WEBVTT - Hard Work Isn’t The Reason For Your Success 0:00:00.760 --> 0:00:03.200 We all want to believe that hard work is the 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:06.280 reason for our success. It's hard to admit that you've 0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:08.039 got a leg up when you feel like you put 0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:09.840 in a lot of effort to get where you are. 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:14.440 But the reality is the workplace isn't a level playing field. 0:00:15.160 --> 0:00:29.640 This is game plan. Hi. I'm Rebecca Greenfield and I'm 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:34.120 Francesco Levy, and this week we're talking about meritocracy and 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:37.600 why that is such an appealing narrative and also why 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:42.000 it's not real. Oh so, before we get into it, 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:44.440 I think we need to define meritocracy, which is this 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:48.960 idea that the people who work the hardest and have 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:53.800 the most talents will succeed based on their merits. Merit accracy, 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:58.840 thanks for the etymology. Yeah, it is super appealing if 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:02.240 your company. You can kind of look around at older 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:05.320 systems where people got ahead because of who they know 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:09.800 or because they went to the right fancy private schools, 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:12.959 and you can say, well, that's clearly unfair. Let me 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:15.919 put something into place where everyone is free to submit 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:18.680 an idea to upper management and then we'll just look 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:21.200 at all those ideas and the best idea will rise 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:22.520 to the top, and it has nothing to do with 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:25.000 who you are. So it's a really nice way of 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:27.920 feeling like you've cleared up all those pesky sort of 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:30.960 issues of bias and advantage. Yeah. I think we've worked 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:33.800 in places where you look around and you say that 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:38.160 person is where they are because of how they were born. Yeah. There, 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:42.160 it's definitely kind of demoralizing whenever you work around other 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:44.800 people who you know have only kept their jobs or 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:47.200 only risen to their level because you know they had 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:50.520 the right allies in the company, or they are just 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:53.360 somehow too important to fire, or they you know, long 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:55.600 ago got some advantage and they just sort of rode 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:58.920 their status to the top, and you're here just trying 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:01.400 to make it on the value you of your hard 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:03.760 work and your ideas, or so you think. And then 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:07.000 if you work in a meritocracy, you can tell yourself 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:10.400 that the reason for your successes was your hard work 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:13.680 and that nothing else got you to where you are. 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:17.280 So it feels pretty good on a personal level too. Yeah, 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:20.040 So that's why the idea looks so good to both 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:23.919 management and workers. But I think that that ideas falls 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:26.880 and we're going to get into that more. But I 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:29.440 think before we get into it, it's interesting to look 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:33.760 back at the history of meritocracy and it started in 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:37.240 Silicon Valley, which should not be a surprise because, like i'mlie, 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:40.200 is still very obsessed with this idea. But I found 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:42.520 that the founder of Intel, when he was going to 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:45.200 start a company, as you mentioned, he was trying to 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:47.440 get away from all these old systems that he thought 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:50.680 were unfair and he didn't want to tap down hierarchy, 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:53.560 so he decided to create his company as a meritocracy 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:57.000 that awarded people's ideas and not their status in the 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:00.240 company or how many years they've been working at the company. Yeah, 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:02.640 and you're right, Silicon Valley is still totally obsessed with 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:05.760 this idea. I think maybe because a lot of the 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:09.280 substance of the work feels like tangible things you can measure, 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:12.680 like you know, it's computer code. It's it's not emotional, 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:15.560 it's not about relationships. We just we take the best 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:19.400 code and we make the best programs. And I mean 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:22.480 I'm simplifying tech here. Obviously we basically go there. YEA 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:26.680 really um, but you can you can say you have 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:30.560 some basis on which to say, Look, anybody can start 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:33.639 their own app. These days, people start companies with very 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:36.440 little money all the time. So, you know, we've really 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:40.760 created a world here in Silicon Valley where um the 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:45.160 best ideas succeed, not the you know, most advantaged people. 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:50.000 And the heroes of Silicon Valley are people who people 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:51.960 point to and say, look that they didn't go to college, 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:54.160 or they didn't finish college, or they came from nothing. 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:56.800 They're not part of these dynasties, and so their proof 0:03:57.040 --> 0:04:00.880 that the meritocracy is working. But even when you look 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:04.280 at that idea, that turns out to be false. So 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:06.160 one of these years, as this guy Max love Chen, 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:08.720 who among other things, he founded yea piece, very very 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:11.480 wealthy um and people point to him is saying like, look, 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:13.520 he was an immigrant. His parents came here, they had 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:16.640 I think the Laura's three dollars in their pocket, and 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:20.479 now their son is the successful entrepreneur. But in an 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:23.280 interview he himself said that that is not true and 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:26.719 that he did have certain advantages, specifically that his parents 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:29.159 really told him that they need that he needed to 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:32.560 learn a skill, and they came with educational backgrounds and 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:35.560 they told him education was important. And he said without that, 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:38.160 he wouldn't have thought that he could have succeeded. So 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:40.159 right there, there's something that on its face looks like 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:43.039 somebody rising to the top just because of the value 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:45.200 of his work, And actually there's a lot more to it, 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:47.920 and it's pretty easy to pick apart that I do 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:50.000 more broadly in Silicon Valley, because you can just look 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:53.520 around and see, um, it's not a very diverse place. 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:55.800 I think one of the most obvious indicators that this 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:59.080 meritocracy idea isn't working in Silicon Valley is that pretty 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:01.080 much the same p will rise to the top through 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:05.040 a meritocracy as would through a more traditional system, a 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:08.960 more traditional hierarchy. And there are plenty of people who 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:11.840 think that's fine. You know, they say, look, if we 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:14.279 take away the barriers, or if we seem to be 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:18.000 taking away the barriers by just giving everybody the same access, 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:21.679 then it shouldn't matter, you know, the race or gender 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:24.599 or economic background of the people who tend to make it. 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:27.560 But then there are other ways of looking at it 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:30.080 where you say, look, if the only people who can 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:32.400 make it are still, you know, people from pretty affluent 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:34.440 backgrounds who tend to be white and tend to be male, 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:38.400 then you might want to reevaluate how merit based your 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:41.799 system really is. Yeah, and slowly some companies and people 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:44.679 in Silicon Valley are starting to see that the system 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:47.599 isn't really a level of playing field. We talked to 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:50.640 someone who used to believe in meritocracy until he very 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:56.920 recently changed his mind, Ryan Carson, as the CEO of Treehouse, 0:05:56.960 --> 0:06:00.520 a coding school based in Portland, Oregon. He changed companies, 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:04.240 practices an entire outlook on education after realizing the system 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:10.279 wasn't as fair as he thought. You're now the CEO 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:13.120 of your own company. Um, you have eighty employees, You've 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:15.600 raised over a twelve million dollars. How did you get 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:17.919 to where you are now? Uh? Well, I grew up 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:22.280 in Colorado and I was exposed to computers early. I 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:26.800 was privileged in that sense, and I got interested incoding 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:29.960 when I was in ninth grade because I was lucky 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:32.400 to have a teacher say to me, Hey, Ryan, have 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:34.520 you ever heard of this thing when you tell the 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:38.520 computer what to do? And I thought, what that sounds 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:41.520 amazing and as she said, yeah, it's called programming, and 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:44.880 uh we had a class at my school. Um, so 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:48.040 I took it and fell in love. And then went 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:51.800 on to study computer science at Clorida State and graduated 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:55.920 in the year two thousand and Um. I decided that 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:58.679 I wanted some adventure in my life. So I moved 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:02.560 to England and didn't know a soul, which was exciting, 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:05.799 and I got a job as a developer. And then 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:09.800 that's when this realization kind of struck me that my 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:11.760 my degree didn't relate to what I was doing in 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:16.120 my job, and that bothered me. And so fast forward 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:20.960 seven years later, I actually started a company to to 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:24.800 solve that problem. So got involved in this idea of hey, 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:28.720 let's empower people by teaching them technology and all this 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:34.240 was founded upon this idea that tech as a meritocracy. Yeah, 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:36.760 at what point did you realize the tech world wasn't 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:40.600 a meritocracy. It was about a year ago. And so, um, 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:44.160 you know, I'm a white male, I'm straight, I'm tall, 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:48.200 I'm kind of you know, I'm educated. I grew up 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:51.240 in a middle to high income family. I just have 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:55.800 so much privilege. And I didn't really see that truly. 0:07:55.920 --> 0:07:58.000 You know, I thought, hey, you know, I'm lucky. Some 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:00.960 things have gone my way. Um, but on the whole, 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:03.320 you know, I've worked hard, I've learned how to code. 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:06.320 I've gotten to where I am because I kind of 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:10.440 pulled myself up by my bootstraps. And what I realized 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:15.760 is that, um, that is just not true. I have 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:19.600 a tremendous amount of chips, you know, stacked in my favor. 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:22.400 And the reason why I found this out is because 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:25.640 about a year ago I signed the Diversity Pledge here 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:28.800 in Portland and it basically is a group of companies 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:32.760 that's that are agreeing to lean in and try to 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:36.160 work on the problem of diversity and tech and inclusion. 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:40.480 And I entered that that group, you know, thinking, hey, 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:46.560 I basically, um, you know, I'm super moral. I I'm 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:49.760 definitely not sexist. I'm definitely not racist, and I just 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:53.760 want to help um and and I run a school 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:57.560 that teaches technology. It's super affordable, it's online, so you know, 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:00.480 all people have to do is is use a school 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:02.920 like Treehouse to learn how to code, and then they 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:06.480 can pull themselves up by their bootstraps to UM. And 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:09.480 then I actually talked to people of color and women 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:13.880 in depth to say, why are we having this problem? 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:18.200 I really don't get it. Help me understand. And one 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:21.280 of the most brutal conversations. I had was with a 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:25.720 guy in Boston who said, Ryan, let me put it 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:30.160 like this. He said, you know, you coming into our 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:34.200 community as a white guy with a computer science degree. 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:38.160 You know, we're all black, and you're telling us, Hey, 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:40.120 you can get a job in tech. You know you 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:43.240 can learn, you don't need a college degree. Is just 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:47.120 like the white preachers who came into the projects and 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:50.559 tried to plant churches and told the community that they 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:52.680 had something that they needed, you know, they had a 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:56.240 solution to their problems. And he said, Ryan, I don't 0:09:56.280 --> 0:09:58.360 trust you, like I don't know you. You You don't look 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:04.200 like me. Um, you know, why why should I believe you? Um? 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:06.480 And why do you think you have something that I need? 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:11.400 And that was really humbling, UM, And I think it 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:16.320 just opened my eyes to how insane the idea is that, Um, 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:19.679 everybody grew up like me and has the the access 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:23.440 and the desire and the role models. You describe this 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:28.400 period where you believed in meritocracy and then kind of 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:30.440 a turning point that you had where you realized, like, 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:33.560 were you having problems that led you to this kind 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:37.520 of you know, pivotal conclusion that changed everything yes. So 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:41.080 you know, at Treehouse we have eighty thousand students. Um 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:44.000 and and I and I might if I believed it 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:47.400 was a meritocracy, then we should see a ton of 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:50.520 people of color and women coming out of our program. 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:54.679 And we just weren't. Um And so it was kind 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:57.200 of a slap in the face that I don't understand, 0:10:57.240 --> 0:11:00.680 you know why tres is only twenty five bucks a month, 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:03.160 Like this seems so affordable. You don't have to go 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:07.280 to college, Like why and uh. And it was just 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:10.760 I felt, you know, absolutely baffled by it. And uh, 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:15.920 in hindsight, it's so obvious to me that it's almost embarrassing. Um. 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:18.960 But you know, I'm so glad I see it now. 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:23.920 This idea of meritocracy is so ingrained in the technology world. 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:27.160 Have you run up against people who are just disagree 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:31.320 with you? Um, yes, all the time. And and uh. 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:34.319 I was actually on a big podcast the other day 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:37.000 and I don't want to name names, but um, you know, 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:40.600 they basically said, I don't get it. You know, are 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:42.920 you sure this isn't a meritocracy. Why can't people just 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:47.559 work harder and hustle and and teach themselves? And um, 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:49.319 I just had to say what I've been saying over 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:54.280 and over again. They weren't raised like you. I think 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:58.000 it's mostly white men that believe this. I like myself 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:00.960 and I can speak like that because the white guy 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:04.160 who grew up, you know, in a basically rich family 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:09.640 with a college degree. So I think almost every uh 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:14.320 white male that you run into probably believes this, and 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:17.320 some of us are beginning to, you know, shake off 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:20.080 those shackles and realize it's just not true and we 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:22.680 should be a part of the solution. So once you 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:25.200 came to realize all this, how did you address it? 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:27.000 What were the solutions that you started to apply to 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:31.840 your company. So the first thing that the main message 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:34.400 I heard from folks that I was talking to who 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:38.520 were people of color or women, was that it didn't 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:41.120 work for me to go and speak to the to 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:43.120 them as a group and say, hey, there's a job 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:45.560 for you. You know, it pays really well, you don't 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:48.160 need a college degree. They need to hear that message 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:51.520 from people like them that they trusted. So the first 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:54.080 thing we did was we partnered with the Boys and 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:57.600 Girls Club and we said, would you be willing to 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:01.439 give this good news? Uh two kids in your program 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:05.480 that are that are coming out of high school. Um, 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:08.080 that there are companies that will hire them if they're 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:11.239 willing to put in, you know, six months of effectively 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:14.280 night school. UM. And they said, you bet, we would 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:17.800 love to do that. And I think there's countless community 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:20.400 based organizations that we could partner with. You know, there's churches, 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:24.520 there's black girls who code, there's I mean, name any 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:27.440 community based organization that has the trust of women or 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:30.640 people of color, and they could do that. And then 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:35.599 I did the work of going to employers and saying, Okay, 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:38.640 you say that you want to hire diverse folks, are 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:43.120 you actually willing to invest in those people? Um? And 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:45.960 what I mean by invest are you willing to pay 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:50.880 for their education? Um? Are you willing to mentor them? 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:54.880 Are you willing to hire them as apprentices instead of 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:57.960 you know, demanding that you hire mid to senior level people. 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:00.360 If you're willing to do that, you could be a 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:03.760 part of the solution. And it was really actually encouraging 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:08.520 how quickly I got yeses. So Nike said yes, Envision, 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:12.560 which is a great design tool, said yes. Um. A 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:16.640 couple other Portland based companies said yes. A treehouse we're 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:18.960 ourselves were saying yes, we're going to hire out of 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:21.560 this program. So once you have employers who are willing 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:25.120 to invest and hire apprentices, and that's the key. They 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:28.480 need to stop demanding that they can hire you know, 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:32.280 mid to senior level people. UM. And then it takes 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:35.680 community based organizations to spread the good news and to recruit. 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:38.000 And then it takes a you know, a school like 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:43.040 Treehouse or another school to be the education piece. Um, 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:47.760 that's affordable. UM. Once you get that going, I were 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:50.680 starting to see that this is actually, um, you know, 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:56.160 a very primitive beginning UM to the to the answer 0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:59.840 to this solution. It's not working exactly correctly. You know, 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:03.600 we're learning things. Some things aren't going correctly, but so 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:07.560 far it's it's exciting and I can't wait to see 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:11.280 how this first class does. Yeah, how many people are 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:13.200 in the class and how long have you been doing it? 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:15.720 And have any of them landed jobs? It's a small 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:20.560 um trial. So it's twelve folks are in the class. Um, 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:23.760 they're all Latin X, which is interesting. UM. I think 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:27.120 it was just kind of um, the look of the draw. 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:29.840 As far as the Boys and Girls Club in Portland 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:33.320 and who they were recruiting. UM. They are currently going 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:37.000 through the program. They're about two months in UM. And 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:41.080 you know, the employers were all really excited, UM. And 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:44.800 the class is doing well. This it is not without 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:48.080 its challenges. I mean, you know, these folks are some 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:52.120 of the hardest working people I've ever met. UM. But 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:54.720 you know, some of these folks are working fifty hours 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:58.560 a week plus learning on treehouse and you know they're 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:02.240 getting paid you know, bare minimum wage. UM. A lot 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:05.520 of them have challenges with their families where UM. You know, 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:08.280 for instance, a mother in law has kicked them out 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:11.640 of the house because of various issues, and they're trying 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:15.640 to make it on their dad's couch. You know, at work, 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:20.400 you know there's significant challenges. UM. But even with that, 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:23.080 we're seeing, UM, a lot of hope and a lot 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:26.120 of hard work and a lot of excitement. UM. So 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:28.720 I'm excited. You know we're gonna learn. It's not gonna 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:32.080 work perfectly. And that's exactly the point, Like we can't 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:36.680 fix diversity inclusion. And you know, one program in one year, 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:39.960 it'll take you years and years of hard work. You 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:44.840 mentioned that some of your students have trouble balancing their jobs, 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:49.280 their work week, with with coding school. And I thought 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:52.800 it was interesting that you talk about these issues of access. 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:56.200 You know, treehouse is affordable, but at the same time 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:58.280 it's it's a luxury to be able to devote time 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:00.720 to something even at night, if you have of you know, 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:05.040 full time job and let's say childcare or family responsibilities. 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:08.240 And I wonder if there are other examples of things 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:12.040 like that that became apparent to you once your eyes 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:15.399 were open to how not level this playing field is, yes, 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:21.600 and big eye openings with what women have to deal with. Um. 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:26.439 I think it was just by really listening to folks 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:30.679 like Susan Fowler at uber and and then talking to 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:36.360 more women and saying is this like common, this totally insane, 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:41.160 disgusting behavior, and over and over pep women saying yes, Yeah, 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:42.800 of course it is. I've been dealing with stuff my 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:47.159 whole life, and and and and being shocked by that, 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:49.879 but then over and over hearing it to the point 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:51.959 where I had to believe it. One thing we did 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:55.560 at Trios is we anonymized our our job application, so 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:59.080 there's no name, there's no there's no indication of age 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:04.680 or or race or gender, or anything, And UM, what 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:07.200 was brutal is that we actually started hiring more women 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:12.639 when we did that. And I know it's and it's sad, 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:15.160 isn't it. I mean it's it's like, hey, aren't we 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:19.120 aren't we okay? Here? Aren't we not sexist? But it 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:24.080 it proves almost everybody has hidden biases and you have 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:28.680 to systematically root them out, UM, and not just say, oh, 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:31.480 we think we're okay, because you're probably not. I just 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:33.520 want to ask one last question. And we're talking a 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:36.840 lot about getting in the door being hired, and you 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:39.560 wrote a post on medium about Leslie Miley, who is 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:43.119 UM one of the few black engineers at Twitter to 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:45.520 rise up very high in the company, but he ultimately 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:48.320 left because he couldn't figure out how to get the 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:51.320 company to hire more people like him. So what do 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:53.040 you think about that? What are you doing about that? 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:55.439 Once you have these people at the companies, how do 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:58.879 you make sure that the company is still inclusive? So 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:01.280 you bring up a vital point. It Really what I'm 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:05.919 learning is that it's a two pillar solution and you 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:09.840 can't just UM fix the talent pipeline. You also have 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:15.080 to do massive inclusion training. UM. And so you know, 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:19.320 at Treehouse we're getting really aggressive about doing inclusion training, 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:24.879 especially for managers. Uh And and what's interesting though is 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:27.200 Google did this and it didn't work. I mean, look 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:32.880 at James Demore right, uh, ugly sexist behavior right that 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:38.200 was unchecked, unnoticed. Uh and and it wasn't rooted out. 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:44.080 So it means that inclusion training isn't enough. And so um, 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:47.720 it's a you know, the tough answer is I don't 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:51.480 know exactly, you know, systematically how to fix this issue 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:54.320 other than the CEO needs to identify it as a 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:58.320 problem and fund it um and aggressively work on it 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:02.399 for years. Other as nothing will change. Well, thank you 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:05.479 so much for taking the time and talking to us. 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:15.879 Ryan said a lot about underrepresented groups and women and 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:19.240 people of color and how they're treated differently in the workplace. 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:22.120 And I think all of that stuff is really important. 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:24.680 But before we go too far down the road of 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:28.960 discrimination against certain groups, we should explain that the reason 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:32.280 we're talking about that stuff in this specific context isn't 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:36.359 so much just to point out inequality. It's to say 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:39.719 that there's all kinds of invisible things that you don't 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:43.760 really see that can make the playing field uneven. And 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:46.399 that has to do with, you know, the group that 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:48.159 you come from and the advantages and the access that 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:51.879 you had. Yeah, hearing him tell his story of his upbringing, 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:54.320 he pointed out some of these things, but you could 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:57.800 even hear some of the other things that helped him 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:00.480 get where he is today. So you know, he not 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:03.080 only came from an upper middle class background and happened 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:05.440 to go to college, but he said he had a mentor, 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:08.840 and he said that his school happened to teach computer science. 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:11.919 I think all those little things our advantages that he 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:14.520 had that other people didn't. Yeah, it just goes to 0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:17.960 show how far back you have to go to really 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:20.399 be able to see all of the access points and 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:23.280 entry points that you get towards you know, what ends 0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:25.800 up being a good career. And you know, if you 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:27.520 set up a system at the end of it and 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:31.640 you say all good ideas are welcome, I think the danger, 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:34.240 Like a meritocracy is a good idea, and we should 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:38.040 all be working toward something that really feels fair, that 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:40.200 has you know, where people are judged on their merit. 0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:43.200 But I think the danger is in setting up a 0:21:43.240 --> 0:21:46.080 system and then leaving it alone. Because you think you've 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:49.000 done enough because you've taken away the obvious barriers, because 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:51.400 there's so many more settle barriers and they go way, way, 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:55.200 way deep into our histories. So it's about creating those 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:58.600 systems and then doing lots more to sort of reach 0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:03.560 back and find those other kind of hidden inequalities and 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:07.200 try to level the playing field in other ways. Sounds 0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:10.639 like a lot of work. Yeah, it's like it's like 0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:13.080 Ryan said, companies have to be willing to do it. Yeah, 0:22:14.160 --> 0:22:20.119 and out of time for half pick takes, happy fake takes, 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:23.480 you can call in with your own half baked take 0:22:23.560 --> 0:22:28.320 at two and two six one seven zero one six six. Francesca, 0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:33.600 what is your too hot to handle opinion that you 0:22:33.680 --> 0:22:39.280 need to share? Um, this is nominally about office where 0:22:39.560 --> 0:22:42.320 I would like to I would like some help understanding, 0:22:42.920 --> 0:22:44.760 maybe from our male listeners, if you want to weigh 0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:49.159 in why it seems like a lot of men don't 0:22:49.280 --> 0:22:56.000 understand the difference between a skirt and address. They're very 0:22:56.080 --> 0:23:00.760 distinct items of clothing. I understand that men don't wear them, 0:23:00.800 --> 0:23:02.840 but it seems to me like the difference is really 0:23:02.880 --> 0:23:06.520 obvious and it's not like, you know, it's not like 0:23:06.800 --> 0:23:08.760 being a man and not knowing the difference between like 0:23:09.400 --> 0:23:13.000