1 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: This week on the podcast, I have an extra special guest. 3 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,239 Speaker 1: Her name is Luby Cantrell, and she is the head 4 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 1: of Public Policy, Affairs and Government Affairs at PIMCO, where 5 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: she not only works lobbying to make sure Pimco's voice 6 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: is represented in d C but is integrated very closely 7 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: with the Investment Committee, explaining what is coming down the 8 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: road from Congress in d c UH and what various 9 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: events are going to do that could very well impact 10 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:47,239 Speaker 1: bond or stock holdings. And and that's a really unique 11 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:52,279 Speaker 1: position in the world of finance. PIMCO literally created this 12 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: role just for her and she's been thriving uh doing this. 13 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: If you are at all interested in government affairs, public 14 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: policy and how that intersects with finance and Wall Street, 15 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: then you're gonna find this to be an absolutely fascinating conversation. So, 16 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 1: with no further ado, my chat with Pimco's Libby Cantrell. 17 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: I'm Barry Ritults. You're listening to Masters in Business on 18 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio. My special guest today is Libby Cantrell. She 19 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: is head of Public Policy at PIMCO, the investing giant, 20 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:34,320 Speaker 1: managing a trillion plus dollars in fixed income and equities. 21 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: She coordinates the firm's response to policy issues and analyzes 22 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 1: political events for the firm's investment committee. She has an 23 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: NBA out of Harvard Undergraduate. She was at Brown. She 24 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: is also a c f A charterholder. Libby Cantrell, Welcome 25 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: to Bloomberg. Thanks for having so let's talk a little 26 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: bit about the early days of your career. You started 27 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: as an investment banking analyst in two thousand, pretty much 28 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: as the bubble was blowing up. What was it like 29 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: to begin your career in that environment. Yeah, I mean 30 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: it was. It was certainly an interesting time. And not 31 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:11,239 Speaker 1: only did was I investment banking, but I was actually 32 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: in the technology corporate finance department of investment banking. So 33 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: I was right. I was had a front row seat 34 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:21,799 Speaker 1: in some ways, um to to the run up to 35 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: the bubble and then of course the bubble bursting. I 36 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 1: mean it was, you know, it was interesting because I 37 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: think in some ways, looking back on it, it just, um, 38 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,399 Speaker 1: I think it reinforced this idea of the markets are cyclical. 39 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: Um that you know that that that asset. You know, 40 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: prices go up, and if they go up to a 41 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 1: point where that they seem completely disconnected to their fundamentals, 42 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 1: then they're probably probably there's probably a problem. Um. So 43 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: you know, going back, I I didn't have a sort 44 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 1: of traditional business background in college. I I majored in 45 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: in math and economics UM at Brown. There was no 46 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: pre business. Economics is pretty much what you need if 47 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: you're gonna find it, but it's different, right, I mean, 48 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: I've never taken an accounting course. But but something that 49 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: I did, I think that that has stayed with me 50 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 1: is that when I entered the technology um group at 51 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,679 Speaker 1: Morgan Stanley, I was questioning how we were valuing these 52 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: these companies when not only did they not have profits, 53 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: but they hardly had any sales. And of course a 54 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:19,519 Speaker 1: lot of people who were you know, much more senior 55 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: to me and much more experienced and I think much wiser, 56 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 1: said oh, you know, Libby, you'll you'll learn, you know, 57 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,079 Speaker 1: you just you know, you're get your feet wet, and yeah, 58 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: inter of corporate finance. UM. So you know, I that 59 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: that that that's held to me this day, because you know, 60 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: common sense actually does typically prevail. So what all of 61 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: these things did unravel. I think in some ways to 62 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: my very kind of um, you know, nassan neophyte, uh 63 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: you know point of view, it wasn't necessarily that surprised. 64 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: So revenues and profits, that's old school. We're about eyeballs 65 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: and the cash flow statements. What are you even talking about? Right? 66 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: I literally had a conversation yesterday with a venture capitalist 67 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: who said, let's be honest, if we're looking at discounted 68 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: cash flow was on these startups, They're all made up numbers. 69 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: How could you even begin to put a put a 70 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: figure evaluation on that? Yeah, exactly. And I think here 71 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: even in the run up on the housing um side 72 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: as well, I was in business school and I remember 73 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: being in a class and my you know, my, my 74 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: business school colleagues were just pounding the table that, you know, 75 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: everybody should be able to own a house, and it 76 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: doesn't matter what their income was, and doesn't matter exactly. 77 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: We're three, um, everybody should be able to get alone. 78 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: And you know, again, I just didn't pass the smell test. 79 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: And I think my experience at Morgan Stanley just sort 80 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: of reinforced that the importance of common sense and the 81 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:36,919 Speaker 1: smell test. My favorite scene in the Big Short in 82 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,679 Speaker 1: the film is the Steve Carell character is literally speaking 83 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: to a stripper about a house and he says, wait, 84 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 1: you have a house. She goes, no, I have six. 85 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: And that's like the light bulb goes off. This is 86 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 1: all going to collapse, right exactly, Just just hilarious. So, 87 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 1: so in two thousand three, you go to Washington, you 88 00:04:56,040 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: work for a congressman, right, congresswoman congresswoman congress per yes, um, 89 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 1: and you're you're doing legislative work, You're you're doing policy analysis. 90 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: How do you make the transition from that back to finance? 91 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 1: Was that a natural progression or was a little bit hmm. 92 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: Let's see if we can we can mix these two interests. Yeah. So, 93 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: you know, when I was at SO, I did a 94 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: third year investment banking Morgan Stanley. I was in Financial Sponsors, 95 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: so sort of the private equity group, and all when 96 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: all my friends were graduating from the analyst program, they 97 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: were all going into private equity programs UM, TPG and Apollo, 98 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 1: and I just felt, you know, as much as I 99 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: liked my experience in investment banking, and in some ways, 100 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 1: so many of the things that I applied today I 101 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 1: learned from that experience. UM, I just was looking for 102 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 1: something more. And before I even went to college, I 103 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,479 Speaker 1: had worked as a volunteer for a woman at the 104 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: time who was in the Colorado State legislature where I'm from. 105 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: And um, I had sort of always had this itch 106 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 1: about going to Washington, and so felt like it was 107 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: it was scary in a lot of ways because as 108 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: again all my friends and investment banking and Morgan Stanley 109 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: were going to these, you know, very these premiere private 110 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 1: equity firms, and I was thinking of taking this really 111 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: significant pay cut to do something that was pretty risky. Um. 112 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: But this woman who had worked for in Colorado had 113 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 1: later gotten elected to Congress, and so that I worked 114 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 1: for her as a legislative a And I really do 115 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: view that as one of the inflection points in my 116 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 1: career as something that felt really uncomfortable and really scary, 117 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 1: but um, it was in retrospect, the best decision. And 118 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 1: would you recommend to inform you know, so much of 119 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 1: what I'm doing today? Would you recommend people go outside 120 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: of their comfort zone and do stuff that's scary as 121 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: a way to develop their career, because it sounds like 122 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: it worked out very well for you. Yeah, it's you know, 123 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: it's so tree right. Um, kind of go, you know, 124 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:55,280 Speaker 1: do something that's that that's pushes you, that's uncomfortable. But 125 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: a business school one of my professors gave her a 126 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: kind of at HARV they had these last speeches of 127 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,359 Speaker 1: every semester, and she said, you know, go towards the 128 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 1: discomfort in your career. So when somebody asks you to 129 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: do something that feels really uncomfortable, uh and makes you 130 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: sort of nauseous, Um, you know, do that because that 131 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: means that you're going to to learn and even if 132 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: you fail, you're learning through failure. And so you know, 133 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: I think this going to Washington was even maybe a 134 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: bigger example of that, um because but you know, you're 135 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: in your twenties and I felt like, you know, looking 136 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: back again, it was such a wise decision, but it 137 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: was it did feel really scared. I don't I don't 138 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: think that's tried. I think people are afraid of that 139 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: uncomfort zone. That just I'm not familiar with this. I 140 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: don't know this, and I wish when I was younger, 141 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: I was more willing to try stuff that really frightened me. 142 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: It's it's so easy to say, I really don't have 143 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: any expertise in that I'm gonna stick to my knitting 144 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: right now exactly. And I think, um, you know, again, 145 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: I see a lot of my friends who went right 146 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: from investment banking to private equity to business cool, and 147 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: then they kind of had a reckoning in their career, 148 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: right because they hadn't necessarily scratched those itches that were 149 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: maybe a little bit more unconventional, a little bit scarier, 150 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: and you have less to lose in your twenties, right 151 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: and have a family. Um, yeah, I had, I had 152 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: it right, and I had made enough money and were 153 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: instantly to you know, have some savings because it was 154 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: a really dramatic pay cut. Um. But again, money had 155 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: never really been sort of the big focus in my life. 156 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: It was doing to me again sounds so the cheesy, 157 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: but doing something that fulfilled me and taking that step 158 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: really kind of satisfied a lot a lot of what 159 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: I was looking for. Take us through the typical day 160 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: in the life of the head of public policy at 161 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: Bondiant PIMCOH Yeah, I mean I think that that title 162 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: is vague enough, um that it because sort of encapsulates 163 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: you know, UM a lot of what I do and 164 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 1: allows it to be really dynamic, which it is. So 165 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: the way I think about the position and it's UM. 166 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: The position didn't exist before before I took it over, 167 00:08:57,920 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 1: and so in some ways that's given me a lot 168 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: of flexibility and the firm a lot of flexibility in 169 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: order to sort of design it UM in the way 170 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: that they know that they see fit and that UM 171 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: is the most sort of beneficial from a client and 172 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: investment perspective. So, you know, I view myself as wearing 173 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: a couple of different hats in that in that role, 174 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: one is this sort of traditional government affairs role, which 175 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: is advocating on behalf of our clients and our business 176 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: UM about policies in Washington, or you know, playing defense 177 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:27,959 Speaker 1: in some ways depending on the administration and what's going 178 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: on in d in d C. So one is more 179 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 1: of a traditional government affairs role UM. The other hat, though, 180 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: that I think is more unique in this position, is 181 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 1: that I'm pretty integrated into the investment process, so helping 182 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: our investment committee sort of think about what's going on 183 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 1: in Washington and how that may inform our positioning and 184 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 1: our macro outlook UM and then sort of the last, uh, 185 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: sort of function that I serve is you're talking to 186 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,439 Speaker 1: clients about how we're thinking about Washington, how we're looking 187 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 1: at things, and as you might imagine, UM, on any 188 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: given day, you know, there's more demands in one of 189 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: those sort of parts of the function than others. So 190 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: sometimes our clients are really you know, wondering, Um, I 191 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 1: got lots of questions about tariffs or about tax or 192 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: what have you. Other. Um. Other times I'm again, we're 193 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: playing more active in Washington from a from a traditional 194 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: government affairs. So so let's delve into your work with 195 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: the Investment Committee, because I'm kind of fascinated about that. 196 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: We have just we're recording this in early April. We've 197 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: just had a run of I can't even use the 198 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: word in sanity anymore. We need different adjectives. But but 199 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: it's been the trade war, and it's been the negotiations 200 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: with North Korea, and just this week we had the 201 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 1: FBI kicked the doors down to the President's attorney's office 202 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 1: hotel at home, and it's just like there's no escaping 203 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: the news. It's it's brutal. Now you go sit down 204 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: with the Investment Committee is the discussion more from the 205 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 1: perspective of here's the macro issue of how these tariffs 206 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: will impact these sectors, or is it a broader this 207 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: is what sentiment looks like in response to these headlines, 208 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: or is it not limited to any of the above. Well, 209 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:17,719 Speaker 1: I think it's I think in some ways it's all 210 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,079 Speaker 1: of the all of the above, And I agree with you. 211 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: It's just been relentless, right, I mean, the news cycle 212 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: over the last two years has been just you just 213 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: cannot escape it. Um, you know one but that one 214 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: guy in Ohio who threw all his TV's out and 215 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: hasn't written anything other than him. For the rest of us, 216 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 1: it's just been especial if you're you know, if you're 217 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:38,199 Speaker 1: if you have to follow the news as part of 218 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: your job. I mean, of course from a policy from 219 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: a walk and nerd position, Um that I kind of 220 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: think about myself as a policy nerd. It's fascinating, right, 221 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: because this is a really dynamic, um, you know, really 222 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: in some ways unpredictable policymaking environment. We can speak for 223 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: an hour about the effect of the pass through tax 224 00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: cut legislation of LLC's like you want to lank out 225 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: it's been three hours. I don't know, I don't know 226 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 1: if your if your listeners are going to appreciate that, 227 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: but but no so so, but but to serve to 228 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,319 Speaker 1: your to your question about how our Investment Committee thinks 229 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: about this, well, first of all, and I would say 230 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: that that politics and policy have always been a big 231 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: part of what we've considered, at least it's been one 232 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: of the inputs to our investment process. Um, given the 233 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: fact that you're you began as a fixed income shop 234 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 1: and what the Feddle Reserve did and response to inflation 235 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: has to be exactly right. So so the FED response 236 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: to inflation and growth, and what is a big driver 237 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: of growth, Well, it's the fiscal part, right, of course, 238 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: it's other you know, other parts of the economy, but 239 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 1: that that g and the g d P equation is 240 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 1: pretty pretty important, the gross part, the gross right, yeah, 241 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: the government part, thank you very Do we need to 242 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: walk through the equation maybe, um, but but but so anyway, so, 243 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,679 Speaker 1: so it's always been something that has been a big consideration. 244 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: We've you know, we've talked about it, we've thought about it, 245 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: but clearly over really since the financial crisis, when the 246 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: inner set action of politics and policy and markets have 247 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: been more acute. I mean, going back to Tarp, going 248 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,680 Speaker 1: back to Dodd Frank Um and then of course the 249 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:09,679 Speaker 1: you know, the housing bail out, the bank's bail out, 250 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: all of this, you know, you know, what have you 251 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: And then fast forward to today when all of these 252 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: you know, what's going on Washington really is driving markets. 253 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: Um So, you know, I think we have the luxury 254 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: in many ways of being a long term investor. Right 255 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 1: We're a fiduciary for millions of retirees, for thousands of 256 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,719 Speaker 1: pension plans and what have you. So we really are 257 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: not necessarily reacting to the news of the day so much. 258 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: We are trying to construct a longer term outlook about 259 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 1: you know, where we should be, um as it relates 260 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: to say, interest rates or credit or emerging markets, and 261 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 1: what's going on Washington drives you know, all of those 262 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 1: things arguably these days, um so so. So take trade, 263 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: you know something. Trade has been something I've been talking 264 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: about honestly at nauseum to our Investment Committee really since 265 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: right after the election, because I think people under estimated 266 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: how sincere President Trump felt feels about trade, and I 267 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: really and you know, which is stunning to me because 268 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: every speech he gave during the campaign was Hey, NAFTA's 269 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: I'm quoting the president. NAFTA is a terrible deal. I 270 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: don't believe t p P is working for us. We 271 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:17,839 Speaker 1: need to change these rules and if no one is 272 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: going to treat us fairly, we're going to implement tariffs. 273 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: Every time people say they're surprised, it's like, were you 274 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: not listening to any of the exactly And you even 275 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: go back to the tape when he did interviews back 276 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties and he was talking about Japan 277 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: cleaning our clocks on trade, about NAFTA, about China ascension 278 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: to the w t O. And I don't think a 279 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: lot of public policy issues animated him before he became 280 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: the president, but this was one of them. And I 281 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: really think he sincerely believes that we're getting short changed 282 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: on these trade agreements, and he wants directively it's been 283 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 1: you know, he's pretty all over the place on so 284 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: many subjects. If you're going to give him credit for 285 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: being consistent on anything, this goes back decades. There was 286 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: an O five into of view with someone, maybe it 287 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: was Oprah, where he's talking about We're not being treated 288 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: fail ay boy other countries and our leaders are ignoring it. 289 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: I think that was back in the nineties. Actually, I 290 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: think there are several probably several interviews, but there's one 291 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: interview I think from seven or something with Oprah or 292 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: He's talking about your pain totally that I have the 293 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: exact same feeling that you do when people say, well, 294 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: these taffs are a shock. Are really He's been pounding 295 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: the table about this for not that you have to 296 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: agree with the tariffs, but you shouldn't be certain to 297 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: be surprised, right and so and you know, and and 298 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: and you know, you go back to seen and I 299 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: think people thought, Okay, well he hadn't done anything in 300 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen on trade, and I would be I mean, 301 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: not pedantic, but I would I would take issue with 302 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: that as well, because if you actually look at what 303 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: he was doing and what his trade representative, Bob Leitchheiser 304 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: was doing, what Ross was doing at Commerce, they were 305 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: laying the foundation for these tariffs. So you know, not 306 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: to not to bor everybody, but before you can just 307 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: pursue tariffs, you have to go through this investigation process 308 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: and that's you know, several took in this case almost 309 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: a year to do so on stealing aluminum that was 310 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: initiated back in April seventeen, and then of course they 311 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: just made the decision most more recently on on how 312 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: to um, on how to proceed. But this this felt 313 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: pretty clear that this was these were all these things 314 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: were coming UM. And I think to the credit of 315 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: our folks at PIMCO, you know, they weren't necessarily surprised 316 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: that that that that this has happened. UM. But of course, 317 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: you know, this is this is determining how markets are reacting. 318 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: So it's something that we've been talking more recently about. 319 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about the changing role of 320 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: women on Wall Street, and I have to go back 321 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: to a quote from Michelle Meyer. She's UM one of 322 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: the senior economists at Bank America Merrill Lynch, and she 323 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: made a specific point of saying when she was coming up, 324 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: there were very few women role models for her to 325 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: look up to and emulate as an analyst slash economist. 326 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: But it's beginning to change. What are your perspective on 327 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: that topic. I think it, I mean, it's changing, but 328 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: it's at a glacial pace. Honestly, I think especially on 329 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: the cell side and investment banks. If I if I 330 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: look back to when I entered finance back at two thousand, 331 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 1: you know, but almost half of my analysts class were women, UM, 332 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 1: which was UM, I think really notable at the time. 333 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: I just don't think, you know what what what's been 334 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 1: UM in some ways discouraging is that over time there 335 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 1: have been many women who have dropped out of finance. UM. 336 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: So it's not necessarily that we're not starting at the 337 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: right place. It's really a question of retaining them and 338 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: developing them and promoting them and all of those things. UM. 339 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: But but to Michelle's point, it's certainly I think the 340 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: the landscape and is looking different, but also the commitment 341 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: among senior leaders. I think that UM, you know, our folks, 342 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: certainly at PIMCO, UH, you know, from the CEO down, 343 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 1: are really committed to increasing diversity. And it's not just 344 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 1: lip service. It's actually UM making sure that you know, 345 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: every interview slate has UM some woman on it, UM 346 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,120 Speaker 1: at the very least one, UM, if not more. UM. 347 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: It's making sure that when we're looking at promotion classes 348 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 1: that they're balanced. UM. It's making sure that we are 349 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 1: looking two women for um, you know, different opportunities instead 350 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 1: of just instead of maybe just just sort of the 351 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: conventional man. So and I think we're really trying to 352 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: make a difference. Um, but it's again, it's been I 353 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 1: think it's been glacial. I just look of almost the 354 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: last twenty years in finance. I've been involved in financial services, 355 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: and we haven't made as much progress as we really 356 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 1: need to. But I do think it's I do think 357 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 1: it's changing. So So, I had a debate not too 358 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 1: long ago with a friend from outside of the industry saying, so, 359 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: when is when is Wall Street having it's meat too movement? 360 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 1: And my response was, Hey, you know, things were really 361 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 1: terrible in the eighties, and I think it had it 362 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: in and from my perspective, trading deaths were horrific, and 363 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 1: the lack of general respectful women in that period was awful. 364 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 1: But you had a bunch of litigation in the boom 365 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 1: boom room and all that crazy stuff. And I think 366 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: Wall Street has been woke long before the rest of 367 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: the country did. Plus compliance plus litigation, it seems Wall Street, 368 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 1: at least in my career, has been ahead of other 369 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 1: fields in terms of recognizing, hey, this is a problem. 370 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: We better do something about it. Not that it's remotely fixed, 371 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 1: but there's some awareness. Is that a fair Yeah? I 372 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: think that's I think that's fair. Um. However, if you 373 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 1: look at the composition of management teams across Wall Street 374 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 1: and the buy side, you don't necessarily see as many 375 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 1: women as you want to. So I think, wow, we 376 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 1: may not have, um, the more draconian severe harassment issues 377 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,159 Speaker 1: that I think some of these other industries had that 378 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: have been unearthed recently, we still do have a real 379 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 1: development problem among women and retention problem. And so that's 380 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: the key is how do we make sure we can 381 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: we can get women in the door. You know, you 382 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: can get women in the door at twenty two because 383 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: they want to be an investment banking programs and they 384 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:14,880 Speaker 1: want to go to the buy side. Um, but how 385 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: do we make sure that we're getting them to the 386 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: next step? And I think some of it is, um, 387 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: you know this, Some of it is the women do 388 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 1: have to have children biologically, right, So making sure that 389 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 1: we're supporting women during that period of time and not 390 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: just making sure that they have maternity leave, but making 391 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: sure that when they come back that they're supported, making 392 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: sure that they don't necessarily miss out on a promotion 393 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: or opportunity when they're out on leave or when they're 394 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 1: really just in um the fast lane of parenting. I 395 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 1: think that And and you know, the the interesting thing 396 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 1: that PIMCO is that we're seeing these demands both from 397 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: women but also from men. I mean, we a lot 398 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: of men in our New York office especially have working wives, 399 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: and so you know, they want to make sure that 400 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 1: they have parental leave, that they have some flexibility, um, 401 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: to make sure that they can go to the preschool 402 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: recital or what have you. So in some ways, um, 403 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:06,719 Speaker 1: you know, and this I don't want to say that 404 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: this if you kind of address these issues of mothering, 405 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: that you're going to fix the problem, but that definitely 406 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:14,719 Speaker 1: is a piece in the puzzle that has to be 407 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 1: addressed him go, like other organizations are trying to do. 408 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 1: So promotion retention are Is it fair to say it's 409 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: just as important as pay, parity and recruitment on the 410 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: other end, I think I think promotion and retention in 411 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 1: some ways fixes the pay issue because a lot of 412 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: times the pay issue is because you just have more 413 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: senior men at the top. So if you get more 414 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 1: women at the top, I a making these decisions about pay, 415 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 1: but be just making sure that there is just sort 416 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 1: of balance about the distribution of pay um. And you know, 417 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: some of these recent studies that have come out have 418 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: I think conflated the issue. Right, So there's this UK 419 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: gender parity study that came out and at least in 420 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,679 Speaker 1: our case, because like every other funny intra firm, we 421 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: had to to publish it. What I think, you know, 422 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: I don't think we have a pay I mean, it's 423 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 1: it's it's it's illegal to discriminate pay on gender, right, 424 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: so well, but in our case I can say is 425 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: that it's it's it's not about pay parity. It's about 426 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 1: making sure that you get more women at the top 427 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 1: so that distribution of pay doesn't look so so out 428 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: of whack. So the area that becomes gray, or at 429 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 1: least that people have been hiding in has been all right. 430 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: If you're a level three c F A and AN 431 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,159 Speaker 1: analysts and you have five years experience, you would imagine 432 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: that plus or minus a small percentage, that pay level 433 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 1: should be sort of comparable regardless of gender, what have you. 434 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: But some of the complaints have been two people, maybe 435 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: one person's covering tech and someone's covering a less sexty 436 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: space like utilities. You end up with some pretty wild 437 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: disparities in pay. And the defense has always been, well 438 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 1: it's this sector versus that or something along those lines. 439 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: Is that an issue that people are hiding behind, or 440 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: is itself simply by having more senior women at the 441 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:12,440 Speaker 1: upper echelons and upper pay scale at at large farms. Yeah, 442 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 1: I mean, look, I don't hey, I don't think there's 443 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: one silver bullet and be I can't speak about other firms, 444 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: but I can just speak about about him go. And 445 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: we've you know, we've brought in the third party auditors 446 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: to make sure that we're paying fairly, um, in terms 447 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: of somebody who has the you know, wearing the same role, 448 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: the same level and what what have you in the 449 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: same function. Um. But again it's the issue of making 450 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: sure that we have women in leadership. So um, you 451 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: know those women are you know, having the same opportunities 452 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,919 Speaker 1: and are getting those big paychecks that men have been 453 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: getting historically. So I I don't want to say that 454 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: there's one, you know, there's one way to solve this, 455 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 1: but I do think that developing women and promoting them 456 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 1: and getting them into these decision making roles is super important. 457 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: Your offices are in New York, right are you? You're 458 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,160 Speaker 1: not Newport Beach. You're in New York, New York, Yes, right, 459 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 1: that office, that Newport Beach location is about as beautiful 460 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 1: as a place. Pretty nice, Yes, you can. You can 461 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: imagine that. A lot of my my business school friends 462 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 1: think I'm just nuts for working in New York versus 463 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 1: Newport Beach. But of course New York is closer to Washington. 464 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: That makes that makes perfect sense for you for your drills. 465 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 1: So let's let's talk about Washington, and let's talk about 466 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:23,120 Speaker 1: your role. Is it more government affairs and d C 467 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 1: or is it more hey, investment committee, Here are some 468 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 1: issues you need to be aware of. I mean, it's honestly, 469 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: it's just both. And it really depends on the environment. 470 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,159 Speaker 1: So you can imagine back a few years ago, after 471 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: Dodd Frank was was implemented, and you know, all the 472 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: regulatory agencies were deciding the rules of the road, um 473 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 1: for derivatives and other things that that matter. From our perspective, 474 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: it was more of a traditional government affairs role. Um, 475 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: we were educating folks in Washington. We were trying to 476 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: UM make our you know, make our arguments about you 477 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: know what the they what they should kind of the 478 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: direction of the policy should go in UM. But now, 479 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: just given what we've been talking about, you know how 480 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 1: newsworthy and eventful, event driven this this administration has been. 481 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: It's been more on on the investment side. So we 482 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: have a tragedy like the Parkland school shooting and these 483 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,919 Speaker 1: things normally fade pretty quickly, that seemed to have legs 484 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,199 Speaker 1: and really seemed to last a while. How do you 485 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: integrate something like that into the investment committee? I know 486 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: black Rock is talking about a gun free fund and 487 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: other such things. How do you deal with something ang 488 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 1: so that does not necessarily impact us as much. I mean, well, 489 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: we might have specific sectors that are impacted, but from 490 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 1: a macro perspective, you know, gun legislation is not necessarily 491 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,120 Speaker 1: going to impact the growth of the economy or the 492 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: FEDS next move right, So most of the things that 493 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: from a pure kind of top down macro perspective are 494 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: the things that are going to be driving growth and inflation. 495 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: And you know, gun policy is not necessary, but it 496 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 1: could obviously impact more of a bottom up so so 497 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 1: let's so then let's talk about something that could impact 498 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: theoretically the economy. You had a very interesting set of 499 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: comments about the tariffs and saying, this is the sixteen 500 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 1: trillion dollar economy. These are a hundred or a hundred 501 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: and fifty billion dollars worth the tariffs. Explain what the 502 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: thought processes and how that gets digested by the group 503 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: running investments. Sure, so, you know, the the the the 504 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 1: statement that you're referring to is really based on the 505 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,719 Speaker 1: fifty billions. So the initial set of tariffs that President 506 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,120 Speaker 1: Trump had announced as part of this investigation into China's 507 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,880 Speaker 1: you know, potential um sort tenuous use of American intellectual property, 508 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: fifty billion is not going to really be too much 509 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 1: of a headwind on the economy, right, we say, a 510 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 1: tenth of represent perhaps in terms of a drag on GDP. 511 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: That's really dwarfed by the more pro growth things that 512 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: we have seen from this administration, including of course the 513 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: tax bill, which has gotten a lot of news, but 514 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 1: also something that hasn't really gotten i think as much 515 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: attention in the media, which has been the spending bill 516 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,199 Speaker 1: that was approved, you know, earlier this year, and that 517 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: adds about you know, thirty basis points to real GDP 518 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 1: growth and everybody and so yeah, I mean maybe not us, 519 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 1: but but we we knew it was coming. Honestly, I 520 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 1: think that the size of it was surprising. We were 521 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: thinking more sort of twenty basis points. But the fact 522 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: that it is up to the kind of the three 523 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 1: tenths of a of a percent in terms of real 524 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: real GDP we're talking about really you know, significant impulse 525 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: from Washington, so about six tenths. So if you talk 526 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: about one tenth of a drag, well, again, distill the 527 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: good outweighs the bad. I think the big question, however, 528 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: is do these hundred billion dollars of tariffs um in 529 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 1: addition to the fifty billion or do we proceed with those? 530 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: And then of course the big question is what is 531 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: China do and retaliation and that there's just a lot 532 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: of uncertainty around it. But to our earlier to our 533 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: earlier discussion, and I just I think it's going to 534 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: be a much more significant concession from China for this 535 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: administration to back off. I think people who view this 536 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: as sort of symbolic posturing just trying to get China 537 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: to the negotiating table and an easy win, or again 538 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:20,679 Speaker 1: really underestimating what how President Trump feels about this issue 539 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: and the folks that he has in charge. I mean, 540 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 1: Bob Bleitheiser is an incredibly widely credible U. S Trade 541 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: representative who knows the law and was behind many of 542 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 1: the more protectionous measures against Japan and nine. So um, 543 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: I would take again, I would take the I would 544 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: take President Trump very seriously on these issues. Do you 545 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: ever find yourself looking at the reaction at elsewhere on 546 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: the street that they're not taking this of all the things, 547 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 1: like I think the wall is never going to be built. 548 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: I don't think anybody really cares about the wall. But 549 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: the protection ism in the tariffs, I'm surprised people are 550 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: surprised exactly. I'm surprised that there's a surprised My my 551 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: has been trades equities and uh, we have some pretty 552 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: interesting dinner conversations and all of he's like, oh, you're 553 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: such a bear about the trade policy and the protection 554 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 1: is m and the potential trade war. Um. But again, 555 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: I mean to to our to our discussion, we needed this. 556 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: This was this was so clearly telegraphed to the market 557 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: that this was going to happen. It was just a 558 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: question of when and not if. Um that sometimes the 559 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: equity market does you know, it's it's the fuddles us 560 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:30,959 Speaker 1: and I think it fuddles me and sometimes fuddles other 561 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,479 Speaker 1: folks that have So let's hold the equity market saw 562 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: and look at the fixed income market. We now are 563 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 1: back to trillion dollar deficits the first time in about 564 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: six or seven years. Uh, the nineteen trillion dollar collected 565 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: total debt. I've seen all sorts of forecast from to 566 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: thirty trillion, whatever it is. It's a lot of money, 567 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: and deficits tend to impact the bond market. How are 568 00:29:55,280 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: you advising the Investment Committee of here's what def sits 569 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: are going to mean for inflation, for credit availability, and 570 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 1: for were yields may end up. Yeah, and this is 571 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: I mean, this is one where I'm really just an 572 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: input and it's really their analysis and discussion that will 573 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: lead to that in terms of how it impacts our 574 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: position positioning. But it but it is one of the 575 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: reasons um. Our view is that you know the spending 576 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: bill was going to happen, and that there was going 577 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 1: to be you know, some more fiscal profligacy. Then I 578 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: think people had had maybe expected, um, but this is 579 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: going to have a dampening effect on growth over the 580 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: long term. So you know, again we have the benefit 581 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: of being long term investors. We think three things through 582 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: on a cyclical sort of six to nine months basis, 583 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: but we also have the luxury of thinking things through 584 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: on a kind of a three to five year basis. 585 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 1: And this is the genesis of our new neutral and 586 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: um you know, new normal kind of paradigm that we think. 587 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: This is one of the reasons why rates are structurally 588 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: going to be lower, because you're probably going to have 589 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 1: a dampening of you know, on growth because as of 590 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: these large you know, kind of debt overhangs. Because in 591 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 1: a of course, in a in a time of recession 592 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 1: or you know, down you know, or downturn, the sort 593 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: of the fiscal um side will have less capacity to 594 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: actually step in because of these big deficits that they're 595 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 1: running in good times. I mean, as you know, this 596 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 1: is a very unusual approach, right to be adding all 597 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: of this kind of fiscal juice at a time that 598 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: you know, the economy is actually doing pretty well, right, 599 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 1: so to add it late in the economic cycle. Um, 600 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 1: we think what might preclude policymakers from stepping in when 601 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 1: actually the ac this would have been better timed had 602 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: it been six years earlier or fill in the blank, 603 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: three or four or five years later whenever the next 604 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: recession hit. Yeah, and you know, we you know, we 605 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: don't really take a normative view on policy, so we're 606 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: not telling policymakers what they should do or what they 607 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 1: shouldn't do. What we say is, if you do this, 608 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: this is how the market will react, and this is 609 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: how the economy will react. So, um, you know, should 610 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: it have been and done later? You know, who knows, 611 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: But certainly I think the practical impact of it being 612 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: done now is that means that policymakers have less flexibility 613 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: longer terms. So pro cyclical stimulus is different than countercyclical stimulus. 614 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 1: Pretty right. So so let me ask you eCOM one 615 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: or two questions. How long you're right at the intersection 616 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: between Wall Street and DC, between public policy and finance. 617 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: How long does it take for the markets will hold 618 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 1: the efficient market hypothesis to decide for a moment to 619 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: actually understand what's taking place in DC and reflected in prices. 620 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: Because I'm thinking about your husband's comments on oh, what 621 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: is this all this tariff chatter in seventeen When it's 622 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 1: not chatter, it's going to happen. How long does it 623 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 1: take for the markets to actually digest and and adjust 624 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: to these big issues. It seems somethings take a long 625 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: time to work their way in. Yeah, and I think, um, 626 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 1: I think that that's absolutely true. Although it really is 627 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: important to define which markets you're talking about obviously, right, 628 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 1: So the equity market, which we just have less interaction, 629 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,239 Speaker 1: and because we really managed primarily fixed income assets, um, 630 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: seems much more reactive to these headlines and and and 631 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: arguably things are more you know, some certain sectors or 632 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: more price for perfection, so they're probably more vulnerable to 633 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: sell offs when you do have a negative headline, whether 634 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 1: it's trade or something else. Um. I think the fixed 635 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: income market has been maybe a little bit more deliberate, 636 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 1: a little bit more thoughtful about internalizing some of these policies. 637 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: You see I think less dramatic moves from on headlines. Uh, 638 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: And I think you see kind of less um, less 639 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 1: volatili and again is what the drivers are of, you know, 640 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: of fixed income versus versus equities, But I think that 641 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: the fixed income market has been more a little bit 642 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: more immune to be what's going on in Washington. We 643 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: have been speaking with Libby Cantrell of PIMCO Issues, the 644 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 1: head of Public Policy and Government Affairs. If you enjoy 645 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: this conversation, be sure and check out our podcast extras, 646 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 1: where we keep the tape rolling and continue to discuss 647 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: all things policy wonk and market related. You can find 648 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: that wherever Finer podcasts are sold Apple, iTunes, Overcast, SoundCloud, 649 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 1: and of course Bloomberg dot com. We love your comments, 650 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 1: feedback and suggestions right to us at m IB podcast 651 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot net. You could follow me on Twitter 652 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: at rit Halts, or check out my daily columns at 653 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 1: Bloomberg View dot com. I'm Barry Hults. You're listening to 654 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 1: Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. Welcome to the podcast. 655 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 1: Thank you Libby so much for doing this. This has 656 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 1: really been quite fascinating and we've been trying to get 657 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,879 Speaker 1: you edualed for some time. Before I get to my 658 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 1: favorite questions, they're they're a handful of other questions we 659 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,840 Speaker 1: didn't get to that. I'm really I really wanna just 660 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: just get a few, um a few moments on UM 661 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: and and it's mostly politics. So the first question, and 662 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:27,720 Speaker 1: I think, and this is a pretty standard issue, how 663 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: should investors think about politics and how it relates to 664 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: their portfolios? Because we we get emails about this all 665 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 1: the time, I know, and I wish I had I 666 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,279 Speaker 1: wish I had a one one, uh simple, straightforward way 667 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 1: of thinking of it. I mean, I think in some ways, UM, 668 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 1: you know, investors, uh, I think hope the politics politicians 669 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,880 Speaker 1: are about a base level do no harm, right, but 670 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,319 Speaker 1: they don't they don't really get in the way of 671 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,399 Speaker 1: of markets. I think that the sort of second order 672 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 1: is that they hope that polity titians actually do something 673 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 1: for economic growth, UM, for longer term viability and what 674 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 1: have you. And then I think on the sort of 675 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,759 Speaker 1: flip side of that is really what they can do 676 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:14,920 Speaker 1: to to hinder markets and the economy and and you 677 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: know not it's it's probably too reductive to characterize UM 678 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 1: the past ten years any one way, but it has 679 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 1: been more of I think a headwind just two markets 680 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 1: and UM and you know, maybe to growth then than 681 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 1: the typical investor would would would meaning things like deficits 682 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: or tax hikes or wars in Iraq or just the whole. 683 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,399 Speaker 1: I think the noise coming out of Washington really right. 684 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,759 Speaker 1: I mean, I think the fact that um bipartisanship isn't 685 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: necessarily lost, but it's definitely on ice, at least for 686 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 1: a while. UM that we've seen more manufactured crises, whether 687 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 1: it's the debt ceiling crisis or or government shutdowns, or 688 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 1: just this real lack of comedy and lack of I 689 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 1: think constructive engagement between policy between the two parties to 690 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: actually address really longer term issues like our entitlements issue, 691 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: which has become so polarized. But having worked on the Hill, 692 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: there's some really easy ways to address this that are 693 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,959 Speaker 1: actually quite bipartisan that if a centrist coalition came out 694 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,240 Speaker 1: I think put something forward in the political environment was different, 695 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: we could actually affect change. But it's really the kind 696 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: of the lack of political will, of political courage in 697 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 1: some ways, just the the lack of even discussion between 698 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 1: between the two parties. It seems that a lot of 699 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 1: these are unforced eras and self inflicted wounds. I mean, 700 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,520 Speaker 1: for sure, yes, I mean and and so I just 701 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 1: so again, you know, I don't it's not only are 702 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,839 Speaker 1: they not doing no harm. And maybe it's not, it's 703 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 1: not sort of short term harm, but in the long run, 704 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 1: you think that you really have to have the courage 705 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 1: of your convictions and and just courage in general in 706 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,320 Speaker 1: order to address some of these really longer term big 707 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,360 Speaker 1: issues like we're that we're talking about. Either it's the 708 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:08,320 Speaker 1: debt issue, it's the entitlement issue, it's investment in education 709 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,560 Speaker 1: or infrastructure, what have you. That that's that that takes courage, 710 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,480 Speaker 1: and also you risk not getting reelected. And I think 711 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:16,840 Speaker 1: we don't have folks who are have that kind of 712 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 1: long term view. The thing I'm shocked about you said, 713 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 1: do no harm. For a second, put put in place 714 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,720 Speaker 1: some pro growth policies. If there's anything that's pro growth 715 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 1: and has some bipartisan support, it's an infrastructure spend. And 716 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,719 Speaker 1: yet nobody seems to be able to get anything through it. 717 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: I know it's been frustrating, right because it's something that 718 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 1: was contemplated under President Obama UM and it was certainly 719 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 1: obviously contemplated on the campaign trail. And I think if 720 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,919 Speaker 1: both candidates, both candidates and and and to your point, 721 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,279 Speaker 1: you know, everybody, every member of Congress likes to bring 722 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 1: it home some goodies for the district, right, Um, and 723 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 1: that is one thing that you know, I would say, 724 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 1: and again there's not one explanation for why there has 725 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:06,400 Speaker 1: been a lack of bipartisanship, but the elimination of earmarks. 726 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 1: And this is going to be the unpopular thing to say, 727 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: but you know, these are the things that that horse 728 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:15,320 Speaker 1: trading for some sort of middle ground, and it really 729 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 1: precludes sort of the ideological wings of both parties from um, 730 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 1: you know, sort of abandoning their party and from not 731 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,280 Speaker 1: voting for something. So basically brings people to the table 732 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,560 Speaker 1: and it allows compromise. And I really fundamentally believe and 733 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 1: to to the to the credit of policymakers in Washington, 734 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,960 Speaker 1: I actually think this is a widely held belief that 735 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 1: compromise is really central to governing. I mean, it's like, 736 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 1: guess it's the statement of the obvious, right, but you 737 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:43,799 Speaker 1: need to bring those folks, and you need to bring 738 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 1: you need to incentivise them to compromise, and earmarks was 739 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:51,720 Speaker 1: a way to do that. Talk about unintended consequences of 740 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:56,920 Speaker 1: of rule changes, did it? Did anyone raise the objection 741 00:39:57,719 --> 00:39:59,960 Speaker 1: that if you get rid of your marks, you're elimiting 742 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,280 Speaker 1: the ability for people to horse straight across the aisle exactly. 743 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,640 Speaker 1: Um and and it's it's been something that has been 744 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: discussed behind I think closed doors recently. But but it's 745 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 1: so the optics of bringing back earmarks, I think it 746 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,319 Speaker 1: would be so bad. But it's you know, it's one 747 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,440 Speaker 1: percent of discretionary spending. It's such a small part of spending. 748 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,440 Speaker 1: And discretionary spending, of course, is only a third of 749 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 1: all government spending because two thirds is entitlement spending. So 750 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:33,880 Speaker 1: we're talking about a really diminimus is entitled in spending. Yeah, military, 751 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 1: big chunk of that also, I just want Yeah, it's 752 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,759 Speaker 1: about five billion of discretionaries, so it's about half of 753 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,480 Speaker 1: discretionaries military and some of the mandatory some of entitlements 754 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:48,279 Speaker 1: is earmarked for military folks in terms of benefits and 755 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 1: what have you and healthcare programs. But but yeah, so anyway, 756 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:54,960 Speaker 1: so it's a very small part of discretionary spending. And 757 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,560 Speaker 1: again this is a difficult thing for a member of 758 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,920 Speaker 1: Congress to advocate for, but I do think it was 759 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 1: an uintended consequence of its elimination, and you you you 760 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 1: look at sort of the inflection point of when all 761 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,520 Speaker 1: this partisanship happened, and maybe it's just totally coincidental, but 762 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 1: it really was around two thousand and ten. It was 763 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,640 Speaker 1: partly because of the Tea Party, of course, but again 764 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:16,200 Speaker 1: there wasn't an incentive to bring them to the table 765 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:18,439 Speaker 1: because there weren't those air marks anymore. And my last 766 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:22,959 Speaker 1: question before I get to my favorite questions. Your role 767 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:27,160 Speaker 1: of PIMCO is so central to dealing with policy and 768 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:32,319 Speaker 1: the and the the investment side. How do you not 769 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:37,400 Speaker 1: let your own personal politics interfere with your process? Yeah? Well, 770 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:41,080 Speaker 1: something that I you know, I think like every investor 771 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,840 Speaker 1: who's covering their own a sector, they really try to 772 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:49,120 Speaker 1: do it in a dispassionate, objective way. Um. I think 773 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:54,239 Speaker 1: because politics is so visceral, it's so emotional. Um, it's 774 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,600 Speaker 1: maybe harder to do, but I really and it goes 775 00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 1: back to our view that we don't have we don't 776 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:01,399 Speaker 1: have a normati vie about how things should be. If 777 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,520 Speaker 1: we're trying to you know, react to how things are 778 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,120 Speaker 1: um and predict how things will be um again, not 779 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:10,719 Speaker 1: how they should be. So that so that's ah, that's 780 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:14,680 Speaker 1: it makes it easier because I'm not saying projecting my 781 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,399 Speaker 1: own kind of views on what a policy direction. I'm 782 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:19,600 Speaker 1: sort of saying, Okay, this is what is likely to happen, 783 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:21,200 Speaker 1: and this is how the market will react to it. 784 00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,080 Speaker 1: And I view that instead a very similar role as 785 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,960 Speaker 1: any sort of credit research analyst who's looking at another sector. 786 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:30,520 Speaker 1: Just passionate, objective. But you know, it's it's it's a 787 00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,439 Speaker 1: harder just given given the topic. All Right, so let's 788 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,600 Speaker 1: get to my favorite questions. These are the the issues 789 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:39,120 Speaker 1: we ask all of our guests. I think I'm woefully 790 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,080 Speaker 1: unprepared for. By the way, just just re associate the 791 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,759 Speaker 1: first thing that comes into your mind. Uh, tell us 792 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,320 Speaker 1: the most important thing people don't know about your background. 793 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,520 Speaker 1: I'm a huge Denver Broncos fan. Um no, I I 794 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 1: from Denver. You know. I I struggled. That's all these 795 00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,240 Speaker 1: questions this morning. I struggled with that one. And um, 796 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,680 Speaker 1: you know, I think it's Uh, I think it's something. 797 00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:07,319 Speaker 1: And we talked a little bit about this, that you're 798 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,160 Speaker 1: taking these risks early on your career. Um, and it's 799 00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:12,439 Speaker 1: it's something I talked to about, especially to younger women 800 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,360 Speaker 1: who are who are coming into finance. But um, you know, 801 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:20,280 Speaker 1: taking risks, it's taking calculated risks. It's just it's just important. 802 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:22,920 Speaker 1: And I did that when I left finance temporarily to 803 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,640 Speaker 1: go to Washington, and then I helped, you know, in 804 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:27,919 Speaker 1: some ways create this role at Pimcoes role had never 805 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 1: existed before. And if I hadn't spoken up, if I 806 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,520 Speaker 1: hadn't made the case for why this was important from 807 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:38,480 Speaker 1: a business and an investment perspective, I wouldn't be here today. 808 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:40,359 Speaker 1: So I so, I don't know whether this is something 809 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:42,000 Speaker 1: that I want people to know about me, but I 810 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 1: do think when reflecting on my career, it's something that's 811 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,960 Speaker 1: held me in goodstead by taking calculated risks, by speaking 812 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:52,520 Speaker 1: up um, and you know, by sort of by by 813 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,120 Speaker 1: risking failure. And I think that's a that's a hard 814 00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,319 Speaker 1: it's a hard thing to do. Tell us about some 815 00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:01,279 Speaker 1: of your mentors who helped god your career. Law Well, 816 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,080 Speaker 1: so you know, my my U I have to say, 817 00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:09,400 Speaker 1: my my my mom is important because my my parents 818 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,040 Speaker 1: got divorced. My mom hadn't worked um, and she went 819 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,799 Speaker 1: back to work at a pretty difficult time because she 820 00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:20,160 Speaker 1: had to. And I think seeing her her kind of 821 00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:24,840 Speaker 1: resilience and her grit um, you know, just sort of 822 00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:28,080 Speaker 1: solidified the importance of well, first of all, it's the 823 00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,040 Speaker 1: importance of work for me that I think as a 824 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:34,120 Speaker 1: especially as a woman. UM. You know, my view is 825 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:36,879 Speaker 1: that the work is just really important. It gives you, 826 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,200 Speaker 1: um obviously gives you, you know, some professional identity, but 827 00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:42,919 Speaker 1: it also gives you economic independence. And I think that 828 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,120 Speaker 1: UM was certainly you know, underscored to me during this 829 00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,239 Speaker 1: kind of experience growing up. UM. And then you know 830 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,360 Speaker 1: later on, UM, this member of Congress who I worked for, 831 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,080 Speaker 1: UH in the in the state legislature and then later 832 00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:58,920 Speaker 1: in the House of Representatives, she really in some ways 833 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:01,840 Speaker 1: exemplified But UM, I hope I am. Now you know, 834 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:05,120 Speaker 1: she was a real professional. She was dedicated to her work. 835 00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:08,719 Speaker 1: She was ambitious. But at the same time, she was 836 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,600 Speaker 1: a mother, and she was you know, a friend and 837 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,319 Speaker 1: a wife and all of those things. I mean again 838 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:17,600 Speaker 1: sounds kind of cheesy, UM, but to see that, and 839 00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:19,719 Speaker 1: I really do believe when we were talking about this 840 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:23,120 Speaker 1: about you know, women mentors in Wall Street, but you 841 00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:25,440 Speaker 1: have to you know, you could only be what you 842 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,120 Speaker 1: can see, and I think see working for this woman 843 00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,080 Speaker 1: while when I was a teenager UM and sort of 844 00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:34,080 Speaker 1: seeing her struggle with a parenthood and running for Congress. 845 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,239 Speaker 1: You know, really just again kind of reffirmed that you 846 00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:38,960 Speaker 1: can do it. It's just that takes a lot of 847 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,240 Speaker 1: hard work and persistence. Let's talk a little bit about books. 848 00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,680 Speaker 1: You have to travel a decent amount of What what 849 00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,879 Speaker 1: do you read for other than those PDFs that that 850 00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:51,719 Speaker 1: get produced by PIMCO. What do you read for pleasure? 851 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:57,440 Speaker 1: Mark either fiction nonfiction market related? I would I read both, right, 852 00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:00,560 Speaker 1: So I read um. In terms of non fiction, I 853 00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:04,399 Speaker 1: read a lot of presidential history, which I think has 854 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:10,200 Speaker 1: been in some ways reassuring or interesting during this period 855 00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,680 Speaker 1: of time to sort of see you read about what 856 00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:15,799 Speaker 1: we went through in the nineteenth century or or what 857 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:21,600 Speaker 1: have you. How chaotic that has been. Um uh, well 858 00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:25,640 Speaker 1: so so I just I just downloaded um grant by 859 00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,600 Speaker 1: Chair now, which is supposed to be supposed to be amazing. 860 00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:30,279 Speaker 1: And then on the other hand, I like to read 861 00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:33,480 Speaker 1: fiction too, because to what we were talking about earlier, 862 00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:36,080 Speaker 1: there's just been no escape from the news psychle and 863 00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:38,440 Speaker 1: so to read and I was, you know, read fire 864 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:42,279 Speaker 1: and Fury, and I just like too much too much 865 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,400 Speaker 1: right back in there. I had the exact same reaction 866 00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,280 Speaker 1: to you. I read the first thirty pages and I'm like, wait, 867 00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:50,600 Speaker 1: now I'm doing this when the TV is offen. You know, 868 00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:52,480 Speaker 1: I know I ended up. I ended up feeling like 869 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:54,200 Speaker 1: I had to read it for my job, but it 870 00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:56,520 Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily for pleasure. I felt like it was more 871 00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:59,960 Speaker 1: of a work assignment, um than anything else. So, you know, 872 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,960 Speaker 1: I like novels, but honestly, I think like other folks 873 00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:07,040 Speaker 1: have said, you know, I'm being a worker, working and traveling, 874 00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:08,839 Speaker 1: and then being a parent doesn't allow me a lot, 875 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:10,799 Speaker 1: and then having to read the news. So honestly, I 876 00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,040 Speaker 1: go to bed reading Twitter, and I wake up reading Twitter, 877 00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,040 Speaker 1: which is that I don't think it's healthy long term. No, 878 00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:20,080 Speaker 1: it's definitely not healthy. Well unless you mute with with 879 00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:24,600 Speaker 1: great extreme prejudice, if you're muting people who are just 880 00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:30,319 Speaker 1: I can't read another screed and threaded um fest. I'm 881 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:32,440 Speaker 1: just I'm done with this guy, unless you are an 882 00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:37,560 Speaker 1: aggressive muter. Yeah, it's just painful. Yeah, it's just it 883 00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:41,160 Speaker 1: doesn't feels just relentless. So so tell us what has 884 00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,759 Speaker 1: changed over the course of your career within finance. Are 885 00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:48,840 Speaker 1: you seeing progress or is it still a glacial pace 886 00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:52,560 Speaker 1: of change? You know, I think again, you know, going 887 00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:54,920 Speaker 1: back to our discussion at least about gender and just 888 00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:58,120 Speaker 1: about diversity in general, you know, you know, ethnicity and 889 00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:01,480 Speaker 1: what have you. I, um it did that has been glacial. 890 00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:05,360 Speaker 1: I don't think that looks very different. Um But in 891 00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:07,719 Speaker 1: a big butt here, I think there is much more 892 00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:11,240 Speaker 1: of a commitment of an awareness, a commitment on boards, 893 00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:14,120 Speaker 1: the commitment among management teams to actually change things and 894 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:17,480 Speaker 1: not again, not just creating a woman's network and having 895 00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:20,280 Speaker 1: a woman you know, talk over glasses of wine about 896 00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:24,800 Speaker 1: whatever it's really about. You know, a fundamental commitment to change. 897 00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:28,120 Speaker 1: And I think that does feel like it's changing. And 898 00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:31,040 Speaker 1: you know, I think the data is really compelling on this. 899 00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,239 Speaker 1: And this is what we've been trying to make. The 900 00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,760 Speaker 1: argument other folks and our clients are making this argument 901 00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:38,680 Speaker 1: to us as well, is that diverse teams lead to 902 00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:42,279 Speaker 1: better outcomes from a performance from a from a financial perspective. 903 00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:44,359 Speaker 1: So this is not just a question of it would 904 00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:46,040 Speaker 1: be nice to have. This is a question of the 905 00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,279 Speaker 1: must have because it really is drives the bottom line. 906 00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,359 Speaker 1: Avoid group think. Can it's never a bit exactly right? 907 00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:54,480 Speaker 1: Tell us about a time you failed and what you 908 00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:58,640 Speaker 1: learned from the experience. Oh gosh, I mean I feel 909 00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:01,600 Speaker 1: like I fail every day. Um, you know, I I 910 00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:04,640 Speaker 1: you know, I joke, but I do feel in some ways. Again, 911 00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:07,279 Speaker 1: I think it's just a juggling. Uh, you know, not 912 00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,080 Speaker 1: to put too much of a point on this, but 913 00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,480 Speaker 1: having two small children and trying to do what and that. 914 00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:14,279 Speaker 1: You know, we haven't really talked about this, but I 915 00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:16,920 Speaker 1: also co had our New York office here, and so 916 00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:18,799 Speaker 1: I just have a lot of my a lot of 917 00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:21,799 Speaker 1: my plate, and invariably I feel like I'm letting somebody down. 918 00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:25,200 Speaker 1: I'm not doing something. Um, whether it's you know, usually 919 00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:29,440 Speaker 1: work takes priority over over my kids. Um, even though 920 00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:31,480 Speaker 1: my kids are my of course my number one priority, 921 00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:33,279 Speaker 1: and so is my husband. If he was listening to 922 00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:38,239 Speaker 1: them to this that in there, he's probably tuned out 923 00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:43,680 Speaker 1: a couple of pages. Nobody else is. UM. But but 924 00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:45,520 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, you know, again not just kind 925 00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:47,640 Speaker 1: of be tripe, but I think that you just realized that, 926 00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:54,000 Speaker 1: you know, nobody has going into working starting to work 927 00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:55,960 Speaker 1: at twenty two. You sort of think that you look 928 00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:58,440 Speaker 1: up to the especially the women at thirty or forty, 929 00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:00,600 Speaker 1: and they think that they have a figured out I 930 00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:02,360 Speaker 1: think as I realized I just turned ford to you 931 00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:04,920 Speaker 1: just realized that you never figured this out, and that's okay, 932 00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,800 Speaker 1: and you sort of have to give yourself the freedom 933 00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:12,400 Speaker 1: in order to fail but also to rectify things. Um. 934 00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,080 Speaker 1: So you know, I just keep I keep just trying 935 00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:17,239 Speaker 1: and trying, is you know. And I this again a 936 00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:19,319 Speaker 1: kind of a lesson from my mom, is that you 937 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:23,239 Speaker 1: just you know, persistence is important. And I think persistence 938 00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:25,480 Speaker 1: can get you can get you far. What do you 939 00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:30,120 Speaker 1: do outside of the office to relax and just kick back? Oh, 940 00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:34,040 Speaker 1: I go to my my six year old karates karate classes. Uh. 941 00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:38,160 Speaker 1: You know again there's I do I and I uh, 942 00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:40,400 Speaker 1: I really I do have a lot of Um. I 943 00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:41,960 Speaker 1: spent a lot of time with my kids on the weekend. 944 00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:45,000 Speaker 1: Of course. Um you know, I try to I try 945 00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:46,640 Speaker 1: to work out, but I have a three and a 946 00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:48,960 Speaker 1: six year old, so they're pretty unforgiving when I when 947 00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,920 Speaker 1: I'm around, they you know, they want my um, they 948 00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,880 Speaker 1: want my time. But um, you know, I think I 949 00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:56,880 Speaker 1: wouldn't have it any other way, right, I wouldn't have it. 950 00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:00,000 Speaker 1: I think that being a mom makes me a better employee, 951 00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:02,279 Speaker 1: and being an employee and be having having a career 952 00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:04,760 Speaker 1: makes me a better mom Um. So it's it's hectic, 953 00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:07,480 Speaker 1: but I wouldn't do any differently. So what sort of 954 00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:09,880 Speaker 1: advice would you give to a millennial or a recent 955 00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:15,719 Speaker 1: college graduate who was considering a career in finance. Yeah, 956 00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:18,160 Speaker 1: that's a that's a that's a good question. I mean 957 00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:20,000 Speaker 1: I think, you know, I think, um, by the way, 958 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:23,759 Speaker 1: these are all I think they are all. That's yet 959 00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:27,680 Speaker 1: that is yet another good question. Very Uh, you know, 960 00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:30,080 Speaker 1: you know what I think is and I see this 961 00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:32,440 Speaker 1: you know in our in our New York office that 962 00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:37,799 Speaker 1: hasn't even a more disproportionate number of millennial millennial folks, UM, 963 00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:39,920 Speaker 1: but that their voice is really important. And I think 964 00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:41,879 Speaker 1: what we're seeing this is sort of seeing this in Parkland, right, 965 00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:44,640 Speaker 1: is that UM, I guess they're not that's not technically 966 00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:46,759 Speaker 1: the millennial generation, but but what have you but that 967 00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:51,319 Speaker 1: this kind of younger generation with a fresher perspective is 968 00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,719 Speaker 1: really important. And UM, I think they need to be 969 00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:58,080 Speaker 1: realistic about how much they can change in organizations. But 970 00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:02,520 Speaker 1: that shouldn't necessarily prevent UM from speaking up, from trying 971 00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:05,040 Speaker 1: to make change. And we we found that in our 972 00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:07,560 Speaker 1: at listener in New York office at PIMCO that we've 973 00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:10,000 Speaker 1: really a lot of the change that we've instituted the 974 00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:12,719 Speaker 1: last two years from a cultural perspective has come from 975 00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:17,040 Speaker 1: those folks because they've made suggestions. Um and they have 976 00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:19,680 Speaker 1: a totally different perspective. And I think growing up with 977 00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:22,919 Speaker 1: social media is just totally changing this generation and there 978 00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:26,200 Speaker 1: and their perspective. Um and and I think it is 979 00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:30,920 Speaker 1: moving these sort of you know, um not not you know, 980 00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:33,759 Speaker 1: these kind of older or more traditional organizations in a 981 00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,760 Speaker 1: in a really positive way. So I would say, you know, joined, 982 00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:41,280 Speaker 1: don't don't be discouraged by sort of financial services joined 983 00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:44,640 Speaker 1: financial services, but also be prepared to to speak up 984 00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:46,920 Speaker 1: and try to make some change. And our final question, 985 00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:48,920 Speaker 1: what is it that you know about the world of 986 00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:53,000 Speaker 1: investing and public policy today that you wish you knew 987 00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:57,479 Speaker 1: fifteen twenty years ago when you came out of business. Wow, 988 00:52:57,719 --> 00:52:59,759 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's changing every single day. So 989 00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:04,360 Speaker 1: it's uh, um, you know, I think, um, you know, 990 00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:06,719 Speaker 1: in some ways, it's some ways I was lucky, right 991 00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:11,000 Speaker 1: because I think I saw that Washington didn't speak Wall 992 00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:14,200 Speaker 1: Street language, and Wall Street didn't speak Washington language. UM. 993 00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:16,799 Speaker 1: So I think in fifteen fifteen years back I wish 994 00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:18,879 Speaker 1: I had more confidence that that was really the case, 995 00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:22,080 Speaker 1: that there was really a need for this. UM and 996 00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:24,080 Speaker 1: uh and I think what we're you know, what we're 997 00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:26,319 Speaker 1: seeing here is that markets really are influenced by what's 998 00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:30,640 Speaker 1: going on in Washington and and and and policymakers. So UM, 999 00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:32,160 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's what I wish I knew, 1000 00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:34,080 Speaker 1: but I but I but again, I think that this 1001 00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:37,000 Speaker 1: bridge between the two is really important. I think will 1002 00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:40,640 Speaker 1: become even more important going forward. We have been speaking 1003 00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:45,720 Speaker 1: with pimco's Libby Cantrell. She runs the Office of Public 1004 00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:50,560 Speaker 1: Policy and Government Affairs at PIMCO. If you enjoy this conversation, 1005 00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:52,680 Speaker 1: be sure and look up an Inch or down an 1006 00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:57,040 Speaker 1: inch on Apple, iTunes, overcast, SoundCloud, wherever you find your 1007 00:53:57,080 --> 00:53:59,399 Speaker 1: favorite podcasts, and you could see any of the other 1008 00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:04,000 Speaker 1: two hundred or so such conversations we've had. We love 1009 00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:08,200 Speaker 1: your comments, feedback and suggestions right to us at m 1010 00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:11,760 Speaker 1: IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net. I would be remiss 1011 00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:14,400 Speaker 1: if I did not thank Mike crack staff that helps 1012 00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:18,360 Speaker 1: put together these podcasts each week. Uh Medina Parwana is 1013 00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:22,600 Speaker 1: our audio engineer. Slash producer. Taylor Riggs is our booker. 1014 00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:26,240 Speaker 1: Michael Batnick is my head of research. I'm Barry Ridholts. 1015 00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:29,840 Speaker 1: You've been listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.