fixes the problem and it comes back all nine. 328 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 2: It's slow for a few days, but eventually it's back 329 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 2: to normal and that's it. It's back, And for a while, 330 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 2: Sammy thought that, Okay, maybe this is just a blip 331 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 2: and everyone would just move on and forget it all happened. 332 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: The days after that, nothing happened, and the weeks after that, 333 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: nothing happened. She's like, Okay, I think I'll stay away 334 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: from his space for a while. I'll just lay low 335 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: because whatever happened there, I don't want to make it worse. 336 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 1: So let's just hope this is in the past. So 337 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:11,159 Speaker 1: he went back to doing his work, and at that 338 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: point he had started a business. 339 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 2: During that time period, Sammy had co founded a company 340 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 2: called Finality that used the Internet to make phone calls 341 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 2: instead of relying on traditional phone lines, and at the time, 342 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 2: this was pretty cool technology. So we just focused on that. 343 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 2: That message he'd sent to MySpace never got answered, and 344 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 2: my Space itself didn't really seem to be looking for him. 345 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 2: Maybe they had just let it go. So Sammy got 346 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 2: back to work. 347 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: At some point, You're just like, Okay, everybody's just gone 348 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,439 Speaker 1: their way. They fixed it, and that's just it. You know, 349 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,479 Speaker 1: you fix incidents all the time at work, and I 350 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: think he thought that everything was going to be fine. 351 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: So it was a big surprise to him to find 352 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 1: the Secret Service we're after him. The business was doing 353 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,959 Speaker 1: really well, so he actually bought himself a Porsche and 354 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: was driving that thing around town and so he was 355 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: having a good time. And one day he went out 356 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: out to the parking lot to kit in his car 357 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: and there was some guys standing around his car and 358 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 1: he's like, oh, man, are these guys gonna rob me? 359 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: Or what's going on? And one of them shouted, hey, 360 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 1: are you Sammy. He's like, oh gosh, usually people who 361 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: robbed me and they don't know your name. So let's 362 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: see what's going on here, and it was the Secret Service. 363 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 1: They took him to his house and they confiscated all 364 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: his computers and I said, you're being investigated for taking 365 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: down my Space. 366 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 2: It had been six months since that worom took down MySpace, 367 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 2: and now out of the blue, here's the Electronic Crimes 368 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 2: Task Force of the LAPD and the Secret Service coming 369 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 2: around asking questions. They had him under surveillance for months, 370 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 2: and they had a search warrant for his house and 371 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 2: his office. They took his laptop, they took his hard drives, 372 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 2: even took his iPod. The DA ended up hitting Sammy 373 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 2: with a felony hacking charge, and prosecutors wanted him to 374 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,239 Speaker 2: spend some time in prison and not be able to 375 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 2: touch computers for the rest of his life. Sammy freaked 376 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 2: out and he ended up taking a plea deal exchange 377 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 2: for not having to go to prison. He paid a 378 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 2: twenty thousand dollars fine, he had to complete seven hundred 379 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:10,399 Speaker 2: and twenty hours of community service and three years of probation. Oh, 380 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 2: and he couldn't use computers. Well, he could use one computer, 381 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 2: but that computer had to be registered with authorities and 382 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 2: it couldn't access the Internet. Now keep in mind here, 383 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 2: Sammy's whole life and work had revolved around technology to 384 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 2: this point, so not being able to use an Internet 385 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 2: enabled computer was kind of like telling them, Okay, yeah, 386 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 2: here kid, have a typewriter, go do your job. At 387 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 2: this point in his life, the Internet was his livelihood 388 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 2: and it's how he was able to support his mom. 389 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: He was paying her rent and helping her out and 390 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,679 Speaker 1: all that. And so his startup that he had started, 391 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,120 Speaker 1: he had a very difficult time doing any work there 392 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: because that was all computer based work that he was doing. 393 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 1: So I don't know if he was making a salary 394 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: during that time to help her anymore anything, And it was. 395 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 2: Tough for Sammy. It meant that he could do a 396 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 2: lot of the stuff that he used to, but he 397 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 2: tried to look at the bright side. Sammy told Vice 398 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 2: his motherboard how it forced him to go outside and 399 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 2: touch grass. 400 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 4: I kind of started a new chapter of life because 401 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 4: I spent my entire life just in front of the computer, 402 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 4: and finally this like got me out. I just spent 403 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 4: a lot of time doing other things that I think 404 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 4: normal people did. 405 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 2: But barring access to computers was like barring Sammy from 406 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 2: accessing a part of himself. This was someone who really 407 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 2: loved computers and who says that he didn't mean to 408 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 2: write a worm in the first place. 409 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: Some of these hackers who have been in trouble have 410 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: had that sentence brought to them where they're banned from 411 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: computers for life. It's always frustrating to me because there's 412 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 1: obviously these people are very talented and skilled and trying 413 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 1: to take their way of making money away their livelihood. 414 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,199 Speaker 1: I mean even a cash register as a computer at 415 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: this point. It's so sad to see them take that 416 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 1: away when that's the thing that their best at in 417 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: life and the most passionate thing. I think what's better 418 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: is to try to figure out how to use their 419 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: skills for good and to determine is this person, you know, rehabbable. 420 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 1: Are they just trying to burn the world down and 421 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: no matter how well we try to turn them in 422 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 1: the right way, they're just going to destroy everything. Or 423 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 1: is this somebody who we can use their skills for 424 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: some net benefit on society or you know, it wasn't 425 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 1: like he was trying to do anything malicious. I think 426 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: at Samy's core, he's not a malicious person. He's just 427 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,479 Speaker 1: someone who's curious and interested in technology, and he's not 428 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: trying to harm anybody or hurt anything. I've since met 429 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: him and hung out with him quite a few times, 430 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: and he is just such a sweetheart. He loves learning stuff, 431 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: and he's just so deep down in the technology of 432 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,880 Speaker 1: it that he's extremely brilliant, like one of the more 433 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: brilliant folks I know when it comes to not so 434 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: much seeing what the technology does, but seeing what it 435 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: could potentially do. He's just really fascinated with the way 436 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:50,880 Speaker 1: technology works and likes exploring it. 437 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 2: Let's say it's two thousand and five. You're at MySpace. 438 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 2: You're tom right. Yeah, you find out that somebody has 439 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 2: done something to your website, taken it down for a day, 440 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 2: You figure out who this kid is, what's the appropriate 441 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 2: punishment here? What do you do? Press chargers? 442 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,239 Speaker 1: I wouldn't. I would feel like our code wasn't up 443 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: to snuff. We had not you know, fortified it enough, 444 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: and somebody found a vulnerability. So this was a surprise 445 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 1: vulnerability assessment. That's that their ownership's on us, right, and 446 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: we can't just assume everyone is just like a criminal 447 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 1: if they've done something wrong on our website and try 448 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: to take them down. But yeah, I think if I was, yeah, 449 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: my Space exec, I'd try to take ownership of this 450 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 1: and say, you know what, this was something we should 451 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: have done better, and it's okay, we've solved it. We 452 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: were only down for a day. That's not too bad. 453 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: It's not like there was a lot of damage done. 454 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,640 Speaker 1: Somebody posted this little bit of JavaScript on their page 455 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: and that accidentally spread everywhere. I don't think that's criminal behavior. 456 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: I think that's just a problem that we we should 457 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: have addressed. 458 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 2: Sammy eventually managed to get back online, and we'll talk 459 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 2: about that in just a minute, but first we need 460 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 2: to talk about how the sami worm changed how the 461 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 2: modern Internet looks. We'll get into that after the break. 462 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 2: What do you think the industry learned after the sami worm? 463 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 2: Have they learned anything? 464 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. So, as I was talking about, at that time, 465 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: we were moving into the web two point zero stage, which 466 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: is now users can add data to a website. They 467 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: can put their pictures up there, they could put texts, 468 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,239 Speaker 1: they could put other things, and in this case, they 469 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: can put JavaScript up there. And the internet has learned. 470 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 1: The Internet providers or the web page runners, people, edmins, 471 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 1: devs and stuff have learned don't trust anything that a 472 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: user does, sanitizer inputs, check it for what's valid and 473 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: not valid, and don't allow for anything to be uploaded 474 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: that isn't on this strict allow list, because when you 475 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,640 Speaker 1: start letting people put up whatever they want, now you've 476 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: run into huge problems like this Sammy werm And So 477 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: I think this was a lesson that probably a lot 478 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 1: of social media companies learn that. Don't allow people to 479 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 1: put JavaScript up. 480 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 2: That's a no no. 481 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: And I don't think you could find a single social 482 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,160 Speaker 1: media site that allows the user to add JavaScript into 483 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: the page, because that would you could add a cryptomindor 484 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 1: to anybody who visited your website. Right, Like, there's lots 485 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 1: of things that could go wrong by letting the user 486 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: put JavaScript on their profile. You've got to really limit 487 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,880 Speaker 1: what users can do when they're adding content to your website. 488 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 2: For example, Facebook, which eventually overtook MySpace as the biggest 489 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 2: social media platform, it didn't allow you to customize anything. 490 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 2: And that's pretty much how all our social media is now, 491 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 2: and casual users don't know hdmil anymore like we used to, 492 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 2: like back in the MySpace era, even somebody who wasn't 493 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 2: really into computers could kind of navigate their way around 494 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 2: little snippets of code because we were motivated to because look, 495 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 2: if you want to put that sparkly Snoop Dogg animated 496 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 2: gift on your profile, that is some pretty powerful motivation 497 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,199 Speaker 2: to start looking at some code. Is that the correct 498 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 2: decision is to make things more sanitized, more flat? 499 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: Maybe yeah, maybe that's the situation is that Facebook was like, 500 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 1: look what you guys did over there, We're not going 501 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: to let our users get crazy like that. And maybe 502 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 1: that was the appropriate response just from a security level, 503 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: because yeah, when users start adding their own stuff, they 504 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: can take over the whole website and you've got to 505 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: be very careful about what they can do there. 506 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 2: Okay, Now, granted Facebook did start out pretty uncustomizable to 507 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 2: begin with, but maybe the Sammy worn't for them was 508 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 2: kind of an I told you so moment and they 509 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 2: weren't wrong. I mean, if you look at the Internet today, 510 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 2: you can see the impact. Everything kind of looks the same. 511 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 2: There's this clean aesthetic, and customization is minimal to nonexistent. 512 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 2: I mean, Twitter no customization, substack, basically none. I mean 513 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 2: even website builders like Squarespace, they're basically just modular blocks 514 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 2: that you can move bit to the page around. You 515 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 2: almost never really get to mess with the code. And 516 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 2: I'm not saying that this is because of the Sami worm, 517 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 2: but the do it yourself customization that was part of 518 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 2: what made MySpace fun is mostly gone or at least 519 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,679 Speaker 2: hidden from the Internet today. And you can understand why. 520 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 2: If you open up your platform to let people tweak 521 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 2: the code, you also open it up to vulnerabilities. But 522 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 2: on top of that, the Sami worm also revealed that 523 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 2: even reputable websites that we trust. I mean, remember again, 524 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 2: MySpace was the social media platform back then. They might 525 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 2: not be as secure as we would expect them to be. 526 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 1: I think just us as a society assumes that people 527 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 1: have taken care of the security of their app and 528 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: site and all that stuff. And it's like, well, obviously 529 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 1: one hundred thousand people wouldn't have downloaded this if it's 530 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 1: not secure, so I'll trust it as well. And so 531 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 1: you have this kind of social proof. But also you 532 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: just have this expectation that the website you're dealing with 533 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: it uses the highest security and the best privacy and 534 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff, and you don't question it. 535 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,880 Speaker 1: You just assume it. And I think that's our problem. 536 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: I've kind of switched it in my mind after covering 537 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,640 Speaker 1: stories like this myself. I assume that they're not using 538 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: the best security of privacy, and therefore I'm definitely not 539 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: going to share my data with them. I don't give 540 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 1: my real name, or I use a burner email and 541 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 1: a burner phone and the fake address and even a 542 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 1: burner credit card when interacting with most sites today. 543 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,719 Speaker 2: So Jack takes his digital security to another level. And 544 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 2: again it makes sense from all those hackers he's talked 545 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 2: to on Dark Knight diaries because he knows how vulnerable 546 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 2: your information can be if you just put it out there. 547 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 2: But not all hackers are out there to steal your information. 548 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 2: Sammy's an example of someone who's curiosity led him to 549 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 2: look for those vulnerabilities and then to warn people about them. 550 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:00,440 Speaker 2: In two thousand and eight, after three years of being 551 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 2: banned from the Internet, Samy was finally allowed to be 552 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 2: back online. So he left the courthouse that day, drove 553 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 2: straight to the Apple store, bought a PowerBook, and started 554 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 2: messing around. And one of the first things he did 555 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 2: was he started looking into credit cards. 556 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: There's a NFC readers in some of these cards, you 557 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 1: know how you tap to pay, Those are using NFC technology. 558 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: And he was saying to himself, well, wait a minute, 559 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: what's the communication that happens between these sort of things, 560 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 1: And is there a way that I can steal someone's 561 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,439 Speaker 1: credit card if I tap up against them? And so 562 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 1: that was one of his research projects that he did, 563 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: was to figure out how to clone NFC cards. And again, 564 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: he wasn't trying to steal credit cards in order to 565 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: sell them on the dark web or any of that 566 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: sort of thing. He was simply trying to understand this 567 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: technology so that he could share it with the world 568 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 1: make it a better security system, because I don't want 569 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: somebody bumping up to me in the line at the 570 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: store and stealing my card and then being able to 571 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: use it. So if he could tell the credit card makers, hey, 572 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: here's some problems with your card, maybe you should make 573 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: your card more secure, then I think that does help 574 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: make our cards more secure. 575 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 2: You've spoken to a pretty wide range of people, some 576 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 2: of whom have done some pretty you know, nefarious stuff. 577 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 2: Where does Sammy rank on that for you? 578 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 1: Sammy's a good guy. He's not out there to try 579 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: to make a bunch of money or steal things or 580 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 1: destroy the world. He's really just curious at his core, 581 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: and he loves finding things that the computer can do 582 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: that he might think to himself, well, if I can 583 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: do this, then it's probably the case that a lot 584 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,479 Speaker 1: of other people can do this. So it's not like 585 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: I'm inventing something new or breaking something. I'm just showing 586 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: you how this technology works that somebody could use it 587 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: in this way. It's not like he's trying to give 588 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: the world a weapon and say here go mess up 589 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: the world. He's trying to show the world, Hey, the 590 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: other people might be able to do this, and now 591 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: you can too, so let's even the playing field or 592 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: the people who make this technology should fix this. 593 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 2: This was a pretty wild outcome for someone who again 594 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 2: only a few years before that. It started out just 595 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 2: screwing around with Counterstrike. And there's probably some kids out 596 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 2: there who are also exploring video games just like Sammy, 597 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 2: but nowadays there are some more established roots to do 598 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 2: some pretty nefarious stuff. 599 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: I've seen this character arc and a lot of hackers though, 600 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 1: is that they play video games and they get bored 601 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: with it, then they try to hack it, and then 602 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: they do, and then they're like, well, but that was 603 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: just for fun. And then they learn more about hacking 604 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: and other circles and stuff, and they learn, oh wow, 605 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 1: that people are actually making money with this interesting and 606 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: so then that transfers into okay, here's how to earn 607 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: roebucks website and just try to get little kids to 608 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 1: come to our website to earn roebucks free roebucks, but 609 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: then we never give it to them. You now scamming 610 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:45,959 Speaker 1: the kids that are before you, which you're now familiar 611 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 1: with the roebucks because you just played the game for 612 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 1: the last ten years or something, and you're like, I 613 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: know everything about this game, so obviously I know how 614 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: to exploit it or exploit the user base or something 615 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: like that. And then you start finding users that want 616 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: to join you and they're like, hey, how do I 617 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: make money like you? And then starts scamming them even more, 618 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: and so you end up in that circle, and then 619 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: that just keeps going to something bigger, like cryptocurrency or 620 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: something else where you're just like, oh, well, why am 621 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: I looking at small potatoes. I could be stealing millions 622 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: instead of just a few robots here and there, and 623 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: that just turns you into the super criminal at that 624 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 1: point or something. And there is this path that I 625 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: see again and again where it starts with video games 626 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: and you get into these circles of people hacking and 627 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 1: scamming the game, and then it just keeps going from there. 628 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 2: And Sammy just got some extra friends. Yeah, that's what 629 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 2: he did. Given the punishment that Sammy had to go through, 630 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 2: it's kind of amazing that he still bounced back and 631 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 2: he's now continuing to work to help people by publicly 632 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 2: disclosing company security and privacy flaws and kind of holding 633 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 2: their feet to the fire to actually fix them. 634 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 1: History has kind of proven that the hackers are on 635 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: the right side. Before we even had hackers, we had 636 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: people who were testing the safety of cars and saying, hey, 637 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: we should be wearing seat belts, and the car makers 638 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: are like, nah, and it's fine, you don't need that. 639 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: And they're like, look, here's what's happening when people crash 640 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: without seat belts. You should have them wear seat belts. 641 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 1: They were thinking, these people were wrong to make such 642 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: a stink out of this right, stop making it look 643 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: like our cars aren't safe. 644 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 2: Our cars are safe. 645 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 1: And eventually those people want they said, yeah, seat belts 646 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 1: are incredibly safe. So that became the new thing of like, okay, 647 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 1: let's embrace these people who are crash testing our cars 648 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: and making sure that they are more of the solution 649 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: instead of more of the problem. And I think that's 650 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: the side we should look at here, which is do 651 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 1: we have a vulnerability in this technology or this website, 652 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: And if so, that's on us to fix that and 653 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: thank you for showing me that vulnerability. That will make 654 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: our whole system safer. But it's kind of frustrating because 655 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 1: if somebody comes to you and says, hey, your zippers down, 656 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: you have this instant feeling of shame and embarrassment and 657 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: the sort of thing. And so I think a lot 658 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: of people do feel that. When they get told their 659 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: website has a vulnerability, you get this emotional reaction. We 660 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 1: don't need that emotional reaction. Your slippers down, but thank 661 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: you for telling me. I appreciate him. Gonna get it 662 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:08,959 Speaker 1: back up. It's hard to handle criticism sometimes. 663 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 2: And Okay, maybe he did technically force over a million 664 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 2: people to say it, But twenty years later, it turns 665 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 2: out Sammy's little bit of code held some truth for hackers. 666 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 2: Sammy really is a hero. 667 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: Sammy is my hero. Is what you would hear people 668 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 1: shouting when you go to death Count. I mean, he's legendary. 669 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 1: You hear about him everywhere you go. 670 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,479 Speaker 2: Your big shout out to Jack Resider for talking with us, 671 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 2: and I'd definitely encourage you to check out his full 672 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 2: interview with Sammy Camcarr on the podcast The Dark Knight Diaries, 673 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 2: where they get into some other details that we couldn't 674 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 2: touch on here, like Sammy's work on drones, his podcast 675 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 2: in general, is a really good look at the hacking 676 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 2: culture that we were talking about today. So if any 677 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 2: of this interested you, definitely check it out and we'll 678 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 2: leave a link in the show notes to check that out. 679 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 2: But that being said, back to our show. Thank you 680 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,760 Speaker 2: so much for listening to another episode of kill Switch. 681 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:10,760 Speaker 2: If you want to talk to us, you can email 682 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 2: us at kill Switch at Kalaidoscope dot NYC, or on 683 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 2: Instagram or at kill switch pod. And while you're still 684 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 2: listening to this, you could think about leaving us a review. 685 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,839 Speaker 2: It helps other people find the show, which helps us 686 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 2: keep doing our thing, and it lets us know what 687 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,359 Speaker 2: people want to hear more of. And once you've done that, 688 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,840 Speaker 2: did you know it? Kill Switch is also on YouTube 689 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 2: and the link for that and everything else is in 690 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,760 Speaker 2: the show notes. Kill Switch is hosted by Me Dexter Thomas. 691 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 2: It's produced by sen Ozaki, Dar Luck Potts, and Julian Nutter. 692 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 2: Our theme song is by me and Kyle Murdoch, and 693 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 2: Kyle also mixed the show from Kalidoscope. Our executive producers 694 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 2: are Oswa lashin On, Geshat Togador and Kate Osborne from iHeart. 695 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,799 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Katrina norbl And nikki E Tour. 696 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:05,880 Speaker 2: That's it from us. We'll catch ya next week. M