1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: I think that con artists are effective because they are 2 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: incredible readers of human beings. What they do better than 3 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 1: almost anyone else is figure out what makes you personally tick, 4 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: what motivates you, What are your hopes, what are you 5 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: scared of you know? What are your fears, what are 6 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: your hang ups? How do you see the world, what 7 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: are the biases and the lenses through which you view reality? 8 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: And then what they do is sell that back to you. 9 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: They give you the vision of the world that you 10 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 1: already believe in, the vision of yourself that you want 11 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 1: to see reflected back and not reality. Part of what 12 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:53,959 Speaker 1: makes a con artist story so compelling is there's usually 13 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: a grain of truth that makes the lie more convincing. 14 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: So it will with Rosales and the story she was 15 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: spinning to Anne Friedman about a supposed Clifford Still painting. 16 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: It was a wild tale in which the painting was 17 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 1: said to be photographed then stored in the trunk of 18 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: a car. Only the car's rear engine had caught fire, 19 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: leaving the painting badly burned and unsellable. And it happened. 20 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: Actually Carlos was preparing the pieces, and he was threaten 21 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 1: them with her dryers and putting them in coal and 22 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: hot temperatures, so that one got burned because he forgot 23 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: to turn the hair dryer of, and of course it 24 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,320 Speaker 1: went in flames. And now Anne is waiting for the piece. 25 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: Then what is this planation I'm going to give Carlos 26 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: tom It would tell them this ironically, and Freedman would 27 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: later use a fragment of the burned painting as proof 28 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: the paintings must have been real. After all, what forgers 29 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 1: would intentionally burn their carefully crafted artwork. In fact, certain 30 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: materials in the burned fragment typically appeared in authentic Clifford 31 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: Still paintings, A mishap that could have hindered the entire 32 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 1: operation became instead proof of the paintings Authenticityfra Rosalee is 33 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: unquestionably the most fascinating and elusive character in the story 34 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: of the Knoler scandal. While many of the major players 35 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: have sat for interviews on camera or in print over 36 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: the years, Mosalez has only told her story privately to 37 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 1: federal prosecutors and investigators. Michael Schnayerson and I spoke with 38 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: Gfira rosales in early in a small conference room at 39 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: the Lowell Hotel in New York City. She was accompanied 40 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: by her daughter solely. Rosales is a shy, diminutive woman 41 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: with straight, dark hair almost shoulder length, and glasses that 42 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 1: make her look rather academic. She speaks softly, apologizing for 43 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: her English these days. Rosales lives with her daughter in 44 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: a small Upper east Side apartment, decades before the irresistible 45 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: hustle of New York City life would lure her to 46 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: Knodler Fra. Rosales was born and raised in Mexico. My 47 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: father had a lot of cows, all kind of animals, 48 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 1: and we have to help with everything, of course, so 49 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 1: it was a little runch so no water, no electricity. 50 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: I grew up with a very difficult father. My childhood, 51 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: it was very, very difficult. Your father was difficult, well, 52 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: he was abusive. You know. We have to get up 53 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: at four o'clock in the morning go and help him 54 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: to the farm. Also helped my mom clean places for 55 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: the animals, gave them food, carry water from kilometers away 56 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: because there was no water. And then I went to 57 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: Mexico City, so I studied there. I was a north 58 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: I became a Norse, and then I was a study 59 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: in medicine. It was my dream to be a doctor. 60 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 1: Despite her initial dreams of working in medicine, Rosalas was 61 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: intrigued by fine art as well. At the school, they 62 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: teach you about art, about the mural list, the big 63 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: mural list of the country, like the rivera Frida Carlo, 64 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 1: all of them. By the age of nineteen, rosals had 65 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: a boyfriend, a scruffy, an impressive restaurateur in Mexico City 66 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: named Carlos Bergantinos. Carlos had come from Spain to run 67 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 1: a little eatery in Mexico's capital. City's sister worked as 68 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: a waitress at the restaurant. One night, she called Glafira 69 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: in a panic. As it turned out, a relationship that 70 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: would be fraught with chaos started no less dramatically. She 71 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 1: was scared that something happened at the restaurant somebody, which 72 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 1: it was him. It was drunk and he was having problems. 73 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: So I came to help him, kind of rescue him, 74 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 1: and from then he never leave me alone. Despite their 75 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: chaotic beginnings, bergen Tinos and Rosawa's stayed together and would 76 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:31,039 Speaker 1: eventually have a daughter together. It was bergen Tinos who 77 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: first urged Gofra to come to the United States. I 78 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: never want to come here. I never thought that it 79 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: was good to come here. I felt sorry for people 80 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: who came here and went through so much, so I 81 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: never thought to come here. But he convinced me to come. 82 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: He said that it was a land of opportunities. Carlos 83 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 1: and a first arrived in Chicago. They lived there only 84 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: for a short time before moving south to Houston, Texas, 85 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:06,359 Speaker 1: where the couple worked many different low wage jobs to 86 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 1: support themselves. He was working as a waiter, he works 87 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: as a chef. I clean houses. I work as a guaitress, 88 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: bus girl, taking care of elderly people. From Houston, the 89 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 1: couple eventually moved to New York City. They arrived one 90 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: night on a bus at Port Authority, walking past prostitutes 91 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: and drug addicts. They carried their bags to a shelter 92 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: on Fourteenth Street, but were turned away. They ended up 93 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: that first night in a hotel on West fourteenth Street 94 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 1: with communal bathrooms so appalling that GFRA used a bucket 95 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: to avoid them. Longing for a more peaceful and safer community, 96 00:06:55,839 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: Carlos and Glaf settled in Great Neck Long Island. One 97 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 1: early business venture for the pair was learning how to 98 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 1: treat antique furniture, specifically, how to make new furniture look old. 99 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: There seemed to be some promise in that. Inside a 100 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: local art gallery, one day, Carlos Bergantino stumbled onto a 101 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: potentially more lucrative idea. We were selling antiquities and we 102 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: came to a gallery where they were selling art too, 103 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: and they say that this painting is on the style 104 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: of And from there is where Carlos got the idea 105 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: of off, if they could work with antiquities, why not 106 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: work with paintings making them look old. Tool Fira says 107 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: she resisted the idea, but had no choice. Carlos pressure me. 108 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: He pressured me, he um abuse me physically, and and 109 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: vali and um. He also threatened me to take my 110 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: door away. He couldn't go to galeries himself because he 111 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: held that reputation, so I had no choice. As it 112 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: turned out, Carlos Burgontina's was highly skilled at aging new 113 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: artworks and presenting them as old master works. He first 114 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: used his burgeoning talent to sell at least one fake 115 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: painting presented as a work by the artist Jean Michel Basquiat. Well, 116 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: what happened was that painting unentitled one is a fake 117 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: Basquiat painting that was sold by Christie's back in the 118 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: early nineties. That's Richard Gallop, a New York City attorney 119 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 1: who specializes in the art world. Basiad died I think 120 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: in seven. This painting was sold at auction in at 121 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: Christie's and it was consigned to Christie's by Burgontinos, and 122 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:01,199 Speaker 1: the painting was sold as an authentic Baskia and it 123 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: sold for two hundred thousand dollars, and then Tony Shafrazie 124 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: then exhibited it at his gallery and a Basquia show 125 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: back in I think in those days Christie's didn't care 126 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:17,839 Speaker 1: about verifying or confirming the information, or they had a 127 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: posity of information about the consigner. So the consigner didn't 128 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: have to give his social Security number, didn't have to 129 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: prove how he knew Bascia, didn't have to give any 130 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:33,719 Speaker 1: kind of biographical history of the relationship between him and Baskia, 131 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: how he acquieted from the artist. They just took it 132 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: on consignment, put it on the auction floor, and sold 133 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:44,559 Speaker 1: it well more than amazing. Before the Bascia was consigned 134 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: to Christie's. Christie's they had that painting on an easel 135 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: and they called up Gerard Basquia. Gerard was John Michelle's father, 136 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: and they said, we've got this Basquia. We're not sure 137 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: it's authentic and everything else. Go over and take a 138 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 1: look at it. And he went over to sixty seven 139 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: Street with a friend of his and they looked at 140 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: the painting and he didn't think it was right. They 141 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 1: nevertheless put it in the auction and they sold it. 142 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 1: Boskia showed that even the most renowned auction houses were 143 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: willing to compromise for the sake of a sale, and 144 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: that con artists were all too ready to nudge them along. 145 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: Burgundino's tried another fast one at Christie's in the early 146 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: nine nineties, damaging whatever small reputation he had. Burgund Tino's 147 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 1: got into trouble in the early nineties, you know, because 148 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 1: he went to Christie's and he bid four thousand dollars 149 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,199 Speaker 1: for a South American painting and then ran out of 150 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 1: the auction room. That's always great when a bitter runs 151 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: out of the auction room. Afterward, they can't get his number. 152 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: Literally ran out of there, I guess, so yeah, and this, 153 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:51,839 Speaker 1: of course at the same time as the boskiat right 154 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 1: right in and around the same time, they were buying 155 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: paintings all over the place and phonying up paintings all 156 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: over the place. On another occasion, around nineteen Carlos made 157 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,559 Speaker 1: a successful bid of eighty five thousand dollars on a 158 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: nineteenth century Spanish painting, but then he failed to make 159 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: payment and take the work. Christie sued him as a result. 160 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: Because of these ham handed art deals, money for Carlos 161 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: and Glaphyra was tight. To make ends meet, Glypha sold 162 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: Halloween pumpkins. She sold flowers. At one point, she and 163 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 1: Carlos even wholesaled lobsters to New York restaurants. On Long 164 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: Island's north shore, Carlos had come to love fishing and 165 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 1: hung out with local fishermen. On a whim, he bought 166 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: an old ambulance and filled it with lobsters freshly caught 167 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,839 Speaker 1: by his pals. Carlos would then deliver the lobsters to 168 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 1: Manhattan restaurants in the ambulance. One day, with lobsters on board, 169 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: bound for a local restaurant, Carlos found himself running late. 170 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,319 Speaker 1: The restaurant owner threatened to fire him if he missed 171 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: his deadline. In desperation, Carlos turned on the ambulance's siren 172 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: and raced through traffic, arriving just in time. Glafia urged 173 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 1: him not to use the siren again, but Carlos wouldn't 174 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: hear of it. He continued his ambulance lobster deliveries, racing 175 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: down the streets of New York with the siren wailing. Eventually, 176 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: Carlos was pulled over by police. Did the ambulance workers 177 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 1: need an escort? No? Carlos said, no problem there. The 178 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:35,559 Speaker 1: cops grew suspicious. What was he transporting? Sheepishly, Carlos pulled 179 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: out two lobsters and displayed them in the glare of 180 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: the spotlight. For a moment, the cops stood in stunned silence. 181 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: When Carlos explained his mission, the officers collapsed in laughter, 182 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: more art fraud. In a minute, forced to participate in 183 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: Carlos's art forgery scheme, of began educating herself in art. 184 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: Carlos's mishaps had revealed the obvious He needed to stay 185 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: in the shadows. Fra was now the front person, the 186 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: charmer with a surprisingly keen eye for art. Carlos sent 187 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: me to look for customers. I took courses, I took 188 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: sim possums, I took lectures. Carlos saw himself as something 189 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: of an artist. He even took classes at the Art 190 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: Student League on fifty seven Street in New York. For decades, 191 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: the league had drawn up and coming artists, including many 192 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:46,319 Speaker 1: abstract expressionists, Helen Frankenthaler, Roy Lichtenstein, James Rosenquist, Robert Rauschenberg, 193 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: and Moore. Among the students at the league was a 194 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: Chinese artist named Patian Quan, an immigrant artist taking classes 195 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: and in his spare time selling portraits own street corners 196 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: to earn extra money. He met him in the village 197 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: on sixth Avenue. The painter was there doing portraits. I 198 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: believe people, and that's how I know that he met him. 199 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: Eager to make a market for himself. Kaan also painted 200 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: Impressionist landscapes. Carlos could tell they were good, but where 201 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: was the potential for in the style of Impressionist paintings, 202 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 1: The originals were among the best known artworks in the world. 203 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: Forging a mone water lily painting would be like holding 204 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: up an American flag and claiming it was an original image. 205 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: But creating in the style of works by abstract expressionist 206 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: painters like Pollock, Decooning and the others would work as 207 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: long as Kwan was skilled enough to produce persuasive knockoffs. 208 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: He tried several artists, then he came up with he 209 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 1: was the best. Carlos tried several artists. Can I say 210 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: something about that? There is like that version I see 211 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: on the media that they portrayed Quan the genius. They 212 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: portrayed me, I am the billion but patient he could 213 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: not do that himself. Of course, he needed guidance. Quan's 214 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: later portrayal in the media as the genius artist would 215 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: irk Lafra. She knew that Carlos's contribution to the paintings 216 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: was just as important as Kuan's. Where would Quan be 217 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: without Carlos's idea to create these paintings in the style 218 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: of Lafia saw how much work Quan put into each painting, 219 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: but she also knew just how much of the process 220 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: was a true team effort. The help that I gave 221 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 1: it was to say if it was okay, if it 222 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: was not okay, I mean, And how about Carlos? What 223 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: help did he give them? Well? He gave him, the 224 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: materials he prepared, the materials he signed for the pieces. 225 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: An ambitious artist himself, Quan had grown up in China's 226 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: island city of Joshan and in Shanghai. Early on, he 227 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: had painted portraits of Chairman Mao for display in Chinese 228 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: workplaces and schools. But as the Cultural Revolution ebbed, he 229 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: had participated in a daring abstract art movement in Shanghai. 230 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: At the same time, Quan had begun copying the works 231 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: of well known Chinese artists. It's important to note that 232 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: in Chinese art there's no dishonor in copying others work. 233 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: It's an homage and for that matter, an historical tradition. 234 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: Many artists make a point of creating a sort of 235 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: split screen art, with a traditional painter's picture on one 236 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: side of the campus and a young artist's interpretation of 237 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: it on the other. Armed with a student visa and 238 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 1: his own American dreams, Quan had come to New York 239 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: City in one and moved into a tiny white cottage 240 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: street in wood Haven. Queen's Surviving as an artist proved difficult, however, 241 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: instead of making his name in America, he had been 242 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: forced to take jobs in construction. Kwan's neighbor across the street, 243 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 1: Edwin Gardner, recalled him as unhappy. Whenever he could, Quan 244 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 1: would go back to China to visit. When he was 245 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 1: over in China, he would feel like a rock star. 246 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 1: Gardener explained, because when he walked out on the street, 247 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: everybody knew him, but there was no way to make 248 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 1: a living as an artist in China in those post 249 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 1: cultural revolutionary years. My name is Jong Hun too, just 250 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: ten years away. Put a family name first, but you 251 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: called me perfect. I'm painter. Come here. In nineteen eighty two, 252 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: Hong Tu met Kuan in the United States. They became 253 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: friends and fellow artists. Through the night is patient is 254 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: very quiet person. And also I heard from other students. Uh. 255 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:11,880 Speaker 1: He told me patient is very frustrated because his wife 256 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 1: during Shanghai, his own family, his wife, his children's during Shanghai. 257 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 1: Here he's alone. He feels so lonely, and nobody recogned him, 258 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: nobody know his art, nobody especially his English was not 259 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: so good. Quan displayed his art on a street corner 260 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: in Greenwich Village along with other Chinese artists who had 261 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 1: immigrated to America, but eventually he began to present the 262 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:47,120 Speaker 1: sidewalk art scene. Hong too recalls his friends saying, I'm 263 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: not good to do that. There's a competition between artists. 264 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: People lower pressed people sit there to make portrait, some 265 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: fifteen dollars four portrait. The other one said ten dollars. 266 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 1: He gonna do that because he clearly had some ambition. Yes, 267 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: and he had ambition to be a good artist. Yes. 268 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: One day we have a common friend. She brought patient 269 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: to MoMA. Patient was now down to the floor at 270 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: the front of Monet Water, ready painting, and the crying 271 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: cried like a baby, kneeling down that day in tears. 272 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: At the moment, Quan's passion and his desire to be 273 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: a truly great artist was obvious to everyone who knew him. 274 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,679 Speaker 1: One thing on the tellio, that's what I feeled about 275 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: American after a few years, and give you married American 276 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:51,159 Speaker 1: even never promise you that you will become because of 277 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: or famous a rich artists, but this country promise you 278 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: have the freedom to do. You are undue the last 279 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 1: day of your lafe. I think that early nineteen ninety 280 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: many tense artists plaining portrait in the street, but in 281 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: the same time, and he's still working in the street, 282 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 1: but not like a street portrait artist. He pinned some 283 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:25,160 Speaker 1: small like a landscape that still left opinion. Is his studio, 284 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: then his sail, and then he came out to the 285 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: streets and saw the lands. Yes, that's what I heard. 286 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: People find him rosela boyfriend. As they struggled through the 287 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:43,479 Speaker 1: eighties and early nine nineties, Kuan and hung To had 288 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: much in common, though by outward appearances, hung Too was 289 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: more successful. He found a gallery to represent him both 290 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 1: in New York and China. He rented a sprawling studio 291 00:20:55,760 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: space and woodside queens. The subways overhead rumbled loudly but 292 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 1: were oddly soothing. Some of his work was winsome, even playful. 293 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: He made heavy bronze replicas of McDonald's packaging for French 294 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 1: fries and hamburgers. Other works, particularly at the Art Students League, 295 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 1: showed a darker side, but four hung to the immigrant 296 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: experience on which he based his work was ultimately uplifting, 297 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:29,679 Speaker 1: not so for Quan. One day, Carlos and Glyphura stopped 298 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: to admire the paintings of a Chinese artist doing Impressionist landscapes. 299 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: So skilled was the artist that Carlos introduced himself. He 300 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 1: showed Kwan a book of various artist work, including the 301 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: Hudson River painters. Could Quan paint a picture like one 302 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: of these? Sure? Quan said. The friendly couple offered to 303 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 1: pay him one hundred dollars, and Kuan went off to 304 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: work on his new picture. When the trio met up 305 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 1: again in the village, Quan showed them his painting. It 306 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: was remarkable. Carlos doubled Kwan's compensation to two hundred dollars 307 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 1: per painting. Quan was creating pictures in the style of 308 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: These were interpretations of the original artist's work, with one 309 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: big difference. Carlos and Fia wanted the original artist's name 310 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 1: in the lower right corner, not Quans. Working from the 311 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,360 Speaker 1: garage of his house in Queen's Quan began turning out 312 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: one dazzling knockoff after another. Carlos Lephira noticed that Kwan 313 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: was good at landscapes, but much better at abstract expressionist works. 314 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: That was convenient because the style of the works was 315 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: much more forgiving and subjective. Carlos would come by to 316 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,439 Speaker 1: inspect Kwan's work with Gphia in tow they marveled at 317 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: how realistic the forgeries were. Incredibly At first, Kwan and 318 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 1: Bergantina's sold their fakes on the street. Kwan was paid 319 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: to pittance for his work, about seven dollars per canvas. Now, 320 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: Kwan said nothing to his buyers on the street about 321 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 1: whether the paintings were real or not. He used his 322 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 1: poor English to shrug off all questions. Either the passers 323 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: by bought his paintings or not. Surprising number did. Remarkably, 324 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,959 Speaker 1: Quan proved so fascile that he could imitate not just 325 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: one mid century master, but nearly all of them. Experts 326 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: would be stunned that such a thing was even possible. 327 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 1: Later he would tell ABC News, my intent wasn't from 328 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: my fake paintings to be sold as the real thing. 329 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: They were just copies to put up in your home 330 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: if you like. Over time, Carlos grew more ambitious and 331 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: in his own way, just as skilled as Kwan. He 332 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: brought Kwan old canvases at flea markets and auctions, and 333 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: so applied him with old paints used specifically for forgery. 334 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: Carlos stained the canvases with tea bags to make them 335 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 1: look older. A blow dryer came in handy. He also 336 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:17,159 Speaker 1: exposed the newly painted canvases to harsh weather. Carlos was 337 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:21,639 Speaker 1: particularly good at frames, finding originals at flea markets and 338 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 1: garage sales, and then treating them to look as if 339 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 1: they'd been resting intact for half a century or more. Later, 340 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: when authorities calmed his studio, they would find among supplies 341 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: and envelope labeled Rothcoe Nails, Edwin and Mary Ann Gardner. 342 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 1: Kwan's neighbors and queens began to notice that a man 343 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: in an expensive car would come to Kwan's house fairly, 344 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: often carrying paintings too. Not from the house that was 345 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 1: likely Bergantino's Carlos would bring a painting in for him 346 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 1: to work on or fix up. Gardener recalled of the 347 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: mysterious visitor, but Quan didn't volunteer any details, and Gardner 348 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: thought better than to ask. Into Quan's tiny garage came 349 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 1: the paintings wrapped up. Out they went some days later. 350 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: Before long, Kuan's wife came to join him in the US. 351 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: The result of a complex and expensive process that his 352 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: fellow artists could hardly help but notice, and now with 353 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: some money in his pocket, he decided to celebrate. I 354 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: wouldn't to a big party. He holds it a big 355 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:38,880 Speaker 1: party at his house because his wife moved to New York. 356 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: Beyind him that's biggest things for every everyone, so he 357 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: can give a big party. And after him, hey, what 358 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 1: are you doing right now? He said, I have some 359 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 1: deal of representing my work that time what ad we 360 00:25:53,320 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: called the timeline. He already do the fake painting. Quan 361 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 1: didn't tell Hong To or any of his other guests 362 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: what he was doing. He just turned up the music. Well, 363 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: we were sitting together for Chinese people, Chinese party. It's 364 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 1: not it's all usual usual people just eating, just tolking. No. Later, 365 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: when the truth came out, the occasional right up would 366 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: note that Chinese artists often imitated the work of earlier masters, 367 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: But as Hong too noted, there was a difference between 368 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 1: an artistic tribute signed by the acolytes name and a 369 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: work where only the original signature was appended. Because you 370 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 1: sell this kind of opinion other people's style with the signature. 371 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: But people, that's my study, Oh that's my copy. What 372 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: you didn't do was claim your own painting was someone 373 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: else's work. That, declared Hong to was a crime. If 374 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: you'll copy other people's work, you sell the mess you've 375 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: got a Bergantinos would deny ever meeting Ann Friedman or 376 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,959 Speaker 1: visiting the Knodler gallery. He said Glypha alone had duped 377 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 1: the Ndler. He claimed Glypha had hired Kwan to turn 378 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: out the forged masters. I was never ambitious, Carlos told 379 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: The New York Times in a follow up article. Glyphra 380 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: was the ambitious one. She had been motivated, he said, 381 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 1: by money and glamor. She loved fancy clothes and fancy parties. 382 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:36,160 Speaker 1: Glyphra has her own version, of course. She says Carlos 383 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,119 Speaker 1: had grown more abusive and given her no choice but 384 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 1: to carry on as the front person in the scheme. 385 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: The fancy parties and the fancy clothes she may have 386 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: bought were part of the job. Without that polished appearance, 387 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: she might never have met him. Andrade and Ann Friedman 388 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,400 Speaker 1: had a Soho art gallery opening in the early nineteen nineties. 389 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 1: One of the son who gave a lecture. She had 390 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: a gallery in the Soho area. She invite us to 391 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: go to her opening, and there is where I met Jimmy, 392 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,400 Speaker 1: and he told me about he works at that gallery. 393 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: And did he say that he might introduce you to 394 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: a freedman? Yes? Why did I may introduce you to Anne? Well? 395 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: I told him that I have access to some pieces 396 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 1: of art, and so he introduced you to Anne. And 397 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 1: then Anne said bring them in. Wow. And that first 398 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: one was the Deep in Corn? Yes? Okay, Now did Pion? 399 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: Did he make that Deep in Corn with your help 400 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: and with Carlos's help? Yes, but it's not that he 401 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 1: just made one and wailah, it's nice, it's good. No, 402 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: he had to make many. He had and we and 403 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: we have to choose the best one. It was not 404 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: us pay in one thou or five? No, you, he 405 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: made many, but they were not good. So many efforts. 406 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: Finally you had a good Deep in Corn and you 407 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: took it in. And when you came in to the noddler, 408 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 1: how did you feel? I mean, wasn't it kind of scary? 409 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 1: Very scary? I? No, you know that you knew the 410 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: painting was fake? Well? Yes, I did so. It was 411 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: very scary, very stressful, but I was pressured by Carlos. 412 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: It would be fair to say here that a couple 413 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 1: is skilled in prevarication, as Rosales and Bergantino's may not 414 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: have been entirely truthful in recounting their story. At the 415 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: same time, for GPRA, at least, the cost of later 416 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: lying to lawnforcement investigators would have been severe. Indeed, if 417 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: discrepancies were discovered, we are inclined to believe that the 418 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: story she's told us is true. But it's worth remembering 419 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,959 Speaker 1: that these are the words of a self confessed con artist. 420 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: Was very smart in targeting, and specifically, I think that 421 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: she had to understand the profile of the victims. She 422 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: was looking for someone who had everything to gain, someone 423 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: who needed to establish her name in the art world, 424 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: someone who was hungry and still needed something that would 425 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: cement her reputation. That's Maria Kannakova Again. Maria is the 426 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: author of The Confidence Game, Why We Fall Forward every Time? 427 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: A New Yorker staff writer and Harvard graduate. Maria devotes 428 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: a whole chapter of her book to the notal or forgeries, 429 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: bringing to bear her years of study of the practice 430 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,720 Speaker 1: of deception and chance. In the relationship between Anne Friedman 431 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: and golf Rosalie, she saw classic signs of the con 432 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 1: artist at work and an all too willing victim. There 433 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: were a few things about Anne that I think really 434 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 1: stood out. She was new at her job, and she 435 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: started as a secretary, So someone who clearly starts with 436 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: a chip on her shoulder in some respects because you 437 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: start from the very bottom. She's female. Most directors of 438 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: prominent art galleries are males. She's not yet established. People 439 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: are kind of looking at her thinking, huh, you know, 440 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: is she going to be able to pull this off? 441 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: And so I'm guessing that made the rounds of the 442 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: art world, looked into different galleries and tried to figure 443 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: out who's going to be my ideal victim. It was 444 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: not happenstance that she approached Anne and that she actually 445 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 1: zeroed in on someone who would be the most susceptible, 446 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 1: who was most likely to believe this because she was 447 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: most motivated to believe this. So thrillingly vibrant were the 448 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 1: works and seemingly real that Anne Freeman let her passions 449 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 1: get the best of her. Of course they were genuine, 450 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: She told art world experts, how could they not be 451 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 1: amongst fellow staffers, experts, and collectors, and was adamant. Soon 452 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: she felt Glyphra and her client Mr x Jr. Would 453 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,479 Speaker 1: trust her enough to share their story with her, and 454 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: she was trustworthy, as Anne fervently told every time she 455 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: came in. In the meantime, Anne had to avoid pushing 456 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: too hard lest Mr X Junior reconsider and take his 457 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: paintings elsewhere. And so through the rest of the nineties, 458 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 1: the shy seller and the eager buyer kept an uneasy balance. 459 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: Two or three masterly paintings that sold a great profit 460 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 1: led to four and five paintings and more none had 461 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 1: any reasonable provenance. Naturally, Anne grew desperate to hear more. 462 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: Perhaps the first clue came over lunch. Lafear and Anne 463 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: had become close enough to celebrate each new painting from 464 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: the Mr. X Junior collection with a high priced Upper 465 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: east Side. Lunch was kind enough to remember Anne's birthday 466 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 1: and gave her a meaningful present each year, an expensive 467 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: pen for example. Anne in turn would ask Kaphia about 468 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,959 Speaker 1: her daughter, who excelled in violin. I saw her as 469 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: a well mannered woman, and later said of Gape at 470 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: a vanity fair. Was it frustrating that I couldn't learn 471 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: more from her? Sure? But I always hoped every time 472 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 1: I was with her that she would reveal more, and 473 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: that I would come closer to knowing more Stone by 474 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 1: overturned stone. She knew that some day I expected to 475 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 1: meet him, and added of fear and Mr X Jr. 476 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: She never said never, She just said I can't now. 477 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 1: Under gentle but persistent pressure, Rosales finally let slip the 478 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: Mr X and his wife, The parents of her client, 479 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 1: had been a wealthy couple from the Philippines. Their fortune 480 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: had come from the sugar business, and it had allowed 481 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: them to make frequent art buying trips to New York. 482 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:31,319 Speaker 1: Often on these Tripsfa recounted they had been guided by 483 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: Alfonso Osorio, an abstract expressionist painter whose own Philippine family, 484 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,840 Speaker 1: like Mr. And Mrs Exes, had grown wealthy from the 485 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 1: sugar trade. As Anne discovered in her research, Osorio was 486 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: close to many abstract expressionist painters, none more so than 487 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: Jackson Pollock. Often in the nineteen fifties, Osorio entertained the 488 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: Hampton's art crowd at his sixty acre Easthampton waterfront compound 489 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:04,880 Speaker 1: called The Creeks. It was at Pollock's urging that Osorio 490 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: bought The Creeks in the first place. As Anne noted 491 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: with growing excitement, Osorio had been known for acting as 492 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 1: an informal art advisor, putting buyers, especially Filipino buyers, in 493 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 1: touch with artists and their dealers. It was possible that 494 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,359 Speaker 1: the paintings may have been bought directly from various New 495 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:29,879 Speaker 1: York artists studios in cash, with no taxes paid. From there, 496 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,479 Speaker 1: they would be smuggled back to the Philippines. That would 497 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,840 Speaker 1: account for the collection's long disappearance and their re emergence 498 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 1: in Cora's hands. Or so said Anne. It was art 499 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 1: world sleuthing, one clue leading to the next. Anne and 500 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: her staffers spent a lot of time poring over the 501 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 1: noted archives, going all the way back to the nineteen thirties. 502 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,320 Speaker 1: It happened to be the best art archive in America. 503 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 1: That was the kind of archive hunting that may have 504 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 1: made Alfonso Ossare a key character in the back story, 505 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:07,359 Speaker 1: at least in Anne Friedman's mind. Later, Anne told me 506 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 1: she had asked Glafira, did the name Osario ring any bells? 507 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,800 Speaker 1: With Mr X Jr. Promised to ask her mysterious client. 508 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:26,839 Speaker 1: We'll be back after this sure enough. With as next 509 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 1: visit came fascinating news. As hunch was right. According to 510 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: Mr X Jr. His art buying parents had indeed dealt 511 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 1: with Alfonso Osoriosorio fit perfectly into the back story. Glafira 512 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:48,360 Speaker 1: and Anne were now embroidering together. Mr. And Mrs X 513 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:52,319 Speaker 1: had purportedly died by the time Glafira Rosale's paid her 514 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 1: first visit to the Ndler. So had Alfonso Osorio, whose 515 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 1: ashes upon death were scattered over the grounds of the creeks. 516 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 1: Was it mere coincidence that artists, dealers, and go betweens 517 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 1: had a way of dying shortly before the burgn Tino's 518 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 1: team started tweaking their legacies as they sifted through the archives, 519 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 1: and and her staffers also searched for photographs taken in 520 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:27,840 Speaker 1: the studios of mid century artists. Perhaps the paintings in 521 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 1: the backgrounds of those photographs might offer clues, and was 522 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:37,240 Speaker 1: so into connoisseurship, improving that something existed because we found 523 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:41,439 Speaker 1: some archival letter from Robert Motherwell, one former staffer says, 524 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 1: by way of example, in fact, they never found any 525 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 1: direct evidence ever, and was very sure of herself. The 526 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 1: staffer added, if she believed, and she could make others believe, well, 527 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: you know the old saying, you can't cheat an honest man. 528 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,840 Speaker 1: You know that what the story is, that's nobler artist 529 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 1: Donald Supton. She certainly should have known the fact that 530 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 1: she didn't know where they came from was a tip off, 531 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 1: because any reputable dealer would not deal with that. And 532 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 1: then the other part of it is that if she 533 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,920 Speaker 1: thought they were real, she thought that she was getting 534 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: them from this woman at a cheap price. So basically 535 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,400 Speaker 1: she thought she was conning the woman. So you know 536 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,360 Speaker 1: what I'm saying, you can't shet an honest man. You know, 537 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 1: the whole nature of a con person is to make 538 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,880 Speaker 1: you seem like you can't trust them, right, So that 539 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 1: she her idea was to make them feel like, you know, 540 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: they're very lucky to know someone like you who's trustworthy, 541 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 1: whereas they may not be, and you know, so and 542 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,840 Speaker 1: so forth. So basically Anne was conning and thought she 543 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: was conningfa and in fact Lifa was conning her for 544 00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 1: Golfia and Anne they was soon caused for another celebratory punch. 545 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 1: It was the day that first brought in a Jackson pollock. 546 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,960 Speaker 1: It was a classic drip painting, unusually small, but a 547 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,480 Speaker 1: pollock it was, or so it seemed to be Freedman 548 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 1: and her husband, Robert, decided to buy it themselves for 549 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,360 Speaker 1: the relatively modest price of two hundred and eighty thousand dollars. 550 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: In buying it together, Anne and her husband may have 551 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 1: hoped to establish themselves as pollock dealers. Interestingly, Anne and 552 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 1: Robert Friedman may also have chosen to keep the small 553 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 1: pollock for themselves because of how it was signed. One day, 554 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: while I was working on my story for Vanity Fair, 555 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 1: Anne invited me up for a tour of her apartment. 556 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,960 Speaker 1: On the walls hung a small Jackson pollock that was 557 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,560 Speaker 1: about the size of a magazine cover. Oddly, its signature 558 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:51,279 Speaker 1: was misspelled as p O L l O K. The 559 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 1: sea was missing. It would remain in the Freedman's personal 560 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:59,400 Speaker 1: collection all through the saga that ensued. The curious misspelling 561 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,440 Speaker 1: of pollock would come up later and even be disputed 562 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 1: by Anne, written off as a slip of the pen. 563 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 1: Maria Kannakova recalls this debacle. She started describing how, oh, well, 564 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 1: probably you know the pen skipped or this or that. 565 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:18,200 Speaker 1: She made up excuses for it. Rather than say, okay, 566 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,239 Speaker 1: but this is a problem, she said, See, it's definitely 567 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 1: not a fake because a fake Pollock would never have 568 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 1: misspelled the name Pollock, and listening to her say that 569 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 1: when I talked to her was just mind boggling. To 570 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:37,880 Speaker 1: Anne's pride and delight, Lafia brought her a second, larger Pollock, 571 00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:44,240 Speaker 1: a greenish drip style painting called untitled nine. The painting 572 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,720 Speaker 1: was twelve by eighteen inches. It was small for a Pollock, 573 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:51,240 Speaker 1: but impressive looking all the same. This time the artist's 574 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:53,799 Speaker 1: name was spelled correctly. It was the first of at 575 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:59,760 Speaker 1: least four Pollocks that would pass through the Ndler, despite 576 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,919 Speaker 1: his refusal to furnish any more personal details, and could 577 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 1: hardly complain about how her paintings were selling in the 578 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 1: New Millennium. One couple, Murray and cab Bring, bought a 579 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,360 Speaker 1: Deep and Corn for ninety four thousand dollars. Richard Gilson 580 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,239 Speaker 1: bought a Deep and Corn for one hundred forty eight 581 00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:22,759 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. The Michelle Rosenfeld Gallery bought a Rothko for 582 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,880 Speaker 1: a three hundred twenty five thousand dollars. The Kemper Museum 583 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:30,400 Speaker 1: bought a Franz Climb for four hundred seventy five thousand 584 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,800 Speaker 1: dollars and a Rothko for six hundred fifteen thousand dollars. 585 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:39,600 Speaker 1: Soon after, Hughes and Schilla Podocker bought a Franz climb 586 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 1: themselves for five hundred thirty five thousand dollars. Jack and 587 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,360 Speaker 1: fran Levy paid seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars for 588 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 1: a Clifford, still, five hundred and sixty thousand for a 589 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,800 Speaker 1: Franz Climb, and six hundred fifteen thousand dollars for a Rothko. 590 00:41:55,680 --> 00:42:00,319 Speaker 1: The Leavis would eventually eclipse all other individual purchases to date, 591 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,280 Speaker 1: acquiring a Jackson Pollock from the Knodler Gallery for two 592 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:12,760 Speaker 1: million dollars. For some reason, remained willing to accept modest 593 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:16,319 Speaker 1: prices from the Ndler. These are prices far lower than 594 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,919 Speaker 1: the works would have earned her at auction or even 595 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 1: through other dealers. Was a just too shy to press 596 00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,600 Speaker 1: Anne for more? Or was Anne just that good of 597 00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:30,839 Speaker 1: a negotiator? Perhaps the latter, since is Anne later put 598 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,840 Speaker 1: it with pride quote, I never paid Gla a commission. 599 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:38,719 Speaker 1: I just gave her the net price end quote, which 600 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:40,840 Speaker 1: was to say that the two women agreed on a 601 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,279 Speaker 1: flat fee, and GPA just took what she got and 602 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,480 Speaker 1: then set whatever retail price she liked and sold them 603 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 1: to the buyer. That there was not percentage. To me, 604 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:54,120 Speaker 1: there was a payment. Carlos told me asked her for 605 00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:56,960 Speaker 1: this much. I got that much. I don't know how 606 00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:00,680 Speaker 1: much she got and never told Gilfia what the retail 607 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:04,719 Speaker 1: price would be. Anything over that flat fee was Ndlers 608 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,719 Speaker 1: to keep with Anne pocketing whatever commission she chose to take. 609 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:14,280 Speaker 1: E A. Carmine, an expert in both Pollock and Rothko, 610 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 1: who had previously declared as first Rothko to be real, 611 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:23,000 Speaker 1: weighed in again on the Knodlers new Pollock. Once again, 612 00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:27,840 Speaker 1: he concluded the painting was real. As experts go, Carmine 613 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,480 Speaker 1: was the genuine article. He had served as the National 614 00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:35,520 Speaker 1: Galleries founding curator of Contemporary Art in Washington, d C. 615 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:40,040 Speaker 1: So when Carmine determined the Pollock was legitimate, it carried 616 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,560 Speaker 1: a lot of weight. It wasn't the same as true provenance, 617 00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:48,160 Speaker 1: but it was a good start. Later other experts would 618 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,640 Speaker 1: note that Carmine had rendered that judgment only after signing 619 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:55,319 Speaker 1: on as a paid consultant to the Knodler Gallery. If 620 00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,960 Speaker 1: she didn't officially you get a contract and hire him, 621 00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,000 Speaker 1: she and it in the money. You know what I mean? 622 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:07,240 Speaker 1: And also she used stories, and you know she said, 623 00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:11,840 Speaker 1: you know, e A. Carmine approved. This doesn't mean he 624 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:18,200 Speaker 1: proved it. One Nodler staffer recall just how vital a 625 00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:23,080 Speaker 1: role Carmine was now playing in legitimizing works from Fa rosales. 626 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,840 Speaker 1: One time we had a check going out to e. A. Carmine, 627 00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:30,000 Speaker 1: the staffer recall, only the check hadn't been cut yet, 628 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:34,840 Speaker 1: and Anne was furious. He wrote appraisals that helped sell work, 629 00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:38,839 Speaker 1: The colleague recalls and saying, he really just got us 630 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:40,719 Speaker 1: out of a jam. We need to get him a 631 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:45,239 Speaker 1: check right away. Jack Levy, co chairman of Mergers and 632 00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:49,240 Speaker 1: Acquisitions at Goldman Sachs, bought his two million dollar poblic 633 00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,920 Speaker 1: in late two thousand one. The Levies had already bought 634 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,480 Speaker 1: three other mid century works from Ndler that would turn 635 00:44:56,520 --> 00:45:02,480 Speaker 1: out to be fake. With that per of Untitled ninety nine, 636 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:06,240 Speaker 1: they were in for over four point three million dollars. 637 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,160 Speaker 1: Levy was an eager collector, but a careful one too. 638 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 1: Before taking possession of his Pollock, he demanded it be 639 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:19,960 Speaker 1: vetted by the International Foundation for Art Research or i FAR. 640 00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:24,080 Speaker 1: If I FAR approved the work, he would happily accept 641 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,000 Speaker 1: the sale. If not, no Oldler would have to take 642 00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:30,680 Speaker 1: the painting back and return two million dollars to the leads, 643 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:36,040 Speaker 1: and readily agreed. Later, she said she had no doubt 644 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:40,720 Speaker 1: the painting was real. The cover letter was certainly seen 645 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,960 Speaker 1: by Jack Levy. We said we cannot accept the work 646 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:50,360 Speaker 1: as a work by Jackson Pollock. More from Sharon Flesher, 647 00:45:50,840 --> 00:46:06,720 Speaker 1: executive director of I Far next time on Art Fraud. 648 00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:21,880 Speaker 1: Art Fraud is brought to you by I Heart Radio 649 00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:26,520 Speaker 1: and Cavalry Audio. Our executive producers are Matt del Piano, 650 00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:32,680 Speaker 1: Keegan Rosenberger, Andy Turner, myself, and Michael Shnayerson. Special thanks 651 00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:37,560 Speaker 1: to composer Danielle Ava Schwab. The classical selections in this 652 00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,880 Speaker 1: week's episode are from her new album Out of the Tunnel, 653 00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:45,360 Speaker 1: available now. We're produced by Brandon Morgan and Zach McNeice. 654 00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:50,160 Speaker 1: Zach also edited and mixed this episode. Lindsay Hoffman is 655 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,880 Speaker 1: our managing producer. Our writer is Michael Schneerson.