1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,560 Speaker 1: So I guess it can start just by you introduce yourself. 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 2: My name is Korean. 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 3: I'm from Brazil. 4 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 2: I moved here with my family when I was sixteen 5 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:16,479 Speaker 2: years old, and at first was supposed just to be 6 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 2: one year to learn English. 7 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: But once they got to the US, Kardina's mom decided 8 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: to stay, so they've lived here ever since. Still, Kaardina 9 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,319 Speaker 1: has family back in Brazil, so she asked us only 10 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: to use her first name to protect them. 11 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 2: It's in my personal anality to question everything since day 12 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:38,559 Speaker 2: one that I understand myself as a person, but I 13 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 2: needed help. 14 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: Kadina was a single mom getting out of an abusive 15 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: relationship and dealing with mental illness. Despite how tough she 16 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: sounds today, it's important to her to make clear that 17 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: back in twenty thirteen, she was not herself. 18 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 2: The grief of ending that relationship that was abusive, the 19 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 2: grief of leaving the sun behind, the grief of things 20 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 2: not been working for a long time here. Basically I 21 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 2: had no will to live. I was not gonna kill 22 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 2: myself because I don't believe in suicide, but I would pray, 23 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 2: say I hope I go to bed tonight, and I 24 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 2: just don't wake up that I had it every day. 25 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: She tells me her mind was just not there, and 26 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: that's when she came across an interview on TV that 27 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:27,960 Speaker 1: caught her attention. 28 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 2: I think I was thirty two or thirty three, and 29 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 2: then I had watched the Oprah Show promoting John of God. 30 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 4: This is an interview. I wasn't sure whatever happened one 31 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 4: of the most fams. 32 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 2: I mean, she did a great job convincing that it 33 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 2: was great. I wasn't the only one that went there. 34 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 2: I tell you that. 35 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: There are many inflection points and the story of how 36 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: John of God rose to fame, but this is the 37 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: one that came him up again and again in my 38 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: interviews for this series. 39 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 3: The Oprah Factor. 40 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 5: When Oprah was there, I visit that he was visited 41 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 5: by ministers and politicians, celebrity, died by celebrities, even. 42 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 4: The crowning of the expansion of the movement. Of course, 43 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 4: when Oprah Winfrey went. 44 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 1: This last voice belongs to Christina Rosa. She's a professor 45 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: of anthropology in Australia, but she's originally from Brazil. When 46 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: she first became aware of John of God, she was 47 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: mostly interested in his popularity among foreigners. She couldn't help, 48 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: but wonder. 49 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 4: Why foreigners, who have the best hospitals, best doctors in 50 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 4: their own countries, they would fly to Brazil, a long flight, 51 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,119 Speaker 4: to be in a village that doesn't have hospital if 52 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 4: something goes wrong, and to be operated on by this 53 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 4: guy whom they coun't community with, who lives in a 54 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 4: little village in Nebinov nowhere, and he cuts people open 55 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 4: with no accepsies or anesthetics. 56 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: Christina spent more than a decade trying to find an answer. 57 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: It's a story that starts when John of God was 58 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: just Choau, a man raised in a really poor tone, 59 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: reportedly without knowing how to read or write. He had 60 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: a history of run ins with the law and had 61 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: been accused of being a fraud, and thanks to a 62 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: series of calculated decisions over the course of several decades, 63 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: he went from that to becoming an internationally renowned and 64 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: influential healer who would draw thousands of people to believe 65 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: in him from exactly Right media and adonde media. This 66 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: is two faced John of God. I'm your host, Martinez Castro, 67 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: Episode two. A Healer is born. When was the first 68 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: time you ever heard of John of God. 69 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 3: Well, I can't remember the first time, because he was 70 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 3: huge in Brazil. It was like part of our you know, 71 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 3: system identity. It was like a thing in Brazil to 72 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 3: go to John of God. 73 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: This is Christina Phoebe, a Brazilian journalist. Just to be clear, 74 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: this is not Christina Roscha who you heard at the beginning. 75 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: You're gonna hear from two Christina's in this episode, and 76 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: both of them have written books on John of God. 77 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 1: This Christina knew very well who John of God was 78 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:51,679 Speaker 1: at the height of his fame, but it wasn't until 79 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: she did the research for her book that she learned 80 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: who he was before that. Even then, Christina says, the 81 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: story she uncovered included a lot of inconsistencies. What she 82 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: was able to confirm is that way before he was 83 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: known as John of God, he was simply Joau Tisheeda 84 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: de Fadilla born in nineteen forty one in a small 85 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 1: town in Goyas, a state in the center of Brazil. 86 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 3: And when he was growing up very very poor family. 87 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 3: The family was like trying to, you know, make some 88 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 3: money out of anything. 89 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 1: Some people say Joao's mother was poalem reader or fortune teller. 90 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: Others that his father was a tailor and that he 91 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: sold herbal remedies to make ends meet. But what is 92 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 1: clear is that Joao, the youngest of six siblings, was 93 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: learning the family business from an early age. 94 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 3: So he learned a few things, like he learned to 95 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 3: do those like it's a drink to curee things. And 96 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 3: he would say that he read the future as a 97 00:05:59,360 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 3: small child. 98 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 6: He did that. 99 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 3: So it was like a family doing anything will survive. 100 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 6: You know. 101 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: A story Joao himself is told many times is about 102 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: when he first discovers his ability to predict the future. 103 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 1: It's unclear whether he was nine or sixteen years old. 104 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: Juel himself has claimed it happened at different ages throughout 105 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: the years, but what is consistent is the story of 106 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: what happened. Juau was walking with his mom down a 107 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: dirt road on a sunny day, not a cloud in 108 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: the sky, but he turns to her and says a 109 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 1: big storm is coming, even pointed out the houses that 110 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: would be destroyed by it. A storm did actually hit 111 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: the town and caused forty structures to collapse. This mythical 112 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: origin story is repeated again and again by news outlets 113 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: and Choau himself. But it's important to point out that 114 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 1: the claims of this kind of clairvoyance or supernatural power, 115 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: they weren't unique where Joau grew up. The concept of 116 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: healers and mediums was very common in central Brazil. 117 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 3: And there were also at this time a few healers 118 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 3: that used the techniques that John of God would use 119 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 3: after cutting people without any medical preparation or you know. 120 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: There are even videos of some famous healers conducting very 121 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: similar surgeries back in the nineteen forties. But Christina says 122 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: Joelle's path to becoming jul Dedeos or John of God 123 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: didn't begin in earnest until he joined the military in 124 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four. 125 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 3: Very very young. He went to the military. It was 126 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:44,239 Speaker 3: at that time we had a military dictatorship in Brazil, 127 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 3: so he very early understood that he needed to be 128 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 3: close to powerful people so he would get rid of 129 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 3: any accusations and stuff. 130 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: That's because it was actually illegal in Brazil to perform 131 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: anything that could be perceived this medical treatment. If you 132 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: weren't a doctor, you could be fined or thrown in jail. 133 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: It's unclear what Joa did while he was in the military. 134 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: But we do know he traveled to bases around the country. 135 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: Christina also says Joa worked for a time sewing and 136 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: repairing military uniforms. 137 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 3: And then while he did that, he began to cure 138 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 3: military for you know, and tell them that he had 139 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 3: such powers and stuff. So they would recommend him for 140 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 3: another one and another one, and that started like the 141 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 3: idea around him that he was able to do that. 142 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 3: So I feel like he constructed this personality very smartly 143 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:45,319 Speaker 3: and slowly. 144 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: So in the military is where Christina says Joao gained 145 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: some credibility and powerful friends. When he left military service, 146 00:08:56,400 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 1: he went to Annapolis, a city in the state of Goyas. 147 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 3: And he he just made like a small house, a 148 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 3: small living room where he would receive people to cure 149 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 3: and to do spiritual healing and stuff. And they spread 150 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 3: the word and they started to making very huge lines. 151 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 3: And then he was denounced for the local council of medicine. 152 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,679 Speaker 1: It was still illegal in Brazil to practice medicine if 153 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: you weren't a formally trained doctor. So Joel speaks of 154 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,359 Speaker 1: this phase of his life as a time of persecution. 155 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: He is said to have been thrown in jail several times. 156 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: He sets up this idea that he turns on for 157 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: decades that the traditional medical establishment was out to get 158 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 1: him because of his healing powers. 159 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 3: So he was sort of expelled from Annapolis to Abijina 160 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 3: and he goes to a Biginia in Accordo. In an arrangement. 161 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 3: He makes an arrangement with the mayor. My take into 162 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 3: this is my interpretation, is he needed a place to 163 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 3: get established and secure people. He had lines and everyone 164 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 3: wanted him, and the mayor needed any economic savior, any 165 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 3: financial source, anything going on in a town that where 166 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 3: nothing goes on. 167 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: So a kind of pact is made between Joel and 168 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 1: the mayor of Abadiana, the place where he would really 169 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: grow his empire. 170 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 3: So they did an arrangement and they gave John of 171 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 3: got a little house and a big area so he 172 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:41,319 Speaker 3: could establish himself. 173 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: And that little house was named the Casa de Dominacio 174 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: de Loyola. It officially opened its doors in nineteen seventy 175 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: nine and became the spiritual hospital at the center of 176 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: this international movement. Christina says word spread quickly of Joel's arrival. 177 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 3: And very quickly he was like whoa huge lines and 178 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 3: lines and many many people going for him. 179 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: The city at the time had little to know infrastructure. 180 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: According to one source, the town had two hostels with 181 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:18,199 Speaker 1: maybe twenty beds smacks, and most roads weren't even paved. 182 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: Over the coming years, as you well grew in popularity, 183 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 1: people in Abadianya would seize on this new opportunity. They 184 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: would start taxi services or driving buses, open new restaurants 185 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,199 Speaker 1: and hostels called posadas. 186 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 3: So it was like a big business deal to be 187 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 3: friends with John of God and to open a hotel 188 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 3: because it was going to be huge. So you could 189 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 3: run like the bus business, the taxi business, the spiritual 190 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 3: healing cristals whatever. It was like very diversified. You could 191 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 3: do so many things if John of God was there, 192 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 3: So very quickly they learned that they had to protect 193 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 3: him and protect the possibility of him to cure people, 194 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 3: you know, to run the business. It's a business, and 195 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 3: everyone around him knew that they were part of the business. 196 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 1: It was a multimillion dollar business. By some estimates, the 197 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: GASA alone was bringing in revenue of almost one hundred 198 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: and thirty five thousand dollars a month. That doesn't include 199 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: donations or the commissions. Huau received from every person who 200 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: did business related to the GASA. Over the course of 201 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: the following decades, Chouau takes a hold of this town's 202 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: economy and he cleverly sets his sights on what will 203 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: cause this business behind the GASA to really take off 204 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: foreign visitors. 205 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 4: I was in Australia and I started hearing people saying, oh, 206 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 4: you're from Brazil, you must know John of God. 207 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: That's Christina Rosche again, the professor. By the way, she 208 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: sounds a little muffled because she wore a mask during 209 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 1: our interview. She says around nineteen ninety eight nineteen ninety nine, 210 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: when she was studying for a PhD in Australia, she 211 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:16,199 Speaker 1: had no idea who John of God was. But oddly enough. 212 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 4: He was pretty famous in Australia because a lot of 213 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 4: people from all walks of life, So from the hairdresser 214 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 4: to the dance teacher to somebody at the university doing 215 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 4: the PhD with May. Everybody was saying, look, do you 216 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 4: know John of God? He's very famous. And I would 217 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 4: say no, I don't, and they would say, so you're 218 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 4: not Brazilian. Because he is so famous, you know you 219 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 4: should know him. 220 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: So the next time Christina went back to Brazil to 221 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: visit family, she decided to go to Abadienya to see 222 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: what all the fuss was about. This was in two 223 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: thousand and three. She says, what she saw when she 224 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: first arrived totally caught her off guard. 225 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 4: Imagine two thousand and three, there was no what we 226 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 4: call broadband, no not even wi fi broadband in tiny little 227 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 4: villages in central Brazil. 228 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: But in Abadiana, this rural, middle of nowhere town, there 229 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: was WiFi and much much more. 230 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 4: They had, you know, cafes with the menu all in English, 231 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 4: and they had things that he would get not in 232 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 4: Saint Paulo a Rio, like drinks and things that he 233 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 4: would have in Sydney, the cool you know, flat white 234 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 4: kind of thing or dandelion lattice and stuff, and they 235 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 4: had it there. And I was like, what is this place? 236 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 4: And all, you know, the Tibetan flags and all this, 237 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 4: and most people spoke English and other languages, not Portuguese. 238 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: She was so intrigued, and her curiosity was piqued for 239 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: professional reasons. Christina's specialty is religion and migration, So when 240 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: she saw this growing international community going to Abadiania to 241 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: receive these rude of me entry surgeries at the CASA. 242 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: She decided she just had to find out more. 243 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 4: So I studied that from two thousand and four to 244 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 4: two thousand and fourteen fifteen, and the book came out 245 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 4: in early twenty seventeen. 246 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: But there's an important thing to know about how Christina 247 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,239 Speaker 1: approached the decades she researched John of God and his community. 248 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 4: As an anthropologist, I do participant observation and interviews, and 249 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 4: participant observation is to be with people for so long 250 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 4: that you mostly you learn from them and you learn 251 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 4: from your own body. 252 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: This means Christina lived and meditated with Joel's followers, which 253 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: is to say she was very close to the movement 254 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: and was considered a part of it in many ways. 255 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: Throughout her research, she had a central driving question. 256 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 4: Why they were interested in this guy and would go 257 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 4: to great lengths and spend a lot of money to 258 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 4: get there and try to get here by him? And 259 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 4: also I wanted to know how this global movement expanded. 260 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: To answer all of these questions, Christina says, you have 261 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: to understand what drew foreigners in One was the unique 262 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: mix of beliefs John of God brought together under his 263 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: brand of spirituality. 264 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 4: So John of God was born Catholic, but with popular Catholicism, 265 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 4: a lot of praying, a lot of blessings and all this. 266 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 4: But he also was a high priest of Umbanda, which 267 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 4: is a for Brazilian religion, and he also follows Spiritism, 268 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 4: which he also encounter around Brazil. 269 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 1: This mix included New Age concepts, making for an accessible 270 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: and flexible set of beliefs that left room for everyone 271 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: to feel identified with some part of it. Buddhist concepts 272 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: about past lives, karma, and ben carnation were also part 273 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: of the belief system that was promoted at the CASA. 274 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 4: So the idea of charity is key here. It's through 275 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 4: charity that you grow spiritually. It's through charity that you 276 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 4: get healed. And these spirits will heal you because they 277 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 4: also are doing acts of charity. 278 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: So those spirits that are channeled by John of God 279 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,640 Speaker 1: are coming back to improve their own karma by healing 280 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 1: people through mediums like him. This belief system offered international 281 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 1: visitors to John of God something they hadn't been able 282 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: to find anywhere else. 283 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 4: So in one word, I could say, they get meaning. 284 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 4: It makes meaning, It makes sense. Finally, their illness makes 285 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 4: sense because there is an explanation, a religious explanation or 286 00:17:55,760 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 4: a philosophical explanation for the healing is perceived as karma 287 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 4: resulting from past lives and actions. So you'd sort of 288 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 4: like similar to the New Age thinking, you chose this 289 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 4: life and you chose this ullness because you needed to 290 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 4: learn something in this life, right, So uness is an 291 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 4: opportunity for you to learn to grow spiritually. It is 292 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 4: about transformation. 293 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 1: To top it off, you get to tackle this transformation 294 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: with the whole community of people who are going through 295 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 1: similar life experiences, which for Christina is perhaps the most 296 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 1: essential ingredient to the magic of the Casa. 297 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 4: There was a feeling of being on holidays like you 298 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 4: have all the tropical juices and the tropical fruits and foods. 299 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 4: You had a waterfall to go to the weekends, you 300 00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:01,160 Speaker 4: traveled a bed, went into the countryside, or just walked around. 301 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 4: There was a lot of community and making friends from 302 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:09,640 Speaker 4: all over the world and seeing yourself in other people's stories. 303 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 4: Why are you here and the other person say, oh, 304 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 4: I have cancer, and this first person saying me too, 305 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 4: what are you taking? What kind of cancer are you taking? 306 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,400 Speaker 4: This medicine. What did your doctor tell you? So there 307 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 4: was a lot of engagement with each other, and they 308 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 4: found peers. They found people who were suffering and undergoing 309 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 4: the same life crisis, could be divorced, could be you know, 310 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 4: or even people were not seeking they were just seeking 311 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 4: meaning in life. 312 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: These elements a blend of New Age spiritual beliefs, community, 313 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: and the sense that they were connecting to a more 314 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 1: authentic and spiritual place. We're all on display at the Casa, 315 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: and they were all tied to the magnetism of John 316 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 1: of God. But this wasn't by accident, it was by design. 317 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 1: Even the visible surgeries, like the scissors up the nose, 318 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: those were a spectacle meant to get the most skeptical 319 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 1: of the visitors to believe in Joao and the spirits. 320 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: Christina says Joeau talked about it openly with her. 321 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 4: They are not necessary John of God a million times, 322 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 4: says a million times that day. But people don't believe. 323 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 4: So it's good to see something absurd and extraordinary like this. 324 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:43,199 Speaker 4: People is standing up and being operated on and not 325 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 4: having infections because they would believe that the entities were there. 326 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: And the strategy worked despite there being many spiritual healers 327 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 1: in Brazil, John of God was the one who broke 328 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: through to become internationally famous. 329 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 4: There are many Hellas in Brazil and they haven't become 330 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 4: that famous. John of God doesn't speak any English. His 331 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 4: Portuguese is Rudimentry, so he has very little schooling. Although 332 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 4: he's a very clever man, I would say. 333 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 1: According to Christina, John of God made a few smart 334 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 1: decisions that made all the difference. The first was in 335 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,359 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven, when he allowed an Australian follower of 336 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 1: his to write an official biography about him in English, 337 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: which was later translated into many languages. John of God 338 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: also did select interviews with the press and filmed documentaries. 339 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: All of these ultimately served as ways to spread the 340 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 1: word about his work. He also enlisted the help of 341 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: international volunteers to become tour guides. He would tell people 342 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: that their mission was to bring people from their home 343 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: countries to the CASA, but unlike typical volunteers, they were 344 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: allowed to charge for this service as much as two 345 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 1: to three thousand dollars per traveler. At least one tour 346 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: guide I spoke with said guides made hundreds of thousands 347 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 1: of dollars a year, bringing people who would in turn 348 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: become guides themselves. The number of visitors ballooned so much 349 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: during the early two thousands that other businesses boomed as well. 350 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: Many of the local Posada owners are rumored to have 351 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 1: become millionaires during this time in. 352 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 4: Time, there were so many tour guides and the number 353 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 4: of guesthouses increased so much that at the end there 354 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 4: were seventy two pozades guest houses in four streets. 355 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 1: Christina says another key to Joelle's growth and popularity was 356 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: his decision to take his healing sessions on the road. 357 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: He held sold out international healing events in Australia. 358 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 4: He went to Germany, to the US. He went every 359 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 4: year for many years to upstate New York, a place 360 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:58,360 Speaker 4: called Omiga Center where all the New Age healers or philosophers, 361 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 4: speakers you know would come. 362 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 1: The Omega Institute has hosted some of the most respected 363 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:12,159 Speaker 1: and popular spiritual speakers in the US, such as Deepak Chopra, Pamachodron, 364 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: and Decartole. So it was tremendously validating for John of 365 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: God to get to speak there. Starting back in two 366 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: thousand and seven, you could see the impact of this. 367 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: Back in Abadiania between two thousand and twenty ten, it 368 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: was basically exploding. 369 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,479 Speaker 4: There were like five thousand people in the Kaza and 370 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 4: the Causa is a little place right and they said 371 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 4: that there were no vacancies in the guest houses, so 372 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 4: people had to stay forty kilometers away. In Annapolis, it 373 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 4: was Mayhem. It was crazy. So things were getting really 374 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 4: out of hand with the number of people and the 375 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 4: adoring crowds. 376 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:57,199 Speaker 1: And then in twenty twelve, Oprah visited Abadiania to interview 377 00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:57,919 Speaker 1: John of God. 378 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 4: That's the you know, when he's at the height of 379 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 4: his popular fame. That kind of testimonial was very powerful 380 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 4: for more people to come. 381 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: But as Joel's movement continued to expand, right under the surface, 382 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: there were unsettling things taking place, things that the people 383 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: closest to Joaou tried to ignore until they couldn't. Like 384 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 1: Marcello's to Duto, the medium who worked with Joao that 385 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 1: we met in episode one, Marcelo remembers being uncomfortable, but 386 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: the way Joao seemed to relish his popularity O. 387 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 6: Me tempia no sooki kur. 388 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,199 Speaker 5: At the same time that he said, it's not me 389 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 5: who heals, but it's got in good spirits right. However, 390 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 5: he has always been very pleased to be the greatest 391 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 5: healer in the world. You may be a healing medium, 392 00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 5: but a vanity is expressed there matresumsa, a presumption is expressed. 393 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 5: This superior that a sense of superiority. 394 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: For Marcello, this sense of superiority, the desire to be 395 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 1: around powerful politicians and celebrities, it all went against what 396 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,199 Speaker 1: he believed the work at the Casa was all about. 397 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: And what worried him most was that he could tell 398 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: No one seemed to notice this. 399 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 6: The mancheal gumaspis. 400 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 5: Obviously, some people observed this and took the necessary precaution. 401 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 6: This spirit repel, but most. 402 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 5: Go out of desperation, believe fervor, and sometimes even by 403 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 5: a certain fanaticism, and don't analyze anything. 404 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 6: Cortal line engainst in Judos. 405 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,160 Speaker 5: As long as he cuts and no one feels pain. 406 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 5: He's a god on earth and I'm only going to 407 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 5: follow him. 408 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 6: No Haspirito, all know, haspitat. 409 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 5: If he tells me not to breathe, I'm not going 410 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 5: to breathe. If he tells me to throw myself off 411 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 5: the third floor. I'm going to throw myself. 412 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 6: I know Demos's problem. 413 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 5: Then we have all the problems. 414 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: We had, very serious problems, a mysterious death, fraud and 415 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 1: sexual abuse. They didn't start in twenty twelve, but Marcello 416 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: says by then it was too late to fix what 417 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: had long been going wrong. 418 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 6: And munto trisci elma lastuma. 419 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 5: It's very sad and a pity to have to say it, 420 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 5: and to have to recognize and to have to see 421 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 5: the decadence of all. 422 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 6: This work told the way Ballio Claudo, ky Condo jen Shorav. 423 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 5: Of course, when we cried and prayed, we didn't know 424 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 5: half of everything that happened, of all the criminal acts 425 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 5: that took place Me nasus kocohero. 426 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: Next time on Two Faced John of God. 427 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 3: I was crying a lot. 428 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:57,479 Speaker 4: I was very nervous. 429 00:26:59,080 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 6: Commute. 430 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: I told her what he had done to me, and 431 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: she slapped me and told me to shut up. 432 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 6: See muntos persusabillo. 433 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 5: Yes, a lot of people knew. 434 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 4: And once she'd get there, that person he'd want to 435 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,439 Speaker 4: hold her hand. I began to get suspicious, You know, 436 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 4: who is this guy? 437 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 5: Really? 438 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: Listen to Two Faced John of God on the iHeartRadio app, 439 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. There you 440 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,919 Speaker 1: can also find this show in Espanol just look for 441 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 1: Dos Gardas Juan de Dios. Two Faced John of God 442 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: is a production of Exactly Right Media and Adonde Media, 443 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: hosted and written by myself Martina Castro. Our senior producer 444 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 1: is Mariano Paschela. Reporting and fact checking by Eloisa Trajano. 445 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: Production assistance and research by Giovanna Romano Sanchez. Sound designed 446 00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: by Mauricio Mendoza and our mastering engineer is Martin Gruz. 447 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: Original music was composed by Marianna Romano. The artwork is 448 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:09,160 Speaker 1: by Vanessa Lilac Marcellos. Toruto was interpreted by Claudio Dias 449 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: and Luciano Miranda. By andres Caabaccheo for Exactly Right Media, 450 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 1: the executive producers are Karen Kilgariff, Georgia hard Stark and 451 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: Daniel Kramer, with consulting producer Lillie Ladowig and associate producer 452 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: Jay Elias. If you're curious to know more about Christina 453 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: Rossa's research, her book is called John of God, The 454 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: Globalization of Brazilian Faith healing journalist Christina Phoebe's book about 455 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: John of God is called Joua de dios O Abuso 456 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: da Fe. Special thanks to both of them for speaking 457 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 1: with us for this series.