1 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. You're listening to the 2 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,119 Speaker 1: noon and five pm Eastern on Apple Coarckley and Android 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube. 6 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 2: Happy Friday, and thanks for being with us here at 7 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 2: the threshold of the weekend on the fastest show in politics. 8 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 2: We've got a lot to talk about today if you're 9 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 2: just joining us. Donald Trump has left the bubble, stopping 10 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 2: down in North Carolina just a short time ago, where 11 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 2: he's surveying damage left by the hurricanes. Of course, asheville, 12 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 2: we've talked so much about the reality changed by Hurricane Helene. 13 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 2: And then it's on to California a little bit later 14 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 2: on today. This will be in the evening hours East 15 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 2: Coast time. Gavin Newsom will be greeting Donald Trump on 16 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 2: the tarmac in LA and of course he's going to 17 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 2: be surveying damage from wildfires, which just moments ago in 18 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 2: North Carolina he again blamed on the valve as he 19 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 2: calls it in northern California that he says is steering 20 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 2: water into the Pacific, and he simply wants them to 21 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 2: turn the water back on. As we've discussed on this program, 22 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 2: it doesn't work that way. In efforts to save the 23 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 2: two inch long delta smelt appear not to have much 24 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 2: to do with what's happening with the response to these fires. 25 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 2: The conversation around FEMA, though, is getting pretty interesting here. 26 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 2: You remember everything said about FEMA in Asheville following the hurricanes, 27 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 2: the miss and disinformation flames are being fanned here on 28 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 2: this trip, and Donald Trump suggesting FEMA shouldn't have much 29 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 2: of a role in the future, that it should go 30 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 2: to the States. Here's what he said on the tarmac. 31 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 3: Because WEBA just hasn't done the job, and we're looking 32 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 3: at the whole concept of FEMA. I like, frankly, the 33 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 3: concept when North Carolina gets hit, the governor takes care 34 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 3: of it. When Florida gets hit, the governor takes care 35 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 3: of it, meaning the state. 36 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 4: Takes care of it. 37 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 3: To have a group of people come in from an 38 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 3: area that don't even know where they're going in order 39 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 3: to solve immediately a problem is something that never worked 40 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 3: for me. 41 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 2: That's where we start our conversation now with Wendy Benjaminson 42 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:18,959 Speaker 2: in Washington. This is an interesting trip. Great to see it. 43 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:20,679 Speaker 2: By the way, I feel like it's been forever since 44 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 2: you were on the broadcast. And boy, I think last 45 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 2: time we spoke, Joe Biden was still the president. So 46 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 2: consider that that long. That was like four days ago. 47 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 2: Look the optics that surround a trip like this mean 48 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 2: high stakes, right, potential risk, potential high reward for Donald Trump? 49 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 2: How's he starting out today in North Carolina? What are 50 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 2: we talking about with FEMA here? I didn't realize until 51 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 2: recently this was even a very controversial agency, right. 52 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 5: Well, I mean we've come a long way. I was 53 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 5: just thinking about this since twenty years ago when George W. 54 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 5: Bush put his arm around the FEMA administrator in New Orleans. 55 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 5: It is that heck of a job, Brownie. The trouble is, 56 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 5: Brownie didn't do a heck of a job in twenty 57 00:02:56,080 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 5: years ago. And FEMA has always been underfunded, has always 58 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 5: had problems getting on the ground and doing everything they're 59 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 5: supposed to do. So to that point, okay, maybe you know, 60 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 5: maybe they didn't do enough in Ashville, maybe they're not 61 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 5: doing enough in California. However, this idea that it can 62 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 5: just go to the states. I think is going to 63 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 5: be met with a lot of resistance from both red 64 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 5: state Republican and Democratic governors because it is one of those, 65 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 5: if you remember the term unfunded mandates, where the federal 66 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:30,679 Speaker 5: government says, you, guys, take care of this, but we're 67 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 5: not sending you any money to do it. A lot 68 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 5: of Republican states have really, you know, lowered their taxes 69 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 5: and they don't have the kind of revenue. So you know, 70 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 5: in a state like California, which is rich maybe and 71 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 5: what if a tornado hits Alabama, you know, are they 72 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 5: really going to be able to fix restore themselves with 73 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 5: only their budget. So that's the conundrum for Congress. 74 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 2: Well, so there are a couple of things that play 75 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 2: here today when you consider the remarks from Donald Trump 76 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 2: questioning FEMA, blaming the Biden administration and for what he 77 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 2: says was a no response, even though there was a 78 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 2: robust response in North Carolina. We've been through that. But 79 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 2: now also conditioning aid a couple of days ago, it 80 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 2: was the debt limit. Put that together with maybe California 81 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 2: wildfire relief. Now it's voter id. He says, this seemed 82 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 2: to just jump out of the gates. This morning, California 83 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 2: gets voter ID, then they get the money. Is that 84 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 2: how it's going to go? 85 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 5: Who knows, because, as you said, the goalpost keeps changing. 86 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 5: What struck me in that moment there was interesting was 87 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 5: a reporter in Ashville said to the President, are you 88 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 5: going to condition the age in North Carolina? And he 89 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 5: didn't answer, but he said, well, the people of North 90 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 5: Carolina have been through so much, Yes they have, you know, 91 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 5: they've been through ours, but so of the people of California. 92 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 5: And apparently there is no talk of conditioning aid. He 93 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 5: was even being told at this briefing how many people 94 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 5: in affected counties in North Carolina voted for him. So, 95 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,239 Speaker 5: you know, is the question are you loyal to Donald Trump? 96 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:03,480 Speaker 5: Or is the question did your home? Yeah, burn to 97 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 5: the ground or get destroyed by a waterfall? 98 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 2: From our reporter on the ground by the way next 99 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 2: stop about twenty minutes away, they're driving. He will speak 100 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 2: and also meet with families. It'll be outside. They have 101 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 2: a podium set up. It's likely that we'll hear from 102 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 2: the President again in North Carolina during the broadcast. It's 103 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 2: going to be in front of an RV. This is 104 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 2: to consider the optics. As I mentioned the RV park 105 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 2: next to a washed out house, it's going to look 106 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 2: like North Carolina has had no help. Yeah, what are 107 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 2: the optics that he's seeking here? 108 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 5: Those are the optics that he's thinking that these are 109 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 5: people who are suffering, that these are Trump voters who 110 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 5: have been suffering. And I guess this is him being 111 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 5: consoler in chief, because if he's saying the federal government's 112 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 5: going to leave you on your own, then I don't 113 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 5: know exactly what he's going to say. This house is 114 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 5: going to be rebuilt, either what through private insurance or whatever. 115 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 5: Of Course, he can't just wipe out a federal agency 116 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 5: with the stroke of a pen, no matter how much 117 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,679 Speaker 5: Elon Musk might really want to do that, I believe. 118 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 5: I'm not positive, but I believe it takes an Act 119 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 5: of Congress. So that would mean. 120 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 2: Much like creating one, much like creating I suppose. 121 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 5: So you know, he's going to have to figure out 122 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 5: some way to get Congress from states that are all 123 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 5: being hit by natural disasters as the climate change is 124 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 5: to agree to get rid of the one agency that 125 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 5: can that at least tries to. 126 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 2: Help you know, we talked about Joe Biden as consolar 127 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 2: in chief all the time. That's what he was said 128 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 2: to be good at. He would tend to show up 129 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 2: with the first lady. By the way, Milania Trump is 130 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 2: with him today. That's important, right, You can't meet with 131 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 2: the families, I'm assuming without the first lady joining you, 132 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 2: or at least that's probably the drive here. I've heard 133 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:51,119 Speaker 2: more references to paper towels today than I have since 134 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 2: he went to Puerto Rico. He knows what people are 135 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,239 Speaker 2: talking about here. Does that affect his posture and dealing 136 00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 2: with people talking to reporters. 137 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 5: I think it does, and I think we're seeing it today. 138 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 5: He has not been overly glib. He has not been. 139 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 5: I mean, he's he even you know Senator Adam Schiff, 140 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 5: who was invited to go with him, but he was 141 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 5: a leader of the resistance, you know, in the first term. 142 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 5: He chose for scheduling. 143 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 2: Conflex not to go. 144 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, he's got too many he's got to wash his air. 145 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 5: He can't go to California with the president. I mean, 146 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 5: and I think you know, Schiff is politically smart not 147 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 5: to join him on that trip for his own political purposes. 148 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 2: But yeah, I called him scum from the Oval office 149 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 2: this week. 150 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's not the right, and so's he's decided. 151 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 2: Gavin Newsom a different story, though. He will be on 152 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 2: the tarmac, even though Donald Trump calls him scum and 153 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 2: has blamed him for the fires. Right, but what's that 154 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 2: work there? Though Gavin Newsom doesn't want to be seen 155 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 2: as an obstructionist obviously, can they work together? 156 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 5: I think they might try. I think when they all 157 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 5: the cameras are off and you're talking about the second 158 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 5: largest city in the United States being devastated by this, 159 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 5: I think that two of them will probably work together. 160 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 5: For a senator, it's less important he can say, you know, 161 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 5: I'm not getting on the plane with you. Go just 162 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 5: do it. But the governor has to make sure that 163 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 5: money comes to the things and that the president sees 164 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 5: this and all that. So he will probably put aside 165 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 5: any personal animas, any irritation. I guess Trump will put 166 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 5: aside his irritation perhaps, and we'll see what happens. We'll 167 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 5: see what, you know, when he gets out there. It'll 168 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 5: be interesting to see if Trump also moderates his tone 169 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 5: about absolutely yeah, when he's in front of people and 170 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 5: including his own supporters like Mel Gibson and actors like 171 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 5: that who lost their homes. 172 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 2: I forgot about the Hollywood ambassadors. How quick this so 173 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 2: much that you alone? 174 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 5: And yeah, John Royd, I think. 175 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 2: Sure, John Voyd. You know this is the part of 176 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 2: the conversation where I asked Wendy to pull up to 177 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 2: about thirty thousand feet because this is one of those 178 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 2: weeks that calls for it. As I just mentioned, Joe 179 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 2: Biden was still the president on Monday morning. So much 180 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 2: has happened. People talk about the fire hose, the news 181 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 2: cycle flooding the zone. How would you describe this week 182 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 2: and the ground that shifted under Washington's feet? 183 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 5: It's insane. I actually yesterday said something to a reporter 184 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:11,719 Speaker 5: in the newsroom. I said, oh, thanks for helping me 185 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 5: out on Sunday with some story, and he goes, Sunday, 186 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 5: wasn't that like a year ago? I mean, the idea 187 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 5: that it was five days ago just wasn't computing. I 188 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 5: think we all are going to get used to this 189 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 5: pace again. Trump will probably also begin to calm down 190 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 5: and just get into governing after he does this. You know, 191 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 5: he wants to run shock and awe this way right, 192 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 5: shock and awe, But I think we are. We all 193 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 5: have to get used to and why we all, I 194 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 5: don't mean journalists, I mean America and the world has 195 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 5: to get used to the fact that things are going 196 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 5: to come out of left field at weird times. Biden 197 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 5: ran a nine to five presidency and I think that 198 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 5: and we might have gotten something similar with Kamala Harris. 199 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:59,439 Speaker 5: But Trump operates on his own schedule, on his own timeframe, 200 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 5: often intradicting his press secretary while she's at the podium. 201 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 5: Hard to see that again. 202 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:06,439 Speaker 2: Are we going to get briefings? By the way we are? 203 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 2: What do we know about this? Will there be daily briefings? 204 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 5: So that's that's tool about Jaily But I know Caroline 205 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 5: love it. The new press secretary has done a couple 206 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 5: I think, and you know she probably won't today because 207 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 5: they're traveling, but I think she will do briefings. The 208 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 5: trouble is that for her predecessor was that Trump would 209 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 5: would in those days tweet right the opposite of what 210 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 5: she was saying, and the. 211 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 2: Reporters are reading that to the or he'll just wall 212 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 2: to the room and take over the briefing, which I suppose. 213 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 2: But that'll happen from time to time around here. I 214 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 2: find it interesting editor's news organizations, people writing op eds 215 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 2: to say it's going to be different, that we're not 216 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 2: taking the bait every time, not every headline. We're not 217 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 2: going to stop down. We're going to be discerning. And 218 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:45,719 Speaker 2: I'll tell you what none of them have actually done 219 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 2: it yet, is this is going to take some getting 220 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 2: used to. That's why we have Bloomberg though, because we 221 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 2: don't do it quite the same way as the other networks. 222 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 2: It's great to have you back. Wendy Benjaminson with US 223 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 2: Live in Washington on the first week of Donald Trump's 224 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:01,119 Speaker 2: new presidency. 225 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcasts. Catch 226 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: US Live weekdays at noon and five pm e's durn 227 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: on Apple, Cocklay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. 228 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,439 Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our 229 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: flagship New York station, Just say Alexa Play Bloomberg. Eleven thirty. 230 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:24,959 Speaker 6: We just heard from President Donald Trump on his visit 231 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 6: to North Carolina alongside families affected by Hurricane Helen, once 232 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:34,319 Speaker 6: again talking about FEMA federal emergency response, of course, suggesting 233 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 6: that if it were up to him, it would be 234 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,839 Speaker 6: eliminated entirely. As we'd already heard him say earlier today, 235 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 6: he thinks this should be up to the states. It 236 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 6: is unclear, though, Joe, how exactly that would work, considering 237 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 6: states don't kind of have the kind of emergency personnel 238 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 6: readily available, which is a lot of what FEMA provides, 239 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 6: let alone questions around resources for emergency response. And once again, 240 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 6: of course, we heard him criticizing what FEMA did during 241 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 6: the Biden administration in response to Hurricane Helene. Although he 242 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 6: has repeated some misinformation about what was and was not 243 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:06,559 Speaker 6: available during that immediate aftermath. 244 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 2: That's correct, including the fact that Joe Biden did visit 245 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 2: North Carolina. Donald Trump said he did not, And we 246 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 2: know that there were thousands of FEMA workers who were 247 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 2: staying up all night working in extremely dangerous conditions following 248 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:22,439 Speaker 2: those storms in North Carolina. The Asheville area, western North 249 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 2: Carolina into the hills is something we talked about for weeks, Kaylee. 250 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 2: There was an enormous amount of misinformation online that actually 251 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 2: led to some FEMA workers being attacked or being blocked 252 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 2: from getting into areas where they were trying to help people. 253 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 2: Donald Trump leaving this particular stop in North Carolina. They're 254 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 2: going to continue on and we'll be following his travels 255 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 2: throughout the day, not only in North Carolina, but also 256 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 2: in California where Kayley. The matter of climate is something 257 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 2: that's been talked about a lot with regard to these wildfires, 258 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 2: as Donald Trump blames a valve that he says exists 259 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 2: somewhere in northern California that he says Gavin Newsom used 260 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:00,199 Speaker 2: to turn the water off in La. 261 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 6: And of course authorities in California deny the existence of 262 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 6: such a valve. There is no factual evidence that that 263 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,439 Speaker 6: is what has happened to here. Buy and large authorities 264 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 6: say this is an infrastructure problem in that the municipal 265 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 6: infrastructure and around Los Angeles simply was not designed to 266 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 6: have the kind of waterflow and pressure to fight fires 267 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 6: with hurricane force winds the Santa Anto wins essentially blowing 268 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 6: them around. It was just a hard thing to fight 269 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 6: all of it. 270 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 2: Though. 271 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 6: To your point, though, whether it's the hurricanes in North 272 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 6: Carolina and mountainous regions that usually aren't experiencing the impact 273 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 6: to as great a degree, two wildfires like what we're 274 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 6: seeing take place now on the West Coast. All of 275 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 6: it does speak to climate oriented events that the US 276 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 6: finds itself having to respond to. So on that note, 277 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 6: we turned now to Gina McCarthy. She's former White House 278 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 6: National Climate Advisor and also former administrator of the EPA. Gina, 279 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 6: welcome back to Balance of Power here on Bloomberg TV 280 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,319 Speaker 6: and Radio. We appreciate your time as we consider these 281 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 6: events on both the East and West coast. Is the 282 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 6: common denominator here a changing climate with no sign that 283 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:04,319 Speaker 6: you should not anticipate events of this scale and potentially 284 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 6: as damaging as we have seen in the future. 285 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 7: Well, first of all, thanks for letting me be here 286 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 7: and absolutely what you're seeing here, both in North Carolina 287 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 7: and California our climate impacts. What you're seeing here is 288 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 7: the threat to people everywhere. And I have to say 289 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 7: that after listening to some of the remarks by the President, 290 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 7: I'm not sure how to feel better and more confident 291 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 7: about the federal government jumping in and making sure when 292 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 7: we see climate disasters like this, we aren't running towards 293 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 7: folks making sure that they can get the safety and 294 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 7: security that they need. So my hope is that over 295 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 7: time the President will learn that FEMA is a great agency. 296 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 7: It stepped in in North Carolina. Everybody is on board 297 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 7: to fight the fires in Los Angeles. So before we 298 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 7: make any of these issues political, we ought to make 299 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 7: sure that we're protecting peopleople in communities. 300 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 2: First. Donald Trump's going to touch down in California a 301 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 2: little bit later on. We understand the Gavin Newsom will 302 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 2: meet him on the tarmac, having been blamed by Donald 303 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 2: Trump for these fires. I just wondered if you could 304 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 2: speak to the situation involving We've heard a lot about 305 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 2: the valve and the delta smelt from Donald Trump. Tell 306 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 2: us in your view, why Los Angeles is burning and 307 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 2: why these fires have been so hard to fight. 308 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 7: Well, we've seen, as you indicated earlier, we've seen some 309 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 7: tremendous wind one hundred mile an hour winds. We're seeing 310 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 7: a basically two months of literally no rain in southern California. 311 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 7: We're seeing challenges that we've never seen before in terms 312 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 7: of the drought that's hitting that area, which means it 313 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 7: was a tinder box. It was ready to go, and 314 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 7: with those fires it's been carrying, fueling it consistently and 315 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 7: now refueling it again, so we have to recognize that 316 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 7: this is not about pointing fingers. It's about recognizing that 317 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 7: in the challenge of climate change, you're going to see 318 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 7: these kind of disasters hitting because the weather's not the 319 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 7: same anymore. We are talking about impacts that we need 320 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 7: to face and respond to and be prepared for. 321 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 2: Well. 322 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 6: In that response, in part is mitigation and adaptation, right, 323 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 6: trying to work with a changing environment so that you 324 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 6: can best avoid things like this to the extent that 325 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 6: we can brace against Mother Nature. Gina and I do 326 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 6: wonder as California is creasing a lot of criticism, perhaps 327 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 6: unwarranted in some instances. 328 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 8: It comes to things like. 329 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 6: Waterflow and supply and this valve and the delta smelt 330 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 6: as Joe has referred to you. But are there things 331 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 6: California should have been doing from a mitigation aspect that 332 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 6: if we're talking about conditions on aid, maybe should be 333 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 6: included in those conditions. 334 00:16:58,600 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 8: How could it be handled better? 335 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,439 Speaker 7: Well, we have seedfires consistently in this area, and I 336 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 7: think California does it's best to try to respond to this. 337 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 7: But look, every community is at risk as a result 338 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,679 Speaker 7: of climate impacts, so we do have to work together 339 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 7: not pointing at fingers, but figuring out how we can 340 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 7: continue to move forward in the face of a president 341 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 7: that doesn't acknowledge that climate change exists. So I think 342 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 7: it's really important that we move together, that we maintain 343 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 7: our relationship with the international community, even though that the 344 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 7: Paris Agreement has now been avoided again by President Trump. 345 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 7: We are working with Mike Bloomberg and others to make 346 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 7: sure that we still maintain a vital role internationally. But 347 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:54,159 Speaker 7: we also have to recognize that governors and mayors and 348 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 7: business leaders and institutions all have to step up now 349 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 7: they know the challenges facing and we have to make 350 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 7: sure that we continue to invest in our communities in 351 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 7: a way that's moving forward with clean energy and not 352 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 7: making the climate worse by continuing to advance oil and gas, 353 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 7: which is ultimately the main reason why we are having 354 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 7: the climate challenges we're seeing today. 355 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 2: Gin, I want to ask you about some of the 356 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 2: things that we've seen take place this week since Donald 357 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 2: Trump took office. We saw a flurry of executive actions, 358 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 2: starting of course, on day one, as he promised. I'm 359 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 2: looking at one of them right now, called Unleashing American Energy. 360 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 2: It's date of the twentieth of January. This executive order 361 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 2: disbands the Interagency Working Group on the Social Cost of 362 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 2: greenhouse Gases that Joe Biden helped to establish in twenty 363 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 2: twenty one. It excludes the work of this group as well. 364 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 2: To this point from government policy, what do you make 365 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 2: of the reversals of some of the work that you 366 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 2: were involved in in the Biden administryation and what will 367 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 2: be the impact? 368 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 7: Well, you know, I think one of the most important 369 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:06,919 Speaker 7: things to remember, and it's pretty clear that they're trying 370 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:11,360 Speaker 7: to reduce the impact of any of the efforts underway 371 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 7: to address climate change and to move towards clean energy. 372 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,439 Speaker 7: But what's I think important for the American public to 373 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 7: understand is that we have seven hundred and fifty plus 374 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,880 Speaker 7: clean energy projects moving forward in the United States. Now 375 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 7: we have already moved forward with four hundred thousand new 376 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 7: clean energy jobs. The American people want clean energy. It's 377 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 7: saving their money, it's keeping their air cleaner, it's keeping 378 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 7: them safe and more secure. And remember, half of those 379 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 7: projects are in Republican districts. So now we have Republican 380 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 7: congressmen standing up saying we don't want to dismantle all 381 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 7: of the work that's been done before. So it's really 382 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 7: important for us to remember, rather than continuing to fight 383 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 7: about everything, let's look at what is already in our hands. 384 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,199 Speaker 7: The eighty four percent of money that's already gone to 385 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 7: cities and states and Great America is all in colleagues, 386 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 7: governors and mayors who are going to stand up and 387 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 7: talk about the real things happening in the world and 388 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 7: how we can continue to move forward on clean energy, 389 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 7: because that's the challenge that Donald Trump faces. Fossil fuels 390 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 7: are expensive, clean energy is cheap. That's what the American 391 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 7: people need to know and understand, so we can begin 392 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 7: to get over the hump and work together to move 393 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 7: forward to make our country work the way it's supposed to. 394 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 6: Well, Gina, as you talk about the resources that are 395 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 6: needed here, we should not. As you mentioned earlier, some 396 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 6: of those resources have in fact come from Michael R. Bloomberg, 397 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 6: who is the founder and majority owner of Bloomberg LP, 398 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 6: which is the owner of this network. Before we let 399 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 6: you go, Gena, obviously we all have our eyes on 400 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 6: the Senate as a number of Donald Trump's cabinet nominees 401 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 6: are teed up for confirmation votes that includes Lee Zelden, 402 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 6: who he is tapped for your old job running the EPA. 403 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:12,439 Speaker 6: What would your advice to mister Zelden, B. 404 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 7: Well, I think my advice to him would be to 405 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 7: take a deep breath when you get there. EPA is 406 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 7: a terrific agency. Take a look at what they do 407 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 7: from a science perspective. Get you an understanding of what's 408 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 7: going on across the United States, where the environmental challenges are, 409 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 7: and how he can work together, even within this administration, 410 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 7: to make sure that these layers are focused on protecting 411 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 7: the American public. After all, that is the EPA's role. 412 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 7: We are there to protect our environment and our well 413 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 7: being and bring safer communities to the table. And I 414 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 7: hope that he'll have the wherewithal to give it a 415 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 7: little bit of time, understand that agency and utilize them 416 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 7: as some of the best, most professional scientists and policy 417 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,959 Speaker 7: people that any agency has in the United States. 418 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 4: So beyond. 419 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 2: With us from the Paradise of Jamaica plane, Gina McCarthy. 420 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:09,679 Speaker 2: It's great to see Gina. Thank you and come back 421 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 2: and see us soon here on Bloomberg TV and Radio. 422 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 2: Not just formerly EPA, former White House National Climate Advisor. 423 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch 424 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on 425 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: Alpa Cockley and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. 426 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 1: Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch 427 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: us live on YouTube. 428 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 6: Round out the trading week and round out what has 429 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,199 Speaker 6: been an incredibly long week here in Washington, and of 430 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 6: course began on Monday with the inauguration of Donald Trump. 431 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 8: Who is now ending his week on the move. 432 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 6: Right now as we speak, he's heading back to the 433 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 6: airport in Ashville, North Carolina, where he'll take off for 434 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 6: Los Angeles to be the damage from wildfires. He'll be 435 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 6: spending his weekend traveling. You know who won't be traveling 436 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 6: this weekend, though, Joe. Members of the United States Senate 437 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 6: he are going to be kept in town, we understand, 438 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,880 Speaker 6: to vote on Donald Trump's Countinet nominations beginning tonight, relatively 439 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 6: late tonight, nine pm Eastern time, the expected confirmation vote 440 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 6: for Defense Secretary nominee Pete Hegseth. 441 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. Lawmakers in the House left town, even though apparently 442 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 2: the leadership wanted them to hang out for the March 443 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 2: for Life, which is something else that's taking place today 444 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 2: in Washington as we speak. This is an annual fifty 445 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 2: second as a matter of fact. But senators have no choice. 446 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 2: They could be voting for Pete Hegseth around nine or 447 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 2: ten o'clock tonight, depending on how things go, and it looks 448 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 2: like they could roll straight through the weekend. Remembering John 449 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 2: Thune wants everybody in five days a week. Yep, no 450 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 2: days off. 451 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:39,439 Speaker 8: He's playing hardball with the schedule. 452 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 2: Five days of the Senate is nothing sacred. We reassembled 453 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 2: our panel. Rick Davis and Jeanie Shanzino are with us 454 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 2: on the Friday edition of Balance of Power. He is, 455 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 2: of course Republican strategist partner Stone Court Capital. She's democratic 456 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 2: analyst and political science professor at Iona University. Ricky spent 457 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 2: enough time in the Senate to know how outrageous this 458 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 2: whole idea must be seriousness, Pete hegg Zeth looks to 459 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 2: have the votes. Will he be Defense Secretary by the end. 460 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,400 Speaker 9: Of the day, Yeah, very well, could be certainly by midnight. 461 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 9: You know, there was a test vote yesterday that you know, 462 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 9: called Clochar on this nomination to bring to the floor, 463 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 9: and he lost two Republicans. He can lose to one 464 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:22,120 Speaker 9: war and still become secretary, but if he loses another 465 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 9: fourth vote, that ends his nomination. 466 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 2: And it is interesting. 467 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 9: I mean, Donald Trump today has said repeatedly that he 468 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 9: wasn't counting on Mitch McConnell to vote for Hegsittt, although 469 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 9: McConnell supported the cloture vote, So. 470 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 2: I don't know. 471 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 9: I mean, it will be interesting to see if they 472 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 9: have to use the vice president to break a tie, 473 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 9: if Mitch McConnell joins Collins and Markowski in opposing heg Sath. 474 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 2: You know that's what we're talking about here. 475 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 6: Right jab in the motor kid yep, having to cast 476 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 6: a tie breaking vote knowing that the others we were watching, 477 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 6: Senators Young and Ernst, Joni ERNs of course, the female 478 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 6: combat veteran who now res Iowa, and the Senate having. 479 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 8: Said they're still standing by Pete Hegseth. 480 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 6: Which makes the question, Genie, if all of this does 481 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 6: feel inevitable, if Democrats do know heg Seth ultimately is 482 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 6: likely to get confirmed, why we're still seeing the kind 483 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,159 Speaker 6: of slow walking of the procedure. Why not just let 484 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 6: it be fast tracked and get it all done with 485 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 6: instead of having to do these hours of debate and 486 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,880 Speaker 6: stay the weekend. What's really the point if they can't 487 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 6: stop the confirmation. 488 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I don't think they want to make 489 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 4: it easy for the Republicans to get this through, and 490 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 4: they're certainly not going to do that. And I think 491 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 4: they do have some legitimate frustrations about these FBI background checks. 492 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 4: It looks now like Tillis may support and I'm saying 493 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,400 Speaker 4: may because we don't know heg Seth, and he has 494 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 4: said had he gotten different information from those background checks, 495 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 4: he may not be there for heg Seth. And so, 496 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 4: you know, I think there is frustration on the part 497 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 4: of Democrats and some Republicans like Collins and Murkowski, who 498 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 4: feel that they simply didn't get the information they needed. 499 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 4: The reality is, even if heg Seth is confirmed, and 500 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 4: it looks like he will be tonight, it'll be the 501 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 4: by the smallest margin, or one of the smallest margins 502 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 4: in history for a defense secretary. These are normally bipartisan 503 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 4: level votes, strong bipartisan support, something like we saw with 504 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 4: Marco Rubio, and he's likely not going to get that, 505 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 4: and that I think sets him up for a very 506 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 4: very tough go of it as Defense Secretary, which again 507 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 4: he likely will be by tonight nine or ten o'clock. 508 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,880 Speaker 2: Well, the national Security team is taking shape here John 509 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 2: Ratcliffe now CIA director. That vote was seventy four twenty five, 510 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 2: not too bad. In next week we've got a doozy 511 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:51,640 Speaker 2: all in one day, Cash Betel, FBI, Tulsea Gabbard right DNI, 512 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 2: and then we've got RFK Junior obviously not part of 513 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 2: the National Security team. When we think about Pattell and Gabbard, though, Rick, 514 00:26:58,520 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 2: this is going to be a heck of a day 515 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 2: following all of these UH, these hearings that are taking 516 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 2: place at one at once. Tulsea Gabbert seems to be 517 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 2: the one at most risk of not clearing committee or 518 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 2: not being confirmed on the floor. How do you see it? Yeah, 519 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 2: I think you're right. 520 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 9: Both Tulci Gabert and and Cash Pateel have some headwinds. 521 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 9: Republican centers have questioned their fitness for the for the 522 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 9: posts and UH and Tulci Gabbert has not seemingly been 523 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 9: able to clear some of the hurdles around things like 524 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 9: visiting the head of Syria while she was a congressman 525 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 9: and and and issues related to her background. So yes, 526 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,920 Speaker 9: there's going to be some debate around these during their hearing. 527 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 9: I have no doubt Democrats will launch a full scale 528 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 9: assault on both these individuals, uh and and And we'll 529 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 9: see how that shakes out. I mean, one of the 530 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 9: things that is just a parlor game in the United 531 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 9: States Senate. But but assuming heg sith clears his way 532 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 9: to the nomination tonight, with the floor vote scheduled later 533 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 9: this evening, does that mean that they're looking for a 534 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 9: scalp you around the nominations of Gabbert and Cash Pattel. 535 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 2: So if he goes down and. 536 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 9: For whatever reason doesn't make the cut tonight, does that 537 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:29,640 Speaker 9: make actually their ascension to their posts easier. It's a 538 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 9: parlor game, has no real relevance in fact, but it 539 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 9: is what happens in the halls of the Senate during periods. 540 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 2: Of time like this. 541 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 6: Well and Genie, what we've seen so far with a 542 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 6: lot of these confirmation hearings is a pretty partisan split, 543 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 6: if you will. 544 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 8: In the line of questioning. 545 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 6: Democrats are going really hard after these nominees, Republicans less. 546 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 6: So that certainly was the case in the heg Seth hearing, 547 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 6: but others too. I do wonder if you think it 548 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 6: will be as partisan though, when it comes to these 549 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 6: next individuals we're talking about RFK Junior, who conservatives have 550 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 6: a problem with them things like abortion, Tulcy Gabbard, who 551 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 6: national security hawks have concerns about. Is this actually going 552 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 6: to look like everybody's singing from the same hymn book 553 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 6: at least a little bit? 554 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 4: It might be we might see some strange bedfellows. You know, 555 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 4: just as an example the issue with RFK Junior, Do 556 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 4: we see Republicans, for instance, who don't like his stance 557 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 4: on abortion line up with some Democrats? Do we see 558 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 4: Democrats who really do like some of what he has 559 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 4: said about issues surrounding food safety and other things line 560 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 4: up with Republicans? So we could in some of these 561 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 4: see some really strange bedfellows. I'm really looking out for 562 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 4: cash Ptel's hearing. I think that's going to be fascinating. 563 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 4: I wouldn't be surprised if Democrats come in with big 564 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 4: poster boards of his children's book, which has really a 565 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 4: lot in it that people may be surprised to learn about. 566 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 4: So some of this is going to be Democrats and 567 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 4: any Republicans who opposed these folks, using this time to 568 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 4: get the message out about who indeed is for a 569 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 4: vote and letting the American people get more knowledge about 570 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 4: who these people are. But I still think the most 571 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 4: vulnerable here is going to be Tulsi Gabbert. She is 572 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 4: vulnerable from both sides of the aisle at this point. 573 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 2: Rick, You've prepared a number of elected officials, members of 574 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 2: the military, and others for hearings like these, for very 575 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 2: difficult conversations that could involve very sensitive information. I wonder 576 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 2: how much the strategy will be trying to get to 577 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 2: these issues in opening remarks to try to get them 578 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 2: off the table. If you're RFK Junior, do you address 579 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 2: the polio vaccine? Do you say I'm going to allow 580 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 2: you to have GLP ones? If you're Tulsi Gabberd, do 581 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 2: you have Fizis seven oats who in your opening remarks 582 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 2: to try to disarm the questions that are coming. 583 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 9: Yeah, I think that with Kennedy, especially related to some 584 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 9: of these social issues and especially around abortion, he'll try 585 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 9: to knock that down and the Republicans will will basically 586 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 9: hold a colloquy with him, it won't be more like 587 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 9: Q and A, but more like a conversation, and they'll say, well, 588 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 9: of course you wouldn't be for you know, federal funds 589 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 9: being spent on abortions, and he'll say, yes, of course 590 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 9: that would be wrong, you know, uttering the policy of 591 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 9: the Trump administration, and then you know, he'll just revert 592 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 9: back to that conversation every time he gets hit by 593 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 9: the Democrats. I would say, little trickier for Gabbert on 594 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 9: the national security issues. So there are Republicans who have 595 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 9: issues with the FISA system and could actually share some 596 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 9: of her concerns with this, and and Democrats ironically would 597 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 9: potentially be more bullish on some of these issues than 598 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 9: even some of their Republican counterparts or certainly Tulci Gabbert. 599 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 9: So I would watch that one as a much more 600 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 9: of a mixed bag, because I think that the issues 601 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 9: around surveys are much less partisan and much more open 602 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 9: to how you view the appropriate role in the United 603 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 9: States government spying on its own citizens. And that's always 604 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 9: been a hot button issue in the Senate, and I 605 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 9: think one that you'll see rise up in the conversations 606 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 9: around her nomination. 607 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 6: Finally, Genie as we consider those who have been nominated 608 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 6: four roles in this cabinet. I was struck by the 609 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 6: ethics disclosures today that were released for Howard Lutnik, who 610 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 6: has been tapped to be the Commerce Secretary, revealing he 611 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 6: has roles and at least eight hundred legal entities and 612 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 6: net worth of north of two billion dollars. Obviously, he 613 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 6: has pretty complicated financials that somehow need to be dealt 614 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 6: with here if he is to take this role. Does 615 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 6: any of it really matter, especially considering other folks who 616 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 6: have had roles in the first Trump administration and potentially 617 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 6: this one too. 618 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,719 Speaker 4: It absolutely matters. And this is something on both sides 619 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 4: of the aisle that has long been problematic. I don't 620 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 4: suspect we are going to see a resolution to this, 621 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 4: but we do have to figure out a way in 622 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 4: the US system to ensure that people that are serving 623 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 4: the government are able to do so without being tied 624 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 4: to businesses and other organizations that leave people wondering where 625 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 4: their loyalties really lie. And of course it stretches just 626 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 4: beyond the individual, which is one of the toughest things. 627 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 4: It stretches to their spouses, It stresses to family members. 628 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 4: We see this both to with people appointed to the 629 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 4: cabinet others in the White House. And again it is 630 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 4: not just on the Republican side, it's on the Democratic 631 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 4: side as well, and it's in Congress. But Congress then 632 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 4: would have to make take steps to do some ethics reform, 633 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 4: and we haven't seen them likely to move in that direction. 634 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 4: So very very troubling for those of us who want 635 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 4: a ethical system in which fairness and transparency is number 636 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 4: one our minds. 637 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 6: All right, Jeanie Shanzeno and Rick Davis, our signature political panel. 638 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 6: They'll be back for more in the late edition of 639 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 6: Balance of Power coming up in the five o'clock eastern hour. Meantime, 640 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 6: we still have more ahead in this early edition. Up next, 641 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 6: we're going to take a closer look at Trump's executive 642 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 6: orders yesterday around artificial intelligence. So stick with us right 643 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 6: here on Bloomberg TV and radio. 644 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcasts. Catch 645 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,400 Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on 646 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,760 Speaker 1: Apple Cocklay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. 647 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,799 Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our 648 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 1: flagship New York station. Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 649 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 2: I'm Joe Matthew alongside Kaylee Lines in Washington and earlier 650 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 2: this week, Kayley to think that it was all one 651 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 2: week kind of has us juggling the AI executive order. Yes, 652 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:51,399 Speaker 2: that was also this. 653 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 8: Week, it was yesterday. 654 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,400 Speaker 2: That was yesterday. It was the day earlier. He appeared 655 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 2: with Larry Ellison and Sam Alton. Right, I'm trying to 656 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:00,759 Speaker 2: keep the day straight in my head. Of course, artificial 657 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 2: intelligence driving the market and driving the conversation here in 658 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 2: Washington with a new president seems eager to not only 659 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,959 Speaker 2: own the space, but take the guardrails off of AI 660 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 2: the way Joe Biden had wanted them. 661 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 6: Yeah, we should remember it was at the beginning of 662 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 6: this week, on Monday, Inauguration Day, when he signed a 663 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 6: series of executive orders, one of them being the repeal 664 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:23,360 Speaker 6: of seventy eight executive actions under the Biden administration, inclusive 665 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 6: of the sweeping AI executive order that Biden had signed 666 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 6: talking about safety and transparency guidelines, creating a group basically 667 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,800 Speaker 6: within the Department of Commerce to think about voluntary guidelines 668 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,879 Speaker 6: that people could subject themselves to, and it wasn't clear 669 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 6: what was going to replace what was repealed. 670 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:42,800 Speaker 8: Then we got the executive order. 671 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,759 Speaker 6: Yesterday, at least one of them, which calls for an 672 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,800 Speaker 6: interagency group to craft a new policy within six months, 673 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 6: intended not for safeguarding and that kind of thing, but 674 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,840 Speaker 6: to ensure US dominance in AI. 675 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 2: Back to animal spirits, I guess I suppose if you're 676 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 2: hanging out with Larry us Though and Sam Altman. The 677 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,439 Speaker 2: investment from SoftBank was one hundred billion. They say it'll 678 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 2: get up to five hundred billion by the time this 679 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:08,839 Speaker 2: project is done. 680 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 6: So here we go, yes, Stargate, although Elon Musks has 681 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 6: some doubts about whether or not that funding is there. 682 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,440 Speaker 6: It's a fight that's playing out in public, but we'll 683 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,799 Speaker 6: save that for another time. In the meantime, we really 684 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 6: do want to talk about what this technology development is 685 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 6: going to look like under this administration and turn to 686 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,319 Speaker 6: an expert in that arena. Matt Pearl is here with 687 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 6: us in our Washington, d C. 688 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 8: Studio. 689 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 6: He's director of the CSIS Strategic Technologies Program, also former 690 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,399 Speaker 6: director for Emerging Technologies at the National Security Council. Thanks 691 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 6: for being here on Bloomberg TV and Radio. I don't 692 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 6: know if you've had a chance to look at these 693 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 6: executive orders in greater detail. But essentially, how do you 694 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 6: read the way this administration is going to be approaching AI? 695 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 8: How regulated will it be? 696 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 10: So I think that this administration is not going to 697 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 10: be interested in examining models and looking at specific details 698 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,040 Speaker 10: that these companies are doing. I think they're looking to 699 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,840 Speaker 10: power them. I think it's going to be a combination 700 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,400 Speaker 10: of if there are ways that they can use tariffs 701 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 10: that are helpful, if there are things that they can 702 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:11,240 Speaker 10: do in terms of further deregulation, and I think tax 703 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,279 Speaker 10: credits as well. And I think they're going to try 704 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 10: to support it and bring it along and instead of 705 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:18,959 Speaker 10: trying to regulate it. 706 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,280 Speaker 2: It's not like there's a lack of money being invested 707 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 2: in this space. When you look at the capex from 708 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 2: the hyperscalers, it's like its own country here in Meda. 709 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 2: Today's talking about a sixty billion dollar investment. It can 710 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,480 Speaker 2: go on down the line. What does this unlock when 711 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 2: you talk about regulations or investment. Does this hasten the 712 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 2: end game when it comes to AI. 713 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 10: It remains to be seen. Because I think that Xijing 714 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,319 Speaker 10: Ping is all in on this and I think the 715 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 10: scale of the investments, you know, when you look at 716 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 10: what they've done in telecom, for instance, where they've spent 717 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 10: hundreds of billions of dollars on an industry that's not 718 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,720 Speaker 10: particularly profitable and in some ways is not as important. 719 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,359 Speaker 10: I think the scale of the investment that we're going 720 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:04,880 Speaker 10: to see there needs to be matched in the US, 721 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:05,479 Speaker 10: and that's going. 722 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 2: To really folding data centers on the scale that we are. 723 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 10: I think they have the ambitions to and I think 724 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,920 Speaker 10: that Juawei among others, are really scaling up to do 725 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:19,319 Speaker 10: that at a frightening rate, but they're not yet competitive 726 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,720 Speaker 10: with Google and the other hyperscalers. 727 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,280 Speaker 6: When we consider Google and other players in this space 728 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 6: who are operating learn language models. Something else that is 729 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 6: in this executive order is preventing AI systems from being built. 730 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 6: And this is a quote with ideological bias and engineered 731 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,799 Speaker 6: social agendas. Obviously, Google and others have come under some 732 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 6: scrutiny for what is perceived to be anti white bias 733 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 6: or something else. How does that actually work though, because 734 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 6: people are the ones who are initially programming this, and 735 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 6: some inherent bias i'm sure. 736 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,239 Speaker 8: Has to be in there. Can that be unlearned by 737 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 8: this technology. 738 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,279 Speaker 10: Yeah, this is going to be very tricky for the 739 00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 10: AI companies to navigate because content it comes back to 740 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:05,640 Speaker 10: content moderation. Essentially, it's very similar issues. Right, you can't 741 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,239 Speaker 10: fail to curate what's going to come out of these 742 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,919 Speaker 10: models and what the public sees can create all kinds 743 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,719 Speaker 10: of problems. But as soon as companies do that, they're 744 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:16,880 Speaker 10: going to be confronted with some of these issues about 745 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 10: whether their interventions, for instance, did have an effect in 746 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,279 Speaker 10: terms of how a gender was portrayed or that sort 747 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 10: of thing. And so I think it's going to be 748 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 10: very difficult for the companies to navigate. But I also 749 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 10: think they're going to be working really hard with the 750 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 10: Trump administration to make sure that they make the case 751 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,520 Speaker 10: that that is not something that holds them back from 752 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 10: releasing a new model, so that I think that there's 753 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,720 Speaker 10: a good chance that the way that it's enforced will 754 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:47,319 Speaker 10: allow them to innovate. But we'll have to see. 755 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:48,840 Speaker 2: I want to try to get to this from a 756 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:50,799 Speaker 2: slightly different angle for a moment, how much of this 757 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,400 Speaker 2: through the eyes of the White House, and what's possible 758 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:55,840 Speaker 2: in say the first one hundred days or even the 759 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 2: next four years for Donald Trump. How much of it 760 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 2: has to do with AI technology or the models that 761 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,719 Speaker 2: you're discussing versus energy. This is the President's going to 762 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,600 Speaker 2: unlock energy and you can't get these data centers powered 763 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,799 Speaker 2: without energy that we apparently do not have when we 764 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:14,439 Speaker 2: talk about nuclear but more immediately natural gas. Is that 765 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,879 Speaker 2: actually the lasting mark that the Trump administration will have 766 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:18,360 Speaker 2: on AI? 767 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,359 Speaker 10: It very well could be, because that is the long 768 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,759 Speaker 10: pole in the tent, or looks to be one of 769 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 10: the long poles in the tent. Just the sheer amount 770 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 10: of energy that's going to be needed, and I think 771 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:30,799 Speaker 10: that they're going to have to take in all the 772 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,520 Speaker 10: above approach. I think obviously with something like nuclear, that's 773 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 10: critical and you know, cutting through the red tape, you know, 774 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,799 Speaker 10: having a permitting process, getting states to approve it. I mean, 775 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:43,880 Speaker 10: I think that's going to be really critical. But there 776 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 10: are some other technologies like geothermal that we're really seeing 777 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,320 Speaker 10: some breakthroughs, and so I think they're going to have 778 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,719 Speaker 10: to be open to all of those possibilities if they're 779 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 10: going to be successful. 780 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 6: Well, so, when we consider here the perhaps deregulating that 781 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,239 Speaker 6: needs to happen in order to accelerate it, whether it's 782 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,759 Speaker 6: energy creation or whether it is actually just development of 783 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,799 Speaker 6: this technology. What is going to be the role of 784 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 6: those outside the White House for some of these other 785 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 6: agencies who are usually typically charged with enforcing regulation. Just 786 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:18,319 Speaker 6: walk us through who the key players to watch here 787 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,320 Speaker 6: are going to be other than like Donald Trump and 788 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 6: David Sex. 789 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,200 Speaker 10: I think it really strengthens the role of agencies like 790 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:29,280 Speaker 10: d OD and the agencies and the intelligence community. Obviously 791 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 10: they're already very powerful, but they are huge customers and 792 00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 10: they're going to use this technology and drive requirements, and 793 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,239 Speaker 10: so I think agencies like that are really going to 794 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,799 Speaker 10: have a huge role in this administration. I think that 795 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,920 Speaker 10: it could have an effect on agencies like the Commerce 796 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,879 Speaker 10: Department and others that would take have taken a more 797 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,239 Speaker 10: regulatory role, looking at things like data centers and AI 798 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,160 Speaker 10: and so it remains to be seen. I think they'll 799 00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:01,320 Speaker 10: have to focus on things like export controls the administration supports. 800 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,759 Speaker 10: But I think this expanded portfolio that you saw under 801 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:07,480 Speaker 10: Gina Romundo, I think is going to narrow up quite 802 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:07,879 Speaker 10: a bit for. 803 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,400 Speaker 2: Those What does that mean for the videos of the world? Then, 804 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:12,399 Speaker 2: where Joe Biden was cracking the whip. When it came 805 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,560 Speaker 2: to export controls, will some of those loosen for companies 806 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 2: making sensitive equipment like GPUs. 807 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 10: I think that's a really good question, and it's going 808 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,799 Speaker 10: to depend. I think that the National security team that 809 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:29,839 Speaker 10: I've seen so far, from National Security Advisor Walts all 810 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,840 Speaker 10: all the way down, are very serious about that issue, 811 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,680 Speaker 10: and our laser focused on it. And it's a question 812 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,799 Speaker 10: of whether the President and others in the West wing 813 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:43,720 Speaker 10: are going to have diplomatic overtures from Beijing and decide 814 00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,480 Speaker 10: in certain cases to go in a different direction. So 815 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,640 Speaker 10: I think the defaults is going to be to impose 816 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,200 Speaker 10: more export controls or at least keep the ones we have, 817 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:56,400 Speaker 10: but we could see individual cases, particularly where suddenly it 818 00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:57,520 Speaker 10: changes on a dime. 819 00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:01,319 Speaker 6: I'd like to ask you as well about PSI security 820 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,880 Speaker 6: in addition to this, as we consider the holistic security 821 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,600 Speaker 6: picture here, knowing, for example, that the Treasury Department was 822 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:11,600 Speaker 6: subject to a hack perpetrated at least it's understood to 823 00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:15,880 Speaker 6: be perpetrated by the Chinese, how do we safeguard against 824 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,160 Speaker 6: that kind of thing happening When we're talking about federal 825 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,880 Speaker 6: systems that are being hacked into what needs to be 826 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:22,920 Speaker 6: done to fortify them to a greater degree. 827 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,640 Speaker 10: So in the case of federal systems, and if you 828 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,000 Speaker 10: look at the Treasury hack, this was an example where 829 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,839 Speaker 10: you had a third party vendor that was mishandling its 830 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,320 Speaker 10: keys that they were providing a tool to the Treasury 831 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:39,560 Speaker 10: Department that allowed it staff, for instance, to remote into computers. 832 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:44,640 Speaker 10: And because they had mishandled their keys, the PRC actors 833 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,120 Speaker 10: were able to get into the unclassified network. And so 834 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,480 Speaker 10: that's an example of how we don't just need the 835 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:54,600 Speaker 10: federal government system secure, we also need those third party vendors. 836 00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:57,880 Speaker 10: This is something that in the late late days of 837 00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,560 Speaker 10: the Biden administration that they started to do with their 838 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:03,919 Speaker 10: procurement power. And one of the things that's interesting if 839 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 10: we contrast is you talked about the AI order being revoked. 840 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:11,919 Speaker 10: They haven't revoked the cybersecurity yeos. And I think that 841 00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,319 Speaker 10: that that doesn't mean they won't make changes, and we 842 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 10: can talk about what changes I would predict they'll make. 843 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,400 Speaker 10: But I think that the framework that has been used 844 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,000 Speaker 10: by the Biden administration, I think there are significant parts 845 00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,000 Speaker 10: of it that they're considering keeping in order to safeguard 846 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:26,560 Speaker 10: the country. 847 00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:30,319 Speaker 2: Does Donald Trump understand these technologies. He talks about, you know, 848 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:35,640 Speaker 2: beautiful AI and being the world uh dominant market for AI, 849 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:40,000 Speaker 2: the biggest developer or is that irrelevant? Does he have 850 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,120 Speaker 2: the know how on his team? 851 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 10: So I've never met him, so I don't I don't 852 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:46,200 Speaker 10: want to speculate too. 853 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,040 Speaker 2: Much fun of lawmakers for not knowing how to go 854 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:53,440 Speaker 2: on social media? Is there an equivalence a year? 855 00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,160 Speaker 10: But but I think that in terms of getting him 856 00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:00,600 Speaker 10: information and in terms of getting him really good options, 857 00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,600 Speaker 10: I think that the National Security staff and the other 858 00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:07,879 Speaker 10: components in the White House will continue that interagency process 859 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,799 Speaker 10: where what comes to his desk is you know, their 860 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,000 Speaker 10: best reflection of what the US should do in the 861 00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:18,480 Speaker 10: context of you know, his approach generally and his. 862 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,080 Speaker 2: Ideologies have Elon Muskin is zero. I guess that helps 863 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:22,239 Speaker 2: well sure. 864 00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:24,239 Speaker 6: And Elon Musk obviously is involved in a lot of 865 00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:27,600 Speaker 6: this technology development to a certain degree. Obviously, now that 866 00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,319 Speaker 6: he's president again, he's once again subject to the kind 867 00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:32,880 Speaker 6: of intelligence that you don't necessarily get when you're outside 868 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,880 Speaker 6: of the White House. What kind of information do you 869 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:39,719 Speaker 6: anticipate he's getting around the technological threats facing the United States, 870 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:41,600 Speaker 6: Whether it's cyber or something else. 871 00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:43,480 Speaker 8: How real is that right now as we speak? 872 00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:47,759 Speaker 10: So he's getting very scary stuff. I mean, I can 873 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:50,000 Speaker 10: tell you from when I came to the NSE that 874 00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:53,160 Speaker 10: it's very disturbing in terms of some of the intrusions 875 00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:57,319 Speaker 10: that could impact public safety. And you know, because we 876 00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:01,200 Speaker 10: have such wonderful government officials that are working every day 877 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,840 Speaker 10: as well as companies working to stop it. But I 878 00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:06,840 Speaker 10: think it's going to be getting a lot of information 879 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:10,600 Speaker 10: on the threats. Obviously I don't know the details. I 880 00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,640 Speaker 10: no longer have a security clearance, and so I think 881 00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:15,680 Speaker 10: I think he'll be getting good information about that. 882 00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,040 Speaker 2: Are these on the level of Salt Typhoon or greater? 883 00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:26,480 Speaker 10: So I think Salt Typhoon is actually a great opportunity 884 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,560 Speaker 10: in some ways because it is a finally a public 885 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:35,040 Speaker 10: example of this advanced persistent threat that we're seeing. It's 886 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:37,960 Speaker 10: a different approach, right, This isn't just somebody breaking in. 887 00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:41,680 Speaker 10: This is somebody squatting and in your walls and in 888 00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:46,239 Speaker 10: your basement and in your ceiling right where they they 889 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:49,479 Speaker 10: gain access to the network, and then they stay there 890 00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:54,920 Speaker 10: and they hoover up Intel financial data, you know, whatever 891 00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,239 Speaker 10: they can and they prepare for the possibility that they 892 00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:02,800 Speaker 10: could use it to disrupt financial markets, to disrupt telecom 893 00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:06,880 Speaker 10: networks and so on, and then the other aspect of 894 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:07,319 Speaker 10: it that. 895 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:10,799 Speaker 8: Sorry, the clock is stopping us. 896 00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:11,240 Speaker 1: OK. 897 00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:13,520 Speaker 2: I want you to come back and have a conversation 898 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:15,279 Speaker 2: about the things that keep you up at night, because 899 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,320 Speaker 2: you're going into some very interesting areas. He agreed to that. Kaylie, 900 00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,840 Speaker 2: We're going to take Matt Pearl, director of the CSIS 901 00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:25,760 Speaker 2: Strategic Technologies Program, making his debut here on Balance of Power. 902 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:32,600 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch 903 00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:36,120 Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on Apple, 904 00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:39,520 Speaker 1: Cocklay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen 905 00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,719 Speaker 1: on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch us 906 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:44,120 Speaker 1: live on YouTube. 907 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,040 Speaker 2: Onto Ashville today for Donald Trump. He has left the 908 00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:51,360 Speaker 2: Bubble Air Force one to Ashville. This is on the 909 00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:55,520 Speaker 2: way to California. It's disaster day for the President. He 910 00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:58,040 Speaker 2: spoke a short time ago of briefing on the damage 911 00:47:58,120 --> 00:47:59,960 Speaker 2: left behind from the hurricanes, realizing this is a couple 912 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,120 Speaker 2: months ago now, and made some pretty controversial remarks about 913 00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:07,480 Speaker 2: FEMA and in terms of California, about the valve we 914 00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:11,839 Speaker 2: talked about the Delta smelt. We'll hear a lot more 915 00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:13,799 Speaker 2: about the poor smelt, I think a little bit later 916 00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:15,960 Speaker 2: on today. He'll get to California in the second half 917 00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:19,200 Speaker 2: of the day. He will likely be speaking soon. As 918 00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:21,480 Speaker 2: we mentioned, they've got a staging area set up for 919 00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:23,160 Speaker 2: the president. A couple of folks are standing by some 920 00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:27,320 Speaker 2: families and RV what appears to be a damaged home, 921 00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:32,319 Speaker 2: and they've got the podium and presidential seal setup for him. 922 00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:34,880 Speaker 2: So we'll keep tabs throughout the day on his travel. 923 00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:38,040 Speaker 2: By the way, this is what day four and a half. 924 00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:40,359 Speaker 2: A lot of people woke up this morning to try 925 00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:44,080 Speaker 2: and remind themselves that it's been only a week, and 926 00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:48,040 Speaker 2: it's been exacerbated by this uncertainty that has followed alive. 927 00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:50,960 Speaker 2: We talked about uncertainty in the markets, right you can't 928 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:52,840 Speaker 2: plan for stuff when you don't know what the tariffs 929 00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,200 Speaker 2: are going to be, the tax cuts. How does the 930 00:48:55,239 --> 00:49:00,279 Speaker 2: Fed plan anything with the idea of incremental tariffs. There's 931 00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:04,399 Speaker 2: just as much uncertainty for hiring managers right now as 932 00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:07,200 Speaker 2: Donald Trump moves to reshape the federal workforce, and there 933 00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:10,840 Speaker 2: could be echo effects in the private workforce. Remembering a 934 00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:13,680 Speaker 2: couple of nights ago, we told you five pm DEI 935 00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:18,040 Speaker 2: offices were shut down. People who worked in them were 936 00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:21,360 Speaker 2: put on paid leave. By the close of business today, 937 00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:24,880 Speaker 2: those managers are expected to put forth paper on how 938 00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,719 Speaker 2: they're going to reduce the workforce. They will likely lose 939 00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:30,640 Speaker 2: their jobs. That could be thousands of people, and it 940 00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:33,840 Speaker 2: could impact programs far beyond the sort of nature that 941 00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:36,680 Speaker 2: you think of with DEI, race and gender. As we've 942 00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:41,839 Speaker 2: told you, this impacts veterans and rural services. So we've 943 00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:43,880 Speaker 2: got a lot of confusion here as the world shifts 944 00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:45,560 Speaker 2: under our feet a bit, which is something that we 945 00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:48,759 Speaker 2: wanted to talk about with an expert. Amyd Frain is 946 00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:52,080 Speaker 2: the founder and CEO of a company called HR Standards 947 00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:57,400 Speaker 2: Institute HRSI. This is a credentialing teaching organization that's geared 948 00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:00,560 Speaker 2: toward the HR world. Is with us now in st Amy. 949 00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:01,200 Speaker 2: Great to see you. 950 00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:02,400 Speaker 11: Great to see you too, Joe. 951 00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:03,840 Speaker 2: Your head spinning. I'm guessing what the rest of us 952 00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:06,960 Speaker 2: is if the world is shifting under your feet and 953 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,799 Speaker 2: you've got this kind of confusion. Let's start with the 954 00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:13,520 Speaker 2: federal workforce, because that's where the President is starting here 955 00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:19,600 Speaker 2: talking about illegal diversity equity inclusion policies. This is something 956 00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:22,200 Speaker 2: that's going to change the face potentially of the federal workforce. 957 00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:24,920 Speaker 2: I don't know what the unions think about this, what 958 00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:25,920 Speaker 2: do you think about it? 959 00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:30,840 Speaker 11: So this is really gray area that we're entering into 960 00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:34,640 Speaker 11: right now, not only for the federal government, but for 961 00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:38,280 Speaker 11: the private sector as well. We're seeing in the federal 962 00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:42,720 Speaker 11: government not just the anti DEI efforts, but the hiring 963 00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:46,919 Speaker 11: freezes that are taking place right now. People are sort 964 00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:50,440 Speaker 11: of struggling with what this means to them. We're seeing 965 00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:54,319 Speaker 11: folks that are having their job offers resended and those 966 00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:59,640 Speaker 11: seasonal employees that come in to help by IRS process paperwork. 967 00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:01,680 Speaker 11: Are you know, they're not going to have those seasonal 968 00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:04,160 Speaker 11: employees based on what we're seeing right now, And there 969 00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:08,640 Speaker 11: absolutely are concerns about these offices being shut down and 970 00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:11,800 Speaker 11: these people losing their jobs around how does this impact 971 00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,680 Speaker 11: unions and what does that mean? Which is huge and 972 00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:18,040 Speaker 11: there are contracts in place, agreements in place, so what 973 00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:22,400 Speaker 11: does that mean for those organizations. It also, when you 974 00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:24,840 Speaker 11: think about all this, you think about the component of 975 00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:27,239 Speaker 11: the morale of the people that are left behind. What 976 00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:29,680 Speaker 11: does that look like for them, you know, how are 977 00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:32,480 Speaker 11: they going to navigate through this? And I think that 978 00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:35,080 Speaker 11: when you think about you talked about the jobs those 979 00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:38,319 Speaker 11: folks that are doing DEI, sixty percent of their roles 980 00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:40,960 Speaker 11: was focused on DEI, but they had other parts of 981 00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:43,759 Speaker 11: their jobs that were non DEI focused. So what is 982 00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:46,160 Speaker 11: what happens to that Where do those functions of their 983 00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:49,800 Speaker 11: responsibilities go. And when you talk about the private sector, 984 00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:54,520 Speaker 11: you're looking at organizations that are shifting their DEI policy. 985 00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:56,479 Speaker 11: This is not in the past four and a half days, 986 00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:59,560 Speaker 11: as you pointed out, but you're looking back for you know, 987 00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:02,319 Speaker 11: the past couple of months or past couple of years 988 00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,359 Speaker 11: of what's been happening in the DEI space. Companies that 989 00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:09,480 Speaker 11: have been pulling back on their DEI efforts like John Deere, 990 00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:13,759 Speaker 11: companies that have been reimagining what DEI looks like like McDonald's, 991 00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:17,840 Speaker 11: and companies that are really digging into deies. Companies like 992 00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:22,600 Speaker 11: JP Morgan, who Jamie Dimond this week talked about refocusing 993 00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:27,080 Speaker 11: and doubling down on their DEI efforts because there is 994 00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:30,200 Speaker 11: profitability in the bottom line for the bank for those efforts. 995 00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:33,040 Speaker 2: Wow, okay, so there's a lot here. You mentioned the unions. 996 00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:36,120 Speaker 2: Why don't we start there. We haven't heard an outcry 997 00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:39,200 Speaker 2: from federal labor unions. I suspect that they're trying to 998 00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:41,160 Speaker 2: figure out the impact of this and what their next 999 00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:44,680 Speaker 2: move is is. Will that be the next call in 1000 00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:45,839 Speaker 2: response here from the UNI. 1001 00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:47,440 Speaker 11: I think that's going to be one of them. 1002 00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:48,880 Speaker 2: They push back on the president. 1003 00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,960 Speaker 11: I think they certainly will. I think they're trying to 1004 00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,600 Speaker 11: figure out the impact of the executive order that was 1005 00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:56,880 Speaker 11: signed on the twenty first. They're really trying to understand 1006 00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:00,360 Speaker 11: what that looks like. I've been seeing and talking to 1007 00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:03,880 Speaker 11: attorneys in the employment space that are really also trying 1008 00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:06,720 Speaker 11: to understand how are we going to advise our clients 1009 00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:10,359 Speaker 11: on what this means from impacts on some of the 1010 00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:12,680 Speaker 11: federal laws that are out there. 1011 00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:16,680 Speaker 2: So for sure, remembering federal government's the biggest employer that's 1012 00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:18,360 Speaker 2: right in the country, and it's not just where you 1013 00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:20,720 Speaker 2: and I are sitting now in Washington, these are federal offices. 1014 00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:23,160 Speaker 2: Sometimes people need to be reminded all over the country, 1015 00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:27,080 Speaker 2: in every state. The echo effect, though, in corporate America 1016 00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:29,080 Speaker 2: is something that I find fascinating, and this hits close 1017 00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:33,640 Speaker 2: to home for you. You consider government contractors for instance. That's right, 1018 00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:36,319 Speaker 2: But even beyond that, you said McDonald's, some of the 1019 00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:40,760 Speaker 2: other companies home depot where DEI pages are going away 1020 00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:44,800 Speaker 2: different approach to business for fear of crossing the president. 1021 00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:46,040 Speaker 2: What's the motivation. 1022 00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:46,439 Speaker 8: Here, right? 1023 00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:49,839 Speaker 11: I think that they are. I think companies are really 1024 00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:53,719 Speaker 11: looking at what's important to them in their culture and 1025 00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:56,640 Speaker 11: their values. I think that's what JP Morgan Chase is doing, 1026 00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:01,480 Speaker 11: That's what Costco is doing, focusing on what are our 1027 00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:04,560 Speaker 11: values and what does that look like? And there will 1028 00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:08,120 Speaker 11: be some risks that these organizations may be facing by 1029 00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:12,120 Speaker 11: really doubling down on their efforts for DEI, but it's 1030 00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:16,120 Speaker 11: part of their bottom line. They're seeing results from that, 1031 00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:19,000 Speaker 11: and they want to reflect their customers. They are hearing 1032 00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:21,480 Speaker 11: from their customers that this is important, So all those 1033 00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:26,799 Speaker 11: things will continue to be focused. As for the private employer. 1034 00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:30,359 Speaker 2: The EO that I mentioned directs federal agencies as well. 1035 00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:32,400 Speaker 2: It's to create a list of companies. It's like kind 1036 00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:34,520 Speaker 2: of a black list of companies to be targeted for 1037 00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:39,880 Speaker 2: potential investigations for what again is being called illegal DEI practices. 1038 00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,600 Speaker 2: Is this a labor story or is this a legal story? 1039 00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:45,759 Speaker 2: Because these companies have the lawyer up. 1040 00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:46,359 Speaker 8: That's right. 1041 00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:47,360 Speaker 2: I think it's both. 1042 00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:50,719 Speaker 11: I think it is a story about labor, but I 1043 00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:53,200 Speaker 11: think it's also a legal story, and a lot of 1044 00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:57,200 Speaker 11: this is going to be litigated from both the private 1045 00:54:57,200 --> 00:55:01,040 Speaker 11: employers and for the federal government as they're focused on 1046 00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:07,560 Speaker 11: these long embedded laws and practices that companies have embedded 1047 00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:10,880 Speaker 11: in their cultures, federal contractors being one of them. I 1048 00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:15,239 Speaker 11: mean they have redesigned and are redesigning their uh the 1049 00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:18,240 Speaker 11: contracts that they're putting in to service the federal government, 1050 00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:20,560 Speaker 11: and they're having to reimagine that. So this is a 1051 00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:25,960 Speaker 11: really a challenging time to be an HR. Yes, HR 1052 00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:28,480 Speaker 11: is up for the challenge because HR has done a 1053 00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:32,360 Speaker 11: lot with the gray area out there from COVID to 1054 00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:36,919 Speaker 11: return to work to machine learning and AI and. 1055 00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:39,600 Speaker 2: This is so your phone's ringing. Obviously if it's time 1056 00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:43,719 Speaker 2: to consult an HR executive or department, we're going to 1057 00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:48,479 Speaker 2: go hire Amy and talk about this. Do you tell 1058 00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:51,279 Speaker 2: them to hold on because we don't know what's going on? 1059 00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:54,760 Speaker 2: Is it slow the role? Because I don't think anybody 1060 00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:56,680 Speaker 2: has this. So we just had one order, for instance, 1061 00:55:56,719 --> 00:55:59,560 Speaker 2: on birthright citizenship overturned yesterday in court. We could be 1062 00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:01,440 Speaker 2: in a complete different world two weeks from now, that's right. 1063 00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:02,799 Speaker 2: How do you make a plan for anything. 1064 00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:05,000 Speaker 11: That's right? Well, I think you know, I've been talking 1065 00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,560 Speaker 11: to folks who are losing their jobs right now because 1066 00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:10,879 Speaker 11: they were doing DEI work for the federal government. So 1067 00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:14,600 Speaker 11: that's obviously happening right now. I think in the in 1068 00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:18,000 Speaker 11: the private sector, I think those organizations need to continue 1069 00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:21,600 Speaker 11: to focus on what's important for values and their culture. 1070 00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:24,960 Speaker 11: And you know, there's risk in all business decisions, right, 1071 00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:26,560 Speaker 11: So how are you going to make sure that you 1072 00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:30,400 Speaker 11: are doing the best for your organization and you have 1073 00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:33,560 Speaker 11: your shareholders and or your board behind we do we end. 1074 00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:36,840 Speaker 2: Up with two classes of companies, those with DEI programs 1075 00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:37,600 Speaker 2: and those without. 1076 00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:39,960 Speaker 11: I think we're already there, yeah, and we have seen that. 1077 00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:41,480 Speaker 2: I mean, some will hold the line. 1078 00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:42,399 Speaker 8: Though, that's right, that's right. 1079 00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:45,600 Speaker 11: Well, I think it's just what's important to their culture, right, 1080 00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:49,480 Speaker 11: what's important to them as a business, and what they 1081 00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:53,040 Speaker 11: value and where you know, there's a lot of research 1082 00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:56,960 Speaker 11: out there that shows that organizations that invest and have 1083 00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:00,000 Speaker 11: a diverse workforce, their bottom line profits are better. 1084 00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:01,760 Speaker 8: The proof is in the data. 1085 00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:04,040 Speaker 2: Okay, So that that brings us back to Wall Street. 1086 00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:09,239 Speaker 2: Then you said the shareholders? Do shareholders consider this when 1087 00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:13,920 Speaker 2: they make investments? That's a long walk for side folks 1088 00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:16,000 Speaker 2: on Wall Street how to connect those thoughts that is? 1089 00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:19,280 Speaker 11: It's so there have been there have been pushes from 1090 00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:22,880 Speaker 11: the SEC on this. I think right now that's you know, 1091 00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:25,240 Speaker 11: sort of off the table with this new administration and 1092 00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:27,840 Speaker 11: looking at how do we value the human capital on 1093 00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:31,000 Speaker 11: a balance sheet? What does that look like? Because organizations 1094 00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:33,880 Speaker 11: have been saying on their publicly reported documents that they 1095 00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:37,520 Speaker 11: have a diverse workforce, but what does that mean? How 1096 00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:41,040 Speaker 11: is that defined? And I think some organizations have been 1097 00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:44,160 Speaker 11: really good at valuing that and others have just made 1098 00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:46,680 Speaker 11: like in statements about what that means and looks like. 1099 00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:48,600 Speaker 11: So I think this is the time for organizations to 1100 00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:52,360 Speaker 11: really dig deep and to look at their values and 1101 00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:53,400 Speaker 11: what's important to them. 1102 00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:55,040 Speaker 2: So what's your time frame when when you have your 1103 00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:57,000 Speaker 2: arms around this? Is it first one hundred days for you? 1104 00:57:57,120 --> 00:57:57,800 Speaker 2: Like everyone else? 1105 00:57:57,920 --> 00:58:00,520 Speaker 11: Yeah, I think this is you know a lot of 1106 00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:02,400 Speaker 11: this is going to get caught up in litigation, so 1107 00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:04,640 Speaker 11: it's going to be a lot longer than one hundred days. 1108 00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:07,480 Speaker 11: But I think organizations are going to have to be 1109 00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:11,400 Speaker 11: paying really close attention to what is what the president 1110 00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:13,440 Speaker 11: is saying, and what's coming out of this administration. 1111 00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:15,280 Speaker 2: Great, I'm really glad you could come by. Let's do 1112 00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:17,480 Speaker 2: this again when we learn morely, it's great to have 1113 00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:21,520 Speaker 2: the voice of experience in Amy Dufrain hrsi HR Standards 1114 00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:29,480 Speaker 2: Institute for you to remember. Many thanks. Thanks for listening 1115 00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:32,800 Speaker 2: to the Balance of Power podcast. Make sure to subscribe 1116 00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:35,760 Speaker 2: if you haven't already, Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get 1117 00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:38,800 Speaker 2: your podcasts, and you can find us live every weekday 1118 00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:42,600 Speaker 2: from Washington, DC at noontime Eastern at Bloomberg dot com.