1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. A step fund ever 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 1: told your production of I Heart Radio? How often do 3 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: we do two partners? Is it an often thing? It 4 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,600 Speaker 1: is less often as of recent m I think the 5 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: last big two partter was Women Who Loves You A 6 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: Village that it was that a two parter. I know 7 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 1: that one wasn't, but the Women's Serial Killers was for 8 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: sure something else we did not too long ago. Oh, 9 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: Women Who Organized? That was a two parter, I think. 10 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: And then Star Wars obviously obviously those are those two 11 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: are two partners. Yeah. I used to be really hesitant 12 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,599 Speaker 1: about two partners that I would try really hard to condense. 13 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: But there's a certain point. I believe it was yesterday 14 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: where I contacted you and I was like, I think 15 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: this women is going to have to be a two partner, right. 16 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:01,959 Speaker 1: I think we both like there's moments that we think 17 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: it's not going to be big, and then we're like, oh, 18 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: oh mind because the Women who Organized I did not 19 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 1: anticipate doing but it felt so sad to cut it off, 20 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: so we wanted to add as much as we could. 21 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: And sometimes, as it means two parters, yes, and here 22 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: is a second part of a two part series we 23 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: had on women leading cults, So highly recommend you go 24 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 1: listen to part one first because we do a lot 25 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:30,919 Speaker 1: of baseline what are cults? Sort of all the arguments 26 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: about cults um, which is really key to this conversation. 27 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: There's so much we could unpack in all of this, right, 28 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: all of it. So if that's something that you listeners 29 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,320 Speaker 1: would like to hear, please let us know. But just 30 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: we're kind of doing um I won't say superficial, but 31 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: we're not going into the depths we could on all 32 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: of these cults and all of these women and whether 33 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: or not their cults. We're talking more about examples rather 34 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: than the psyche and more trauma behind it, so that 35 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 1: muld be later though. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah for sure. 36 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: I don't know why I got so weirdly excited, but 37 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:10,799 Speaker 1: it's just that psych aspect. Its interesting when you always 38 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 1: look deeper about the why, it's always more fascinating to 39 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: know it is it is. So before we get into 40 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 1: these examples, quick trigger warning, there will be discussion of suicide, 41 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: sexual abuse, violence, death, murder, general abuse. We're not going 42 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: to go too deep into any of that. But when 43 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: you're talking about colts, it can get pretty grizzly and disturbing. 44 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: And yes, as we said in part one, there's a 45 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: lot of argument going on in debate around what constitutes 46 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,399 Speaker 1: a cult, and there are lots of layers of sexism, racism, 47 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 1: and anti any religion that's not Christianity involved in these discussions. 48 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: But yeah, just to acknowledge that that's going on. And 49 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: but the women were talking about, and the organizations were 50 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 1: talking about, not everyone agree these women were coal leaders, 51 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: and I think those conversations are well worth having. Some 52 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: of these organizations might not be considered cults at all 53 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 1: points in history, but with the right person, they can 54 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: become cults or at the very least run by someone 55 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: who fits the cult leader stereotype. Who yeah, we talked 56 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,359 Speaker 1: about that in part one as well, but like charismatic 57 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: is one of the very key things there, and controlling 58 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:21,679 Speaker 1: and like just demanding all this adoration and complete submission. 59 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: That being said, these are some of the women that 60 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: frequently come up when you're digging around the internet for 61 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:33,839 Speaker 1: women cult leaders. And another disclaimer, the histories of these 62 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: can be a bit murkier fantastical. As we said in 63 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: our Serial Killers episode, it just can get a real 64 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: difficult because even even reputable newspaper sources sometimes like to 65 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: really lean into that morbid, ghastly side of all of this, 66 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: So it's hard to say for sure, right right, definitely 67 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: level shock factor for sure. And speaking of let's start 68 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: this one with a Clementine Barnavett, sometimes is called the 69 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:04,119 Speaker 1: first black female serial killer in the United States. In 70 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: nineteen eleven, a Louisiana police department got a frantic call 71 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: about a suspected incident. Sure enough, when police arrived on 72 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: the scene, they discovered the bodies of a man, woman 73 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: child with their skulls split open, a bloody dacs at 74 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: the head of the bed, a bucket of blood in 75 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 1: the corner, bloody footprints throughout the room, and they deduced 76 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: the killer must have come through the windows since the 77 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: doors were locked at the time. A local newspaper called 78 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: it quote the most brutal murder in the history of 79 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: the section. It was not the only acts murder to 80 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: take place in nearby areas of Louisiana and Texas. These 81 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: murders were believed to be the work of a cult 82 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,359 Speaker 1: by the name of the Church of Sacrifice that required 83 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: human sacrifices for their religious rights, rumored to be led 84 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 1: up by a voodoo priestess. Even so, all of the 85 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: initial suspects were men. One source described the murders as 86 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: reigned with acts, and after other similar murders took place, 87 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: usually a families, the authorities began to suspect that they 88 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:03,359 Speaker 1: were quote the work of the same terrible monster. Sources 89 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: indicate most, if not all, of these families were black families, 90 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: so the police eventually turned their sights on a sharecropper 91 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: on the wrong side of town uh named Raymond Barnabette. 92 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 1: Both his children, Zephyrn and Clementine, testified against them, claiming 93 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 1: they were scared for their lives. He was abusive to 94 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: his whole family. According to records. However, more murders took 95 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: place while Raymond was in jail. Both of the children 96 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: were arrested, in part because their neighbors described them as 97 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: the generous and in part because Clementine had blood from 98 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 1: one of the murders on her shirt. A local newspaper 99 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,359 Speaker 1: reported in nineteen eleven that when the police searched the 100 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: Barnabot household, they found a complete set of women's clothes 101 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: in her room saturated with blood. And covered with human 102 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: brains with no albi. Clementine went to jail. The murders 103 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: did not let up. Three families were murdered in January 104 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: of nineteen twelve. The dead's hands were splayed apart with wood, 105 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: and messages like this one were left on the walls. 106 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 1: When he make a the inquisition for blood, he forgetteth 107 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: not the cry of the Humble A bit of a 108 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 1: twist on a Bible verse. By the way, these messages 109 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: were written by hand and signed Human five. And the 110 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: press began attributing these murders to the Human five gang, 111 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: and they really went all in on this voodoo aspect, 112 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: just as more and more people were talking about Clementized 113 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 1: possible connection to the mysterious Church of Sacrifice. Reverend King 114 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 1: Harris was sought to be the leader of this church, 115 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 1: but upon questioning police dismissed them as a suspect. Lementine 116 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,919 Speaker 1: confessed to killing seventeen people in April of nineteen twelve. 117 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 1: She further explained that she wore a voodoo charm for 118 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: protection while she killed. In her words, it was gifted 119 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: to her by a vodoo priest, a man who did 120 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: not claim himself as a foodoo priest in question, so 121 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: it was somebody that they followed up with and he 122 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: was like, whoa what And straws were drawn, according to her, 123 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: between her and her accomplices to see who would commit 124 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: the murders. She went on to say she dressed as 125 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: a man to be left relatively alone and unnoticed. On 126 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 1: night she was planning on killing someone, and a local 127 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: paper reported that she said she killed the kids so 128 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: as not to leave them an orphan in this world. 129 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: She said that she would quote Chariss the Corpses, and 130 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: one district attorney called her a moral pervert because of 131 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,239 Speaker 1: what she said in her testimony against her father. People 132 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: were still confused about the veracity of her claims. When 133 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: she gave the names of her accomplices, all that was 134 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: turned up. They were all dead ends. She said she 135 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: believed that sacrifices were the way to achieve immortality. A 136 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: nineteen twelve article headline read the x men as a woman, 137 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: what's the exclamation point? So later examination found there was 138 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: no church of sacrifice, and that perhaps it was confused 139 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: with Harris's sanctified church, especially with the swirling rumors of voodoo, 140 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: and none of those was helped by the fact that 141 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: during her time and Jill, Clementine constantly modified her story 142 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: and ended up confessing to thirty five murders who her 143 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: attorneys argued that she was insane, but this did not 144 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: prevent a judge from dancing her to life at nineteen 145 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: years old. She tried and fell to escape early on, 146 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: but other than that didn't really cause much trouble. In fact, 147 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: one report about her imprisonment claimed that a procedure returned 148 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: to her normal condition and she was released on good 149 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: behavior after a decade had passed. So that's all pretty murky. 150 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: People who have delved into this belief that Clementine did 151 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: commit some of the murders, but maybe not all of them. However, 152 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: they think someone in that household was the primary murderer. 153 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: Over at True Crime Daily, James Horror wrote, she scandalized 154 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: the press, stirring up a gumbo of moral panic and 155 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: a state where civil war and slavery remained a living memory. 156 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: Everything about Clementine Barnabett represented a collision, even a perversion, 157 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: of cultures in the eyes of white Louisiana. From her 158 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: mangled Creole French to her mangled beliefs a tabloid baiting 159 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: blend of voodoo itself, a blend of Catholicism and West 160 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: African tribal rights and Evangelical Christianity. So I wanted to 161 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 1: include that because for this one, like her name came 162 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: up a lot. But there's just clearly to me, like 163 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: even in the language of the newspapers, like degenerates, the 164 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 1: wrong side of town, and this whole like voodoo thing 165 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 1: that the press was really pushing that there's just like 166 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 1: a layer of racism over the whole thing. And it 167 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: doesn't feel because this was kind of debunked, right that 168 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 1: they found no proof of this church, but it's still 169 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: she comes up as a woman needing a cult. Yeah 170 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: so yeah. So in nine in an Amazonian town in Brazil, 171 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,839 Speaker 1: there were several reports of missing children. The authorities looked 172 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: into it but couldn't find in the elites, and the 173 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: cases jumped to nineteen missing children between the ages of 174 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 1: eight and thirteen. Five other children had been found dead, 175 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: castrated with signs of torture. Officials believed that the murders 176 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: and disappearance were related to a medical guild due to 177 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: precise nature of castrations. These bodies were identified as homeless boys, 178 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: but the boys who had been reported missing have been 179 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: done so by their families and depending on the source, 180 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: her two boys managed to escape after castration and found 181 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: some officials. Whatever the case, only one ended up testifying, 182 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:11,359 Speaker 1: and the story he told was horrific torture, rape, mutilation, 183 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,079 Speaker 1: like eyes gouged out and castration. He testified that other 184 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: children were stabbed and killed, their organs sold on the 185 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: black market or they ate them, but again this has 186 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: not been confirmed, and in his testimony he named a 187 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:26,959 Speaker 1: handful of people doctor it's a police officer, while the 188 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 1: businessman and Valentina de Andrade, the leader of the religious cult. 189 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: The cult in question was called Superior Universal Alignment, a 190 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: UFO cult led by Valentina whose members believed the world 191 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: was ending and the only way to be saved was 192 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: by following the commands of their leader. She claimed she'd 193 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: been contacted by extra extraterrestrial beings and that they claimed 194 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: the apocalypse was not but that if she passed along 195 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: the message, they would send a ship to collect her 196 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: and other believers to spare them. She believed that God 197 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: wasn't real and that Jesus was an alien. Perhaps the 198 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 1: most shocking thing she said, though, was that boys born 199 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: after which is when she claimed to have received her message, 200 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,839 Speaker 1: were evil and needed to be killed, both because they 201 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: were evil but also to serve as payment to their 202 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 1: extraterrestrial saviors. Five children were never found of the nineteen 203 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: reported missing, and four of the perpetrators were captured. However, 204 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: Valentina managed to escape the country and evaded capture for 205 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: several years. Even when authorities did locate her, she provided 206 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: an albi for the murders and was released. Apparently she 207 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: fainted at this verdict. Yeah, so we have some more 208 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: examples for you, but first we have a quick break 209 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: for words from our sponsor, every Back, Thank you. Sponsored. 210 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: Along with Marshall Apple White Blue Nettles co founded the 211 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: UFO cult Heaven's Gate in the nineteen seventies, and she 212 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: believed herself to have a divine purpose. She was known 213 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: as t She also went by Peep while he went 214 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 1: by Bow, and the two of them went by the 215 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: two went together. She was a registered nurse and raised 216 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,439 Speaker 1: in Texas. She got married, had four children, but then 217 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,559 Speaker 1: reportedly started doing seances in the early nineteen seventies. According 218 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,559 Speaker 1: to some sources, she thought among named a brother Frances 219 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: from the nineteenth century was communicating with her and giving 220 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 1: her instructions. She was big into astrology and the occult 221 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: u and she visited several fortune tellers, at least one 222 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:39,959 Speaker 1: of whom told her she would soon meet someone matching 223 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 1: apple Wise description um and the stories of how they 224 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: met very from inside hospital to a theater after an accident, 225 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: something like that. Allegedly, Nettles was asked to perform a 226 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: reading on apple White and agreed. She determined they were 227 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: spiritual matches. Apple White was gay, though he did marry 228 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,200 Speaker 1: and have two children. His family was very religious in 229 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: conservative and despite his best efforts, he did engage in 230 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: a few homosexual relationships. Nettles and apple White had a 231 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: non sexual relationship, he later wrote of it, but the 232 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 1: only relationship they shared, certainly having no physical attraction towards 233 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: each other, was the compulsion to discover what had brought 234 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: them together. James Lewis, author on a book of Uflo 235 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: occults and a professor at the Institute for the Study 236 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: of American Religion, said quote, apple White was so alienated 237 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: from his homosexuality that he was teaching people not to 238 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: have sex. He would put people of opposite sexes together 239 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: and forced them to learn to become neutral, non sexual. Apparently, 240 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: apple White had himself castrated and that perhaps others in 241 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: the group were castrated as well, And in nineteen seventy three, 242 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: Nettles told her daughter and son she was leaving and 243 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,199 Speaker 1: that was the last they ever saw of her with 244 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 1: apple White. She said that God was leading them in 245 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: a certain big direction. She said a cryptic religious message 246 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: to her daughter several months later, claiming that she and 247 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: apple White were witness members were required to dress alike 248 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: and cut their hair, which I think people know about. 249 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 1: Together they formed Heaven's Gates. Nettles said she'd communicated with 250 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: aliens about the next level, and apple White declared she 251 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: was higher rank than him in nineteen seventies six. Her 252 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: eye had to be removed in nineteen three due to 253 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: cancer spreading throughout her body, and according to her daughter, 254 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: the letters changed in the eighties and that she got 255 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: and since her mother wanted out, but there wasn't a 256 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: graceful way to leave, as she said. Yes, So Nettles 257 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 1: died of cancer twelve years before apple White and thirty 258 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: others killed themselves in a mass suicide event, believing that 259 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: it would allow them to access a UFO following in 260 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: the wake of the Haileybot comment, believing that it would 261 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: grant them passage to the quote yes next Kingdom um or. 262 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: Right before this event was carried out, the website was 263 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: updated with a message that they were happy to leave 264 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: this world and join quote tease Crew. Experts believe her 265 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: death was a significant touchstone in terms of beliefs around 266 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: the body being quote just a vehicle, which is what 267 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: apple White said about Nettles making base for the tragic 268 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: event that was about to occur. Nettle's daughter tried to 269 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: contact her to get her out, but was told her 270 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: messages wouldn't be passed along unless she told them what 271 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: she planned to say. When the daughter said it's personal, 272 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: they hung up. Mm hmmm, said so next, we want 273 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: to talk about Amy Simple McPherson, who was a faith healer, evangelist, 274 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: and the founder of Four Square Gospel Church and builder 275 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: of the Angelist Temple. She was born into a religious 276 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: family in eighteen ninety, but she soon had questions about 277 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: their faith. At the same time, she was a vocal 278 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: opponent of evolution. At a teen, she married and got 279 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: pregnant and on their honeymoon. Her husband died when she 280 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: returned to the US. She remarried and had another child, 281 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: but soon grew restless and absconded with both the children, 282 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: leaving her husband for a religious calling. She traveled the 283 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: country in a touring car, the gospel car that had 284 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: the message Jesus is coming soon and get ready, stopping 285 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: to speak at churches along the way, and she really 286 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: knew her way around a crowd um. She would speak 287 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: in tongues. She would perform faith healing demonstrations and which 288 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: she appeared to have cured people. She was breaking at 289 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: tendance records compared to other evangelical leaders. As a woman, 290 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: she was a rarity in that space. At a San 291 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: Diego event, over thirty thou people showed up to see 292 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: her and the Marines had to be called. It was 293 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: described as the best show in town. And just for example, 294 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: she would ride motorcycles into these events. Sometimes they had 295 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: like lights and special effects. She was one of the 296 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: first women in the US to travel across the country 297 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: in a car without a male chaperone, and she frequently argued, 298 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: who says a woman can't preach gospel? Charlie Chaplin was 299 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: a secret friend of hers and helped her with her sermons. Wow, 300 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: I can't believe I've never heard of her before this, 301 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: because yeah, it's so rare to see uh traveling teachers 302 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: and Hayley that aren't that aren't men? I know, tap 303 00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: I hadn't heard of her either, because it sounds like 304 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: she had a big pool during her thirty thousand that's 305 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 1: a huge number for sure. So eventually she decided to 306 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: retire from the crowds and travel, settling in La where 307 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: she raised funds for the angelist church one point five 308 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: million Wow, where she gave sermons seven days a week. 309 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 1: In nine she launched her own radio station called kf 310 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 1: q G four Square Gospel, and she also hosted successful 311 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: radio broadcast, making her one of the first women to 312 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: receive a broadcast license in the US. Around this time, 313 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 1: she formed her own church for Square UH and the 314 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 1: name comes from four facets of Jesus, Transformative Salvation, divine healing, Baptism, 315 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: and the Return of Christ. Mini male leaders in the 316 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: space were vocal opponents, which not surprised Nope, not at all. 317 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:50,360 Speaker 1: In she disappeared on a swim, an event that captured 318 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 1: national headlines attention and rampant speculation about what happened to 319 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: sister Amy, as she was called a believer, literally drowned themselves. 320 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: It was, it was said in sorrow, but I believe 321 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,479 Speaker 1: they were just trying to swim out and help with 322 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: the effort. Members through dynamite in the water, hoping to surface. 323 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 1: Her rumors spread like wildfire, that she disappeared to have 324 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: an abortion, that she had had an affair, that she'd 325 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 1: gotten plastic surgery, that maybe there'd be a ransom or 326 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 1: foul play was involved. The police received a ransom note 327 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 1: demanding five thousand dollars for her release, and it was 328 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: signed by the avengers I know, getting up to no good. 329 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: Amy showed up in Mexico a month later. Her identity 330 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: was proven by her knowledge of her childhood pet pigeons 331 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: name which I love, and at the location of one 332 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: of her scars. Amy claimed she had been kidnapped by 333 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: three Americans who demanded a ransom, but she was able 334 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 1: to escape, by her account, sawing out of the rope 335 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:52,120 Speaker 1: restraining her and walking twenty miles. After a reporter questioned 336 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: if this was possible, Amy said, many have said that 337 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: a woman could not have built Angelus temple and do 338 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 1: these others seemingly impossible things, but I did. She sure 339 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: did so. When she returned home, over fifty thousand cheering 340 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 1: spectators met her at the train station with a parade. However, 341 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: her return was not without suspicion, and officials looked into 342 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: her kidnapping. She voluntarily showed up at a grain jury, 343 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:20,199 Speaker 1: and the rumors swirling, particularly around an engineer of a 344 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: radio station owned by McPherson's church, who disappeared at the 345 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,919 Speaker 1: same time she did. However, there wasn't enough evidence to 346 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: back this claim, so the judge dropped the case against her. 347 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 1: McPherson wrote a book about it in ninety seven called 348 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: In the Service of the King, The Story of My Life. 349 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 1: She died in nineteen forty four of what was deemed 350 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 1: as probably accidental overdose or Over forty five thousand people 351 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: came to see her lying in state, and when she died, 352 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 1: the Fourth Square Church was worth nine million dollars, and 353 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: these days there are over nine million members. They're over 354 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: seventeen hundred four Square churches in the US and over 355 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 1: sixties six thou also meeting places worldwide. She's been credited 356 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,479 Speaker 1: with bringing modern air conservatism into the era of modern media. 357 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: It's a lot of money. Yeah, so she's been coming 358 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 1: up a lot when we were talking about the kind 359 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 1: of these personality based shows that do you know the 360 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: opinion shows, especially when it comes to conservatism, and how 361 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: religion often plays into that. And this one too is one. 362 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,880 Speaker 1: I've never heard of this church, but I know that 363 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: you could foreshure argue whether or not it qualifies as 364 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: a cult. There's nothing out right that screams to meet 365 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 1: cult about it, right, It does come up on several lists, 366 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 1: But I'm wondering if that's more about her more of 367 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:51,160 Speaker 1: a cult of personality, like she was just so charismatic 368 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: and people have really really adored her and would do 369 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 1: anything for her. Um and again, like we could go, 370 00:20:58,119 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: we could do deep dives on all of these and 371 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,200 Speaker 1: maybe there's just something I don't know about it about 372 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: this church. But right, that was just kind of my 373 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: take on it where I'm sort of surprised has kept 374 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: popping up on other lists about cult leaders. I mean, 375 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 1: and again, yeah, there's a conversation of how she's getting 376 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: this money, where she's getting this money, which also is 377 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 1: kind of that political turning and conversation of that as well. 378 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: But it's also unprecedented that a woman started a church 379 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: and it still exists today to the popularity that it 380 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 1: is saying. I will say I've not heard of this 381 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 1: church either before this episode, but it is interesting to 382 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,120 Speaker 1: see how it continues to pop up. And again, yeah, 383 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 1: you're right, cult it seems a little more dark than 384 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: what this is presenting. But we do also know, like 385 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 1: when it comes to followings and especially of the hell 386 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: Fibrimstone era that she grew up in with a traveling preachers, 387 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 1: which has now formed into different religions itself. It also 388 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:59,479 Speaker 1: can be seemingly cultish because of the supernatural element to it. 389 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: And and that's another which we keep saying. But I 390 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 1: just know that this is such a like fine line 391 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: of some people will call this a cult and other 392 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: people wouldn't. And sometimes that line for some people can 393 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,880 Speaker 1: be oh, that looks so different and weird and heavy 394 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 1: quads compared to what I am used to, So it 395 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: must be a cult. It makes me nervous. It makes 396 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:24,919 Speaker 1: me nervous and a good This is also based on 397 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: old religion, And when I say old religion, you don't 398 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: see the practicing of tongues the healing in general. Don't 399 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: get me wrong, I've seen it. I've seen that it 400 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,120 Speaker 1: still exists, but you just don't see it as much, 401 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: and especially in popularity. Yeah, I guess maybe that's maybe 402 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,199 Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons it is classified as a 403 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: cult to some people. Is that kind of whole faith 404 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 1: healing speaking in tongues aspects, which you know can be 405 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 1: a lot of religions can have people like that who 406 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 1: are just like really bombastic and entertaining. Way, not to 407 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: dismiss at all like people's beliefs, but I'm just saying like, 408 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: as part of a somebody who can gather that sort 409 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: of passion and excitement and that can be almost like 410 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: an entertainment or a role that you're getting people excited 411 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 1: about this thing. Right. And again, though, if we look 412 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: at what she did compared to some religions today, there's 413 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: not that much difference. So you do have to question that. Yes, now, 414 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: probably after this I'll look it up and something super 415 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 1: dark involved. I think that would be on the top 416 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 1: of like right information, And you're right, like, we don't 417 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: see that. It's just more of her accomplishments that we 418 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: see more so than what the religion or the practice did. Yeah, 419 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 1: and definitely, like you said, kind of a big impact 420 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: of like having this first radio station as a woman 421 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 1: like license and being in this space and then providing 422 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 1: a jumping off platform for conservatism and modern media today. 423 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 1: And it could be also the language back then competing 424 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 1: I guess church or belief system, you learn to call 425 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: it something insidious, and so that for cult maybe the 426 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: automatic name given just because you don't like it, and 427 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 1: it is again done by someone who's not given according 428 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,159 Speaker 1: to them authority, which is a woman, right, which is 429 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: a whole different conversation. But once again, yeah, no that 430 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 1: I had that top thought too. I don't feel I 431 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,679 Speaker 1: have enough knowledge of this particular event, but I do 432 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,640 Speaker 1: wonder if there was a layer, if there's a woman 433 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 1: doing this thing that seen as a man's space cult. 434 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 1: It's weird. Yes, these are just Yes, these are like 435 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: you and I just hypo analyzing what this is happening. Yes, 436 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: I mean I think certainly there's at least a layer 437 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 1: of that, and most of these there's a layer sexism, racism, 438 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 1: and this isn't Christianity like I see it in the 439 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: United States specifically, and some of these are heinous too 440 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: though just yes, I don't want to Yes, both of 441 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:50,880 Speaker 1: those things exist in this these two episodes. Yes, absolutely 442 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:55,880 Speaker 1: absolutely good point to make. Um. But we do have 443 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: one more woman cult leader we want to share with you. 444 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: But first we have one more quick break for from 445 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: her sponsor and we're fact thank you sponsored. We thought 446 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: we would finish out this two part series about women 447 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 1: leading cults with Anne Hamilton's burn the charismatic leader of 448 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: the Australian Doomsday cult The Family. Hamilton Burne was a 449 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: woman of many talents. She could sing and play the harp. 450 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: She was put together, as they say, with style, blonde 451 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: hair and pearls and shouldnell perfume. One of her ex 452 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: followers set of her. In ancient times we hear about 453 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,880 Speaker 1: enchantresses who could enslave people with one glance. She had 454 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: eyes that looked through your soul. After her mother set 455 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 1: her hair on fire, she was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia 456 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 1: and ended up spending twenty seven years and a psychiatric 457 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 1: asylum before she died and spent some time in orphanages 458 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,360 Speaker 1: and her hers husband died in a car accident when 459 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: she was twenty. She had given birth to one daughter, 460 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 1: and as rumors go, had suffered many miscarriages by then 461 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: right and in the nineteen sixties Hamilton Burn founded the 462 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: family and claimed that she was Jesus reborn as a woman. 463 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,879 Speaker 1: She was reportedly inspired by Russian born medium by the 464 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,399 Speaker 1: name of Helena Bilovotski, who founded the Theosophical Society in 465 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,439 Speaker 1: New York in eighteen seventy five. Bolovotsky introduced many to 466 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 1: Hinduism and Buddhism. When Hamilton's Burn took up yoga in 467 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties as a bomb to her grief, she 468 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,120 Speaker 1: pretty quickly fell in love with the ideas of Eastern mysticism. 469 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 1: She started teaching in the nineteen sixties and by all 470 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: accounts was a pretty good teacher. She was really good 471 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: at getting a read on people's vulnerabilities. She allowed gay 472 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 1: men in the face of the anti homosexuality laws in 473 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 1: place in Australia at the time. She also managed to 474 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 1: recruit a physicist and a master at Queen's College at 475 00:26:55,880 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: Melbourne University, Dr Rayner Johnson. He was approaching retirement and 476 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 1: curious to explore new quote weird areas and interest amongst 477 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,719 Speaker 1: the scientific community about spiritualism was on the rise, and 478 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:13,679 Speaker 1: he just became completely beguiled by Hamilton's Byrne, even naming 479 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: her the next Messiah. For what he declared to be 480 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 1: purely academic purposes, he experimented with LC and took notes 481 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: about it, including this quote, Her face became divinely beautiful, 482 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: with sublime authority, unquestionably the wisest, the serenest, and most 483 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,439 Speaker 1: gracious and generous soul I've ever met. He and his 484 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 1: wife bought a home near Hamilton's Burne, and together they 485 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 1: birth the family. The family lived in obscurity and Melbourne, 486 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: and their motto was Unseen, Unknown, unheard. Hamilton Burne targeted 487 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 1: well at professionals, telling them that she had quote been 488 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 1: waiting for them and that they were special. Dr Johnson 489 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 1: lent a scientific and legitimate heir to her claims. Her 490 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,359 Speaker 1: teachings were a combination of Christianity, Eastern mysticism, and a 491 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: sort of pacalypticism, and the initiation allegedly involved all members, 492 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,159 Speaker 1: even children, to indulge in a potentially deadly amount of 493 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: LSD and hallucinogens for a lengthy amount of time. After that, 494 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: she controlled practically all aspects of their lives and one 495 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 1: survivor's words quote there was only one rule to absolutely 496 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: everything she said that included what to think, what to wear, 497 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,159 Speaker 1: what to eat, who to marry, who not to marry, 498 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: total obedience. She gave sermons or discourses as they were called, 499 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: from a purple throne in a lodge funded by members money. 500 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: Many members of the cult tried to take their own 501 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: lives either during their time there are after, and if 502 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: you did upsettingly. To keep members in line, she'd beat them, 503 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: sometimes with the stiletto shoe, but she often left this 504 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: task to the aunties, who were middle aged women afraid 505 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: of their own punishment. If they didn't enacted on others um, 506 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: she would starve members um, emotionally, abuse and manipulate them. 507 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: The children might also get a daily dose of valium 508 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: are mogodon to keep them from fighting back, which just 509 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: kind of keeps them calm. At age fourteen, this switched 510 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: over to huge, continuous doses of LSD, and for many 511 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: this was disastrous, resulting in depressia, trauma, nightmares, social withdraw 512 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: and personality changes. So after two children escaped in nineteen 513 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 1: eight seven, police raided the family. Over the past few decades, 514 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: Hamilton Burne had a massive twenty eight children, The first 515 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 1: had arrived in the nineteen seventies, and some of them 516 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: as gifts and some of them sham adoptions. At the time, 517 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: Australia's regulation around adoptions were lacking, and the stigma around 518 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: unmarried motherhood it was pretty quite powerful. According to a 519 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: detective that tried to bring charges against Hamilton Burne, quote, 520 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: you had babies born in a cult hospitals, delivered by 521 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: cult midwives, headed over to cult social workers. Uh hamilton 522 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: Burn bleached the hair of all of them and adorned 523 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 1: them in matching clothes, telling them she was their birth mother. 524 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: She also told them she was royalty and owned castles. 525 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: She kept the children separate from the may in compound 526 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: at a wooden lodge two hours away, where they were 527 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: home schooled. She desired to be the perfect mother, but 528 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 1: had no real interest in actually putting any effort into that, 529 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 1: and thanks to property donations from followers in Land, Hamilton 530 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 1: Burn collected a hundred fifty million Australian dollars and she 531 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: was arrested for minor fraud charges in nineteen She and 532 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: our ex husband, who one follower described as a handsome 533 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: rich compliant handback got off with only five thousand a 534 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: U and fines, absolutely no jail time, and one of 535 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 1: the rescue teenagers after the nine eight seven Ready explained, 536 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 1: it's hard to say how devoted we are to her, 537 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: how we hung off her every look and every thought 538 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,959 Speaker 1: she had about us. We wanted so much for her 539 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 1: to love us, but I don't think she ever really did. 540 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: Julie Assange, founder of Wiki Leaks, admitted his mother's boyfriend 541 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: had been a member of this cult. Assange called him 542 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: a sinister presence and claimed that they ran from him. 543 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 1: Hamilton Burns spent over a decade in a nursing home, 544 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: where she eventually died. The Family. If you want to 545 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: know more, there is a documentary on it. Like we said, 546 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: there's podcast documentaries, Glower and almost all of these, so 547 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: the information is out there for you. Yes, there's a 548 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: documentary book called The Family by documentary filmmaker Rosie Jones 549 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: and journalist Chris Johnston. The creators were unable to interview 550 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: her due to her dementia and lack of ability to consent, 551 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 1: or they weren't able to film it or write it down, 552 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: but they did get to sit down with her and 553 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 1: they described the power of their experience. So yeah, I 554 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: just feel like there's so many themes we could unpack 555 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: here because we've really run the gamut of like, yes, 556 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: sexism and racism, at homophobia, and this idea of the 557 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 1: mother did come up a lot, just so much like 558 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: misogyny and toxic masculinity. Yeah, yeah, we could really come 559 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: back and dig into that some more. And I'm sure 560 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 1: each of the podcasts and the documentary talk about the 561 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: childhood and the background of the trauma that kind of 562 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: birth these people to be who they are. And I 563 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 1: say that loosely because you know, you don't you never know, 564 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: not to give any excuse, there's not an excuse, but 565 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: there's always a beginning, and I think that's that's an 566 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: interesting way to look at how these are created and 567 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: again with different personalities that can bring about these perfectly 568 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: placed disasters and or perfectly placed time frames. I guess 569 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: it's the best way to say, because we don't know 570 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 1: the depth of what has happened truly outside of those 571 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: who were inside of it. So there's there's a lot 572 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: of the things the question and to look at. But yeah, 573 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: just to see the background of what is happening, because again, 574 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 1: we see so much of a sensationalization of what has happened, 575 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 1: because we know, you know Jonestown, we know Waco, we 576 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: know the big details, but we don't know the small details. 577 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: Of course, the after ask for the members what has happened. 578 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: I know there's been a lot more documentation, documentaries, conversations 579 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: from survivors because they do want to tell their stories 580 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: and important for them to tell these stories that we 581 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: have to pay attention to that. And yet these are 582 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 1: not just incidents and though we we are giving off, 583 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: you know, details of what may have happened of or 584 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: it's just a small picture of what may have happened. Rather, 585 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: these were people's lives that are affected. And we do 586 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: see the lingering effects for different people who have been 587 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 1: affected by what we would call it consider a cult 588 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: that still exists that's not being recognized because of people's 589 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: opinions and or maybe politics that we again is you 590 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: talked about the some of these cults had political figureheads 591 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 1: behind them. Yeah, and that's one of the things for me, 592 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: this whole this is all very complicated, right because there 593 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: is a lot of trauma and you don't want to 594 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: absolve every anybody of blame. But there is that there's trauma, 595 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 1: and there's brainwashing. So if that's complicated, but then you 596 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 1: would see like for example, when you're talking about Betty 597 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 1: Lou Nettles, and I just noticed like people were really 598 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 1: into Oh, she did the seances and she did she 599 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,240 Speaker 1: was involved in the occult. There's nothing like apparently wrong 600 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: with any of that, right, um, And I know what 601 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 1: they were getting at. They were saying she was looking 602 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: for quote heavy quote alternative like enlightenment, enlightenment, and she 603 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 1: was interested in those things. But I do think that 604 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,439 Speaker 1: things like that can be problematic when we're having these 605 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 1: conversations because that doesn't necessarily mean cult. I know, we 606 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 1: keep coming back to that, but I just think that 607 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,439 Speaker 1: it's really really important. Right. So she use a prime 608 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,839 Speaker 1: example of someone who looked at alternative what would be 609 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 1: classified as new waged to ideas during that time. And yeah, 610 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 1: because it's abnormal and because we we are in a 611 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 1: country that it is so inundated into Western Christianity and 612 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 1: I have to specify that as a Western Christian unity 613 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 1: and this very idea of notion that almost takes to 614 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: the point that you know, the idea that Jesus is white, 615 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,319 Speaker 1: you know, that kind of level of what Christianity what 616 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 1: is right and wrong. So therefore that its cult and 617 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 1: that is super very super dangerous when we talk about that, 618 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: because we know again the New Age ideas and reading 619 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 1: palms or you do can through tarot cards does not 620 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,359 Speaker 1: equate cult in the story. You know, just because you 621 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: look at astrology or you trust in astrology does not 622 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 1: again quite cult. But there's this whole underlying, dark, sinister 623 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 1: idea behind it when you've raised up in again Western 624 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:44,839 Speaker 1: Christianity ideas and beliefs, which again is dangerous, absolutely for sure, 625 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,440 Speaker 1: and the same idea because I think me for me 626 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 1: growing up, which is why it was so fascinated by 627 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 1: Eastern religion, is because it was told me that is 628 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: forbidden in itself, you know what I mean, and then 629 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 1: learning about it and like, you know, this makes sense 630 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,400 Speaker 1: and I'm not a religious person, but the ideas behind 631 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:04,280 Speaker 1: in some of the beautiful sentiment behind understanding Eastern religion, 632 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: which has existed longer than again Western Christianity right like 633 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,800 Speaker 1: in itself, is a whole different conversation we could dig into, 634 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: because yeah, that also is fearmongering in itself and now 635 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 1: again the atrocities that we talked about, they are for real. 636 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: We need to talk about what has happened, how it 637 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,360 Speaker 1: has traumatized others, and why we need to talk about it. 638 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: But yeah, there's definitely the balance of we have to 639 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: remember the biases that could be placed into these reports 640 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 1: as well, exactly. Yeah, because it's not that we're seeing 641 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: these aren't cults or that the terrible, terrible things happened 642 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,759 Speaker 1: within them, because for a lot of them they did. 643 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: But I think it's just the language I picked up 644 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 1: on in it that I was kind of it kind 645 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 1: of made me a little anxious, like I get true 646 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: and I get it and this did end up being bad, 647 00:36:55,239 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean it always is, right, Yeah, very complex, 648 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 1: a lot of nuances, so many things. Glad we got 649 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,799 Speaker 1: into it, and I hope we Yeah, we'll definitely look 650 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 1: at the overall ideas of women and cults in general, 651 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:14,919 Speaker 1: just the help being a member, because we do see 652 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:19,800 Speaker 1: a lot of times it's heavily women. Yeah, yeah, we're 653 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:25,399 Speaker 1: definitely going to return to that. And uh, I'm both 654 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: excited and nervous anything. Yes, as most episodes on here 655 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 1: Um in the meantime listeners. If you would like to 656 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 1: contact as you can or email Stuff Media mom Stuff 657 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:38,360 Speaker 1: at i heeart media dot com. You can find us 658 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 1: on Instagram and Stuff I've Never Told You are on 659 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to our 660 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 1: super producer Christina, Thank you and thanks to you for 661 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 1: listening Stuff I've Never Told You his protection of I 662 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 1: Heart Radio for more podcast for My Heart Radio is 663 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 1: a Dihart radio app Apple podcast wherever you listen to 664 00:37:51,640 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 1: your favorite shows mo