1
00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:05,000
Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

2
00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,280
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome back to it could happen here in

3
00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:09,920
Speaker 2: your daily dose of the horrors that are, in fact,

4
00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,640
Speaker 2: already happening all around us. I'm your occasional host, Molly Conger,

5
00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:15,320
Speaker 2: and I am delighted to be joined today by the

6
00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:20,400
Speaker 2: critically acclaimed author of Culture Warlords, journalist researcher, sword enthusiast,

7
00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:24,759
Speaker 2: Sandwich expert, and my friend Talia Lavin. Hello.

8
00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,480
Speaker 3: Yeah. I once introduced myself at an event as a

9
00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:33,000
Speaker 3: Sandwich historian, which I think was the pinnacle of my

10
00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:37,600
Speaker 3: public speaking career. But this is a second pinnacle. Hey, Molly,

11
00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:38,200
Speaker 3: what's up?

12
00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:40,480
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming on today to talk

13
00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:44,120
Speaker 2: with me about your new book, Wild Faith is coming

14
00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,080
Speaker 2: out in just a few weeks October fifteenth, right.

15
00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, Wild Faith, How the Christian Right is taking over America.

16
00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:53,880
Speaker 3: Not the terrible B movie entitled Wild Faith.

17
00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:58,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, the SEO is scrambled on that one. But the book, however,

18
00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,200
Speaker 2: is very good. I mean, first of all, I just

19
00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:03,640
Speaker 2: want to say, like I've been reading the gally copy

20
00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:05,559
Speaker 2: that you sent me, which I honestly made me feel

21
00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,320
Speaker 2: very fancy. I've never received a galley copy of a

22
00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:10,400
Speaker 2: book that's not out yet before. So I felt, you know,

23
00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:13,440
Speaker 2: kind of a kind of a broadcasting professional with my

24
00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:14,759
Speaker 2: special book.

25
00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,839
Speaker 3: It's an exclusive club. You're one of like five people

26
00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:18,560
Speaker 3: thus read it.

27
00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:20,880
Speaker 4: Oh my god, that is that's very exclusive.

28
00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,080
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well it's aboud to become a lot less exclusive,

29
00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:25,840
Speaker 3: so feel special while you can, right.

30
00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:27,960
Speaker 2: But I realized while I was reading it, you know,

31
00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,600
Speaker 2: I have my little sticky tabs because I'm reading a

32
00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,160
Speaker 2: lot more books lately, regrettably not not not a big

33
00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,320
Speaker 2: time book guy. It's always reading. I read a lot

34
00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:38,840
Speaker 2: of court documents, but I'm reading a lot of books

35
00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:40,760
Speaker 2: right now for research for my show, and it's like

36
00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,280
Speaker 2: my little sticky tabs. And as in reading it, I

37
00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:47,040
Speaker 2: realize I'm not marking passages that I think would be

38
00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,040
Speaker 2: useful for us to talk about in this interview. I'm

39
00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:52,480
Speaker 2: just putting my little tabs on passages that just like

40
00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:54,640
Speaker 2: punched me in the gut.

41
00:01:54,800 --> 00:02:00,040
Speaker 3: You know, Ah, sorry for punching you.

42
00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:01,800
Speaker 2: No, but I mean, I mean with the way the

43
00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,200
Speaker 2: power of your words, because like a lot.

44
00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,240
Speaker 4: Of what I'm reading sucks.

45
00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:10,560
Speaker 2: It's just right, Like I spent all day yesterday reading

46
00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,240
Speaker 2: like twenty five year old Issues of Resistance, which was

47
00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:19,480
Speaker 2: the quarterly magazine for a white power music label. So this,

48
00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,000
Speaker 2: I mean it's a real departure, So you know, really

49
00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,080
Speaker 2: just reveling in the richness of the pros and the

50
00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,400
Speaker 2: fact that it, you know, didn't want to kill me.

51
00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:33,520
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, I also have experienced neo Nazi research fatigue,

52
00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,400
Speaker 3: and also just like the sort of relentless grimness of

53
00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,800
Speaker 3: flowing through these like fundamentally hostile texts, and also like

54
00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:45,400
Speaker 3: academic texts, which are difficult in their own way. I

55
00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:50,040
Speaker 3: try to write accessively or just like excitingly. I find

56
00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:56,000
Speaker 3: that a lot of especially nonfiction sort of journalism me books,

57
00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:58,160
Speaker 3: tend to be a little dry, and I'm like, let's

58
00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:02,160
Speaker 3: not be dry. Let's be like spicy, and you know,

59
00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,480
Speaker 3: like form and function, Like you're more likely to be

60
00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,840
Speaker 3: moved by a message if you find the writing compelling.

61
00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:11,840
Speaker 3: You know, it's just you.

62
00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:13,360
Speaker 2: Have such a way with words. I mean, you know this,

63
00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:15,800
Speaker 2: You're a professional writer. I don't want to embarrass you

64
00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:16,320
Speaker 2: on the show.

65
00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:22,160
Speaker 3: So I'm twirling my air like, yes, but I do

66
00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:23,080
Speaker 3: write for a living.

67
00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:25,480
Speaker 2: If you'll indulge me, if it's legal, if the publisher

68
00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:27,800
Speaker 2: will allow this, I just want to read this passage

69
00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,000
Speaker 2: from the introduction that I think is a good jumping

70
00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:31,399
Speaker 2: off point, and it was one of the first things

71
00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,079
Speaker 2: I marked because I was just like, oh, hell yeah,

72
00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:35,120
Speaker 2: we're getting into this.

73
00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:38,440
Speaker 4: There's good words in here, okay.

74
00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,160
Speaker 2: The Christian Right is a force in American politics and

75
00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,120
Speaker 2: has been for decades, half a century to be precise,

76
00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,400
Speaker 2: during which it has steadily gained power. It started in

77
00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,560
Speaker 2: school rooms, continued in courtrooms, and perseveres with the aid

78
00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:53,520
Speaker 2: of people who are perfectly willing to call in bomb

79
00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,600
Speaker 2: threats to hospitals and attempt to overturn elections. It features

80
00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:01,160
Speaker 2: self proclaimed profits with a distinct interest in policy, newly

81
00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,320
Speaker 2: minted apostles with very definite ideas about spiritual battle and

82
00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,400
Speaker 2: its earthly components, and pastors eager to usher in the

83
00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,880
Speaker 2: end of the world. Its adherents have hymns and devotionals

84
00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:13,760
Speaker 2: and speaking tongues on occasion, and the showiest among them

85
00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,479
Speaker 2: are known to march their cities, blowing rams horns in

86
00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,440
Speaker 2: an effort to topple, as Joshua once did, the wicked

87
00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,520
Speaker 2: cities of the world. They have their own insular world,

88
00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,719
Speaker 2: their own media apparatus. They have legislators who could fire

89
00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:28,680
Speaker 2: in brimstone speeches from the badly carpeted rooms where laws

90
00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,040
Speaker 2: are made. They have lawyers too, and in case the

91
00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:36,719
Speaker 2: lawyers fail, there's always the promise of congregations that might

92
00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:41,800
Speaker 2: coalesce into mobs or arsonists. Who's burning holy zeal coalesces

93
00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:47,160
Speaker 2: into the tiny pinpoint of a Molotov cocktail. And I

94
00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:51,680
Speaker 2: knew from the intro that we were in for a ride.

95
00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like cast of characters, the worst people ever,

96
00:04:55,720 --> 00:05:00,080
Speaker 3: but like, let's write about it in an exciting way.

97
00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:02,839
Speaker 3: I think that one of the themes of the book

98
00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:08,040
Speaker 3: is really how these extra legal extremist movements like the

99
00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:13,479
Speaker 3: anti abortion terror movement, and the legal framework of a

100
00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,960
Speaker 3: movement work together. I actually initially heard about this from

101
00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,560
Speaker 3: a friend who was talking about how like during the

102
00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:22,960
Speaker 3: gay rights movement you had sort of the act up

103
00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,240
Speaker 3: builth demonstrations, the diants, and then you have the sort

104
00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:30,400
Speaker 3: of like more respectively coded like gay people who you know,

105
00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,400
Speaker 3: we're talking to the government and trying to get elected

106
00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:35,800
Speaker 3: and you know, really trying to influence research, and that

107
00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:39,760
Speaker 3: every movement needs sort of a radical outside and then

108
00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,040
Speaker 3: a respectable inside. And I'm like, oh, this works in

109
00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:48,279
Speaker 3: like the acratic movements too, where you have like this

110
00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:52,080
Speaker 3: you know, fringe that's burning down clinics, and then people

111
00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:56,400
Speaker 3: steadily working for fifty years to like ban abortion, and

112
00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,479
Speaker 3: they have the same DNA and they have the same goals.

113
00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,880
Speaker 3: They just go about it differently but complement each other.

114
00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:05,880
Speaker 3: And I think that's like a running theme in the book,

115
00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,680
Speaker 3: is that like you have lawyers and you have legislators,

116
00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,840
Speaker 3: and then you have mobs and they're sort of all

117
00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:17,119
Speaker 3: working towards the same goals. And that's really what we're seeing,

118
00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:21,159
Speaker 3: I think, on the Christian Right after decades of building power.

119
00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:23,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the notes that I wrote down in

120
00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:25,320
Speaker 2: that vein while I was reading was that, you know,

121
00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,440
Speaker 2: the Christian Right drives its power across a spectrum, right

122
00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,320
Speaker 2: from the clinic bomber to the senator. But it's not

123
00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:33,479
Speaker 2: you know, you might say two sides of the same coin.

124
00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,440
Speaker 2: But to me it looks like this isn't two different

125
00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:40,599
Speaker 2: spheres of power too sort of separate but coexisting or

126
00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:45,960
Speaker 2: comorbid ideologies. They're just different numbers on the same dial, right,

127
00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:47,479
Speaker 2: it's turning up and turning down.

128
00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:52,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like the hand that lights the torch and

129
00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:55,120
Speaker 3: the hand that puts it to the you know, pyre.

130
00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:00,720
Speaker 3: They perform different functions, but they have really the same goals.

131
00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:06,760
Speaker 3: And if like me, you view stripping half the populace

132
00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:12,240
Speaker 3: of its bodily autonomy, imposing a theocracy, hounding queer people

133
00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:19,040
Speaker 3: out of public life, slash into death as fundamentally violent goals. Yeah,

134
00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:23,240
Speaker 3: I don't think there's like a respectable iteration necessarily, there's

135
00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:27,520
Speaker 3: just cosplaying respectability and right.

136
00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:29,440
Speaker 2: You can say it with a tie on on the

137
00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:31,840
Speaker 2: Senate floor, but it's it's the same message.

138
00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:36,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think so much of our media apparatus

139
00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:42,640
Speaker 3: and governmental apparatus is really sort of views like again

140
00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:45,320
Speaker 3: this like form and function, right, Like if you are

141
00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:49,080
Speaker 3: if you say something politely, it doesn't really matter what

142
00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,960
Speaker 3: you're saying, like if you say something with a suit

143
00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:55,760
Speaker 3: on in the register of like, you know, in a

144
00:07:55,840 --> 00:08:00,640
Speaker 3: calm sort of Mike Pencian, rush Limbaugh and decap As

145
00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:02,920
Speaker 3: he called himself a boy. She says, did he say that, Yeah,

146
00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:04,360
Speaker 3: that's what he called himself when he read it, did

147
00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:08,360
Speaker 3: a like evangelical radio show. Yeah, No, no matter what

148
00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:10,080
Speaker 3: you say, as long as you are like white and

149
00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:14,760
Speaker 3: you say it politely, like this is fundamentally sort of fine,

150
00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:17,400
Speaker 3: And then if you look at it from you know,

151
00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:19,960
Speaker 3: a step or two back, and you're like, no, actually,

152
00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,720
Speaker 3: no matter how politely say it, this is like a violent,

153
00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:31,280
Speaker 3: deeply unpopular theocratic agenda that like fundamentally is incompatible with

154
00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:36,920
Speaker 3: multiracial democracy. I also think, and I keep running into this,

155
00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:39,680
Speaker 3: like well meaning liberals being like, but isn't there a

156
00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:41,920
Speaker 3: separation of church and state? And I'm like, I don't know.

157
00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,160
Speaker 3: Do you fucking think there is? In Alabama? Do you

158
00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:48,160
Speaker 3: think there is an Arkansas? And all of these you

159
00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:52,560
Speaker 3: know in Texas, Like all of these figures are like

160
00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,040
Speaker 3: we're Christians. We're making laws for Jesus, and.

161
00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,040
Speaker 4: We have covenant marriages and we want you to too.

162
00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, like we're gonna outlawe because of God. And like,

163
00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,640
Speaker 3: you know, women dying of sepsis in hospital parking lots

164
00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:09,040
Speaker 3: is what Jesus wants. And like, and I experienced this,

165
00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:12,320
Speaker 3: I think you probably have to when you like report

166
00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:18,560
Speaker 3: on you know, zealots and extremists, and people inevitably wind

167
00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:23,240
Speaker 3: up like measuring other people's weep by their own bushel.

168
00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,080
Speaker 3: In other words, they're like they can't really believe this stuff,

169
00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,520
Speaker 3: and it's like, no, they really do, they can't really

170
00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:30,360
Speaker 3: have these goals.

171
00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,120
Speaker 4: First of all, they do, but also doesn't.

172
00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,520
Speaker 3: Matter, right, I mean the question of like impact versus intent.

173
00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,440
Speaker 3: First of all, it's I think it's perfectly possible to

174
00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:41,240
Speaker 3: be both a grifter and a true believer at the

175
00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:41,760
Speaker 3: same time.

176
00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:43,520
Speaker 4: That's just synergy, baby.

177
00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:49,360
Speaker 3: Yeah. And also fundamentally, this is a world premise done grievance,

178
00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,120
Speaker 3: where it's this idea that like, the world has got

179
00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,360
Speaker 3: one over on you. And so in a sense, grift

180
00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,280
Speaker 3: is just like, well, you know, the world's corrupt and

181
00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,760
Speaker 3: I'm fighting a righteous cause, so what does it matter

182
00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,840
Speaker 3: the ethics that I sort of skip on along the way.

183
00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:08,520
Speaker 2: I mean, once you've amped the stakes up to you're

184
00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,760
Speaker 2: fighting the literal devil and everyone who's getting in my

185
00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:15,880
Speaker 2: way is animated by actual demons from Hell. I mean,

186
00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,160
Speaker 2: the stakes couldn't be higher. So you do what you

187
00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:18,880
Speaker 2: have to do.

188
00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,240
Speaker 3: Exactly, and it's this theory of power. And so then

189
00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,959
Speaker 3: people sort of standing outside of that paradigm who are

190
00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,400
Speaker 3: not keyed into this idea of like we're in an

191
00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:33,040
Speaker 3: ethical spiritual battle and we must create like a Kingdom

192
00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,720
Speaker 3: of Christ on earth. In America to win against the devil,

193
00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,160
Speaker 3: and then people outside being like, you're hypocrites, and it's

194
00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,120
Speaker 3: like it's not a valid criticism to them because they're like,

195
00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,960
Speaker 3: first of all, you're not like a Christian if you're

196
00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,040
Speaker 3: a liberal, but also like you're not on our level,

197
00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:53,760
Speaker 3: Like we're fighting Lucifer and you're probably a stand like

198
00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,760
Speaker 3: on his team if you oppose us. So, you know,

199
00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:02,120
Speaker 3: a multitude of apparent hypocrisies can be excused by the

200
00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,719
Speaker 3: idea that like this is a holy war and in

201
00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:10,040
Speaker 3: war there's like all kinds of avert behavior.

202
00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:11,640
Speaker 4: That's together doing holy war crimes.

203
00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. I mean this is why, for example, you

204
00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:19,319
Speaker 3: see a lot of like prominent female figures from Philish Lafley,

205
00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,040
Speaker 3: you know, in the seventies and eighties, to like the

206
00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:24,800
Speaker 3: trad wives now, and it's like, how does this fit

207
00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,760
Speaker 3: in with your overall sort of idea that women should

208
00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,120
Speaker 3: be chaste and submissive and meek and silent. I mean,

209
00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,840
Speaker 3: first of all, tradwife stuff is often fetish Spanish content.

210
00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:38,599
Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean Pilish Laughfly made a living professionally

211
00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:42,560
Speaker 2: saying that women shouldn't make a living professionally, but that

212
00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:44,440
Speaker 2: contradiction doesn't matter.

213
00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think I call them valkyries for

214
00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:51,319
Speaker 3: feminine submission in the book. Yeah, I mean, at the

215
00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:53,559
Speaker 3: end of the day, like if you believe that this

216
00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:57,600
Speaker 3: is your your calling, your mission, you know, your mission

217
00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,679
Speaker 3: field in the service of the Lord to undo the

218
00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:04,200
Speaker 3: demonic sort of influence of feminism, Like of course you're

219
00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:05,680
Speaker 3: going to.

220
00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:07,280
Speaker 4: Speak, You've been moved by God to do so.

221
00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:12,800
Speaker 3: Yeah. And of course, like female leaders with the evangelical community,

222
00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,719
Speaker 3: like sort of minority Republicans can be like knocked off

223
00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:20,199
Speaker 3: their pedestal quicker and easier, but like they still can

224
00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,000
Speaker 3: come out and exist and testify. And Schlaughley throughout her

225
00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,600
Speaker 3: very long prolific and lucrative career, you know, was like

226
00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,959
Speaker 3: I'm a housewife with six kids, and that was her.

227
00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,240
Speaker 3: That was how she defined herself, even while being this

228
00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:39,440
Speaker 3: incredibly prominent figure and one of the sort of key

229
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,319
Speaker 3: architects of the current Christian right coalition of like right

230
00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:47,800
Speaker 3: wing Catholics. She and Paul Weyrick and Leonard Leo and

231
00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:52,080
Speaker 3: some other right wing Catholics brought these Catholic values of

232
00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:56,680
Speaker 3: being all about abortion to the evangelical right, which prior

233
00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:58,840
Speaker 3: to the seventies is like, that's a weird Catholic thing.

234
00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:00,679
Speaker 3: You don't really I.

235
00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:01,560
Speaker 4: Wanted to talk about that.

236
00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:05,040
Speaker 2: So I'm not sure how sort of common knowledge this is,

237
00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:10,320
Speaker 2: but the Protestant Christian community in the United States did

238
00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,880
Speaker 2: not care about abortion until the seventies. It was not

239
00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,559
Speaker 2: an issue in their communities. They were generally pro abortion.

240
00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,600
Speaker 2: They were you know, the Baptists were in favor of

241
00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:19,440
Speaker 2: Roe v. Wade.

242
00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, the fucking Southern Baptist Convention came out in like

243
00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:25,640
Speaker 3: seventy four, I think it was, and was like, yeah,

244
00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:27,320
Speaker 3: we approve of Rob Wade.

245
00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,080
Speaker 2: So it's not like, you know, opposition to abortion is

246
00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:35,319
Speaker 2: baked into Christianity. It is baked into the American Evangelical

247
00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,400
Speaker 2: Christianity of post nineteen seventy five or so because of

248
00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:43,920
Speaker 2: this sort of conscious cynical political decision. And that I

249
00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,720
Speaker 2: think is so interesting because you know, you get into

250
00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,520
Speaker 2: this conversation of well, what are their deeply held beliefs

251
00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:51,760
Speaker 2: and do they really believe it and does that matter?

252
00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,680
Speaker 2: But we can pin down the moment they started believing

253
00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,520
Speaker 2: this and we know why, and it's segregation.

254
00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,120
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, first of all, I would say, like

255
00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,840
Speaker 3: people can still like this is like several generations later

256
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:11,319
Speaker 3: of like constant barrages of extremely violent propaganda against abortions.

257
00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,320
Speaker 2: So right, so the belief is sincere today, but you

258
00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:16,160
Speaker 2: could look at it where it was born.

259
00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, you should have been aborted, right, Yeah, no,

260
00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:21,640
Speaker 3: it definitely should not have been carried to term. But

261
00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:26,400
Speaker 3: like it's it's crazy. And in addition to Mooi's book,

262
00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,920
Speaker 3: Randall Baumer does some really good coverage of this. So

263
00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:34,560
Speaker 3: the sort of general arc is like three sort of

264
00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:40,840
Speaker 3: nineteen seventies, you had this like generally conservative population of

265
00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:45,760
Speaker 3: Southern Baptists who were like on board with McCarthyism, hated

266
00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,560
Speaker 3: the godless Reds, but kind of viewed politics as like

267
00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:53,760
Speaker 3: worldly and not really their sphere, and we're not particularly

268
00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,880
Speaker 3: politically engaged. And then brown versus a board of education

269
00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:04,960
Speaker 3: passes immediately, the white Christian populist just disinvests these from

270
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,520
Speaker 3: the public schools, leaving multiple counties in the South without

271
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:15,320
Speaker 3: functionally any public education at all. And this mushroom after rain,

272
00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:20,480
Speaker 3: kind of like patch of patches of parochial schools with

273
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,920
Speaker 3: church or Christian in the name start popping up, and

274
00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:28,120
Speaker 3: they're all white schools. Their segregation academies is the sort

275
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,720
Speaker 3: of term of art for these and they're explicitly under

276
00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:36,360
Speaker 3: a Christian agis they're religious schools. They're tax exempt as

277
00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:40,800
Speaker 3: a result. And then in like the late sixties and seventies,

278
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,720
Speaker 3: the government was like, you can't be tax exempt and

279
00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:50,880
Speaker 3: like considered a charitable organization if you are segregated and

280
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:55,240
Speaker 3: don't have any black students or minority students. And that

281
00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:59,040
Speaker 3: is what woke the sleeping dragon of the Christian right

282
00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,240
Speaker 3: really like, you know, get your filthy government hands off

283
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:06,240
Speaker 3: our tax exemptions. Like they just went, you know nuts.

284
00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:10,200
Speaker 3: They were really mobilized, you know, like these are the

285
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,080
Speaker 3: people who are like throwing tomatoes at Ruby Bridges, Like

286
00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,720
Speaker 3: you know, they're really politically motivated for the first time

287
00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:22,760
Speaker 3: because they're experiencing like a consequence for segregation. And so

288
00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:28,400
Speaker 3: this is when like Jerry Fowell and Ralph Reid and

289
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,640
Speaker 3: you know, James Dobson start sort of coming forward and

290
00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:36,000
Speaker 3: being more prominent. And then by the sort of mid

291
00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:40,440
Speaker 3: seventies to eighties, you had these like savvy or political

292
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:46,280
Speaker 3: operators coming out and saying, hey, guys, segregation now, segregation tomorrow,

293
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,680
Speaker 3: segregation forever is like it's great that it really fired

294
00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:54,120
Speaker 3: y'all up, but it has sort of a limited appeal.

295
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:55,680
Speaker 4: And they shot George Wallace. It's over.

296
00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like there's going to be a ceiling on that,

297
00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,240
Speaker 3: and a lot of people think you suck. So why

298
00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:03,200
Speaker 3: are you getting on the ground on this new civil

299
00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:07,080
Speaker 3: rights struggle abortion where you can fight for the unborn

300
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,879
Speaker 3: who conveniently will never disagree with you.

301
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,639
Speaker 4: Right, their voices don't have to be centered here. We

302
00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:14,640
Speaker 4: can speak for them.

303
00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:19,120
Speaker 3: I mean, they're the most convenient political constituency in history.

304
00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,560
Speaker 2: Right because they're so innocent and you can't milkshake duck

305
00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:23,160
Speaker 2: a fetus.

306
00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:23,960
Speaker 4: He's not even here.

307
00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, he can't talk, but he's not gonna say shit.

308
00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,639
Speaker 3: So I mean that's like the very capsule history. And

309
00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:44,800
Speaker 3: then of course it becomes this idea of like the

310
00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:48,359
Speaker 3: moral majority and where the guardians of America's soul and

311
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,200
Speaker 3: we're gonna get really weird about sex. Also, it's just.

312
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,439
Speaker 2: Like if you strip it all the way down to

313
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,600
Speaker 2: the studs, Like the core of this is women are

314
00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,719
Speaker 2: bleeding to death in hospital parking lots because Gary Fowell

315
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,160
Speaker 2: didn't want to pay his taxes or stop being racist.

316
00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that's not fair.

317
00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,919
Speaker 3: No, people sometimes like are a little skeptical when I'm like,

318
00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:15,960
Speaker 3: all of the hatreds are interconnected. But then you look

319
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,639
Speaker 3: at like concrete historical examples of like this world historical

320
00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,240
Speaker 3: wave of misogyny. I mean, it's not that this population

321
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,480
Speaker 3: wasn't like weird about sex or weird about women like

322
00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:27,000
Speaker 3: to start with.

323
00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,040
Speaker 2: I mean maybe they would have gotten here a different way,

324
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:30,639
Speaker 2: but that's how we got here.

325
00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, we got here by just like no, we will

326
00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:39,520
Speaker 3: pay taxes on our segregation academies. Bob Jones University's inter

327
00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:44,879
Speaker 3: racial dating ban is perfectly great, and we're gonna mobilize

328
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,000
Speaker 3: about it. And so what you have then now is

329
00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:52,000
Speaker 3: just like fifty years of political lock step because and

330
00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:54,800
Speaker 3: you see this in like other religious communities. I mean,

331
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,520
Speaker 3: like I know, like it's sort of notorious how much

332
00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,159
Speaker 3: corruption slides by in New York because like the that

333
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:04,719
Speaker 3: a communities vote as a block, like it is very

334
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,479
Speaker 3: useful to have a congregation that all votes the same way.

335
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:10,200
Speaker 3: It's politically useful.

336
00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:13,400
Speaker 2: I mean, what other populations can you get together once

337
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:15,919
Speaker 2: a week as a captive audience and speak to with

338
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,280
Speaker 2: authority if you can mobilize those people. And that's what

339
00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:20,880
Speaker 2: Jerry Folwell saw, right, is like this is a great

340
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,520
Speaker 2: way to get a lot of people to vote the

341
00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:24,600
Speaker 2: way I want them to vote.

342
00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, the church has always been like

343
00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:32,480
Speaker 3: a really prominent institution in American civil society, especially as

344
00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:37,359
Speaker 3: the rest of sort of civil society has fallen away

345
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,600
Speaker 3: and degraded. Like churches are some of the only social

346
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,960
Speaker 3: outlets that Americans have. And what's interesting when you talk

347
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,119
Speaker 3: to evangelicals and next evangelicals is just like being a

348
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,040
Speaker 3: Republican is like part of their religious identity in a

349
00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,239
Speaker 3: major way. It's like this is how you vote, and

350
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:56,359
Speaker 3: this is you know, how you dress, and this is

351
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,399
Speaker 3: how you go to church and so on. But like

352
00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,920
Speaker 3: the idea of being a Democrat is like not only

353
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,320
Speaker 3: you know, a little bit out of step with your community,

354
00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:06,159
Speaker 3: it's heretical.

355
00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:07,480
Speaker 4: I mean, that's how the demons give in.

356
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, demoncrats, I mean, and like, yeah, it's stupid,

357
00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,480
Speaker 3: But it's also like half of the people saying demoncrats

358
00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,440
Speaker 3: like literally mean democrats are aligned with Lucifer.

359
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:19,840
Speaker 2: And I think that's a point that I don't want

360
00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:22,159
Speaker 2: to get lost on the listener this you know, this

361
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:26,240
Speaker 2: idea that people literally have demons in them, that demons

362
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,680
Speaker 2: are active in the world, that demons are motivating the actions.

363
00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,000
Speaker 4: Of their enemies. It is real for them.

364
00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,679
Speaker 2: And I'm not saying that to be derisive or you know,

365
00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:36,600
Speaker 2: it's real.

366
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:37,200
Speaker 4: It's real.

367
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,679
Speaker 2: It is an animating factor for a lot of these people.

368
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,280
Speaker 2: And that's hard to wrap your mind around. I mean,

369
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,680
Speaker 2: I struggle with the idea that that is real for them.

370
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:49,960
Speaker 2: But like that's how you get things like satanic panic,

371
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,119
Speaker 2: and we see echoes of satanic panic in this idea

372
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,080
Speaker 2: of you know, groomers in kids' schools. They really have

373
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:59,720
Speaker 2: this fundamental, like foundational belief in this, you know, whether

374
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:01,960
Speaker 2: or not they're calling it demons, that the existence of

375
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,920
Speaker 2: some sort of ontological evil that is coming for their children.

376
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:08,280
Speaker 2: And like once you arrive at the place where, like

377
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,840
Speaker 2: where you understand that that's real for them, their actions

378
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,280
Speaker 2: make more sense. Like they're not behaving irrationally if you

379
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,080
Speaker 2: if you truly believe that these things were happening, you'd

380
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:16,920
Speaker 2: act crazy too.

381
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's really hard to get people to

382
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:25,120
Speaker 3: step outside their own worldviews and in both directions, right, Like,

383
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,000
Speaker 3: I don't believe that demons are, you know, abroad in

384
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,640
Speaker 3: the world and motivating like every element of political action

385
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:33,639
Speaker 3: to someone who.

386
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,000
Speaker 4: You're starting to see them some places, but generally, I.

387
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:40,919
Speaker 3: Know, to someone who does my viewpoint is incomprehensible and

388
00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,040
Speaker 3: vice versa. So I think part of I mean not

389
00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:46,320
Speaker 3: that I'm like one of those people that's like polarization

390
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,359
Speaker 3: is the big problem, like you know, as opposed to

391
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,480
Speaker 3: anything with like concrete policy, like you know where it's

392
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,160
Speaker 3: like the big problem is we all don't like each

393
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,040
Speaker 3: other enough, and I'm like, no, the big problem is

394
00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,879
Speaker 3: like people are espousing policies that will cause deaths, and

395
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,960
Speaker 3: like also that people like believe their political enemies are

396
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 3: like literally agents of Satan. I would say, is like

397
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:10,480
Speaker 3: a bigger problem than polarization in the abstract. But yeah,

398
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 3: I mean this this doctrine of sort of spiritual warfare,

399
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,840
Speaker 3: which if you like google it, it's just like, oh,

400
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,360
Speaker 3: this is the mindset and it's like you, the listener

401
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,280
Speaker 3: to it could happen here, like you've been drafted into

402
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,040
Speaker 3: the spirit war from like birth.

403
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:25,879
Speaker 4: Congratulations private, and.

404
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,359
Speaker 3: You're probably in the side of the devil, so good job.

405
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know, like a lot of Americans

406
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,360
Speaker 3: believe in angels and demons, and that's fine, but it's

407
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 3: like when that starts impinging on the political sphere in

408
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,439
Speaker 3: a very serious way. It's like, how far would you

409
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:46,639
Speaker 3: go if you believed your opponent was under the thrall

410
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 3: of like Satan, you would go pretty damn far's.

411
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,920
Speaker 2: I mean, that's why you know clinic bombings were and

412
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:54,920
Speaker 2: I guess are on the rise again, right, Like these

413
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,719
Speaker 2: arsens of clinics. It's not like other kinds of crime

414
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 2: in my mind, right, It's not a crime of passion

415
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 2: or an interpersonal dispute. It is people who have been

416
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 2: motivated by this belief that this is a place where

417
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 2: a genocide is happening, that there's a holocaust going on

418
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,120
Speaker 2: in there, that people are ripping you know, actual living babies,

419
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 2: limb from limb, And if you really did believe that,

420
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 2: their actions make sense. And that's why it happens so often, right,

421
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,440
Speaker 2: because these people are motivated by this belief that God

422
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 2: commands them to take this action.

423
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there's your dual element to that. I mean,

424
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 3: first of all, absolutely, yes, Like I've read some anti

425
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,160
Speaker 3: abortion terror manuals speaking of extremely unpleasant research and it's

426
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 3: just really like these people are murderers. It's mass murderers,

427
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 3: Like you're like killing Hitler, right.

428
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,360
Speaker 4: And wouldn't you wouldn't you kill baby Hitler exactly?

429
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 3: But poltical about baby Hitler in like a countrywide scale.

430
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 3: And when specific abortion doctors have been mentioned in right

431
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 3: wing media, those guys end up dead and that's not

432
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 3: a coincidence. So there's that element of it, which is

433
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 3: the majority of it. It's huge. But there's also this

434
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 3: idea of demonic geography, where like demons can possess sort

435
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 3: of places like abortion clinics or institutions like planned parenthood

436
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 3: or even the Democratic Party, which you know, I read

437
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 3: a lot of demonology books like Taxonomies of Demons. Pigs

438
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,199
Speaker 3: in the Parlor was this really big hit in like

439
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 3: the seventies, and it's been like reissued and reissued and

440
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 3: millions of copies, and it's just like, on one level,

441
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 3: it's really compelling because it's like are you tired, are

442
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,439
Speaker 3: you sad? Are you feeling clumsy? Do you have like

443
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 3: persistent stomach aches? It's demons and here's how you deal

444
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 3: with that. And like, in a country with shitty healthcare,

445
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,639
Speaker 3: I can totally see why someone who's like really depressed

446
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 3: might go to like an exorcist or a deliverance minister,

447
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 3: which is the Protestant.

448
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 4: If you'll try anything, and this guy's going to do

449
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 4: it for free.

450
00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 3: I watched so many videos of deliverance ministers doing their thing,

451
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 3: and it's like crazy. It's like people, you know, are

452
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 3: just like sitting there and they're like people praying over

453
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,880
Speaker 3: them and screaming in their face, like and they wind

454
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 3: up vomiting and crying and it's all very like intense.

455
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 3: And you know, if you think about it from a

456
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 3: placebo effect perspective for like one second, you're like, obviously

457
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 3: this person would feel a weightlifted from them they've had

458
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 3: this ecstatic experience. And this isn't the majority of it.

459
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 3: This is about fourteen percent of America identifies this as

460
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,199
Speaker 3: white evangelics, so many Protestants and still so many people

461
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 3: because people keep asking me, like how many people really

462
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 3: believe shit like this? And I'm like, well, about eighty

463
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 3: to ninety percent of like people who identify as white

464
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 3: Evangelical Protestants espows most of these beliefs.

465
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 4: So that's like third, that's like thirty million people yeah.

466
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then you add in the Catholic right.

467
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 4: Which is getting weirder every day.

468
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 3: Yeah JD Evans, I hate women exist to reproduce breed

469
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 3: you filthy now. But like even beyond the adult Catholic

470
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 3: convert style weirdness, like right wing Catholics are an integral

471
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 3: part of the Christian right, like Amy Cony Barrett, you know,

472
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 3: antonin Scalia, that kind of thing. That's another bunch of millions.

473
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:22,679
Speaker 3: So this reactionary force has like numerically significant constituency. On

474
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 3: the other hand, it definitely punches way above its weight

475
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 3: in terms of right.

476
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 2: They have an outsized influence of both you know, on

477
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,880
Speaker 2: the legislative floor and when it comes to you know,

478
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 2: who's racking up the most bodies.

479
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, And also even like the culture wars right, like

480
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 3: the sort of loudest culture warriors tend to at least

481
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 3: come from like a background of I'm speaking for God

482
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 3: or Christ is King or whatever it is, Like how

483
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,919
Speaker 3: many times have you and I encountered that an extremist

484
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 3: contacts But also like the sort of more mainstream me,

485
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 3: what the fuck the mainstream is? I don't know, it's

486
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 3: full of piss, But like the more mainstream like Christian grifter, Right,

487
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 3: they come from this. I'm speaking from my faith. These

488
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 3: are my religious principles. But like it is worth noting

489
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 3: again just to rewind in our conversation. But like the

490
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 3: full concept of religious liberty and religious freedom absolutely was

491
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 3: like an ad slogan coined in the seventies around segregation.

492
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 2: Right, religious freedom to do what? I mean, it's like

493
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 2: states rights, States rights.

494
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 4: To do what?

495
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 3: Right? Yeah, like you answer the question, Yeah, it's religious

496
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 3: freedom to have segregated schools, is the answer to that.

497
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,880
Speaker 2: And you still see echoes of that with either still

498
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 2: religious schools that can't accept federal grant money because they

499
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 2: don't let students be gay, right, Like it's not racial

500
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 2: segregation anymore, but they are refusing to admit gay students, and.

501
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 4: That is a violation of federal civil rights law.

502
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, but that's where I mean, that's where that slogan started.

503
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 3: And then it's blossomed to clue basically like a gay

504
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 3: person came into my shop.

505
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 2: Except they didn't, right, I know, there's no standing, right,

506
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 2: Like that whole case was built a lie.

507
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 4: Whatever.

508
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 3: That's yeah, it's like and the standing in the Supreme

509
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 3: Court is so ridiculous. This, I mean, in many ways,

510
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 3: this Supreme Court is the culmination and embodiment and a

511
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 3: botheosis of like Christian right theocracy, because you have these

512
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,120
Speaker 3: like absolutely bat shit religious zealots, I mean, Amy Cony

513
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 3: Barrett is like from a cult, and in this unaccountable body,

514
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 3: they're passing unpopular theocratic principles that the majority of the

515
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 3: American public uh disagrees with. But like specifically, what they

516
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 3: are trying to enact and what they are what they

517
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 3: are enacting is this theocratic agenda where like the government

518
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 3: is in your bedroom, the government is in your doctor's office,

519
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 3: like the government is sniffing your panties, and it's it's

520
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 3: gross and it's upsetting and fundamentally, like theocracies are just

521
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 3: very famous all up in your junk, like they're obsessed

522
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 3: with like controlling and censoring sexuality of all kinds of

523
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 3: a particularly female sexuality and queer sexuality, like snuff those out.

524
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 3: And so that's part of the reason why so many

525
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 3: abortion arguments, Like first of all, you have the like

526
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 3: the you're murdering this cluster of cells which is a

527
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 3: full human baby, Like do you remember that article in

528
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 3: the Guardian a couple of years ago that like showed

529
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 3: the actual size of like fetuses at various stages of development,

530
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 3: and it was like you were just like so little,

531
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 3: like these little like little fingernails.

532
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it doesn't look like a tiny baby doll.

533
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 2: That's just very small.

534
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, it's not like a mini baby like it

535
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 3: like tides of gore. It's like literally like a tiny

536
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 3: cluster of cells. So the anti abortion propaganda, like, you

537
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 3: are not immune to propaganda. It has like wormed its

538
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 3: way into the popular consciousness just by virtue of its

539
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 3: ubiquity and constant repetition being the key to successful propaganda.

540
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 3: But so many of these arguments, in addition to this

541
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 3: abortion is murder stuff is also just like you should

542
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 3: have kept your legs closed.

543
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 2: Right, this is a this is a consequence God did

544
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 2: this to you. Yeah, Like sex for your sins immortal sin,

545
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 2: and sex should be punished and.

546
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 4: They must be doing it wrong.

547
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 3: Like I'm like, why do you want sex to have

548
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:29,959
Speaker 3: consequences and be punished? The like intensity of the misogyny

549
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 3: around purity culture is so intense.

550
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you, you know, about the experience

551
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 2: of writing the book. Right, So you know, your first book,

552
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 2: Culture Warlords, was traumatizing for you to craft, right, because

553
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 2: you had to spend so much time in these digital

554
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 2: spaces in some in some cases physical spaces with you know,

555
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 2: neo Nazis, four Chen guys, you know, aspiring terrorists, and

556
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 2: so that's traumatic to experience, you know, But largely that

557
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 2: experience was alone, like at your computer screen, sort of

558
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 2: consuming this content that was eroding your soul.

559
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 4: But the second half.

560
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 2: Of this book is about child abuse, right, and like

561
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 2: you interviewed people who grew up in this movement about

562
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 2: their lives, about their husband's raping them and their parents

563
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 2: beating them as children, and like, how did those experiences compare?

564
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 2: And like what was that? How, I mean, how did

565
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 2: you prepare to do that? I don't know even know

566
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 2: how it would begin to do that with care.

567
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 3: I mean, I think my goal going in is like

568
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 3: I'm not going to betray you, Like that was my

569
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 3: guiding ethos of just like I view like your trust

570
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 3: in me as a sacred thing, not like sacred in

571
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 3: any formal religious sense, but just like you know, I

572
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 3: view your trust in me as something that I hold

573
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 3: very dearly. It's very important. I'm going to treat your

574
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 3: pain with as much gentleness and respect as I can.

575
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 3: And like, I interviewed over one hundred people largely about

576
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 3: their experiences with experiencing child abuse and an evangelical milieu

577
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 3: as is laid out with pain steaking instructions and like

578
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 3: all of these parenting manuals. Actually, like I think reading

579
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 3: the parenting manuals was even more disturbing than talking to people,

580
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 3: because like people were like, this fucked me up and

581
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 3: it was wrong. And then these books are like, no,

582
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 3: you must beat your toddler because Jesus says so, and

583
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 3: like here's exactly how to beat your toddler, and here's

584
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 3: what you should use to beat your toddler, and here's

585
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 3: the like supremely fucked up, like weird ritual that we prescribe.

586
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 3: And then like reading those in tandem with like like

587
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 3: the accounts of people who were like this specific thing

588
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 3: like sucked me up for life and really messed up

589
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 3: my ability to have like intimacy or self confidence or

590
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 3: whatever all of that stuff. I mean, that was tough.

591
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 3: I definitely took more time, Like I wrote Culture Warlords

592
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 3: in nine months, so I was like totally immersed constantly

593
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 3: it just like didn't come up for air yeah at all.

594
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 3: And this one I was like, I need a little

595
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 3: more time, guys, Like I wrote it over, you know,

596
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 3: almost three years. I also pretentiously started calling this philosophy

597
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 3: guarding your Heart because I really got lost in the

598
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 3: sauce with culture warlords, Like I was in a dark

599
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 3: place while I was writing it, and afterwards I was

600
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 3: also the like it came out in mid COVID, so

601
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 3: that didn't help either. But uh, it was a real,

602
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 3: really rough experience with this. I was like, I'm going

603
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 3: to keep writing. I'm gonna write about sandwiches all the

604
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 3: way through. I'm going to like make sure I have

605
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 3: friendships and stuff that's grounding me. I think consciously having

606
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 3: that at the forefront of my mind really helped.

607
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 1: That.

608
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 3: Being said, like what was really encouraging was all of

609
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 3: these people who had experienced this sort of child abuse

610
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 3: industrial complex in the evangelical community, where like we really

611
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 3: value that someone wants to hear what we have to say,

612
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 3: and also that it's someone from outside the community is

613
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 3: like paying attention and thinks this is important, which is

614
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 3: not to denigrate like expangelical voices, but more to say that, Like,

615
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 3: I guess there's a certain validation when someone who's like

616
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 3: not didn't grow up in your corner of religiosity, dark corner.

617
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 4: And I'm sort of bringing it to an outside audience too.

618
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 2: I think a lot of expangelicals their audience is largely

619
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 2: their fellow expangelicals exactly.

620
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 3: And I'm someone who, like I grew up as a Jew,

621
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 3: and I'm like, yeah, this sucked, this is terrible. I'm

622
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 3: like appalled reading like to Train Up a Child by

623
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 3: The Pearls or The Strong Willed Child by jam Stobson, which, like,

624
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 3: to be clear, the strong willed child is a bad thing.

625
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:50,839
Speaker 3: It's a bad thing to have a child with us.

626
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 2: You have to beat it out of them, sure, literally,

627
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 2: And I'm going into this in the wild recently. I

628
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 2: don't know if you have come across this guy online.

629
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 2: Do you know the nineties movie The Little Rascals.

630
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 3: Oh my god, alf from The Little Rascals turns out

631
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 3: to be able Salfa.

632
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 2: The guy who played Alfalfa's name is Bug Hall. He

633
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 2: like really like I don't, got into a sort of

634
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 2: main character situation over some posts about how he beats

635
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 2: his infants.

636
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 4: He beats infants because that's I guess, a good way

637
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 4: to raise a baby.

638
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 3: Yeah. Also I think he's homeless.

639
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 4: No, he's a surf.

640
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 2: Oh he's in a voluntary serfdom arrangement.

641
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:38,240
Speaker 3: Oh my god. Okay, well he sounds like a big rascal. Yeah,

642
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 3: he's continued that trajectory of rascaledom. But don't be your kids.

643
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 3: I mean, I will also say the reason why this

644
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 3: book focuses so much on child abuse, which, like I

645
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 3: encountered some some haters and losers and doubters along the

646
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:53,839
Speaker 3: way who were like, why are you focused so much

647
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 3: on child abuse? And I was like, there are a

648
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 3: lot of different theories about like how authoritarianism developed, but

649
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:04,359
Speaker 3: one of the big ones is focusing on the pedagogy

650
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:09,720
Speaker 3: in authoritarian societies. Societies that become authoritarian, you know, evolve

651
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 3: from democracy to authoritarianism, and beating the shit out of

652
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 3: people from when they're in infancy and particularly when they

653
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 3: display disobedience or ask why, or you know, just deviate

654
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 3: from expectations.

655
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 4: It's a great way to make an obedient brown shirt.

656
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, Like this is a recipe for future authoritarians.

657
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 3: Like the people I spoke to had sort of broken

658
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 3: away largely from this culture. But many of the sort

659
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 3: of most obedient soldiers in the Army's Army of God

660
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,319
Speaker 3: like are that way. Because again, I can't overemphasize how

661
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 3: much these parenting manuals, which spanned from like nineteen seventy

662
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 3: to twenty fifteen, these texts, you know, the dates that

663
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 3: they were published, emphasize having an obedient child. What you

664
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 3: want is not like a child who's kind or curious

665
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 3: or thoughtful or smart. It's obedient, instantly obedient. Don't make

666
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 3: me count to three is the title of one of

667
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,760
Speaker 3: the books, And like, what you're creating is a culture

668
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 3: of people who a like empathize with the aggressor at

669
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,319
Speaker 3: all times. So hence this admiration for strength and even

670
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 3: admiration for cruelty, people who are trained to obey and

671
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 3: obey without question, and people who are very acclimated to

672
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 3: the use of violence.

673
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 4: I mean, you're doing fascism in the home, right.

674
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 3: So the the author, like Alice Miller, the the author

675
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 3: of the book For Your Own Good, lays out a

676
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 3: pretty she was also a Holocaust survivor. She lays out

677
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 3: a pretty strong case for like, you know, early twentieth

678
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 3: century Germany having this poisonous pedagogy that also involved beating

679
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,320
Speaker 3: the shit out of your kids until I was illegal

680
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 3: to love your children, Yeah, to obey you, and how

681
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 3: basically this is how you make a torture and the

682
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 3: book is called or your Own Good And yeah, I

683
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 3: mean I really think it is like under valued in politics,

684
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 3: Like how much this culture of corporal punishment, which is yeah,

685
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 3: Americans have like moved away from universal approval of corporal punishment,

686
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 3: we're still like a lot higher than other Western democracies

687
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 3: in that regard, and like on a national level, we're

688
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 3: the only country in the world that hasn't ratified the

689
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 3: UN Conventions on the Rights of a Child, which include

690
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 3: like having a name and like not being beaten and

691
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 3: not being thrown into like ju the solitary.

692
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 2: Oh well, that's why America can't touch that. We need

693
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 2: to incarcerate the children.

694
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, the children, you're in for the cells. But it's

695
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 3: also just like a lot of it actually was like

696
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 3: worries that like evangelicals like would sort of object to

697
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 3: the interference in their it's.

698
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,359
Speaker 2: An infringement on their religious freedom to bet the shit

699
00:38:59,440 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 2: out of baby.

700
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they're parental rights which is another buzzword of

701
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 3: this this movement.

702
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 4: Parental rights is a red flag for me.

703
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, no, I hear parental rights, and I think

704
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 3: you want to beat the shit out of your kids.

705
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 4: You don't want your children to learn science.

706
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, you at a homeschool and under educate your kids

707
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 3: or miseducate.

708
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,280
Speaker 2: You want to cause a measle's outbreak exactly.

709
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 3: But that's like for us because we're weirdos. We're like

710
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 3: obsessively clued into this stuff. If you're not, Like, parental

711
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,959
Speaker 3: rights is like religious freedom is, like it sounds good, Yeah,

712
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,240
Speaker 3: it's an effective marketing slogan, but like what it means

713
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:39,800
Speaker 3: is like we're going to show up at the school

714
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 3: board and yell about how I mean. And Trump is

715
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 3: like bought into this obviously because he knows where his

716
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 3: bread is buttered. He has savvy Like he's like, you guys,

717
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 3: do the policy. But like his current parental rights based

718
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,320
Speaker 3: his biggest like policy that he's advocating is like denying

719
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 3: federal funding to any school with any vaccine a mandate,

720
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 3: which is basically just like make measles great again, like

721
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,760
Speaker 3: bring back diphtheria. I think, like, yes, the maga movement

722
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 3: ister of the the efflorescence, the apotheosis of this steadily

723
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 3: building power, but like there's also just like fifty years

724
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,439
Speaker 3: of power building behind it. And like even if Trump

725
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 3: was defeated at the federal level, which like I profoundly

726
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 3: hope he is, sorry to come out as like a

727
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 3: you know, partisan, a voter, like a hashtag a voter,

728
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,240
Speaker 3: but like, I think it would be just a nauseatingly

729
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 3: it's a horrifying thought that he I mean, first of all,

730
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 3: you would absolutely enact every item in this theocratic agenda,

731
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 3: starting with a national abortion band like that would happen

732
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 3: in the first hundred days, I think, which would just

733
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 3: functionally plunge American women into like a very very dark

734
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 3: septocemic nightmare.

735
00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, the dark place that we're going as a coffin.

736
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:00,879
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah.

737
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:01,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

738
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 3: But even should he lose, which you know hope, there's

739
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 3: still twenty two states where abortion is outlawed or severely restricted,

740
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 3: and these places are becoming care deserts. Like medical residents.

741
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 3: My extremely sexy partner is a medical resident, so I

742
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:26,320
Speaker 3: know more about the state of medicine than I otherwise would.

743
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 3: But like residents don't want to do their residencies in

744
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 3: states with abortion restrictions, they're like, right, given.

745
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 2: A choice, gynecological providers just aren't practicing there anymore. Like

746
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 2: even if you know, even your primary focus is not abortions,

747
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 2: or even if your primary focus is not you know,

748
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 2: pregnancy care, they just don't want to They just don't

749
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 2: want to work there.

750
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 3: Well, also, first of all that, but second of all,

751
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 3: it's like, if you're in the er, you're going to

752
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 3: experience pregnancy losss It happens in one in five pregnancy.

753
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 2: Right, So they're choosing to work in states where they're

754
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 2: not going to go to jail for doing medicine.

755
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like they don't want to incur the moral injury

756
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,399
Speaker 3: of not being able to apply the standard of care

757
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 3: to patients in extremely common situations such as incomplete miscarriage

758
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 3: and you know, pregnancy loss, whether you know self induced

759
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,399
Speaker 3: or just like miscarriage is super common and nobody talks

760
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 3: about it.

761
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 2: It's more common than we an Ectopic pregnancy is so

762
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 2: much more common than people realize. Like there are so

763
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 2: many things that your body can do to betray you

764
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 2: that you need a doctor help.

765
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 3: With just ordinary pregnancy.

766
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 4: And then after the baby is born, then your lustrous

767
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 4: hair all falls out.

768
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like ordinary pregnancy is so fraught with like weird

769
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 3: body horror. Like, but anyway, that's besides the point. Whatever.

770
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 3: The point is someone presents with abdominal pain in the

771
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 3: er and it turns out to be an ectopic pregnancy,

772
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 3: and like you can't do standard of care like dilation

773
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 3: and cure tash procedures without checking with the hospital lawyer.

774
00:42:56,120 --> 00:43:00,800
Speaker 3: Like that is a really bad position a care provider

775
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 3: to be in. So when you have these fundamentally unscientific laws,

776
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 3: right that are produced by people who don't know anything

777
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 3: about pregnancy and are like very intentionally ambiguous, so that

778
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 3: cautious institutions will sort of interpret them at maximally interpret them,

779
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 3: Like the life of the mother.

780
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 4: How dead does she have to be? First?

781
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, she has to be almost dead, right, and then

782
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,919
Speaker 3: sometimes she winds up dying because almost dead is tough

783
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 3: to judge, Like, it just winds up this grotesque sort

784
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:38,319
Speaker 3: of farce of medicine, and very directly, like residents don't

785
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 3: want to train, doctors don't want to practice in these places,

786
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 3: and so you.

787
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 2: Know, right, so this ends up killing more people than

788
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:47,799
Speaker 2: just the ones hemorrhaging in the parking lot. There are

789
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 2: people who have completely unrelated problems who are now unable

790
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 2: to access unrelated kinds of care because the doctors just aren't.

791
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 3: There, Yeah, Or people who have ordinary wanted pregnancies who

792
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 3: can't access neonatal care, who have to drive hours and

793
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 3: hours and hours to like get checkups, like you know,

794
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 3: I mean, human reproduction is like a pretty major part

795
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:08,959
Speaker 3: of like life.

796
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:10,839
Speaker 4: And a lot of people are doing it.

797
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, like it's sort of how you know, It's just

798
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,839
Speaker 3: people do it all the time, and like, not being

799
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 3: able to access medical care around like the entire spectrum

800
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:24,439
Speaker 3: of like reproduction is pretty catastrophic. But yeah, it also

801
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 3: impacts all the people not engaging in reproduction at this

802
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 3: moment in time, like doctors who are just like fuck this,

803
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 3: I'm not wearing out an er in Tennessee, you know,

804
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 3: because I want to be able to treat patients.

805
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:37,479
Speaker 4: Without a lawyer in the room.

806
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly, I mean, And then there are doctors

807
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 3: who are bigots and doctors who are happily on board

808
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 3: with abortion bands. But like, do you want that to

809
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 3: be the only doctor in your county? I don't think so,

810
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 3: you know, it's just it's a really grim situation. And

811
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 3: I just like, I'm such an absolutist about bodily autonomy.

812
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 3: It's like, if you don't own your body, you are

813
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 3: not a full citizen, period of story. Like if if

814
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 3: a major organ in your body is treated as a

815
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 3: controlled substance, like, you are not a full and equal

816
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 3: citizen with rights, which I would like to be.

817
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 4: I aspire to it.

818
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I want to ask you one more question

819
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:16,799
Speaker 2: about your book, and I will let you go.

820
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:18,879
Speaker 4: I told you that I wouldn't keep you very long,

821
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 4: and I lied.

822
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 3: But it's like, it's just because I like talking to you.

823
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:28,280
Speaker 3: So it's I think I've done the majority of the talkics.

824
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,720
Speaker 3: You can't. You can't be like, oh, it's about your book,

825
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 3: which you should buy listeners.

826
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 4: Pre order it now wherever you buy your books.

827
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 3: And if you like the delcent tones of my voice,

828
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 3: which are I shouldn't have you to narrate in my

829
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 3: audio books, you brush that passage.

830
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:47,879
Speaker 4: I'm a professional talker now, yeah.

831
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well I narrated the audio book and then was like,

832
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 3: why did I write such complicated sentences? Afterwards?

833
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 2: So now that I read my own writing, like on

834
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 2: a regular basis out loud, which.

835
00:45:59,239 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 4: Is new for me.

836
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:01,359
Speaker 2: Right, So you know, I have my podcast and I'm

837
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 2: writing my little scripts and then I'm reading into a

838
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 2: little microphone. Now that I struggle with that. I noticed

839
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:09,240
Speaker 2: while I was reading your book that oh I wouldn't

840
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 2: be able to read this out loud. I know, where

841
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,959
Speaker 2: would I breathe? I know it was because I write

842
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 2: like that too, and it's something I'm like really grappling

843
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 2: with right now.

844
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 3: She's like call me ten clubs, Talia. I'm like, ah, fuck,

845
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 3: this sentence is this paragraph? This sentence is a paragraph.

846
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 3: Stop it.

847
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 4: Like I really really lost, really lost momentum on that one.

848
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:30,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, but like I managed to get through it.

849
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 3: And if you if you enjoy the dulcae sounds of

850
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 3: my voice, you can hear it for like I don't know,

851
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 3: eight hours or whatever. I assume we're being like, listen

852
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 3: to my voice.

853
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 4: But you know, invite me into your mind.

854
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I do think it's nice as an author

855
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 3: to read your audiobook because I can like get mad

856
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 3: and like, you know, emphasize stuff that I think is important.

857
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 3: And also I'm a theater kid, like, like I don't

858
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 3: have many opportunities to perform, and it is a performance

859
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 3: and it's it's fun.

860
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 4: But yeah, and that comes out at the same time

861
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 4: as the physical book.

862
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 3: Yes, it comes out audio ebook, physical book with a

863
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 3: cool snake on it.

864
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, Oh, I guess this is an audio medium.

865
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 2: The listener can't see that I'm showing the cool cover.

866
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's got a cool snake, a red and black

867
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 3: snake on the cover. I've named him Rocco, but he

868
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 3: has a cross for a tongue. If you're looking for

869
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:29,320
Speaker 3: a book to give to the metal head in your life,

870
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:35,800
Speaker 3: oh yeah, it's pretty metal, metal heads, atheists, degenerates. Everyone

871
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:37,720
Speaker 3: is going to love this book.

872
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 4: It's perfect for everyone.

873
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 3: And if you're light on cash flow, want it for

874
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 3: supporting India authors is ask your library to stock it

875
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 3: or your local bookstore because library orders are really important

876
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 3: and you can just like put in a request in

877
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 3: your library system and that is super helpful.

878
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,720
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, everybody go to your library's website right now

879
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 2: and request that they purchase a copy of Wild Faith

880
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 2: by Talia Lavin. Yeah, talywhere else can people find you online?

881
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:10,840
Speaker 3: So I have a newsletter. It's on button down. I

882
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 3: left substack because they were like, We're never gonna sensor Nazis,

883
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:16,880
Speaker 3: but we will sensor porn. And I was like, I

884
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:18,839
Speaker 3: don't like your priorities, so I left for button Down.

885
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:22,400
Speaker 3: So it's buttondown dot com slash the sword in the sandwich,

886
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 3: or if you just google the sword and the sandwich

887
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 3: comes up. Most Tuesdays I write about like the horrific

888
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 3: state of politics, et cetera, and then Fridays I write

889
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 3: an essay about a different sandwich on Wikipedia's list of

890
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 3: notable sandwiches, and so far I've written one hundred and

891
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 3: eleven sandwiches.

892
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 2: The sandwich content alone is worth the price of admission.

893
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 2: You need to find out about these sandwiches.

894
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 3: I mean it just and I get really deep into

895
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 3: the history and the provenance and like like ah, the

896
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 3: shifting of peoples led to this sandwich, so I get

897
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 3: really deep into it. And then you can also find

898
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:04,399
Speaker 3: me on Blue Sky, where I most of the time

899
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 3: now because Twitter is just like robots and Nazis and

900
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 3: Nazi robots, where I'm at swords Jew. I'm still on

901
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 3: Vishy Twitter as Mobi Dick Energy. And you know, if

902
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 3: you want to say hi or invite me to speak

903
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 3: at your synagogue or bookstore I'm at Talia l even

904
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 3: writes at gmail dot com. Or church if you're like cool. Yeah,

905
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 3: if it's like a cool church, yeah, you show up

906
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 3: and they pass you with snake yeah exactly. Oh God,

907
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:37,919
Speaker 3: I didn't do enough speaking you times for this book.

908
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 2: Well, Tally, thank you so much for coming on today again.

909
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:44,840
Speaker 2: The book is Wild Faith by Talia Lavin, and you

910
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 2: can pre order it now wherever books are sold, and

911
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:49,720
Speaker 2: you should request it from your library.

912
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, we stand civic services, and I'm a huge fan

913
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 3: of public libraries and also of Molly Conger. So thanks

914
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 3: for having me on and take care, Bye bye.

915
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

916
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

917
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:16,880
Speaker 1: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

918
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

919
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 3: You listen to podcasts.

920
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 1: We can now find sources for It Could Happen here

921
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 1: listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.