Speaker 1: Pushkin, armed with only what she calls poor kid work ethic.
Speaker 1: Brandy Carlisle spent the early part of her life fighting
Speaker 1: her parents, politics, the church, and fighting to be heard
Speaker 1: while singing over belligerent drunks and crowded bars. Brandy's voice
Speaker 1: demands attention, as you might recall hearing in our episode
Speaker 1: with Jack White and Brendan Benson. Her twenty nineteen Grammy
Speaker 1: performance of her song The Joke blew even her most
Speaker 1: critical of peers away. But long before that, she was
Speaker 1: already making a name for herself on stages across the
Speaker 1: Pacific Northwest, where she was raised and now lives with
Speaker 1: her twin bandmates she simply calls the Twins, and since
Speaker 1: then she's released six albums, formed The High Woman with
Speaker 1: Marion Morris and Amanda Shires, and has just generally captured
Speaker 1: the attention of the music world. In her chat with Rick,
Speaker 1: she recounts her tumultuous passed and talked about how she's
Speaker 1: learned to pick her battles over her long career. And
Speaker 1: then there's a night she witnessed a miracle at Joni
Speaker 1: Mitchell's house. This is broken record liner notes for the
Speaker 1: Digital Age I'm justin Richmond. Just a quick note here.
Speaker 1: You can listen to all of the music mentioned in
Speaker 1: this episode on our playlist, which you can find a
Speaker 1: link to in the show notes for licensing reasons, each
Speaker 1: time a song is referenced in this episode, you'll hear
Speaker 1: this sound effect. All right, enjoyed the episode. Here's Rick
Speaker 1: Rubin and Brandy Carlisle from Shangula. I remember the first
Speaker 1: time I saw you, and I don't remember how it
Speaker 1: worked out that you were on the show that I
Speaker 1: saw you at, but I saw you at a place
Speaker 1: called the wilshirt Ebel Theater. Yeah, and you're opening for
Speaker 1: James Taylor. And I was there to see James Taylor,
Speaker 1: and I didn't know you, and I don't even think
Speaker 1: I stayed to watch James Taylor. After I saw you,
Speaker 1: I was so blown away. And I remember you got
Speaker 1: a standing ovation as an as an unknown opening act. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I remember. It was like it was it was ridiculous.
Speaker 1: It was really a ridiculous performance. And the people that
Speaker 1: had come to see it, like um from Columbia Records
Speaker 1: and stuff, they told me the next day they said, God,
Speaker 1: you know, there was no way backstage at that show.
Speaker 1: But on the stage and there was no intermission between
Speaker 1: me and James, and James came out to play his
Speaker 1: first song and the whole theater saw you walk backstage
Speaker 1: during Fire and Rain and they were like, Rick Ruman's
Speaker 1: going back there. We got to sign this girl. He
Speaker 1: sees something and when he sees something, it it's real,
Speaker 1: and you know it was real. It really. I really
Speaker 1: don't think you understand how much of an impact you
Speaker 1: made in that sense, you know, happy to be of service,
Speaker 1: had no idea, but happy to be of services, sir.
Speaker 1: But you actually saw me way earlier than that. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: do you want to know? Yeah? Please? So, um, I'm
Speaker 1: writing a book and I'm not sure why I'm doing it,
Speaker 1: but there's a whole lot about you in there. Wow.
Speaker 1: Because I got asked to open for a kid, a
Speaker 1: guy called Johnny Lange in Seattle, and a guy called
Speaker 1: Brendan Mendoza was in the audience. Yeah, and I was
Speaker 1: only maybe nineteen thirty nine now, so it's a long
Speaker 1: time ago. Yeah, Brendan Mendoza. So I worked for a
Speaker 1: guy called Rick Rubin. Yeah, he was a young and
Speaker 1: our guy who worked at at American Recordings. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: he flew me to La to play for you at
Speaker 1: a swinghouse, and no recollection of that. Well, I did
Speaker 1: because it was a make or break moment in my life.
Speaker 1: That was, of course. And this is an interesting thing
Speaker 1: I've learned since I gained this notoriety for an artist,
Speaker 1: how a public person can have such an impact on
Speaker 1: another person's life without even really knowing, you know, and
Speaker 1: it's just this one of the inconsequential things. But to me,
Speaker 1: it was an enormous deal because I was being flown
Speaker 1: there to play for you, and I had got really sick,
Speaker 1: like a laryngitis, and I have this terrible paradoxical allergy
Speaker 1: to cough medicine that I didn't know about, and I
Speaker 1: took a cough medicine and I started having a neurological
Speaker 1: reaction to it. I had involuntary muscle spasms in my
Speaker 1: face and hands, and I'm sitting there trying to play
Speaker 1: my showcase for you, and I can't remember the words,
Speaker 1: and my fingers won't press down on the strings to
Speaker 1: play the chords, and I have muscle twitches in my jaw,
Speaker 1: and I just felt like my life was ending. And
Speaker 1: you interrupted my showcase and you said, is there something
Speaker 1: about you today that's making you not be yourself? And
Speaker 1: I said, yeah, I'm really sick and I think I'm
Speaker 1: having an allergic reaction to this cough medication. And you said, well,
Speaker 1: why don't you go home and get better and then
Speaker 1: come back and do this again. Wow. I was like, yeah, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: fucking right. I know I'm never going to get a
Speaker 1: chance to come back here and play for you again.
Speaker 1: And I went home, no recollection. It's unbelievable. It's a
Speaker 1: great story. I went home thinking I've blown it, and
Speaker 1: you brought me back two weeks later and I was
Speaker 1: better and I was really ready, and I played for
Speaker 1: you at Swing House and it's like, I remember what
Speaker 1: I was wearing, I remember everything. And the very first
Speaker 1: song I played for you was a song called Shadow
Speaker 1: on the Wall. And I had showcased for just about
Speaker 1: every record label and everyone passed yeah, and some people
Speaker 1: didn't even wait till I was finished singing a song
Speaker 1: before they leave the room. And I finished that song
Speaker 1: and you put your hand up and you were sitting
Speaker 1: just like that, and you said, that's a really amazing song.
Speaker 1: Will you play it again? And I knew right then
Speaker 1: that I was gonna make it. I knew it. I
Speaker 1: was like, he wants me to play it again? And
Speaker 1: I played it again and ended. You said, why don't
Speaker 1: you just play it one more time? Really again? And
Speaker 1: I played it again, and I played you two more songs,
Speaker 1: and you had me played those songs again. And by
Speaker 1: the time it had ended, I'd played three songs seven
Speaker 1: or eight times. And we had a conversation. You told
Speaker 1: me you'd just seen Damien Rice. Yeah, and Johnny Cash
Speaker 1: was still alive. Yes, And you said that you thought
Speaker 1: we would know each other and worked together down the road,
Speaker 1: and a word spread about that, and you know, it
Speaker 1: was looking like I was going to sign to American
Speaker 1: for a long time. But I remember that, and I
Speaker 1: remember what happened. I remember I was moving from one
Speaker 1: label to another. You were in total chaos at the moment, yeah,
Speaker 1: moving from one label to another. And I remember that
Speaker 1: at the new label, whereas my new distributor was going
Speaker 1: to be Warner Brothers. And I said, this is the
Speaker 1: first act that we're going to do. And I remember
Speaker 1: the Warner Brothers people didn't didn't get it and didn't
Speaker 1: like it. And I remember I couldn't believe it. It's
Speaker 1: like she's incredible. She's incredible. No one got it. You
Speaker 1: were the first one Rick to ever get it. You're
Speaker 1: the first one to ever say play that again. And
Speaker 1: so I'll never forget it. And you know that James
Speaker 1: Taylor's show that you were at, it made me look
Speaker 1: so cool. Everybody talked about it for here. Sure that
Speaker 1: the James Taylor was after the Swing House. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't remember the Swing House, but I definitely remember
Speaker 1: the James Taylor because I just couldn't believe what I
Speaker 1: was seeing. Well, your life was much different than my
Speaker 1: life was at the time, wasn't it. You know, No,
Speaker 1: I trust you one. I'm not questioning what you're saying.
Speaker 1: I'm just telling you I don't remember it. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: bet it was. You were so beloved and just popular
Speaker 1: and such an inspiration to me. Yeah, incredible, And you
Speaker 1: brought me back, you gave me a second chance. And
Speaker 1: at the James Taylor show also, Columbia Records was there,
Speaker 1: and that's when I got my deal with Columbia Records
Speaker 1: and made my first album, Amazing. And then I remember
Speaker 1: when I was at Columbia for a little while, we
Speaker 1: worked together on Give Up the Ghost whatever, Yeah, whatever
Speaker 1: album you're working on at the time, and I remember
Speaker 1: it was fun. It was fun. Yeah. Yeah, that's still
Speaker 1: my favorite album actually beautiful, Yeah, beautiful, I love it. It
Speaker 1: It was a big emotional hard time for me in
Speaker 1: my life. I don't like who I was really at
Speaker 1: that time, but um, I liked the album. Yeah, I remember.
Speaker 1: I just remember the power in the vocals was off
Speaker 1: the chart, like yeah, because you had me singing into
Speaker 1: a sm seven right, is that what they're called microphone? Yeah,
Speaker 1: And every other microphone i'd ever sang into, I would distort,
Speaker 1: so the engineer or the producer would ask me to
Speaker 1: sing differently. I end up doing a little mic control. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it messed with my performance emotionally. So I never
Speaker 1: sounded on an album like I did Live and Tell
Speaker 1: that album because we use the same mike you would
Speaker 1: use live, because you sounded good live, Yeah, And you
Speaker 1: just seems like it would be obvious now it seems
Speaker 1: like it would be obvious, but apparently it's only obvious
Speaker 1: to you. So since then, how many albums have you
Speaker 1: made seven seven as an artist? Yes, and the last
Speaker 1: one was maybe You're most well received of the bat,
Speaker 1: which is unusual in today's world because normally first couple
Speaker 1: of albums tend to do really good and then people
Speaker 1: fade away and you've only kind of continued to build
Speaker 1: over the seven albums. Yeah, yeah, because of that. But
Speaker 1: some of it has to do with just sort of
Speaker 1: like a cultural undertone, like where we are in the
Speaker 1: world right now and the perspective that the album was
Speaker 1: written from. I think it gave people comfort in a
Speaker 1: way that it resonated sort of beyond I think me
Speaker 1: as an artist and more into the sort of culturals
Speaker 1: that gust of like, I wonder if that's true. I
Speaker 1: think you're selling yourself short, do you think? I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think it belongs to the moment, but maybe maybe yes,
Speaker 1: it belongs to the moment, and yes, the moment plays
Speaker 1: a role. But the reason people like it is because
Speaker 1: you're great. And that's the real reason. Thank you. I
Speaker 1: will receive that. I think, weren't it great? And it
Speaker 1: was right in the moment, it wouldn't matter at all
Speaker 1: and nobody would notice. It's because it's great, So thank you.
Speaker 1: Tell me about your situation growing up well, Seattle, Seattle,
Speaker 1: just outside of Seattle. I started out living in the
Speaker 1: airport town outside of Seattle seatach Burian area. We moved
Speaker 1: out to a single white trailer in the middle of
Speaker 1: the country when I started fifth grade, and up until
Speaker 1: that point we were only allowed to listen to like
Speaker 1: classic country and western music. It's what my mother sang
Speaker 1: and her father and big country music family. Where were
Speaker 1: they from Oklahoma and the well they went up north,
Speaker 1: so Oklahoma. Both sides of the family were actually from Oklahoma,
Speaker 1: and some of them just migrated around, you know, the country.
Speaker 1: My great grandparents lived in an RV. They just toured
Speaker 1: around following bluegrass festivals, the really small ones, you know.
Speaker 1: So it was always a musical family. Yeah, yeah, a
Speaker 1: musical family without us really even knowing where a musical family,
Speaker 1: we thought all families or musical families. So everybody played,
Speaker 1: everybody played something or supported it in some way. And
Speaker 1: then my mother side of the family went from there
Speaker 1: to up north between Fargo and Minneapolis, plays called Wobin
Speaker 1: northern Minnesota. They started the whole it's not Southern, it's
Speaker 1: Western thing about country music and moved west and so
Speaker 1: country music was our family's thing, and I got out
Speaker 1: to the country for the first time and started to
Speaker 1: feel weird, started to feel weird and gay, and I
Speaker 1: picked up a fifth grade book report on a kid
Speaker 1: called Ryan White who died of AIDS in nineteen ninety one.
Speaker 1: He was a hemophiliac and when he was diagnosed with HIV,
Speaker 1: the church tried to politicize him and get him to
Speaker 1: speak out against gay men and imply that it was
Speaker 1: disease it was created by by gay men. And in
Speaker 1: the book he was befriended by a guy called Elton John.
Speaker 1: And I saw this book report as a departure from
Speaker 1: my family in a weird way their politics. Something was
Speaker 1: starting to become clear about my sexuality because I was
Speaker 1: eleven and this guy, Elton John, seemed really special to me.
Speaker 1: So I went to the King County Library and I
Speaker 1: checked out two CDs, Tumbleweed Connection and the one here
Speaker 1: and There that had Skyline Pigeon on it because he's
Speaker 1: sang it at this kid's funeral. And I loved that
Speaker 1: boy and wrote this big book report on him. And
Speaker 1: I checked out a biography by Philip Norman, and I
Speaker 1: got into David Bowie via Elton John, and also Queen
Speaker 1: became fascinated with Freddie Mercury George Michael, You Two and
Speaker 1: the Beatles all in this on this biography that I
Speaker 1: had read, and I started dressing different, talking different, arguing
Speaker 1: politics with my dad, and started liking a different kind
Speaker 1: of music and started standing out and becoming an artist.
Speaker 1: And it was hard. It was hard on my parents spiritually,
Speaker 1: politically was hard because we were poor and I was
Speaker 1: already weird enough at school. But that's when I started
Speaker 1: to take a turn away from just playing the spoons
Speaker 1: and singing at family jams to really wanting to be
Speaker 1: an artist. And then when did you start singing? What
Speaker 1: was your first professional experience singing? We had these auditions
Speaker 1: at this place called the Northwest Grand Ole Opry, where
Speaker 1: my mom's dad was the kind of patriarch family yodeling,
Speaker 1: very glamorous, amazing man. He'd died really young, of Luke
Speaker 1: Garret's as he's actually he was only fifty, and with
Speaker 1: the money he left, which was not much, it was
Speaker 1: just enough for my mom to buy a little PA system,
Speaker 1: and she decided to start doing music for real because
Speaker 1: he was gone and she wanted to do something to
Speaker 1: heel herself, and she started doing auditions and she took
Speaker 1: me with her to an audition at a place called
Speaker 1: the Northwest grand Ole Opry and I got to audition too,
Speaker 1: and we both made it. And the first song I
Speaker 1: sang was Tennessee Flat Top Box by Johnny Cash. Second
Speaker 1: one was San Antonio Stroll by Tenny Tucker. And I
Speaker 1: started singing on Friday and Saturday nights, rehearsals on Wednesdays.
Speaker 1: How old are you it this time? Eight? Did that
Speaker 1: till I was like thirteen or fourteen. It's also sanging
Speaker 1: bars and contests and anywhere I could sing, And I
Speaker 1: sang full time. And when I was fourteen, I started
Speaker 1: singing background vocals for an Elvis impersonator, learning how to
Speaker 1: play guitar around fifteen or sixteen, and writing songs. I
Speaker 1: started my own bands, and by the time I was twenty,
Speaker 1: I came to LA played for you. You were ready. Well,
Speaker 1: I don't think I was ready, actually, but I was.
Speaker 1: I was one of the steps for sure. Well. The
Speaker 1: fact that you did all of the fact that you
Speaker 1: played in front of audiences for so long is something
Speaker 1: so few new musicians have. Yes, you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: very few and far between the ec people who've done
Speaker 1: years of playing in front of people before we get
Speaker 1: to see them, and there's a there's an experience that comes.
Speaker 1: There's a level of expertise from that experience that you
Speaker 1: can't create any other way. By doing it, you can't
Speaker 1: get you can't get years of practice without years no
Speaker 1: And the main thing you can't get is you can't
Speaker 1: get over your tet television understanding that just because you're performing,
Speaker 1: an audience should listen to you. That's the worst part.
Speaker 1: That's the most soul destroying thing for a new artist
Speaker 1: that doesn't have busking or bar experience is that they
Speaker 1: don't understand that you actually have to earn the other
Speaker 1: person's attention and it can be really hard work. And
Speaker 1: sometimes they can be assholes, and sometimes they can be drunk,
Speaker 1: or they can be walking past you to work, and
Speaker 1: you have to figure out what it is that's going
Speaker 1: to make them stop, put down the beer for even
Speaker 1: twenty seconds, or stop where they're going and take out
Speaker 1: a buck and throw it in your guitar case. Like
Speaker 1: to any kid, anybody that's just starting out music, I
Speaker 1: so strongly recommend busking. If you can't get a gig
Speaker 1: in a bar, bust, try to figure out what it
Speaker 1: is that you do with your voice, or with your
Speaker 1: words or your body that makes someone stop. I would
Speaker 1: say that it goes for everything, even beyond music. It's
Speaker 1: like the idea that we're just naturally going to be accepted. Yeah,
Speaker 1: as great doesn't really happen, like you need to go
Speaker 1: out and prove it. Yeah, that's real life. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: what were some of the methods you would use to
Speaker 1: get people to stop and pay attention. I figured out
Speaker 1: early on that for me it was volume and dynamics.
Speaker 1: Sometimes if I couldn't get a bar to quiet down,
Speaker 1: I would stop playing my guitar and start screaming, or
Speaker 1: I would mute my guitar and start whispering. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1: just depended on how they were reacting, you know, and
Speaker 1: I would just try and give them what I thought
Speaker 1: they needed. And it became it came with trying to
Speaker 1: learn to be a musical EmPATH, reading a room, trying
Speaker 1: to give the people what they want. And you know,
Speaker 1: as I've gotten older, I've started to understand that it's
Speaker 1: not a glitzye or a silly thing to be an entertainer.
Speaker 1: You know, It's there's artistry in it, absolutely, Yeah, It's
Speaker 1: just more of a performance it's a different kind of art,
Speaker 1: but it's it's all art. It's all it's all making
Speaker 1: something beautiful and sharing it with people. Yeah, we'll be
Speaker 1: right back with Rick and Brandy Carlyle. After the break.
Speaker 1: We're back with Rick and Brandy Carlyle. Here's Brandy singing
Speaker 1: a song from her latest album, By the Way I
Speaker 1: Forgive You. This song is called The Mother. It's about
Speaker 1: It's about my daughter, Evangeline, and it's about my path
Speaker 1: into um motherhood and how twisted and rocky bumpy it was,
Speaker 1: and how even long after she was here, I wasn't
Speaker 1: sure I made the right decision. Wow. And it's hard
Speaker 1: for people to admit that they feel that way. But
Speaker 1: I wanted to write a song about it because once
Speaker 1: I did admit it, it's like it opened me up
Speaker 1: to falling in love with her in my own time.
Speaker 1: And it's a complicated thing. Gay domesticities is a complicated
Speaker 1: and sort of new thing, and there's not a lot
Speaker 1: of pioneering books about it. So I wrote this song beautiful.
Speaker 1: Tell me about your songwriting process. Is there any would
Speaker 1: you say it follows any typical methods or different every time?
Speaker 1: It's really changed as I've gotten older, I write a
Speaker 1: lot less songs now. Sometimes it's scary. Sometimes I will
Speaker 1: write like one every two years, really, and it feels
Speaker 1: like it's going away, but it never does. And if
Speaker 1: I always just trust that it won't go away, then
Speaker 1: it comes back. Do you think it's because you're on
Speaker 1: the road so much? No, I think it's because I've
Speaker 1: I've transformed as an artist to be something other than
Speaker 1: a songwriter, than just a songwriter. It's kind of like
Speaker 1: an element of who I think I am now. But
Speaker 1: I'm just as happy to sing songs that the twins
Speaker 1: have written, particularly because we live together. You know, we
Speaker 1: all live together now on the same property, and we're
Speaker 1: married to each other's siblings, and we have babies that
Speaker 1: all go to school and meet up every morning at
Speaker 1: the same bus stop, and so much has changed in
Speaker 1: the last twenty years. But when they write a song
Speaker 1: and they and they bring it through to me, and
Speaker 1: it's about our friend taking his own life, or it's
Speaker 1: about you know, one of our dad's in rehab, I
Speaker 1: know what it's about, and it could have been written
Speaker 1: by me, And so I still get choked up and
Speaker 1: I get a lump in my throat when I'm singing,
Speaker 1: and it feels like it came from my soul because
Speaker 1: we're waking up and looking out the same windows every day.
Speaker 1: So I don't need to be writing a song really
Speaker 1: to feel moved by interpreting one. But when I do,
Speaker 1: I'm much much more spiritually open about having an influence
Speaker 1: than I was when I was younger, and it's always
Speaker 1: comes from a more honest place, which is interesting because
Speaker 1: I think because I've never had any commercial success per se,
Speaker 1: I'm not chasing it, yes, which is super healthy. Thank
Speaker 1: god it really worked out, because had something really exploded
Speaker 1: early on and then there was always this sort of
Speaker 1: trying to get back to that place, it would have
Speaker 1: undermined the whole thing. Yeah, you're right, I really feel
Speaker 1: like that. I've observed that now, and I don't want it.
Speaker 1: I've never wanted it. It's not really what I'm not
Speaker 1: cut out for that, you know. And You've had a
Speaker 1: great life doing what you do on your own terms. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you sing the songs you want to sing, You sing
Speaker 1: them the way you want to sing, exactly. And I
Speaker 1: live with my brothers, and I've got my wife, and
Speaker 1: I've got my babies and I've got all the things
Speaker 1: I want, you know, I've got a four wheeler in
Speaker 1: a fishing boat, and I'm fine. I can remember. I
Speaker 1: won't say the name of the artist, but a very
Speaker 1: well known pop star who's a big fani Ors. I
Speaker 1: don't know if you know. I don't know if you
Speaker 1: know her, but she told me she was so blown
Speaker 1: away by you, and she made music that was very
Speaker 1: manufactured pop, and it was like, I was surprised that
Speaker 1: she liked you because the music she made was so different.
Speaker 1: And she said, well, if I could do what I want,
Speaker 1: I would do what Brandy does. But I can't. I'm
Speaker 1: in this machine and I have to sing this garbage.
Speaker 1: And literally it was like, Wow, that's what I want
Speaker 1: to do. She's doing it. I don't get to do that.
Speaker 1: I just get to make these pop records. Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: a time I felt that way about her, whoever she is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, if I could do what I want, I
Speaker 1: would be famous, and I would I would be rich,
Speaker 1: and I wouldn't be so tired, and I wouldn't be
Speaker 1: taking steroids and I wouldn't be living in this van,
Speaker 1: you know. But now I'm just I'm just so glad
Speaker 1: that that that that never happened to me. And it's
Speaker 1: no insult because I love a rock star like anybody
Speaker 1: else loves a rock star. God. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: fame is a beautiful thing. It's just not my thing.
Speaker 1: It's also the path that suits us often finds us.
Speaker 1: You know, we may be looking for something else, we
Speaker 1: find the path we belong on and U and it
Speaker 1: feels good, like, you know, like to some degree, it's
Speaker 1: like we're we're characters in this movie and we have
Speaker 1: ideas of what we want the next scene to be,
Speaker 1: but we don't get to control that. And do you
Speaker 1: think sometimes when we think we're manifesting it, that maybe
Speaker 1: we're just innately knowing it's ahead of us. It could be,
Speaker 1: it would be I don't know, it could be it
Speaker 1: could be one way. And whether whether it's us manifesting
Speaker 1: it or whether it's a premonition of what's to come
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. Yeah, you know, either way, it's cool to
Speaker 1: have that feeling of like, oh, I feel like this
Speaker 1: is going to happen. A minute it happens. It makes
Speaker 1: the experience of living more fun, like like you get
Speaker 1: to feel like, why, wow, I'm really in this I'm
Speaker 1: in this life, yeah, and I'm open to it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So the twists and turns. You know, it's hard sometimes
Speaker 1: when the thing that comes up is something that is
Speaker 1: really painful. That's the first thing I thought when I
Speaker 1: said that too. Yeah, Yeah, it's hard when the thing
Speaker 1: that comes up is really painful to to know. Wow,
Speaker 1: like watching it in the movie and Wow, our hero
Speaker 1: just got into trouble and that's you know, I wonder
Speaker 1: how he's going to get out of this, do you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Like like to be able to
Speaker 1: remove ourselves from the emotion in it and be trusting
Speaker 1: that the universe is on our side. Yeah. I mean
Speaker 1: the big thing for me is I just made the
Speaker 1: decision in my um very like right around the time
Speaker 1: I turned thirty, in my early thirties, to stop being
Speaker 1: in fights, you know, not to stop standing up for myself, yeah,
Speaker 1: but to stop being in fights is actually much more proactive.
Speaker 1: I don't want to say aggressive, because it's not aggressive,
Speaker 1: but it's it's much stronger to stop being in fights.
Speaker 1: Were what were some of the things that you might
Speaker 1: have fought over in the past, Oh, God, you name it. Man.
Speaker 1: I've been fighting since I was a little kid, just
Speaker 1: fighting in the schoolyard, fighting people, fighting in relationships, fighting God,
Speaker 1: fighting the church, fighting over politics, fighting over music, fighting producers.
Speaker 1: You know, every record I made ended in me falling
Speaker 1: out with the producer all every time. And what do
Speaker 1: you think the what do you think was underneath it?
Speaker 1: Poor kid work, ethic, a damage and chaos and also passion,
Speaker 1: you know, and like also a little bit of it
Speaker 1: is being gay and kind of growing up in the
Speaker 1: church and like having to fight for your actual eternity,
Speaker 1: you know, and just the dignity of showing up every
Speaker 1: day and being who you are when no one wants
Speaker 1: you to. And you take that into places that are inappropriate,
Speaker 1: but it was appropriate in those scenarios, you know. And
Speaker 1: it just took falling in love and Saturn return to
Speaker 1: kind of making rise above myself little bit and see
Speaker 1: it beautiful. So tell me how was the last album
Speaker 1: that he made different than the ones that came before it?
Speaker 1: I mean I was different. We made this album with
Speaker 1: Dave Cobb and Shooter Jennings, and Shooter Jennings is like
Speaker 1: a spirit animal person that is like in my life
Speaker 1: to just remind me not to judge people remind me
Speaker 1: not to be uptight. And Dave Cobb was a person
Speaker 1: that scared me, and I felt like his his talent
Speaker 1: was intimidating, and his audacity was intimidating, and his guileless
Speaker 1: authority was intimidating. And I had only made two made
Speaker 1: two self produced records, and I wasn't really planning on
Speaker 1: going into the studio with a with an influential producer.
Speaker 1: And I was trying to put together an album for
Speaker 1: war Child to benefit refugee kids, kids mostly from Syria
Speaker 1: and camps and I back in Jordan and I called
Speaker 1: I got Dolly Parton to do my song the story incredible.
Speaker 1: It was so cool, man. But she wanted us to
Speaker 1: record a track, and I had no idea really what
Speaker 1: to do, and I had to kind of admit my limitations.
Speaker 1: And I thought about Dave Cobb because I was getting
Speaker 1: ready to drive through Nashville, and I just knew that
Speaker 1: he had a handle on it. And so I called
Speaker 1: him up and I was like, do you have time
Speaker 1: to do this? And he's like, no, I have absolutely
Speaker 1: zero time, but I will do this in the middle
Speaker 1: of the night for you. Because my wife is a
Speaker 1: refugee and so we pulled our bus into our c
Speaker 1: studios in the middle of the night and he played
Speaker 1: Wichita Lineman in the Ghetto, and then we recorded the
Speaker 1: story for Dolly Parton. I left there totally mind blown,
Speaker 1: thinking I never wanted to work with Dave Cobb, but
Speaker 1: that I was really impressed and shoot, her and I
Speaker 1: were going to work together. And we got to talking
Speaker 1: about it and he said, I think you should give
Speaker 1: Dave a second thought. He's my brother and he loves you,
Speaker 1: and we should really think about this. So I was like,
Speaker 1: ready for a radical change in my life. The twins
Speaker 1: are ready for radical change in their lives. And we
Speaker 1: went in and everything was set up. We didn't get
Speaker 1: sounds or anything. We got lunch, sat in the corner.
Speaker 1: We listened to some records and he said, so, what
Speaker 1: do you want to play and we're like, well, we'll
Speaker 1: play you this song, you know, and we just played
Speaker 1: it for him, but he recorded and he's like, well
Speaker 1: we got our first track, and I was like, wow,
Speaker 1: this is this is different? You know, how does it
Speaker 1: even sound? I got sounds where you got here, don't
Speaker 1: worry about it. And the whole record was that way
Speaker 1: done in two weeks, bursting into tears the whole time,
Speaker 1: emotional breakdowns, dig and deep mining of the soul new
Speaker 1: way that we had never done it before, and I knew,
Speaker 1: I knew it was different. What's interesting about that is
Speaker 1: it sounds like by him taking care of the production
Speaker 1: and everything else, you got to really dive into being
Speaker 1: the artist and not having to wear multiple hats and
Speaker 1: completely be in the music. Now you're right, Yeah, now
Speaker 1: I want to do it again. Yeah, it makes sense,
Speaker 1: I understand. Yeah, there's there's also a psyche what we
Speaker 1: talked about earlier, the idea that sometimes it's helpful to
Speaker 1: have someone outside who really likes you. You know, it's
Speaker 1: really helpful. Yeah that was big. That was really big.
Speaker 1: And he just made me feel like he really liked
Speaker 1: my voice. Yeah, you know, I have been in the
Speaker 1: studio with a lot of people that didn't like my voice. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And of course there's affectation, and of course there's lots
Speaker 1: of reasons for that, but I just think that, like
Speaker 1: that's part of making music that isn't manufactured. Is that
Speaker 1: part of like growing as an artist, I think is
Speaker 1: developing and shedding affectation. Yes, you can't strip a young
Speaker 1: person at the affectation. They have to decide to shed
Speaker 1: the affectation and got it could take a long time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, it took me a long time. It happens naturally,
Speaker 1: and it only it happens when it wants to happen.
Speaker 1: It's not anything can be forced. If you pull off
Speaker 1: the affectation. Before it comes off, we don't really know
Speaker 1: what's underneath. That's so true. I've never heard it said
Speaker 1: that way before, but that's exactly why you can't do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it comes from the person not knowing who they are yet.
Speaker 1: So this is the the crutch or the training wheels
Speaker 1: till I get to be who I am. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: I'm going to go through this vehicle. Yeah. The last
Speaker 1: time I saw you play was with the Avid Brothers
Speaker 1: at Madison Square Garden, right, which was incredible. It was
Speaker 1: an incredible night both seeing both seeing you and them.
Speaker 1: There was a place where I used to see, you know,
Speaker 1: big concerts when I was a little kid. Was a
Speaker 1: real thrill for me. Man. I love those boys. Aren't
Speaker 1: they great? I Mean it's more than that. I just
Speaker 1: feel like we just the world just needs them in
Speaker 1: a big, big way. And I need them. And yeah,
Speaker 1: did you know Scott painted me for the cover of
Speaker 1: my album by the way, if you give you I
Speaker 1: did not, but that makes now that you say it, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it makes sense. Yeah he did. And this is how
Speaker 1: gay I am. I have such a crush on Scott.
Speaker 1: I think Scott is one of the most beautiful people
Speaker 1: I've ever met. And I went to his house by
Speaker 1: myself in North Carolina to set for him and be painted.
Speaker 1: And I had to rent my very first card I
Speaker 1: never rented a car all of myself. And I went
Speaker 1: out there and I spent the entire day with Scott
Speaker 1: inside of a box that he created out of a
Speaker 1: sheet and some cardboard, and the little light coming in
Speaker 1: at the top, and he was like this close to
Speaker 1: my face all day, and I was thinking, I feel
Speaker 1: nothing around this gorgeous specimen, a specimen of a man.
Speaker 1: Like this is how gay I actually, because he's so handsome,
Speaker 1: and I was so nervous to be like he's of
Speaker 1: course married father, I'm married and a mother, but I
Speaker 1: just love him. But he's one of those people where
Speaker 1: he is as beautiful of a person as he is
Speaker 1: to look at, like he's just more more beautiful because
Speaker 1: of exactly that. Yeah, it's we see him beautiful because
Speaker 1: it's his soul shining through. You're exactly right. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: Seth is the same way. Amazing, amazing fellas and their
Speaker 1: parents and their wives and their kids. It's all the
Speaker 1: same thing. There's a big love light shining out in
Speaker 1: North Carolina because of them. Yeah. I always feel like
Speaker 1: any chance I get to be around them improves my life. Yeah,
Speaker 1: absolutely absolutely. A friend of mine made the documentary May
Speaker 1: at Last, Jed Appatow. Yeah, a lot of it here,
Speaker 1: a lot of it here. And he's a he works
Speaker 1: in comedy, and most of the people that we know
Speaker 1: in the comedy world tend to be dysfunctional. It's the
Speaker 1: nature of the reason you find yourself in comedy comes
Speaker 1: out of dysfunction. And I was laughing with Judge because
Speaker 1: he was saying what a great experience it was making
Speaker 1: this and how great it was to be around those people,
Speaker 1: And I said, you know, most of the people we
Speaker 1: know are insane. This is what like, we don't know
Speaker 1: any like nice people. They are the only nice people
Speaker 1: I know. That's what it feels here. It's like there,
Speaker 1: you can't believe that anyone is like this, Yeah, but
Speaker 1: they are. It's real. Yeah. And you keep thinking you're
Speaker 1: waiting for the road to get pulled. You're like, when
Speaker 1: I turn my back, you're gonna do something weird. But
Speaker 1: they don't know. No, it's an incredible family. I don't
Speaker 1: know how it happened. I remember I asked their dad
Speaker 1: when I met their dad the first time, I said,
Speaker 1: how did what did you do for these people to
Speaker 1: exist like this in the world? And he said, I
Speaker 1: back him. I back him no matter what. I back him.
Speaker 1: If somebody came and told me that one of the
Speaker 1: boys killed somebody, I would say, I guess somebody needed
Speaker 1: some killing. That is profound. Yeah, that's some parenting advice
Speaker 1: right there. Unconditional love. Wow. We'll be right back with
Speaker 1: the rest of Rick's interview with Brandy Carlisle. We're back
Speaker 1: with Brandy Carlisle. The night before this interview, Brandy performed
Speaker 1: Joni Mitchell's classic album Blue and Its Entirety at LA's
Speaker 1: Disney Concert Hall. She talked to Rick about how she
Speaker 1: first discovered Joni Mitchell's music. I was really late to
Speaker 1: the game on Joni Mitchell, and there's a whole thing
Speaker 1: about it that I won't go into. But when I did,
Speaker 1: like Deep Dive, I made up for lost time in
Speaker 1: a really big way. And I became upset with the
Speaker 1: album Blue. I learned the entire thing. It was like
Speaker 1: my life. And then I got into Court and Spark.
Speaker 1: So eight and a half, almost nine years ago, skipped
Speaker 1: over for the Roses, went straight to Courton Spark, and
Speaker 1: then went back to Song for Siegel, all the way
Speaker 1: into Ladies of the Canyon, Blue for the Roses, Courton Spark,
Speaker 1: Kissing of Summer Line, says Gyri, which is now my
Speaker 1: favorite Joni Mitchell album, all the way up to Shine.
Speaker 1: So her seventy fifth birthday party, which is almost a
Speaker 1: year ago to the day, they asked a lot of
Speaker 1: really cool people to come and tribute her by singing songs.
Speaker 1: And I wanted to do it so bad. I begged
Speaker 1: and begged and begged, and they wouldn't let me do it,
Speaker 1: and they told me no, and it was full, and
Speaker 1: I just kept writing letters, and I kept digging to
Speaker 1: find out other people that were connected to it, and
Speaker 1: then writing them letters. And you know, Mom and Dad
Speaker 1: said no. So I was asking all the aunties and
Speaker 1: uncles and basically because Chris Christofferson got asked to do
Speaker 1: a case of you. And I've been helping Chris a
Speaker 1: little bit on stage with his memory and his ability
Speaker 1: to kind of deliver a live performance that's not his own,
Speaker 1: like his own lyrics. He can do it with a teleprompter,
Speaker 1: but outside of that he struggles with simple things like
Speaker 1: microphone placement, plugging in his guitar and stuff. So I've
Speaker 1: been kind of, like his wife says, like she can
Speaker 1: help him to the edge of the stage, but after that,
Speaker 1: you know. So I stepped in a bunch of times
Speaker 1: to be with Chris because he's still so special. And
Speaker 1: so he got asked to do a case of you,
Speaker 1: so I was able to help him do that, and
Speaker 1: then they gave me down to you from Court and Spark.
Speaker 1: So I did it and I found it really transformative.
Speaker 1: And I brought this picture to have signed by Jonie
Speaker 1: and it was my wife, Katherine's, like her one job
Speaker 1: to get it signed, and she didn't do it. She
Speaker 1: was a PA for Paul McCartney for like ten years,
Speaker 1: so she's good at reading a room. You know. She
Speaker 1: just knew it wasn't appropriate. But I was so moved
Speaker 1: by the night. I said, I'm going to cover the
Speaker 1: entire Joni Mitchell Blue album at Disney Hall in La
Speaker 1: a year from now. And she said all right, and
Speaker 1: she called Jonie's assistant and she said, we'll kind of
Speaker 1: get this picture signed for Brandy for Christmas is a surprise.
Speaker 1: And they said, yeah, I'm bringing by the house and
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, come on up and we'll get
Speaker 1: we'll get it signed. And so Katherine went by the house,
Speaker 1: but Joonie invited her in and wound up sitting at
Speaker 1: the table with her and having a long talk about
Speaker 1: nature in Canada and they had they kind of had
Speaker 1: a friendship thing, and Jonie said, well, you know, anytime
Speaker 1: you're you and your wife want to get together and
Speaker 1: grab it bye to eat, you know we can't. And
Speaker 1: after the Grammys, Jonie reached out and she took me
Speaker 1: outs dinner and Katherine and we had this amazing dinner.
Speaker 1: She ordered all of our food for us. It was
Speaker 1: like really special and she said at the end of that,
Speaker 1: she didn't say much, but at the end of it
Speaker 1: she said, you know, I don't do music anymore. And
Speaker 1: before you start feeling sorry for me and getting weird
Speaker 1: about it. I'm a painter. I'm not sad, but it
Speaker 1: does bother me that I have these instruments setting around
Speaker 1: that are so beautiful and no one plays them. So
Speaker 1: if you want to get a few young people together,
Speaker 1: some people together, you want to come over my house
Speaker 1: and play some music one night, let's do a jam.
Speaker 1: And I was like, all right, so we did. The
Speaker 1: very first night, me and Hosier went over to Joonie's
Speaker 1: house and we had dinner. It was like Mexican food,
Speaker 1: sat outside and Joanie, like annadvertently tells the stories of
Speaker 1: her songs without telling us. She's telling the stories of
Speaker 1: her songs. So if you know Jony, you know the story.
Speaker 1: And it's really amazing. You know, She's talk about some
Speaker 1: turbulent flight she was sawing, and I was like, man,
Speaker 1: turn this bird around, and you know, like what she's
Speaker 1: talking about. If you know Blue, you know. So that
Speaker 1: was fascinating part of the night. And then we kind
Speaker 1: of migrated into the living room around some instruments and
Speaker 1: I played a song. I played a song of mine
Speaker 1: called Cannonball, and then Andrew Hosier played a song and
Speaker 1: we're in the middle of these songs and like apropos
Speaker 1: of nothing. Shaka Khan walks in, and Joanie always has
Speaker 1: a plan, that's the thing about her. She wanted to,
Speaker 1: you know, surprise us and throw us for a loop
Speaker 1: and show us how it was done. So she invited
Speaker 1: some people we didn't know about. So Shaka Khan walks in.
Speaker 1: She starts throwing a fourth part at harmony on top
Speaker 1: of the Crosbie stills a Nash song I was singing,
Speaker 1: and middle of that one, Herbie Hancock walks in and
Speaker 1: he sits down at a piano and we are just hyperventilating,
Speaker 1: Me and Andrew beside ourselves, and the twins and my
Speaker 1: wife and Joni's got this big, knowing, mischievous grin on
Speaker 1: her face. And Herbie starts hovering on a chord, you know,
Speaker 1: and he's like, what are the kids? And do you
Speaker 1: know how are we gonna how are we gonna do
Speaker 1: this jam? We don't know what he's doing. It's just
Speaker 1: really diminished and there's all these things happening, and he's playing,
Speaker 1: and everybody gets real quiet because we didn't know what
Speaker 1: was going to happen. And out of the middle of
Speaker 1: the room we hear summertime and the living is easy.
Speaker 1: And it's Joni who's just opened her mouth and saying
Speaker 1: for the first time since her aneurysm seven years ago.
Speaker 1: Herbie burst into tears. Everybody burst into tears, and Joni
Speaker 1: sat there grinning that mischievous grin, and Shaka goes, the
Speaker 1: fish are jumping in the cotton is high, and Joy goes,
Speaker 1: the fish are jumping and the cotton is high. And
Speaker 1: the next thing you know, Jonny's singing again. And she
Speaker 1: sang for an hour and didn't stop. And so we've
Speaker 1: been going over there and jamming and Joni's been singing,
Speaker 1: and that's that's how it goes. So beautiful. You growing up,
Speaker 1: you didn't listen to Joni. What was the what happened
Speaker 1: that got you into it? Well, Tibo and Burnette played
Speaker 1: Blue for me when I was making the story, so
Speaker 1: that would have been two thousand and five, two thousand
Speaker 1: and six, and her voice was so high and she
Speaker 1: got to the line that said, um, I want to
Speaker 1: renew you, I want to shampoo you, and I hated it.
Speaker 1: It was so heterosexual and submissive. It just bothered me.
Speaker 1: It was like, oh, this is this is not tough,
Speaker 1: this is some other thing. This is feminine, and and
Speaker 1: I wrote it off. And then all these years later,
Speaker 1: I met my wife and we we were holed up
Speaker 1: in a cabin together in northern Michigan and listening to music,
Speaker 1: and she brought Damien Rice and she brought Blue and
Speaker 1: she put on Blue and I laughed and I said,
Speaker 1: you always, I don't even really like Jony Mix. She
Speaker 1: actually and she got like deadly silent, and she was like,
Speaker 1: I don't actually know you like I thought I did.
Speaker 1: If you can't get your head around Joni Mitchell. And
Speaker 1: I was like, well, it's just that I like tough
Speaker 1: singers and she's just not tough, and I hate the lyric.
Speaker 1: I want to renew you, I want to shampoo you.
Speaker 1: And she goes, really, she's not tough, like because she
Speaker 1: sounds like a feminine woman. And I was like, well,
Speaker 1: it's a lot more than that, and she goes, do
Speaker 1: you know what little Green is about? And I said no,
Speaker 1: and she told me and she put on little Green
Speaker 1: and I broke down. I just completely broke down. And
Speaker 1: it changed not just the way I looked at Joni Mitchell,
Speaker 1: but the way I looked at women and femininity and
Speaker 1: toughness and how intertwined they really are. And so it
Speaker 1: put me in touch with my femininity in a new way.
Speaker 1: And so when I dove into Jonie, I did a
Speaker 1: deep dive because I realized that I wasn't just fundamentally
Speaker 1: wrong about Joni Mitchell. I was fundamentally wrong about what
Speaker 1: I thought it meant to be. Tough, beautiful story. It's
Speaker 1: amazing how small revelations can change our perception in great
Speaker 1: ways that you wouldn't expect. You wouldn't expect you not
Speaker 1: liking a lyric in a song to frame the way
Speaker 1: you see the world, and just through that one breaking
Speaker 1: through that one change opened up you open up yourself
Speaker 1: to a whole different way of seeing the world in
Speaker 1: myself and it really did amazing. Yeah, I'll never be
Speaker 1: the same writer after that either. Beautiful cool. Thanks for
Speaker 1: coming all right, Coop. Thank you to Brandy Carlyle for
Speaker 1: stopping buy Shanghala I'm playing for Rick. Her latest album
Speaker 1: with the Grammy Award winning By the Way I Forgive
Speaker 1: You is out now. You should to check it out
Speaker 1: along with the rest of our favorite Brandy songs at
Speaker 1: broken record podcast dot com. Broken Record is produced with
Speaker 1: help from Jason Gambrell, Mi La Belle, Leah Rose, Matt Laboza,
Speaker 1: and Martin Gonzalez for Pushkin Industries. Our theme musics by
Speaker 1: Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond. Thanks for listening.