WEBVTT - CZM Rewind: Wild Faith: A Conversation with Talia Lavin 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:05.000 Cool Zone Media. 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:07.280 Hello, and welcome back to it could happen here in 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:09.920 your daily dose of the horrors that are, in fact, 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:13.640 already happening all around us. I'm your occasional host, Molly Conger, 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:15.320 and I am delighted to be joined today by the 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:20.400 critically acclaimed author of Culture Warlords, journalist researcher, sword enthusiast, 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:24.759 Sandwich expert, and my friend Talia Lavin. Hello. 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:28.480 Yeah. I once introduced myself at an event as a 0:00:28.520 --> 0:00:33.000 Sandwich historian, which I think was the pinnacle of my 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:37.600 public speaking career. But this is a second pinnacle. Hey, Molly, 0:00:37.680 --> 0:00:38.200 what's up? 0:00:38.640 --> 0:00:40.480 Thank you so much for coming on today to talk 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:44.120 with me about your new book, Wild Faith is coming 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:47.080 out in just a few weeks October fifteenth, right. 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:50.920 Yeah, Wild Faith, How the Christian Right is taking over America. 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:53.880 Not the terrible B movie entitled Wild Faith. 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:58.200 Yeah, the SEO is scrambled on that one. But the book, however, 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:01.200 is very good. I mean, first of all, I just 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:03.640 want to say, like I've been reading the gally copy 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:05.559 that you sent me, which I honestly made me feel 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:08.320 very fancy. I've never received a galley copy of a 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:10.400 book that's not out yet before. So I felt, you know, 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:13.440 kind of a kind of a broadcasting professional with my 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:14.759 special book. 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:17.839 It's an exclusive club. You're one of like five people 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:18.560 thus read it. 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:20.880 Oh my god, that is that's very exclusive. 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:24.080 Yeah. Well it's aboud to become a lot less exclusive, 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:25.840 so feel special while you can, right. 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:27.960 But I realized while I was reading it, you know, 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:30.600 I have my little sticky tabs because I'm reading a 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:34.160 lot more books lately, regrettably not not not a big 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:37.320 time book guy. It's always reading. I read a lot 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:38.840 of court documents, but I'm reading a lot of books 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:40.760 right now for research for my show, and it's like 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:43.280 my little sticky tabs. And as in reading it, I 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:47.040 realize I'm not marking passages that I think would be 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:50.040 useful for us to talk about in this interview. I'm 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:52.480 just putting my little tabs on passages that just like 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:54.640 punched me in the gut. 0:01:54.800 --> 0:02:00.040 You know, Ah, sorry for punching you. 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:01.800 No, but I mean, I mean with the way the 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:04.200 power of your words, because like a lot. 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:06.240 Of what I'm reading sucks. 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:10.560 It's just right, Like I spent all day yesterday reading 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:14.240 like twenty five year old Issues of Resistance, which was 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:19.480 the quarterly magazine for a white power music label. So this, 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:22.000 I mean it's a real departure, So you know, really 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:25.080 just reveling in the richness of the pros and the 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:27.400 fact that it, you know, didn't want to kill me. 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:33.520 Yeah. No, I also have experienced neo Nazi research fatigue, 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:37.400 and also just like the sort of relentless grimness of 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:41.800 flowing through these like fundamentally hostile texts, and also like 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:45.400 academic texts, which are difficult in their own way. I 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:50.040 try to write accessively or just like excitingly. I find 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:56.000 that a lot of especially nonfiction sort of journalism me books, 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:58.160 tend to be a little dry, and I'm like, let's 0:02:58.200 --> 0:03:02.160 not be dry. Let's be like spicy, and you know, 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:06.480 like form and function, Like you're more likely to be 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:09.840 moved by a message if you find the writing compelling. 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:11.840 You know, it's just you. 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:13.360 Have such a way with words. I mean, you know this, 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:15.800 You're a professional writer. I don't want to embarrass you 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:16.320 on the show. 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:22.160 So I'm twirling my air like, yes, but I do 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:23.080 write for a living. 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:25.480 If you'll indulge me, if it's legal, if the publisher 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:27.800 will allow this, I just want to read this passage 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:30.000 from the introduction that I think is a good jumping 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:31.399 off point, and it was one of the first things 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:34.079 I marked because I was just like, oh, hell yeah, 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:35.120 we're getting into this. 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:38.440 There's good words in here, okay. 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:42.160 The Christian Right is a force in American politics and 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:45.120 has been for decades, half a century to be precise, 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:48.400 during which it has steadily gained power. It started in 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:51.560 school rooms, continued in courtrooms, and perseveres with the aid 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:53.520 of people who are perfectly willing to call in bomb 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:57.600 threats to hospitals and attempt to overturn elections. It features 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:01.160 self proclaimed profits with a distinct interest in policy, newly 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:04.320 minted apostles with very definite ideas about spiritual battle and 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:07.400 its earthly components, and pastors eager to usher in the 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:10.880 end of the world. Its adherents have hymns and devotionals 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:13.760 and speaking tongues on occasion, and the showiest among them 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:16.479 are known to march their cities, blowing rams horns in 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:19.440 an effort to topple, as Joshua once did, the wicked 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:22.520 cities of the world. They have their own insular world, 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:25.719 their own media apparatus. They have legislators who could fire 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:28.680 in brimstone speeches from the badly carpeted rooms where laws 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:32.040 are made. They have lawyers too, and in case the 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:36.719 lawyers fail, there's always the promise of congregations that might 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:41.800 coalesce into mobs or arsonists. Who's burning holy zeal coalesces 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:47.160 into the tiny pinpoint of a Molotov cocktail. And I 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:51.680 knew from the intro that we were in for a ride. 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:55.559 Yeah, it's like cast of characters, the worst people ever, 0:04:55.720 --> 0:05:00.080 but like, let's write about it in an exciting way. 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:02.839 I think that one of the themes of the book 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:08.040 is really how these extra legal extremist movements like the 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:13.479 anti abortion terror movement, and the legal framework of a 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:17.960 movement work together. I actually initially heard about this from 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:20.560 a friend who was talking about how like during the 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:22.960 gay rights movement you had sort of the act up 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:26.240 builth demonstrations, the diants, and then you have the sort 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:30.400 of like more respectively coded like gay people who you know, 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:33.400 we're talking to the government and trying to get elected 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:35.800 and you know, really trying to influence research, and that 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:39.760 every movement needs sort of a radical outside and then 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:43.040 a respectable inside. And I'm like, oh, this works in 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:48.279 like the acratic movements too, where you have like this 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:52.080 you know, fringe that's burning down clinics, and then people 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:56.400 steadily working for fifty years to like ban abortion, and 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:59.479 they have the same DNA and they have the same goals. 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:02.880 They just go about it differently but complement each other. 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:05.880 And I think that's like a running theme in the book, 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:09.680 is that like you have lawyers and you have legislators, 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:12.840 and then you have mobs and they're sort of all 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:17.119 working towards the same goals. And that's really what we're seeing, 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:21.159 I think, on the Christian Right after decades of building power. 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:23.800 Yeah, one of the notes that I wrote down in 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:25.320 that vein while I was reading was that, you know, 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:28.440 the Christian Right drives its power across a spectrum, right 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:31.320 from the clinic bomber to the senator. But it's not 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:33.479 you know, you might say two sides of the same coin. 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:36.440 But to me it looks like this isn't two different 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:40.599 spheres of power too sort of separate but coexisting or 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:45.960 comorbid ideologies. They're just different numbers on the same dial, right, 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:47.479 it's turning up and turning down. 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:52.040 Yeah, it's like the hand that lights the torch and 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:55.120 the hand that puts it to the you know, pyre. 0:06:56.120 --> 0:07:00.720 They perform different functions, but they have really the same goals. 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:06.760 And if like me, you view stripping half the populace 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:12.240 of its bodily autonomy, imposing a theocracy, hounding queer people 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:19.040 out of public life, slash into death as fundamentally violent goals. Yeah, 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:23.240 I don't think there's like a respectable iteration necessarily, there's 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:27.520 just cosplaying respectability and right. 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:29.440 You can say it with a tie on on the 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:31.840 Senate floor, but it's it's the same message. 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:36.840 Yeah, And I think so much of our media apparatus 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:42.640 and governmental apparatus is really sort of views like again 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:45.320 this like form and function, right, Like if you are 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:49.080 if you say something politely, it doesn't really matter what 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:52.960 you're saying, like if you say something with a suit 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:55.760 on in the register of like, you know, in a 0:07:55.840 --> 0:08:00.640 calm sort of Mike Pencian, rush Limbaugh and decap As 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:02.920 he called himself a boy. She says, did he say that, Yeah, 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:04.360 that's what he called himself when he read it, did 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:08.360 a like evangelical radio show. Yeah, No, no matter what 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:10.080 you say, as long as you are like white and 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:14.760 you say it politely, like this is fundamentally sort of fine, 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:17.400 And then if you look at it from you know, 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:19.960 a step or two back, and you're like, no, actually, 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:23.720 no matter how politely say it, this is like a violent, 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:31.280 deeply unpopular theocratic agenda that like fundamentally is incompatible with 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:36.920 multiracial democracy. I also think, and I keep running into this, 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:39.680 like well meaning liberals being like, but isn't there a 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:41.920 separation of church and state? And I'm like, I don't know. 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:44.160 Do you fucking think there is? In Alabama? Do you 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:48.160 think there is an Arkansas? And all of these you 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:52.560 know in Texas, Like all of these figures are like 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:56.040 we're Christians. We're making laws for Jesus, and. 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:58.040 We have covenant marriages and we want you to too. 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:01.400 Yeah, like we're gonna outlawe because of God. And like, 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:05.640 you know, women dying of sepsis in hospital parking lots 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:09.040 is what Jesus wants. And like, and I experienced this, 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:12.320 I think you probably have to when you like report 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:18.560 on you know, zealots and extremists, and people inevitably wind 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:23.240 up like measuring other people's weep by their own bushel. 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:26.080 In other words, they're like they can't really believe this stuff, 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:29.520 and it's like, no, they really do, they can't really 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:30.360 have these goals. 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:33.120 First of all, they do, but also doesn't. 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:36.520 Matter, right, I mean the question of like impact versus intent. 0:09:36.800 --> 0:09:39.440 First of all, it's I think it's perfectly possible to 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:41.240 be both a grifter and a true believer at the 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:41.760 same time. 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:43.520 That's just synergy, baby. 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:49.360 Yeah. And also fundamentally, this is a world premise done grievance, 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:52.120 where it's this idea that like, the world has got 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:55.360 one over on you. And so in a sense, grift 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:58.280 is just like, well, you know, the world's corrupt and 0:09:58.760 --> 0:10:01.760 I'm fighting a righteous cause, so what does it matter 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:05.840 the ethics that I sort of skip on along the way. 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:08.520 I mean, once you've amped the stakes up to you're 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:11.760 fighting the literal devil and everyone who's getting in my 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:15.880 way is animated by actual demons from Hell. I mean, 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:18.160 the stakes couldn't be higher. So you do what you 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:18.880 have to do. 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:22.240 Exactly, and it's this theory of power. And so then 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:25.959 people sort of standing outside of that paradigm who are 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:28.400 not keyed into this idea of like we're in an 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:33.040 ethical spiritual battle and we must create like a Kingdom 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:36.720 of Christ on earth. In America to win against the devil, 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:40.160 and then people outside being like, you're hypocrites, and it's 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:43.120 like it's not a valid criticism to them because they're like, 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:45.960 first of all, you're not like a Christian if you're 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:49.040 a liberal, but also like you're not on our level, 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:53.760 Like we're fighting Lucifer and you're probably a stand like 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:56.760 on his team if you oppose us. So, you know, 0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:02.120 a multitude of apparent hypocrisies can be excused by the 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:04.719 idea that like this is a holy war and in 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:10.040 war there's like all kinds of avert behavior. 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:11.640 That's together doing holy war crimes. 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:15.120 Yeah, exactly. I mean this is why, for example, you 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:19.319 see a lot of like prominent female figures from Philish Lafley, 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:22.040 you know, in the seventies and eighties, to like the 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:24.800 trad wives now, and it's like, how does this fit 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:27.760 in with your overall sort of idea that women should 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:31.120 be chaste and submissive and meek and silent. I mean, 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:34.840 first of all, tradwife stuff is often fetish Spanish content. 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:38.599 But yeah, I mean Pilish Laughfly made a living professionally 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:42.560 saying that women shouldn't make a living professionally, but that 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:44.440 contradiction doesn't matter. 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:47.559 Yeah, I mean I think I call them valkyries for 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:51.319 feminine submission in the book. Yeah, I mean, at the 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:53.559 end of the day, like if you believe that this 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:57.600 is your your calling, your mission, you know, your mission 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:00.679 field in the service of the Lord to undo the 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:04.200 demonic sort of influence of feminism, Like of course you're 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:05.680 going to. 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:07.280 Speak, You've been moved by God to do so. 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:12.800 Yeah. And of course, like female leaders with the evangelical community, 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:16.719 like sort of minority Republicans can be like knocked off 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:20.199 their pedestal quicker and easier, but like they still can 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:24.000 come out and exist and testify. And Schlaughley throughout her 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:28.600 very long prolific and lucrative career, you know, was like 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:32.959 I'm a housewife with six kids, and that was her. 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:35.240 That was how she defined herself, even while being this 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:39.440 incredibly prominent figure and one of the sort of key 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:43.319 architects of the current Christian right coalition of like right 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:47.800 wing Catholics. She and Paul Weyrick and Leonard Leo and 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:52.080 some other right wing Catholics brought these Catholic values of 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:56.680 being all about abortion to the evangelical right, which prior 0:12:56.720 --> 0:12:58.840 to the seventies is like, that's a weird Catholic thing. 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:00.679 You don't really I. 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:01.560 Wanted to talk about that. 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:05.040 So I'm not sure how sort of common knowledge this is, 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:10.320 but the Protestant Christian community in the United States did 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:12.880 not care about abortion until the seventies. It was not 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:15.559 an issue in their communities. They were generally pro abortion. 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:18.600 They were you know, the Baptists were in favor of 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:19.440 Roe v. Wade. 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:23.040 Yeah, the fucking Southern Baptist Convention came out in like 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:25.640 seventy four, I think it was, and was like, yeah, 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:27.320 we approve of Rob Wade. 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:30.080 So it's not like, you know, opposition to abortion is 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:35.319 baked into Christianity. It is baked into the American Evangelical 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:39.400 Christianity of post nineteen seventy five or so because of 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:43.920 this sort of conscious cynical political decision. And that I 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:46.720 think is so interesting because you know, you get into 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:49.520 this conversation of well, what are their deeply held beliefs 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:51.760 and do they really believe it and does that matter? 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:55.680 But we can pin down the moment they started believing 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:58.520 this and we know why, and it's segregation. 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.120 Yeah. I mean, first of all, I would say, like 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:05.840 people can still like this is like several generations later 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:11.319 of like constant barrages of extremely violent propaganda against abortions. 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:14.320 So right, so the belief is sincere today, but you 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:16.160 could look at it where it was born. 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:19.600 Yeah, exactly, you should have been aborted, right, Yeah, no, 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:21.640 it definitely should not have been carried to term. But 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:26.400 like it's it's crazy. And in addition to Mooi's book, 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:29.920 Randall Baumer does some really good coverage of this. So 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:34.560 the sort of general arc is like three sort of 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:40.840 nineteen seventies, you had this like generally conservative population of 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:45.760 Southern Baptists who were like on board with McCarthyism, hated 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:48.560 the godless Reds, but kind of viewed politics as like 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:53.760 worldly and not really their sphere, and we're not particularly 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:57.880 politically engaged. And then brown versus a board of education 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:04.960 passes immediately, the white Christian populist just disinvests these from 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:08.520 the public schools, leaving multiple counties in the South without 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:15.320 functionally any public education at all. And this mushroom after rain, 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:20.480 kind of like patch of patches of parochial schools with 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:23.920 church or Christian in the name start popping up, and 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:28.120 they're all white schools. Their segregation academies is the sort 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:31.720 of term of art for these and they're explicitly under 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:36.360 a Christian agis they're religious schools. They're tax exempt as 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:40.800 a result. And then in like the late sixties and seventies, 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:45.720 the government was like, you can't be tax exempt and 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:50.880 like considered a charitable organization if you are segregated and 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:55.240 don't have any black students or minority students. And that 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:59.040 is what woke the sleeping dragon of the Christian right 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:02.240 really like, you know, get your filthy government hands off 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:06.240 our tax exemptions. Like they just went, you know nuts. 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:10.200 They were really mobilized, you know, like these are the 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:13.080 people who are like throwing tomatoes at Ruby Bridges, Like 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:16.720 you know, they're really politically motivated for the first time 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:22.760 because they're experiencing like a consequence for segregation. And so 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:28.400 this is when like Jerry Fowell and Ralph Reid and 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:32.640 you know, James Dobson start sort of coming forward and 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:36.000 being more prominent. And then by the sort of mid 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:40.440 seventies to eighties, you had these like savvy or political 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:46.280 operators coming out and saying, hey, guys, segregation now, segregation tomorrow, 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:49.680 segregation forever is like it's great that it really fired 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:54.120 y'all up, but it has sort of a limited appeal. 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:55.680 And they shot George Wallace. It's over. 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:58.320 Yeah, Like there's going to be a ceiling on that, 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:01.240 and a lot of people think you suck. So why 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:03.200 are you getting on the ground on this new civil 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:07.080 rights struggle abortion where you can fight for the unborn 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:10.879 who conveniently will never disagree with you. 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:13.639 Right, their voices don't have to be centered here. We 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:14.640 can speak for them. 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:19.120 I mean, they're the most convenient political constituency in history. 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:22.560 Right because they're so innocent and you can't milkshake duck 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:23.160 a fetus. 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:23.960 He's not even here. 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:27.160 Yeah, he can't talk, but he's not gonna say shit. 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:42.639 So I mean that's like the very capsule history. And 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:44.800 then of course it becomes this idea of like the 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:48.359 moral majority and where the guardians of America's soul and 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:52.200 we're gonna get really weird about sex. Also, it's just. 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:54.439 Like if you strip it all the way down to 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:57.600 the studs, Like the core of this is women are 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:00.719 bleeding to death in hospital parking lots because Gary Fowell 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:04.160 didn't want to pay his taxes or stop being racist. 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.639 Yeah, I mean that's not fair. 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:11.919 No, people sometimes like are a little skeptical when I'm like, 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:15.960 all of the hatreds are interconnected. But then you look 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:19.639 at like concrete historical examples of like this world historical 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:22.240 wave of misogyny. I mean, it's not that this population 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:26.480 wasn't like weird about sex or weird about women like 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:27.000 to start with. 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:29.040 I mean maybe they would have gotten here a different way, 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:30.639 but that's how we got here. 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:33.720 Yeah, we got here by just like no, we will 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:39.520 pay taxes on our segregation academies. Bob Jones University's inter 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:44.879 racial dating ban is perfectly great, and we're gonna mobilize 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:48.000 about it. And so what you have then now is 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:52.000 just like fifty years of political lock step because and 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:54.800 you see this in like other religious communities. I mean, 0:18:54.840 --> 0:18:57.520 like I know, like it's sort of notorious how much 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:00.159 corruption slides by in New York because like the that 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:04.719 a communities vote as a block, like it is very 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:08.479 useful to have a congregation that all votes the same way. 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:10.200 It's politically useful. 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:13.400 I mean, what other populations can you get together once 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:15.919 a week as a captive audience and speak to with 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:18.280 authority if you can mobilize those people. And that's what 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:20.880 Jerry Folwell saw, right, is like this is a great 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:23.520 way to get a lot of people to vote the 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:24.600 way I want them to vote. 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:28.119 Yeah, And you know, the church has always been like 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:32.480 a really prominent institution in American civil society, especially as 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:37.359 the rest of sort of civil society has fallen away 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:40.600 and degraded. Like churches are some of the only social 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:43.960 outlets that Americans have. And what's interesting when you talk 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:47.119 to evangelicals and next evangelicals is just like being a 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:50.040 Republican is like part of their religious identity in a 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:53.239 major way. It's like this is how you vote, and 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:56.359 this is you know, how you dress, and this is 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:59.399 how you go to church and so on. But like 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:01.920 the idea of being a Democrat is like not only 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:05.320 you know, a little bit out of step with your community, 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:06.159 it's heretical. 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:07.480 I mean, that's how the demons give in. 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:11.520 Yeah, yeah, demoncrats, I mean, and like, yeah, it's stupid, 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:14.480 But it's also like half of the people saying demoncrats 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:17.440 like literally mean democrats are aligned with Lucifer. 0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:19.840 And I think that's a point that I don't want 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:22.159 to get lost on the listener this you know, this 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:26.240 idea that people literally have demons in them, that demons 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:29.680 are active in the world, that demons are motivating the actions. 0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:32.000 Of their enemies. It is real for them. 0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:35.679 And I'm not saying that to be derisive or you know, 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:36.600 it's real. 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:37.200 It's real. 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:40.679 It is an animating factor for a lot of these people. 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:44.280 And that's hard to wrap your mind around. I mean, 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:47.680 I struggle with the idea that that is real for them. 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:49.960 But like that's how you get things like satanic panic, 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:52.119 and we see echoes of satanic panic in this idea 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:55.080 of you know, groomers in kids' schools. They really have 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:59.720 this fundamental, like foundational belief in this, you know, whether 0:20:59.800 --> 0:21:01.960 or not they're calling it demons, that the existence of 0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:05.920 some sort of ontological evil that is coming for their children. 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:08.280 And like once you arrive at the place where, like 0:21:08.480 --> 0:21:10.840 where you understand that that's real for them, their actions 0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:13.280 make more sense. Like they're not behaving irrationally if you 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:16.080 if you truly believe that these things were happening, you'd 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:16.920 act crazy too. 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:20.680 Yeah, I mean it's really hard to get people to 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:25.120 step outside their own worldviews and in both directions, right, Like, 0:21:25.720 --> 0:21:29.000 I don't believe that demons are, you know, abroad in 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:32.640 the world and motivating like every element of political action 0:21:32.920 --> 0:21:33.639 to someone who. 0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:36.000 You're starting to see them some places, but generally, I. 0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:40.919 Know, to someone who does my viewpoint is incomprehensible and 0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:44.040 vice versa. So I think part of I mean not 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:46.320 that I'm like one of those people that's like polarization 0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:49.359 is the big problem, like you know, as opposed to 0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:53.480 anything with like concrete policy, like you know where it's 0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:55.160 like the big problem is we all don't like each 0:21:55.200 --> 0:21:57.040 other enough, and I'm like, no, the big problem is 0:21:57.080 --> 0:22:00.879 like people are espousing policies that will cause deaths, and 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:03.960 like also that people like believe their political enemies are 0:22:03.960 --> 0:22:06.280 like literally agents of Satan. I would say, is like 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:10.480 a bigger problem than polarization in the abstract. But yeah, 0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:13.240 I mean this this doctrine of sort of spiritual warfare, 0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:15.840 which if you like google it, it's just like, oh, 0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:18.360 this is the mindset and it's like you, the listener 0:22:18.440 --> 0:22:21.280