WEBVTT - Libby Cantrill Discusses Fixed Income and Equities 0:00:02.240 --> 0:00:06.800 This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:12.320 This week on the podcast, I have an extra special guest. 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:15.239 Her name is Luby Cantrell, and she is the head 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:19.800 of Public Policy, Affairs and Government Affairs at PIMCO, where 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:24.160 she not only works lobbying to make sure Pimco's voice 0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:29.000 is represented in d C but is integrated very closely 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:34.000 with the Investment Committee, explaining what is coming down the 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:37.960 road from Congress in d c UH and what various 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:42.000 events are going to do that could very well impact 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:47.239 bond or stock holdings. And and that's a really unique 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:52.279 position in the world of finance. PIMCO literally created this 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:56.440 role just for her and she's been thriving uh doing this. 0:00:56.880 --> 0:01:01.200 If you are at all interested in government affairs, public 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:05.640 policy and how that intersects with finance and Wall Street, 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:10.040 then you're gonna find this to be an absolutely fascinating conversation. So, 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:15.039 with no further ado, my chat with Pimco's Libby Cantrell. 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:22.520 I'm Barry Ritults. You're listening to Masters in Business on 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:26.080 Bloomberg Radio. My special guest today is Libby Cantrell. She 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:30.120 is head of Public Policy at PIMCO, the investing giant, 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:34.320 managing a trillion plus dollars in fixed income and equities. 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:38.679 She coordinates the firm's response to policy issues and analyzes 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:43.120 political events for the firm's investment committee. She has an 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:45.840 NBA out of Harvard Undergraduate. She was at Brown. She 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:49.960 is also a c f A charterholder. Libby Cantrell, Welcome 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:53.120 to Bloomberg. Thanks for having so let's talk a little 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:56.520 bit about the early days of your career. You started 0:01:56.520 --> 0:02:01.040 as an investment banking analyst in two thousand, pretty much 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:04.200 as the bubble was blowing up. What was it like 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:07.240 to begin your career in that environment. Yeah, I mean 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:09.280 it was. It was certainly an interesting time. And not 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:11.239 only did was I investment banking, but I was actually 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:14.400 in the technology corporate finance department of investment banking. So 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:19.000 I was right. I was had a front row seat 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:21.799 in some ways, um to to the run up to 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:24.120 the bubble and then of course the bubble bursting. I 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:25.920 mean it was, you know, it was interesting because I 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:28.680 think in some ways, looking back on it, it just, um, 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:32.399 I think it reinforced this idea of the markets are cyclical. 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:35.320 Um that you know that that that asset. You know, 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:37.960 prices go up, and if they go up to a 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:41.639 point where that they seem completely disconnected to their fundamentals, 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:44.360 then they're probably probably there's probably a problem. Um. So 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:47.400 you know, going back, I I didn't have a sort 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:51.080 of traditional business background in college. I I majored in 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:54.840 in math and economics UM at Brown. There was no 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:58.480 pre business. Economics is pretty much what you need if 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:01.160 you're gonna find it, but it's different, right, I mean, 0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:03.400 I've never taken an accounting course. But but something that 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:05.560 I did, I think that that has stayed with me 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:08.800 is that when I entered the technology um group at 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:12.679 Morgan Stanley, I was questioning how we were valuing these 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:15.400 these companies when not only did they not have profits, 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:17.880 but they hardly had any sales. And of course a 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:19.519 lot of people who were you know, much more senior 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:22.240 to me and much more experienced and I think much wiser, 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:24.680 said oh, you know, Libby, you'll you'll learn, you know, 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:27.079 you just you know, you're get your feet wet, and yeah, 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:30.160 inter of corporate finance. UM. So you know, I that 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:32.880 that that that's held to me this day, because you know, 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:36.400 common sense actually does typically prevail. So what all of 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:39.800 these things did unravel. I think in some ways to 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:43.840 my very kind of um, you know, nassan neophyte, uh 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:46.240 you know point of view, it wasn't necessarily that surprised. 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:49.720 So revenues and profits, that's old school. We're about eyeballs 0:03:49.880 --> 0:03:53.040 and the cash flow statements. What are you even talking about? Right? 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:56.360 I literally had a conversation yesterday with a venture capitalist 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:59.440 who said, let's be honest, if we're looking at discounted 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:02.720 cash flow was on these startups, They're all made up numbers. 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:05.480 How could you even begin to put a put a 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:08.200 figure evaluation on that? Yeah, exactly. And I think here 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:11.120 even in the run up on the housing um side 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:13.080 as well, I was in business school and I remember 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:15.720 being in a class and my you know, my, my 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:19.479 business school colleagues were just pounding the table that, you know, 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:21.760 everybody should be able to own a house, and it 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:24.440 doesn't matter what their income was, and doesn't matter exactly. 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:26.760 We're three, um, everybody should be able to get alone. 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:28.960 And you know, again, I just didn't pass the smell test. 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:31.400 And I think my experience at Morgan Stanley just sort 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:33.920 of reinforced that the importance of common sense and the 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:36.919 smell test. My favorite scene in the Big Short in 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:40.679 the film is the Steve Carell character is literally speaking 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:44.640 to a stripper about a house and he says, wait, 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:46.599 you have a house. She goes, no, I have six. 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:49.599 And that's like the light bulb goes off. This is 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:53.280 all going to collapse, right exactly, Just just hilarious. So, 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:55.919 so in two thousand three, you go to Washington, you 0:04:56.040 --> 0:05:01.040 work for a congressman, right, congresswoman congresswoman congress per yes, um, 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:05.839 and you're you're doing legislative work, You're you're doing policy analysis. 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:11.000 How do you make the transition from that back to finance? 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:13.920 Was that a natural progression or was a little bit hmm. 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:17.120 Let's see if we can we can mix these two interests. Yeah. So, 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:18.760 you know, when I was at SO, I did a 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:22.000 third year investment banking Morgan Stanley. I was in Financial Sponsors, 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:24.680 so sort of the private equity group, and all when 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:27.400 all my friends were graduating from the analyst program, they 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:30.880 were all going into private equity programs UM, TPG and Apollo, 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:33.840 and I just felt, you know, as much as I 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:36.360 liked my experience in investment banking, and in some ways, 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:39.280 so many of the things that I applied today I 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:43.160 learned from that experience. UM, I just was looking for 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:47.480 something more. And before I even went to college, I 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:50.479 had worked as a volunteer for a woman at the 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:53.880 time who was in the Colorado State legislature where I'm from. 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:57.760 And um, I had sort of always had this itch 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:01.600 about going to Washington, and so felt like it was 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:04.920 it was scary in a lot of ways because as 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:07.440 again all my friends and investment banking and Morgan Stanley 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:09.440 were going to these, you know, very these premiere private 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:12.159 equity firms, and I was thinking of taking this really 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:16.120 significant pay cut to do something that was pretty risky. Um. 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:18.160 But this woman who had worked for in Colorado had 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:21.279 later gotten elected to Congress, and so that I worked 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:23.599 for her as a legislative a And I really do 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:25.680 view that as one of the inflection points in my 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:31.920 career as something that felt really uncomfortable and really scary, 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:35.360 but um, it was in retrospect, the best decision. And 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:38.279 would you recommend to inform you know, so much of 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:41.160 what I'm doing today? Would you recommend people go outside 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:44.080 of their comfort zone and do stuff that's scary as 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:47.440 a way to develop their career, because it sounds like 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:49.320 it worked out very well for you. Yeah, it's you know, 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:51.800 it's so tree right. Um, kind of go, you know, 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:55.280 do something that's that that's pushes you, that's uncomfortable. But 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:58.520 a business school one of my professors gave her a 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:01.640 kind of at HARV they had these last speeches of 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:05.359 every semester, and she said, you know, go towards the 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:08.479 discomfort in your career. So when somebody asks you to 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:12.720 do something that feels really uncomfortable, uh and makes you 0:07:12.960 --> 0:07:16.720 sort of nauseous, Um, you know, do that because that 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:19.320 means that you're going to to learn and even if 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:22.040 you fail, you're learning through failure. And so you know, 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:24.280 I think this going to Washington was even maybe a 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:27.120 bigger example of that, um because but you know, you're 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:30.080 in your twenties and I felt like, you know, looking 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:32.360 back again, it was such a wise decision, but it 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:34.160 was it did feel really scared. I don't I don't 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:37.480 think that's tried. I think people are afraid of that 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:40.880 uncomfort zone. That just I'm not familiar with this. I 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:44.040 don't know this, and I wish when I was younger, 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:48.160 I was more willing to try stuff that really frightened me. 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:50.840 It's it's so easy to say, I really don't have 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:52.760 any expertise in that I'm gonna stick to my knitting 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:55.480 right now exactly. And I think, um, you know, again, 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:57.360 I see a lot of my friends who went right 0:07:57.440 --> 0:08:01.000 from investment banking to private equity to business cool, and 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:03.160 then they kind of had a reckoning in their career, 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:06.960 right because they hadn't necessarily scratched those itches that were 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:09.560 maybe a little bit more unconventional, a little bit scarier, 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:11.520 and you have less to lose in your twenties, right 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:14.800 and have a family. Um, yeah, I had, I had 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:16.680 it right, and I had made enough money and were 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:19.200 instantly to you know, have some savings because it was 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:22.000 a really dramatic pay cut. Um. But again, money had 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:24.480 never really been sort of the big focus in my life. 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:26.480 It was doing to me again sounds so the cheesy, 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:29.600 but doing something that fulfilled me and taking that step 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:32.520 really kind of satisfied a lot a lot of what 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:35.920 I was looking for. Take us through the typical day 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:38.040 in the life of the head of public policy at 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:41.720 Bondiant PIMCOH Yeah, I mean I think that that title 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:44.920 is vague enough, um that it because sort of encapsulates 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:47.480 you know, UM a lot of what I do and 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:49.720 allows it to be really dynamic, which it is. So 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:52.880 the way I think about the position and it's UM. 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:57.480 The position didn't exist before before I took it over, 0:08:57.920 --> 0:08:59.959 and so in some ways that's given me a lot 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:02.440 of flexibility and the firm a lot of flexibility in 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:05.160 order to sort of design it UM in the way 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:07.880 that they know that they see fit and that UM 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:09.920 is the most sort of beneficial from a client and 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:13.160 investment perspective. So, you know, I view myself as wearing 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:14.880 a couple of different hats in that in that role, 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:18.120 one is this sort of traditional government affairs role, which 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:21.600 is advocating on behalf of our clients and our business 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:25.520 UM about policies in Washington, or you know, playing defense 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:27.959 in some ways depending on the administration and what's going 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:29.880 on in d in d C. So one is more 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:33.200 of a traditional government affairs role UM. The other hat, though, 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:36.520 that I think is more unique in this position, is 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:40.079 that I'm pretty integrated into the investment process, so helping 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:43.160 our investment committee sort of think about what's going on 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:46.440 in Washington and how that may inform our positioning and 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:50.560 our macro outlook UM and then sort of the last, uh, 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:54.320 sort of function that I serve is you're talking to 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:58.439 clients about how we're thinking about Washington, how we're looking 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:02.080 at things, and as you might imagine, UM, on any 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:04.920 given day, you know, there's more demands in one of 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:07.600 those sort of parts of the function than others. So 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:10.520 sometimes our clients are really you know, wondering, Um, I 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:13.960 got lots of questions about tariffs or about tax or 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:17.240 what have you. Other. Um. Other times I'm again, we're 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:20.360 playing more active in Washington from a from a traditional 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:23.760 government affairs. So so let's delve into your work with 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:26.840 the Investment Committee, because I'm kind of fascinated about that. 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:31.560 We have just we're recording this in early April. We've 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:35.480 just had a run of I can't even use the 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:39.120 word in sanity anymore. We need different adjectives. But but 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:41.920 it's been the trade war, and it's been the negotiations 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:45.000 with North Korea, and just this week we had the 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:49.320 FBI kicked the doors down to the President's attorney's office 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:53.320 hotel at home, and it's just like there's no escaping 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:56.800 the news. It's it's brutal. Now you go sit down 0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:00.800 with the Investment Committee is the discussion more from the 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:06.200 perspective of here's the macro issue of how these tariffs 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:10.040 will impact these sectors, or is it a broader this 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:13.800 is what sentiment looks like in response to these headlines, 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:16.160 or is it not limited to any of the above. Well, 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:17.719 I think it's I think in some ways it's all 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:20.079 of the all of the above, And I agree with you. 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:22.480 It's just been relentless, right, I mean, the news cycle 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:24.880 over the last two years has been just you just 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:28.480 cannot escape it. Um, you know one but that one 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:30.800 guy in Ohio who threw all his TV's out and 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:34.120 hasn't written anything other than him. For the rest of us, 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:36.680 it's just been especial if you're you know, if you're 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:38.199 if you have to follow the news as part of 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:39.760 your job. I mean, of course from a policy from 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:42.560 a walk and nerd position, Um that I kind of 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:45.040 think about myself as a policy nerd. It's fascinating, right, 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:48.640 because this is a really dynamic, um, you know, really 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:52.280 in some ways unpredictable policymaking environment. We can speak for 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:56.480 an hour about the effect of the pass through tax 0:11:56.559 --> 0:12:00.480 cut legislation of LLC's like you want to lank out 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:02.600 it's been three hours. I don't know, I don't know 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:04.840 if your if your listeners are going to appreciate that, 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:07.600 but but no so so, but but to serve to 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:10.319 your to your question about how our Investment Committee thinks 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:12.240 about this, well, first of all, and I would say 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:14.320 that that politics and policy have always been a big 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:17.480 part of what we've considered, at least it's been one 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:20.880 of the inputs to our investment process. Um, given the 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:23.240 fact that you're you began as a fixed income shop 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:26.320 and what the Feddle Reserve did and response to inflation 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:28.800 has to be exactly right. So so the FED response 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:31.280 to inflation and growth, and what is a big driver 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:33.720 of growth, Well, it's the fiscal part, right, of course, 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:35.920 it's other you know, other parts of the economy, but 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:38.480 that that g and the g d P equation is 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:42.200 pretty pretty important, the gross part, the gross right, yeah, 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:45.280 the government part, thank you very Do we need to 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:50.320 walk through the equation maybe, um, but but but so anyway, so, 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:53.679 so it's always been something that has been a big consideration. 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:56.000 We've you know, we've talked about it, we've thought about it, 0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:59.520 but clearly over really since the financial crisis, when the 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:02.280 inner set action of politics and policy and markets have 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:04.760 been more acute. I mean, going back to Tarp, going 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:07.680 back to Dodd Frank Um and then of course the 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:09.679 you know, the housing bail out, the bank's bail out, 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:11.440 all of this, you know, you know, what have you 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:14.800 And then fast forward to today when all of these 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:17.120 you know, what's going on Washington really is driving markets. 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:20.200 Um So, you know, I think we have the luxury 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:23.400 in many ways of being a long term investor. Right 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:27.680 We're a fiduciary for millions of retirees, for thousands of 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:30.719 pension plans and what have you. So we really are 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:33.360 not necessarily reacting to the news of the day so much. 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:38.400 We are trying to construct a longer term outlook about 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:40.560 you know, where we should be, um as it relates 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:44.640 to say, interest rates or credit or emerging markets, and 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:47.200 what's going on Washington drives you know, all of those 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:50.720 things arguably these days, um so so. So take trade, 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:53.560 you know something. Trade has been something I've been talking 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:56.640 about honestly at nauseum to our Investment Committee really since 0:13:56.720 --> 0:14:00.640 right after the election, because I think people under estimated 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:03.760 how sincere President Trump felt feels about trade, and I 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:06.000 really and you know, which is stunning to me because 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:10.160 every speech he gave during the campaign was Hey, NAFTA's 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:13.520 I'm quoting the president. NAFTA is a terrible deal. I 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:16.000 don't believe t p P is working for us. We 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:17.839 need to change these rules and if no one is 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:21.160 going to treat us fairly, we're going to implement tariffs. 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:23.440 Every time people say they're surprised, it's like, were you 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:26.080 not listening to any of the exactly And you even 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:28.400 go back to the tape when he did interviews back 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:31.640 in the nineteen eighties and he was talking about Japan 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:35.360 cleaning our clocks on trade, about NAFTA, about China ascension 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:37.720 to the w t O. And I don't think a 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:41.160 lot of public policy issues animated him before he became 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:43.920 the president, but this was one of them. And I 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:47.080 really think he sincerely believes that we're getting short changed 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:50.240 on these trade agreements, and he wants directively it's been 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:52.480 you know, he's pretty all over the place on so 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.040 many subjects. If you're going to give him credit for 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:58.960 being consistent on anything, this goes back decades. There was 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:01.400 an O five into of view with someone, maybe it 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:04.280 was Oprah, where he's talking about We're not being treated 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:06.880 fail ay boy other countries and our leaders are ignoring it. 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:09.080 I think that was back in the nineties. Actually, I 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:11.360 think there are several probably several interviews, but there's one 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:14.200 interview I think from seven or something with Oprah or 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:16.680 He's talking about your pain totally that I have the 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:19.600 exact same feeling that you do when people say, well, 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:22.720 these taffs are a shock. Are really He's been pounding 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:25.160 the table about this for not that you have to 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:27.720 agree with the tariffs, but you shouldn't be certain to 0:15:27.880 --> 0:15:30.120 be surprised, right and so and you know, and and 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:32.280 and you know, you go back to seen and I 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:34.440 think people thought, Okay, well he hadn't done anything in 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:36.600 twenty seventeen on trade, and I would be I mean, 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:38.920 not pedantic, but I would I would take issue with 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:41.600 that as well, because if you actually look at what 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:45.040 he was doing and what his trade representative, Bob Leitchheiser 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:47.640 was doing, what Ross was doing at Commerce, they were 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:50.160 laying the foundation for these tariffs. So you know, not 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:52.800 to not to bor everybody, but before you can just 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:55.760 pursue tariffs, you have to go through this investigation process 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:58.680 and that's you know, several took in this case almost 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:01.680 a year to do so on stealing aluminum that was 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:05.080 initiated back in April seventeen, and then of course they 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:07.600 just made the decision most more recently on on how 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:10.840 to um, on how to proceed. But this this felt 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:13.240 pretty clear that this was these were all these things 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:15.840 were coming UM. And I think to the credit of 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:18.760 our folks at PIMCO, you know, they weren't necessarily surprised 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:22.960 that that that that this has happened. UM. But of course, 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:25.960 you know, this is this is determining how markets are reacting. 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:28.400 So it's something that we've been talking more recently about. 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:33.120 Let's talk a little bit about the changing role of 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:36.120 women on Wall Street, and I have to go back 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:40.360 to a quote from Michelle Meyer. She's UM one of 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:44.840 the senior economists at Bank America Merrill Lynch, and she 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:49.080 made a specific point of saying when she was coming up, 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:52.560 there were very few women role models for her to 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:56.400 look up to and emulate as an analyst slash economist. 0:16:56.920 --> 0:17:00.440 But it's beginning to change. What are your perspective on 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:04.960 that topic. I think it, I mean, it's changing, but 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:08.240 it's at a glacial pace. Honestly, I think especially on 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:10.760 the cell side and investment banks. If I if I 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:14.320 look back to when I entered finance back at two thousand, 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:17.879 you know, but almost half of my analysts class were women, UM, 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:21.399 which was UM, I think really notable at the time. 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:24.480 I just don't think, you know what what what's been 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:29.119 UM in some ways discouraging is that over time there 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:31.920 have been many women who have dropped out of finance. UM. 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:35.080 So it's not necessarily that we're not starting at the 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:39.240 right place. It's really a question of retaining them and 0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:43.280 developing them and promoting them and all of those things. UM. 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:47.240 But but to Michelle's point, it's certainly I think the 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:52.480 the landscape and is looking different, but also the commitment 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:55.680 among senior leaders. I think that UM, you know, our folks, 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:59.520 certainly at PIMCO, UH, you know, from the CEO down, 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:04.119 are really committed to increasing diversity. And it's not just 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:08.159 lip service. It's actually UM making sure that you know, 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:12.040 every interview slate has UM some woman on it, UM 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:15.120 at the very least one, UM, if not more. UM. 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:18.960 It's making sure that when we're looking at promotion classes 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:21.720 that they're balanced. UM. It's making sure that we are 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:26.400 looking two women for um, you know, different opportunities instead 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:28.879 of just instead of maybe just just sort of the 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:31.800 conventional man. So and I think we're really trying to 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:35.320 make a difference. Um, but it's again, it's been I 0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:37.680 think it's been glacial. I just look of almost the 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:41.840 last twenty years in finance. I've been involved in financial services, 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:44.240 and we haven't made as much progress as we really 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:46.119 need to. But I do think it's I do think 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:48.680 it's changing. So So, I had a debate not too 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:52.359 long ago with a friend from outside of the industry saying, so, 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:55.240 when is when is Wall Street having it's meat too movement? 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:58.679 And my response was, Hey, you know, things were really 0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:00.879 terrible in the eighties, and I think it had it 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:06.440 in and from my perspective, trading deaths were horrific, and 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:11.359 the lack of general respectful women in that period was awful. 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:13.439 But you had a bunch of litigation in the boom 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:15.920 boom room and all that crazy stuff. And I think 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:19.320 Wall Street has been woke long before the rest of 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:24.840 the country did. Plus compliance plus litigation, it seems Wall Street, 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:28.639 at least in my career, has been ahead of other 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:33.119 fields in terms of recognizing, hey, this is a problem. 0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:36.280 We better do something about it. Not that it's remotely fixed, 0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:38.679 but there's some awareness. Is that a fair Yeah? I 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:42.000 think that's I think that's fair. Um. However, if you 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:45.680 look at the composition of management teams across Wall Street 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:48.240 and the buy side, you don't necessarily see as many 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:51.199 women as you want to. So I think, wow, we 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:55.919 may not have, um, the more draconian severe harassment issues 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:58.159 that I think some of these other industries had that 0:19:58.200 --> 0:20:01.760 have been unearthed recently, we still do have a real 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:04.920 development problem among women and retention problem. And so that's 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:06.960 the key is how do we make sure we can 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:09.040 we can get women in the door. You know, you 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:10.840 can get women in the door at twenty two because 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:12.560 they want to be an investment banking programs and they 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:14.880 want to go to the buy side. Um, but how 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:16.840 do we make sure that we're getting them to the 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:19.760 next step? And I think some of it is, um, 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:22.080 you know this, Some of it is the women do 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:26.439 have to have children biologically, right, So making sure that 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:29.160 we're supporting women during that period of time and not 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:31.960 just making sure that they have maternity leave, but making 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:34.480 sure that when they come back that they're supported, making 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:36.680 sure that they don't necessarily miss out on a promotion 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:39.520 or opportunity when they're out on leave or when they're 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:42.960 really just in um the fast lane of parenting. I 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:45.160 think that And and you know, the the interesting thing 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:48.119 that PIMCO is that we're seeing these demands both from 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:49.800 women but also from men. I mean, we a lot 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:53.600 of men in our New York office especially have working wives, 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:55.800 and so you know, they want to make sure that 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:59.640 they have parental leave, that they have some flexibility, um, 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:01.320