WEBVTT - Election Reflections with Jen Psaki 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.600 Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question. 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:14.080 Oh my. Here we are a little more than a 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:17.600 week after the election by the time this podcast drops, 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:20.160 and I don't know about you all, but I'm still 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:25.239 kind of shaking my head, wondering how this happened, what 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:28.800 went wrong or right for depending on where you stand, 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:32.960 what the Democratic Party did wrong? What did the Harris 0:00:32.960 --> 0:00:37.840 campaign perhaps do wrong. I've read so many analysis pieces 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:42.160 I can't even tell you from all different publications. Probably 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:45.440 some of my followers will think, well, Katie, you're reading 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:50.480 publications that confirm your pre existing beliefs, and if that's true, 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:54.400 guilty is charged. I probably have been reading those publications. 0:00:54.440 --> 0:00:57.080 But I felt like one of the best people we 0:00:57.120 --> 0:01:00.760 could talk to about all of this is my friend Jensaki. 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:05.440 Jen of course, served under two administrations, the Obama administration 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:10.520 the Biden administration, and now she is crushing it over 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:14.080 at MSNBC. I think she's a really welcome and much 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:17.720 needed voice. Although we can talk about the media as 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:21.360 well with Jen. Jen, gosh, Hi so much to discuss. 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:22.000 How are you? 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:27.000 I mean, Hi, I have spent the last several days 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:29.960 just as ever. Probably anyone listening has really thinking about 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:33.200 all of the things you just said, reading so many pieces. 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:35.640 There's a lot of takes out there. A lot of 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:39.560 them are bad, but some of them are interesting. And 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:42.000 what I've tried to really force myself to do in 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:46.160 this moment is be humble about what I misread and 0:01:46.200 --> 0:01:48.280 what I didn't see, what many of us misread. I'm 0:01:48.280 --> 0:01:50.880 not the only one, and what it tells us about 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:55.720 a huge disconnect out there from the party with There 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:56.800 are a lot of reasons. 0:01:56.520 --> 0:01:58.400 Why yes, but I have so many. 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:03.240 I've tried to be very introspective about that and not blame. 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:05.400 I think there's also a lot of blame gaming going 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:07.320 on out there, which I don't think. That doesn't mean 0:02:07.360 --> 0:02:10.680 you can't be critical. It just means people who say 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:12.880 this is the fault of all white women, it's like 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:15.560 we're fault of Latinos. It's like, as you know, Katie, 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:19.640 that's not how democracy works. I mean, people decide who 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:21.200 they want to vote for based on who they think 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:23.399 is going to best represent their views. You either move 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:25.520 people to do that or you don't. So that's what 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:27.560 I've spent the last couple of days. For me, it's 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:30.080 like digging into it and studying and being in the 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:32.440 research phase, and that's where I feel like I am 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:33.120 in this moment. 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:36.120 I also think it's going to be helpful, Jen. I 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:39.040 think when you started at MSNBC, correct me if I'm wrong. 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:42.240 I have this bonehead idea. I was like, Jen, why 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:46.239 don't you do your show every weekend from a different location. 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:49.000 Why don't you go to the middle of the country. 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:52.640 Why don't you do the show from Dayton, Ohio. Why 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:56.400 don't you do the show from Houston, Texas. Why don't 0:02:56.440 --> 0:03:01.160 you better references what the American people are thinking and feeling. Now, 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:03.960 of course I'm patting myself on the back for that idea, 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:08.120 but honestly, I think you're right. I think that the 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:12.959 media is occupied by coastal elites who pretty much all 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:18.119 went to pretty good schools. They don't represent a real 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:24.040 diversity of backgrounds socioeconomically anyway. And that's not true. You know, 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:27.360 I'm making a generalization here, but for the most part, 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:32.120 and I just feel like they're also not reporting out 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:34.640 in the field as much. I mean, one of the 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:36.960 things that bugs me when I watch cable news, and 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:39.360 by the way, we're talking about very small percentage of 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:43.400 the population that's actually watching cable news these days. Is 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:47.000 I never see them talking to real people. They're always 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:49.720 sitting at a desk, you know, doing a lot of 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:52.320 naval gazing. I mean that's not to say I don't 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:55.880 really appreciate hearing what these very smart people have to say. 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:58.880 You know, I love your show, Jen, I love hearing 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:03.480 you talk to people. But it does feel like it 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:09.920 is just not touching and not talking and not sharing 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:15.240 stories of people's lives. And it's just gotten very super 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:19.919 high level, and nobody seems to be really rolling up 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:22.320 their sleeves and getting out there in the country and 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:23.320 talking to voters. 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:26.200 Yeah. There's a lot of reasons for that too, as 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:29.240 you know. I mean, one thing that's expensive. It's expensive. 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:32.560 That's one of them. And I remember us talking about that. 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:35.480 And I have tried to go out as much as 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:37.520 I can and actually spent I mean, I was in 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:40.240 Michigan a week before the election. I've gone out on 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:43.240 the road with candidates. You do have actual I was 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:46.400 in New Hampshire for days around the Republican primary, and 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:49.160 to your point, you do have actual, real conversations that 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:51.960 make you question and think. One of the things I've 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:53.440 thought a lot about And I can only speak for 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:57.400 myself and how I approach things moving forward is that 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:00.680 you get into an easy cycle of what is your 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:03.360 reaction to this crazy thing Trump said? What is your 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:05.880 reaction to that crazy thing? Trump said? And as you know, 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:07.400 and I'd be interested in your thought on this, for 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:10.440 given your long history, he is still a story. He's 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:12.560 the president elect of the United States. People can't not 0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:15.200 cover him or not talk about him. But I do 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:18.080 wonder if the react to the crazy thing he said 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:20.799 is the most informative and right way that we should 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:21.760 be approaching things. 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:24.280 Yeah, I think a lot of people are looking at that, 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:28.000 did journalists And by the way, you know, we'll talk 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:31.359 about this. Media is so fragmented. I always say mass 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:34.040 media is now at oxymoron. So when you even say 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:37.080 the media, who and what are you talking about? But 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:40.160 I see your point. I think often they missed the 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:43.480 forest for the trees, because I think the focus was 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:47.640 probably a little bit more on the candidate and his 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:51.920 outrageous behavior instead of the fans and the people who 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:56.200 were gravitating and attracted to him and why. But wouldn't 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:59.720 it have been interesting if you had taken a Trump's 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:02.280 support order a week and really gone home with that 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:06.400 person and talked about their lives and talked about, you know, 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:09.640 what they were worried about, and talked about how they 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:12.560 were struggling to raise their kids, or talked about all 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:17.080 kinds of things. You know, this feeling of global insecurity 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:19.560 and pain for all these wars when we have so 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:21.960 many problems at home. I think it might have been 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:23.120 really illuminating. 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:24.200 Jin Well. 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:29.120 I also think certainly longtime Trump supporters are part of it, absolutely, 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:32.200 But I also think for the Democratic Party and also 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:34.160 for the media in a different way, And I want 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:36.280 to come back to that in a second. It's people 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:40.839 who left the Democratic Party who had long supported Democratic 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:45.560 candidates or Democratic policies and decided they weren't being heard anymore. 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:48.799 And those people maybe they stayed home. Maybe they voted 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:50.960 for Trump, but maybe they didn't vote at all. And 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:53.400 there's a group that I feel like wasn't heard or 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:54.440 listened to either. 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:57.640 But that's not a new phenomenon, Jen, I mean, we've 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:01.720 seen sort of this, this shift by blue collar, working 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:05.480 class folks in this country moving towards the Republican Party. 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:09.039 And maybe it would have looked hollow. But I have 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:11.160 a friend and we talk about this stuff all the time. 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:14.640 We were like, why isn't Kamala Harris going out and 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:18.760 talking to more factory workers. Why isn't she like putting 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:22.560 on a hard hat and really talking to people everyday 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:25.080 people a little bit more. I think she could have 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:28.720 done that throughout the administration. But what were we talking about. 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:31.360 I have so many things on my headshet and I 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:32.800 don't want to get off topic of What we were 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:35.840 talking about is like having the conversations with the people 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:38.040 who really I mean. The other thing I think and 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:39.840 I don't want to get off the topic of working 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:41.760 class voters because I think that is a big Yes, 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:43.800 you're right, the trends have been moving. In the trends 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:46.200 they've been moving. I do think this was a very 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:50.560 startling outcome in terms of the big shifts among many 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:55.160 different demographic groups, Latino men, young people. I mean, it 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:57.360 was not just one, it was not just white working 0:07:57.400 --> 0:07:59.640 class voters. It was beyond right, which I think is 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.480 something that's important to be part of the conversation. The 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:05.080 other thing I think that's important to reflect on is 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:08.040 just a misread of abortion politics and what I mean 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:11.920 by that is, the majority of the country does believe 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:14.960 in a woman's right to make choices about her own healthcare, 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:18.160 bodily autonomy, whatever you want to call it, abortion whatever. 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:23.520 Seven states voted to protect abortion rights and still voted 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:26.440 for Trump, right, and there was this assumption. I'm not 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:28.520 the only one, but I'm just reflecting on my own 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:31.520 assumptions that were inaccurate, that both people who voted to 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:34.440 protect it or felt strongly about it would recognize that 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:36.640 he was a person who opposed it, and that's not. 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:38.000 True, and why didn't they? 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:40.000 I am also a believer. We don't know all the 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:41.840 answers yet. So this is how I've thought about it 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:44.520 to day. How I've thought about it to date is 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:48.720 either there is a belief that he wasn't a believer 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:51.240 in abortion band and he sort of said different iterations 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:53.160 of that over the course of time, despite his role 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:58.040 in nominating Supreme Court justices who did implement that policy 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:01.360 or did rule that way. People may have just this 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:02.839 is why it's interesting talk to these people, and I 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:04.320 don't know. This is why I don't know the answer yet. 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:06.960 May have made had the view that I can protect 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:10.119 abortion rights this way, but I still think the economy 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:12.240 is nobody's hearing me, and he hears me better, so 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:15.720 I'm going to do both. I'm not sure. I don't 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:18.040 know that we entirely know, but I think there was 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:23.400 an overconfidence because of these special elections and because of 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:26.200 the midterms where there is a smaller turnout, So perhaps 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:29.160 the more exercised, excited people turn out, and a belief 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:31.880 it was going to replicate itself. It didn't. There's a 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:33.480 lesson in that somewhere. And I don't think we know 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:34.880 all the answers yet. 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:38.800 I don't think he does give out the vibe, if 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:41.360 you will, which seems to be the word of the year, 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:46.120 that he feels super strongly about limiting abortion rights. 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:46.480 Right. 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:48.959 I think people see his lifestyle, but then you do 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:51.440 look at the Supreme Court, then you do look at JD. 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:55.079 Vance and you're like, how can you not be worried 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:58.520 about this? And you know it's interesting. I know Ronald 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:00.560 Reagan is how old I am, jen and you know 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:04.200 he campaigned a lot on restricting abortion, I think in 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:07.240 order to win over the evangelical vote, and then once 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:11.760 in office, he basically made it Priority number seventy nine, 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:15.640 like nothing was really ever done about it, So maybe 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:18.720 people just since from Donald Trump, this wasn't an issue 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:21.800 he cared about. But on the other hand, Jen, I mean, hello, 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:25.960 you look at the Supreme Court justices and you look 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:30.480 at you know, Dobbs, and you're thinking, wait, how can 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:32.760 you compartmentalize these things? 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:36.800 That is my question. And in what's different now from 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:41.160 the Reagan administration is, of course that the DBS decision happened. 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:43.920 So states have the ability, as you know, and you've 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:46.600 been talking about, to put in place their own laws, 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:49.640 and we've seen the impact of those. So when Trump 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:52.199 or Jade Vans or whomever it may be, says it 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:54.719 should go back to the states, well we see how 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:56.440 that goes. What it means is we have a country 0:10:56.440 --> 0:10:59.720 where half the states have restrictive laws that could lead 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:04.839 to deaths in some cases women having sepsist, doctors being prosecuted, 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:07.920 and half the states that don't. And that's what's also different. 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:11.520 But why didn't that resonate with more people? Which brings 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:15.160 me back to the information ecosystem. Yeah, you know, I 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.199 mean I think it is so fragmented. You can create 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:22.760 your own digital diet or media diet, and you know, 0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:25.200 I heard so many people saying, well, it's fine to 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:28.120 let the states decide as if the people of those 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:32.200 states would be in a position. Well, they were in 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:36.040 some cases right with a referenda that were voted on 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:41.480 this go round. But somehow these stories did not penetrate 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:45.400 or did not get through a lot of voters about 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:48.600 the dangers of leaving it to states who would prohibit 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:52.560 abortion even in cases of rape, incest or when the 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:54.880 mother's life is in danger. There are states like that 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:56.000 out there, right chen. 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:00.640 Now, I think I have some ends I don't have, 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:02.680 but I'll just be like a kumble about the place 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:04.400 I don't have answers. And this is the place I 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:06.439 feel like I need to do more studying and understanding. 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:10.360 Is the disinformation space. I do think that unquestionably to me, 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:13.840 you know, one of the things that's changed even since 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:17.280 I got involved in politics is just the rise of 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:19.880 the percentage of people who get their information off of 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:24.839 platforms that have no fact checking mechanism and no accountability 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:29.199 for having disinformation spread right right, And as you know, well, 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:32.599 and I mean when I got started in democratic politics, 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:35.480 you know, most of it was like local TV ads. 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:38.400 That was what it was about. Obviously national TV, local print, 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:43.439 local TV is held to a higher standard of accountability 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:47.320 than social media platforms in terms of having accurate information 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:51.560 on their platforms. That is crazy, And so it is, 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:54.559 how does it change, How are people held to account? 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:57.199 Laws have to change. I don't even know the total 0:12:57.240 --> 0:12:59.440 answer to it, but that seems to me to be 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:02.080 a core issue. The other issue I think that is 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:05.240 a real one is I don't think Joe Rogan deserves 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:09.199 like one hundred percent credit of love Donald Trump being elected, 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:13.679 but it was a misunderstanding of kind of also how 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:17.560 people are getting their information and an undervaluing of some 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:21.000 of those platforms that Trump was doing that either don't 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:25.080 really exist on the other side or not in those 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:28.320 not in the numbers exactly exactly. 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:31.839 Yeah, Yeah, And I also think, I mean, again, my 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:34.840 head is swimming with so many with so many things 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:38.280 that I've been trying to process over the last few days. 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:42.360 You know, there's this whole theory about a huge backlash 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:46.880 by young men and some older men, and perhaps that 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:51.240 explained some of the Latino vote to this idea that 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:55.240 women are making so many more strides. I mean, ostensibly, 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:57.840 you look at medical schools and law schools and that 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:01.319 you know, there was me too, there was Black Lives Matter, 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:05.280 and suddenly I think people were still angry about affirmative 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:08.200 action when it was in place, and they're sort of like, 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:12.320 I thought this country was a meritocracy, and now I'm 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:13.240 feeling screwed. 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:19.080 Yeah, And I think the feeling screwed takes many forms, right, 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:23.280 And maybe people who it is sexism for wouldn't even 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:26.120 admit to themselves that it's sexism, right. 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:27.760 I think that's so right, Jen. 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:31.440 I think that some people don't even recognize their implicit bias. 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:34.080 I have a friend who said, I'm just worried that 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:37.920 Kamala Harris doesn't have the stature to deal with world 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:41.320 leaders And I thought, wow, this was a very successful woman, 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:44.760 and I thought, maybe just replace stature with penis. 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:48.040 Yes, I was so honestly so. 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:52.600 That maybe replace stature with phenis got the mate out there. 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:57.880 But it was so it was so perplexing to me, 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:01.240 and I was like, Oh, this this is someone who 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:07.320 doesn't realize her deep seated implicit bias against female leadership. 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:12.000 Yes, and that is of it's so hard to measure 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:16.200 because people don't even admit it to themselves, right, and 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:19.520 it is I mean, in my on the Latino men 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:22.600 part of this, which I think there's not one answer for. 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:24.520 But I agree, and I think we have to be 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:28.520 careful stratifying society and the way we do with polls. 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:31.320 I think Mike Murphy, I heard John Heilman say this 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:35.320 on Bill Maher. So I'm quoting a quote of a quote, 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:38.240 but Mike Murphy said, you know, when are we going 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:41.440 to just call Latino men men? I mean it almost 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:46.640 underscores or exacerbates this notion of identity politics, right. 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:51.200 Yes, And I think you know it depends on also, 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:55.080 like no group is monolithic. Women are not monolithic. Clearly 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:58.000 white women are not monolithic. But Latino men are not 0:15:58.080 --> 0:16:02.160 monolithic either. And the thing that Latino men in Florida 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:06.160 might be grappling with, including like this notion of you know, 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:10.160 socialism and communism and what it means if you came 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:13.440 from a country where that was a dominant issue like Cuba, 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:16.720 right in Cuba. And also Christina Landon, I'm going to 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:18.720 quote someone now who sits next to me. She's a Telemundo, 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:21.640 longtime Telemundo reporter, and I had dinner with her maybe 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:23.800 three nights before the election, and she said to me 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:26.560 something that stuck with me, which is like, sometimes the 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:30.080 issues that democrats think are going to work for them, 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:35.160 like democracy and abortion rights, work the reverse way amongst 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:39.440 someone because there's sometimes more conservative social values. Anyway, It's 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:43.040 my point is there's not a monolithic take here. I've 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:45.480 also in my kind of research studying phase of this 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:48.480 because this is my coping mechanism. Yeah, I've been reading 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:53.480 Foala Ramos's book. It's called The Defectors, and it's about 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:59.160 the Latino men who have become maga and why now 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:01.080 it's not She's very, very humble in the book, but 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:03.800 it's not conclusive. But part of it she talks about 0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:07.800 identity and identifying as an American versus identifying as an immigrant, 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:11.080 and that's an interesting part of the conversation too. But 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:13.560 I don't know the total answer, but I think it's 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:17.840 one that is worth everyone continuing to learn and explore 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:19.359 and listen more about. 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:23.040 I think that's true because I think often these pundits 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:28.520 make these pronouncements right that are too general, that treat 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:33.199 communities as monolithic and not as separate people, you know, 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:39.119 separate even individual people and families, right, who have had 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:51.239 very different experiences, as you said, certainly within the Latino community. 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:55.080 If you want to get smarter every morning with a 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:58.359 breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and 0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:01.760 wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter, 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:14.159 Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. What 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:17.480 do you think about all the finger pointing at wokeness? 0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:17.720 Now? 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:20.240 First of five, I hate that word, and I feel 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:24.760 like it's been a bit overstated, but there does seem 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:30.760 to be an increasing intolerance for being told how you're 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:34.639 supposed to think and being told you're less than because 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:36.119 you don't think a certain way. 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:38.920 I think that's it for me, and again I don't, 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:42.520 But how I've thought about it is nobody likes to 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:46.360 be condescended to or told that they have to hit 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:48.919 a certain litmus test of things to be welcomed and 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:51.600 invited in the party. And I think sometimes people feel 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:54.760 that way about the Democratic Party. And I do think 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:57.560 that some of the positions that Vice President Harris took 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:00.320 when she was running for president in twenty nineteen, which 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:02.879 I actually don't think are her positions because they weren't 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:06.159 before and they weren't after. And there's an inauthenticity to 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:09.560 that six months of her life, right, But which is 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:11.800 a lesson for lots of people running for office. Be 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:13.040 authentic to what you believe. 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:15.600 Yeah, my sister used to say. I don't know if 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:18.240 you knew my sister was running for lieutenant governor with 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:20.960 I think you and I have talked about this with 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:24.639 Mark Warner. And then she got diagnosed with pancreatic cancer 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:28.040 and had to drop out, sadly tragically. And you know, 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:30.640 Emily used to say to me, when you run for office, 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:33.239 you have to be willing to lose. I think what 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:37.160 she meant is you have got to adhere to your 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:40.720 core values who you are as a person, and if 0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:44.720 you lose, then you're not meant to win. And you know, 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:47.680 and I so respected that, and I think it speaks 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:50.199 to as you were saying the twenty nineteen positions. But 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:52.439 can I just add something, Jen, because I wonder if 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:56.400 you've also thought about this. Seems to me people kind 0:19:56.440 --> 0:20:00.440 of forget that moment in time too. I mean it 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:04.480 was sort of right on the heels of me too, 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:07.360 right on the heels of Black Lives Matter. I think 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:13.160 there were forces that were pulling everybody and I don't 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:15.639 want to necessarily to say to the left, but maybe 0:20:15.680 --> 0:20:18.480 it was to the left. But this kind of realization, 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:22.600 this feeling that you know, if you're a white American, 0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:26.520 you're to blame and there's something wrong with you, and 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:29.399 that you're part of the problem, and you know, the 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:33.760 whole Karen thing and all that. I wonder if her 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:39.120 positions were in a way informed by that environment that 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:44.960 we were experiencing, and that this election in a way 0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:50.359 was a repudiation or an expression of some of those feelings. 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:51.480 Does that make sense at all? 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:55.840 Yeah, Look, I think there is a huge swath of 0:20:55.880 --> 0:21:00.760 the population voters, voters i should say, who didn't feel 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:06.479 heard or connected with the Democratic Party messaging and the 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:09.159 top of the ticket. And that is not it's a 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:12.639 divided country all the things. But there are policy issues 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:16.760 that should be helpful to the very same people who 0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:21.919 voted against the Democratic Party platform and ticket right, including 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:26.399 advocacy for a minimum wage, including like raising taxes on 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:30.240 the highest income in corporate America. So that disconnect tells 0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:34.879 you it's about something bigger, Right, It's about feeling left 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:38.400 out of the party, not feeling heard, feeling ignored. There 0:21:38.400 --> 0:21:41.000 are lots of things that could be the reasoning for it. 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:45.160 But yes, I do think that is certainly a part 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:48.440 of it. You know, I also think there have been 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:52.439 some major shifts, and immigration is one of them. And 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:55.400 this is where I'm kind of like my personal views aside. 0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:57.760 You'd have to put them aside when you're looking at 0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:02.320 the political spectrum, right, immigration and the issue has become 0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:06.600 the country has become increasingly conservative on that issue, right. 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:10.159 And I look at even the bipartisan border bill that 0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:14.760 obviously didn't move forward, that was an incredibly conservative bill. 0:22:15.119 --> 0:22:15.439 I know. 0:22:15.640 --> 0:22:18.719 I wish they had made a point of how Trump 0:22:18.880 --> 0:22:22.280 convinced Republicans not to even vote on it because it 0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:25.480