1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. 2 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 2: There's an old adage, and I don't know if it's 3 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 2: scientifically provable. However, there's an old adage that says smoke 4 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 2: follows beauty, And if you've ever been seated around a campfire, 5 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:36,520 Speaker 2: it seems as though that every time you readjust due 6 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 2: to smoke, it does in fact follow you. Now, whether 7 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 2: or not I'm beautiful or not as certainly debatable, but 8 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 2: it does seem to follow us, doesn't it, no matter 9 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 2: how you readjust yourself. And I love a good campfire. 10 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 2: There's a place that I go to with just my 11 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 2: wife and I. It's a little island in the middle 12 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 2: of a river that we cruise up and down in 13 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 2: our boat and we bring wood with us and we'll 14 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 2: just sit there by the fire on this little island. 15 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 2: I enjoyed the warmth of it. I enjoy the peace 16 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 2: of it, just listening to the water and the sound 17 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 2: of the birds. But you know, I got to tell you, 18 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 2: a fire and smoke, we do find peace in it. 19 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 2: But you know, they're two of the most destructive elements 20 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 2: in the world as well. They wreak havoc and I 21 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:34,680 Speaker 2: have stood over bodies for years working house fires and 22 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 2: accidental events involving explosions where fire resulted, and sometimes sometimes 23 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 2: fire and smoke wipe away everything, including evidence. But in 24 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 2: the case I want to discuss with you today, the 25 00:01:54,200 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 2: absence of something actually led to the conviction of a murderer. 26 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 2: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body bags. Now, Dave, 27 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 2: I got to tell you, I'm I'm not going to 28 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 2: say you're beautiful, but you're a rather handsome man. Smoke 29 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 2: does smoke and follow you when you go out to 30 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 2: sit around a campfire. At any point in time, has 31 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 2: it ever followed you? You know the old song smoke 32 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 2: gets in your eyes? 33 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 3: Oh goodness, Yeah, the platters, Yeah yeah, smoke from a 34 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 3: distant fire sandforjians and man, wow, we could play I know, 35 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 3: we could play this all day. 36 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 2: Smoke on the water. Hey, we didn't touch that. No, 37 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 2: sometimes we shouldn't. 38 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 3: At any rate, I've never actually heard that term used 39 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 3: that way. 40 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, smoke follows beauty. Yeah, it's it's inconvenient because 41 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,639 Speaker 2: it does follow you. But you know, Dave, I got 42 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 2: to tell you. You know, with smoke and forensics, we know 43 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 2: we don't just look at the destruction of of that 44 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 2: fire causes in fire related deaths. But we also look 45 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 2: at the evidence that smoke actually leaves behind, and in 46 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 2: the case that. 47 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 3: The evidence that smoke leaves behind. 48 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, the smoke, the smoke, and you know, because the 49 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 2: smoke is evidence of an item being consumed. Right, And 50 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 2: if you look, and I urge anybody that's listening to 51 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 2: us today, the next time you're around a fire, hopefully 52 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 2: a controlled firelight can't fire, pay close attention to the 53 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 2: fire itself because not everything is consumed by the fire 54 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 2: and the heat itself. You'll see things that kind of 55 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 2: go up in the air. They'll be debris contained, you know, 56 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 2: little bits of debris, ash, that sort of thing. And 57 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 2: then the smoke itself does in fact leave behind evidence 58 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 2: of things at a chemical level as well, and the 59 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 2: smoke carries that like on a magic carpet almost that 60 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 2: comes into our bodies. Kind of cool, isn't it is? Now? 61 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 3: Think about that and knowing that today we're talking about 62 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 3: the death of a woman twenty seven years old, Melissa Lamish, 63 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 3: who was nine months pregnant. She was due any day. 64 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 3: So we've got a baby that is viable. We're not 65 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 3: just we has been viable for some time, Dave, the 66 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 3: baby can be born and be healthy. And that's what 67 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 3: we were dealing with here. So we're not just talking 68 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 3: about the death of a pregnant woman. We're talking about 69 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 3: the death of two people here, one an infant yet 70 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 3: to be born and the others only twenty seven years old. 71 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 3: And Melissa Lamish and her body was discovered in a fire, 72 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 3: and I went to a couple of different sites looking 73 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 3: for how it was initially reported. Her death was reported 74 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 3: as she died in a fire, and I thought, Okay, 75 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 3: it happens. People do die in fires. I know this, 76 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 3: but knowing the Paul Harvey on this the rest of 77 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 3: the story, I was shocked at the way it was 78 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 3: initially reported because the reason we're talking about this today 79 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 3: is it wasn't just a fire. And as a matter 80 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 3: of fact, Joe, did Melissa Lamish and her unborn nine 81 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 3: month old baby, ready to be born baby, did they 82 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 3: die from a fire or did they die somewhere else, 83 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 3: someway else. 84 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 2: Rather, let's go back just a second, because a lot 85 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 2: of folks out there when they hear the term dying 86 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 2: in a fire or dying as a result of a fire, 87 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 2: I think that many people mistakenly assume that these cases 88 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 2: that we work as death investigators, people are literally burned 89 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 2: to death. Yeah, you know that's not it that that 90 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 2: is not the rule. That most of the time, that 91 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 2: is not the rule. Now, you can have cases where 92 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 2: as a matter of fact, I'll give you an example. 93 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 2: Do you recall from when we were kids, there was 94 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 2: that there's that class I think it won actually one 95 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 2: of a Pulitzer Prize. There was that that image of 96 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 2: the Buddhist monk that had set himself on fire and 97 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 2: struck a match. You know, he poured gas or an 98 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 2: accelerant all over his body, and I think that was 99 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 2: in protest of the war. If he was mistaken, a 100 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 2: bit of irony that As a matter of fact, I 101 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 2: was just lecturing on this this past week on fire 102 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 2: related desks at Jacksonville State and I'd never paid attention 103 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 2: really to this before. I had two photos of that event, 104 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 2: and one was taken so that you're looking back over 105 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 2: his burning body into the street, and there is a 106 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 2: guy he looks like a policeman, and he's casually walking 107 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 2: toward toward the the body of the guy that's on fire. 108 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 2: I guess he's stole alive at that point in time, 109 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 2: and Dave, he's taking a cigarette out of a pack 110 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 2: as he's approaching the body. And I know that that's 111 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 2: just and everybody smoked back then, right, you know, our 112 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 2: parents smoked. Everybody smoke. So but it's just you know, 113 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:00,040 Speaker 2: you capture that image and you know your mind and 114 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 2: can go to really dark places when you begin to 115 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 2: think about it. But most people do not necessarily burn up. Now, 116 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 2: people die of burns many times. That happens where people 117 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 2: sustain such extensive burning that they have to go to 118 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 2: the hospital. They're on the burn unit for a protracted 119 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 2: period of time. And the main thing that actually winds 120 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 2: up killing individuals or causes of death, it came about 121 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 2: as a result of the fire. But many of these 122 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 2: people die except to seemia because they just developed widespread infections. 123 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 2: And you wouldn't believe some of the things that are 124 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 2: done to patients that have sustained burns. I think probably 125 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 2: one of the most painful things you hear them talk 126 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 2: about is these individuals that have to be scrubbed. They're 127 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 2: scrubbed with a special soap and they have to remove 128 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 2: the dead skin because within there you have this kind 129 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 2: of necrotic thing going on where infection can set it 130 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 2: and as the nerve endings begin to come back, it's 131 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 2: very painful. I mean, it's one of the most horrible 132 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 2: things in the world. Burn units are horrible places to 133 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 2: go to. There's always kind of this foul odor that's there. 134 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 2: And one of things that was so shocking that I 135 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 2: would work as a death investigator or somebody that had 136 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 2: been on a burn unit and they finally died, they 137 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 2: would have gone through many times, multiple surgeries. And I'm 138 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 2: not talking about for skin graphs. Did you know that 139 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 2: when people are burned, they will do these long north 140 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 2: south incisions all over the body and they're left open. 141 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 2: And the reason that occurs is so that as the 142 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 2: healing process takes place, or as they are sitting there 143 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 2: kind of in stasis in place, the skin doesn't split, 144 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 2: and so they actually go ahead and open the skin up, 145 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 2: and again that has the potential for sepsis as well. 146 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 2: It's a very dicey environment to be in. So when 147 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 2: you hear people say, well, they burn to death or 148 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 2: they died as a result of a fire, you have 149 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:07,199 Speaker 2: to qualify that because most people that are in an environment, 150 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:11,199 Speaker 2: particularly like a closed dwelling, a home, not so much 151 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 2: out in. Yeah, a home or car if they're trapped 152 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 2: in the car and there's flame, and the flame is remember, 153 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 2: flames consume things, you know famously, there's that line that 154 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 2: Robert de Niro used in Backdraft. He said that you 155 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 2: have to envision fire as a living, breathing entity, and 156 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 2: it truly is. It's consuming oxygen. It's trying to seek 157 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 2: a height so it can get to as much oxygen 158 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 2: as it can. You're there in that environment. And what 159 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 2: did they always tell us in the event of a 160 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 2: house arm when we were kids, do we stand up 161 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 2: and walk? Frown? Low, down, load, Baby? You got to crawl. 162 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 2: And if you crawl, there might still be oxygen at 163 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 2: that level, and you're not going to be inhalating as 164 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 2: much smoke. And what's really the killer here, The lethal 165 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 2: portion of this is the inhalation of the to breathe 166 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 2: the smoke itself, because it is a pathway for all 167 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 2: kinds of toxins. 168 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 3: I just remember Dick Van Dyke's public service announcement, stop 169 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 3: drop and roll. 170 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, man, I'd forgotten all about that, And there's 171 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 2: a lot of truth to that. And stop. Drop and 172 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 2: roll actually comes from individuals that are literally ignited, you know, 173 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 2: where the clothing catches on fire and you're having to 174 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 2: roll about, and the idea is to if you roll, 175 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 2: you're going to extinguish the fire as you roll back 176 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 2: and forth. Kind of a funny little story. When my 177 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 2: wife and I first got married, she would come into 178 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 2: the bathroom and take a seat and talk to me 179 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 2: while I was in the shower because I worked night 180 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 2: tom and I worked at nights, and so I would 181 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,439 Speaker 2: take a shower late at night before I would get 182 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 2: in the car and go to the medical examiner's office. 183 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 2: And she always burned candles. Always, she had candle burning 184 00:10:58,440 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 2: all over the house. Of course now they say that 185 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 2: there well everything in this world is lethal, it seems 186 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 2: like now. But she had the big kind of nineties hair, 187 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 2: you know with the hair spray, and I was I looked, 188 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 2: I looked around the corner of the shower curtain to respond. 189 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 2: You ever do that where you have to make it 190 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 2: on contact, And we were kind of joking back and forward. 191 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 2: So I pulled the court the curtain back to look 192 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 2: at her to make a response, and Dave, the back 193 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 2: of her head was on fire, and she she had 194 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:30,559 Speaker 2: leaned back on the toilet and the candle was there 195 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 2: and it caught it. And I had to take the 196 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 2: shower curtain and wrapping around her head, and she I 197 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 2: don't know. I guess she thought I was about to 198 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 2: murder or something. She didn't know. Soon it was evident 199 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 2: because of the smell in the air of the hair burning. Wow, 200 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 2: but you know that that does happen. And it's not 201 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 2: just the flame itself that's so damaging. It's not just 202 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 2: the smoke. But here's another thing, and this is something 203 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 2: that we we tried to find at autopsy. You've got 204 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:04,439 Speaker 2: super heated air in this environment, and the flames are 205 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 2: obviously very dangerous. Smoke is very dangerous, but when you're 206 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 2: you're inhaling superheated air, it is actually burning your your nostrils, 207 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 2: the interior of your nostrils, all those us mucoid linings 208 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 2: in there, the intier of your mouth, and even down 209 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 2: your throat. And so what happens at autopsy when we 210 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 2: begin to explore these areas at autopsy, you'll see this 211 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 2: kind of inflamed red area that's there, and it'll really 212 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 2: give you an idea as to how first off, how 213 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 2: long they were exposed to breathing up this hot air. 214 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 2: But Dave, here's the thing. If you're absent these kind 215 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 2: of scorched linings, if you can't find anything relative to that, 216 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 2: your answer relative to the cause of death rest somewhere else. 217 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 2: Fire setters, fire bugs, power of maniacs. They go by 218 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 2: a litany of names that are out there. Who sets fires, 219 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 2: Why do they set fires? There's all kinds of motivations 220 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 2: for doing it. The biggest thing I think most of 221 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 2: the time from a criminal standpoint, you know, you get 222 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 2: off into power mane, you start talking about sexual related stuff, 223 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 2: and that is a real thing. But you begin to 224 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 2: think about, you know, why do people set fires? And 225 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 2: I don't know if you agree with me, Dave, I 226 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 2: think most of the time it's they have an idea 227 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 2: that they're going to eradicate something, that they're going to erase, 228 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 2: something that they're going to get rid of evidence. I 229 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 2: got to tell you, Buba, most of the time, when 230 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 2: people intentionally set a fire, they don't realize this. They 231 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 2: might erapicate some evidence, but you know what, at the 232 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 2: end of the day, they wind up creating different evidence 233 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 2: and more evidence. Lots of Tom's, and I don't think 234 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 2: that they fully grasp. 235 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 3: That the things I don't know until I talk to 236 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 3: you are the list is getting longer because I didn't know. 237 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 3: I thought, Okay, in this particular case, we have a 238 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 3: twenty seven year old woman dead. They say it's dead 239 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 3: from fire. But right away, as she's an EMT, did 240 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 3: we say that already? Okay, let me give you the background. 241 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 3: She's actually on maternity lee, not maternity leave, but she 242 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 3: has taken time off in preparation for the arrival of 243 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 3: her first child, and then she'll have some time off 244 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 3: after that. 245 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, could you imagine an EMT being nine 246 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 2: routes pregnant and having to handle a garnie gun an 247 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 2: interior staircase? Can you imaginet her a little time off? 248 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 2: But let me give you a little insight into Melissa Leimesh. 249 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 2: At twenty seven years old, she actually had a side hustle, 250 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 2: a side gig. She actually hosted trivia nights with pub 251 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 2: Trivia USA. It's a national It's a company that basically 252 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 2: pays people to go and they host a game night 253 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 2: in these different little pubs and things. And you've got 254 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 2: to have a pretty big personality, gotta be quick on 255 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 2: your feet, gotta be fairly smart, and you have to 256 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 2: keep the game moving along. That's the type of person 257 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 2: we're talking about. Somebody the people like to be around 258 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 2: and was fun, genial. I just I find it interesting 259 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 2: because oftentimes we don't realize what we're missing because we 260 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 2: don't know that person personally. 261 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 3: That's who we're talking about. Somebody like that at twenty seven, 262 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 3: that is expecting her first child. Now, the setup for 263 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 3: that day, earlier in the day, her ex boyfriend who 264 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 3: is the father of her unborn child. He came by. 265 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 3: His name is Matthew plot Now Matthew Ploat is thirty 266 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 3: six years old, and he came by to see her 267 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 3: earlier in the day. I don't know a lot about 268 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 3: their bad their relationship or anything else. You know, you 269 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 3: just kind of know that he's an empt as well. 270 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 3: So they met on common footing there and they were 271 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 3: expecting their first child. The report is that, of course 272 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 3: they are exes, they're not involved in a relationship at 273 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 3: this time, and she is about to give birth. So 274 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 3: he goes over to see her that day, and from 275 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 3: what we know, as we've already told you, she died, 276 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 3: you know, that day in a fire. And yet we 277 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 3: know that he actually said that he went over and 278 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 3: saw her and that they had sex that day. I'm 279 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 3: thinking he's trying to explain why his DNA is found 280 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 3: inside the house or you know, That's what I'm guessing. 281 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 3: He's trying to explain his presence there that day. And 282 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 3: instead of saying, yes, I went there and I killed her, 283 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 3: he's saying, no, I went there and had sex and 284 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 3: I left. You know which. Bottom line, he was there 285 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 3: that day and she ends up dead. But Joe, what 286 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 3: happens when you take a body such as hers? I 287 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 3: wonder what information you're going to find forensically from the 288 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 3: body of a twenties a pregnant woman who is about 289 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 3: to give birth. Are you going to be able to 290 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 3: get physical information from the baby that has not been born? 291 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 3: And what information are you going to get from this body? 292 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 3: Because we do know there were two autopsies done. 293 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 2: I think that and listen, procedurally, I think that many 294 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 2: people don't understand that when we're dealing with a female 295 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 2: that is pregnant, there will be two autopsies. Okay, because 296 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 2: we actually and it's one of the saddest things that 297 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 2: you can do for me personally. It always was I 298 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 2: can't speak to anybody else. You can put on your 299 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 2: clinical hat and say that it doesn't impact it. 300 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: Not. 301 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 2: I'm here to tell you, my friend, it impacts you. 302 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 2: You to work in the morgue. When you're working, you're 303 00:17:55,880 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 2: doing an examination on a pregnant woman, you actually have 304 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 2: to deliver the baby, you know, in the autopsy room. 305 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 2: And it's not like a regular delivery, and it's it's 306 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 2: something that you're very careful with. But that child's body 307 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 2: is just as important as the mother's body, you know, 308 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 2: regarding regarding this event. And it's not so much that 309 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 2: you're going to see I'll put it through this way. 310 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 2: You know, one of the things that we do with 311 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 2: individuals that are subject to fires and house fires and 312 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 2: you know, closed in spaces, is that we're going to 313 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 2: spend a lot of time looking at the lungs. Well, obviously, 314 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,959 Speaker 2: if you have an unborn child, the lungs have not 315 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 2: yet expanded at that point, so you know that they're 316 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 2: not uptaking oxygen per se, but they're getting their their 317 00:18:55,560 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 2: nutrients from the mother and anything that might be going 318 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 2: on metabolically with the with the mother can in fact 319 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 2: come into influence relative to the child or the unborn 320 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 2: child that she's carrying. And this is this is actually 321 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 2: evidenced with how many times have and I listen, I 322 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 2: know that you've worked with underprivileged people, and you've worked 323 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 2: with people that are severely drug addicted, you know, as 324 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 2: part of what you do, and I couldn't do it. 325 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 2: I don't know how you do it. But many people 326 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 2: that are pregnant and they have an addiction problem, that 327 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 2: addiction will be passed on to the unborn child. I'll 328 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 2: tell you this. One of my dear friends in the 329 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 2: entire world was born addicted and it's a uh, it's 330 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 2: a real uphill struggle. But those are the types of 331 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 2: things you can find from the unborn child. But primarily 332 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 2: in a case like this, you're she's there any number 333 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 2: of reasons why a pregnant woman could potentially suddenly die, 334 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 2: but you you don't. That's not necessarily always going to 335 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 2: be your default position, particularly when you find her in any. 336 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 3: I want to ask something because you know, I have 337 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 3: said that you know she died in the house fire, 338 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 3: and while that might be somewhat accurate, it's not accurate 339 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 3: at all, because that's the way it was reported. I 340 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:29,360 Speaker 3: before we even started, remember, I went to a gofund 341 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 3: me side. I wanted to see you know, how it 342 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,239 Speaker 3: was approached at the time, how it was reported at 343 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,719 Speaker 3: the time, and that is how it was sold. How 344 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,400 Speaker 3: the story was told that this woman who was nine 345 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 3: months pregnant died in a house fire. But Joe, when 346 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:43,719 Speaker 3: they got there, when they got to the house, when 347 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 3: a fireman got to the house, her house was on fire. 348 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 3: We have looked at pictures of the house on fire. 349 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 3: She was not dead. She was unconscious in the kitchen, 350 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 3: I believe, but she was. They said she was unconscious 351 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 3: when they got there, and they were able they being 352 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 3: the expert here, and we've got to talk about the autopsy, 353 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,479 Speaker 3: but they were able to determine exactly what happened to her, 354 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 3: and the fire is not what killed her. How did 355 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 3: we know that, Joe? 356 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 2: We know that day because the examination that was conducted 357 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,679 Speaker 2: at the medical Examiner's office. You know, one of the 358 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 2: things that if you find, if you find a body 359 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 2: that has been contained in an enclosed environment like this 360 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 2: with all of the smoke in the superheated air, that 361 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:32,360 Speaker 2: we've previously talked about. You're going to look for these 362 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,360 Speaker 2: these little bits of evidence along the way that can 363 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 2: be displayed in the body, and they're not finding that. 364 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 2: They're not finding like an uptake of say, carbon monoxide. 365 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 2: And we run a test that's referred to as the 366 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 2: carboxy hemoglobin level, which is when we do a blood draw. 367 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 2: And here's something kind of interesting. When you actually see 368 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 2: the blood of an individual that has been exposed to 369 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 2: carbon monoxide, did you know that their blood is actually 370 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 2: brilliantly cherry pink? And you can visualize that. That doesn't 371 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 2: require any kind of any kind of special testing, but 372 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 2: you do test it, and you do what's called a 373 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 2: carboxy heemoglobin level, and it gives you that level of 374 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 2: carbon monoxide in their system. Now, every single day when 375 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 2: you go by living your life and you're walking up 376 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 2: and down the street, you're going to work, you're going 377 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:34,159 Speaker 2: to school, there's a certain amount of carbon monoxide that 378 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 2: we uptake just in our environment. And that's kind of 379 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 2: a baseline. There are all kinds of things that we 380 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 2: inhale that are not lethal in minimal amounts. You can 381 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 2: uptake carbon monoxide at a very minimal amount but it's 382 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 2: not going to kill you. But if you're in that 383 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 2: environment and that is that product is being given off 384 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 2: and you're inhaling it, say you're like moving around in 385 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 2: that environment and you're really struggling to breed, you're gonna 386 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 2: take these deep gas and it's going into your system. 387 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,479 Speaker 2: I think what they're saying is if she did in 388 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 2: fact have even an agonal respiration, you know where it's 389 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 2: like very minimum, she's down low. I think they found 390 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:24,160 Speaker 2: her on the floor. She's not gonna uptake hardly any 391 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 2: at all at that point in time. She eventually succumbs. 392 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 2: The other thing you're going to look for. And I 393 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 2: kind of hinted at this earlier the gas that the 394 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:39,439 Speaker 2: air is so superheated in this environment, Dave that for 395 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 2: anybody that's giving example, and this doesn't actually even come close. 396 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 2: But I remember when I was a very young man, 397 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 2: I went to I went to Arizona for training in 398 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 2: the army, and I'd never been to Arizona. And I 399 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 2: got there in July, and I remember the July and 400 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 2: he says, well, they always told me, you know, it's 401 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 2: a drag year from the South. It's not going to 402 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 2: bother you. Dude, it bothered me. I loved Arizona. I've 403 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 2: got friends from Arizona, but it ain't where, particularly southern 404 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:15,199 Speaker 2: Arizona is not a place i'd want to hang out 405 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,679 Speaker 2: during the summertime. And when I remember walking out of 406 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 2: the airport and getting on an army bus and took 407 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 2: my first like full breath of air, and it felt 408 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 2: like my lungs were on fire. Well you imagine that 409 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 2: it's because the air was so superheated. You imagine that 410 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 2: only you're inside of a house fire and it's going 411 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:41,159 Speaker 2: to literally scorch those delicate little linings. We all know 412 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 2: what it feels like, you know, to my friends listening 413 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 2: right now, think about how it feels when you have 414 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 2: like a strap throat or something like that, and you 415 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 2: can actually look in the mirror and look in your 416 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 2: throat and you'll see that's really red and inflamed. It's 417 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:59,360 Speaker 2: so painful. Imagine that by a factor of ten, and 418 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 2: that that's how it would feel, you know, trying to 419 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,199 Speaker 2: just uptake oxygen into your body, but there's none there 420 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 2: because the fire, like I said earlier, is living. It's 421 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 2: trying to consume all of the oxygen in the air 422 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 2: and So if your answers don't rest there in a 423 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 2: chemical test, they've got to rest somewhere else. So where 424 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 2: do we look for answers? Well, you know, in this case, Melissa, 425 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 2: when she died, her body bore evidence. Dave and the 426 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 2: forensic pathologist that was involved in this case, trust me, 427 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 2: they've seen house fires before and they're looking for obvious 428 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 2: signs that of what may have led to her death. 429 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 2: And it was pretty glaring. It was pretty glaring when 430 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 2: this autopsy began to proceed. As a matter of fact, 431 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 2: I think there was one quote that from the forensic 432 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 2: pathologists that they had not seen this many particular images 433 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 2: in a case, and that for me, that was really 434 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 2: striking because I've had cases where you've got PETIKII all 435 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 2: over the place. It's not just in the eyes. People 436 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 2: think that it's only in the eyes. It can be 437 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 2: all over and in this case, she. 438 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 3: Was just back after that for a minute, because when 439 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 3: we have talked about PATIKII before, it usually comes in 440 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 3: the context of a discussion of what you're looking for 441 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 3: in somebody who may have been strangled suffocated, And in 442 00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 3: this case, I'm going to do or anything close to it, 443 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 3: but I'm going to assume that you're going to look 444 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 3: at somebody and find out that they've got soot and 445 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 3: stuff in their lungs. There's going to be some manner 446 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 3: of breathing in, right, And if that's not there, then 447 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 3: whatever happened to this person had nothing to do with 448 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 3: the fire. 449 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 2: And yeah, they were unconscious. So would you have that? 450 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 2: Would you have the tea? Yeah? And things like that. 451 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 3: If I died in a fire, Okay, let's just say 452 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 3: that I die from breathing in whatever I I die 453 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,679 Speaker 3: because of the fire, but nothing else. Am I going 454 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 3: to have patikia all over me? 455 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 2: My eyes? 456 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 3: Am I going to look like I was strangled. 457 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 2: In the event that it was an asphyxial death. Yeah, yeah, 458 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 2: you would, and not not all over you. And this 459 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,200 Speaker 2: is very important to understand because there are levels of trauma. 460 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 2: And let me see if I can phrase this accurately. 461 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 2: They're depended upon Okay, here we go. Depended upon the 462 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:03,680 Speaker 2: amount of pressure that is applied to your airway, whether 463 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 2: it be your throat externally with either bare hands or ligature, 464 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 2: or somebody placing something over your face that's going to 465 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 2: inhibit your ability to uptake oxygen, and how much force 466 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:25,679 Speaker 2: is used. Yeah, you could have minimal dependent upon the 467 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 2: amount of force, you could have a tremendous number if 468 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,920 Speaker 2: they're just squeezing and squeezing and squeezing. And here's why, 469 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 2: and it's very very simple. It's not rocket science. As 470 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 2: I always say, we're not going to moon here. Okay, 471 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 2: the more pressure that you apply to, say, for instance, 472 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 2: the neck, if we're talking about a strangulation, like a 473 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 2: manual strangulation, you're not just blocking the vessels in the neck. 474 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 2: And the two that we really think about here are 475 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 2: the carotids that run on either side of what's referred 476 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 2: to as your trachea. As those are being clamped down, 477 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 2: you're not just preventing oxygenated blood to be sent to 478 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 2: your brain, but you're also preventing that return of the 479 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 2: blood coming back from the brain. And what happens, well, 480 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 2: it holds up in these little capillary beds. And capillary 481 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 2: beds are not meant for blood storage, they're meant for 482 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 2: blood flow. And so the more pressure that is exerted there, 483 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 2: you'll have these little vessels that are bursting, and they 484 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 2: burst out into the interstitial tissue. And it doesn't matter 485 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 2: if a perpetrator picks up on this and they see it, 486 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 2: there's no way you can get rid of them. No way. 487 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, if an individual that dies 488 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 2: presents with PETIITII because this is outside the vessels. Now, 489 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 2: if you were to look at an embalmed body that 490 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 2: had PETIKI, but you're not going to go away. 491 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 3: You see it after the fact for a while, I mean. 492 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because it's out into it's 493 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 2: what's called the interstitial tissue, the tissue that surrounds the 494 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 2: vessels the vessels burst. Just think of it this way. Okay, 495 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 2: if you have a water hose in your you know, 496 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 2: in your yard, and you've got the nozzle on the 497 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 2: end of it and it's closed, and you turn it 498 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 2: on full blast. Once that hose burst, okay, you cannot 499 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 2: reclaim that water, say, you know, gather it back up 500 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 2: and put it back into the hose. Once you get 501 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 2: it patched, it's out in the dirt. That that dirt 502 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 2: is going to be sopping wet at that point in time. 503 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 2: It's the same principle sees as I said, it's you know, 504 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 2: we're not doing calculus here, it's it's just that's the 505 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 2: reality of it, and and so when the pathologists began 506 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 2: their exam of Melissa, they found no soot in her lungs. 507 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 2: So I think that the phraseology that I'm using here 508 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 2: is important to think about. Did she die as a 509 00:30:59,040 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 2: result of a fire? 510 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: No? 511 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 2: She This is obviously for the forendsic pathologists, a person 512 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 2: that had died and then the environment around her was 513 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 2: set a blaze, and even the fire Marshal made a 514 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 2: distinction about that. And I find this. I find this 515 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 2: quite interesting, Dave, because they have what I think to 516 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 2: be what's called a splash pattern from a splash pattern. 517 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 3: Okay, wait a minute for just say okay, so now, yeah, 518 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 3: we have PETIKII all over. We have no soot in 519 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 3: her mouth, throat, heading into her lungs. We got none 520 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 3: of that. So you say, okay, there was a fire, 521 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 3: but that's not what was involved in killing her. So 522 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 3: now you start tracking it back and you find out 523 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 3: that the father of her unborn child is also an 524 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 3: EMT and he had been over there earlier in the day, 525 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 3: and he admits that when they're talking to him. Now 526 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 3: over the next couple of days, he goes on about 527 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 3: his merry business people are not they're like he's not 528 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 3: showing any signs of any kind of grief or anything, 529 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 3: and you would think somebody's carrying your child, they might 530 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 3: have some kind of feelings of sadness that you were gone, 531 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 3: regardless of how the relationship was. So those are little 532 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 3: things that people kind of called on of that. So 533 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 3: as they're asking Matthew plot you know what was going 534 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 3: on that you know you were over there that day, 535 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 3: what was going on? And he tells them, well, we 536 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 3: had sex and then I left. So he has already 537 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 3: put himself at the scene of a crime. Is not 538 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 3: a fire that happened and she died. She was dead, 539 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 3: dying before the fire was set. And as they're examining 540 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 3: you mentioned splash pattern, I'm going to assume that this 541 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 3: EMT set the fire. 542 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that it's important also not to 543 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 2: say that anyone else could not have set the fire. 544 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 2: But not only was this guy at emt US also 545 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 2: a firefighter, which a lot of my friends are in 546 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 2: the fire service are EMTs as well, and firefighters. I 547 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 2: got to tell you some favorite people in the world 548 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 2: because they work. They work so hard, and unlike my 549 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:12,959 Speaker 2: friends that are police officers, they don't want to get 550 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 2: their uniforms dirty. Lots of times firefighters anytime I had 551 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 2: like a really bad case, like something that was really 552 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 2: really bad, they'd say, hey, how can we help you. 553 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 2: We've got a new device we want to try out, 554 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 2: or a new not we want to try out to 555 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 2: and they're always willing to help. They have a broad 556 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 2: range of knowledge, and so if you've got someone that 557 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 2: is in fact a firefighter, you know that they're going 558 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 2: to understand things like point of origin because that's one 559 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 2: of the things that you try to discover. Not only 560 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 2: are you fighting fires, you're trying to discover how the 561 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 2: fire initiated. And this knowledge kind of trickles down through 562 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:52,719 Speaker 2: the service. That's what's so odd about this because I 563 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 2: think that if I'm not mistaken, I think that there 564 00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 2: was the investigators actually know that there was what appeared 565 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 2: to be like a splash pattern or a point of 566 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 2: initiation at the scene that was immediately adjacent to an area. 567 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 2: So if you take above the stove, and if you 568 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:20,920 Speaker 2: take if you take okay, just imagine this. If you 569 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,399 Speaker 2: took a bucket of water on a dry, hot day 570 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,760 Speaker 2: and you went out to your driveway on a concrete 571 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 2: surface and you took that bucket of water and you 572 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 2: splashed it out in the immediate you could see that pattern. 573 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,319 Speaker 2: You could see the pattern of the splash itself on 574 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 2: that surface. All right, So we've established that the same 575 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:45,279 Speaker 2: way dave with an accelerant like lighter, fluid or kerosene 576 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 2: or gasoline. When when you take a liquid accelerant like that, 577 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 2: you can spray it on an area or what are 578 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 2: you going to do next? You're going to strike a 579 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 2: match or initiate a lighter and you're going to start 580 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 2: the fire right there, Well, there's two things you look for. 581 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 2: You look for what's referred to as a splash pattern, 582 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,799 Speaker 2: which the fire literally burns. It will actually burn that 583 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 2: pattern into the wall from the splash. And not only that. 584 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 2: One of the ways that I'm fascinated by people that 585 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:21,760 Speaker 2: do arson investigation, it's really the unsung hero in forensic science. 586 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,359 Speaker 2: They don't get a lot of love, but boy, what 587 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 2: they have to do that the job is amazing, absolutely amazing. 588 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 2: They're so brilliant because if you ever walk onto a 589 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 2: fire scene, it's like it's like a jigsaw puzzle and 590 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 2: all of the pieces are black and charred. You have 591 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 2: to have a different mindset to work on these scenes. 592 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,319 Speaker 2: But what they look for for point of origin many 593 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 2: times is the area that is most damaged in that 594 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,360 Speaker 2: structure is generally going to be your point of origin 595 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 2: because that's where the fire will have burned the hottest. 596 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 2: And in this case, that's what they were seeing. They 597 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 2: knew that this thing had to have been initiated. Now 598 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 2: they're gonna you know, you talk about how this is 599 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 2: adjacent to the stove. So one of the things that 600 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,319 Speaker 2: your mind goes to, was this as a result of, say, 601 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 2: some kind of electrical malfunction, all right? Was did the 602 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,319 Speaker 2: fan short out, you know in the stove, you know, 603 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 2: with the fan that's in your your your hood of 604 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 2: your stove. Something behind it did something to initiate this, 605 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 2: And all of these things present differently, But it's amazing 606 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:31,720 Speaker 2: to me that someone that is a firefighter would actually 607 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:32,359 Speaker 2: do this and leave. 608 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 3: That's when I was looking over the whole case. I 609 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 3: was wondering the same thing, except we're not dealing with 610 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,360 Speaker 3: a firefighter hero. We're dealing with a firefighter possible murderer 611 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:47,439 Speaker 3: who possibly murdered his ex girlfriend and have baby whose 612 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 3: night were ready to be born and putting that into play. 613 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 3: Now you're going, okay, let's back up for just a minute, Joe. 614 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 3: Ye know early they suspected Matthew Plote that night, the 615 00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 3: night they put the fire out, and the family comes 616 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,960 Speaker 3: to him and they say, hey, you got to check 617 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 3: out the boyfriend. You got to check him out. And 618 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 3: they did. They sweated him for seven hours. And during 619 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 3: the seven hours they're talking to him, he admits to 620 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,800 Speaker 3: being there. He claims they had sex. He's admitting a 621 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,240 Speaker 3: lot of things, but he doesn't ever say. He doesn't 622 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 3: admit to killing anybody. He doesn't admit to killing the 623 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 3: unborn baby. He doesn't admit to killing Melissa. But one 624 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 3: thing that happened that this caught my attention, Joe. They 625 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,319 Speaker 3: know he was there that day of the fire. They 626 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 3: know she's got no soot in her mouth, in her throat, 627 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:37,320 Speaker 3: They know that right away. They also know they can't 628 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:43,760 Speaker 3: find fingerprints anywhere. The place has been wiped down. Now, 629 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 3: why would a place be wiped down? Why are we 630 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,919 Speaker 3: not finding your fingerprints? You told us you were there. 631 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,439 Speaker 3: That immediately is gonna get you know, ding, ding ding. 632 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:59,560 Speaker 3: The last thing that her sister, Melissa Leimas has a 633 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,439 Speaker 3: sister that she was on the phone with and said, Hey, 634 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,319 Speaker 3: Matt's coming by. I'll call you after he leaves, and 635 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,280 Speaker 3: she never called back. That was really out of character. 636 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 3: And the sister brought that up very early on in 637 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 3: the investigation. So we know he's there, we know that 638 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:14,479 Speaker 3: she was supposed to call back her sister, she never did. 639 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 3: Fire happens and there's no fingerprints inside from the one 640 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:18,480 Speaker 3: guy who admits he was there. 641 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just I'm thinking right here, and I'm thinking 642 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 2: about Melissa's sister. Can you imagine when she got that 643 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:31,759 Speaker 2: phone call, Because you know, she knows, she probably knows 644 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,759 Speaker 2: more than anybody about the dynamics of that relationship, and 645 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,840 Speaker 2: she also knows a key piece of information relative to 646 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 2: his presence in or lack thereof, in her life. And 647 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 2: so you know that's fascinating to consider, and she's going 648 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,399 Speaker 2: to be key to the investigation. But back to the fingerprints. 649 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,479 Speaker 2: It's one thing to burn an area down or set 650 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 2: a place ablaze and you won't find fingerprints, But that 651 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,400 Speaker 2: gives you an idea, idea that there was some level 652 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:06,839 Speaker 2: of containment of of of the fire, that it was 653 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 2: isolated to one location, that location being not too far 654 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,480 Speaker 2: away from which the body was and so yeah, and 655 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 2: so everything else has been wiped down. And look when 656 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:21,360 Speaker 2: you go in and you dust an area for latent prints, 657 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,920 Speaker 2: which are those things that are unseen, and that powder 658 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 2: sticks to that, that those fatty lipids that your that 659 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 2: your fingers, your friction ridges leave behind, you're absent there. 660 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 2: You know, you can imagine the look on the on 661 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 2: the print guy sitting there and saying, I can't find 662 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 2: a print anywhere. You know, there's no prints, and so, 663 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,240 Speaker 2: you know, isn't it interesting how a perpetrator is trying 664 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:47,400 Speaker 2: to leave nothing to chance, but yet by virtue of 665 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,279 Speaker 2: leaving nothing to chance, you kind of give it away. 666 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 2: And this goes back to another premise that you and 667 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 2: I both talked about, David. Sometimes sometimes in this old world, 668 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:02,040 Speaker 2: the absence of evidence is just as important. Shocked. 669 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 3: It shocked me when I read it, because even though 670 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,200 Speaker 3: it's just me and I'm just covering stories and things 671 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 3: like that, I am amazed at how many times this 672 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,400 Speaker 3: type of tidbit comes up, because I'm thinking, there's no 673 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:18,200 Speaker 3: way you know, you admit you're there, then your prince 674 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 3: should there should be something left behind. We've learned that 675 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 3: over time. But Joe, to back up for a minute, 676 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:26,879 Speaker 3: just the condition of the body and the baby when 677 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 3: they get them out of the house and you take 678 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:31,959 Speaker 3: them back to the morgue. I didn't know about having 679 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 3: to the nine months she's nine months, pray and she's 680 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 3: about to give birth, that that baby has to be 681 00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,600 Speaker 3: born in the morgue. And you said there has to 682 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,960 Speaker 3: be an autopsy done on the baby as well. 683 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:50,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's commonly done. And it's very sad because well, 684 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 2: let's look at it this way, Dave, Okay, And I'm 685 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 2: not trying to be callous about it. And this isn't 686 00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 2: really callousness. I don't think it's just stayed in cold 687 00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:04,279 Speaker 2: heart act. You're looking at double homicide here, and that's 688 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 2: important to remember. It's not just Melissa that has died 689 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,840 Speaker 2: at the hands of someone, it's this baby as well, 690 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,320 Speaker 2: and you know, just let that sink in so you 691 00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:22,480 Speaker 2: don't you don't want to move forward with a case 692 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:27,319 Speaker 2: if you charge somebody with double homicide, for instance, and 693 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,560 Speaker 2: you don't do the exam on the I mean, you 694 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,799 Speaker 2: wouldn't do it if it was, say to adults, and 695 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,640 Speaker 2: they were shot dead, you know, some location and you 696 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,759 Speaker 2: find out you suspect who did it, and you arrest them. 697 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,560 Speaker 2: You're going to do an autopsy on both those subjects. Well, 698 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,480 Speaker 2: you're going to do an autopsy on the baby as well. 699 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,879 Speaker 2: And let me just clarify things when when I say 700 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 2: that we deliver the baby and the more it's again, 701 00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,080 Speaker 2: I'd like to emphasize that it's not a it's not 702 00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,920 Speaker 2: like a traditional delivery. It's not even like a c section. 703 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:05,320 Speaker 2: It is a removal of the baby from the mother's womb, 704 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,120 Speaker 2: and we have a particular way that we do that 705 00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:12,759 Speaker 2: in the morgue. So it's not a traditional delivery. But 706 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,600 Speaker 2: we have to take that baby and do an examination 707 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,319 Speaker 2: and there's you know, when you do an exam on 708 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:22,400 Speaker 2: an infant, there's a whole other set of rules that 709 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,160 Speaker 2: kind of apply because there's other things that we're looking 710 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:27,920 Speaker 2: at relative to the baby where you know, we consider 711 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,600 Speaker 2: things primarily having to do with developmental issues. You know 712 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,759 Speaker 2: what state was the baby in and you have to 713 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 2: go back and correlate that with any kind of pre 714 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,399 Speaker 2: neat natal treatment that she had received when you begin 715 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:42,879 Speaker 2: to think about viability, because this is going to come 716 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,080 Speaker 2: up in court because if you're going to charge somebody. 717 00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:48,440 Speaker 2: The attorney is going to say, you're charging my client 718 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 2: with a homicide and we don't even know if the 719 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 2: child was viable. Well, you have to examine that child 720 00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 2: and say, oh, no, no, no, this child was not deceased. 721 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:06,040 Speaker 2: In you, this child was viable, vibrant. The chances this 722 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,880 Speaker 2: child was going to survive the birth and thrive in 723 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 2: life were really high. No, this individual should in this 724 00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:18,719 Speaker 2: case was charged and I'm happy to report, Dave, that 725 00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,000 Speaker 2: this individual has been found guilty. 726 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,919 Speaker 3: Joe, he was convicted. Matthew Plot was convicted a first 727 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:29,640 Speaker 3: degree murder, homicide of an unborn child, arison, battery, and 728 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:31,680 Speaker 3: concealment of a homicide. 729 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:36,200 Speaker 2: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Backs