Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question.
Speaker 1: Oh my. Here we are a little more than a
Speaker 1: week after the election by the time this podcast drops,
Speaker 1: and I don't know about you all, but I'm still
Speaker 1: kind of shaking my head, wondering how this happened, what
Speaker 1: went wrong or right for depending on where you stand,
Speaker 1: what the Democratic Party did wrong? What did the Harris
Speaker 1: campaign perhaps do wrong. I've read so many analysis pieces
Speaker 1: I can't even tell you from all different publications. Probably
Speaker 1: some of my followers will think, well, Katie, you're reading
Speaker 1: publications that confirm your pre existing beliefs, and if that's true,
Speaker 1: guilty is charged. I probably have been reading those publications.
Speaker 1: But I felt like one of the best people we
Speaker 1: could talk to about all of this is my friend Jensaki.
Speaker 1: Jen of course, served under two administrations, the Obama administration
Speaker 1: the Biden administration, and now she is crushing it over
Speaker 1: at MSNBC. I think she's a really welcome and much
Speaker 1: needed voice. Although we can talk about the media as
Speaker 1: well with Jen. Jen, gosh, Hi so much to discuss.
Speaker 2: How are you?
Speaker 3: I mean, Hi, I have spent the last several days
Speaker 3: just as ever. Probably anyone listening has really thinking about
Speaker 3: all of the things you just said, reading so many pieces.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of takes out there. A lot of
Speaker 3: them are bad, but some of them are interesting. And
Speaker 3: what I've tried to really force myself to do in
Speaker 3: this moment is be humble about what I misread and
Speaker 3: what I didn't see, what many of us misread. I'm
Speaker 3: not the only one, and what it tells us about
Speaker 3: a huge disconnect out there from the party with There
Speaker 3: are a lot of reasons.
Speaker 2: Why yes, but I have so many.
Speaker 3: I've tried to be very introspective about that and not blame.
Speaker 3: I think there's also a lot of blame gaming going
Speaker 3: on out there, which I don't think. That doesn't mean
Speaker 3: you can't be critical. It just means people who say
Speaker 3: this is the fault of all white women, it's like
Speaker 3: we're fault of Latinos. It's like, as you know, Katie,
Speaker 3: that's not how democracy works. I mean, people decide who
Speaker 3: they want to vote for based on who they think
Speaker 3: is going to best represent their views. You either move
Speaker 3: people to do that or you don't. So that's what
Speaker 3: I've spent the last couple of days. For me, it's
Speaker 3: like digging into it and studying and being in the
Speaker 3: research phase, and that's where I feel like I am
Speaker 3: in this moment.
Speaker 1: I also think it's going to be helpful, Jen. I
Speaker 1: think when you started at MSNBC, correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 1: I have this bonehead idea. I was like, Jen, why
Speaker 1: don't you do your show every weekend from a different location.
Speaker 1: Why don't you go to the middle of the country.
Speaker 1: Why don't you do the show from Dayton, Ohio. Why
Speaker 1: don't you do the show from Houston, Texas. Why don't
Speaker 1: you better references what the American people are thinking and feeling. Now,
Speaker 1: of course I'm patting myself on the back for that idea,
Speaker 1: but honestly, I think you're right. I think that the
Speaker 1: media is occupied by coastal elites who pretty much all
Speaker 1: went to pretty good schools. They don't represent a real
Speaker 1: diversity of backgrounds socioeconomically anyway. And that's not true. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm making a generalization here, but for the most part,
Speaker 1: and I just feel like they're also not reporting out
Speaker 1: in the field as much. I mean, one of the
Speaker 1: things that bugs me when I watch cable news, and
Speaker 1: by the way, we're talking about very small percentage of
Speaker 1: the population that's actually watching cable news these days. Is
Speaker 1: I never see them talking to real people. They're always
Speaker 1: sitting at a desk, you know, doing a lot of
Speaker 1: naval gazing. I mean that's not to say I don't
Speaker 1: really appreciate hearing what these very smart people have to say.
Speaker 1: You know, I love your show, Jen, I love hearing
Speaker 1: you talk to people. But it does feel like it
Speaker 1: is just not touching and not talking and not sharing
Speaker 1: stories of people's lives. And it's just gotten very super
Speaker 1: high level, and nobody seems to be really rolling up
Speaker 1: their sleeves and getting out there in the country and
Speaker 1: talking to voters.
Speaker 3: Yeah. There's a lot of reasons for that too, as
Speaker 3: you know. I mean, one thing that's expensive. It's expensive.
Speaker 3: That's one of them. And I remember us talking about that.
Speaker 3: And I have tried to go out as much as
Speaker 3: I can and actually spent I mean, I was in
Speaker 3: Michigan a week before the election. I've gone out on
Speaker 3: the road with candidates. You do have actual I was
Speaker 3: in New Hampshire for days around the Republican primary, and
Speaker 3: to your point, you do have actual, real conversations that
Speaker 3: make you question and think. One of the things I've
Speaker 3: thought a lot about And I can only speak for
Speaker 3: myself and how I approach things moving forward is that
Speaker 3: you get into an easy cycle of what is your
Speaker 3: reaction to this crazy thing Trump said? What is your
Speaker 3: reaction to that crazy thing? Trump said? And as you know,
Speaker 3: and I'd be interested in your thought on this, for
Speaker 3: given your long history, he is still a story. He's
Speaker 3: the president elect of the United States. People can't not
Speaker 3: cover him or not talk about him. But I do
Speaker 3: wonder if the react to the crazy thing he said
Speaker 3: is the most informative and right way that we should
Speaker 3: be approaching things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think a lot of people are looking at that,
Speaker 1: did journalists And by the way, you know, we'll talk
Speaker 1: about this. Media is so fragmented. I always say mass
Speaker 1: media is now at oxymoron. So when you even say
Speaker 1: the media, who and what are you talking about? But
Speaker 1: I see your point. I think often they missed the
Speaker 1: forest for the trees, because I think the focus was
Speaker 1: probably a little bit more on the candidate and his
Speaker 1: outrageous behavior instead of the fans and the people who
Speaker 1: were gravitating and attracted to him and why. But wouldn't
Speaker 1: it have been interesting if you had taken a Trump's
Speaker 1: support order a week and really gone home with that
Speaker 1: person and talked about their lives and talked about, you know,
Speaker 1: what they were worried about, and talked about how they
Speaker 1: were struggling to raise their kids, or talked about all
Speaker 1: kinds of things. You know, this feeling of global insecurity
Speaker 1: and pain for all these wars when we have so
Speaker 1: many problems at home. I think it might have been
Speaker 1: really illuminating.
Speaker 2: Jin Well.
Speaker 3: I also think certainly longtime Trump supporters are part of it, absolutely,
Speaker 3: But I also think for the Democratic Party and also
Speaker 3: for the media in a different way, And I want
Speaker 3: to come back to that in a second. It's people
Speaker 3: who left the Democratic Party who had long supported Democratic
Speaker 3: candidates or Democratic policies and decided they weren't being heard anymore.
Speaker 3: And those people maybe they stayed home. Maybe they voted
Speaker 3: for Trump, but maybe they didn't vote at all. And
Speaker 3: there's a group that I feel like wasn't heard or
Speaker 3: listened to either.
Speaker 1: But that's not a new phenomenon, Jen, I mean, we've
Speaker 1: seen sort of this, this shift by blue collar, working
Speaker 1: class folks in this country moving towards the Republican Party.
Speaker 1: And maybe it would have looked hollow. But I have
Speaker 1: a friend and we talk about this stuff all the time.
Speaker 1: We were like, why isn't Kamala Harris going out and
Speaker 1: talking to more factory workers. Why isn't she like putting
Speaker 1: on a hard hat and really talking to people everyday
Speaker 1: people a little bit more. I think she could have
Speaker 1: done that throughout the administration. But what were we talking about.
Speaker 3: I have so many things on my headshet and I
Speaker 3: don't want to get off topic of What we were
Speaker 3: talking about is like having the conversations with the people
Speaker 3: who really I mean. The other thing I think and
Speaker 3: I don't want to get off the topic of working
Speaker 3: class voters because I think that is a big Yes,
Speaker 3: you're right, the trends have been moving. In the trends
Speaker 3: they've been moving. I do think this was a very
Speaker 3: startling outcome in terms of the big shifts among many
Speaker 3: different demographic groups, Latino men, young people. I mean, it
Speaker 3: was not just one, it was not just white working
Speaker 3: class voters. It was beyond right, which I think is
Speaker 3: something that's important to be part of the conversation. The
Speaker 3: other thing I think that's important to reflect on is
Speaker 3: just a misread of abortion politics and what I mean
Speaker 3: by that is, the majority of the country does believe
Speaker 3: in a woman's right to make choices about her own healthcare,
Speaker 3: bodily autonomy, whatever you want to call it, abortion whatever.
Speaker 3: Seven states voted to protect abortion rights and still voted
Speaker 3: for Trump, right, and there was this assumption. I'm not
Speaker 3: the only one, but I'm just reflecting on my own
Speaker 3: assumptions that were inaccurate, that both people who voted to
Speaker 3: protect it or felt strongly about it would recognize that
Speaker 3: he was a person who opposed it, and that's not.
Speaker 2: True, and why didn't they?
Speaker 3: I am also a believer. We don't know all the
Speaker 3: answers yet. So this is how I've thought about it
Speaker 3: to day. How I've thought about it to date is
Speaker 3: either there is a belief that he wasn't a believer
Speaker 3: in abortion band and he sort of said different iterations
Speaker 3: of that over the course of time, despite his role
Speaker 3: in nominating Supreme Court justices who did implement that policy
Speaker 3: or did rule that way. People may have just this
Speaker 3: is why it's interesting talk to these people, and I
Speaker 3: don't know. This is why I don't know the answer yet.
Speaker 3: May have made had the view that I can protect
Speaker 3: abortion rights this way, but I still think the economy
Speaker 3: is nobody's hearing me, and he hears me better, so
Speaker 3: I'm going to do both. I'm not sure. I don't
Speaker 3: know that we entirely know, but I think there was
Speaker 3: an overconfidence because of these special elections and because of
Speaker 3: the midterms where there is a smaller turnout, So perhaps
Speaker 3: the more exercised, excited people turn out, and a belief
Speaker 3: it was going to replicate itself. It didn't. There's a
Speaker 3: lesson in that somewhere. And I don't think we know
Speaker 3: all the answers yet.
Speaker 1: I don't think he does give out the vibe, if
Speaker 1: you will, which seems to be the word of the year,
Speaker 1: that he feels super strongly about limiting abortion rights.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: I think people see his lifestyle, but then you do
Speaker 1: look at the Supreme Court, then you do look at JD.
Speaker 1: Vance and you're like, how can you not be worried
Speaker 1: about this? And you know it's interesting. I know Ronald
Speaker 1: Reagan is how old I am, jen and you know
Speaker 1: he campaigned a lot on restricting abortion, I think in
Speaker 1: order to win over the evangelical vote, and then once
Speaker 1: in office, he basically made it Priority number seventy nine,
Speaker 1: like nothing was really ever done about it, So maybe
Speaker 1: people just since from Donald Trump, this wasn't an issue
Speaker 1: he cared about. But on the other hand, Jen, I mean, hello,
Speaker 1: you look at the Supreme Court justices and you look
Speaker 1: at you know, Dobbs, and you're thinking, wait, how can
Speaker 1: you compartmentalize these things?
Speaker 3: That is my question. And in what's different now from
Speaker 3: the Reagan administration is, of course that the DBS decision happened.
Speaker 3: So states have the ability, as you know, and you've
Speaker 3: been talking about, to put in place their own laws,
Speaker 3: and we've seen the impact of those. So when Trump
Speaker 3: or Jade Vans or whomever it may be, says it
Speaker 3: should go back to the states, well we see how
Speaker 3: that goes. What it means is we have a country
Speaker 3: where half the states have restrictive laws that could lead
Speaker 3: to deaths in some cases women having sepsist, doctors being prosecuted,
Speaker 3: and half the states that don't. And that's what's also different.
Speaker 1: But why didn't that resonate with more people? Which brings
Speaker 1: me back to the information ecosystem. Yeah, you know, I
Speaker 1: mean I think it is so fragmented. You can create
Speaker 1: your own digital diet or media diet, and you know,
Speaker 1: I heard so many people saying, well, it's fine to
Speaker 1: let the states decide as if the people of those
Speaker 1: states would be in a position. Well, they were in
Speaker 1: some cases right with a referenda that were voted on
Speaker 1: this go round. But somehow these stories did not penetrate
Speaker 1: or did not get through a lot of voters about
Speaker 1: the dangers of leaving it to states who would prohibit
Speaker 1: abortion even in cases of rape, incest or when the
Speaker 1: mother's life is in danger. There are states like that
Speaker 1: out there, right chen.
Speaker 3: Now, I think I have some ends I don't have,
Speaker 3: but I'll just be like a kumble about the place
Speaker 3: I don't have answers. And this is the place I
Speaker 3: feel like I need to do more studying and understanding.
Speaker 3: Is the disinformation space. I do think that unquestionably to me,
Speaker 3: you know, one of the things that's changed even since
Speaker 3: I got involved in politics is just the rise of
Speaker 3: the percentage of people who get their information off of
Speaker 3: platforms that have no fact checking mechanism and no accountability
Speaker 3: for having disinformation spread right right, And as you know, well,
Speaker 3: and I mean when I got started in democratic politics,
Speaker 3: you know, most of it was like local TV ads.
Speaker 3: That was what it was about. Obviously national TV, local print,
Speaker 3: local TV is held to a higher standard of accountability
Speaker 3: than social media platforms in terms of having accurate information
Speaker 3: on their platforms. That is crazy, And so it is,
Speaker 3: how does it change, How are people held to account?
Speaker 3: Laws have to change. I don't even know the total
Speaker 3: answer to it, but that seems to me to be
Speaker 3: a core issue. The other issue I think that is
Speaker 3: a real one is I don't think Joe Rogan deserves
Speaker 3: like one hundred percent credit of love Donald Trump being elected,
Speaker 3: but it was a misunderstanding of kind of also how
Speaker 3: people are getting their information and an undervaluing of some
Speaker 3: of those platforms that Trump was doing that either don't
Speaker 3: really exist on the other side or not in those
Speaker 3: not in the numbers exactly exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, And I also think, I mean, again, my
Speaker 1: head is swimming with so many with so many things
Speaker 1: that I've been trying to process over the last few days.
Speaker 1: You know, there's this whole theory about a huge backlash
Speaker 1: by young men and some older men, and perhaps that
Speaker 1: explained some of the Latino vote to this idea that
Speaker 1: women are making so many more strides. I mean, ostensibly,
Speaker 1: you look at medical schools and law schools and that
Speaker 1: you know, there was me too, there was Black Lives Matter,
Speaker 1: and suddenly I think people were still angry about affirmative
Speaker 1: action when it was in place, and they're sort of like,
Speaker 1: I thought this country was a meritocracy, and now I'm
Speaker 1: feeling screwed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think the feeling screwed takes many forms, right,
Speaker 3: And maybe people who it is sexism for wouldn't even
Speaker 3: admit to themselves that it's sexism, right.
Speaker 2: I think that's so right, Jen.
Speaker 1: I think that some people don't even recognize their implicit bias.
Speaker 1: I have a friend who said, I'm just worried that
Speaker 1: Kamala Harris doesn't have the stature to deal with world
Speaker 1: leaders And I thought, wow, this was a very successful woman,
Speaker 1: and I thought, maybe just replace stature with penis.
Speaker 2: Yes, I was so honestly so.
Speaker 3: That maybe replace stature with phenis got the mate out there.
Speaker 1: But it was so it was so perplexing to me,
Speaker 1: and I was like, Oh, this this is someone who
Speaker 1: doesn't realize her deep seated implicit bias against female leadership.
Speaker 3: Yes, and that is of it's so hard to measure
Speaker 3: because people don't even admit it to themselves, right, and
Speaker 3: it is I mean, in my on the Latino men
Speaker 3: part of this, which I think there's not one answer for.
Speaker 1: But I agree, and I think we have to be
Speaker 1: careful stratifying society and the way we do with polls.
Speaker 1: I think Mike Murphy, I heard John Heilman say this
Speaker 1: on Bill Maher. So I'm quoting a quote of a quote,
Speaker 1: but Mike Murphy said, you know, when are we going
Speaker 1: to just call Latino men men? I mean it almost
Speaker 1: underscores or exacerbates this notion of identity politics, right.
Speaker 3: Yes, And I think you know it depends on also,
Speaker 3: like no group is monolithic. Women are not monolithic. Clearly
Speaker 3: white women are not monolithic. But Latino men are not
Speaker 3: monolithic either. And the thing that Latino men in Florida
Speaker 3: might be grappling with, including like this notion of you know,
Speaker 3: socialism and communism and what it means if you came
Speaker 3: from a country where that was a dominant issue like Cuba,
Speaker 3: right in Cuba. And also Christina Landon, I'm going to
Speaker 3: quote someone now who sits next to me. She's a Telemundo,
Speaker 3: longtime Telemundo reporter, and I had dinner with her maybe
Speaker 3: three nights before the election, and she said to me
Speaker 3: something that stuck with me, which is like, sometimes the
Speaker 3: issues that democrats think are going to work for them,
Speaker 3: like democracy and abortion rights, work the reverse way amongst
Speaker 3: someone because there's sometimes more conservative social values. Anyway, It's
Speaker 3: my point is there's not a monolithic take here. I've
Speaker 3: also in my kind of research studying phase of this
Speaker 3: because this is my coping mechanism. Yeah, I've been reading
Speaker 3: Foala Ramos's book. It's called The Defectors, and it's about
Speaker 3: the Latino men who have become maga and why now
Speaker 3: it's not She's very, very humble in the book, but
Speaker 3: it's not conclusive. But part of it she talks about
Speaker 3: identity and identifying as an American versus identifying as an immigrant,
Speaker 3: and that's an interesting part of the conversation too. But
Speaker 3: I don't know the total answer, but I think it's
Speaker 3: one that is worth everyone continuing to learn and explore
Speaker 3: and listen more about.
Speaker 1: I think that's true because I think often these pundits
Speaker 1: make these pronouncements right that are too general, that treat
Speaker 1: communities as monolithic and not as separate people, you know,
Speaker 1: separate even individual people and families, right, who have had
Speaker 1: very different experiences, as you said, certainly within the Latino community.
Speaker 1: If you want to get smarter every morning with a
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Speaker 1: Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. What
Speaker 1: do you think about all the finger pointing at wokeness?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 1: First of five, I hate that word, and I feel
Speaker 1: like it's been a bit overstated, but there does seem
Speaker 1: to be an increasing intolerance for being told how you're
Speaker 1: supposed to think and being told you're less than because
Speaker 1: you don't think a certain way.
Speaker 3: I think that's it for me, and again I don't,
Speaker 3: But how I've thought about it is nobody likes to
Speaker 3: be condescended to or told that they have to hit
Speaker 3: a certain litmus test of things to be welcomed and
Speaker 3: invited in the party. And I think sometimes people feel
Speaker 3: that way about the Democratic Party. And I do think
Speaker 3: that some of the positions that Vice President Harris took
Speaker 3: when she was running for president in twenty nineteen, which
Speaker 3: I actually don't think are her positions because they weren't
Speaker 3: before and they weren't after. And there's an inauthenticity to
Speaker 3: that six months of her life, right, But which is
Speaker 3: a lesson for lots of people running for office. Be
Speaker 3: authentic to what you believe.
Speaker 1: Yeah, my sister used to say. I don't know if
Speaker 1: you knew my sister was running for lieutenant governor with
Speaker 1: I think you and I have talked about this with
Speaker 1: Mark Warner. And then she got diagnosed with pancreatic cancer
Speaker 1: and had to drop out, sadly tragically. And you know,
Speaker 1: Emily used to say to me, when you run for office,
Speaker 1: you have to be willing to lose. I think what
Speaker 1: she meant is you have got to adhere to your
Speaker 1: core values who you are as a person, and if
Speaker 1: you lose, then you're not meant to win. And you know,
Speaker 1: and I so respected that, and I think it speaks
Speaker 1: to as you were saying the twenty nineteen positions. But
Speaker 1: can I just add something, Jen, because I wonder if
Speaker 1: you've also thought about this. Seems to me people kind
Speaker 1: of forget that moment in time too. I mean it
Speaker 1: was sort of right on the heels of me too,
Speaker 1: right on the heels of Black Lives Matter. I think
Speaker 1: there were forces that were pulling everybody and I don't
Speaker 1: want to necessarily to say to the left, but maybe
Speaker 1: it was to the left. But this kind of realization,
Speaker 1: this feeling that you know, if you're a white American,
Speaker 1: you're to blame and there's something wrong with you, and
Speaker 1: that you're part of the problem, and you know, the
Speaker 1: whole Karen thing and all that. I wonder if her
Speaker 1: positions were in a way informed by that environment that
Speaker 1: we were experiencing, and that this election in a way
Speaker 1: was a repudiation or an expression of some of those feelings.
Speaker 2: Does that make sense at all?
Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, I think there is a huge swath of
Speaker 3: the population voters, voters i should say, who didn't feel
Speaker 3: heard or connected with the Democratic Party messaging and the
Speaker 3: top of the ticket. And that is not it's a
Speaker 3: divided country all the things. But there are policy issues
Speaker 3: that should be helpful to the very same people who
Speaker 3: voted against the Democratic Party platform and ticket right, including
Speaker 3: advocacy for a minimum wage, including like raising taxes on
Speaker 3: the highest income in corporate America. So that disconnect tells
Speaker 3: you it's about something bigger, Right, It's about feeling left
Speaker 3: out of the party, not feeling heard, feeling ignored. There
Speaker 3: are lots of things that could be the reasoning for it.
Speaker 3: But yes, I do think that is certainly a part
Speaker 3: of it. You know, I also think there have been
Speaker 3: some major shifts, and immigration is one of them. And
Speaker 3: this is where I'm kind of like my personal views aside.
Speaker 3: You'd have to put them aside when you're looking at
Speaker 3: the political spectrum, right, immigration and the issue has become
Speaker 3: the country has become increasingly conservative on that issue, right.
Speaker 3: And I look at even the bipartisan border bill that
Speaker 3: obviously didn't move forward, that was an incredibly conservative bill.
Speaker 2: I know.
Speaker 1: I wish they had made a point of how Trump
Speaker 1: convinced Republicans not to even vote on it because it
Speaker 1: would weaken his ability to weaponize immigration.
Speaker 2: They've made me so mad.
Speaker 3: I may yes they tried. It always felt like a
Speaker 3: hard message to me, not in a fair way, but
Speaker 3: because you're explaining, like how he prevented a legislative process
Speaker 3: from moving forward. But what stuck out to me about
Speaker 3: that bill is I think only five or six Democratic
Speaker 3: senators voted against it. I think it would have been
Speaker 3: twenty or twenty five a couple of years ago. So
Speaker 3: to your point about where kind of the shifts have been,
Speaker 3: that's one of the areas. And remember that same twenty
Speaker 3: nineteen primary was when nearly everybody on stage raised their
Speaker 3: hand that they would decriminalize border crossings. Right. The politics
Speaker 3: on that have changed a lot, and I think it
Speaker 3: is also related to feeling ignored, left behind by a
Speaker 3: broad swath of working class America. That's part of Also.
Speaker 1: I think it might be reflected by you know what
Speaker 1: was mostly derided by some of those border states and
Speaker 1: governors in terms of taking some of these immigrants and
Speaker 1: putting them on planes and sending them to New York
Speaker 1: City and sending them to other areas around the world.
Speaker 1: And I remember I have a friend who's pretty conservative
Speaker 1: who lives in Florida, and I said, what do you
Speaker 1: think of that? And she said, I thought it was great.
Speaker 1: And I think the point is that, you know, listen,
Speaker 1: we can't have completely porous borders, right, you know, there
Speaker 1: has to be some system for immigration. And I think
Speaker 1: one of the other things that was undercovered was the
Speaker 1: strain on social services that a huge influx. And now,
Speaker 1: of course it's not they're eating the dogs, they're eating
Speaker 1: the cats situation in that gross, you know, bigoted way,
Speaker 1: But there is a genuine concern for I think a
Speaker 1: lot of these communities that can absorb the number of
Speaker 1: people who are coming in, and it can lead to
Speaker 1: more homelessness, you know, as you know, and I think
Speaker 1: it constrains school systems and hospitals. So, you know, I
Speaker 1: would have liked to have seen that story be told
Speaker 1: and then talk to the candidates about like what should
Speaker 1: be done and along those lines. Since you were in
Speaker 1: the Biden administration, why didn't they do more? And why
Speaker 1: when he was elected jin was there almost a reversal
Speaker 1: almost to come on in This is my impression and
Speaker 1: you can correct the record if I'm wrong. Sort of
Speaker 1: this overreaction to the build the Wall rhetoric that led
Speaker 1: to too big of an influx immigrants, you know, getting
Speaker 1: rid of the remain in Mexico policy and all those things.
Speaker 1: So was that kind of an f you to Trump?
Speaker 1: And in retrospect, was that not the right thing to do?
Speaker 3: Well? So a lot of things on this I think
Speaker 3: sort of everybody's at fault in Washington in some ways
Speaker 3: because immigration is such a politically charged issue that people
Speaker 3: are unwilling to compromise on it and have real negotiations
Speaker 3: and discussions about it. I mean, Biden proposed an immigration
Speaker 3: bill that included increased border security and a more humane
Speaker 3: asylum processing the first day, right right, no one would
Speaker 3: discuss it, No one would come to the White House
Speaker 3: and meet with him about it. I'm not saying that
Speaker 3: he's blameless. I'm just saying like that tells you a
Speaker 3: lot about politics. Often brought that up during the campaign. Yeah,
Speaker 3: that is true. What is also true is that because
Speaker 3: the COVID restrictions were in place for so long, that
Speaker 3: was in many ways artificially keeping the numbers lower until
Speaker 3: they were flipped back. And then during that period of time,
Speaker 3: there was the negotiation with Mexico about re implementing the
Speaker 3: Remain in Mexico program, which was there was a lot
Speaker 3: of criticism of and a lot of people who hated that,
Speaker 3: especially from the left. So I think there was a
Speaker 3: delayed reaction to where clearly the country was moving on
Speaker 3: immigration by I don't actually not really Joe Biden, but
Speaker 3: a lot of people in the system and the Democratic
Speaker 3: Party within the caucuses, and it wasn't very clear to
Speaker 3: me that it had moved massively until that bipartisan border bill.
Speaker 3: So yes, hindsight's always twenty twenty. But I think looking now,
Speaker 3: there are aspects of how the party should proceed from
Speaker 3: here which I think this election should be partly informative about,
Speaker 3: including acknowledging that the bore and having a secure border
Speaker 3: is a part of what the Democratic Party messaging needs
Speaker 3: to be proactively, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, though, I think we should point
Speaker 1: out how Donald Trump and the party exploited the immigration
Speaker 1: issue with false information about the crimes that were committed
Speaker 1: and really misrepresented the fact that actually immigrants commit fewer
Speaker 1: crimes than native foreign citizens in this country. But I
Speaker 1: think it just got so twisted and exploited, and the
Speaker 1: fear and the you know, fentanyl and all that stuff.
Speaker 1: I think it got mixed up in one big bowl
Speaker 1: and made people just terrified, and to the point where
Speaker 1: for a lot of Americans, rounding up people and having
Speaker 1: a mass deportation of thirteen million immigrants sounded like a
Speaker 1: good idea, which.
Speaker 3: Is wrapping my head around that particular conclusion is one
Speaker 3: that's been a particular, a very perplexing one to grapple.
Speaker 3: I mean, when you also listen to focus groups and things,
Speaker 3: people will when they learn more about it, they don't
Speaker 3: love it, right, So, which is a relief, I suppose.
Speaker 3: But I'm glad you brought all of that up. And
Speaker 3: I think that the pieces of this that this is
Speaker 3: a perfect disinformation example, right. I mean, actually, the border
Speaker 3: numbers have been down over the last couple of months.
Speaker 1: And I even looked up last night, you know about crimes,
Speaker 1: you know, the crime rate among the immigrant population, and
Speaker 1: I thought I would see what I saw with my
Speaker 1: own eyes, but that it was just incredibly and cruelly
Speaker 1: manipulated by the Trump campaign to a point that it
Speaker 1: was really grotesque.
Speaker 3: Yeah, as has crime numbers in major cities, which is
Speaker 3: not where actually crime has gone up. And there is
Speaker 3: also we are still the United States of America, where
Speaker 3: we are a country of immigrants, right. There is still
Speaker 3: a humanity side of this that I know.
Speaker 1: But it's it's really it's perplexing and disturbing that. You know,
Speaker 1: I saw something on social media. You might have seen
Speaker 1: it too, Jen, because I have a feeling we're probably
Speaker 1: fed the same content. But it was I think it
Speaker 1: was an Asian comedian who was interviewing a white guy,
Speaker 1: probably in his sixties at a Chinese restaurant and the
Speaker 1: guy basically said I don't want the white race to
Speaker 1: be replaced. I mean it was sort of white nationalists
Speaker 1: rhetoric that has been somewhat normalized.
Speaker 3: I want to know how it is for Donald Trump
Speaker 3: when you're so into facts, because his entire campaign is
Speaker 3: not based in facts.
Speaker 2: It was all based in propaganda and emotion.
Speaker 4: I voted for Donald Trump for one reason only. His policies,
Speaker 4: if implemented, would slow the dispossession of whites in the
Speaker 4: United States. If you were to deport all illegally, if
Speaker 4: you were to think very hard about letting in any mushoms,
Speaker 4: all of this would slow the rate at which whites
Speaker 4: are becoming a minority.
Speaker 1: I did a documentary series for NATCHIU in twenty eighteen,
Speaker 1: and one of the subjects was white anxiety. And you know,
Speaker 1: I think there are a lot of people when you
Speaker 1: think of the fact that there is going to be
Speaker 1: a majority minority population by twenty forty four in this country,
Speaker 1: really feel like that as a white American, I'm losing
Speaker 1: my place in this country.
Speaker 2: And I don't think.
Speaker 1: People people are excited, or a lot of people are
Speaker 1: not excited about a pluralistic society.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in this group and it just breaks my heart.
Speaker 3: It breaks my heart too. It is where the country
Speaker 3: has been headed for some time, right, And there is
Speaker 3: the left behind aspect of this, which there's lots of
Speaker 3: reasons for, but social media is one of them right
Speaker 3: where people are looking at social media and thinking everybody
Speaker 3: has it better than me, right, and that includes I
Speaker 3: think a lot of communities where the factory where their
Speaker 3: grandparents worked, right, No longer is the factory that's driving
Speaker 3: an amazing life right where.
Speaker 2: No, totally.
Speaker 1: I talked to somebody in Nebraska about this who worked
Speaker 1: at a meat packing plan. He was paid, you know,
Speaker 1: a good salary where he could raise his kids and
Speaker 1: have a middle class life in this small rural town
Speaker 1: in Nebraska. And then union started losing power. They started importing.
Speaker 1: The company started importing lower wage workers from Mexico and
Speaker 1: other countries. And then another guy talked to in Nebraska
Speaker 1: was like, they're doing jobs that a lot of Americans
Speaker 1: don't want to do. They don't want to work in
Speaker 1: a meat processing plan. And a lot of the employees
Speaker 1: who are immigrants are grateful to be able to, you know,
Speaker 1: have a full time, steady job.
Speaker 2: So it's so complex, isn't it.
Speaker 3: Jen, It is incredibly complex. I think lots of different
Speaker 3: communities see this differently. The business community obviously sees this
Speaker 3: differently from people in communities that have changed massively. Even
Speaker 3: the communities that have changed massively, a lot of people
Speaker 3: in those communities and may not want to do those jobs.
Speaker 3: To your point, you know, there's also issues which I
Speaker 3: think we're going to see, not exact replication, I hope not,
Speaker 3: but some of. I mean, the person who Trump just
Speaker 3: named to be his borders are is the person who
Speaker 3: is responsible for family separations. Is that what people want?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 1: Did you hear that guy on the podcast I forget
Speaker 1: his name who said, Yeah, we're going to round up
Speaker 1: We're going to deport grandmothers, were going to deport wives
Speaker 1: and husbands, We're going to put children in cages. It's
Speaker 1: going to be glorious. Do you know who I'm talking Oh?
Speaker 3: Yes, Mike Davis. Am I thinking he's the right person?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 3: And the guy I'm talking about is Holman, who was
Speaker 3: announced as the as the border czar, who basically has
Speaker 3: said governors others who if you try to resist me,
Speaker 3: will come double our numbers of law enforcement who come
Speaker 3: to your state. Who's talked about re implementing workplace raids.
Speaker 3: Is that what people want in these communities. I think
Speaker 3: we'll see, and I don't wish that upon any community,
Speaker 3: but I do think that we're going to see in
Speaker 3: the coming months what people voted for.
Speaker 1: What do you think about people speaking of that, like
Speaker 1: Gavin Newsom and Governor Pritzker trying to figure out ways
Speaker 1: to protect their states from certain policies that the Trump
Speaker 1: administration wants to enact.
Speaker 3: I think that is going to be one. To me,
Speaker 3: it's one of the most interesting spaces to watch, as
Speaker 3: much as I think many of the people who voted
Speaker 3: for Kamala Harris and mail millions of Democrats independents out
Speaker 3: there feel very lost for Lorne looking for property in Canada.
Speaker 3: Whatever they're doing right now.
Speaker 1: Well there, I think, especially because they're the guard rails
Speaker 1: of disappeared, you know, with the House, the Senate, the
Speaker 1: you know, judiciary, the executive branch is like, fuck me,
Speaker 1: what are.
Speaker 2: We supposed to do?
Speaker 3: Exactly?
Speaker 1: So excuse my French every week, that's all.
Speaker 3: Right, don't worry. Yes, So to me, it is interesting
Speaker 3: for two reasons. One is that to me is one
Speaker 3: of the guardrails is governors in these states who are
Speaker 3: already conveying they're going to push back more heally in
Speaker 3: Massachusetts it's another one of them.
Speaker 1: But isn't that dangerous on one level? I mean, it
Speaker 1: takes a lot of hutzpa to do that, because I
Speaker 1: know Kathy Hokeel got on the phone with Donald Trump,
Speaker 1: and you know that isn't without risks in terms of
Speaker 1: what retribution he could level at certain states.
Speaker 3: Right, that's true. But I think these governors are showing
Speaker 3: who's got the hutzpah right and who is going to
Speaker 3: do everything they can to lead and protect to the
Speaker 3: best of their ability, the people in their states. I
Speaker 3: also think it's interesting because right now there's no leader
Speaker 3: of the Democratic Party, and that is a vacuum, but
Speaker 3: a good one because people are going to emerge, right
Speaker 3: I don't know who they are. We'll see, but some
Speaker 3: of them, maybe some of these governors who push back,
Speaker 3: we'll see.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, Gavin Newsom, what a surprise, you mean,
Speaker 1: he's has national ambitions. But other than that, But other
Speaker 1: than Gavin Newsom, and I guess who are some of
Speaker 1: the people Jen You're going to be keeping an eye
Speaker 1: on in terms of rising stars we wanted to do
Speaker 1: a whole series with and it kind of fell apart.
Speaker 1: But I thought it would have been so smart to say,
Speaker 1: you know, everyone's bemoaning the fact that there aren't enough leaders,
Speaker 1: and I wanted to say, well, here's some people who
Speaker 1: are doing great things. Keep your eye on these folks.
Speaker 2: But it didn't. It didn't come together.
Speaker 3: But you still do that. Should do what we're doing it.
Speaker 3: We're doing it. I mean, we just had you know,
Speaker 3: I think there are a lot of governors. But I
Speaker 3: also will say, and I'll come back in a second.
Speaker 3: We just had the new mayor of Tulsa, Oklahoma on yesterday,
Speaker 3: and first African American mayor, and that's city's history, given
Speaker 3: the history of Tulsa. A pretty remarkable young guy, so
Speaker 3: compelling and interesting. We also had Justin Jones and Mallory
Speaker 3: mcmarrow on are those people all going to be president
Speaker 3: in four years?
Speaker 1: I don't know who Justin Jones and Mallory are so.
Speaker 3: Well here now I'm going to tell you so. Justin
Speaker 3: Jones is a state rep in Tennessee. He was one
Speaker 3: of the Tennessee three.
Speaker 2: Oh oh, I know of him, right.
Speaker 3: He is incredibly compelling and powerful and has been fearless
Speaker 3: in fighting for INSUC believes in a red state. Mallory
Speaker 3: mcmarrow you should check her out on Instagram because she's
Speaker 3: been answering reader questions or viewer questions hard ones. She's
Speaker 3: a state senator in Michigan. She ran in twenty eighteen
Speaker 3: after Trump won in twenty sixteen, and she I talked
Speaker 3: to them because I think it is important for people
Speaker 3: to see new faces and different faces and inspiring faces
Speaker 3: and people who are fighting back. There weren't number of
Speaker 3: people who won in states that Trump won, I mean,
Speaker 3: including a re election. Dammy Baldwin won reelection right in Nevada,
Speaker 3: Jackie Rose in one reelection. Alissa Slatkin is a new
Speaker 3: senator from Michigan. There are now two black women who
Speaker 3: are senators. Those were not Trump one states, but still inspiring.
Speaker 3: But in terms of rising stars, some of it is
Speaker 3: we don't entirely know yet. And what's cool about democracy
Speaker 3: is we don't actually pick you and I as much
Speaker 3: as we've done this for a long time, you know.
Speaker 3: But some of the people I think will be interesting
Speaker 3: to watch, I mean obviously knew Someome Pritzker more.
Speaker 1: Less more more Maryland everybody and very inspiring life story,
Speaker 1: very charismatic guy.
Speaker 3: Very Yeah, he did a full University of Maryland football practice.
Speaker 3: That's not the most important thing, but you know, an
Speaker 3: interesting thing and shotgunna beer for people who think that's compelling.
Speaker 3: Some will obviously Governor Shapiro, but I think it's it
Speaker 3: could be beyond that, you know, I think there's mayors
Speaker 3: who are interesting, there are younger state members of Congress
Speaker 3: who are interesting. And I think it's just going to
Speaker 3: be interesting to see who rises, because this is the
Speaker 3: vacuum means people rise, some rise who you don't know of,
Speaker 3: some rise and fail who you think are going to
Speaker 3: be the next thing. And that's what's interesting about this moment.
Speaker 1: And some come out of nowhere, like Jimmy Carter out
Speaker 1: of planes Georgia, like who knew, right, he knew.
Speaker 3: And in some ways differently. But Barack Obama, I mean,
Speaker 3: he had given that speech in two thousand and four, right,
Speaker 3: Carrie lost, but like nobody thought he was going to
Speaker 3: be the nominee. No one thought he would have a
Speaker 3: chance of winning. He did four years later, So we'll see.
Speaker 1: Do you know, how do you think Joe Biden is
Speaker 1: feeling right now.
Speaker 3: Oh, I have not spoken with him, and not that
Speaker 3: you were asking me that, but just for clarity for
Speaker 3: your listeners, I think sad and probably pretty dark about
Speaker 3: this moment.
Speaker 1: Do you think he feels at all responsible?
Speaker 3: I don't know if that's where his head is at.
Speaker 3: I really don't know. I think he probably looks at
Speaker 3: where working class voters were and wonders if he the party.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure Harris should have been doing something differently
Speaker 3: and better. I mean, you know, his I like, I
Speaker 3: always think about a lot of some of the conversations
Speaker 3: I had with him when I was the press secretary,
Speaker 3: where he would always tell me that's not how people talk, right.
Speaker 3: You know, There'd be language that was spit out of
Speaker 3: the bureaucratic system and he'd say, like, nobody talks like
Speaker 3: that and scran Pennsylvania. Now, I'm not suggesting I think
Speaker 3: Harris did far better than he would have done had
Speaker 3: he remained the nominee. So I'm not suggesting that. I
Speaker 3: do think that he probably has a mixture of emotions
Speaker 3: right now about how the party communicated about I don't
Speaker 3: know if it's the timing of when he dropped out.
Speaker 3: I don't know if he thinks he could have done better.
Speaker 3: I don't know what's going on in his head right now.
Speaker 1: I think he's probably wondering about his legacy too.
Speaker 3: His legacy, I think is the biggest thing, and this
Speaker 3: is you know, I remember I was working for President
Speaker 3: Obama when Trump won, and I was his communications director,
Speaker 3: and the first twenty four to forty eight hours was
Speaker 3: really more on a very personal, visceral level for people
Speaker 3: in the building what does this mean for them? And
Speaker 3: I'm not trying to be cheesy about it, but people
Speaker 3: really were like, I'm a Muslim American, Like, what does
Speaker 3: this mean for me? You know, I'm from the LGBTQ
Speaker 3: plus community, what does this mean for me? It was
Speaker 3: very personal. That was what everybody was doing. We weren't
Speaker 3: thinking about the legacy. It quickly moved there, though, to
Speaker 3: a point where it felt like so many people in
Speaker 3: the country knew that Trump was racist and sexist and
Speaker 3: just looked the other way. And it felt disappointing right
Speaker 3: not in individuals, but felt like maybe we haven't made
Speaker 3: as much progress as a country as we thought we had.
Speaker 3: And I think for Biden, he just worked for eight
Speaker 3: years as Vice president four years in between four years
Speaker 3: more as president worked to make progress on a lot
Speaker 3: of things that he has right to be proud of.
Speaker 1: I feel like that could have been you know, I'm
Speaker 1: telling the Press Secretary, but I do think Jen maybe
Speaker 1: they weren't up to speed on the way people get
Speaker 1: information either, I think President Biden, and please disagree with
Speaker 1: me if you don't think this is the case, but
Speaker 1: you know, and everything is hindsight is twenty twenty, but
Speaker 1: I feel like they were kind of operating a twenty
Speaker 1: twenty press organization in a nineteen ninety kind of way.
Speaker 1: I think they were slow to understand the power of
Speaker 1: social media. I think they were still showing up on
Speaker 1: Meet the Press and thinking that was really going to
Speaker 1: have an impact. And I respect Meet the Press, and
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not putting down legacy media, but it
Speaker 1: seems like, you know, there was this almost had in
Speaker 1: the sand idea or kind of resorting to the same old,
Speaker 1: same old that did not serve them well, where they
Speaker 1: weren't really able to explain their accomplishments that they didn't
Speaker 1: kind of talk where all these you know, people are
Speaker 1: getting information on all these fragmented ways. I think they
Speaker 1: were kind of slow to pick that up. What do
Speaker 1: you think?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree with some of it and not some
Speaker 3: of it. So I think one they definitely weren't doing
Speaker 3: meet the press. You can ask the people doing the.
Speaker 2: Oppress there, right, but you know when they would.
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, so you can ask them, they would tell
Speaker 3: you they never engaged with them. I think there are
Speaker 3: people on the team, including there's a guy named Rob
Speaker 3: Flaherty who ran the digital team for Biden and continued
Speaker 3: with Harris, who I think is, no, you don't really
Speaker 3: have money of money on the campaign you don't have
Speaker 3: in the White House, who built very large followings and
Speaker 3: to the best of his ability within his constraints, and
Speaker 3: his team did really amazing things.
Speaker 1: Well, I thought the Harris campaign was was doing an
Speaker 1: awesome t I'm talking about I'm talking about the Biden administry,
Speaker 1: same people doing the stuff. Did they just not have
Speaker 1: any money?
Speaker 3: You don't have money in the White House for any
Speaker 3: of it, so you have it on a campaign. I also, though,
Speaker 3: think that there has to be candidates who have the
Speaker 3: agility to do those things right, and I don't know
Speaker 3: that anybody who was at a certain age has that.
Speaker 3: It real agility, right.
Speaker 2: It's just Kamala Harris did.
Speaker 1: She's younger, right, but I still think but I also
Speaker 1: don't as much like.
Speaker 3: Rad Summer, which was cool, didn't work. Young people didn't
Speaker 3: turn out. So like I think, there's also like a
Speaker 3: lot of things about they can control and things they can't,
Speaker 3: including there isn't the same ecosystem on the left, including
Speaker 3: you need to have people who are willing to do
Speaker 3: a range of things. And yes, she was willing to
Speaker 3: do a lot of things, not all of the things,
Speaker 3: but a range of things.
Speaker 1: And there was that three week blackout period which I
Speaker 1: honestly could not understand.
Speaker 3: That was making me crazy, just as I also what
Speaker 3: was that? I think, I don't know. I think maybe
Speaker 3: a focus on the debate and the debate being a
Speaker 3: moment where but let's just be real, debates are important
Speaker 3: for the American people. They do not. This is also
Speaker 3: like an outdated view of like how elections will turn.
Speaker 3: In my view, you should do this.
Speaker 2: Should have been everywhere everywhere.
Speaker 3: But also Tim Walls, who was this kind of like
Speaker 3: so appealing rough around the edges guy during veepstakes where
Speaker 3: he propelled himself onto the ticket essentially and then he
Speaker 3: disappeared from public view for like four months. I don't
Speaker 3: think it would have changed the outcome. I think there's
Speaker 3: like lots of factors as soon as I've digested it,
Speaker 3: but it is a you have to be fearless and
Speaker 3: how you communicate and who and what formats you communicate on,
Speaker 3: and that means doing all of the things, including with
Speaker 3: people you disagree with who are going to be tough.
Speaker 3: I actually thought one of her better interviews was with
Speaker 3: Brett Baer, like she liked being on you know, oh,
Speaker 3: having a tough interview. You know.
Speaker 1: So I think I always find that people do better
Speaker 1: when they're asked really challenging, pointed questions. I always felt
Speaker 1: that about Hillary Clinton. If you are giving them these
Speaker 1: almost weird like amorphous softballs, it's really hard to kind
Speaker 1: of hone your message and be succinct and say what
Speaker 1: you really need to say. But I, you know, listen.
Speaker 1: I I also felt that, and again I think she
Speaker 1: really did well in so many areas, but I was
Speaker 1: frustrated by her inability to really succinctly answer questions at times,
Speaker 1: jen and to kind of like if she was asked
Speaker 1: about changing the Supreme Court at that CNN to Hall.
Speaker 1: She had an opportunity to talk about ethics and what
Speaker 1: you know Alito and Clarence Thomas were doing, and she
Speaker 1: answered like in one sentence and then like went on
Speaker 1: to something that had nothing to do with the question.
Speaker 1: You know, people notice that, and it's like, answer the
Speaker 1: goddamn question, please.
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, I love this is I'm seeing the
Speaker 3: Katie Kirk I watched on TV for so many years.
Speaker 2: And I'm so hungry. I didn't never say God, damn,
Speaker 2: I know, but.
Speaker 3: You thought it. This is my kind of like unsolicited
Speaker 3: advice to every person who may run for president. And
Speaker 3: I'm not picking any ponies. Whatever pony emerges emerge, sit
Speaker 3: down and think about why are you running for president?
Speaker 3: Right What is the most driving important thing for you?
Speaker 3: So you can answer that question and then explore what
Speaker 3: you actually think about the hard questions of the day.
Speaker 3: It doesn't have to be what's poll tested. In fact,
Speaker 3: ignore that. What do you think should happen on immigration?
Speaker 3: What do you think should happen in Israel? Every one
Speaker 3: of them should be able to for themselves answer those questions,
Speaker 3: and this is the time to do that right now.
Speaker 3: Explore those things, learn more about areas you don't know
Speaker 3: and form your own opinion.
Speaker 1: Well, one of the most damaging things was when she
Speaker 1: did go on the View and they made Hay over
Speaker 1: this when she said, I really can't think of a
Speaker 1: single thing she'd do differently than Joe Biden. First of all, Jen,
Speaker 1: you're an insider. Why didn't Joe Biden say, listen, I
Speaker 1: know you're going to have to separate yourself from this administration.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about areas where you can, where they're legitimate
Speaker 1: and godspeed. Because I think somebody wrote that it was
Speaker 1: almost as if they were more afraid of hurting Joe
Speaker 1: Biden's feelings than winning the election. Okay, help me out here, Jen.
Speaker 3: I wish that would have happened. I don't know that
Speaker 3: it didn't, but I think we can all assume it didn't, right,
Speaker 3: And I think.
Speaker 1: You mean that come to Jesus conversation script.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because I've worked for a lot of people in
Speaker 3: different circumstances. I mean, this was an incredibly I'm not
Speaker 3: making this as an excuse, but unique and painful summer
Speaker 3: for Joe Biden, for everybody around him, for major leaders
Speaker 3: of the Democratic Party who he'll probably never speak to
Speaker 3: again like Nancy Pelosi, and there was a fragility. There
Speaker 3: was also What's also true, and I think this may
Speaker 3: have been weighed the wrong way, is that when Joe
Speaker 3: Biden made the decision, he did for good reason. He
Speaker 3: was beloved by the Democratic Party, and I think in
Speaker 3: her mind there's a she navigated the politics of that
Speaker 3: in a very tricky way, right right, So, I don't know.
Speaker 3: I think that answer on the view was she had
Speaker 3: many moments of brilliance. That was not one of them.
Speaker 2: Well why couldn't.
Speaker 1: I mean, it seems to me if I were running
Speaker 1: for president, Jen, I would sit down with my you know,
Speaker 1: brain trust, and I'd be like, okay, let's play out
Speaker 1: these questions. What am I going to say yeah to this?
Speaker 1: And I would have had a template that I would
Speaker 1: have carried around with me in every interview, and I
Speaker 1: would have reviewed them and said, you know, this is
Speaker 1: what I believe and this is how I'm going to
Speaker 1: handle a question like that. Now, it just didn't seem
Speaker 1: like that was done. Am I crazy?
Speaker 3: Well, we don't know, you know. And here's the thing.
Speaker 3: Looking at the first biteen debate, this is a different thing.
Speaker 3: But I've prepped a lot of people who you know
Speaker 3: what they should say, and then they ignore your advice.
Speaker 3: So I don't know if that happened, And like she
Speaker 3: just in the moment felt like she should just not
Speaker 3: not differentiate. She kind of over the course of time
Speaker 3: she started differentiating herself, but it was a little bit
Speaker 3: on the margins, right, right, and it wasn't something I
Speaker 3: think people could bite into now. She also had some challenges.
Speaker 3: Any sitting vice president has say on Gaza, right, which
Speaker 3: is like, I actually don't know what her view is
Speaker 3: on that issue. I don't know, but she's the sitting
Speaker 3: vice president. She can't come out with a massively different
Speaker 3: position than the sitting president while security people and diplomats
Speaker 3: are negotiating a deal. She was kind of stuck on
Speaker 3: that right.
Speaker 1: Right, So I don't There was this impression, I guess,
Speaker 1: and I guess because of the Abraham Accords and moving
Speaker 1: the embassy right. I mean, so there was this I
Speaker 1: think pre baked feeling on the part of some voters
Speaker 1: that Donald Trump was going to be much stronger for Israel.
Speaker 1: And I think when she expressed and which I think
Speaker 1: is so sad, the inability to think dialectically and say yes,
Speaker 1: and is just been lost in this country. But I
Speaker 1: think when she expressed even sympathy for people who had,
Speaker 1: you know, the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people interpreted that as not being strong enough
Speaker 1: for Israel.
Speaker 3: Yes, and the politics, I mean, the humanity of the issue,
Speaker 3: as you just touched on, is the humanity of the issue.
Speaker 3: There's also, of course families that lost loved ones who
Speaker 3: were killed by Hamas all. Of course, of course all
Speaker 3: is true. I know I'm not saying, but all is true.
Speaker 3: I think for her, the politics of it were such
Speaker 3: that before she became the nominee, there was a feeling
Speaker 3: that the Democratic Party, by some Jewish Americans not all,
Speaker 3: was aligning themselves or not doing enough to push back
Speaker 3: on anti Semitism. Right. You saw that in focus groups
Speaker 3: a lot. I don't think that was talked about enough
Speaker 3: as a real issue. And then you also had young people,
Speaker 3: communities of color, obviously college campuses, who felt there was
Speaker 3: an ignoring of the human humanitarian tragedies and got both
Speaker 3: were happening at the same time. And I Trump somehow
Speaker 3: screwed it it right, and he his view and we'll
Speaker 3: see if this is what he implements is that Netnahu,
Speaker 3: she gets to do whatever he wants and should plow
Speaker 3: for it and level Gaza, and like that's all fine.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: I talked to a friend of mine who said her
Speaker 1: daughter went to this Ivy League school and a lot
Speaker 1: of her friends didn't vote to send a message to
Speaker 1: Kamala Harris about Gaza.
Speaker 3: They essentially voted to alec Donald Trump, whose position is
Speaker 3: Gaza who Gaza?
Speaker 1: What?
Speaker 3: Ntan Yahoo? Who? By the way, many Jewish Americans and
Speaker 3: people in Israel do not like right right, So he's
Speaker 3: saying give him free pass that. It does not make
Speaker 3: a lot of sense to me.
Speaker 1: I just yeah, I mean, listen, I know people feel passionately,
Speaker 1: but it just seems like by not voting, they were
Speaker 1: giving the election to somebody who, as you said, you know,
Speaker 1: is not going to even listen to their concerns about
Speaker 1: what is going on. And one last question, Jen, I
Speaker 1: just want to ask one question about Trump's behavior, Jen,
Speaker 1: Can you explain why his behavior, his language, which his
Speaker 1: coarseness and crudeness, why a lot of people seem to
Speaker 1: like that. I mean, every time I'd hear him say something,
Speaker 1: and I guess maybe again it's a backlash to quote
Speaker 1: unquote wokeness or political correctness. You know, it's part of that.
Speaker 1: But when I saw him pretending to give the mic
Speaker 1: a blowjob, I was like, oh my god. And then
Speaker 1: other people like I looked at the people in the background,
Speaker 1: they were laughing. Does it just not matter how somebody
Speaker 1: comports themselves in our society anymore? Maybe we're just like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, are we out of step?
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't think of myself as prude in
Speaker 3: any way, shape or form. I can talk about all
Speaker 3: the things, but I the crudeness, I guess. I think
Speaker 3: maybe people find funny, and maybe the talking about sharks
Speaker 3: and electrocuting and whatever that craziness people find funny. What
Speaker 3: I do have a hard time understanding is the cruelty
Speaker 3: and the cruelty and why that is okay Because I
Speaker 3: don't know. I don't think of myself as naive. I
Speaker 3: generally think of people, most human beings, as being kind,
Speaker 3: right and rooting for other humans. And you know the
Speaker 3: things he says when he talks about Hannibal Lecter, I'm like,
Speaker 3: that is weird and creepy. But some people, maybe they
Speaker 3: find that funny I don't know, but the cruelty is
Speaker 3: what I don't have an answer for, and I can't
Speaker 3: really understand.
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you one of the questions that
Speaker 1: a lot of people submitted when they heard that we
Speaker 1: were going to be talking. So many people asked if
Speaker 1: the Democrats were going to ask for a recount and
Speaker 1: why there are twenty million votes missing. I want to
Speaker 1: make sure everyone knows that there's been no evidence of
Speaker 1: voter fraud and the reason there are fewer votes is
Speaker 1: because there was a lower turnout this year compared to
Speaker 1: twenty twenty. But are you hearing that from a lot
Speaker 1: of your fellow Democrats or a lot of you viewers, Jen.
Speaker 3: I hear that a lot on social media platforms, like
Speaker 3: people who and those are valid voices of course too,
Speaker 3: but like people who are replying and asking questions like
Speaker 3: that and not understanding to your point, there was a
Speaker 3: lower turnout and also there were still, at least there
Speaker 3: have been and there still are today votes being counted
Speaker 3: in California, which is always the case, but people forget
Speaker 3: that it takes a couple more weeks because of how
Speaker 3: California takes a while to count their votes. That's another
Speaker 3: topic for another podcast and why it takes so long.
Speaker 3: But there are laws in states that trigger recounts if
Speaker 3: it is too close, right, if it is within a margin.
Speaker 3: So I have heard that, but I think it's important
Speaker 3: for people to understand that the margins of victory were
Speaker 3: quite large in a lot of places, definitive, and that
Speaker 3: there were fewer people that turned out for Kamala Harris
Speaker 3: then turned out for Joe Biden, and there are a
Speaker 3: range of reasons for that. It was easier to vote
Speaker 3: four years ago. Trump was in their face, he was
Speaker 3: the sitting president. There are lots of things, as we've
Speaker 3: been discussing, but that's also just a reality of where
Speaker 3: things sit right now.
Speaker 1: And looking forward. Jen, I know these are not your people,
Speaker 1: but we've heard names that will be occupying very important
Speaker 1: roles in a future Trump administration. Susie Wiles, who was
Speaker 1: so important to the Trump campaign, a least staphonic ambassador
Speaker 1: to the UN, Stephen Miller, Deputy chief of staff, the
Speaker 1: Immigration Customs Enforcement Director. You mentioned Tom Homan. He said,
Speaker 1: Nikki Haley and Mike Pompeio will not have a role,
Speaker 1: but obviously RFK Junior and Elon Muss are going to
Speaker 1: be pretty front and center in a Trump administration. So
Speaker 1: this is the Maga takeover of the US. What do
Speaker 1: you expect of this new regime? If you will? Maybe
Speaker 1: Rashima's right.
Speaker 3: You know I will. There are people a last Stephanic
Speaker 3: was once kind of a rising star, moderate member of Congress,
Speaker 3: and she became full Maga. I have not thought enough
Speaker 3: about what that means for her role as a UN ambassador,
Speaker 3: although she has been a person who has been an
Speaker 3: eager advocate of Trump's position on let nat Yaho do
Speaker 3: whatever na Yah who wants. But I think the two
Speaker 3: that stick out to me there the most art that
Speaker 3: I've just been thinking about today are Stephen Miller and
Speaker 3: Tom Holman, in part because there's Trump loyalists returning, and
Speaker 3: loyalists to a greater degree than even we saw eight
Speaker 3: years ago. Now. To be fair, every president hires people
Speaker 3: who supports them, you know, who are like you are
Speaker 3: grateful to be there. This is a different level of that, though,
Speaker 3: because these are people who have shown this right, they're
Speaker 3: not going to question the other thing that has stuck
Speaker 3: out to me. We're going to use this in the
Speaker 3: show tonight, But is Stephen Miller did this interview after
Speaker 3: in like twenty seventeen. I think it was where he
Speaker 3: talked about the perception her his view of power right
Speaker 3: and executive power, and a lot of these people, those
Speaker 3: two specifically who will be in charge play big roles
Speaker 3: on mass deportations and immigration policy, view executive power, the
Speaker 3: power of the presidency as all powerful and bigger than
Speaker 3: any other power. And that is the part that I
Speaker 3: think will be quite telling. You've seen, like Tom Holman
Speaker 3: basically has said for states that push back, I'm going
Speaker 3: to double up, you know, the number of people who
Speaker 3: come into their states and enforce. So I don't know
Speaker 3: how that manifests itself. But Trump's view of his own
Speaker 3: power of executive power, obviously he doesn't view equal branches
Speaker 3: of power, and how the people who he's hired view that,
Speaker 3: I think is going to be part of the story
Speaker 3: we see in the first at least one I'll be watching.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's almost as if Stephen Miller is
Speaker 1: Donald Trump's new Roy Khane.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, one who is who has quite a view
Speaker 3: of white supremacy in the world.
Speaker 1: Before we go, Jen, I want to end on a
Speaker 1: hopeful note. You have talked about the need for hope
Speaker 1: despite everything and the fear that a lot of people have.
Speaker 1: You know, let's be honest, there are people listening to
Speaker 1: this who are very excited about what's to come, maybe
Speaker 1: not every aspect, and maybe they'll be surprised. I guess
Speaker 1: it remains to be seen how much of Project twenty
Speaker 1: twenty five will actually be implemented if he is going
Speaker 1: to get rid of the Department of Education, the National
Speaker 1: Weather Service, you know, got the Civil Service, and basically
Speaker 1: replace those workers with people who pledge fealty to Donald Trump. Okay,
Speaker 1: Having said that, you have said there's reason to not
Speaker 1: feel powerless because I think given all the factors, people
Speaker 1: are like, well, what am I supposed to do? Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I watched you either it was on your show.
Speaker 1: I think I saw it on Instagram actually, which is
Speaker 1: where I get a lot of my experience.
Speaker 3: There. I go like America, Katie.
Speaker 1: Where you talked about the sort of ebb and flow
Speaker 1: of political power and how things change. So I thought
Speaker 1: maybe we'd end with you kind of talking about how
Speaker 1: history can be our guide on this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I will just reiterate one quick thing you said,
Speaker 3: which is I mean I'm not trying to be and
Speaker 3: I said this, I think in the video or whatever,
Speaker 3: Woe may have been naive.
Speaker 2: About Pollyanna, Pollyanna.
Speaker 3: Ish about what Trump says he wants to do, and
Speaker 3: he will be successful in doing some of it, at
Speaker 3: least we'll see. We don't know yet, but I think
Speaker 3: there is an evan flow of history. And you know,
Speaker 3: I worked on the Carry campaign in two thousand and four,
Speaker 3: which obviously he lost to George W. Bush. And George W.
Speaker 3: Bush had brought the country into the war in Iraq,
Speaker 3: something that was quite unpopular. That John Kerrey had been
Speaker 3: a decorated war veteran who ran against him, speaking out
Speaker 3: against that, and on paper it felt like he would
Speaker 3: be the right person to defeat him, and he obviously didn't.
Speaker 3: And it opened up this period of time, and you
Speaker 3: remember this well, I'm sure where there was a lot
Speaker 3: of speculation, not in a partisan way, certainly Republicans but
Speaker 3: Democrats too, that maybe it was forever the Republican Party,
Speaker 3: maybe the Republican Party and the Party of Bush was
Speaker 3: the party of the foreseeable future, and it wasn't. In
Speaker 3: part because when you're in office and you're governing you're
Speaker 3: held to a different account. And in many ways, the
Speaker 3: country always looks for change and wants to hold to
Speaker 3: account the people who were in power, and that is
Speaker 3: a part of the story of twenty twenty four to two.
Speaker 3: Two years later, of course, the Democrats won back the
Speaker 3: House for the first time in over a decade. Nancy
Speaker 3: Pelosi became the first Speaker of the House, and two
Speaker 3: years after that, a guy with the middle name Hussain
Speaker 3: was elected to the presidency, someone who was not the
Speaker 3: establishment candidate, and most people wouldn't have predicted. I mean,
Speaker 3: people thought he was like a rising star, but I
Speaker 3: don't think people would have predicted he would have been
Speaker 3: the nominee. So I share that because this is different.
Speaker 3: Trump is different. George W. Bush Well obviously didn't vote
Speaker 3: for It looks pretty great these days, you know, to me,
Speaker 3: but there are cyclical things. Accountability is a thing. People
Speaker 3: do have power. I also talked about how the Affordable
Speaker 3: Care Act was something Trump ran planning to get rid of,
Speaker 3: and because of activism, because people showed up at events,
Speaker 3: because people said no, I want my healthcare. That didn't happen.
Speaker 3: So I know people are exhausted. People should rest for
Speaker 3: a minute or ten or twenty minutes. But the thing
Speaker 3: about democracy is it's designed for people to have power,
Speaker 3: including when you're in the opposition, and you know, once
Speaker 3: people are arrested. I hope people feel that well.
Speaker 1: I love talking to you, Jen, thank you so much
Speaker 1: to thank you me and spending so much time.
Speaker 3: I love talking to you, I love talking well. Thank
Speaker 3: you so much, Katie, I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: And congratulations on your success and I'm always cheering you on.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,
Speaker 1: a subject you want us to cover, or you want
Speaker 1: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,
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Speaker 1: Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media.
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