1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:22,276 Speaker 1: Bushkin Saint James Palace in London, down the street from 2 00:00:22,276 --> 00:00:26,236 Speaker 1: Buckingham Palace. It's the official residence of the British monarchy, 3 00:00:26,836 --> 00:00:30,276 Speaker 1: built in the fifteen thirties by Henry the Eighth. It's 4 00:00:30,316 --> 00:00:32,756 Speaker 1: not open to the public, but you can apply to 5 00:00:32,756 --> 00:00:36,076 Speaker 1: go inside, which I did not long ago. It's not 6 00:00:36,156 --> 00:00:39,076 Speaker 1: that hard. As a soldier with a machine gun standing 7 00:00:39,076 --> 00:00:41,836 Speaker 1: by a little cottage. He tells me to go inside, 8 00:00:42,116 --> 00:00:44,436 Speaker 1: and then a man named Desmond shaw Taylor comes and 9 00:00:44,476 --> 00:00:47,636 Speaker 1: gets me. He's the curator of the Royal Art Collection, 10 00:00:48,356 --> 00:00:52,356 Speaker 1: Early Middle aged distinguished, a kind of high end exuberance. 11 00:00:52,876 --> 00:00:55,316 Speaker 2: You know, look at that building now, it's coming missing. 12 00:00:54,996 --> 00:01:00,476 Speaker 1: A page, a nice jumble. Yes, I came here to 13 00:01:00,476 --> 00:01:03,236 Speaker 1: see a painting bought by Queen Victoria nearly one hundred 14 00:01:03,236 --> 00:01:10,916 Speaker 1: and fifty years ago. It's called the Roll Call. Inside 15 00:01:10,956 --> 00:01:16,556 Speaker 1: the palace there's red everywhere, Royal red, red carpets, red wallpaper. 16 00:01:17,076 --> 00:01:20,156 Speaker 1: All the trim is in gold. The rooms are massive 17 00:01:20,196 --> 00:01:23,756 Speaker 1: and almost entirely empty except for the art on the walls. 18 00:01:24,676 --> 00:01:29,236 Speaker 1: Enormous canvasses spanning many centuries everywhere, and in a kind 19 00:01:29,236 --> 00:01:32,476 Speaker 1: of hallway not far from the entrance there it is 20 00:01:33,036 --> 00:01:35,116 Speaker 1: Roll Call, eighteen seventy four. 21 00:01:36,076 --> 00:01:39,676 Speaker 2: The absolute point of the rocal is that it has 22 00:01:39,716 --> 00:01:43,196 Speaker 2: a single brilliant image idea. 23 00:01:43,756 --> 00:01:46,236 Speaker 1: The painting depicts a group of British soldiers in the 24 00:01:46,276 --> 00:01:49,676 Speaker 1: Crimean War, which is a war England and France fought 25 00:01:49,676 --> 00:01:53,236 Speaker 1: against Russia in the eighteen fifties. In Roll Call, there's 26 00:01:53,396 --> 00:01:56,356 Speaker 1: just been a battle and the soldiers are lining up 27 00:01:56,396 --> 00:01:59,156 Speaker 1: in the gray light of morning to be reviewed by 28 00:01:59,156 --> 00:02:04,596 Speaker 1: the commanding officer. We start talking about a particularly distinctive 29 00:02:04,596 --> 00:02:07,476 Speaker 1: figure in the middle of the painting. Desmond has a 30 00:02:07,476 --> 00:02:10,876 Speaker 1: flashlight in his hand because it's quite gloomy in the palace. 31 00:02:11,276 --> 00:02:15,476 Speaker 1: Of course, palaces are supposed to be gloomy. He shines 32 00:02:15,516 --> 00:02:17,276 Speaker 1: the light directly on the man's face. 33 00:02:17,636 --> 00:02:21,196 Speaker 2: That's a brave young man who manages to stand up brighton. 34 00:02:21,516 --> 00:02:26,356 Speaker 2: And this sort of encounter is suggestive of comradeship, isn't it. 35 00:02:28,876 --> 00:02:32,516 Speaker 1: Saint James Pallace has dozens of war paintings, Handsome generals 36 00:02:32,516 --> 00:02:38,636 Speaker 1: on white chargers, panoramic battle scenes, faceless soldiers in glistening uniforms. 37 00:02:38,916 --> 00:02:44,116 Speaker 1: They're almost cartoons. But in Roll Call the men are exhausted, wounded, 38 00:02:44,236 --> 00:02:46,116 Speaker 1: defiant but draggled. 39 00:02:46,476 --> 00:02:50,796 Speaker 2: It's real and they are standing in a line, but 40 00:02:50,916 --> 00:02:54,116 Speaker 2: they're not in a straight line, and they're not anonymous. Yes, 41 00:02:54,436 --> 00:02:58,276 Speaker 2: so it's got one fantastic idea foth. 42 00:03:02,636 --> 00:03:05,396 Speaker 1: My name is Malcolm Glabo. You're listening to the first 43 00:03:05,436 --> 00:03:16,836 Speaker 1: episode of my podcast, Revisionist History. Every week for the 44 00:03:16,836 --> 00:03:19,156 Speaker 1: next ten weeks, I'm going to take you back to 45 00:03:19,196 --> 00:03:22,636 Speaker 1: examine something that I think has been overlooked or misunderstood. 46 00:03:23,316 --> 00:03:25,396 Speaker 1: One week, I'm going to talk about a car crash 47 00:03:25,516 --> 00:03:28,276 Speaker 1: just outside of San Diego. Another week, I'm going to 48 00:03:28,316 --> 00:03:30,876 Speaker 1: take you back to a secret Pentagon project in Saigon. 49 00:03:32,516 --> 00:03:36,316 Speaker 1: The tagline of this show sometimes the past deserves a 50 00:03:36,356 --> 00:03:39,436 Speaker 1: second chance, and that really goes to the heart of it. 51 00:03:40,116 --> 00:03:42,396 Speaker 1: I think too often we make up our minds about 52 00:03:42,396 --> 00:03:45,156 Speaker 1: something that has happened, and then we move on without 53 00:03:45,156 --> 00:03:48,636 Speaker 1: pausing to ask, Wait a minute, is that actually what happened? 54 00:03:49,316 --> 00:04:02,716 Speaker 1: Do we really understand it? I'm starting with something very simple, 55 00:04:03,116 --> 00:04:07,276 Speaker 1: a painting the roll call all but Forgotten. Now, if 56 00:04:07,276 --> 00:04:09,436 Speaker 1: you want to see it before you listen to this story, 57 00:04:09,636 --> 00:04:12,676 Speaker 1: you can pause and go to Revisionististory dot com. But 58 00:04:12,756 --> 00:04:16,956 Speaker 1: in eighteen seventy four, when this painting became famous, something 59 00:04:17,116 --> 00:04:20,996 Speaker 1: extraordinary happened that I think is worth revisiting because it's 60 00:04:20,996 --> 00:04:23,196 Speaker 1: an issue that we deal with all the time today, 61 00:04:23,596 --> 00:04:26,876 Speaker 1: which is what it means to be the first, the 62 00:04:26,956 --> 00:04:34,396 Speaker 1: first outsider to enter a closed world. The art world 63 00:04:34,516 --> 00:04:37,596 Speaker 1: in England at that time is controlled by something called 64 00:04:37,596 --> 00:04:41,436 Speaker 1: the Royal Academy. It consists of forty artists and being 65 00:04:41,436 --> 00:04:44,596 Speaker 1: elected to the Royal Academy is the highest honor any 66 00:04:44,716 --> 00:04:48,596 Speaker 1: artist can get. It's like winning an Oscar. Membership makes 67 00:04:48,636 --> 00:04:51,836 Speaker 1: your reputation and makes it possible to become very wealthy 68 00:04:51,876 --> 00:04:55,116 Speaker 1: as an artist. And every year the Academy puts on 69 00:04:55,196 --> 00:04:59,596 Speaker 1: an art exhibition. Thousands of paintings are submitted, they choose 70 00:04:59,596 --> 00:05:03,076 Speaker 1: a select few and display them at Burlington House on Piccadilly. 71 00:05:03,596 --> 00:05:06,916 Speaker 1: Remember this is before movies and television and recorded music 72 00:05:07,196 --> 00:05:11,116 Speaker 1: painting is it. Hundreds of thousands of people come to 73 00:05:11,156 --> 00:05:15,316 Speaker 1: these shows and roll Call gets chosen for the Royal Academy, 74 00:05:15,476 --> 00:05:18,236 Speaker 1: and not just chosen, chosen in a way that makes 75 00:05:18,276 --> 00:05:21,956 Speaker 1: it a really big deal. First of all, where the 76 00:05:22,076 --> 00:05:24,836 Speaker 1: Academy hangs at painting on the wall matters a lot. 77 00:05:25,436 --> 00:05:27,236 Speaker 1: If they hang it way up near the ceiling, if 78 00:05:27,236 --> 00:05:30,756 Speaker 1: they sky it, that means your painting is considered second class. 79 00:05:31,476 --> 00:05:33,796 Speaker 1: If they hang it at eye level, what's called on 80 00:05:33,876 --> 00:05:37,836 Speaker 1: the line, that's fantastic. Roll Call is on the line. 81 00:05:41,156 --> 00:05:44,276 Speaker 1: Then there's where in Burlington House they put it. There's 82 00:05:44,316 --> 00:05:46,796 Speaker 1: a gallery in the back called the Lecture Room. The 83 00:05:46,876 --> 00:05:49,876 Speaker 1: lecture room is known as the black Hole. Being hung 84 00:05:49,916 --> 00:05:51,676 Speaker 1: in the black Hole was almost as bad as not 85 00:05:51,716 --> 00:05:54,396 Speaker 1: being hung at all. But if they hang at painting 86 00:05:54,436 --> 00:05:58,716 Speaker 1: near the front in gallery two, that's incredibly prestigious. So 87 00:05:58,836 --> 00:06:03,116 Speaker 1: where was roll Call hung Gallery two? Unbelievable? On the 88 00:06:03,196 --> 00:06:04,916 Speaker 1: line in Gallery. 89 00:06:04,516 --> 00:06:11,516 Speaker 3: Two I was reading about it creates an extraordinary sensation. Yes, 90 00:06:12,116 --> 00:06:15,996 Speaker 3: completely in an unusual way, even for that time. 91 00:06:16,436 --> 00:06:18,836 Speaker 1: The day the show opens, the crowds make a bee 92 00:06:18,836 --> 00:06:19,676 Speaker 1: line for Roll Call. 93 00:06:19,916 --> 00:06:21,916 Speaker 2: The crowds were so great that you had to have 94 00:06:22,276 --> 00:06:26,996 Speaker 2: basically we employ warden, but they're police to say you know, 95 00:06:27,116 --> 00:06:29,156 Speaker 2: they touch or yeah, move on. 96 00:06:29,716 --> 00:06:32,796 Speaker 1: The only contemporary equivalent I can think of is people 97 00:06:32,876 --> 00:06:35,836 Speaker 1: camping out in line for two days to buy Beyonce tickets, 98 00:06:36,356 --> 00:06:38,436 Speaker 1: or the kind of frenzy the Beatles faced when they 99 00:06:38,476 --> 00:06:42,076 Speaker 1: first came to America. Roll Call is the hit of 100 00:06:42,116 --> 00:06:45,796 Speaker 1: the Royal Academy show. After that, Roll Call goes in 101 00:06:45,836 --> 00:06:49,316 Speaker 1: a tour of England. In Newcastle, men walk up and 102 00:06:49,356 --> 00:06:52,996 Speaker 1: down the sidewalks with sandwich boards saying simply, the Role 103 00:06:53,076 --> 00:06:57,156 Speaker 1: Call is coming. In Liverpool, twenty thousand people go to 104 00:06:57,196 --> 00:07:00,556 Speaker 1: see it. In those days, prominent paintings were put on 105 00:07:00,636 --> 00:07:04,236 Speaker 1: little playing cards, and two hundred and fifty thousand cards 106 00:07:04,236 --> 00:07:06,756 Speaker 1: are sold with an image of Roll Call. A bidding 107 00:07:06,796 --> 00:07:10,716 Speaker 1: war breaks out among potential buyers. Only Queen Victoria, one 108 00:07:10,756 --> 00:07:13,996 Speaker 1: of the greatest art collectors of her day, decides she 109 00:07:14,356 --> 00:07:17,276 Speaker 1: absolutely has to have it, which is how it comes 110 00:07:17,276 --> 00:07:21,756 Speaker 1: to hang in Saint James's Palace. Desmond Shaw Taylor must 111 00:07:21,756 --> 00:07:24,676 Speaker 1: have seen Roll Call a thousand times, but as he 112 00:07:24,756 --> 00:07:28,476 Speaker 1: shines his flashlight over the artist's brushwork, it's like he's 113 00:07:28,476 --> 00:07:31,796 Speaker 1: seeing it for the first time. He's excited about every 114 00:07:31,876 --> 00:07:34,876 Speaker 1: little detail, even down to the soldier's shoes. 115 00:07:35,156 --> 00:07:38,836 Speaker 2: That's pretty fabulous, isn't it. It's always so difficult too, 116 00:07:40,676 --> 00:07:45,436 Speaker 2: and to paint nothing in particular happening without over doing it. 117 00:07:45,556 --> 00:07:48,076 Speaker 2: And if you just get one gray color and just 118 00:07:48,676 --> 00:07:51,636 Speaker 2: a little bit of unpicturing and just pick out fulls 119 00:07:51,676 --> 00:07:57,636 Speaker 2: of shoes, just very impressive. H I mean, i I'm 120 00:07:57,676 --> 00:07:58,556 Speaker 2: enjoying looking at this. 121 00:07:59,716 --> 00:08:02,996 Speaker 1: It's a remarkable story, but I've left out the most 122 00:08:02,996 --> 00:08:09,476 Speaker 1: remarkable fact of all. The artist, an unknown, more importantly woman. 123 00:08:09,996 --> 00:08:12,756 Speaker 1: At a time when the art world was overwhelmingly male, 124 00:08:13,676 --> 00:08:16,636 Speaker 1: British women in the nineteenth century weren't even allowed to 125 00:08:16,716 --> 00:08:20,796 Speaker 1: study fine art. It was a closed world. And suddenly, 126 00:08:20,836 --> 00:08:23,516 Speaker 1: in the middle of that closed world there enters a 127 00:08:23,556 --> 00:08:27,796 Speaker 1: striking young woman named Elizabeth Thompson, raised in Switzerland by 128 00:08:27,836 --> 00:08:32,236 Speaker 1: wealthy Bohemian parents, an outsider, and she breaks down the door. 129 00:08:36,356 --> 00:08:39,436 Speaker 1: I've been fascinated by the story of Elizabeth Thompson for years, 130 00:08:39,916 --> 00:08:43,156 Speaker 1: by roll Call, and more particularly by what happened to 131 00:08:43,196 --> 00:08:47,356 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Thompson after the stunning success of her painting. What 132 00:08:47,476 --> 00:08:51,836 Speaker 1: fascinates me is how her story is repeated over and 133 00:08:51,996 --> 00:08:56,156 Speaker 1: over again. Once you know about Elizabeth Thompson, you see 134 00:08:56,196 --> 00:09:04,036 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Thompson's everywhere. I don't know if you've ever heard 135 00:09:04,036 --> 00:09:07,036 Speaker 1: of Julia Gillard. She was the first woman to become 136 00:09:07,116 --> 00:09:10,396 Speaker 1: Prime Minister of Australia. He served from twenty ten to 137 00:09:10,436 --> 00:09:14,676 Speaker 1: twenty thirteen, and she had an incredibly tumultuous time in office. 138 00:09:15,316 --> 00:09:17,476 Speaker 1: Near the end of her tenure, she gave a famous 139 00:09:17,556 --> 00:09:20,636 Speaker 1: speech on the floor of the Australian Parliament. Here's the 140 00:09:20,636 --> 00:09:21,636 Speaker 1: part everyone noticed. 141 00:09:22,236 --> 00:09:25,596 Speaker 4: The Leader of the Opposition says that people who hold 142 00:09:25,676 --> 00:09:30,196 Speaker 4: sexist views and who are melogynists are not appropriate for 143 00:09:30,356 --> 00:09:33,156 Speaker 4: high office. Well, I hope the Leader of the Opposition 144 00:09:33,196 --> 00:09:35,996 Speaker 4: has got a piece of paper and he is writing 145 00:09:36,036 --> 00:09:39,316 Speaker 4: out his resignation, because if he wants to know what 146 00:09:39,436 --> 00:09:43,316 Speaker 4: misogyny looks like in modern Australia, he doesn't need a 147 00:09:43,436 --> 00:09:46,756 Speaker 4: motion in the House of Representatives. He needs a miro. 148 00:09:47,036 --> 00:09:48,316 Speaker 4: That's what he needs. 149 00:09:48,996 --> 00:09:51,556 Speaker 1: When I heard Julia Gillard give that speech, I thought 150 00:09:51,596 --> 00:09:55,436 Speaker 1: about Elizabeth Thompson because Gillard and Thompson were in the 151 00:09:55,516 --> 00:09:59,796 Speaker 1: same situation. Women dealing with the consequences are breaking down 152 00:09:59,836 --> 00:10:03,596 Speaker 1: the door. I also remember Elizabeth Thompson when I think 153 00:10:03,596 --> 00:10:10,356 Speaker 1: of Hillary Clinton. Theres an idea that I think helps 154 00:10:10,396 --> 00:10:14,316 Speaker 1: explain the phenomenon of Elizabeth Thompson and Julia Gillard. It's 155 00:10:14,356 --> 00:10:19,196 Speaker 1: called moral licensing. It's a fairly new concept in social psychology. 156 00:10:19,516 --> 00:10:21,436 Speaker 1: It was developed by a number of the best young 157 00:10:21,516 --> 00:10:25,316 Speaker 1: psychologists in the field, chief among them Daniel Efren, who 158 00:10:25,356 --> 00:10:29,116 Speaker 1: teaches at the London Business School. Here's the official definition 159 00:10:29,156 --> 00:10:33,396 Speaker 1: of moral licensing. Past good deeds can liberate individuals to 160 00:10:33,516 --> 00:10:38,636 Speaker 1: engage in behaviors that are immoral, unethical, or otherwise problematic, 161 00:10:39,076 --> 00:10:42,356 Speaker 1: behaviors that they would otherwise avoid for fear of feeling 162 00:10:42,716 --> 00:10:50,036 Speaker 1: or appearing immoral. When we do something good, in other words, 163 00:10:50,196 --> 00:10:54,036 Speaker 1: sometimes we then, on occasion, give ourselves permission to do 164 00:10:54,076 --> 00:10:58,716 Speaker 1: something bad. One of Efron's first experiments in moral licensing 165 00:10:58,836 --> 00:11:02,516 Speaker 1: was in two thousand and nine. He surveys people who 166 00:11:02,596 --> 00:11:06,476 Speaker 1: publicly self identify as supporters of Barack Obama for president, 167 00:11:07,316 --> 00:11:09,796 Speaker 1: and what he finds is that supporting a black politician 168 00:11:10,156 --> 00:11:14,076 Speaker 1: doesn't always signal that you're a racially open person who 169 00:11:14,116 --> 00:11:17,076 Speaker 1: is inclined to be progressive in other areas. It can 170 00:11:17,116 --> 00:11:20,396 Speaker 1: also have the opposite effect. It can free you up 171 00:11:20,436 --> 00:11:23,476 Speaker 1: to go back to your old racist ways because you've 172 00:11:23,516 --> 00:11:25,636 Speaker 1: proven to the world what a good person you are. 173 00:11:26,676 --> 00:11:29,916 Speaker 1: And that's what he discovers. A significant chunk of the 174 00:11:29,956 --> 00:11:33,796 Speaker 1: people who supported Barack Obama were then more likely, at 175 00:11:33,876 --> 00:11:37,236 Speaker 1: least in the experiment, to express racially questionable opinions. 176 00:11:39,716 --> 00:11:44,236 Speaker 5: I was taken by this finding that people appear to 177 00:11:44,276 --> 00:11:48,596 Speaker 5: be able to license themselves based on pretty paltry virtues. 178 00:11:49,076 --> 00:11:51,676 Speaker 1: I met Efren in his office in London, up in 179 00:11:51,676 --> 00:11:55,076 Speaker 1: near Regent's Park. I asked him why a little egalitarian 180 00:11:55,116 --> 00:11:59,276 Speaker 1: behavior doesn't lead to more egalitarian behavior. Why don't good 181 00:11:59,316 --> 00:12:01,316 Speaker 1: deeds just lead to more good deeds? 182 00:12:01,596 --> 00:12:05,676 Speaker 5: So your question is about when does evidence that I'm 183 00:12:05,756 --> 00:12:11,236 Speaker 5: virtuous lead to more virtuous behavior versus when does evidence 184 00:12:11,236 --> 00:12:14,876 Speaker 5: a virtue lead to less virtuous behavior? When does doing 185 00:12:14,916 --> 00:12:17,076 Speaker 5: good lead to doing bad? And when is doing good 186 00:12:17,156 --> 00:12:19,636 Speaker 5: lead to doing more good? This is the million dollar 187 00:12:19,796 --> 00:12:22,916 Speaker 5: question in this literature, and it's been a puzzle. 188 00:12:23,436 --> 00:12:25,956 Speaker 1: All we know is that human beings go both ways 189 00:12:26,716 --> 00:12:30,356 Speaker 1: after a good deed, They sometimes follow a virtuous trajectory 190 00:12:31,036 --> 00:12:34,916 Speaker 1: and sometimes they don't. There's what happens after Jackie Robinson 191 00:12:34,956 --> 00:12:38,076 Speaker 1: broke the color line in nineteen forty seven becomes the 192 00:12:38,116 --> 00:12:42,356 Speaker 1: first ever black professional baseball player. Within five years there 193 00:12:42,396 --> 00:12:44,716 Speaker 1: are one hundred and fifty black ball players in the 194 00:12:44,756 --> 00:12:48,276 Speaker 1: major leagues. I think that's what we expect. It fits 195 00:12:48,316 --> 00:12:52,196 Speaker 1: our romantic notions of progress. The door opens for one person, 196 00:12:52,516 --> 00:12:55,676 Speaker 1: and soon it opens for everyone. But what we have 197 00:12:55,756 --> 00:12:58,996 Speaker 1: to understand is that a lot of times the opposite happens. 198 00:12:59,556 --> 00:13:02,316 Speaker 1: The door opens for one person and they're the only 199 00:13:02,356 --> 00:13:05,196 Speaker 1: one to slip in those who open the door then 200 00:13:05,236 --> 00:13:08,436 Speaker 1: feel free to close it again for everybody else. A 201 00:13:08,476 --> 00:13:11,916 Speaker 1: couple years ago, the Israeli author Almost Ilan wrote a 202 00:13:11,996 --> 00:13:14,196 Speaker 1: history of the Jews in Germany called The Pity of 203 00:13:14,196 --> 00:13:18,236 Speaker 1: It All. It's a fascinating book for precisely this reason, 204 00:13:18,876 --> 00:13:22,036 Speaker 1: because what Ilan is interested in is the great paradox 205 00:13:22,076 --> 00:13:25,116 Speaker 1: of Germany's history with the Jews. Here we have a 206 00:13:25,156 --> 00:13:29,716 Speaker 1: country that committed the greatest historical atrocity against the Jewish people. 207 00:13:30,356 --> 00:13:33,116 Speaker 1: Yet if you take the long view, as Alan does, 208 00:13:33,316 --> 00:13:36,676 Speaker 1: you see that time and time again, German culture welcomed Jews, 209 00:13:37,036 --> 00:13:42,356 Speaker 1: or at least welcomed some Jews. From the seventeenth century onwards, 210 00:13:42,476 --> 00:13:44,836 Speaker 1: Many German states had a tradition of what were called 211 00:13:44,956 --> 00:13:48,556 Speaker 1: court Jews. Most Jews were banned from living in major 212 00:13:48,556 --> 00:13:51,956 Speaker 1: German cities. There were severe restrictions on what they could do, 213 00:13:52,596 --> 00:13:55,876 Speaker 1: but simultaneously there was a group of protected Jews who 214 00:13:55,916 --> 00:13:58,596 Speaker 1: were allowed to live and work within the city walls. 215 00:13:59,556 --> 00:14:02,716 Speaker 1: In the seventeen thirties, the King of Prussia becomes alarmed 216 00:14:02,716 --> 00:14:05,356 Speaker 1: by the number of Jews in Prussia, likening them to 217 00:14:05,516 --> 00:14:09,596 Speaker 1: locusts bringing ruin to Christians, so he banished wish them 218 00:14:09,636 --> 00:14:12,516 Speaker 1: from Berlin, but not all of them. He kicks out 219 00:14:12,516 --> 00:14:15,196 Speaker 1: one hundred and forty families, and he keeps one hundred 220 00:14:15,196 --> 00:14:19,196 Speaker 1: and twenty. That pattern is repeated over and again in 221 00:14:19,236 --> 00:14:23,516 Speaker 1: the German speaking world. In the eighteenth century, the philosopher 222 00:14:23,636 --> 00:14:26,876 Speaker 1: Moses Mendelssohn, who is Jewish, was considered one of the 223 00:14:26,916 --> 00:14:30,756 Speaker 1: most brilliant men in Europe. He lives in Berlin, and 224 00:14:30,836 --> 00:14:34,076 Speaker 1: people come from far and wide to visit him. How 225 00:14:34,116 --> 00:14:38,396 Speaker 1: does he stay in Berlin? The King grants him exceptional status. 226 00:14:38,556 --> 00:14:41,356 Speaker 1: That is to say, and these are Amasalon's words here, 227 00:14:41,676 --> 00:14:46,836 Speaker 1: Mendelssohn is the Unjewish jew. The same happens one hundred 228 00:14:46,916 --> 00:14:50,676 Speaker 1: years later with Bertold Auerbach. He's Jewish and he's the 229 00:14:50,716 --> 00:14:53,876 Speaker 1: most widely read German novelist of his day. He's called 230 00:14:53,916 --> 00:14:56,916 Speaker 1: the German Dickens. This is now at a time of 231 00:14:57,276 --> 00:15:02,316 Speaker 1: virulent antisemitism throughout Germany, but Bertold Auerbach is somehow immune 232 00:15:02,396 --> 00:15:08,156 Speaker 1: from that prejudice. Richard Wagner Wagner, the notorious anti Semite, 233 00:15:08,476 --> 00:15:12,556 Speaker 1: loves ours and calls him a man rooted in German life. 234 00:15:12,876 --> 00:15:16,276 Speaker 1: One of the brothers grim thanks Auerbach for curing him 235 00:15:16,276 --> 00:15:20,116 Speaker 1: of prejudice. The Germans hate Jews as a rule, but 236 00:15:20,236 --> 00:15:23,516 Speaker 1: they love Aerbach. What's going on here? It sounds like 237 00:15:23,556 --> 00:15:27,876 Speaker 1: a contradiction, it's not. It's just textbook moral licensing. The 238 00:15:27,956 --> 00:15:31,316 Speaker 1: Germans love Berthold Auerbach, and because they think they have 239 00:15:31,436 --> 00:15:35,516 Speaker 1: demonstrated their open mindedness by loving this one Jew, they 240 00:15:35,516 --> 00:15:38,156 Speaker 1: feel free to act in the most despicable way to 241 00:15:38,236 --> 00:15:42,396 Speaker 1: other Jews. You open the door to one outsider, and 242 00:15:42,436 --> 00:15:46,236 Speaker 1: that gives you permission to close the door to others. 243 00:15:53,276 --> 00:15:56,356 Speaker 1: After seeing roll Call at Saint James's Palace, I went 244 00:15:56,396 --> 00:15:58,996 Speaker 1: to the tape and sat on a little bench outside 245 00:15:59,036 --> 00:16:03,756 Speaker 1: the Turner Gallery with Paul Usherwood. Usherwood is an art 246 00:16:03,836 --> 00:16:07,756 Speaker 1: historian who has written extensively on Elizabeth Thompson. In fact, 247 00:16:07,956 --> 00:16:10,796 Speaker 1: I first learned about Liz with Thompson because they stumbled 248 00:16:10,796 --> 00:16:14,516 Speaker 1: across an absolutely brilliant article by Usherwood in the Woman's 249 00:16:14,596 --> 00:16:18,556 Speaker 1: Art Journal. It was called Elizabeth Thompson Butler, a case 250 00:16:18,596 --> 00:16:23,036 Speaker 1: of tokenism. Usherwood is wispy and tweedy in the best 251 00:16:23,076 --> 00:16:26,876 Speaker 1: possible English way. I imagined that after our chat he 252 00:16:26,876 --> 00:16:29,396 Speaker 1: would go straight home, spend an hour in the garden, 253 00:16:29,676 --> 00:16:32,316 Speaker 1: then go for a brisk walk across a few soggy 254 00:16:32,316 --> 00:16:36,756 Speaker 1: fields through the dogs. Ushwood argues that in making sense 255 00:16:36,756 --> 00:16:39,996 Speaker 1: of what happened to Elizabeth Thompson, it's really important to 256 00:16:40,076 --> 00:16:43,436 Speaker 1: understand the role of the Royal Academy. They control the 257 00:16:43,556 --> 00:16:48,996 Speaker 1: art world at this point forty aloof dictatorial white men, as. 258 00:16:48,916 --> 00:16:53,156 Speaker 6: An institution that was just very very powerful and much 259 00:16:53,236 --> 00:16:58,956 Speaker 6: resented by people who weren't very very well by it. 260 00:16:59,236 --> 00:17:02,676 Speaker 1: Academy members gave their own pictures the best positions on 261 00:17:02,716 --> 00:17:06,396 Speaker 1: the walls of the annual exhibition. Meanwhile, they pretty much 262 00:17:06,436 --> 00:17:09,596 Speaker 1: ignored everyone else's art, including an eighteen six tventy four. 263 00:17:09,956 --> 00:17:11,836 Speaker 1: The Irwin roll call went up so. 264 00:17:11,956 --> 00:17:15,876 Speaker 6: That yeah, there were six thousands paintings which didn't mate 265 00:17:16,156 --> 00:17:18,316 Speaker 6: the expertise of thousands. 266 00:17:18,516 --> 00:17:20,956 Speaker 1: There's only one art show that matters in England, and 267 00:17:20,996 --> 00:17:23,716 Speaker 1: it's so small that thousands of artists are stuck on 268 00:17:23,756 --> 00:17:33,316 Speaker 1: the outside looking in. There's a revolution brewing. So along 269 00:17:33,356 --> 00:17:38,156 Speaker 1: comes Elizabeth Thompson, a woman, an outsider, with an absolutely 270 00:17:38,196 --> 00:17:41,516 Speaker 1: brilliant painting, and the Academy hangs it on the line 271 00:17:41,516 --> 00:17:44,916 Speaker 1: in Gallery two, and everyone thinks this is a sign 272 00:17:44,956 --> 00:17:48,316 Speaker 1: that the Academy is finally opening its doors to what 273 00:17:48,956 --> 00:17:52,476 Speaker 1: to the Holy Grail membership in the Royal Academy itself. 274 00:17:53,276 --> 00:17:56,636 Speaker 1: It seems destined to happen. One of the most prominent 275 00:17:56,756 --> 00:17:59,276 Speaker 1: art critics of the day writes in The Daily Telegraph 276 00:17:59,476 --> 00:18:02,276 Speaker 1: that role call success proves that, and I'm quoting here, 277 00:18:02,756 --> 00:18:07,876 Speaker 1: real genius has no insurmountable obstacles in the English art world. 278 00:18:10,356 --> 00:18:13,356 Speaker 1: In short order, Thompson is nominated for election to the 279 00:18:13,436 --> 00:18:16,956 Speaker 1: Royal Academy. She's one of the most famous artists in England. 280 00:18:17,516 --> 00:18:20,916 Speaker 1: She has a huge public following. Every artist in the 281 00:18:20,996 --> 00:18:25,516 Speaker 1: country is riveted by her candidacy. And what happens. She loses, 282 00:18:25,716 --> 00:18:28,836 Speaker 1: but by just two votes. It doesn't feel At the end, 283 00:18:29,436 --> 00:18:33,396 Speaker 1: everyone says, this is progress. Here we have a young artist, 284 00:18:33,516 --> 00:18:36,316 Speaker 1: still in her twenties, and on her first try she 285 00:18:36,396 --> 00:18:39,556 Speaker 1: comes within a hair's breadth of acceptance into the old 286 00:18:39,596 --> 00:18:42,876 Speaker 1: boys club. Everyone thinks that she's going to be a 287 00:18:42,956 --> 00:18:45,796 Speaker 1: lock for election the next time round. They look at 288 00:18:45,796 --> 00:18:54,116 Speaker 1: her and they say Elizabeth Thompson, pioneer. But then Thompson 289 00:18:54,156 --> 00:18:58,796 Speaker 1: submits another painting to the Academy, another brilliant painting called 290 00:18:58,876 --> 00:19:01,916 Speaker 1: Quatro Bras, a depiction of the Battle of Waterloo. 291 00:19:02,076 --> 00:19:05,956 Speaker 6: By that time, she's celebrity and has fantastic assistance from 292 00:19:05,996 --> 00:19:10,476 Speaker 6: the Niamators, I mean three hundred soldiers point operator, so 293 00:19:10,676 --> 00:19:11,796 Speaker 6: she could paint that picture. 294 00:19:12,196 --> 00:19:15,276 Speaker 1: This is in eighteen seventy five, the year after Roll 295 00:19:15,356 --> 00:19:18,276 Speaker 1: calls Triumph. So what happens to Quatrabra? 296 00:19:18,836 --> 00:19:21,316 Speaker 6: What they do is they stuff it away in an 297 00:19:21,356 --> 00:19:23,916 Speaker 6: obscure corner. Says quite hard. 298 00:19:23,876 --> 00:19:27,036 Speaker 1: Seas Thompson's new work is hung in the lecture room 299 00:19:27,316 --> 00:19:30,876 Speaker 1: at the back the black hole. And the black hole 300 00:19:30,956 --> 00:19:33,316 Speaker 1: is where her election to the Royal Academy also goes. 301 00:19:34,076 --> 00:19:36,876 Speaker 1: Remember she was within two votes of getting in, and 302 00:19:36,916 --> 00:19:39,316 Speaker 1: everybody said she's a lock for the next time around, 303 00:19:39,516 --> 00:19:42,876 Speaker 1: but she isn't. There is no next time around. Instead, 304 00:19:43,156 --> 00:19:47,876 Speaker 1: the male Academy members have these absurd internal conversations about 305 00:19:47,916 --> 00:19:50,316 Speaker 1: how it would work if a woman ever got elected. 306 00:19:50,596 --> 00:19:51,796 Speaker 1: What about the etiquette? 307 00:19:51,996 --> 00:19:55,436 Speaker 6: That's a banquet? How would that they arranged? Who would 308 00:19:55,596 --> 00:19:58,916 Speaker 6: bring in? Is the thing for the male academician to 309 00:19:59,236 --> 00:20:01,796 Speaker 6: escort a woman into the bank cred for? How would 310 00:20:01,796 --> 00:20:02,556 Speaker 6: that work with a woman? 311 00:20:02,956 --> 00:20:06,196 Speaker 1: They fussed about it. They tied themselves in knots at 312 00:20:06,196 --> 00:20:08,636 Speaker 1: the thought of a woman entering their club. So the 313 00:20:08,676 --> 00:20:12,196 Speaker 1: Academy members passed new regulations to limit the privileges of 314 00:20:12,316 --> 00:20:15,796 Speaker 1: any women whom might get elected in the future. Because 315 00:20:15,836 --> 00:20:19,076 Speaker 1: they've proven their bona fides, they hung rall call on 316 00:20:19,156 --> 00:20:21,916 Speaker 1: the line in Gallery two. Who can doubt how open 317 00:20:21,956 --> 00:20:24,996 Speaker 1: and progressive they are? Now they can go back to 318 00:20:25,076 --> 00:20:31,316 Speaker 1: the way they were. In eighteen eighty one, Elizabeth Thompson 319 00:20:31,316 --> 00:20:35,076 Speaker 1: paints what might be her most famous painting, Scotland Forever. 320 00:20:35,796 --> 00:20:38,276 Speaker 1: It's a thrilling depiction of a charge of the Scots 321 00:20:38,356 --> 00:20:42,396 Speaker 1: Grays at Waterloo in eighteen fifteen. Scotland Forever is never 322 00:20:42,436 --> 00:20:45,796 Speaker 1: shown at the Royal Academy, and Thompson doesn't even try 323 00:20:45,836 --> 00:20:48,516 Speaker 1: again to get elected. She can read the writing on 324 00:20:48,556 --> 00:20:52,036 Speaker 1: the wall. In fact, no woman would be elected to 325 00:20:52,036 --> 00:20:55,836 Speaker 1: the Royal Academy until nineteen thirty six, more than half 326 00:20:55,876 --> 00:21:01,476 Speaker 1: a century later. As for Thompson, she married an army 327 00:21:01,516 --> 00:21:05,196 Speaker 1: officer named William Butler. She changed her name. She raised 328 00:21:05,276 --> 00:21:08,876 Speaker 1: six children. Her career took a backseat to her husband's. 329 00:21:09,516 --> 00:21:12,356 Speaker 1: When he writes his memoirs, he doesn't say a word 330 00:21:12,396 --> 00:21:15,476 Speaker 1: about her, his own wife, one of the most famous 331 00:21:15,636 --> 00:21:16,756 Speaker 1: artists in England. 332 00:21:17,196 --> 00:21:20,996 Speaker 6: His autobiography four hundred and fifty five pages, she's not 333 00:21:21,116 --> 00:21:24,516 Speaker 6: mentioned in the index he mentions that he was married, 334 00:21:24,716 --> 00:21:27,796 Speaker 6: he mentions that he did have children, and that's it. 335 00:21:28,876 --> 00:21:31,796 Speaker 1: And when she writes her memoirs, she acts as if 336 00:21:31,796 --> 00:21:34,436 Speaker 1: the whole incident with her near election to the Royal 337 00:21:34,436 --> 00:21:38,516 Speaker 1: Academy never happened. Today people would write an entire book 338 00:21:38,556 --> 00:21:41,996 Speaker 1: about it. But she's been defeated and she knows it. 339 00:21:42,996 --> 00:21:46,436 Speaker 1: Here's all she says. As it turned out in eighteen 340 00:21:46,476 --> 00:21:49,916 Speaker 1: seventy nine, I lost my election by two votes. Only 341 00:21:50,516 --> 00:21:54,076 Speaker 1: since then, I think the door has been closed. And 342 00:21:54,156 --> 00:21:58,716 Speaker 1: wisely that's the part that always gets me. And wisely 343 00:21:59,476 --> 00:22:10,076 Speaker 1: she's given up. Remember how I'm mentioned that when I 344 00:22:10,156 --> 00:22:12,716 Speaker 1: saw a roll call, the first thing I thought about 345 00:22:12,756 --> 00:22:16,876 Speaker 1: was Julia Gillard, the former Prime Minister of Australia. That's 346 00:22:16,916 --> 00:22:21,516 Speaker 1: because it's the same story. Gillard's election was a milestone 347 00:22:21,556 --> 00:22:24,156 Speaker 1: in Australian history, the same way it would be for 348 00:22:24,196 --> 00:22:28,276 Speaker 1: any country. Australia had been an independent nation for more 349 00:22:28,316 --> 00:22:32,196 Speaker 1: than a century, one hundred and ten years of uninterrupted 350 00:22:32,276 --> 00:22:35,396 Speaker 1: male rule, and that came to an end in twenty 351 00:22:35,436 --> 00:22:42,676 Speaker 1: ten with this funny whip, smart tough woman. In former 352 00:22:42,756 --> 00:22:46,516 Speaker 1: British colonies like Australia, the representative of the British crown 353 00:22:46,596 --> 00:22:49,516 Speaker 1: is called the Governor General, and the Governor General is 354 00:22:49,556 --> 00:22:52,516 Speaker 1: the person who swears in the new Prime minister. When 355 00:22:52,556 --> 00:22:54,876 Speaker 1: Gillard stands up to take the oath of office, it's 356 00:22:54,916 --> 00:22:56,316 Speaker 1: a doubly incredible moment. 357 00:22:56,876 --> 00:22:59,756 Speaker 4: What made it loom large for me that day is 358 00:22:59,996 --> 00:23:02,916 Speaker 4: our governor General at that time was the first woman 359 00:23:02,956 --> 00:23:04,636 Speaker 4: to ever serve as Governor General. 360 00:23:04,836 --> 00:23:06,996 Speaker 1: This is Julia Gillard telling the story. 361 00:23:06,916 --> 00:23:10,836 Speaker 4: And I could see in her and in her eyes, 362 00:23:11,276 --> 00:23:16,916 Speaker 4: you know, this incredible shock or delight that she was 363 00:23:16,996 --> 00:23:19,476 Speaker 4: going to be the person to swear in the first 364 00:23:19,676 --> 00:23:25,836 Speaker 4: woman prime minister. I Silia Eileen Dillar Clelia firm and 365 00:23:25,996 --> 00:23:30,156 Speaker 4: declared that I will well and truly said the Commonwealth 366 00:23:30,196 --> 00:23:33,356 Speaker 4: of Australia. And you know, she subsequently said to me, look, 367 00:23:33,596 --> 00:23:35,436 Speaker 4: I didn't think i'd live to see it. I didn't 368 00:23:35,476 --> 00:23:37,396 Speaker 4: think i'd live to see the day our nation had 369 00:23:37,396 --> 00:23:38,636 Speaker 4: a female prime minister. 370 00:23:39,076 --> 00:23:42,356 Speaker 1: It's a big deal. And Gillard, like many at the time, 371 00:23:42,836 --> 00:23:47,436 Speaker 1: thinks that Australia has undergone a permanent transformation. And she 372 00:23:47,556 --> 00:23:50,516 Speaker 1: also thinks that after the novelty of her election passes, 373 00:23:50,956 --> 00:23:54,196 Speaker 1: she'll just be Prime Minister. Gillard, the fact of her 374 00:23:54,276 --> 00:23:57,556 Speaker 1: gender will become unremarkable, the way the fact of a 375 00:23:57,556 --> 00:24:00,036 Speaker 1: baseball player's race is now unremarkable. 376 00:24:00,836 --> 00:24:03,716 Speaker 4: If you'd asked me then that all would have played 377 00:24:03,756 --> 00:24:06,236 Speaker 4: itself out in the first few months. And then I thought, 378 00:24:06,316 --> 00:24:09,756 Speaker 4: sort of the political cycleod go back to normal. And 379 00:24:10,116 --> 00:24:13,956 Speaker 4: I made that judgment call spectacularly wrong. 380 00:24:14,356 --> 00:24:17,636 Speaker 1: When was the first moment that you realized you were wrong? 381 00:24:18,476 --> 00:24:20,756 Speaker 4: Oh, look, I don't think it was a you know, 382 00:24:20,796 --> 00:24:24,356 Speaker 4: it wasn't the thud of a penny dropping in my brain. 383 00:24:25,396 --> 00:24:30,436 Speaker 4: But it just became clearer and clearer, particularly by the 384 00:24:30,516 --> 00:24:34,476 Speaker 4: time we were in the government's second year and we 385 00:24:34,476 --> 00:24:39,756 Speaker 4: were putting a price on carbon and the campaigning against 386 00:24:39,796 --> 00:24:43,516 Speaker 4: that by the opposition and in the community was getting 387 00:24:44,476 --> 00:24:48,236 Speaker 4: hotter and shriller. It was in the course of that 388 00:24:48,356 --> 00:24:51,756 Speaker 4: the gendered stuff really started to show. 389 00:24:52,276 --> 00:24:53,116 Speaker 1: Things got ugly. 390 00:24:53,996 --> 00:25:01,476 Speaker 3: You're the people elected this money, soch get right down. 391 00:25:04,116 --> 00:25:08,036 Speaker 1: Her opponents would circulate lude sexual cartoons of her. She 392 00:25:08,076 --> 00:25:10,916 Speaker 1: would be referred to in the newspapers as Julia, as 393 00:25:10,956 --> 00:25:13,236 Speaker 1: if she was a reality TV star and not the 394 00:25:13,276 --> 00:25:16,436 Speaker 1: head of state. The media would constantly refer to the 395 00:25:16,436 --> 00:25:19,996 Speaker 1: outfit she wore, or how much cleavage she showed, or 396 00:25:19,996 --> 00:25:22,876 Speaker 1: the tone of her voice. The CEO of a major 397 00:25:22,916 --> 00:25:28,596 Speaker 1: Australian company publicly called her an unproductive old cow. One 398 00:25:28,636 --> 00:25:32,716 Speaker 1: restaurant offered on its menu Julia Gillard Kentucky fried quail, 399 00:25:33,236 --> 00:25:36,916 Speaker 1: small brass, huge thighs and a big red box. Was 400 00:25:36,956 --> 00:25:41,876 Speaker 1: there any particular moment or thing said that that hurts 401 00:25:41,916 --> 00:25:42,516 Speaker 1: you the most? 402 00:25:43,276 --> 00:25:45,756 Speaker 4: I mean, it's obviously not a good thing to look 403 00:25:45,796 --> 00:25:48,716 Speaker 4: out on a scene of protesters and see yourself described 404 00:25:48,756 --> 00:25:50,996 Speaker 4: as a bitch and a witch and things like that. 405 00:25:51,636 --> 00:25:55,236 Speaker 4: But for me, actually, the worst moment in my prime 406 00:25:55,236 --> 00:25:59,676 Speaker 4: ministership was not in and of itself a gendered remark, 407 00:25:59,836 --> 00:26:02,756 Speaker 4: but came from a shock jock. 408 00:26:03,156 --> 00:26:06,236 Speaker 1: She's talking about the Rush Limbar of Australia, a major 409 00:26:06,316 --> 00:26:10,156 Speaker 1: radio personality who hosts a fundraiser for the Conservative Party, 410 00:26:10,396 --> 00:26:12,396 Speaker 1: the other party, not Julia Gillards. 411 00:26:12,596 --> 00:26:16,596 Speaker 4: And I had recently lost my father. My father died 412 00:26:16,636 --> 00:26:19,636 Speaker 4: while I was Prime Minister. And he said to this 413 00:26:19,716 --> 00:26:23,116 Speaker 4: audience that my father had died of shame because he 414 00:26:23,196 --> 00:26:25,556 Speaker 4: was ashamed of me as prime minister. I mean that 415 00:26:26,116 --> 00:26:26,756 Speaker 4: was the worst. 416 00:26:27,276 --> 00:26:30,636 Speaker 1: Oh wow, yeah, yeah, that's appalling. 417 00:26:30,996 --> 00:26:34,636 Speaker 4: It is appalling, It is appalling, and you know it's 418 00:26:34,676 --> 00:26:36,876 Speaker 4: you don't expect to have to do that in your life, 419 00:26:36,916 --> 00:26:40,556 Speaker 4: and you don't expect that, you know, someone like my mother, 420 00:26:40,636 --> 00:26:46,196 Speaker 4: who's just a lovely woman and a great Australian citizen, 421 00:26:46,596 --> 00:26:50,156 Speaker 4: should have to tolerate that being said about the husband 422 00:26:50,196 --> 00:26:50,996 Speaker 4: she's just lost. 423 00:26:51,916 --> 00:26:54,996 Speaker 1: Why do you think that intelligent, educated members of a 424 00:26:55,036 --> 00:26:58,156 Speaker 1: progressive country feel they can get away with such vile 425 00:26:58,236 --> 00:27:02,476 Speaker 1: behavior because they've just elected a woman, they've proven their 426 00:27:02,516 --> 00:27:06,396 Speaker 1: progressive bona fides ending one hundred and ten years at patriarchy. 427 00:27:07,316 --> 00:27:10,396 Speaker 1: When the female governor generals swear in the female Prime minister, 428 00:27:10,836 --> 00:27:14,596 Speaker 1: Australia has a collective lump in its throat. But then 429 00:27:14,676 --> 00:27:23,396 Speaker 1: what happens. Moral licensing happens, and of course Gillo can't 430 00:27:23,396 --> 00:27:27,076 Speaker 1: fait back, can't she? Until the very end of your 431 00:27:27,116 --> 00:27:30,516 Speaker 1: tenure as Prime Minister, you keep a pretty stiff upper 432 00:27:30,516 --> 00:27:31,116 Speaker 1: lip about this. 433 00:27:31,996 --> 00:27:33,956 Speaker 4: Yes, I think I did tell me. 434 00:27:33,916 --> 00:27:36,236 Speaker 1: About that, about your decision of how to handle it. 435 00:27:36,676 --> 00:27:39,836 Speaker 4: I mean, some of it's innate, some of it's just me. 436 00:27:40,076 --> 00:27:45,036 Speaker 4: And then I also took a deliberate decision that you know, 437 00:27:45,156 --> 00:27:49,876 Speaker 4: if you looked like you couldn't take it, if you 438 00:27:49,956 --> 00:27:57,156 Speaker 4: looked upset, then that would be used against me. Personally, 439 00:27:57,236 --> 00:28:00,676 Speaker 4: but more importantly against women generally, that there would have 440 00:28:00,756 --> 00:28:05,236 Speaker 4: been people muttering to themselves. You know knew women weren't 441 00:28:05,396 --> 00:28:07,556 Speaker 4: up for this. You know knew they couldn't take it 442 00:28:07,596 --> 00:28:08,716 Speaker 4: when they're going got tough. 443 00:28:12,196 --> 00:28:14,876 Speaker 1: Then, near the end of Gillard's time in office, a 444 00:28:14,956 --> 00:28:18,116 Speaker 1: prominent member of her own party, the man she's chosen 445 00:28:18,116 --> 00:28:21,476 Speaker 1: to be speaker, is found to have sent sexist text messages, 446 00:28:22,316 --> 00:28:28,036 Speaker 1: and incredibly, her critics come after her. Gillard. They accuse 447 00:28:28,116 --> 00:28:31,716 Speaker 1: her of condoning sexism because she's associated with this man. 448 00:28:32,596 --> 00:28:34,916 Speaker 1: She sits in her office in disbelief. 449 00:28:35,596 --> 00:28:38,996 Speaker 4: You know, I don't want to use any bad language 450 00:28:39,516 --> 00:28:43,876 Speaker 4: to you, but I did have just going through my 451 00:28:44,396 --> 00:28:48,796 Speaker 4: brain for Heaven's sake, and the word I was thinking 452 00:28:48,916 --> 00:28:54,596 Speaker 4: wasn't Heaven's but for Heaven's sake. I cannot believe that 453 00:28:54,796 --> 00:28:59,476 Speaker 4: after everything I've had to listen to, now I'm somehow 454 00:29:00,196 --> 00:29:03,716 Speaker 4: going to walk into a parliament and people who have 455 00:29:04,036 --> 00:29:07,836 Speaker 4: used gendered insults against me are now somehow going to 456 00:29:07,876 --> 00:29:11,156 Speaker 4: try and give me a lecture on sexism. Like the 457 00:29:11,436 --> 00:29:15,516 Speaker 4: injustice of this was just boiling in me. 458 00:29:16,556 --> 00:29:20,076 Speaker 1: So that day in Parliament she stands up and gives 459 00:29:20,116 --> 00:29:24,236 Speaker 1: her famous misogyny speech. It's addressed to her harshest critic, 460 00:29:24,556 --> 00:29:28,276 Speaker 1: the leader of Australia's opposition, a man named Tony Abbott. 461 00:29:29,036 --> 00:29:32,396 Speaker 1: Gillard just starts listening all the things Abbot has said 462 00:29:32,436 --> 00:29:35,076 Speaker 1: and done to her and other women over the years. 463 00:29:35,476 --> 00:29:36,596 Speaker 1: She lets him have it. 464 00:29:37,116 --> 00:29:41,236 Speaker 4: I was very offended personally when the Leader of the Opposition, 465 00:29:41,436 --> 00:29:45,116 Speaker 4: as Minister for Health said, and I quote, abortion is 466 00:29:45,156 --> 00:29:49,116 Speaker 4: the easy way out. I was very personally offended by 467 00:29:49,196 --> 00:29:52,596 Speaker 4: those comments. You said that in March two thousand and four. 468 00:29:52,716 --> 00:29:54,236 Speaker 4: I suggest you check the records. 469 00:29:54,516 --> 00:29:57,116 Speaker 1: This is live on the floor of Parliament. If you 470 00:29:57,196 --> 00:30:00,276 Speaker 1: watch the video, Abbot's sitting right in front of her. 471 00:30:00,756 --> 00:30:04,436 Speaker 1: She's dressing him down to his face, and the longer 472 00:30:04,476 --> 00:30:07,356 Speaker 1: she goes on, the more he shrivels and shrinks. 473 00:30:07,636 --> 00:30:11,156 Speaker 4: I was also very on behalf of the women of 474 00:30:11,196 --> 00:30:16,196 Speaker 4: Australia when, in the course of this carbon pricing campaign, 475 00:30:16,476 --> 00:30:19,796 Speaker 4: the leader of the Opposition said, when the housewives of 476 00:30:19,836 --> 00:30:23,796 Speaker 4: Australia need to do what the housewives of Australia need 477 00:30:23,876 --> 00:30:27,436 Speaker 4: to understand as they do the ironing, thank you for 478 00:30:27,516 --> 00:30:31,076 Speaker 4: that painting of women's roles in modern Australia. And then, 479 00:30:31,156 --> 00:30:35,116 Speaker 4: of course I was offended to by the sexism, by 480 00:30:35,196 --> 00:30:38,796 Speaker 4: the misogyny of the leader of the opposition, cat calling 481 00:30:38,836 --> 00:30:42,356 Speaker 4: across this table at me as I sit here as 482 00:30:42,476 --> 00:30:46,876 Speaker 4: Prime Minister, if the Prime Minister wants to, politically speaking, 483 00:30:47,156 --> 00:30:50,356 Speaker 4: make an honest woman of herself, something that would never 484 00:30:50,436 --> 00:30:53,756 Speaker 4: have been said to any man sitting in this chair. 485 00:30:54,276 --> 00:30:57,436 Speaker 4: I was offended when the leader of the Opposition went 486 00:30:57,476 --> 00:31:00,316 Speaker 4: outside in the front of Parliament and stood next to 487 00:31:00,356 --> 00:31:03,876 Speaker 4: a sign that said ditch the witch. I was offended 488 00:31:04,116 --> 00:31:06,556 Speaker 4: when the leader of the Opposition all next to a 489 00:31:06,676 --> 00:31:10,796 Speaker 4: sign that described me as a man's I was offended 490 00:31:10,796 --> 00:31:14,956 Speaker 4: by those things. Misogyny, sex season every day from this 491 00:31:15,156 --> 00:31:19,996 Speaker 4: later of the oppositions, every die in every way, across 492 00:31:20,036 --> 00:31:21,276 Speaker 4: the time the labor. 493 00:31:21,076 --> 00:31:25,316 Speaker 1: This was twenty twelve, it was practically yesterday. At her 494 00:31:25,396 --> 00:31:28,916 Speaker 1: last news conference as Prime Minister, Gillard says, what I 495 00:31:28,956 --> 00:31:31,956 Speaker 1: am absolutely confident of is that it will be easier 496 00:31:31,996 --> 00:31:34,236 Speaker 1: for the next woman, and for the woman after that 497 00:31:34,596 --> 00:31:36,836 Speaker 1: and the woman after that. And I'm proud of that. 498 00:31:37,996 --> 00:31:41,116 Speaker 1: But forgive me for being a little less optimistic than 499 00:31:41,156 --> 00:31:49,316 Speaker 1: she was. The difference between Julia Gillard and Elizabeth Thompson 500 00:31:49,436 --> 00:31:51,436 Speaker 1: is that Thompson never had the chance to give a 501 00:31:51,436 --> 00:31:54,436 Speaker 1: speech like that on the floor of Parliament. She went 502 00:31:54,476 --> 00:31:58,156 Speaker 1: away quietly. Gillard got the chance to stand up and 503 00:31:58,236 --> 00:32:01,556 Speaker 1: to be heard. And I suppose that's progress. But the 504 00:32:01,676 --> 00:32:04,916 Speaker 1: underlying dynamics these two women faced are they all that different? 505 00:32:05,556 --> 00:32:09,396 Speaker 1: A woman gets accepted into a man's world. She thinks said, 506 00:32:09,476 --> 00:32:13,996 Speaker 1: somehow something has changed, but nothing has changed. The men 507 00:32:14,156 --> 00:32:16,836 Speaker 1: pat themselves on the back, and then they slammed the 508 00:32:16,876 --> 00:32:21,916 Speaker 1: door shut again. Tony Abbott the man she eviscerated. He 509 00:32:22,036 --> 00:32:30,756 Speaker 1: later becomes Prime Minister of Australia. By the way, here's 510 00:32:30,756 --> 00:32:32,756 Speaker 1: a partial list of the countries that have had one 511 00:32:33,076 --> 00:32:37,596 Speaker 1: and only one female leader. Open the door, pat themselves 512 00:32:37,596 --> 00:32:51,156 Speaker 1: on the back, close it again ready, Brazil, Germany, Costa Rica, Croatia, Nicaragua, Latvia, Panama, Bolivia, Ecuador, Pakistan, Poland, Turkey, France, Canada, 513 00:32:51,396 --> 00:32:57,676 Speaker 1: and of course Australia. Makes you wonder about Hillary Clinton, 514 00:32:57,996 --> 00:33:09,996 Speaker 1: doesn't it. She's not going to have it easy. You've 515 00:33:09,996 --> 00:33:13,596 Speaker 1: been listening to Revisionist History. If you like what you've heard, 516 00:33:14,076 --> 00:33:16,196 Speaker 1: do us a favor and rate us on iTunes. It 517 00:33:16,316 --> 00:33:19,396 Speaker 1: helps you can get more information about this and other 518 00:33:19,476 --> 00:33:24,556 Speaker 1: episodes at revisionististory dot com, or on your favorite podcast 519 00:33:24,596 --> 00:33:28,636 Speaker 1: app Our show is produced by Mia LaBelle, Roxanne Scott 520 00:33:28,956 --> 00:33:33,436 Speaker 1: and Jacob Smith. Our editor is Julia Barton. Music is 521 00:33:33,476 --> 00:33:38,356 Speaker 1: composed by Luis Guerra and Taka Yasuzawa. Flonon Williams is 522 00:33:38,396 --> 00:33:43,716 Speaker 1: our engineer, fact checker Michelle Siraka and the Panoply management 523 00:33:43,756 --> 00:33:51,396 Speaker 1: team Laura Mayer, Andy Bauers and Jacob Weisberg. I'm Malcolm Gladwell.