WEBVTT - Credibility | EP 6 | Saskia's Story 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:06.400 Mike Livengood pled guilty to just one count of second 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:10.480 degree rape. He took a plea deal that meant he 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:15.280 would only serve eighteen months in prison by the time 0:00:15.320 --> 0:00:18.440 of his sentencing. Hearing the one You Heard last episode, 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:22.759 the judge's hands were tied, but she had watched those 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:26.120 chatterbait videos and she was sure of what she saw. 0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:31.000 It was clear to me that miss Inwood was comatose, 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:36.520 not asleep, but comatose unconscious. 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:42.760 Absolutely, any technicalities in the law didn't matter. The videos 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:47.040 spoke for themselves. To Judge Jill Cummins, this was rape. 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:53.199 You were a predator to miss Inwood, and I completely 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:55.920 understand it. The damage done to her. 0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:59.520 Is probably irreparable. 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:02.680 Do you understand that by pleading guilty this morning, you 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:05.679 are waving or giving out that presumption of innocence? 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:06.600 Yes? 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:09.240 I do so was to plead guilty this morning, I do. 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:11.200 You're honor okay? And are you pleading. 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:11.800 Guilty today, sir? 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:16.160 Because you are in fact guilty, Yes, you're of the 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:16.720 one account. 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:19.400 You'd think that would have been the end of it, 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:23.120 But for Saskia, things were about to get much worse. 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:41.039 Mike was just getting started I'm Andrea Gunning and this 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:49.080 is Betrayal. Season five, episode six, Credibility. Mike's guilty plead 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:52.360 marked the end of his criminal proceedings, but his sentencing 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:56.480 hearing wouldn't be his last time in court. It wouldn't 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:59.920 be Soaski as either. For a year, the criminal matter 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:04.160 took center stage, but the whole time, there was another 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:10.720 case playing out, Saskia and Mike's divorce. We're going to 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:14.120 rewind a bit to before Mike's plea deal, before he 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:17.760 was even charged with a crime. It was November one, 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:22.919 twenty eighteen, just four days after Saskia discovered the videos 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:26.000 of her being sexually assaulted and went to the police. 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:31.000 On that day, Saskia was back at the courthouse finalizing 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:34.800 her protective order. But before she could leave the building. 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:37.200 I got served the divorce papers. 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:41.000 At first, having those papers in hand was a relief. 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:45.040 She wanted a divorce as quickly as possible. But as 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:48.799 Saskia sat in the courthouse lobby reading the documents Mike 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:53.320 sent she realized this wasn't just any divorce filing. 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:57.040 He was actually saying that I was complicit in all this, 0:02:57.200 --> 0:03:00.480 and I knew about chatter baden It's pages and pages 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:05.240 of allegations that him and I were a team camming together. 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:11.280 Just four days after Saskia realized what Mike was doing 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:15.160 to her, four days after Mike left the house, he 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:20.760 filed for divorce on the grounds of cruelty Saskia's cruelty 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:28.440 towards him. Mike said that Saski's allegations that he raped her, secretly, 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:32.079 videotaped her, and posted nude images of her without her 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:37.240 knowledge were all false. Saskia was making it all up. 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:42.400 The divorce complaint reads the parties would spend evening time 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:46.600 posting and watching other couples doing the same. This was 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:51.120 a regular activity that the parties engaged in openly. These 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:53.760 acts were all consensual. 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:58.960 To get this divorce complaint just floored me. I knew 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:00.880 that this was going to be really ugly. 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:05.960 These divorce proceedings were completely different than the criminal case 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:09.200 Mike was about to face. That case was the State 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:13.080 of Maryland versus Mike Cleven Goood. It was the state's 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:17.360 job to prove Mike's guilt. This divorce case was Mike 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:19.560 Levin Goood versus Saskia in Wood. 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:22.040 It really felt like I was the one on trial. 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:27.760 Mike could have gone for a no fault divorce. Instead, 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:32.240 he was determined to take Saskia down, and this path 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:35.960 had a lot to offer him. His criminal trial hadn't 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:39.679 taken place yet, so the divorce was a bargaining chip. 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:43.640 Saskia thinks that Mike was using the divorce case to 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:47.560 get her to back down and make his criminal troubles disappear. 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:51.440 I think that he assumed that I would accept some 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:55.480 kind of deal for alimony in exchange for not testifying. 0:04:56.440 --> 0:04:58.960 It would be easy to throw some cash my way, 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:00.599 and that's what I'll I'll go away. 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:04.960 Saskia could have used that money she was dipping into 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:07.040 her four to h one K just to pay her 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:11.320 divorce attorney, but that kind of deal she'd never accept. 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:15.240 If the condition is that I don't testify it, there's 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:19.920 no way. I don't care. I'll be destitute. We're gonna 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:20.599 follow through with this. 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:29.320 The criminal proceedings went ahead with Saskia as an active 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:33.960 participant in the case, but even after Mike pled guilty, 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:38.280 even after the criminal matter was closed, he charged ahead 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:42.480 with the divorce on the grounds of cruelty. Saskia wanted 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:45.880 a divorce too, But like I said earlier, this was 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:50.560 no typical divorce. Mike was saying Saskia was a liar 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:54.120 and there was a lot at stake. If a judge 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:58.560 believed him, Saskia could owe Mike her rapist tens of 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:02.279 thousands of dollars. She could even be charged with false 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:07.240 reporting or sued for defamation. In this case, there were 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:11.560 lengthy depositions, requests for documents. 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:13.360 And then in January of twenty twenty one, the Dors 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:14.680 actually went to trial. 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:20.560 This is extremely rare, only about five percent of divorce 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:24.719 cases make it to trial. It was the middle of COVID, 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:28.920 so much of the trial took place over zoom. Saskia 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:32.560 sat at her kitchen table, staring at Mike through her screen. 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:36.880 He was sitting there in an orange jumpsuit after pleading 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:37.719 guilty to rape. 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:42.560 At this point, Mike had been convicted, but in spite 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:45.920 of that, at this divorce trial, Mike would claim he 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:49.719 was innocent. That's why he was so determined to see 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:54.480 this case through. You see, Mike couldn't win his freedom 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:57.599 through his plea. He'd waived much of his right to 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:02.240 an appeal, but convincing knew judge that Saskia was lying 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:05.800 could help him clear his name. If he won the divorce, 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:09.600 he could have an official document that proved Saskia made 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:13.320 the whole thing up, a document he could take to employers, 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:16.640 friends and family to say this is what really happened. 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:22.920 The divorce judge saw the truth. On the surface, the 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:26.720 divorce trial was all about money, as most divorces are. 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:31.800 Who'd get the house, the cars, But really the trial 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:36.440 rested on who the judge believed, Mike or Saskia. 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:41.280 Mike looked very arrogant and cocky and had no emotion 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:44.960 or feeling. I think he thought that it would be 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:46.800 just a wash. 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:50.760 When Mike and his attorney opened their case, their strategy 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:55.840 was clear. Turned the spotlight off Mike and onto Saskia. 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:59.560 Their goal was to undermine Saskia's credibility. But what does 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:03.840 that really mean. Well, they would have to prove she 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:08.920 wasn't believable. They'd introduce patterns of behavior, aspects of her 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:13.640 character that would show she wasn't a reliable narrator. How 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:16.920 would they do this by saying she'd lost her mind? 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:20.560 She was very depressed, she was unable to get out 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:24.679 for work. I'm depressed, I can't take it. I can't 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:27.360 work to stretching me out. The kids are stretching me out, 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:29.440 like is starting me out. 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:33.160 This is the courtroom audio from the divorce trial. That's 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:36.800 Mike's real voice you just heard, and calling out Saskia's 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:40.520 anxiety and depression wasn't the only way he tried to 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:44.280 undermine her credibility. He also talked a lot about her 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:45.680 use of drugs and alcohol. 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:48.120 She drank the signiat to get him out. 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:52.520 There was douqu on her heart more than mine, very 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:57.920 quickly snowball into seven eight nine drinks. She also received 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:00.840 the adderall and from a friend. When she starts drinking, 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:02.320 she doesn't stop. 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:08.680 All of this was to introduce doubt about Saskia. Saskia's 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:12.400 lawyer objected to a lot of this testimony, arguing that 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:17.560 Mike's side was trying to enter character evidence unfairly, but 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:20.400 the judge allowed Mike to continue. 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:23.600 I felt it goes on the twilight zone. The fact 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:27.480 that the judges were even listening to these things was 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:28.360 blowing my mind. 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:55.800 When sask and Mike's divorce trial began, he was zooming 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:59.880 in from jail and his legal strategy was to discredit 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:02.000 she was very repressed there. 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:05.040 With drug you on her part more than ane. She 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:06.920 starts drinking, she doesn't stop. 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:13.120 Saskia sat through hours and hours of this testimony, listening 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:15.640 to Mike drag out every time she drank too much 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:18.880 and every time she couldn't get out of bed. It 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:22.200 wasn't that these moments hadn't occurred, it was that Mike 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:26.360 was using them to say Saskio was responsible for everything 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:29.400 that happened to her. He was telling the story of 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:32.960 the worst period of her life, but in this story 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:37.320 it was all her fault. She was the one causing chaos. 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:44.000 These things were so dehumanizing and so dismissive of what 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:45.120 I had been through in my pain. 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:49.439 I have to admit it's hard for me to listen 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:53.880 to Mike make this argument without feeling angry. Mike knew 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:58.160 her family's mental health history and how Saskia was determined 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:02.000 to remain stable walk the same path as her dad. 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:07.120 Saska thought Mike was on her team, and yet Mike 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:10.559 had been exploiting her mental illness, her use of alcohol 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:15.640 and drugs for years. Saskia's friend Heather put it best. 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:20.120 It was to his advantage to keep her in this drunken, 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:27.040 drugged up, bad mental health state, because the more vulnerable became, 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:29.920 the easier it became for him to take advantage of her. 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:35.360 But as Mike testified and his attorney spoke, his culpability 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:39.839 faded into the background. He zeroed in on her behaviors, 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:44.720 her imperfections, to show that she shouldn't be trusted and 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:48.840 even that she was to blame. I want you to 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:52.680 hear Mike's account of October twenty seventh, twenty eighteen, the 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:56.000 night of the Halloween party, the night Saskia saw what 0:11:56.200 --> 0:12:00.800 was on Mike's computer screen. The audio isn't perfect, so 0:12:00.920 --> 0:12:03.960 listen closely. Here's his story of that night. 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:10.040 We've been out of the part a home, we're both 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:16.920 stuck and ended up looking at cturbate the website. 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:21.680 When they got home, they went onto Chatterbait, the camming website, 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:25.240 but just as they were logging on, she. 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:28.880 Got up and wanted it off, so kind of it off, 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:35.480 went to bed and that was for the evening. Next morning, 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:41.720 he was very very aggated, wanted to look at the website, 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:48.760 which we did, and then became very focused on my 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:54.120 use of pornography, meaning looking at the website. Without her 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:56.240 that then we became. 0:12:56.160 --> 0:13:00.839 Very emotional, but as all kinds of things. 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:02.720 And that's at the point where. 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:05.640 She stood there in front of the dresser and she 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:08.880 looked at how she said, you know, I now know 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:14.079 be doing and it was just shut the shock and 0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:15.720 out of nowhere. 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:20.880 It's completely floordy that moment when I realized that with 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:22.760 the worm that was going on there. 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:26.840 In Mike's memory, he and Saskia were at a party. 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:30.800 They were both drunk, looked at a website. The next day, 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:35.000 Saskia went crazy on him out of the blue. There 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:39.960 could only be one explanation for all of this. Saskia 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:45.920 was mentally ill. In court, this strategy is often effective. 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:49.680 It plays on misconceptions we all have about what it 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:54.400 means to be a rape victim. If you've watched any 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:58.560 crime show or any courtroom drama, you're probably familiar with 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:00.760 the character of the perfect victim. 0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:03.680 As sure as I live and breathe, William Harris is 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:06.040 the man who raped me in that alley. 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:10.720 Think of Law and Order SVU. There's the perpetrator, the 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:14.920 bad guy, and then there is an innocent victim. She's 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:18.000 written to be brilliant, beautiful, and beyond reproach. 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:20.400 I tried to get away, but I couldn't. 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:22.000 She just left me there. 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:28.560 Storytellers love this archetype. The protagonist is clear, and audiences 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:31.880 love it too. We know exactly who to root for. 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:33.840 There's no room for doubt. 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:40.480 The problem is that most victims don't behave the way 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:43.440 this imaginary perfect victim behaves. 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:48.800 That's Deborah Turkheimer, a professor at Northwestern University Pritzker School 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:49.200 of Law. 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:56.280 I am a former prosecutor and I handled cases involving 0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:57.600 special victims. 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:01.320 Deborah wrote a book called Credible, Why We Doubt accusers 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:06.000 and protect Abusers. She's an expert on sexual violence. She says, 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:10.640 the perfect victim character doesn't just live on screen. She's 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:14.680 the benchmark, the standard that all rape victims are judged 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:18.840 against in the courts and circles of friends everywhere. 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:27.680 The perfect victim standard includes misconceptions about how victims behave 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:32.840 and how they ought to behave before, during, and after 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:41.720 the abuse. Before there ought to be no drinking, no drug. 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:46.040 Use, and Saskia, as we know, was on a lot 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:47.800 of substances when she was raped. 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:53.200 During the abuse, the perfect victim fights, she fights back, 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:54.440 She fights hard. 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:56.800 But Saskia was knocked out. 0:15:57.040 --> 0:16:01.960 And then afterwards, the perfect victim, he's able to recall 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:07.520 with precision every single detail of what happened, which again 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:10.640 Saskia couldn't. 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:15.600 In every way, Saski failed to rise to the perfect 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:19.880 victim standard. The reality is most victims do. 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:26.440 It's unfair to impose a set of rules that, for 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:29.760 the most part, can be followed and aren't followed. 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:33.920 And yet the rules remain and they serve abusers like Mike, 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:38.040 because when victims aren't perfect victims, we can write them 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:42.080 off and we can turn them into other characters. 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:48.760 The regretful woman, so someone who had consensual sex and 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:51.800 then decided it was a mistake and so is now 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:56.680 quote unquote crying rape. The gold digger, someone who is 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:00.440 making this up because she wants money. 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:03.680 And then there's the hysterical woman. 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:07.760 Someone who just really doesn't know what's going on and 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:10.160 doesn't have a firm grasp of reality. 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:13.960 It's one of the oldest and most effective ways to 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:18.480 discredit a victim, to make the judge question their sanity 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:22.560 and doubt what happened to them. Here's Alice Perey, Mike's 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:24.600 attorney from the divorce trial. 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:27.080 What did you see that makes you believe that she 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:27.840 was struggling? 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:32.240 He was very depressed. He was unable to get out 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:35.720 for work. Many many time he was struggling with you 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:37.280 take care of the kids. 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:41.760 He's in which as I'm feeling like shit. How often 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:44.560 would she tell you something like that? 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:49.280 So many times I could not even count. 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:52.440 And with any particular reasons why. 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:58.160 She felt like shit because of this undepressed I can't 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:00.560 take it. I can work as here me out. The 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:03.280 kids are stripping me out like this, step from me out. 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:09.840 By Mike's account, Saska wasn't composed or stable or credible. 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:12.800 She was a woman in the midst of a breakdown. 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:17.760 Her word couldn't and shouldn't be trusted. She had to 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:21.879 have lost touch with reality because, according to Mike, he 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:26.120 and Saskia were camming together having sex on camera all 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:26.600 the time. 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:31.959 How many times had had the two of you canned 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:39.959 on chatterby, you know, two to three dozen hives? And 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:44.720 how many times had you observed other people camming on Chatterbay. 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:46.280 Three four a dozen times? 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:51.439 With the clip became were extremely adventurous. 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:54.480 With not a lot of livius. There were no bound bee. 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:59.720 That was something that they did not experience previously any relationship. 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:04.080 But Mike wasn't asking the judge to take his word 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:08.320 on all this. His divorce attorney, Alice Perey, said she 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:10.399 could prove it. She had a plan. 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:14.240 I would like to really admit all of the pictures 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:17.200 in all of the videos because I think how much 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:19.800 of them is relevant to mike client's case. 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:24.000 And when Alice said all, she wasn't just talking about 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:27.680 the videos from the criminal trial the ones detective rule 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:30.840 recovered from twenty seventeen. In twenty eighteen, there. 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:34.480 Are hundreds of photographs, hundreds of videos, and they take 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:36.960 place over the course of years, in years six. 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:39.760 Or seven or more years. 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:43.000 There was more evidence, much more, and Alice claimed it 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:48.320 would show Saskia consented to everything, every sexual act, every video. 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:54.480 What happened is the defendant has under oath, been fleedings 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:59.360 and requested responses to admissions, just denied everything. Right, never 0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:03.000 post her You're never participated in videos and. 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:05.960 You say this never happened. 0:20:06.000 --> 0:20:09.680 And there is a picture of a living color or 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:13.800 video of it in movie motion Israel. 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:20.359 And according to Alice, it would show that Saskia was 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:46.280 not to be believed in the criminal trial, there were 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:50.720 about thirty videos recovered from Chatterbay. These videos were the 0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:55.919 key to prosecuting and convicting Mike, But in the divorce trial, 0:20:56.240 --> 0:20:59.760 Mike said he never raped Saskia or took images of 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:02.560 her without her consent. She agreed to all of it, 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:05.600 and to back that up, he said that he and 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:08.520 Saskia often made pornography together. 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:11.280 Which was done over the course of seven years, to 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:14.960 the tune of over two hundred photographs and videos. 0:21:15.440 --> 0:21:20.840 Two hundred photographs and videos. His divorce attorney, Alice Perey, 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:22.480 seemed confident the. 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:27.000 Evidence will convinced Repoort that she was a willing participant 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:28.720 in these matters. 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:32.760 While working on this episode, we reached out to Alice Perrey. 0:21:33.480 --> 0:21:39.760 She declined to comment. In these additional images, it wasn't 0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:43.000 just that Saskia's eyes were open, as we've talked about 0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:47.640 in previous episodes. Alice claimed that in lots of instances, 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:51.800 Saskia was a weak and she was posing and performing 0:21:51.840 --> 0:21:55.719 for the camera. If Saskia was saying she'd never consented, 0:21:56.400 --> 0:22:04.200 she was lying or she was delusional. From the early 0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:07.200 days of reporting this season, I knew that there were 0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:12.080 some pictures Mike took off Saskia consensually. Saskia was open 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:16.119 about that with us and with detectives too. The kids 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:18.280 would be out of the house and they'd be drinking, 0:22:18.440 --> 0:22:22.000 having a good time. Then Mike would pull out his phone. 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:25.200 You heard about one of these incidents in episode one. 0:22:25.640 --> 0:22:27.439 I remember one time he took a picture of me 0:22:27.640 --> 0:22:31.120 and showed me how good my butt looked, or something 0:22:31.560 --> 0:22:35.080 like that, and I explicitly asked him, what are you 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:37.800 doing with that picture, and he's like, well, of course, 0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:39.600 I'm going to erase it. I would never show it 0:22:39.600 --> 0:22:40.200 to anybody. 0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:44.639 But she can only remember this happening a handful of times. 0:22:45.480 --> 0:22:49.359 Mike said he had two hundred photographs and videos, and 0:22:49.480 --> 0:22:51.040 most of these images. 0:22:51.320 --> 0:22:54.719 I don't remember taking them. I never knew of their existence. 0:22:56.680 --> 0:23:00.000 All of this brings up another painful truth about rape case. 0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:05.360 No matter the corroboration, no matter the amount of prosecutors, 0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:09.360 family members, and experts standing behind a victim. 0:23:09.119 --> 0:23:13.720 There's an initial default doubt that is sort of culturally 0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:14.800 ingrained in US. 0:23:16.200 --> 0:23:20.480 That's law professor Debrah Turkheimer. Again. She says, doubt is 0:23:20.560 --> 0:23:22.359 built into the crime of rape. 0:23:22.520 --> 0:23:27.159 It's really difficult in the criminal setting to get past 0:23:27.280 --> 0:23:30.160 that very high standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. 0:23:30.280 --> 0:23:34.240 And that's true of every crime, but it's especially true 0:23:34.480 --> 0:23:41.359 of rape. Historically, there were special instructions that were given 0:23:41.800 --> 0:23:46.840 to juries that said you should be even more cautious 0:23:46.920 --> 0:23:51.639 about convicting in this case because accusers are so untrustworthy. 0:23:52.520 --> 0:23:56.439 Now those formal instructions aren't given, but we still have 0:23:56.840 --> 0:23:58.040 a default to. 0:23:58.080 --> 0:24:02.000 Doubt when someone comes forward. That's true even in a 0:24:02.080 --> 0:24:04.320 case like this where there's so much. 0:24:04.160 --> 0:24:07.840 Evidence, even sometimes when it's on video right, there are 0:24:08.119 --> 0:24:09.360 questions of interpretation. 0:24:11.840 --> 0:24:14.679 No judge or jury can turn back the clock to 0:24:14.760 --> 0:24:17.320 be in the room at the time a rape happened, 0:24:18.080 --> 0:24:20.480 and no one can get into the minds or bodies 0:24:20.480 --> 0:24:23.600 of the people involved. And that's also a challenge for 0:24:23.720 --> 0:24:27.320 us as reporters. That's my producer, Caitlyn Golden. 0:24:27.960 --> 0:24:31.800 We can't go back in time, and so in understanding 0:24:31.880 --> 0:24:35.000 the story, the only thing we can do is rely 0:24:35.240 --> 0:24:37.600 on the evidence that is available to us. 0:24:38.680 --> 0:24:42.240 When it comes to images like these, attorneys will always 0:24:42.240 --> 0:24:46.120 make arguments of what was really going on. But our 0:24:46.119 --> 0:24:49.520 team didn't understand the degree to which these were just 0:24:49.760 --> 0:24:56.639 arguments until we saw the images for ourselves. After months 0:24:56.640 --> 0:24:59.960 of reporting, we finally got access to the case files 0:25:00.400 --> 0:25:03.919 from the divorce and the criminal case. We saw the 0:25:04.000 --> 0:25:07.040 kinds of photos we heard so much about from Mike's attorney, 0:25:07.680 --> 0:25:12.320 ones where Saskia's eyes were open. One in particular has 0:25:12.359 --> 0:25:13.280 stuck with us. 0:25:13.720 --> 0:25:16.119 I remember the first time I saw that photo and 0:25:16.160 --> 0:25:20.719 I had to immediately close my laptop because I mean, 0:25:20.760 --> 0:25:26.080 it's so hard to describe as anything other than horrific. 0:25:25.640 --> 0:25:32.000 Like, yeah, she's not there. No, No, she isn't there. 0:25:32.480 --> 0:25:35.119 I hate even describing it, but the only way I 0:25:35.160 --> 0:25:39.440 could describe what I saw is it's like a corpse 0:25:39.440 --> 0:25:44.240 with her eyes open. It's really upsetting. So when I 0:25:44.280 --> 0:25:47.639 look at that photo, I think, of course, she doesn't 0:25:47.640 --> 0:25:48.080 remember this. 0:25:48.359 --> 0:25:52.640 Yeah, And the idea that images like this where her 0:25:52.640 --> 0:25:56.600 eyes are open or being used to say that she 0:25:56.680 --> 0:25:59.720 was awake and consented to everything. 0:26:00.160 --> 0:26:05.160 Mm hmm, is so disturbing. Seeing this image, it felt 0:26:05.240 --> 0:26:10.160 clearer than ever what happened to Saskia is real, it matters, 0:26:11.080 --> 0:26:19.240 and Mike, not Saskia, is to blame. But in the 0:26:19.280 --> 0:26:22.560 divorce trial back in twenty twenty one, there was only 0:26:22.600 --> 0:26:25.080 one person that needed to be convinced of all this, 0:26:25.960 --> 0:26:30.280 that was the judge, and Saskia was unsure what she'd 0:26:30.280 --> 0:26:31.280 make of these images. 0:26:31.800 --> 0:26:33.760 I knew that I wasn't going to be given the 0:26:33.760 --> 0:26:35.040 benefit of the doubt. 0:26:35.640 --> 0:26:38.960 Before Mike's attorney could show the videos, the judge asked 0:26:38.960 --> 0:26:42.560 to review the content herself. She stepped into her chambers 0:26:42.680 --> 0:26:47.240 to watch in private. As everyone waited for the judge 0:26:47.280 --> 0:26:50.800 to return, Saskia sat in her kitchen, staring at Mike 0:26:50.880 --> 0:26:54.200 through her screen. The man who'd hurt her was now 0:26:54.240 --> 0:26:58.000 in jail. He was just a little box on zoom, 0:26:58.520 --> 0:27:03.159 and yet he had power to make her feel so small. 0:27:03.400 --> 0:27:06.439 He was the one behind bars, But the judge was 0:27:06.480 --> 0:27:10.480 deliberating over Saskia's actions, her character. 0:27:11.119 --> 0:27:14.800