1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. M 4 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to the show. My name is Noel. 5 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: Sitting here to my left is Matt the Invisible Matt. 6 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: He's a mattagineary for this episode or imaginary yep uh. 7 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: And if they called me Ben, we're joined with our 8 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 1: long suffering super producer Paul decons. Most importantly, you are 9 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: you and that makes this stuff they don't want you 10 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,480 Speaker 1: to know. Noel, did you ever have an imaginary friend 11 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: growing up? Serious question? Yeah? No, I I've thought about 12 00:00:56,360 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 1: that and I've I've ultimately decided that I did not, 13 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: and it made me sad. But is it more sad 14 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: to have one or to not have one? You tell me, Yeah, 15 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 1: it's a It's a question that I think depends on 16 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: people's perspective. Earlier, before he went on the air, we 17 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: were asking Paul whether he had an imaginary friend, and 18 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 1: he he told us that by the time he growing 19 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: up realized what that concept was, maybe he had already 20 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: sort of missed the window and realized that you know, 21 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: there was a difference between what is real and what 22 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: is imagined. And did you know anybody who said they 23 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: had an imaginary friend? I knew some people when I 24 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 1: was you know, my younger days, who said that they 25 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 1: knew someone, and sometimes it was uncreative. I grew up 26 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: in preschool there was a kid who had an imaginary friend. 27 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: You know. His name was Ethan. That's just not very 28 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: You know what happened to like Admiral squack in tops? Yeah? 29 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: What was the one from inside out? Mm hmm, I 30 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: don't remember. I think mainly have dropped dead Fred. Oh, 31 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: that was a good Now the one from inside I 32 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,519 Speaker 1: was bing Bong Um and he's like a magical elephants 33 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,119 Speaker 1: and it is one of the most heart wrenching sequences 34 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: and any film, animated or otherwise. And I will stand 35 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 1: by that to my dying breath. When Bing Bong something 36 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: happens to Bing Bong just put it that way. Has 37 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: to do with growing up. Oh gosh. Yes, And some 38 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: of this episode touches upon the very same rites of passage. 39 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: We could call them today, friends and neighbors, imaginary friends, 40 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: those non corporeal, non physical associates, confidence family members, loved 41 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: by children across the world and throughout the ages or 42 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: often than not, they're regarded as a phase of sorts. Right, yeah, 43 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 1: it's true. Um, so today we're here to work out 44 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 1: exactly what it means when we say imaginary friend, Matt, 45 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:56,239 Speaker 1: what do you think? Matt says that. According to developmental 46 00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 1: psychologist Tracy Gleeson, Uh, it is tough to predict or 47 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: even measure quantify what a child will actually say. Um, 48 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 1: when asked this question, what is your imaginary friend? We've 49 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: said do you have an imaginary companion? And they respond 50 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: that sounds awesome, So they go, yes, yes, of course 51 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: I do. That's like me, I wish I did. Sure, 52 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: I don't think I did, but I you know, I 53 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 1: would like to have had that, And they begin to improvise. 54 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 1: Maybe I wasn't creative enough as a child. Don't beat 55 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: yourself up. But it's a great point. They will begin 56 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: to confirm what they want to have. True, guess I 57 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: do have a friend. His name is Ethan. He wears 58 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: a red jumpsuit, you know. And then it's easy once 59 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: you have that basis to explore and create details. So 60 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: for psychologists, it's difficult to know whether a child is 61 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: improvising this as we said, or whether they're describing, you know, 62 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: someone as real as Matt standing here right, totally nodding. 63 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: He's nodding, And you make a great point, Matt. Psychologists 64 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: divvy up the broad category of imaginary friends into two groups. 65 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: They're completely invisible pals and then they're personified objects. And 66 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 1: this is this is where we see stuff like a 67 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 1: favorite stuffed animal or the horror trope of the haunted doll. Well, 68 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: and sometimes don't those things merge? Couldn't you have an 69 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 1: imaginary friend that embodies said favorite stuffed toy totally? Right? 70 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: Like Ethan used to not have a home, but now 71 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: he lives inside this VHS cassette. I had this thing. 72 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: It was. His name was Teddy Ruxpan and he I 73 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: swear to you, he talked, and I've been familiar with 74 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 1: Teddy Roxman. Did you ever put a like a heavy 75 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 1: metal album or some underground hip hop into his cassette player? 76 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: Cassette player? Right, Well, I guess mine came with a 77 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: cassette player. But I don't want to ruin this for you. 78 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: Teddy Teddy was my pal. He probably still is, you know, 79 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 1: maybe he can maybe he can reach out to him. 80 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: They'll actually, I'm joking, But then you hear that the 81 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 1: new Teddy Ruxpan is like Internet connected and can like 82 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 1: pull phrases and stuff off the web. It's almost like 83 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: an Alexa in toy form. That's spooky cool. No, not cool. 84 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 1: Stop normalizing constant surveillance, right. According to Dr Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler, 85 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: an imaginary friend is a made up or unreal companion 86 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: that typically provides comfort or support to a child. When 87 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,359 Speaker 1: it's an invisible friend, they'll say something along the lines 88 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 1: of Annie is my pal. She goes everywhere with me, 89 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 1: and you can't see her, but I can see her. 90 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 1: And then there are also these imaginary friends that are 91 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: these personified objects, so to Noel's example, like a Teddy Ruxpan. 92 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: And according to Dr Ziegler, the relationship there is more 93 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: of a caretaking thing, like I am taking my stuffed 94 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 1: animal with me because they only like particular things and 95 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 1: only I know how to make these sandwiches for them 96 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: or put them to bed. It's like a way of 97 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: developing um qualities of nurturing. Maybe you know that's a 98 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 1: really good point. Yeah, And when Ziegler says, these can 99 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: be imaginary friends. It's it's exactly the way that you 100 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: just describe it and older assigning these animate qualities to 101 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 1: an object, right, And I'm no psychologist, but it occurs 102 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: to me that you know, um, young girls, and I'm 103 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:27,359 Speaker 1: you know, my my daughter is is a is a 104 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: young girl. Um, maybe focus a little more on that 105 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: nurturing lesson and the boys maybe are a little more 106 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: lighting and learning how to be more rough and tumble 107 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: and like, you know, fighting and stuff. And we have 108 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: to wonder how much of that is society, you know, 109 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: I'm sure it's like all society. It's just an observation, 110 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: totally totally off the cuff. But because we remember, you know, 111 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: I'd be very interested in the history of toys, uh, 112 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 1: to find who made the decision to call to call 113 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,359 Speaker 1: something an action figure. If it's for a boy and 114 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: a doll, if it's for a girl, you know, that's 115 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,679 Speaker 1: maybe a story for a different show, or a little 116 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: bit of an Edward Burnet show. So these objects aren't, 117 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: of course limited to things like dolls or stuffed animals. 118 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: There's an expert who says she once heard about a 119 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: child who formed get this a close relationship with a 120 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: can of tomato paste and separable bonds. Appealing looking can 121 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: I mean you're talking about the smaller ones. They that's 122 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: what I would want to be friends. The regular sized 123 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: ones just seemed too aggressive, So the smaller ones a 124 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: little more endearing anything to me? Yeah, it's cute. And 125 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: although there is some levity in this, it's also true 126 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: that imaginary friends are more common than we might wait 127 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: for it. Imagine, I know it's a rough one. Go on. Well, 128 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: approximately of American children between the ages of three and 129 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: six developed some sort of imaginary companion. And that's just 130 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: counting the ones that are invisible friends, totally non comporeal 131 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: entities that aren't tied to you know, a ruck, spin 132 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: or a a boot. I don't know why. That's the 133 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: only other example. I had a boot, Yeah, like like 134 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: the way Canadians say about oh no, no, like a shoe. Yes, 135 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: there are other studies to Nolan. They argue that more 136 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: broad investigation reveals over fifty percent of children have had 137 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: some sort of imaginary friend in their childhood. And that's 138 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: a little that's a little difficult for me because you 139 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: and Paul and Matt and I don't, you know, we 140 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: we can maybe recall wanting to have an imaginary friend. 141 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: But I unless something traumatic happened and we've blocked it out, 142 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like any of us made the leap, 143 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: So I wonder how they're defining it there. And often 144 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,679 Speaker 1: it's an important to note. Often these imaginary friends are 145 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: not crucial to a child's social sphere. You know, um, 146 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: Professor Lizard is cool, right, but Professor Lizard isn't around 147 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: all the time. Professor Lizard is cold blooded. That's true, 148 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: literally true. But the child will have other real life friends. 149 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 1: And you know, in Hollywood, because we talked about pop 150 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: culture and how it applies to stuff on this show. Right, 151 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 1: in Hollywood, imaginary friends are often portrayed as a sign 152 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: of a personality disorder or a horror trope, or even 153 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: mental illness. Yeah, like in a Beautiful Mind? Is that? 154 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: Can I spoil a beautiful mind? Yeah? Go for it. 155 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: He has an imaginary friend that you think is real 156 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: and then spoiler alert, turns out it's all in his 157 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: beautiful mind. Oh wow, I still haven't seen it. It's one. Sorry, No, 158 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,199 Speaker 1: don't apologize. I'll still watch it. I love I think 159 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: the statute of limitations. It's at least five years old now. 160 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: It's about a you know, a brilliant mathematician and who 161 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: um struggles with mental illness and it is personified in 162 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 1: this character who you meet and then find out, you know, 163 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: with the twist that that he's not he's not real 164 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: or like a fight club kind of situation, kind of 165 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: spoil fight club for everybody. I think I I think 166 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: that's well past the statue, just say that, the whole 167 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: multiple personality thing, and it has become kind of a 168 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: toxic trope in that it's a little bit clich and 169 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: lazy writing in a lot of ways, you know, and 170 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 1: in a way without actually exploring someone struggle, um, you know, 171 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: in a character driven way. It's more and like this 172 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 1: kind of this Shamalonian twist that's sort of been done 173 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: to death. Yeah, Luke, what I can plot? Right? We 174 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: we spent so long wondering whether we could make a 175 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 1: plot twist that we never asked ourselves whether we should. 176 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: And thankfully, in real life this is not the case. 177 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: Imaginary friends experts find are potentially beneficial to a kid's 178 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 1: mental health. According to family therapist, imaginary friends or often 179 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 1: found amongst children who are well adjusted socially even prone 180 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: to smiling and laughing slightly more than their peers, which 181 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: I note, I know could sound kindness sinister, because now 182 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 1: we all have the picture of you know, little Lisa 183 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: or little Bart just sitting by themselves in a classroom 184 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: and occasionally going well, what's the difference between having an 185 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: imaginary friend and just having an imagination? That's true, right? 186 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 1: Is it? Is it a symptom there? Because we know 187 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: that this occurs with children most often, right, just like 188 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: your example from inside out. At some point, children typically 189 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: grow out of and away from the imaginary child phase, 190 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: and around the age of seven, the imaginary friend either 191 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: goes away, might stick around a little bit longer. But 192 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: in some cases, these invisible friends or again objects imbued 193 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: with personality, follow someone into adulthood. I'm sorry, Matt, what Yeah, totally, 194 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: And we'll be back after a word from our sponsor. 195 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,359 Speaker 1: So the earlier question, what's the difference between an imaginary 196 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: friend and just having an imagination or just imbuing uh? 197 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: Your your playthings with personality? You know, like I definitely 198 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: played with action figures and there we go again, and 199 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: then dolls whatever what have you, and you know, I 200 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: would have them talk to each other. I would um 201 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: pretend to that what I was doing was in some 202 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: way and you had a real outcome or whatever. How 203 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: you know is imaginary friends specifically? One? Can you have 204 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 1: a stable of them? Like I don't know? Yeah? And 205 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: then you know, Lest we be too quick to judge people, 206 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:47,119 Speaker 1: we have to ask ourselves who among us has imbued 207 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: some sort of personality into a common everyday object. People 208 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: name their cars, right, I used to do it with spoons. 209 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 1: Used to do it with spoons, No kidding? What could 210 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: you tell me about one? It was? It was Ethan, 211 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:05,959 Speaker 1: Ethan the spoon in its red jumper. Yes, so we 212 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: often ask ourselves whether an imaginary friend is a form 213 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:16,079 Speaker 1: of hallucination. Right, But as it turns out, this isn't 214 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 1: the case. Experts argue instead the perceived beings of vivid 215 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: fantasy and it helps the child address emotional concerns or 216 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: pursue play, practice sympathy, and most importantly, model later social behaviors. 217 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,439 Speaker 1: And we have a quote about this from Ellen Giralda. 218 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: That's right. She is a professor of Child and adolescent 219 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 1: psychiatry at Imperial College, London UM and she says they 220 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: do not have the actual perceptual experience of seeing and hearing. 221 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: Another key difference, she says, is that quote hallucinations feel 222 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: imposed and children cannot exercise a direct control over them. 223 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: This came from the Guardian, Okay, So in that case, 224 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: it means that if we had an imaginary friend who 225 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: you know, Professor Lizard, right, you could interact with Professor Lizard. 226 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: But you could also escape Professor Lizard if you wanted 227 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 1: to shut it off. It's like a switch. And you know, 228 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: people that suffer from genuine hallucinations, there is no escape, 229 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: and they require medication to make them go away. You know, 230 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: Sedation or other psychoactive drugs that have be prescribed to 231 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: deal with these hallucinations can be symptoms of serious mental illness. Yeah. Absolutely. 232 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: And the strange thing is that here that hallucinations do 233 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:44,359 Speaker 1: appear to be, let's say, not common, but less uncommon 234 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: than one might think. Recent studies pointing out some surprising 235 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: statistics about how common hallucinations can be. One study in 236 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: the United Kingdom found that almost two thirds of children 237 00:14:55,960 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 1: reported having at least one quote psychotic like experience in 238 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: their lives. And that's a category that also includes unshiftable, 239 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: unrealistic beliefs and fears. You know, I can't go into 240 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: the closet ever, I can't go under the bed, or 241 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: the blender is evil. Yeah I made up that last one, 242 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: but I'm sure it happened to someone. So when you 243 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: focus purely on hallucinations, a review of the research out 244 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: there found that seventeen percent of nine to twelve year 245 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: olds have these experiences at any given time. Um. The 246 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: number roughly gets cut in half with teenagers and then 247 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: drops again in adults. And it's interesting because nine to 248 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: twelve is maybe a little bit older in terms of 249 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: what we would expect to encounter regarding an imaginary friends. 250 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: So again we see that hallucinations are different. And the 251 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: research on this is is very tricky, Not quite as 252 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: tricky as Shamalan plot twists, but still tricky all the same, 253 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: since this research tends to focus on experiences that are 254 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: selected because they can appear in mental health problems and adults, 255 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: such as, for instance, hearing voices right, which has been 256 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: the subject of a lot of investigation in the past, right, 257 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: which hunts even I mean, like you know, it being 258 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: a sign of possession or something like that. You know 259 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:24,239 Speaker 1: very outdated notions of um some sort of demonic malevolent 260 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 1: force at work right, right, or a divine supernatural force 261 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: such as Joan of art claiming to hear voices yea, 262 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: as it ultimately resulted in the same outcome though didn't it. 263 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: It's true, It's true, but does mean that she was, 264 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: you know, vilified for having this because she claimed to 265 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: know things that only high priests should know, like someone 266 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: very high up in in the religious order, right, especially 267 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: when this was in a religion that required uh intercession, 268 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: right and wherein somebody could not speak directly to a 269 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 1: god needed a liaison in the form of someone who 270 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: was learned and had the the proper pedigree exactly that communication, 271 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 1: which I still just find funny. But your your point 272 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: remains there when when we say, when we're looking at 273 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: this research, we have to remember that these things that 274 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: could also be pained as mental health issues are only 275 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 1: a small part of the possible range of hallucinations, which 276 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 1: means the figures that No quoted earlier are likely to 277 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 1: be a lower conservative estimate. And it's true that in 278 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: rare cases medical problems could be the cause. Epilepsy can 279 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 1: cause hallucinations. How what's the longest time you've ever stayed 280 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:41,439 Speaker 1: awake that you remember. Oh, no, I'm a sleeper. I 281 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:43,919 Speaker 1: mean you know, I stayed up all night once when 282 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: I was a kid. I'm kidding. No, no, no no, no, 283 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 1: later than you know, five in the morning, and then 284 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 1: I slept most of the day. Probably I have experimented 285 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: in the past, pushing myself to see how long I 286 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 1: can stay awake. Uh, And at a certain point, yeah, 287 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: reality gets fuzzy, the edges blur. I would like to 288 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: encounter you in one of these experimental places. I hear 289 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 1: them a lot of fun, bet, but but I don't 290 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 1: remember quite a bit of it. Luckily, those severe psychoses 291 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: other medical conditions, represented perhaps by diagnoses such as schizophrenia. Luckily, 292 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: they're extremely rare in young children. People aren't completely sure 293 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: why this happens, but it's winning a brutal and terrible 294 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: lottery for a young child to exhibit those sorts of uh, 295 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,479 Speaker 1: those sorts of conditions. But of course when they occur, 296 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: they can be striking and terrifying. And this leads us 297 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: to a question for today's episode, or an interesting twist, 298 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: because you see, some people believe friends and neighbors that 299 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 1: there is more to the story. What if imaginary friends 300 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: and other non corporeal, nonphysical, perceived entities are not just 301 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: make believe models for addressing emotions and social behavior. What 302 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 1: if they're not hallucinations brought about by stress or some 303 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: sort of medical condition. What if these largely non physical 304 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 1: beings are real? Yeah? I don't know, Ben, You want 305 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:25,919 Speaker 1: to get crazy, Here's where it gets crazy. Research on 306 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 1: the subject is surprisingly sparse, but it's safe to say 307 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: that for many children or even adults experiencing this phenomenon, 308 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: imaginary friends are to some degree real, and the people 309 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: who believe there's more to the story will typically argue 310 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 1: something along these lines. One of the first would be 311 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 1: allegations of psychic powers. This is one of those very 312 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: popular tropes in fiction, and might be familiar with it 313 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: from stories like The Shining. You know, let's go ahead 314 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,400 Speaker 1: and spoil the Shining. Remember when the little Torrents kid 315 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: has always going rat wrap. It's not really a spoiler, 316 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,679 Speaker 1: is it. I hope not everybody knows that. You know, 317 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: somebody might if if that's a spoiler for the Shining, 318 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: then they probably don't know what the Shining is to 319 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: begin with. Ye that is uh, that is his imaginary friend. 320 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: It's Tony And in the book something comes up in 321 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: the movie, but he says he lives inside his mouth, 322 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: and in the movie he uses his finger to represents 323 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 1: him talking, and in the book someone correct me on this. 324 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: In the book, I believe it's implied that the imaginary 325 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:38,919 Speaker 1: friend is actually Danny Torrence from the future or something 326 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: talking to himself. I'm not clear, it's been years since 327 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:45,679 Speaker 1: I read it, but that's an example of a supposedly 328 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 1: imaginary friend being a real, independent, separate entity, despite the 329 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: fact he lives in his mouth. I'm glad you pointed 330 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,439 Speaker 1: that out. And then, of course there's the excellent, the 331 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: superb Cindy Lauper Jeff gold Bloom vehicle for the lad eighties. 332 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: The eighties, I want to say, Vibes. I do not 333 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:11,120 Speaker 1: know Vibes Ben Vibes. Vibes is a terrible film, Okay, So, 334 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: just to set the stage, there is this group of 335 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: people with some sort of differing specialization as far as 336 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: psychic powers go. Jeff Goldbloom plays one of the main 337 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: characters who has psychometry, which means he touches things and 338 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 1: he's able to know stuff about them, And yes, before 339 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: you ask, he is just being Jeff Goldblum. So it's 340 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: you know, that's kind of all Jeff Goldblum ever does. Right. 341 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: I just want to say, he's not you know, he's 342 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 1: not doing a German accent or anything. I've yet to 343 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: see Jeff Goldblum play anything outside of just a Jeff 344 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: Goldblum type character. But what happens, advice? What are we 345 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: talking about here? What? How does the psychic powers enter 346 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 1: into this? Uh imaginary friend a phenomenon Cindy Lauper, the 347 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: romantic interest in the co lead has the ability to 348 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: no thing she would not normally know, stuff from the future, 349 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,719 Speaker 1: stuff that's happening far away because she has an imaginary friend. 350 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: And in this story, her imaginary friend that she kind 351 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 1: of grew up with or I think it happened after 352 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 1: an accident is actually a ghost, right. And that's that's 353 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: something we see so often in fiction, the idea that 354 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: someone with an imaginary friend is in fact mistaking their relationship. 355 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: They're not speaking with a figment of their own uh 356 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: younger in archetypes or subconscious, They're communicating with another worldly form. Yeah, 357 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: like the little Forrest Gump kid that's he's dead people. Yeah, yeah, 358 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna spoil that out. That's where I draw 359 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 1: the line. That's all that film maths. Yeah. You'll also find, 360 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: interestingly enough, outside the realm of fiction, you'll find a 361 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 1: wealth of anecdotes arguing this point of view. People claiming 362 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 1: that their kid from a very young age spoke to 363 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: a deceased relative or displayed knowledge of some event or 364 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,479 Speaker 1: skill or language it was impossible for them to know. 365 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: So what would some examples of these types of anecdotes be, 366 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: you mean, in terms of like malevolent forces at work? Sure, 367 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 1: just something you know, creepy, right, for people who believe 368 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: that they or their child has been in contact with 369 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: some sort of entity. Actually, we found a list of 370 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: some encounters I guess you could say of this variety. UM, 371 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: can't confirm that these are real or not, but some 372 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: of them really ring true and have a very sinister 373 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: vibe to them. And here's one that's titled evil is Coming. Um. 374 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 1: When my older daughter was two or three, she used 375 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: to have a couple of imaginary friends, Dodo and Deed. 376 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: They were typical imaginary friends. She would talk to them 377 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 1: and play with them and tell me about their lives. 378 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: Then one day she was about three, Um, she was 379 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: talking on her play phone. When I walked into the room, 380 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 1: she quote hung up her phone and said to me 381 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 1: with a completely flat, void and dead pan expression, the 382 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 1: evil is coming. I want to know more. That's I mean, 383 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: that sounds like a set up for a story, doesn't it. 384 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: You know? The thing is that in most cases you 385 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: can't really verify these reports there there what do you 386 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 1: call it? Creep creepy pasta? A little creepy pastas on us? Yeah, yeah, 387 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: because there's not there's not a clear attribution. They have 388 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 1: the tone of campfire stories. In some cases these were 389 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: found to be the ones that were actually investigated were 390 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:38,199 Speaker 1: found to be mistakes of an entirely understandable sort. You know, 391 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,360 Speaker 1: the kid heard something on television and repeated it, right, 392 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: isn't The thing about creepy pasta to the pasta comes 393 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 1: from the fact that it's paste. It's like cut and 394 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: pasted from somewhere. It implies that it was like it 395 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 1: existed in a real form, or like it was from 396 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 1: a blog or some like actual encounter, but you can't 397 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 1: really tell, right. Yeah, It's like many urban legends. It's 398 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: always a friend of a friend I met passed through 399 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 1: a town where there's a story that's real about a killer, 400 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: and sometimes those stories do turn out to have a 401 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: grain of truth that's sort of made a pearl of 402 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: wisdom in the oyster of legend Boy walked a long 403 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,880 Speaker 1: way for that comparison. But in many other cases they're 404 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: also found just to be hoaxes, trolling attempts, maybe just 405 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: uh an endeavor to disguise fiction as fact for an 406 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 1: added scare factor. But this leads us to another strange 407 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,880 Speaker 1: twist in the story, and we'll get to it after 408 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 1: a word from our sponsor. There's another aspect here that developed, 409 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: or we should say, encountered, a renaissance of sorts in 410 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 1: the digital age, and that's the idea that some imaginary 411 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,439 Speaker 1: friends might be what's called a tulpa. Yeah. I I 412 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:04,479 Speaker 1: only just discovered that recently in watching the new Twin Peaks. Uh, 413 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: the return um, it comes up a lot, and and 414 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: it's really almost impossible to spoil the new Twin Peaks. Uh. 415 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: There's one spoiler I could give for the original Twin Peaks, 416 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: which I will not to um. But the new one 417 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 1: is so dreamy and strange, and there are like, you know, 418 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 1: created entities that are kind of referred to as talpa, 419 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: but that they never actually call them then in the show, 420 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: but in people writing about it and Lynch talking about it, 421 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 1: that's what they are. They're sort of these like, um, 422 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: almost facsimiles of people that take their place in reality 423 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: and then but they're not actually them, and they're in 424 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: some way malevolent and and meant to do harm at 425 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: least in the world of Twin Peaks. Um. But that 426 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 1: is the first time I ever encountered that term. But 427 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 1: what let's talk more about what it means in in 428 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 1: uh In traditionally for sure. Yeah, the the term talpa 429 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: comes from a later Western at uptation of a much 430 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,159 Speaker 1: older concept of the mind made body where emanation body 431 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: also known as the tolku, the sprule pa, the narmita 432 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 1: and others, and these are found in Indian and Tibetan Buddhism. 433 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 1: Uh theosophists, the Westerners who adapted and someone say, appropriated 434 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 1: this idea. We're calling these things thought forms as early 435 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: as nineteen And the essential gist is this that if 436 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: you meditate, if you concretely visualize a entity, if you 437 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: spend enough mental energy imagining and picturing this thing, then 438 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:45,159 Speaker 1: it can become real and acquire an increasing degree of 439 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 1: sentience and agency. There's a Belgian French explorer named Alexandra 440 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 1: David Neil who said that once the tolpa is endowed 441 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,920 Speaker 1: with enough vitality to be capable of playing the part 442 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: of a real being, it tends to be itself from 443 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 1: its maker's control. And this, say Tibetan occultists, happens nearly mechanically, 444 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: just as a child when their body is completed and 445 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 1: able to live apart from the mother, leaves the womb. Well, 446 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 1: then I completely glossed over the fact that you too 447 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,719 Speaker 1: have seen Twin Peaks The Return. What did you think 448 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,360 Speaker 1: about the way this this concept plays into it um, 449 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 1: this idea of a manufactured on an effect simile of 450 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,640 Speaker 1: a person that exists in some other form. My favorite 451 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 1: part about the newest Twin Peaks series was reading the 452 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 1: reviewers increasingly surreal attempts to explain to themselves what was 453 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: going on. And you have to because there are times 454 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: where there's gorgeous cinematography. There's an obvious mythology and cosmology 455 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: at play here, but it has the logic of a dream, 456 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: you know, like, why are these why are these facsimiles? 457 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: And I appreciate that word these doppelgangers for lack of 458 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: a better term. Why are these inherently malevolent? Right? Why 459 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,959 Speaker 1: are they here just a mess stuff up? Do they 460 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: want to supplant the actual people? Right? That's that's a 461 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 1: common theme we see. But I do want to point 462 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: out one of the things I found the most interesting 463 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: is that, no, you're correct, they don't. Don't believe in 464 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: the story anybody actually calls anyone else at Tulpa. No, 465 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: they don't. But like I said, in reading about it, 466 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: and even in hearing, I think Lynch himself used that 467 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: word um, but especially referencing the character of Diane, who 468 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: in the first season, the first two seasons of Twin 469 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 1: Peaks you only ever experienced um in the form of 470 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: Agent Dale Cooper talking to his tape recorder. And in 471 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: the Return we get to meet Diane, who was played 472 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 1: beautifully by Laura Dern. But and this is a little 473 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: bit of spoilers for Twin Peaks Return, So I'm gonna 474 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: give you three five four, three two one five seconds. 475 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: That cool five years five seconds. The character that you 476 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: actually meet eat is a topa is a facsimile of 477 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: the real Diane. And you again, some of it's pretty 478 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: hard to wrap your head around, you she does, she 479 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: kind of disappears and then like there's a there's a 480 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: version of reality where Dale Cooper is with the real 481 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: Diane and then they end up going back in time 482 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 1: or something and they have they end up having a 483 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: tryst in a hotel room. But then they walk out 484 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: and there in another version of reality and that but 485 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: that's the real Diane. I think the tulpa Diane when 486 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: she whips out that gun and then she ultimately kind 487 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: of turns into smoke and a little gold ball. Yeah, 488 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: just bringing a bell. Yeah, this is it's a very 489 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: it's very strange um a strange interaction, especially when we 490 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: consider the symbolism of it and the the idea still 491 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: remains the same that a tulpa can be generated by 492 00:30:55,360 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: concentrated thought. Right, So for Alexandra David neil Uh, this 493 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 1: explorer believe that she had created a tulpa in get this, 494 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 1: though in the image of a friar tuck like monk, 495 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: which later developed a life all its own, and despite 496 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 1: its raucous um raucous Dionysian nature, it had to be destroyed, 497 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: And in her defense, Alexander David Neil does say that 498 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: this may have all been a hallucination. Yet she adds 499 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: other people saw this friar tuck tulpa too strange. No, um, 500 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 1: perhaps it's just a branch of spirituality that will be 501 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 1: relegated to history along with other, you know, somewhat pseudo 502 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: mystical movements of the time. But if we fast forward 503 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: to the modern day, we'll see that. The concept of 504 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 1: tulpas is mentioned in as we said earlier, twin Peaks. 505 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: It's also mentioned in The X Men and the comic 506 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: The x Men, It's mentioned in the novel It, and 507 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 1: perhaps most intriguingly, it's mentioned in forums on the Internet, 508 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: where people argue that they have either come into contact 509 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: with the tulpa or created their own. And they are serious, 510 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: they're not trolling, they're not joking. In two thousand and nine, 511 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 1: the subject appeared on the discussion boards of four Chan. 512 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 1: A couple of anonymous members started to experiment with creating tulpas. 513 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: That's right, uh. And then in twelve things took a 514 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: turn when adult fans of My Little Pony Friendship is magic. Um, 515 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: I count myself among them, not not in the same way. 516 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: My kid really likes the show. So you're talking about 517 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 1: brownies brownish, I'm not. I'm not a legit brownie though, 518 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: but um, these brownies um created a new forum on 519 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: Reddit and crafted tulpas based on their favorite characters from 520 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: this show. Ben, I need some more information here. How 521 00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: do you craft a tulpa on Reddit? Well, unread it, 522 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 1: this would just be where they talk about it, right, 523 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: But from what we understand, at least in the Buddhist tradition, 524 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: there are meditative techniques that are actually complex and demand 525 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 1: quite a bit of time. So we you know, we 526 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 1: can't assume that those same spiritual techniques are being applied 527 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: to this amalgamation of pop culture, right and the idea 528 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: of a created thing. But we do know that these 529 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: tubas are typically described in great detail, and there appear 530 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: to be relatively few commonalities. Right, So, for someone who 531 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: believes in non physical sentient entities, it's not like in 532 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: The Exorcist, where the eponymous exorcist actually says, don't believe anything. 533 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: It's not a different demon, it's not all these voices. 534 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: There's only one thing pretending to be many many other things. 535 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: To people who believe this, these are individuated, discrete entities, 536 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,239 Speaker 1: And at this point there's no proof that such an 537 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:15,280 Speaker 1: entity could exist, uh, something built entirely of energy or thought. 538 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:20,920 Speaker 1: And yes, yes, we know all matter is essentially just energy. 539 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 1: But then the question is are these adults maybe only 540 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: hearing themselves and translating it differently like in the bicameral 541 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: minds like that idea? What about reports of d MT 542 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,320 Speaker 1: machine elves? And that's the idea that when people ingest 543 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: certain hallucinogens they end up encountering these entities. I've heard 544 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 1: them called machine elves. And like you know, drug literature 545 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 1: circles circle people on arrowin nailed it. Yes absolutely, no, 546 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 1: um I I don't know about that. But what are these? 547 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 1: Are they like manifestations of thought that are given form 548 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 1: or are they right? Are they your own thoughts looking 549 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,839 Speaker 1: back at you? Or are you somehow in tune with 550 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,800 Speaker 1: an entity or entities that you can not usually see. 551 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: And this opens the door to a wealth of speculation, 552 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 1: also several layers of skepticism. I'm sure for many people listening, 553 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 1: but for people who believe that these non corporeal entities 554 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 1: can exist, what we what they typically present. His proof 555 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:42,360 Speaker 1: is the idea that these hallucinations all share certain common 556 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: traits regardless of who takes a certain drug win. So 557 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:48,839 Speaker 1: for people who believe it's d m T, they might 558 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: say that every d MT trip has the potential to 559 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,759 Speaker 1: obey the same plot points almost which is fascinating. But 560 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 1: you have to wonder is there a confirmation us there? 561 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 1: And it leads us to another bigger question. Is it 562 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 1: possible for a meme, an emotion, or an idea to 563 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: become sentient? Mm hmm, that's a I think that's spooky 564 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:14,839 Speaker 1: because I have a lot of weird ideas. I don't 565 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 1: know if I want them coming back. Yeah. I mean, 566 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,360 Speaker 1: isn't that just, you know, singularity in a different form 567 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: of singularity kind of? I don't know what's interesting. Yeah, 568 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: And this is a question that we want to uh 569 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 1: hear your opinion about. To conclude today's episode, we do 570 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 1: have to say whenever we address issues of mental health 571 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 1: or mental wellness, wants you to know that if you 572 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:44,719 Speaker 1: have concerns or worries, there are people waiting to help 573 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: you address those concerns, answer questions you're not alone. You 574 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 1: can call the SAMSA Treatment Referral helpline at one eight 575 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 1: seven seven seven to six four seven to seven. You 576 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,800 Speaker 1: can also visit mental health dot gov for a me 577 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 1: get assistance and if you want more information. And we 578 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,359 Speaker 1: talked about the top of the show. In terms of 579 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 1: imaginary friends and their effects on children and their development, 580 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 1: there is a group of researchers at the University of 581 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: Oregon um collectively working at a place called the Imagination 582 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:21,759 Speaker 1: Research Lab, and they pretty exclusively study that very thing. 583 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 1: From their website, it says they look into the development 584 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 1: of imagination and children and it's a relation to social understanding, creativity, 585 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: inhibitory control, and narrative skills, but specifically children's creation of 586 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 1: imaginary companions and the role they play in social and 587 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,399 Speaker 1: cognitive development. You can find links to their work at 588 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,800 Speaker 1: their site Imaginary Companions dot you or again dot E, 589 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: d U slash lab. It's fantastic and it's important work 590 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: because again, current research is relatively sparse. It's difficult to 591 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: understand the answers that young children would give in interviews. However, 592 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:03,359 Speaker 1: right now, it's like cologists who don't believe that these 593 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: are separate entities of any sort. I do believe that 594 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: there's a cover up or conspiracy of sorts, and it's 595 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,759 Speaker 1: an inner conspiracy and internal cover up. They believe that 596 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 1: imaginary friends seem to function at times as an emotional 597 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 1: stand in, a sort of mannequin personality upon which a 598 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 1: child could place and otherwise uncomfortable or difficult emotion. And 599 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:32,799 Speaker 1: this is a little bit cheeky. Several psychologists also argue 600 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 1: that children might foist agency for bad behavior upon this 601 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 1: other entity. I didn't decide to eat all the cookies. 602 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: Dr Pants smack bubble meant told me to do it, 603 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,800 Speaker 1: and then, well, you know, honey, dr pants back bubble 604 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,840 Speaker 1: ment is not real the way that you are. No, 605 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:54,760 Speaker 1: you don't understand, mom, She made me do it. So 606 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 1: you know it's not my fault that this bad thing happened. 607 00:38:58,320 --> 00:38:59,960 Speaker 1: I still that I still do that to this day. 608 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 1: So right, right, so Oddly enough, if there is a conspiracy, 609 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,920 Speaker 1: it may be simply children juveniles using the concept of 610 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 1: an imaginary entity to cover up or remove themselves from 611 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:16,800 Speaker 1: their own fears, emotions, or consequences of action. And again, 612 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,760 Speaker 1: the fortunate bottom line here is that for the vast 613 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:24,279 Speaker 1: majority of cases, it doesn't seem harmful to children at all, 614 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,840 Speaker 1: and we have to ask if we apply this same 615 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:31,440 Speaker 1: reasoning to adults, Well, if it's not harmful, is there 616 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,279 Speaker 1: a reason to ask people to stop? I mean, if 617 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,840 Speaker 1: it's making them happy, it's not hurting them or someone else, 618 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:41,120 Speaker 1: should they be allowed their imaginary companions? Yeah? I mean 619 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 1: if they're not the flavor of imaginary companion that allows 620 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,920 Speaker 1: them to write off any responsibility for their actions, that 621 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:50,760 Speaker 1: I say, a Okay, what do you think listeners? Um 622 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,319 Speaker 1: write us. You can find us on social media at 623 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:57,239 Speaker 1: Conspiracy Stuff Show on Instagram or just Conspiracy Stuff on 624 00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 1: Facebook and Twitter. And if you don't want to do 625 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:01,839 Speaker 1: any of that, you can write it's a good old 626 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:05,360 Speaker 1: fashioned email where we are conspiracy at how stuff works 627 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 1: dot com m