1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:15,239 Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 3 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 2: is Robert. 4 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:18,639 Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and we are back 5 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 3: with part three in our series on hermit crabs. Now, 6 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:25,159 Speaker 3: if you haven't heard the first couple of parts of 7 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 3: the series, you might want to go back and listen 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 3: to those first. But also if you just want to 9 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 3: start here, that's fine. I don't know if there's any 10 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:34,839 Speaker 3: particular order you need to do these in. In the 11 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 3: previous two episodes, we talked about Rob's recent in person 12 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:43,520 Speaker 3: observation of terrestrial Caribbean hermit crabs in the wild, which 13 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 3: sounds fascinating watching them scuttle about and do their business. 14 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 3: We talked about the way hermit crabs fit into the 15 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 3: crustacean family tree, how they differ from so called true 16 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 3: crabs or the brachyura, how they evolve to depend on 17 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 3: exogynous mobile shelter in the form of things like gastropod shells. 18 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 3: We talked about how hermit crabs forage and compete for 19 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 3: shells within a kind of economy, and how this leads 20 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 3: to an interesting phenomenon called vacancy chains, with parallels in 21 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 3: the markets for some certain human resources such as housing 22 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 3: and certain kinds of jobs. We discussed some surprising evolutionary relationships, 23 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 3: such as the widely supported idea that free living king crabs, yes, 24 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 3: even the kind you eat, probably evolved from a hermit 25 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 3: crab ancestor so the lineage. If this hypothesis is right, 26 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 3: the lineage evolved once from free living crabs to the 27 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 3: hermit crab form, where it developed a soft wormy abdomen 28 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 3: and evolved to depend entirely on these externally sourced shells. 29 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 3: And then some branches of that family evolved once again 30 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 3: to abandon the external shells and become fully hardened all 31 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 3: over become these free living crab like organisms. Again, king 32 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 3: crabs are also an amura. They're also not so called 33 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 3: true crabs. And also we discussed some fascinating alternatives to 34 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 3: the common relationship between hermit crabs and snail shells. The 35 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 3: majority of crabs do hermit crabs do prefer to live 36 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 3: within the shells of gastropods, snails, welks, periwinkles, those kind 37 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 3: of things, But there are also hermits that take up 38 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 3: residents within living sea anemonies or solitary corals, and so 39 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 3: we talked about the reasons those relationships could be mutually beneficial. 40 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,399 Speaker 2: That's right, And as we discussed too, I mean, there's 41 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 2: still so much research going on concerning hermit crabs and 42 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 2: the discovery of new particularly aquatic hermit crab species, and 43 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 2: just fully understanding terrestrial hermit crabs as well. So you know, 44 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 2: we're not gonna we're not going to be able to 45 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 2: touch on everything in this trilogy, but we are going 46 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 2: to finish the trilogy here. We're going to finish our 47 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 2: story of hermit crabs, and we're going to get into 48 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,679 Speaker 2: a few remaining and perhaps surprising areas of discussion. 49 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 3: So the first thing I wanted to talk about today 50 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 3: was that I was quite interested to find some meditations 51 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 3: on hermit crabs in the writings of the late Stephen J. Gould, 52 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 3: the American paleontologist and popular science communicator. So, first of all, 53 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 3: I did find that Gould wrote a good bit on 54 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 3: the hermits to King's hypothesis that we talked about in 55 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 3: the previous episode, where king crabs are thought to have 56 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 3: probably evolved from hermit crab ancestors. 57 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 2: Did he have a particular take or was he just 58 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 2: generally reporting on the back and forth among evolutionary scientists. 59 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 3: Well, I saw that he wrote on this subject. I 60 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 3: did not read everything he did write on this subject, 61 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 3: so I don't know where he landed in the end. 62 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 2: I'm just going to assume he probably landed where everyone 63 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 2: else seems to be and the land and that is well. 64 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 2: Most people agree that this hypothesis has probably corrected. Is 65 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 2: it seems to be the scientific consensus. 66 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 3: That seems likely to me. But beyond that, I found 67 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 3: a really interesting anecdote about hermit crabs in an essay 68 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 3: called Nature's Odd Couples from Gould's nineteen eighty collection The 69 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 3: Panda's Thumb. This essay was great because the core observations 70 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 3: from Gould are fascinating, but it also sent me off 71 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 3: on a pretty good tangent that I hope you'll enjoy 72 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 3: about snails with what looked like bloody teeth. So Gould 73 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 3: opens this essay with a quote. He opens by talking 74 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:34,039 Speaker 3: about a quote from Alexander Pope's poem an Essay on 75 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 3: Man and a rhyming couplet. It goes like this, from 76 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 3: Nature's chain, whatever link you strike tenth or ten thousandth 77 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 3: breaks the chain alike, and he kind of starts by 78 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 3: appreciating some ways in which this quote is both is 79 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 3: and is not true. So in the sense in which 80 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 3: the spirit of the quote is true, organisms throughout an 81 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 3: ecosystem are all connected by various types of relationships. There 82 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 3: are energy relationships, you know, some organisms eat one another 83 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 3: or affect how one another can acquire energy. There are 84 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 3: information relationships. Sometimes organisms learn about something from another one 85 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 3: and so forth, and these relationships can be both direct 86 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,280 Speaker 3: and indirect, so things that happen to one organism can 87 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 3: ripple through the whole ecosystem in surprising ways. On the 88 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 3: other hand, it's obviously not the case that the chain 89 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 3: of nature to use Pope's image here, is completely destroyed 90 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 3: anytime one link is broken gouled rights quote. Ecosystems are 91 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 3: not so precariously balanced that the extirpation of one species 92 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 3: must act like the first domino in that colorful metaphor 93 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,479 Speaker 3: of the Cold War. Indeed, it could not be, for 94 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 3: extinction is the common fate of all species, and they 95 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 3: cannot all take their ecosystems with them. Species often have 96 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 3: as much dependence on each other as longfellows ships that 97 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 3: pass in the night. And to add to this, I 98 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 3: would just say it's a very safe estimate that more 99 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 3: than ninety nine percent of species that have ever existed 100 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 3: are already extinct. The American Museum of Natural History uses 101 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 3: the estimate that it's more than ninety nine point nine 102 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 3: percent of all species that ever existed. So obviously it's 103 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 3: just not the case that a single link is broken 104 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 3: and the entire chain is necessarily shattered, or life couldn't 105 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 3: exist today. Ecosystems in many cases survive and adapt that 106 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 3: they have to change. They adapt to changes in their makeup, 107 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 3: but to come back. On the other hand, it's absolutely 108 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 3: true that the extinction of one organism in an ecosystem 109 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:48,840 Speaker 3: can be absolutely devastating and it can lead to secondary extinctions. 110 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 3: And from a human perspective, a major danger here is 111 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 3: the lack of predictability in these kinds of relationships, Like 112 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 3: sometimes we can predict what these relationships and domino effects 113 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 3: would be, but sometimes we can't. We don't always know 114 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 3: what would happen to a whole environment and ecosystem when 115 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 3: one species is taken out of the equation. 116 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 2: That's right, and we've talked about that before in terms 117 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 2: of situations where there is very much an organism we 118 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 2: would like to remove from the ecosystem or from you know, 119 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 2: parts of the ecosystem, such as say a mosquito or 120 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 2: some other paths, something that is interfering with human aims 121 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 2: and industries. But the question always remains, like, well, what 122 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 2: else is that organism doing, What eats it, what is 123 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 2: kept in check by it, and so forth, and so 124 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 2: there are all these spiraling concerns, and you know, it's 125 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 2: kind of like that. It reminds me that old thing 126 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 2: I think from some movie or another about how if 127 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 2: you're going to rob a bank or something, you know, 128 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 2: they're like so many ways you can mess up, and 129 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 2: if you can think of like three of them, you're 130 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 2: a genius. It seems like a similar situation anytime humans 131 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 2: want to mess with the ecosystem with the introduction or 132 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 2: removal of certain species. There are the things that you 133 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 2: know can occur or likely will occur if you change it, 134 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 2: But then there are all these additional ripple effects that 135 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 2: you cannot necessarily predict. 136 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 3: Right, So it's not the case that breaking one link 137 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 3: in the chain necessarily shatters the whole chain, but it 138 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 3: does change the chain, and you might not like the 139 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 3: way it changes. Yeah, so we don't always know what's 140 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 3: going to happen when one species is taken out of 141 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 3: the equation, and in fact we can assume the organisms 142 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 3: in question don't know either. And what's more than that, 143 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 3: the algorithm of evolution itself, in the metaphorical sense that 144 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 3: it can know anything, cannot be said to know in 145 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 3: advance what will result from extinctions, which is why so 146 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 3: many organisms evolve sort of dangerous precarious relationships. In many cases, 147 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 3: organisms evolve unbreakable dependencies on another specific organism. For example, 148 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 3: a predator that is specialized to eat only one type 149 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 3: of prey. If that prey organism disappears, the predator is doomed. 150 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 3: Or a plant that relies on a specific animal to 151 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 3: help it pollinate and reproduce. One common example cited here 152 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 3: are yucca plants and yucca moths, which both rely on 153 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 3: one another in a system known as obligate mutualism. You know, 154 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,439 Speaker 3: yucca plants have to be pollinated by yuka moths, and 155 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,319 Speaker 3: yuka moth larvae grow in the yucca plants and grow 156 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 3: by eating some but not all, of the yucca seeds. 157 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 3: And though with the yucca plant the yucca moth the 158 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 3: relationship goes both ways, some of these relationships don't go 159 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 3: both ways. Sometimes they're only one way. Again, the predator 160 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 3: that can only eat one species for food. So while 161 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 3: these highly dependent relationships can be helpful specializations at a 162 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 3: specific time in a specific environment, they're good for helping 163 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 3: you survive. Now, they're sort of analogous to like putting 164 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 3: all of your life savings in a single stock. You know, 165 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 3: like if the company's doing well, that's great for but 166 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 3: if it goes bankrupt, you lose everything. And sometimes evolution 167 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:09,079 Speaker 3: selects four creatures that do not have diverse survival strategies. 168 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 3: They're all in on a single ecological partner. And this 169 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 3: brings us back to Gould's essay where he talks about 170 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 3: a couple of examples where we see what happens to 171 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 3: a pair of species that either depend on each other 172 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 3: or one depends on the other in this way, the 173 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 3: odd couples of the essays title what happens to them 174 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 3: after a sudden disruption, And one of the examples he 175 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 3: talks about is a hermit crab. So Gould recounts some 176 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:38,839 Speaker 3: of his days as a graduate student when he was 177 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 3: writing his PhD dissertation on the land snails of Bermuda. 178 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 3: So he was in Bermuda, and he says while he 179 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 3: was exploring the shores and the beaches there, he would 180 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 3: quite often come across hermit crabs, but not just any 181 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 3: hermit crabs, large hermit crabs crammed into a shell that 182 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 3: was way too small for them. He would talk about, 183 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 3: like their big claw protruding out of the shell. And 184 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 3: he says that these tiny shells that they were trying 185 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 3: to fit into were shells of the narratid snail, which 186 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 3: he points out includes what he calls quote the familiar 187 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 3: bleeding tooth that was not familiar to me. I had 188 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 3: no idea what he's talking about with the bleeding tooth there. 189 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 3: I had to look that up, and so I'll come 190 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 3: back to that in a minute. 191 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 2: I can't wait. 192 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 3: But on the general subject of the narratid snails, this 193 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 3: is a fairly lengthy digression, but I had to look 194 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 3: up this animal because they came up a couple of times. 195 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 3: We talked about narratids in the first episode of this series, 196 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 3: and I didn't really know anything about them. So I 197 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 3: looked him up and I found some interesting backstory. Narratids 198 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 3: or Narrites are named after a minor sea god from 199 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 3: Greek mythology who was called Narratees, and it seems that 200 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 3: the main written source on the Narratis myths is the 201 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 3: second to third century Roman author or Alien, in his 202 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 3: book on the Nature of Animals. I think this specific 203 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 3: text came up in a series we did not too 204 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 3: long ago on beavers, because Alien is the source of 205 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 3: the ancient story about how male beavers would bite off 206 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 3: their own testicles and offer them up to hunters to 207 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 3: make the hunter stop chasing them. I believe we judge 208 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 3: this story not true, but Alien has a lot of 209 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 3: interesting animal facts of that kind. But he also has 210 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 3: some backstory on the narrated sea snails. So I'm going 211 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 3: to alternately quote from and summarize Alien's text here. This 212 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:41,079 Speaker 3: is from the af Scholfield translation of Aliens on the 213 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 3: Nature of Animals. He writes, quote, there is in the 214 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 3: sea a shellfish with a spiral shell, small in size 215 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 3: but of surpassing beauty. And it is born where the 216 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 3: water is at its purest, and upon rocks beneath the sea, 217 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:59,239 Speaker 3: and on what are called sunken reefs. Its name is Narrites. 218 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 3: Then this was funny. He goes on to make some 219 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 3: excuses for why it is okay that he's about to 220 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 3: tell a couple of stories in the middle of this 221 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 3: very serious book. He says, it is going to sweeten 222 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 3: the work. 223 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 2: So okay, Yeah, like a little bit of a little 224 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 2: bit of lead sprinkled into your. 225 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 3: Wine, right exactly, yeah, the lead sugar. So anyway, there 226 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 3: are two stories about how this animal came to exist, 227 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 3: and in both cases the stories traced back to an 228 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 3: extremely handsome, hyper hunk deity named Nerides, who is the 229 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 3: son of the sea god Nereus and of the sea 230 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 3: goddess Doris, the daughter of Okeanos. So in the first 231 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 3: story we learned that Nerides was so overwhelmingly handsome that 232 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 3: he became the favorite of the goddess Aphrodite, and she 233 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 3: fell in love with him. And Ilian writes quote, and 234 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,079 Speaker 3: when the faded time arrived, at which at the bidding 235 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 3: of the father of the gods, Aphrodite also had to 236 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 3: be enrolled among the Olympians, I have heard that she 237 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 3: ascended and wished to bring her companion and playfellow be Nardies, 238 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 3: but the story goes that he refused, preferring life with 239 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 3: his sisters and parents to Olympus, and then he was 240 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 3: permitted to grow wings. This I imagine was a gift 241 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 3: from Aphrodite. But even this favor he counted as nothing, 242 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 3: and so the daughter of Zeus was moved to Anger 243 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 3: and transformed his shape into this shell, and of her 244 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 3: own accord chose in his place for her attendant and servant, Aros, 245 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 3: who was also young and beautiful, and to him she 246 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 3: gave the wings of Nardes. 247 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 2: Very spiteful, like, very much like, much like her father. 248 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 3: That's true. So Narides liked his home in the sea. 249 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 3: He was not ready to move in with Aphrodite's family 250 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 3: on the mountain. So you know, even though she gave 251 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 3: him wings and everything, he didn't want to budge. So 252 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 3: she transformed him into a sea sname out of revenge. 253 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 3: And it's interesting it says specifically that he was transformed 254 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 3: into the shell. I assume that means the whole animal, 255 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 3: including the snail. It would be funny if it just 256 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 3: transformed him into the shell and a snail had to 257 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 3: live in him. 258 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 2: But that would very much fit with a lot of 259 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 2: what we've been talking about with Hermingers. 260 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 3: I guess that's true, and so this story it kind 261 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 3: of matches the general form of these Greco Roman metamorphosis stories. 262 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 3: You know, somebody offends a god in some way and 263 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 3: they're transformed into something else. But I was wondering, like 264 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 3: why a snail in particular. I'm not sure if I'm 265 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 3: missing something about this story, but I feel like Alien's 266 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 3: next story has a little bit more of a hint 267 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 3: about that element, like why he would be transformed into 268 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 3: a snail. So the next story starts the same Nerides 269 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 3: was a young, extremely handsome see god, but this time, 270 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 3: instead of becoming the favorite of Aphrodite, he becomes the 271 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 3: favorite of Poseidon, and he becomes Poseidon's cherioti. Here, so 272 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 3: Elian writes quote, when Poseidon drove his chariot over the waves, 273 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 3: all other great fishes, as well as dolphins and tritons too, 274 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 3: sprang up from their deep haunts and gamboled and danced 275 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 3: around the chariot, only to be left utterly and far 276 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 3: behind by the speed of his horses. Only the boy 277 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 3: favorite was his escort close at hand, and before them 278 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 3: the waves sank to rest, and the sea parted out 279 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 3: of reverence to Poseidon, for the god willed that his 280 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 3: beautiful favorite should not only be highly esteemed for other reasons, 281 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 3: but should also be pre eminent at swimming. But the 282 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 3: story goes from here that Helios, the sun god, was 283 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 3: jealous of the speed of Nerodes and transformed him into 284 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 3: the snail with the spiral shell. And Elian says, commenting 285 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 3: on the story here, that he doesn't know why Helios 286 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 3: was angry at Meridies, but guesses that either Poseidon and 287 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 3: Helios are enemies, or perhaps that Helios was jealous that 288 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 3: the handsome guy was down in the sea with Poseidon 289 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 3: instead of flying among the stars with him. 290 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, really standard god drama right here. 291 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 3: But exactly. But in this version, at least Narrities is 292 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 3: known for being fast, right, so he's fast, and then 293 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 3: he's transformed into a snail. Something seems more fittingly ironic 294 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 3: about that punishment. 295 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 2: Oh yes, yes, you're right. 296 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 3: I remember Aristotle actually mentions Narrities when he's talking about 297 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 3: the shells that hermit crabs occupy. But anyway, these snails today, 298 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,120 Speaker 3: they are a family of gastropods that are found in 299 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 3: all types of water. They're found in freshwater, brackish water, 300 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 3: and salt water. Their diet most of the time consists 301 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 3: of algae that they eat off of rock surfaces and 302 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 3: the waters and crawl around on a rock sort of 303 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 3: scraping up algae and eating it. And they tend to 304 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 3: be pretty small. They're sort of considered small to medium snails, 305 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 3: so it is quite pitiable to imagine, as Gould describes, 306 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 3: a population of hermit crabs, where even fairly large individuals 307 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 3: are trying desperately to cram into these tiny shells. Now, 308 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 3: the one thing I said it was going to come 309 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 3: back to was that neart that Gould mentions by name 310 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 3: in his essay, the so called bleeding tooth. He doesn't 311 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 3: say anything else about it. So I got curious about 312 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:34,959 Speaker 3: this as well, and I found a good photo with 313 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 3: some interpretive text on the website for the Bailey Matthews 314 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:43,439 Speaker 3: National Shell Museum in Florida, USA. Rob I attached the 315 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 3: pictures for you to look at here. And first of all, 316 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 3: I gotta give credit to whoever named this, because they're 317 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 3: right on the money. It does look like a pair 318 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 3: of bloody teeth. Absolutely disgusting. 319 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 2: This is easily the most disgusting shell I've ever seen. 320 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 2: Usually I'm a big shell fan. Yeah, no matter what 321 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 2: kind of creature inside it, Like, show me the shell 322 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 2: and yeah, it's it's generally pretty stunning or even a 323 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 2: very plain shell. It's pleasant to behold. This. This is gross. 324 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 2: This looks like like like misshapen teeth emerging from inflamed 325 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:15,959 Speaker 2: and recessed gums. 326 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 3: It's what like the dentist would scare the children with 327 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 3: on The Simpsons. 328 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you'll see brochures with images like this your 329 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 2: local dentist office. Makes me kind of want to make 330 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 2: a fake brochure with images of the shell and just 331 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 2: sort of slip them in among the other brochures next 332 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:34,919 Speaker 2: time I go. 333 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 3: It makes me want to leave this session and go 334 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 3: like brush and floss right now. 335 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, we can take five dental health. 336 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,360 Speaker 3: Anyway, So yeah, you can look these up. The bleeding 337 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 3: tooth near right. Anyway, This is on the inside of 338 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 3: the shell orifice. You can imagine it's kind of a 339 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 3: spiral and it's got the opening. So if you're looking 340 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 3: at the opening, the side of the aperture that is 341 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 3: closest to the central column or axis of the shell, 342 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 3: that's where the bloody looking teeth are and the museum 343 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:14,479 Speaker 3: page says that this is the species Narrata pelloronta and 344 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 3: it's a snail commonly found on shores throughout the Caribbean 345 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 3: and Florida. It reaches a maximum of about two inches 346 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 3: or about fifty millimeters in size. And in an interesting 347 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 3: parallel to the shell remodeling we saw in some land 348 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 3: dwelling hermit crabs, the bleeding tooth snail will sometimes dissolve 349 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 3: the interior surfaces of its own shell to give itself 350 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 3: more space inside and also to make room for a 351 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 3: kind of a water tank reserve, to make room to 352 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 3: retain reserves of water inside the shell, which is apparently 353 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,639 Speaker 3: useful for the snail during low tide. 354 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, this is essential to what we were talking 355 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 2: about in the first episode here on hermit crabs, about 356 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 2: the chemical and physical augmentation of the shells that hermit 357 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 2: crabs use. And so most of the shells that hermit 358 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 2: crabs are competing for have been augmented, have been remodeled. 359 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's interesting that I think we've uncovered at 360 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 3: least two different ways now, sort of initially hidden ways 361 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 3: that you might not know about just by looking at 362 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 3: them that some hermit crabs have evolved the same adaptations 363 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:27,159 Speaker 3: to shell life as the snails that originally made the 364 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 3: shells they inhabit. So the first example we talked about 365 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 3: was hermit crabs evolving asymmetrically sized claws, so they can 366 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 3: use one claw as an operculum, which means an aperture 367 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 3: covering a door to close a hole, and they use 368 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 3: that larger claw to close the whole of the shell 369 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 3: when they retreat inside. And the parallel with the snails 370 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,880 Speaker 3: is that many snails have the same adaptation. It's part 371 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 3: of their bodies. They often have a hard plate called 372 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:00,119 Speaker 3: an operculum that closes over the shell aperture when the 373 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 3: snail goes inside to hide. So like the hermit crabs 374 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 3: evolutionarily recreated that function with their claws. And now we 375 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,959 Speaker 3: see examples of both snails and later hermit crabs that 376 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 3: inhabit the same types of snail shells, taking a calcified 377 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 3: shell of a fixed size and then dissolving some of 378 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 3: the interior surfaces of that shell to make more room 379 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 3: or make it better suit their needs. Yeah, it's amazing, 380 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,679 Speaker 3: But anyway, so after this whole Narratid digression coming back 381 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 3: to Gould and his essay, So he says that he 382 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 3: saw all these hermit crabs in Bermuda trying to survive 383 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 3: by cramming their big old bodies into the shells of 384 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:42,159 Speaker 3: narrotied snails which were way too small for them. But 385 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,399 Speaker 3: then he says, one day he came across one of 386 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 3: these larger hermit crabs with a better fitting shell, a 387 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 3: much bigger shell. And this was not from a narrated snail, 388 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,719 Speaker 3: but in this case from a welk. It was a 389 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 3: species called Sitarium pica, commonly known as the West Indian 390 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 3: top shell, and this is a larger variety of sea 391 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 3: snail which is eating his food in many places throughout 392 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 3: the Caribbean. But when Gould went in for a better look, 393 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,679 Speaker 3: he realized that the sitarium shell occupied by this hermit 394 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 3: crab was no ordinary gastropod shell. It was a fossil. Also, yeah, 395 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 3: a living crab inside a fossil shell. So Gould writes 396 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,880 Speaker 3: that it seemed the fossil had probably been dislodged by 397 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 3: the tide from an ancient sand dune where the original 398 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 3: shell was deposited. Roughly one hundred and twenty thousand years ago, 399 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 3: probably deposited there by an ancestral hermit crab. So hermit 400 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,679 Speaker 3: crab takes the shell out of the water up to 401 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 3: this area, it gets buried in the sand, it gets fossilized, 402 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 3: and then one hundred and twenty thousand years later the 403 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 3: fossil comes out and a hermit crab claims it. 404 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 2: That is amazing. I mean, you would hope that he 405 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 2: would get those specially antique car tags for that shell, right. 406 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,199 Speaker 3: So Gould continued to study the hermit crabs in the 407 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 3: following months, and he saw that most of them were 408 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,159 Speaker 3: confined to these cramped narrative shells, but the few lucky 409 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 3: animals to possess a welk shell always turned out to 410 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 3: be living in a fossil. So Gould did some library 411 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 3: research and he discovered that he wasn't the first person 412 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 3: actually to make this observation. He had been beaten to 413 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 3: it by the Yale taxonomist Addison E. Verel in the 414 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 3: year nineteen oh seven. So what on earth was going 415 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 3: on here? Well, Gould found that VERYL had researched the 416 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,360 Speaker 3: same issue, and VERYL had gone back through the history 417 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 3: of Bermuda to try to find references to these welks 418 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 3: to see if anybody recorded ever seeing them alive, And 419 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 3: it turns out that some of the earliest written records 420 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 3: of the island actually do mention the welks. So here 421 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 3: to read from Gould quote Captain John's myth, for example, 422 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 3: recorded the fate of one crew member during the Great 423 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 3: Famine of sixteen fourteen to sixteen fifteen. Quote one amongst 424 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 3: the rest hid himself in the woods and lived only 425 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:19,919 Speaker 3: on wilks and land crabs, fat and lusty many months? 426 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 3: Is that fat and lusty? Is that describing that the 427 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 3: whelks and the land crabs or just the land crabs 428 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:28,640 Speaker 3: or the guy who was eating them. 429 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 2: I think this is the guy eating them. I just 430 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 2: imagine I'm just laying about fat and lusty, just stuffed 431 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 2: with these. 432 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 3: Creatures snail and crab for many months. 433 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 2: Uh yeah, you wreck. 434 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 3: That's so bad. Gold goes on to say, quote another 435 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 3: crew member stated that they made cement for the seams 436 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 3: of their vessels by mixing lime from burned wlk shells 437 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 3: with turtle oil. Okay, so some of the earliest references 438 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 3: to these animals are people eating them and grinding them up. 439 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:08,640 Speaker 3: And burning the shells to make cement. And then also 440 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 3: the last evidence that veryl could find of living Satarium 441 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 3: whelks in Bermuda was quote from kitchen middens of British 442 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 3: soldiers stationed on Bermuda during the War of eighteen twelve. 443 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 3: So yum military rations including a lot of sea snail here. 444 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 2: All right, we can definitely see where all this is going. 445 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, because apparently no record of them turned up in 446 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 3: the many years since then. It appears that while these 447 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:40,120 Speaker 3: sea snails the welks still exist elsewhere, they were locally 448 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 3: extinct in Bermuda. So Gould observes another one of these scenarios, 449 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 3: kind of like the post apocalyptic movie we talked about 450 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 3: in the first episode, where in that case it was 451 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 3: the land hermit crabs fighting over a scarce pool of 452 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 3: these highly desirable, already remodeled shells because they want the 453 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 3: remodeled ones so much more than an unremodeled one, you know, 454 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 3: fighting over those, rather than spending a lot of time 455 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 3: actually remodeling new shells, which I think you said was 456 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 3: mainly the work of much younger crabs. 457 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, that's my understanding. So yeah, in this case 458 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 2: they would be in a position to where the desired 459 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 2: shells are no longer around or around in such short 460 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 2: supply due to human interference, that they have but one option, right. 461 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,199 Speaker 3: Right, So they the shells they really want, or at 462 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 3: least once they get larger, the shells they really want 463 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 3: are an extremely scarce resource. There are maybe some shells 464 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 3: still kicking around within the hermit crab economy, though Gold says, 465 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 3: you know, he never came across those, but he says 466 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 3: that they're still recycling shells of the previous centuries from 467 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,199 Speaker 3: before these animals were wiped out. And these shells, you know, 468 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 3: they're strong, but they don't last forever. They get battered 469 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 3: around by the waves, they get knocked on rocks, they 470 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 3: get damaged over time, happens to them. So that supply 471 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 3: is going down, and the only options they have other 472 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 3: than that, which apparently those are already very rare, are 473 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 3: these these quote new shells which are actually fossil shells 474 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 3: coming down from the fossil dunes like they come out 475 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 3: of the earth sometimes, or these tiny narrative shells which 476 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 3: are too small for them. So yeah, it's a kind 477 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 3: of it's a kind of sad situation there and he 478 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 3: actually does make exactly the comparison that we made in 479 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 3: the previous episode to kind of like a like a 480 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 3: post apocalyptic Mad Max scenario where it's just this dwindling 481 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 3: supply of original resources being fought over, and it probably 482 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 3: means that the you know, the hermit crabs in this 483 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 3: specific location do not have a bright future ahead. This 484 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 3: essay is from I don't know, probably the late seventies 485 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 3: or around nineteen eighty. I don't know exactly what their 486 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 3: their status is now. 487 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, because you know, imagine and the fossilized shells were heavier, 488 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 2: you know they were at any rate, they would not 489 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 2: be ideal, but they are close enough and they're they're 490 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 2: all that the crabs can upgrade to in this case. 491 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 2: So that's that's fascinating. It's also one can't help but 492 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 2: sort of put a fantastic spin on it, and imagine 493 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 2: the hermit crabs gathering and they they're like, the humans 494 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 2: have have destroyed our prize shells. We have no choice 495 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 2: but to retrieve the fossil shells that of course may 496 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 2: resonate with ourcane powers. Well, that's fascinating. I had I 497 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 2: had no idea that we had we had hermit crabs 498 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 2: trooping about in fossilized shells. That's amazing. 499 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 3: Oh and by the way, if you get a chance 500 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 3: to read the Gould essay, the thing about hermit crabs 501 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 3: is only the first half of it. The second half 502 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 3: is actually an interesting sort of meta story about science 503 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 3: because the second half is about another relationship, one that 504 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 3: is alleged to have existed between the dodo and a 505 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 3: plant that had an obligate relationshi with the dodo, and 506 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 3: how that allegedly would have affected the plant when the 507 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 3: dodo was driven to extinction by human activity. But that 508 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 3: story actually has a PostScript in the essay because it's 509 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 3: then later research came along to challenge the suggestion that 510 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 3: it was the extinction of the dodo that affected the 511 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 3: plant in the story. So overall it's an interesting essay. 512 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 3: You want to, I guess, find the version with the 513 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 3: PostScript that hashes out all of the bait and controversy 514 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 3: about that second story. 515 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 2: All right, for the last phase of this episode, I 516 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 2: want to dive a little bit more into mythology concerning 517 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 2: Hermi krab. So we've discussed crabs in the show before, obviously, 518 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 2: and we've touched on the times surprising lack of supernatural 519 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 2: and divine crabs in global traditions. We touched on a 520 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 2: few examples, the more notable examples in our twenty twenty 521 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 2: one episode on crabs eating Weird Stuff. I can't remember 522 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 2: what title we went with on that that it might 523 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 2: be the actual title, but we talked about the various 524 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 2: things that crabs eat and the curious ways that they 525 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 2: eat the stuff. You know, they basically like take it apart. 526 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 2: It's like reverse three D printing with their tiny feelers 527 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 2: and mouth parts. But in that for instance, we also 528 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 2: mentioned another example that's not really an example of a 529 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 2: mythology about a lobster, but the invocation of mythology and 530 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 2: the naming of in this case, the squat lobster Kiwa hirsuta. 531 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 2: This is actually a species that I mentioned briefly in 532 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,239 Speaker 2: one of the previous episodes, and it's named after a 533 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 2: Maori see god. So again not a direct connection to mythology, 534 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 2: but like an invocation of mythology. But I was wondering 535 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 2: once more about all this. I was like, Okay, are 536 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 2: there any myths or folk tales involving the hermit crab? 537 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 2: And once more not a lot of examples came up, 538 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 2: and you can, you know, you can probably tease that 539 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 2: apart different ways, is that hermit crabs are just ubiquitous 540 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 2: in certain areas and therefore not deserving of such treatment, 541 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 2: or in other areas they're just not known and therefore 542 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 2: they're not invoked. Or you know, there's plenty of room 543 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 2: too for things to just become lost. Not everything that 544 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 2: that indigenous peoples and ancient people's thought and believe have 545 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 2: been passed down to us. But I did find some 546 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 2: interesting thoughts about how hermit crabs maybe just maybe fit 547 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 2: into the Mayan pantheon. 548 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 3: Oh interesting. 549 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 2: So of note is a particular god depicted in the 550 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 2: Mayan codeses, those folding books written by the pre Columbian 551 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 2: Maya civilization in Mayan hieroglyphic script that survived colonial destruction, 552 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 2: and this particular god is often cataloged as God In. 553 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 2: That is not what worshippers have said God would have 554 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:04,959 Speaker 2: called this God, but historians and researchers would classify them 555 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 2: as such. So God In but also known under the 556 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 2: names Bakab as well as sometimes the name Pallutan. Now, 557 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 2: according to the article Maya Creator Gods by Ka Bassi, 558 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 2: God In, and the Mayan creator God It's Zamna, which 559 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 2: is also known as God D in this classification system, 560 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 2: these may be different incarnations of the same God. Furthermore, 561 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 2: it seems that there were four different incarnations of God 562 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 2: in one for each cardinal direction, and these are often 563 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 2: referred to as not just the Kab but the Bacabs, 564 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 2: but also they are all the Bakab. Essentially, this is 565 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 2: like a fourfold God, and so this particular God is 566 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 2: associated with four directions, four colors, four cosmic pillars, but 567 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 2: also with the Earth's interior and with its water reserves. Now, 568 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 2: as Bassie points out, there are various visual depictions of Bacab, 569 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:11,720 Speaker 2: often as a kind of like human with almond shaped eyes, 570 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 2: sometimes with a water lily headdress, other times a net 571 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:20,919 Speaker 2: bag headdress. But other times this god is depicted as 572 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 2: wearing or inhabiting a turtle shell. Sometimes they take on 573 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 2: avian features. They are also sometimes presented as an old 574 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 2: man or perhaps an old possum. They also are sometimes 575 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 2: depicted as quote wearing a spiral shell or emerging from it. Now, 576 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 2: Joe I did not include images of this for you 577 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:46,240 Speaker 2: here in our outlined because These are very hieroglyphic in nature, 578 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,760 Speaker 2: and they don't necessarily read easily to the untrained eye. 579 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:55,879 Speaker 2: But the Bessie does include various examples of what they're 580 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 2: talking about here. Now in this paper, the researchers has 581 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 2: not mentioned crab or hermit crabs at all. But I 582 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 2: did run across some musings by doctor Nicholas Helmuth on 583 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 2: a website that is mayathno zoology dot org. This website 584 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 2: is a project of the biodiversity educational organization fl aar 585 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 2: meso America. He's an expert in Mayan iconography based out 586 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:27,839 Speaker 2: of Guatemala. He discusses that there are various representations of 587 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 2: God in slash Pahutan slash bacabre. There's the turtle shell 588 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 2: emergent variant, and then there's this version where the God 589 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 2: is within a shell. Sometimes it's described as a spiral 590 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,840 Speaker 2: snail shell, other times it's described as a conk shell. 591 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 2: A conk will remind you is a variety of C. Snaiale, 592 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,319 Speaker 2: known for its shell as well as sometimes for its meat. 593 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 2: It's often used in a lot of you'll find it 594 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,399 Speaker 2: in like chowders or stews, sometimes fried up as well, 595 00:35:57,920 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 2: so The author here points out that while the shell 596 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 2: is often glossed over by researchers, you know, people will 597 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 2: say it's it's a shell, you know, maybe a snail, 598 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 2: maybe a conkan, We don't know. But but he points 599 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:12,399 Speaker 2: out that okay, it would be it would be nice 600 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:14,319 Speaker 2: to know, it would be it would be whove our 601 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 2: understanding of mind culture to specify snailshell or conk shell, 602 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 2: both of which would have been known to the Mayans. 603 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,840 Speaker 2: He also stresses that certainly the Mayans and the Aztecs alike, 604 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:29,919 Speaker 2: we're capable, you know, very much of creating imagined combinations 605 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,280 Speaker 2: of beings. So it's it's not one of those situations 606 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 2: where there has to be this one thing that directly 607 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 2: feeds into the idea, and then of course there are 608 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 2: many other sorts of shells to consider. But you know, 609 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,800 Speaker 2: it's basically it's an interesting question coming from an individual 610 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 2: here who is, i believe, you know, on one hand, 611 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:52,880 Speaker 2: very interested in mine iconography, but also devoted to to 612 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 2: various projects that involve classifying and chronicling the biodiversity of 613 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,080 Speaker 2: the region. Anyway, he stresses that a great deal of 614 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 2: additional research needs to be done in this area, but 615 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 2: he ponders whether the model for God in might have 616 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 2: been a hermit crab, if not for the God entirely, 617 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 2: at least for one phase of the deity, one of 618 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 2: the four aspects of the coat. 619 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 3: Ah, that's interesting. So yeah, so, like because if you 620 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 3: see a spiral shell one that you might be tempted 621 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 3: to assume it is supposed to be associated with the 622 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 3: animal that creates the shell originally, but the shell is 623 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 3: equally associated with the animals that inhabit it after the 624 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:32,839 Speaker 3: original animals are dead. 625 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so this this got me really excited. But 626 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 2: then sadly he doesn't have much to say about the 627 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 2: idea because basically it was like, well, you know, maybe 628 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 2: this is something we can look into later. But it 629 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,320 Speaker 2: was just enough to sort of, you know, to inspire 630 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 2: me a little bit and think, well, yeah, what are 631 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 2: the possibilities there? And does it mean like that the 632 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 2: god occupies different housings like the turtle shell and then 633 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,359 Speaker 2: the snail or conk shell. I don't think that's necessarily 634 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 2: the case, or more likely that like just one phase 635 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 2: of the entity is perhaps based on a hermit crab. 636 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,719 Speaker 2: And he also points out that he's like, I can't 637 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 2: be the only person who has thought of this idea, 638 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 2: And yet I can't really find any other references to it. 639 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,839 Speaker 2: And I looked around. I couldn't really either. But I 640 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:23,880 Speaker 2: did find mention of the hermit crab's mythological significance in 641 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 2: a paper titled late post Classical Ritual at Santa Rita Corrazol, Belize, 642 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 2: Understanding the Archaeology of a Maya Capital City. This is 643 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 2: by Diane Z. Chase and Arlen F. Chase. This is 644 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,400 Speaker 2: published in Research Reports in Belizean Archaeology. So Chase and 645 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 2: Chase point out that they're basically this paper deals with 646 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 2: an analysis of depictions of various animals in may iconography. 647 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,799 Speaker 2: They point out that there are several animals that seem 648 00:38:54,880 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 2: to represent the underworld and the surface of the surface 649 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 2: level of our reality, like the borderland between than the 650 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:06,920 Speaker 2: I guess you could call it the natural world or 651 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,920 Speaker 2: the visual the visual world and the world of the unseen, 652 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:16,720 Speaker 2: And furthermore, that these animals could take on supernatural significance 653 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:21,840 Speaker 2: as entities that can travel between those worlds or travel 654 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 2: at the very barrier of those worlds. They specify the turtle, 655 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 2: and of course we already talked about the turtle significance 656 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:36,880 Speaker 2: in Mayan iconography depicting this particular deity, but also the 657 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:41,760 Speaker 2: cayman the shark, specifically the shark's fin as it breaks 658 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,120 Speaker 2: the surface of the water. Like, here's an organism that 659 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 2: is literally in both worlds at the same time. And 660 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:54,719 Speaker 2: they reference the hermit crab. H So they point out that, Okay, 661 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,319 Speaker 2: the hermit crab does not really live at that boundary point. 662 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 2: It's not like the fin of the sh chark where 663 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 2: it's poking through or anything. It's not like the turtle 664 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 2: coming up for air. But they but they do stress 665 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,959 Speaker 2: that hermit crabs across many species, of course, are found 666 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:17,920 Speaker 2: both on the shore and underwater. Plus, as we've discussed, 667 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,240 Speaker 2: we know that terrestrial hermit crabs are still intrinsically bound 668 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,640 Speaker 2: to the ocean as well. I mean, the reproduction depends 669 00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:26,760 Speaker 2: upon it, so they are not one hundred percent terrestrial. 670 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,279 Speaker 2: They are still creatures of the ocean that live upon 671 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 2: the land. So they reference the creatures as well in 672 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 2: comparison to various ceremonial urns, the lids of which are 673 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 2: not merely lids, but represent the surface of the visible world, 674 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 2: or this barrier between our visible world and the world 675 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:46,319 Speaker 2: of the unseen, which in this case would be like 676 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 2: the interior of the urn, the interior of this vessel, 677 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 2: you know, just as the surface of the water, both 678 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:57,759 Speaker 2: from the standpoint of a surface versus aquatic life, as 679 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 2: well as just symbolic thinking, is the barrier point? 680 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 3: Ah, that is interesting And yeah, and the hermit crab 681 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 3: not only is an animal that could inhabit a kind 682 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:11,440 Speaker 3: of boundary environment, but also crosses from inside to outside 683 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 3: in that way, you know, crosses from the inside of 684 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:15,760 Speaker 3: its shell to the outside to crawl around. 685 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So I'm left trying to imagine the hermit 686 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,240 Speaker 2: crab is kind of a psychopump, kind of of an entity, 687 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:24,759 Speaker 2: like a creature that is here to guide you through 688 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,160 Speaker 2: to the underworld. I mean that's I don't think that's 689 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 2: what the authors were directly getting at here. But still 690 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 2: this idea of the hermit crab is this kind of 691 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 2: creature with an innate understanding of the threshold between our 692 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,000 Speaker 2: world and the next, you know, is this creature that 693 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:45,200 Speaker 2: travels both sides. And like I said, I think I 694 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:47,759 Speaker 2: referenced in the first episode. You know, I saw the 695 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 2: terrestrial hermit crabs in Belize, and then when I went 696 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:55,480 Speaker 2: in snorkeling, I also saw at least one aquatic hermit 697 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:57,640 Speaker 2: crab underwater, and so there is kind of a sense 698 00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,480 Speaker 2: of like, hey, you're under here too. Guys are all 699 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,880 Speaker 2: over the place. You get around, you know what it 700 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:04,880 Speaker 2: is to travel between worlds. 701 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,799 Speaker 3: And apparently across time as well, sometimes living in the 702 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 3: house forged one hundred thousand years ago. 703 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it is interesting to think of all this 704 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:15,960 Speaker 2: like commared to those other animals are just referenced, Like 705 00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 2: you know, the sea turtle, for instance, is very majestic 706 00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,440 Speaker 2: to behold in the water, and you can imagine this 707 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:27,400 Speaker 2: is an interdimensional dimensional traveler. Likewise, the cayman and the 708 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,279 Speaker 2: shark may take on even sinister qualities like yeah, of 709 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 2: course these are creatures that have ventured into the underworld. 710 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,120 Speaker 2: But the hermit crabs, you know, they just seem very busy. 711 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:41,239 Speaker 2: They seem too busy to really waste much time in 712 00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:43,920 Speaker 2: instructing you about the barrier between worlds. 713 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,520 Speaker 3: Well, Rob, I have greatly enjoyed this exploration of hermit crabs, 714 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:49,839 Speaker 3: and I feel like we may have to come back 715 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:51,240 Speaker 3: to them because I know there's a lot of stuff 716 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:52,200 Speaker 3: we didn't even get to. 717 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:56,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, again. This is a thriving area of scientific research. 718 00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:00,640 Speaker 2: New discoveries are taking place, new papers are coming out 719 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,040 Speaker 2: all the time. So yeah, we might return to the 720 00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,440 Speaker 2: world of hermit crabs in the future. We'll definitely return 721 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 2: to the world of crabs. You know, it ain't the 722 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:11,719 Speaker 2: holidays unless we're talking about crabs. All right, We're gonna 723 00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:13,360 Speaker 2: go ahead and close it out here. We'd love to 724 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,480 Speaker 2: hear from everyone out there. If you have observations concerning 725 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:20,120 Speaker 2: hermit crabs, if you have insight on any of the 726 00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:25,399 Speaker 2: topics we've discussed in these episodes, write in. We would 727 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:27,880 Speaker 2: love to hear from you. Just a reminder that Stuff 728 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,080 Speaker 2: to Blow your Mind is primarily a science podcast, with 729 00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:33,160 Speaker 2: core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We do listener mail 730 00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,719 Speaker 2: on Mondays, we do a short form episode on Wednesdays, 731 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:37,840 Speaker 2: and on Fridays, we set aside most serious concerns to 732 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,560 Speaker 2: just talk about a weird movie on Weird House Cinema. 733 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:45,960 Speaker 2: Sometimes there are giant crabs involved. We'll also remind you, hey, 734 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,840 Speaker 2: if you haven't rated and reviewed the podcast somewhere that 735 00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,400 Speaker 2: allows you to do that, go pop in there. Give 736 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:56,319 Speaker 2: us a nice helping of stars and let's see if 737 00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,759 Speaker 2: you listen to the podcast on an Apple device or 738 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,399 Speaker 2: through Apple Podcasts or what have you, maybe just pop 739 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:03,560 Speaker 2: in there and make sure that you're still subscribed and 740 00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:05,640 Speaker 2: that you are in fact receiving downloads. 741 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:10,360 Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 742 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,239 Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us 743 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,080 Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 744 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:17,319 Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hi, 745 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,800 Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 746 00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:29,959 Speaker 3: your Mind dot com. 747 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:33,000 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 748 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,839 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 749 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:53,000 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.