1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: Welcome to Crash Courts, a podcast about business, political, and 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: social disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: Tim O'Brien. Today's crash course Pity City versus the workplace. 4 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: Imagine you worked for, say, a global furniture company, a 5 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: big one, one that hauled in around four billion dollars 6 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: last year, and you asked your boss whether bonuses are 7 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: on the way, and this is how she responds. 8 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 2: Don't ask about what are we going to do if 9 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 2: you don't get a bonus. Spend your time and your 10 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 2: effort thinking about the twenty six million dollars we need 11 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 2: and not thinking about what are you going to do 12 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 2: if we don't get a bonus? All right? Can I 13 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 2: get some commitment for that? I would appreciate that. I 14 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 2: had an old boss who said to me one time, 15 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 2: you can visit pitty City, but you can't live there, 16 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 2: so people leave PITYCD. Let's get it done. 17 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: That's Andy Owen, the CEO of Miller Knowle, the big 18 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: furniture company I mentioned, And that's audio from a conference 19 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: call she had with her employees. Video Clips from the 20 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: meeting went viral, sneering millions of views on Twitter alone. 21 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: The company said Owen's comments were taken out of context 22 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: and that she's committed to her team, but in a 23 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 1: still newly post COVID world in workplace, Owen's advice about 24 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: traveling to Pitty City struck a nerve. Of course it would. 25 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: There are so many tensions still at play in blue 26 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 1: collar and white collar workplaces. Work from home is a flashpoint, 27 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:33,839 Speaker 1: so are wages, obviously, and balancing work and gratification, all 28 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: in the shadow of a pandemic that took about seven 29 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: million lives globally. Joining me to talk about pitty City 30 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 1: and more is Sarah Green Carmichael, a columnist and editor 31 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: for Bloomberg Opinion. Sarah writes and edits with grace and insight, 32 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: and I guess I'm putting myself on the crosshairs here 33 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: because I'm also her boss. 34 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 3: Howdy, Sarah, It's so lovely to be here tim with you. 35 00:01:57,640 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: It's fun. I was looking forward to having a session 36 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: with you. Okay, let's start with pity City. In a 37 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: recent column about the brew Haha around Owen, you asked, 38 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,399 Speaker 1: do our bosses think we're whiners? I'll say out front, 39 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 1: Sarah that I don't think you are. You also have 40 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: this pointed observation, paranoia thrives in the polite inauthenticity that 41 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 1: workplaces so often require. The version of Owen portrayed in 42 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: the video appears to offer confirmation that executives who seem 43 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: reasonable and gracious and public are secretly fed up with 44 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: us in private. So Sarah, unpack that so you and 45 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: I can talk a little bit about it. 46 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 3: Yeah. 47 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 4: I think what really struck me about this video was 48 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 4: that in the first chunk of the video, Owen seems 49 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 4: like almost an ideal CEO. She's sort of like, focus 50 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 4: on the future, focus on the things you can control. 51 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 3: We will get through this together. This is a difficult. 52 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 4: Time for an office furniture company, obviously, you know, people 53 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 4: not going to the office. And then there's this very 54 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 4: sudden shift, and I have to confess I almost wondered, 55 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 4: I'm like, am I watching a deep fake? Has this 56 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 4: video been edited? Because all of a sudden, she just 57 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 4: shifts into this kind of scary boss mode where she's 58 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 4: talking very fast and is suddenly sort of seemingly angrily 59 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 4: ripping into people. And to me, that really, I guess 60 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 4: spoke to a deep seated fear. I think many employees 61 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 4: have which is that their boss is very good at 62 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 4: presenting a professional demeanor, a sort of placid demeanor, but 63 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 4: that lurking underneath it is this desire to say, get 64 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 4: your act together, stop complaining, come back to the office, 65 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 4: you know, get your bum in the chair, like this 66 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 4: sort of fed up feeling. And I think that it 67 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 4: is natural as an employee. I got some pushback on 68 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 4: this from readers who said, I don't really care what 69 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 4: my boss thinks. I don't have a complex about what 70 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 4: powerful people think of me. I think that's a little 71 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 4: Some people may truly be free of those judgments. 72 00:03:58,440 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 3: Good for them. 73 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,119 Speaker 1: Most, however, do you have little metals that you send 74 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:04,119 Speaker 1: those those people who write. 75 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 3: You, they get a self esteem trophy. 76 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 4: But I think that most of us evidence would show 77 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 4: do care what powerful people think. Most evidence suggests that 78 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 4: one of the fun things about having power is that 79 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 4: you do not obsess about what less powerful think of you, 80 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 4: in the same way that when you have less power, 81 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 4: you're constantly thinking about you know, does this person approve 82 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 4: of me? Am I meeting expectations? Am I reading too 83 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 4: much into this? You know, that's just human nature. So 84 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 4: to me, I thought her comments and specifically the way 85 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 4: that they came seemingly out of nowhere after a very 86 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 4: reasonable presentation that it is probably why they struck such 87 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 4: a chord with people. 88 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: But is this really a new phenomenon or even a 89 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 1: COVID phenomenon? You know, I remember as a little kid 90 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: like watching The Flintstones. I don't even know if that's 91 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 1: still out there for kids to watch. I always thought 92 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: it was a profoundly weird cartoon to little kids because 93 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,559 Speaker 1: it was about adults, and it was about adults living 94 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: in the Stone Age dealing with adult problems. But they 95 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 1: were anyway pitching at the kids. And you know, in 96 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 1: the show, Fred Flintstone was always paranoid about his boss, 97 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: mister Slat or whatever his name was, And Fred would 98 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 1: come home weary and want a Bronto burger because he 99 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: had such a bad day at work. Hasn't it always 100 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 1: been thus that workers have worried about whether their bosses 101 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 1: were power tripping them or lying to them. 102 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 4: Yes, I think in some ways it has always been us. 103 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 4: I think what's different now is we are able to 104 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 4: see these moments go viral in a way that we 105 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 4: wouldn't have before. You know, if this had happened before, COVID. 106 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 4: This would have been an in person, all hands meeting. 107 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 4: People in the room might have been shocked. Maybe comments 108 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 4: would have been leaked to some media organization, But if 109 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 4: you just see a transcript of those remarks, it doesn't 110 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 4: hit you the same way seeing the video. So I 111 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 4: think in part it's actually seeing the video of how 112 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 4: these conversations go that's different. And I also think that 113 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 4: we are in an economic moment where we are perhaps 114 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 4: coming to the end of a fifteen year long economic expansion, 115 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:01,679 Speaker 4: and so there's a lot of people in the workplace 116 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 4: who have not been through a contraction like this before, 117 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 4: and the last three years of COVID are literally a 118 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 4: once in a lifetime experience. You know, the US has 119 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 4: not the world has not been through something like this 120 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 4: in one hundred years. So this is also having I think, 121 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 4: different impacts on the workforce. 122 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 1: So this issue about, you know, whether executives seem reasonable 123 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: and gracious or actually are reasonable and gracious. Is there 124 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 1: anything any manager can really do that crosses that divide 125 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: of both paranoia and suspicion and also maybe just outright 126 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: reality in some cases that no one is going to 127 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: believe you're as well intentioned as you say you are. 128 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 3: Hmmm, I think that you know. 129 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 4: I have asked different sort of experts in workplace trust 130 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 4: and leadership some version of this question, and what they 131 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 4: have all said to me is that you build trust 132 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 4: in having these conversations, not in avoiding them. So often 133 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 4: there's an impulse to try to build trust. 134 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 3: In other ways. 135 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 4: Right you go on a corporate retreat, you do trust 136 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,479 Speaker 4: falls like whatever you chitchat before the meeting, but that 137 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 4: actually the primary way you can build trust is like 138 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 4: over time, being there, being consistent, being the kind of 139 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 4: boss who brings these fears out into the open, or 140 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 4: who's there for someone when they are dealing with an 141 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 4: illness or a new baby, and that over time there 142 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 4: is trust that builds up sort of through that. I 143 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 4: think that this is also we could get into, like 144 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 4: the rise of authenticity in the workplace and vulnerability. There 145 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 4: have been a lot of thought leaders kind of calling 146 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 4: for more authenticity and vulnerability in the workplace, and some 147 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 4: workplaces are very encouraging of sort of bring your whole 148 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 4: self to work. That has pros and cons like that's 149 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 4: not a free lunch. But I do think that you know, 150 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 4: in some ways those movements are an attempt to bridge 151 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:48,239 Speaker 4: the divide between managers and employees. 152 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: And to keep people from visiting pity City. Yes, is 153 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 1: it inevitable that paranoia is just going to hang over 154 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: any kinds of groups or organizations. People ex experience it 155 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: in their relationships, people experience it in their families. Is 156 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: the workplace just another conglomeration of people moving forward in 157 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: sometimes specific and often unspecific ways, and they're all worried 158 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: that either they're not performing well or they're not loved. 159 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that 160 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 4: has always stayed with me, although it's easier to know 161 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 4: it than to enact it, but is bad is stronger 162 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 4: than good in psychology? Right, So criticism weighs more heavily 163 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 4: on people than praise does lift them. People react more 164 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 4: strongly when something's taken away than when they get an 165 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 4: unexpected bonus. And I think if you are a leader 166 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 4: in an organization and you know that, then you know 167 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 4: that your criticism will be remembered, probably for a long time, 168 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,719 Speaker 4: but your praise will quickly be unfortunately forgotten. So I 169 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 4: think knowing that you know, hopefully managers will remember to 170 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 4: give praise much more frequently than they give criticism, but yeah, 171 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 4: I think human beings, you know, we are a funny species, 172 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 4: and there's probably paranoia in a lot of interactions, and actually, 173 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 4: you know what we have to do is figure out 174 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 4: ways to manage around that and work through it and 175 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 4: not sort of wish it away. 176 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: Okay. On that note, I want to say, Sarah, I 177 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: think you're the best. 178 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 3: Awesome, thank you so glad I came on the show. 179 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 1: You know, your column was so provocative and good that 180 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: I'm going to read a lot from it. And I 181 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 1: wanted to note to our listeners that in the show 182 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: notes for the podcast you can find links to this 183 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: specific column that Sarah and I are speaking about, and 184 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: others that we'll mention the show as well. So let's 185 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: examine another observation from your column, and I quote a 186 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 1: degree of employee here has driven similar moments of managerial 187 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: candor to the top of most red lists. When JP 188 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 1: Morgan Chase CEO Jamie Diamond says remote work doesn't work 189 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: and calls managing directors back to the office five days 190 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: a week, it prompts other workers to wonder if their 191 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: bosses will follow his example. When a manager is caught 192 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: on camera saying she's quote unquote tired of babying people. 193 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: It goes viral on TikTok because viewers worry their supervisors 194 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:13,559 Speaker 1: too think that way. Okay, Sarah, So staying on our 195 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: theme here, is there too much cracking of the whip 196 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: by CEOs and managers these days? 197 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 4: Boy, let me think about that one. I think that 198 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,839 Speaker 4: there is too much worrying about things that maybe don't matter. 199 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 4: I don't think that FaceTime in the office is a 200 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 4: good proxy for someone's value as an employee, but it 201 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 4: is the proxy that we have always used in a 202 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 4: flawed world to measure how committed someone is to their job. 203 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 4: And I think in a world of hybrid and remote work, 204 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 4: suddenly managers who were used to sort of measuring people 205 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 4: by are they the first one in? Are they the 206 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 4: last one out at the end of the day now 207 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 4: are sort of struggling with that. I think we are 208 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 4: seeing more companies install this kind of employee monitoring software, 209 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 4: which I just think is all full and they are 210 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 4: measuring the wrong things. You know, you hear stories about 211 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 4: people sitting in meetings with their laptops, moving the mouse 212 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 4: on their laptop so they get credit for doing work 213 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 4: because otherwise the meeting won't count as work because there's 214 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 4: no one making any keystrokes. I think that you always 215 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 4: get some results in employee behavior in terms of what 216 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 4: you're measuring, but if what you're measuring is badge ins 217 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 4: to the office or keystrokes, you will miss a whole. 218 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 3: Dimension of human performance. 219 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 4: So I think I see too much executive enforcement around 220 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,319 Speaker 4: these sort of proxy measures and not enough executives talking 221 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 4: about what are the things we are really trying to 222 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 4: deliver to customers, what is the value we are creating, 223 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 4: what is our productivity? You know, how many articles are 224 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 4: we publishing, how many chairs are we selling? Like, what 225 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 4: is the impact we are having in the world as 226 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,319 Speaker 4: opposed to our people coming into the office and you know, 227 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 4: just taking attendance basically. 228 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,199 Speaker 1: So is going to the office pointless? 229 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 4: I don't think it's pointless, And I think in some 230 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,199 Speaker 4: ways the trust issues we have now it is possible 231 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 4: that they are exacerbates to buy remote work. But to me, 232 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 4: what is important about the office is that people when 233 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,079 Speaker 4: they're in the office actually interact in some way. There 234 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 4: is some benefit to being there, and I think even 235 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 4: now when people go into the office, they're kind of 236 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 4: doing email from a different location, they're doing zoom calls 237 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 4: from a different location. So I think to get the 238 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 4: benefit of the office requires thinking of it differently and requires, 239 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 4: you know, thinking of remote work differently too. 240 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: So it's not pointless, but it doesn't need five days 241 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:30,319 Speaker 1: a week to have a point. Is that what you're 242 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: saying exactly? Well, then what about the impact of all 243 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: of this on these urban cores we love so much. 244 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: There's commercial office vacancies that are gutting urban downtowns. Public 245 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: transit is suffering because commuters aren't using those services as much. 246 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: Small businesses that just depend on vibrant urban cores thronging 247 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: with eager workers happily going in five days a week 248 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: are all suffering. And do you think that that's just fine? 249 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: And this is part of an epic transition that a 250 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: public health crisis forced us to engage with. 251 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,679 Speaker 4: I think it is really difficult, and I think it 252 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 4: is probably inevitable. The way that I see this remote 253 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 4: work shift happening is similar to the transition away from 254 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 4: CDs and DVDs that we saw, you know, when music 255 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 4: and video started streaming, And what you saw in that 256 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 4: case was like the CEO of Tower Records and the 257 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 4: CEO of Blockbuster Video really trying to put the toothpaste 258 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 4: back in the tube and it didn't go in. I mean, 259 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 4: there have just been huge, huge changes in retail over 260 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 4: the years, enabled by the Internet, and it was foolish 261 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 4: to think that that would never come for work. You know, 262 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 4: work also had now happens predominantly online, and for years 263 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 4: before COVID, most of what I did in the office 264 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 4: was sending emails to people who were sitting right next 265 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 4: to me. And it seems like this is the inevitable 266 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 4: intern notification of our lives. In some ways, the fact 267 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 4: that these urban cores are so affected is because of 268 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 4: the investments that we have made over the last fifty years. 269 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 4: We didn't invest, especially in America, in public transit systems 270 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 4: or affordable housing that made it possible for people to 271 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 4: either live near their jobs downtown or to quickly get there. 272 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 4: And so now what we see is, yes, people moved 273 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 4: out of the cities to live affordably, and then it 274 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 4: turned out it was very difficult to get back into 275 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 4: those cities, and we didn't put in the investments to 276 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 4: change any of that. But we did build amazingly fast internet, 277 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 4: and now that Internet is filling the sort of void 278 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 4: left behind by our failures to invest in public transit 279 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 4: and our failures to fix the housing crisis. 280 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:49,359 Speaker 1: And of course, cities themselves are reflections of the specific 281 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: kinds of economic engines that create them to begin with, 282 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: so as those economic engines change, the complexion and structure 283 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: of cities adapts over time. I guess per the interesting 284 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: narrative you just laid out, right, yeah. 285 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 4: I think it will shift. I think there will be 286 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 4: something that's on the other side of it. It probably 287 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 4: will not be pretty to get there, but I do 288 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 4: think the transition is inevitable, and mayors who are sort 289 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 4: of begging people to do our long commutes to come 290 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 4: into their cities and send emails from a different building 291 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 4: are just whistling past the graveyard or missing the point. 292 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,119 Speaker 1: You know. And in terms of like the business comparisons 293 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: you were making with Blockbuster, I think an interesting one 294 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: is Netflix, which made its initial harvest on DVDs. It 295 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: just announced in its most recent earnings call that it 296 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: was no longer going to send DVDs to people, but 297 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: it took a corporate risk by going full bore into 298 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: streaming when no one else was and basically said, the 299 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: world changed, so we are now going to completely adapt, 300 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: even if it's risky. And perhaps that's one of the 301 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 1: apt comparisons too, if you're comparing corporations to workplaces in 302 00:15:58,880 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: a post COVID world. 303 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 4: Yes, if I had to give out a sort of 304 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 4: a hopeful vision, my hope is that the shift we're 305 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 4: seeing will make it more possible for the people who 306 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 4: really need to be downtown to live closer to where 307 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 4: they have to work. You know, there's a story in 308 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 4: the Boston Globe of a woman who cleans office buildings 309 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 4: who spends four hours a day on public transit to 310 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 4: get to her job that only lasts for four hours, 311 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 4: and sometimes because of the way the Boston train schedules work, 312 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 4: you know, she's not getting home till midnight. And I'm 313 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 4: hoping that in the future housing will become more affordable 314 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 4: for people who are in a job like that where 315 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 4: they really have to be there, because maybe some of 316 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 4: those old office buildings will become apartment complexes. I'm hoping 317 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 4: that the future is better than the past, of course, 318 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 4: but the middle's going to be messy. 319 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: Well, So on that note of hope. I hope you 320 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: will hang around with me for a minute, because I'm 321 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: going to take a break so we can hear from 322 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 1: one of our sponsors, and we will be right back. 323 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: We're back with Sarah Green Carmichael, a Bloomberg opinion columnist. Sarah, 324 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: we've been talking about the office as both a thing 325 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 1: and an idea and a source of paranoia and a 326 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: source of money for people, and I want to stay 327 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:15,400 Speaker 1: on that for a minute and discuss the work from 328 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: home rto debate. There's something of a generational divide around this, 329 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: at least in our company, Bloomberg LP, and other companies 330 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: that I've spoken to, or people i've spoken to a 331 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: work at other companies, A lot of settled workers, not 332 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: necessarily older, but more settled in their careers, who have 333 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: family lives or young families, are happy to work away 334 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: from the office because they've already had the culture of 335 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: the company inculcated in within themselves and in their careers, 336 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: and they've learned about the specific culture that makes a 337 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:55,880 Speaker 1: specific company hum if it's a successful company. But younger 338 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,400 Speaker 1: workers who are less settled in their lives, they're new 339 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 1: to the work world, they want to learn about the 340 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: culture of a company. They've actually missed at times being 341 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 1: in a place where they could gather with other people 342 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: their own age, socialize with them, work with them, learn 343 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 1: from mentors in a hands on way rather than over zoom, 344 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: Am I setting up a false divide? And if I'm not, 345 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: what do you think about it? 346 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't think it's a false divide at all, 347 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 4: because this is what all the polling shows is that 348 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 4: younger workers are more interested in being in the office. 349 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,119 Speaker 4: They also live in smaller apartments full of roommates. It's 350 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 4: it's sort of not an ideal, you know, work from 351 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 4: home setup, but that people who maybe have childcare responsibilities, 352 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 4: or who live further away, or who are more settled 353 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 4: in their careers, you know, it's less popular with them 354 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,199 Speaker 4: to go in. That seems absolutely true and accurate in 355 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 4: some ways. I think this is why companies have tried 356 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 4: to embrace hybrid, not going fully remote, but not I 357 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 4: think sort of five days a week. Is that the 358 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 4: idea being that we will get people together some of 359 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 4: the time. I think part of the challenge is, you know, 360 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 4: and I think back to years ago when I was 361 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 4: a young worker, how I learned things in the office. 362 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:09,439 Speaker 4: It was often by being interrupted, interrupting other people, overhearing things, 363 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 4: often things that were maybe to some people annoying to overhear. 364 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 4: You know a colleague who's too loud on the phone, 365 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 4: for example. I learned so much from eavesdropping on phone 366 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 4: calls from people who were too loud on the phone, 367 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 4: Like how. 368 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 3: Do we talk to authors? How do we talk to 369 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 3: each other? 370 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:24,159 Speaker 1: Like? 371 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 4: That's what you pick up from being in the office. 372 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 4: And now I think that people have gotten used to 373 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 4: working in their very you know, sometimes very quiet, more 374 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 4: controlled environments. Those interruptions are even more irritating to people. Oh, 375 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 4: if you have to do a phone call, why wouldn't 376 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 4: you just work from home today? It's tricky. I think 377 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 4: that we have to figure out some new way of mentoring. 378 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:45,120 Speaker 4: Maybe it's less osmosis learning and more hands on, planful mentoring. 379 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 4: But there has to be some way to kind of 380 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 4: transmit what the older generation knows to younger workers and 381 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 4: for the older workers frankly, to learn from the energy 382 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 4: and fresh ideas of younger people. But that doesn't involved 383 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,719 Speaker 4: as people randomly overhearing stuff and the office. 384 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: Well, why should we happily settled older workers be cramming 385 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 1: down this idea of work from home down the throats 386 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: of younger workers who want some mentoring, want to learn 387 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,360 Speaker 1: about a corporate culture, actually want to be in the office. 388 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 3: Well, all workplaces are compromises, right. 389 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 4: There are compromises on space, there are compromises on dress code, 390 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 4: there are compromises on professional norms. I think that we 391 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 4: have to somehow have a workplace and a company culture 392 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 4: that works for working parents, that works for workers closer 393 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 4: to retirement, that works for younger workers. This means meeting 394 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 4: a bunch of people's needs probably pretty well, and no 395 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 4: one's needs absolutely perfectly. Unless you're truly amazing company with 396 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 4: great flexible policies, then maybe you can pull it off. 397 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:43,920 Speaker 1: You know. One of the other things that's sort of 398 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: stayed with me throughout the pandemic is the profound class 399 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: divide that came up around how it affected people, particularly 400 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: blue collar versus white collar workers. But there were many 401 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 1: others racial divides, income divides, suburban cities, on and on 402 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 1: and on. But blue collar workers during COVID didn't have 403 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,640 Speaker 1: the luxury often of being able to decide to work 404 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:14,440 Speaker 1: from home like lawyers and financiers and journalists and others 405 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: are able to do. They had to show up at 406 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 1: the grocery store, they had to show up in the 407 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: meat packing plant. They were deemed frontline workers, obviously nurses 408 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:28,199 Speaker 1: and hospitals, and they they've never had this opportunity to 409 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: just randomly decide that the world of work has changed 410 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: and therefore their workplace must follow suit. Do you have 411 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: any thoughts on that. 412 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 3: I do. It's complicated. I don't want to be overly. 413 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,160 Speaker 4: Reductionists, because you know, there are some very highly paid 414 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 4: workers who have to go in a brain surgeon, cannot 415 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 4: do it over zoom, you know, and there are some 416 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 4: very low paid workers who could work from home, like 417 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 4: a call center worker. Right, So it doesn't map perfectly 418 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 4: onto earning power. But undoubtedly I think professionals in our 419 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 4: society have always had more power in terms of setting 420 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 4: their own schedules, in terms of determining their own working conditions. 421 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 3: I think that. 422 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 4: One area where I really see the sort of vibe 423 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 4: shift changing very quickly is around what motivates professional workers. 424 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 4: So I think for the last fifteen years especially, but 425 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 4: for longer than that, but especially over the last fifteen years, 426 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,880 Speaker 4: there's been this real drive to hire people who are 427 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 4: innately very motivated. There's this idea that talent and commitment 428 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 4: sort of rise together. We want to hire. This is 429 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 4: what I sort of hear from the people who work 430 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 4: in talent management is like, you hire really committed people, 431 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 4: you hire entrepreneurial people, you hire highly intrinsically motivated people, 432 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 4: and then the manager's job is just get out of 433 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 4: their way, let them do what they do best, maybe 434 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 4: remove some obstacles from their path. And these employees will 435 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 4: work long hours, they will give one hundred and ten percent, 436 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 4: They will contribute to an ownership culture. You know, we're 437 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 4: told that company culture eats strategy for breakfast. This is 438 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 4: all seen as essential. And I think that's a very 439 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 4: different kind of employment contract than you have with a 440 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 4: blue collar worker, where there is maybe an hourly wage, 441 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,120 Speaker 4: but you're also not expected to work when you're not working. 442 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 4: In a blue collar job, there's not the same I 443 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 4: think expectation that you're checking your email at all hours 444 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 4: of the day and night, or that you are working 445 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,440 Speaker 4: weekends without at least making a little bit more money 446 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 4: or making overtime. And in salary jobs, it's I think 447 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 4: very much the expectation now among these professional level jobs 448 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 4: that you would maybe give a little extra time in 449 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 4: the weekend if you had to, or in the evening 450 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 4: if a client needed it. So I do see this 451 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 4: divide coming up between these two types of jobs. It 452 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 4: goes far beyond remote work and goes to the core 453 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 4: I think of how people are incentivized and motivated. 454 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: All right, well, continuing to speak about divides, you have 455 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: a very compelling pair of thoughts at the end of 456 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 1: your column, and I'd like to explore each of them. 457 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: So here's the first. In the context of our famous 458 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: Pity City ceo, Andy Owen, you think about her situation 459 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: first and foremost as a female CEO, and you have 460 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: this insightful thought. Female CEOs in particular face pressure to 461 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: hide their frustration with employees behind a mask of empathy. 462 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: Decades of research has shown that women leaders are expected 463 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: to exude warmth in a way their male peers aren't. 464 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 1: At the same time, women can't seem quote too nice unquote, 465 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: or they will be dismissed as incompetent. It's a double 466 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 1: bind that takes enormous skill to navigate. So talk about 467 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: that phenomenon generally before we talk about Andy Owens specifically sure. 468 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 4: So in the literature on female leaders a couple of 469 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,640 Speaker 4: things are true. One is that they in survey after 470 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 4: a survey are generally rated as better performers than male leaders. 471 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 4: So what this says to me is not that women 472 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,199 Speaker 4: are innately better leaders, but that it is harder to 473 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 4: advance as of women in leadership, so that only the 474 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 4: very most qualified women are getting through. The second thing 475 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,679 Speaker 4: that has been proven over and over again is this 476 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 4: what they call the warmth competence trade off. Where as 477 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 4: a woman, you need to be seen as warm, but 478 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 4: if you're seen as too warm or too nice, then 479 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 4: you're sort of easy to dismiss as a cream puff. 480 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 4: If you lead with competence, and you lead with your 481 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 4: smarts and your competitiveness, you are inevitably seen as something 482 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:20,160 Speaker 4: that rhymes with which. 483 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 3: And you can't. 484 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 4: You sort of have to be both at the same time, 485 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 4: but our stereotypes about women make it very difficult to 486 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 4: actually telegraph both at. 487 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,400 Speaker 1: The same time, and you see Owen as possibly trapped 488 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,199 Speaker 1: by that kind of dichotomy. You note that she actually 489 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 1: tried to empathize with employees in early parts of the 490 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 1: video call with her team that didn't go viral, And 491 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,679 Speaker 1: if you sit through the entire video, there's this sudden 492 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: shift in tone at the end, and we get all 493 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 1: of that pity city stuff, and you conclude your column 494 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: this way. It isn't the empathetic quote version of Owen 495 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,880 Speaker 1: viewers see in the video's conclusion, where the sudden revelation 496 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 1: of a tougher, more judgmental boss comes as a shock. 497 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: To an employee, it's alarming, but to an executive, perhaps 498 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:12,120 Speaker 1: the emotion it stirs is envy. Wow, let's talk about 499 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: that one. 500 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:13,880 Speaker 3: Did you feel envious? 501 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:14,120 Speaker 1: Tim? 502 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 3: Do you want to yell at us? 503 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 4: No? 504 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 1: I honestly, I'm always disturbed when these videos and audios 505 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 1: go around of these people saying what I consider to 506 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: be absolutely bonkers in sensitive things to employees who are 507 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: looking for clarity and support. And I think sometimes you 508 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 1: have to speak candidly to employees who aren't performing. I 509 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,159 Speaker 1: think that's good for both sides in that equation. But 510 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: you can do that in an empathetic way that is 511 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 1: also tough, minded and clear. But to sort of randomly 512 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: engage in strange historyonics that evoke journeys to the twilight 513 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 1: zone because you're asking basic questions about your compensation. You 514 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,919 Speaker 1: somehow aren't focused on the right things, or aren't motivated, 515 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: or aren't sufficiently committed. So absolutely no, I had no hope. Yeah, 516 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 1: I had no envy for that one. But taking me 517 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: out of this and thinking about the managerial class, which 518 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: is still predominantly male in the United States, predominantly white male, 519 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: I can't speak for all of them, and I get 520 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: so frequently embarrassed by my fellow men in the world 521 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: that I'm not prepared to say that they weren't envious 522 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: of Andy Owen being a tough cookie in this situation. 523 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 1: So I'm actually asking you to enlighten me as to 524 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: whether the great mass of hard case bosses out there 525 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: are envious of one another. 526 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,680 Speaker 4: I think that there is some evidence to suggest that 527 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 4: in this moment, bosses have been through a lot. They've 528 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 4: managed three years of incredible uncertainty with COVID. Now the 529 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 4: economy is slowing down, people are simply not obeying their 530 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:58,880 Speaker 4: orders to come back to the office. I think there's 531 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 4: a certain amount of just fed up inness that is 532 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 4: happening and frustration, And I got some reader emails to 533 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 4: that effect. 534 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 1: You know, after it's colled when you see as legitimate 535 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: frustration or illegitimate. 536 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 4: I'm not going to invalidate anyone's feelings. Those feelings are valid, 537 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 4: not all feelings. 538 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: I really like how I love how you want everyone 539 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: to be validated and you don't want to invalidate anyone. 540 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: But really tell me do you think that that's valid 541 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:24,879 Speaker 1: or not. 542 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 4: I do not think it is effective leadership to lose 543 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 4: your patience with employees, Let's put it that way. I 544 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 4: think the feelings are understandable. I think that it is 545 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 4: really difficult in moments when you were feeling extremely frustrated. 546 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 4: As I know I get frustrated at times. The temptation 547 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 4: is to just let fly, to just sort of say 548 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 4: I've had enough. I will break through to you somehow, 549 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 4: But that's almost never effective. That almost never works. People 550 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 4: get defensive, They misconstrue your words because of. 551 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 3: The tone you used. 552 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 4: I think that one of the skills of leadership is 553 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 4: thinking about what is the goal I want? What is 554 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 4: the outcome of the conversation, and how can I make 555 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 4: sure that this conversation leads that goal. I did wonder 556 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 4: as I was watching this video and writing this column, 557 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 4: am I being too hard on Andy? 558 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 3: Owen. Would I judge a male. 559 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 4: CEO who had sort of chastised his employee this way, 560 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 4: But I think, to be honest, I think that I 561 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 4: would have. I mean, we've just seen in the UK 562 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 4: dominic Rob stepped down for allegations of bullying staff. There's 563 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 4: another viral CEO video that went viral a few days 564 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 4: later with a male CEO for the tone that he 565 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 4: used with employees. To me, the answer is to not 566 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 4: lower our standards for women in leadership. It's to raise 567 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 4: our standards from men in leadership and expect everyone to 568 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 4: lead with clarity and compassion. 569 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: Well said Sarah. I'm going to take another break right 570 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: now so we can hear from a sponsor, and we're 571 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: going to come back to this very fetching theme. We're 572 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: continuing to discuss about the workplace. We're back. Our guest 573 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: today is Sarah Green Carmichael, a Bloomberg opinion editor and columnist, 574 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: and we're talking about the post COVID workplace, which Sarah 575 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: has examined in many of its different facets. And she's 576 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: also written about what a mess affordable and readily available 577 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: childcare is and how that's another facet of work life. 578 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: That's come into sharp relief in the COVID era. Let's 579 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about that. Educate me and our 580 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 1: listeners about the hurdles that childcare presents to workers these days. 581 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 4: Yes, well, how much more time do we have? I 582 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 4: would have hoped that we had come out of COVID 583 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 4: with a really clear understanding that affordable, accessible, available, high 584 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 4: quality childcare is absolutely essential to having a functioning economy, 585 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 4: because during those early months of COVID, when so many 586 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 4: schools and daycares were closed, we really saw that it 587 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 4: just our economy doesn't function without it. And yet what 588 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 4: has happened is very quickly a bunch of proposals from 589 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 4: the Biden administration were scrapped. It seems like we've gone 590 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 4: back to a mode where parents just have to figure 591 00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 4: it out for themselves. So where we are at now 592 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 4: is basically what in an emerging market is sometimes called 593 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,719 Speaker 4: an institutional void. If you are doing business day in India, 594 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 4: which does not have the robust sort of legal business 595 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 4: contract system that we have in America, you have to 596 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 4: find ways to work around that institutional void. And I 597 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 4: think in the US what we are working around is 598 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 4: a really appalling lack of childcare or childcare that's so 599 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 4: expensive that it's just out of reach for many, many 600 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 4: working families. 601 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: Do you have a solution in mind. Is there a good, 602 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: strong role for the government here to play in terms 603 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,239 Speaker 1: of subsidizing affordable childcare. Is there a role here for 604 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 1: the states to play in bringing more childcare centers online 605 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: by reducing some of the ridiculous restrictions that prevent people 606 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: from becoming childcare providers, things like licensing, we're doing it 607 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: in your home. Do you have a little menu of 608 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: must dos to make childcare reality? 609 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 4: I mean, I think what's exciting here is that the 610 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 4: situation is so bad that so many of these solutions 611 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 4: could work and could make things slightly better. I do 612 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 4: think there's a role for the government to play in 613 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 4: terms of some kind of subsidy. I think if the 614 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 4: private market, the free market, we're going to solve this problem, 615 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 4: it would have been solved already because the need is 616 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 4: there and because parents are paying handover fift I mean, 617 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 4: in many, many states, the cost of daycare is higher 618 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 4: than the cost of public college tuition, and public college 619 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 4: tuition is something you have eighteen years to save for. 620 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,239 Speaker 4: If you're a parent and daycare is not something that 621 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 4: you have almost two decades to set aside money for. 622 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 4: So I definitely think there's a role for government subsidies. 623 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 4: I think that there is a role to look at 624 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 4: in terms of licensing and providers. At the same time, 625 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 4: it's really important that care be high quality, and even 626 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 4: now with the restrictions we have in place, you will 627 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 4: hear stories of a baby left out in a hallway 628 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 4: or something, and that's just not acceptable. I think one 629 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 4: area where we could actually see a lot more is 630 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 4: from private companies. I don't love that the solution so 631 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 4: often in America is like, oh, well, companies will offer 632 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 4: health insurance, companies will offer four h one K plans. 633 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 4: But this is how we do things in the US, 634 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 4: and I think that private companies. Only six percent of 635 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 4: private companies currently offer some form of on site or 636 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 4: near site childcare at their offices. If employers are serious 637 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 4: about having workers come back to the office, give them 638 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 4: a solid reason to be there, you know, provide either 639 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 4: subsidized or free a place to put their kids. 640 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 3: And there are. 641 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 4: Corporate partners who will work with organizations to set those 642 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 4: up so that you're not actually having to employ the 643 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 4: daycare workers yourself. 644 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 1: That dovetails nicely into a discussion about benefits in the 645 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: workplace and also bring us back to Andy Owens and 646 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: the heart of her viral video. Andy Owens is handsomely compensated. 647 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,239 Speaker 1: She made many millions of dollars last year in her 648 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: role as the CEO of Miller Nole, and of course, 649 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: during that video, she dumped on the idea of bonuses 650 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: as being something her employee should aspire to during her 651 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: conference call. So let's talk a little bit about pay. 652 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: You've written that bosses are overlooking other forms of compensation 653 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 1: like benefits in circumstances in which they say they aren't 654 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,239 Speaker 1: in a position to offer better pay, and childcare is 655 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 1: obviously one of the grand kind of benefits you can get. 656 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 1: But talk a little bit about that idea that managers 657 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 1: in this difficult era aren't thinking about all their options 658 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 1: if they want to motivate employees, and options that are 659 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 1: better than saying don't go to pity city. 660 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 3: Right. 661 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 4: It strikes me as odd in some ways that so 662 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 4: many managers are sort of trying to cut back an 663 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 4: employee flexibility because in survey after survey, flexibility and autonomy 664 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 4: over when and where to work is one of the 665 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 4: top benefits employees want, and it really doesn't cost anything 666 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 4: to offer it. So that's one that you would think, 667 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 4: if you know there's a sort of cash crunched company, 668 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 4: they could offer that and that would be something that 669 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 4: it would be highly valued and it wouldn't show up 670 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 4: as a cost in the balance sheet. Other reasons I 671 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 4: think benefits could be helpful to companies right now is 672 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 4: you know, they're tax differently. They don't go on a 673 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 4: corporate balance sheet the same way that salaries do. 674 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 2: You know. 675 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,919 Speaker 4: I had a funny and very enlightening conversation with Peter 676 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,760 Speaker 4: Capelli at the Wharton School about some of this stuff, 677 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 4: and he thinks the whole way we do accounting on 678 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 4: employee salaries is really messed up. He's like, we consider 679 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,359 Speaker 4: it a cost, but isn't it really an investment? Like 680 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,720 Speaker 4: you are investing in these people and they are doing 681 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 4: work for your company and producing this stuff you're selling, 682 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 4: Like why do we consider that a cost? 683 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:22,839 Speaker 3: So I think that. 684 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 4: There's a lot of sort of rethinking here that needs 685 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,319 Speaker 4: to happen, And in some ways I'd love to see 686 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 4: a rethink of even the way we think about bonuses 687 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 4: you know, you mentioned Andy Owen and her sort of 688 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 4: encouraging people to not. 689 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 3: Worry about their bonuses. 690 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 4: But you know, we use this word bonus and we 691 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 4: think it's like a winefall, like, oh, it's so unexpected, 692 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 4: I got a bonus. But in most employee compensation schemes, 693 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 4: it's just the name that we give to this annual 694 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 4: lump sum payment that has a clear target goal and 695 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 4: so hopefully it's not coming as a total surprise. So 696 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 4: I think that in some ways our conversations around a 697 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 4: bonus as a kind of extra are a little bit 698 00:35:58,640 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 4: out of date. 699 00:35:59,200 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 3: Really. 700 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 4: Today, many companies, a bonus is a very clear lump 701 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 4: sum payment that employees. 702 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,360 Speaker 3: Expect to get and that CEOs expect to get too. 703 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,879 Speaker 4: Their bonuses are often much much bigger as a portion 704 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 4: of their compensation, and part two incentivize their performance. 705 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: I just want to highlight the very smart, helpful thing 706 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:20,279 Speaker 1: you just said is do we think of compensation as 707 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: a cost or do we think about it as an investment? 708 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,319 Speaker 1: And I think that's a very useful dividing line. If 709 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 1: you talk to managers and their relationship with the people 710 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 1: who work for them, do they think that what they're 711 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: providing to those workers is a cost for an investment, 712 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: and I would suspect that what I would describe as 713 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 1: enlightened managers and our critics would call woke, is it's 714 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 1: enlightened to think about people as an investment as opposed 715 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: to just a cost, and that there are all sorts 716 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 1: of benefits you get out of that. To put politics 717 00:36:55,440 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 1: aside from a pure management and bottom line perspective. 718 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think one benefit of paying people a 719 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 4: salary that's generous is they can stop doing things like moonlighting. 720 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 4: You know, a lot of companies today really want their 721 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 4: employees to be fully committed to them, and if you're 722 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 4: moonlighting or freelancing on the side, that's kind of seen 723 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 4: as almost like cheating on, cheating on the company. But 724 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 4: employees do that because they feel like they need to 725 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,839 Speaker 4: make more money. And so a company that can pay 726 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,359 Speaker 4: enough that people can just have their free time, you know, 727 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 4: they don't need to have a side hustle. And I 728 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:32,839 Speaker 4: think that goes back to the company because then they 729 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 4: can also be available if there is some kind of 730 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 4: emergency or late night assignment. They're not out driving for 731 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 4: uber when that email comes in. So I think it 732 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,279 Speaker 4: actually there's many benefits to employes and companies to just 733 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:44,399 Speaker 4: paying a little more too. 734 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,360 Speaker 1: So hybrid work in the workplaces and the centerpiece of 735 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,799 Speaker 1: art talk today. So let's do some summing up here 736 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,800 Speaker 1: about hybrid work, which I'll add again, white collar workers 737 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: get the luxury of considering what that means in a 738 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 1: way that blue collar workers off and don't have because 739 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 1: they have far fewer options. Having said that, at the 740 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 1: end of last year, you looked back in one column 741 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 1: at what we learned about hybrid work in twenty twenty two. 742 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 1: Tell me what did we learn? 743 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:15,839 Speaker 4: Well, I think we learned some of the things that 744 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 4: we've touched on today that offices have to provide some 745 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 4: clear benefit otherwise people won't show up to use them. 746 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 4: You know, one thing that's become really clear to me 747 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 4: is that long commutes are the main obstacle keeping at 748 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,280 Speaker 4: least Americans from heading in and then that's a decision 749 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,840 Speaker 4: that governments and cities and states have made, is not 750 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,440 Speaker 4: to invest in better transit infrastructure. Changing that will not 751 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 4: be cheap or easy. I think one of my big 752 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 4: takeaways from the last couple of years of debate around 753 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 4: this is really that it's really hard for a company 754 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,680 Speaker 4: to enforce a one size fits all hybrid work or 755 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,320 Speaker 4: FaceTime policy, because what we've seen over the past couple 756 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 4: of years is that hybrid work has been great for 757 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:57,839 Speaker 4: some groups of people, and were fully remote work has 758 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 4: been really great for groups of people. You know, kers 759 00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,160 Speaker 4: with disabilities have re entered the workforce in huge numbers 760 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 4: because of remote work. Working parents have really benefited from 761 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:10,239 Speaker 4: the additional flexibility to work around the sort of vagaries 762 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,239 Speaker 4: of daycare and school drop off and pickup times. On 763 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,800 Speaker 4: the other hand, as you pointed out, younger workers, people 764 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,840 Speaker 4: whose jobs involve a lot of sort of FaceTime and communication, 765 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,600 Speaker 4: would just be better suited to be in the office. 766 00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:23,399 Speaker 4: I think that's especially true if you have a lot 767 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 4: of meetings. It's fun to have in person meetings and 768 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 4: talk to your colleagues in person. It is not that 769 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:31,920 Speaker 4: fun to sit on zoom all day. So I'm thinking 770 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 4: and hoping that as we kind of go forward, hybrid 771 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,920 Speaker 4: arrangements will be a little bit more of an arrangement 772 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 4: that teams or people can come up with on their own, 773 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,719 Speaker 4: rather than a company kind of worrying that people are 774 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 4: coming only in two days a week instead of three 775 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 4: days a week. And then I guess the other thing 776 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:48,960 Speaker 4: that I would just throw out there is that hybrid 777 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,920 Speaker 4: work and remote work really shift the energy and the 778 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,759 Speaker 4: culture of the office to slack an email. So I 779 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:56,719 Speaker 4: think all of us need to be much more intentional 780 00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,479 Speaker 4: about how we use those tools. I think some bad 781 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 4: habits were allowed to proliferate in the era before COVID 782 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 4: and then during COVID, and I think this is the 783 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,239 Speaker 4: perfect time to be a little bit more strategic in 784 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 4: how we use technology. 785 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 1: Sarah, because this is crash course, we don't let guests 786 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 1: escape the show without sharing little lessons that they've learned. 787 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 1: And I'm curious to know what you've learned about pity 788 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 1: city or anything else you didn't fully understand about workplace 789 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 1: dynamics in the pre pandemic era. 790 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:30,319 Speaker 4: I think what I am learning is that the motivational 791 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 4: model of the last fifteen years was really about a 792 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 4: specific time and place in economy and when companies were 793 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,319 Speaker 4: competing on talent and not on capital. Because interest rates 794 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 4: were really low for a really long time. When companies 795 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,160 Speaker 4: were competing on talent, they really believed in this sort 796 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 4: of company culture, hire great people and set them free 797 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 4: and have them deeply committed to the sort of idea. 798 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,280 Speaker 4: And I think what we're seeing now is what happens 799 00:40:56,280 --> 00:41:00,960 Speaker 4: when the economy slows down. When you have convinced employees 800 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,399 Speaker 4: to buy into an ownership culture and that they need 801 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,480 Speaker 4: to act like owners and entrepreneurs, they are gonna have 802 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,359 Speaker 4: some ideas on how the business should be run. They're 803 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 4: going to have ideas and what political causes you support. 804 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:13,280 Speaker 4: They are going to have ideas and what the remote 805 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 4: work policy should be. And so I think that this 806 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,440 Speaker 4: shift I'm seeing from sort of fed up executives who 807 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:21,279 Speaker 4: are sort of like, oh my god, stop complaining, get 808 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,040 Speaker 4: back to work. Don't be such a snowflake. It's a 809 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,200 Speaker 4: little bit like, but you spent fifteen years like telling 810 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:29,880 Speaker 4: us we should act like owners, Like that's what we're doing. 811 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 4: I think that's where a lot of this tension is 812 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:35,160 Speaker 4: coming from. And I do not know if the motivational 813 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,840 Speaker 4: model that I have seen for the last fifteen years 814 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,160 Speaker 4: will persevere, And in some ways it would be healthy 815 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,080 Speaker 4: if it didn't. Maybe a lot of us could use 816 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,400 Speaker 4: some more distance from our jobs and not identify so 817 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:46,640 Speaker 4: much with them and have so much of ourselves invested 818 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,920 Speaker 4: in them. But if employees pulled back from that, that's 819 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,719 Speaker 4: when you start to have executives worried about quiet quitting. Right. 820 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,640 Speaker 4: So I think that there's this sort of dance playing out. 821 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,320 Speaker 4: We kind of all want to have it all. Employees 822 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,760 Speaker 4: want to have high salaries and ownership and work life balance, 823 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:03,799 Speaker 4: and then I think in some ways managers want to 824 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,239 Speaker 4: have a docile, obedient workforce that they can underpay, but 825 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:08,800 Speaker 4: who also will work around the clock. 826 00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:09,799 Speaker 3: And like, we can't have. 827 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 1: All these really really innovative in our owners and do 828 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,880 Speaker 1: really great things. Yeah, exactly, which like what's not matching 829 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:17,520 Speaker 1: up right there in that little picture. 830 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:19,799 Speaker 4: Yeah, So that's what I'm kind of learning, and that's 831 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:21,319 Speaker 4: what I'm probably gonna be watching next. 832 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:25,040 Speaker 1: Sarah, we're out of time, but thank you for being 833 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:26,160 Speaker 1: such a wonderful guest. 834 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,920 Speaker 4: Thank you very much for having me Tim. 835 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 1: You can find Sarah Green Carmichael's columns on the Bloomberg 836 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,720 Speaker 1: Opinion website, and you can follow her on Twitter at 837 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,600 Speaker 1: s k Green. Here at crash Course, we believe the 838 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:45,239 Speaker 1: collisions can be messy, impressive, challenging, surprising, and always instructive. 839 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,040 Speaker 1: In today's crash Course, I learned that it really matters 840 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:54,080 Speaker 1: whether or not managers see employees as investments or costs, 841 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,320 Speaker 1: and they have to be very clearheaded about what that means, 842 00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 1: because the consequences are important in terms of eployee gratification, 843 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,600 Speaker 1: in terms of achieving company goals, and in terms of 844 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 1: a happier and more productive workplace. What did you learn? 845 00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:10,799 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. You can tweet at 846 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:14,719 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Opinion, handle at Opinion or me at Tim 847 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:19,040 Speaker 1: O'Brien using the hashtag Bloomberg Crash Course. You can also 848 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,160 Speaker 1: subscribe to our show wherever you're listening right now, and 849 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,799 Speaker 1: please leave us a review that helps more people find 850 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:29,239 Speaker 1: the show. This episode was produced by the indispensable Animasarakis, 851 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:34,200 Speaker 1: moses ONM and Me. Our supervising producer is Magnus Hendrickson, 852 00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,920 Speaker 1: and we had editing help from Katie Boyce, Jeff Grocott, 853 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:42,160 Speaker 1: Mike Nize and Christine Vanden Bilert. Blake Maple says. Our 854 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,759 Speaker 1: sound engineering and our original theme song was composed by 855 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,839 Speaker 1: Luis Gara. I'm Tim O'Brien. We'll be back next week 856 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:51,080 Speaker 1: with another Crash Course