Speaker 1: We all want to believe that hard work is the
Speaker 1: reason for our success. It's hard to admit that you've
Speaker 1: got a leg up when you feel like you put
Speaker 1: in a lot of effort to get where you are.
Speaker 1: But the reality is the workplace isn't a level playing field.
Speaker 1: This is game plan. Hi. I'm Rebecca Greenfield and I'm
Speaker 1: Francesco Levy, and this week we're talking about meritocracy and
Speaker 1: why that is such an appealing narrative and also why
Speaker 1: it's not real. Oh so, before we get into it,
Speaker 1: I think we need to define meritocracy, which is this
Speaker 1: idea that the people who work the hardest and have
Speaker 1: the most talents will succeed based on their merits. Merit accracy,
Speaker 1: thanks for the etymology. Yeah, it is super appealing if
Speaker 1: your company. You can kind of look around at older
Speaker 1: systems where people got ahead because of who they know
Speaker 1: or because they went to the right fancy private schools,
Speaker 1: and you can say, well, that's clearly unfair. Let me
Speaker 1: put something into place where everyone is free to submit
Speaker 1: an idea to upper management and then we'll just look
Speaker 1: at all those ideas and the best idea will rise
Speaker 1: to the top, and it has nothing to do with
Speaker 1: who you are. So it's a really nice way of
Speaker 1: feeling like you've cleared up all those pesky sort of
Speaker 1: issues of bias and advantage. Yeah. I think we've worked
Speaker 1: in places where you look around and you say that
Speaker 1: person is where they are because of how they were born. Yeah. There,
Speaker 1: it's definitely kind of demoralizing whenever you work around other
Speaker 1: people who you know have only kept their jobs or
Speaker 1: only risen to their level because you know they had
Speaker 1: the right allies in the company, or they are just
Speaker 1: somehow too important to fire, or they you know, long
Speaker 1: ago got some advantage and they just sort of rode
Speaker 1: their status to the top, and you're here just trying
Speaker 1: to make it on the value you of your hard
Speaker 1: work and your ideas, or so you think. And then
Speaker 1: if you work in a meritocracy, you can tell yourself
Speaker 1: that the reason for your successes was your hard work
Speaker 1: and that nothing else got you to where you are.
Speaker 1: So it feels pretty good on a personal level too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So that's why the idea looks so good to both
Speaker 1: management and workers. But I think that that ideas falls
Speaker 1: and we're going to get into that more. But I
Speaker 1: think before we get into it, it's interesting to look
Speaker 1: back at the history of meritocracy and it started in
Speaker 1: Silicon Valley, which should not be a surprise because, like i'mlie,
Speaker 1: is still very obsessed with this idea. But I found
Speaker 1: that the founder of Intel, when he was going to
Speaker 1: start a company, as you mentioned, he was trying to
Speaker 1: get away from all these old systems that he thought
Speaker 1: were unfair and he didn't want to tap down hierarchy,
Speaker 1: so he decided to create his company as a meritocracy
Speaker 1: that awarded people's ideas and not their status in the
Speaker 1: company or how many years they've been working at the company. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you're right, Silicon Valley is still totally obsessed with
Speaker 1: this idea. I think maybe because a lot of the
Speaker 1: substance of the work feels like tangible things you can measure,
Speaker 1: like you know, it's computer code. It's it's not emotional,
Speaker 1: it's not about relationships. We just we take the best
Speaker 1: code and we make the best programs. And I mean
Speaker 1: I'm simplifying tech here. Obviously we basically go there. YEA
Speaker 1: really um, but you can you can say you have
Speaker 1: some basis on which to say, Look, anybody can start
Speaker 1: their own app. These days, people start companies with very
Speaker 1: little money all the time. So, you know, we've really
Speaker 1: created a world here in Silicon Valley where um the
Speaker 1: best ideas succeed, not the you know, most advantaged people.
Speaker 1: And the heroes of Silicon Valley are people who people
Speaker 1: point to and say, look that they didn't go to college,
Speaker 1: or they didn't finish college, or they came from nothing.
Speaker 1: They're not part of these dynasties, and so their proof
Speaker 1: that the meritocracy is working. But even when you look
Speaker 1: at that idea, that turns out to be false. So
Speaker 1: one of these years, as this guy Max love Chen,
Speaker 1: who among other things, he founded yea piece, very very
Speaker 1: wealthy um and people point to him is saying like, look,
Speaker 1: he was an immigrant. His parents came here, they had
Speaker 1: I think the Laura's three dollars in their pocket, and
Speaker 1: now their son is the successful entrepreneur. But in an
Speaker 1: interview he himself said that that is not true and
Speaker 1: that he did have certain advantages, specifically that his parents
Speaker 1: really told him that they need that he needed to
Speaker 1: learn a skill, and they came with educational backgrounds and
Speaker 1: they told him education was important. And he said without that,
Speaker 1: he wouldn't have thought that he could have succeeded. So
Speaker 1: right there, there's something that on its face looks like
Speaker 1: somebody rising to the top just because of the value
Speaker 1: of his work, And actually there's a lot more to it,
Speaker 1: and it's pretty easy to pick apart that I do
Speaker 1: more broadly in Silicon Valley, because you can just look
Speaker 1: around and see, um, it's not a very diverse place.
Speaker 1: I think one of the most obvious indicators that this
Speaker 1: meritocracy idea isn't working in Silicon Valley is that pretty
Speaker 1: much the same p will rise to the top through
Speaker 1: a meritocracy as would through a more traditional system, a
Speaker 1: more traditional hierarchy. And there are plenty of people who
Speaker 1: think that's fine. You know, they say, look, if we
Speaker 1: take away the barriers, or if we seem to be
Speaker 1: taking away the barriers by just giving everybody the same access,
Speaker 1: then it shouldn't matter, you know, the race or gender
Speaker 1: or economic background of the people who tend to make it.
Speaker 1: But then there are other ways of looking at it
Speaker 1: where you say, look, if the only people who can
Speaker 1: make it are still, you know, people from pretty affluent
Speaker 1: backgrounds who tend to be white and tend to be male,
Speaker 1: then you might want to reevaluate how merit based your
Speaker 1: system really is. Yeah, and slowly some companies and people
Speaker 1: in Silicon Valley are starting to see that the system
Speaker 1: isn't really a level of playing field. We talked to
Speaker 1: someone who used to believe in meritocracy until he very
Speaker 1: recently changed his mind, Ryan Carson, as the CEO of Treehouse,
Speaker 1: a coding school based in Portland, Oregon. He changed companies,
Speaker 1: practices an entire outlook on education after realizing the system
Speaker 1: wasn't as fair as he thought. You're now the CEO
Speaker 1: of your own company. Um, you have eighty employees, You've
Speaker 1: raised over a twelve million dollars. How did you get
Speaker 1: to where you are now? Uh? Well, I grew up
Speaker 1: in Colorado and I was exposed to computers early. I
Speaker 1: was privileged in that sense, and I got interested incoding
Speaker 1: when I was in ninth grade because I was lucky
Speaker 1: to have a teacher say to me, Hey, Ryan, have
Speaker 1: you ever heard of this thing when you tell the
Speaker 1: computer what to do? And I thought, what that sounds
Speaker 1: amazing and as she said, yeah, it's called programming, and
Speaker 1: uh we had a class at my school. Um, so
Speaker 1: I took it and fell in love. And then went
Speaker 1: on to study computer science at Clorida State and graduated
Speaker 1: in the year two thousand and Um. I decided that
Speaker 1: I wanted some adventure in my life. So I moved
Speaker 1: to England and didn't know a soul, which was exciting,
Speaker 1: and I got a job as a developer. And then
Speaker 1: that's when this realization kind of struck me that my
Speaker 1: my degree didn't relate to what I was doing in
Speaker 1: my job, and that bothered me. And so fast forward
Speaker 1: seven years later, I actually started a company to to
Speaker 1: solve that problem. So got involved in this idea of hey,
Speaker 1: let's empower people by teaching them technology and all this
Speaker 1: was founded upon this idea that tech as a meritocracy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: at what point did you realize the tech world wasn't
Speaker 1: a meritocracy. It was about a year ago. And so, um,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm a white male, I'm straight, I'm tall,
Speaker 1: I'm kind of you know, I'm educated. I grew up
Speaker 1: in a middle to high income family. I just have
Speaker 1: so much privilege. And I didn't really see that truly.
Speaker 1: You know, I thought, hey, you know, I'm lucky. Some
Speaker 1: things have gone my way. Um, but on the whole,
Speaker 1: you know, I've worked hard, I've learned how to code.
Speaker 1: I've gotten to where I am because I kind of
Speaker 1: pulled myself up by my bootstraps. And what I realized
Speaker 1: is that, um, that is just not true. I have
Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of chips, you know, stacked in my favor.
Speaker 1: And the reason why I found this out is because
Speaker 1: about a year ago I signed the Diversity Pledge here
Speaker 1: in Portland and it basically is a group of companies
Speaker 1: that's that are agreeing to lean in and try to
Speaker 1: work on the problem of diversity and tech and inclusion.
Speaker 1: And I entered that that group, you know, thinking, hey,
Speaker 1: I basically, um, you know, I'm super moral. I I'm
Speaker 1: definitely not sexist. I'm definitely not racist, and I just
Speaker 1: want to help um and and I run a school
Speaker 1: that teaches technology. It's super affordable, it's online, so you know,
Speaker 1: all people have to do is is use a school
Speaker 1: like Treehouse to learn how to code, and then they
Speaker 1: can pull themselves up by their bootstraps to UM. And
Speaker 1: then I actually talked to people of color and women
Speaker 1: in depth to say, why are we having this problem?
Speaker 1: I really don't get it. Help me understand. And one
Speaker 1: of the most brutal conversations. I had was with a
Speaker 1: guy in Boston who said, Ryan, let me put it
Speaker 1: like this. He said, you know, you coming into our
Speaker 1: community as a white guy with a computer science degree.
Speaker 1: You know, we're all black, and you're telling us, Hey,
Speaker 1: you can get a job in tech. You know you
Speaker 1: can learn, you don't need a college degree. Is just
Speaker 1: like the white preachers who came into the projects and
Speaker 1: tried to plant churches and told the community that they
Speaker 1: had something that they needed, you know, they had a
Speaker 1: solution to their problems. And he said, Ryan, I don't
Speaker 1: trust you, like I don't know you. You You don't look
Speaker 1: like me. Um, you know, why why should I believe you? Um?
Speaker 1: And why do you think you have something that I need?
Speaker 1: And that was really humbling, UM, And I think it
Speaker 1: just opened my eyes to how insane the idea is that, Um,
Speaker 1: everybody grew up like me and has the the access
Speaker 1: and the desire and the role models. You describe this
Speaker 1: period where you believed in meritocracy and then kind of
Speaker 1: a turning point that you had where you realized, like,
Speaker 1: were you having problems that led you to this kind
Speaker 1: of you know, pivotal conclusion that changed everything yes. So
Speaker 1: you know, at Treehouse we have eighty thousand students. Um
Speaker 1: and and I and I might if I believed it
Speaker 1: was a meritocracy, then we should see a ton of
Speaker 1: people of color and women coming out of our program.
Speaker 1: And we just weren't. Um And so it was kind
Speaker 1: of a slap in the face that I don't understand,
Speaker 1: you know why tres is only twenty five bucks a month,
Speaker 1: Like this seems so affordable. You don't have to go
Speaker 1: to college, Like why and uh. And it was just
Speaker 1: I felt, you know, absolutely baffled by it. And uh,
Speaker 1: in hindsight, it's so obvious to me that it's almost embarrassing. Um.
Speaker 1: But you know, I'm so glad I see it now.
Speaker 1: This idea of meritocracy is so ingrained in the technology world.
Speaker 1: Have you run up against people who are just disagree
Speaker 1: with you? Um, yes, all the time. And and uh.
Speaker 1: I was actually on a big podcast the other day
Speaker 1: and I don't want to name names, but um, you know,
Speaker 1: they basically said, I don't get it. You know, are
Speaker 1: you sure this isn't a meritocracy. Why can't people just
Speaker 1: work harder and hustle and and teach themselves? And um,
Speaker 1: I just had to say what I've been saying over
Speaker 1: and over again. They weren't raised like you. I think
Speaker 1: it's mostly white men that believe this. I like myself
Speaker 1: and I can speak like that because the white guy
Speaker 1: who grew up, you know, in a basically rich family
Speaker 1: with a college degree. So I think almost every uh
Speaker 1: white male that you run into probably believes this, and
Speaker 1: some of us are beginning to, you know, shake off
Speaker 1: those shackles and realize it's just not true and we
Speaker 1: should be a part of the solution. So once you
Speaker 1: came to realize all this, how did you address it?
Speaker 1: What were the solutions that you started to apply to
Speaker 1: your company. So the first thing that the main message
Speaker 1: I heard from folks that I was talking to who
Speaker 1: were people of color or women, was that it didn't
Speaker 1: work for me to go and speak to the to
Speaker 1: them as a group and say, hey, there's a job
Speaker 1: for you. You know, it pays really well, you don't
Speaker 1: need a college degree. They need to hear that message
Speaker 1: from people like them that they trusted. So the first
Speaker 1: thing we did was we partnered with the Boys and
Speaker 1: Girls Club and we said, would you be willing to
Speaker 1: give this good news? Uh two kids in your program
Speaker 1: that are that are coming out of high school. Um,
Speaker 1: that there are companies that will hire them if they're
Speaker 1: willing to put in, you know, six months of effectively
Speaker 1: night school. UM. And they said, you bet, we would
Speaker 1: love to do that. And I think there's countless community
Speaker 1: based organizations that we could partner with. You know, there's churches,
Speaker 1: there's black girls who code, there's I mean, name any
Speaker 1: community based organization that has the trust of women or
Speaker 1: people of color, and they could do that. And then
Speaker 1: I did the work of going to employers and saying, Okay,
Speaker 1: you say that you want to hire diverse folks, are
Speaker 1: you actually willing to invest in those people? Um? And
Speaker 1: what I mean by invest are you willing to pay
Speaker 1: for their education? Um? Are you willing to mentor them?
Speaker 1: Are you willing to hire them as apprentices instead of
Speaker 1: you know, demanding that you hire mid to senior level people.
Speaker 1: If you're willing to do that, you could be a
Speaker 1: part of the solution. And it was really actually encouraging
Speaker 1: how quickly I got yeses. So Nike said yes, Envision,
Speaker 1: which is a great design tool, said yes. Um. A
Speaker 1: couple other Portland based companies said yes. A treehouse we're
Speaker 1: ourselves were saying yes, we're going to hire out of
Speaker 1: this program. So once you have employers who are willing
Speaker 1: to invest and hire apprentices, and that's the key. They
Speaker 1: need to stop demanding that they can hire you know,
Speaker 1: mid to senior level people. UM. And then it takes
Speaker 1: community based organizations to spread the good news and to recruit.
Speaker 1: And then it takes a you know, a school like
Speaker 1: Treehouse or another school to be the education piece. Um,
Speaker 1: that's affordable. UM. Once you get that going, I were
Speaker 1: starting to see that this is actually, um, you know,
Speaker 1: a very primitive beginning UM to the to the answer
Speaker 1: to this solution. It's not working exactly correctly. You know,
Speaker 1: we're learning things. Some things aren't going correctly, but so
Speaker 1: far it's it's exciting and I can't wait to see
Speaker 1: how this first class does. Yeah, how many people are
Speaker 1: in the class and how long have you been doing it?
Speaker 1: And have any of them landed jobs? It's a small
Speaker 1: um trial. So it's twelve folks are in the class. Um,
Speaker 1: they're all Latin X, which is interesting. UM. I think
Speaker 1: it was just kind of um, the look of the draw.
Speaker 1: As far as the Boys and Girls Club in Portland
Speaker 1: and who they were recruiting. UM. They are currently going
Speaker 1: through the program. They're about two months in UM. And
Speaker 1: you know, the employers were all really excited, UM. And
Speaker 1: the class is doing well. This it is not without
Speaker 1: its challenges. I mean, you know, these folks are some
Speaker 1: of the hardest working people I've ever met. UM. But
Speaker 1: you know, some of these folks are working fifty hours
Speaker 1: a week plus learning on treehouse and you know they're
Speaker 1: getting paid you know, bare minimum wage. UM. A lot
Speaker 1: of them have challenges with their families where UM. You know,
Speaker 1: for instance, a mother in law has kicked them out
Speaker 1: of the house because of various issues, and they're trying
Speaker 1: to make it on their dad's couch. You know, at work,
Speaker 1: you know there's significant challenges. UM. But even with that,
Speaker 1: we're seeing, UM, a lot of hope and a lot
Speaker 1: of hard work and a lot of excitement. UM. So
Speaker 1: I'm excited. You know we're gonna learn. It's not gonna
Speaker 1: work perfectly. And that's exactly the point, Like we can't
Speaker 1: fix diversity inclusion. And you know, one program in one year,
Speaker 1: it'll take you years and years of hard work. You
Speaker 1: mentioned that some of your students have trouble balancing their jobs,
Speaker 1: their work week, with with coding school. And I thought
Speaker 1: it was interesting that you talk about these issues of access.
Speaker 1: You know, treehouse is affordable, but at the same time
Speaker 1: it's it's a luxury to be able to devote time
Speaker 1: to something even at night, if you have of you know,
Speaker 1: full time job and let's say childcare or family responsibilities.
Speaker 1: And I wonder if there are other examples of things
Speaker 1: like that that became apparent to you once your eyes
Speaker 1: were open to how not level this playing field is, yes,
Speaker 1: and big eye openings with what women have to deal with. Um.
Speaker 1: I think it was just by really listening to folks
Speaker 1: like Susan Fowler at uber and and then talking to
Speaker 1: more women and saying is this like common, this totally insane,
Speaker 1: disgusting behavior, and over and over pep women saying yes, Yeah,
Speaker 1: of course it is. I've been dealing with stuff my
Speaker 1: whole life, and and and and being shocked by that,
Speaker 1: but then over and over hearing it to the point
Speaker 1: where I had to believe it. One thing we did
Speaker 1: at Trios is we anonymized our our job application, so
Speaker 1: there's no name, there's no there's no indication of age
Speaker 1: or or race or gender, or anything, And UM, what
Speaker 1: was brutal is that we actually started hiring more women
Speaker 1: when we did that. And I know it's and it's sad,
Speaker 1: isn't it. I mean it's it's like, hey, aren't we
Speaker 1: aren't we okay? Here? Aren't we not sexist? But it
Speaker 1: it proves almost everybody has hidden biases and you have
Speaker 1: to systematically root them out, UM, and not just say, oh,
Speaker 1: we think we're okay, because you're probably not. I just
Speaker 1: want to ask one last question. And we're talking a
Speaker 1: lot about getting in the door being hired, and you
Speaker 1: wrote a post on medium about Leslie Miley, who is
Speaker 1: UM one of the few black engineers at Twitter to
Speaker 1: rise up very high in the company, but he ultimately
Speaker 1: left because he couldn't figure out how to get the
Speaker 1: company to hire more people like him. So what do
Speaker 1: you think about that? What are you doing about that?
Speaker 1: Once you have these people at the companies, how do
Speaker 1: you make sure that the company is still inclusive? So
Speaker 1: you bring up a vital point. It Really what I'm
Speaker 1: learning is that it's a two pillar solution and you
Speaker 1: can't just UM fix the talent pipeline. You also have
Speaker 1: to do massive inclusion training. UM. And so you know,
Speaker 1: at Treehouse we're getting really aggressive about doing inclusion training,
Speaker 1: especially for managers. Uh And and what's interesting though is
Speaker 1: Google did this and it didn't work. I mean, look
Speaker 1: at James Demore right, uh, ugly sexist behavior right that
Speaker 1: was unchecked, unnoticed. Uh and and it wasn't rooted out.
Speaker 1: So it means that inclusion training isn't enough. And so um,
Speaker 1: it's a you know, the tough answer is I don't
Speaker 1: know exactly, you know, systematically how to fix this issue
Speaker 1: other than the CEO needs to identify it as a
Speaker 1: problem and fund it um and aggressively work on it
Speaker 1: for years. Other as nothing will change. Well, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for taking the time and talking to us.
Speaker 1: Ryan said a lot about underrepresented groups and women and
Speaker 1: people of color and how they're treated differently in the workplace.
Speaker 1: And I think all of that stuff is really important.
Speaker 1: But before we go too far down the road of
Speaker 1: discrimination against certain groups, we should explain that the reason
Speaker 1: we're talking about that stuff in this specific context isn't
Speaker 1: so much just to point out inequality. It's to say
Speaker 1: that there's all kinds of invisible things that you don't
Speaker 1: really see that can make the playing field uneven. And
Speaker 1: that has to do with, you know, the group that
Speaker 1: you come from and the advantages and the access that
Speaker 1: you had. Yeah, hearing him tell his story of his upbringing,
Speaker 1: he pointed out some of these things, but you could
Speaker 1: even hear some of the other things that helped him
Speaker 1: get where he is today. So you know, he not
Speaker 1: only came from an upper middle class background and happened
Speaker 1: to go to college, but he said he had a mentor,
Speaker 1: and he said that his school happened to teach computer science.
Speaker 1: I think all those little things our advantages that he
Speaker 1: had that other people didn't. Yeah, it just goes to
Speaker 1: show how far back you have to go to really
Speaker 1: be able to see all of the access points and
Speaker 1: entry points that you get towards you know, what ends
Speaker 1: up being a good career. And you know, if you
Speaker 1: set up a system at the end of it and
Speaker 1: you say all good ideas are welcome, I think the danger,
Speaker 1: Like a meritocracy is a good idea, and we should
Speaker 1: all be working toward something that really feels fair, that
Speaker 1: has you know, where people are judged on their merit.
Speaker 1: But I think the danger is in setting up a
Speaker 1: system and then leaving it alone. Because you think you've
Speaker 1: done enough because you've taken away the obvious barriers, because
Speaker 1: there's so many more settle barriers and they go way, way,
Speaker 1: way deep into our histories. So it's about creating those
Speaker 1: systems and then doing lots more to sort of reach
Speaker 1: back and find those other kind of hidden inequalities and
Speaker 1: try to level the playing field in other ways. Sounds
Speaker 1: like a lot of work. Yeah, it's like it's like
Speaker 1: Ryan said, companies have to be willing to do it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and out of time for half pick takes, happy fake takes,
Speaker 1: you can call in with your own half baked take
Speaker 1: at two and two six one seven zero one six six. Francesca,
Speaker 1: what is your too hot to handle opinion that you
Speaker 1: need to share? Um, this is nominally about office where
Speaker 1: I would like to I would like some help understanding,
Speaker 1: maybe from our male listeners, if you want to weigh
Speaker 1: in why it seems like a lot of men don't
Speaker 1: understand the difference between a skirt and address. They're very
Speaker 1: distinct items of clothing. I understand that men don't wear them,
Speaker 1: but it seems to me like the difference is really
Speaker 1: obvious and it's not like, you know, it's not like
Speaker 1: being a man and not knowing the difference between like
Speaker 1: eyeliner and eyeshadow, Like it's not that obscure and they're
Speaker 1: super different. Okay, Okay, I think you need to back
Speaker 1: up and tell us why you think men don't know
Speaker 1: the difference, because, over the course of my adult life, dozens,
Speaker 1: maybe more hundreds, nay thousands, Okay, I don't know if
Speaker 1: I know thousands of men, but plenty of men have
Speaker 1: said things like nice dress when they met, nice skirt,
Speaker 1: or the other way around. Yeah, I think it's happened
Speaker 1: to me now that you're saying it. It has. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's happened, it has, so it must be true. It's
Speaker 1: it happens a lot. And then, actually, female listeners and you, Rebecca,
Speaker 1: should try this. Ask a few of the men in
Speaker 1: your life, challenge them to tell you the difference between
Speaker 1: a skirt and address, and I bet you will find
Speaker 1: a few of them don't know. By the way, if
Speaker 1: anybody doesn't know a skirt only covers the bottom half
Speaker 1: of your body, it seems obvious to us. But I
Speaker 1: guess it's just like I'm trying to think of a
Speaker 1: male equivalent, like a thing that I thought we don't know. Well,
Speaker 1: the thing men wear that women don't wear, that is
Speaker 1: very outward, that is very public that I just feel
Speaker 1: like you should know as a man, the difference between
Speaker 1: a skirt and a dres A man as like an
Speaker 1: adult who's not a child, who knows what clothing means. Also,
Speaker 1: I describe it as like a skirt as part of
Speaker 1: a two piece outfit, right, and addresses like one dress
Speaker 1: as a whole piece of clothing. Yeah, so yeah, he
Speaker 1: heard it here first defining dress. Yeah, he's finding a
Speaker 1: lot of angry listener feedback on this for men who
Speaker 1: do know the difference. And um, just for the record,
Speaker 1: are our producer Magnus is a man, and he did
Speaker 1: correctly identify the difference between a skirt and address. Becca,
Speaker 1: what's your half big take? So we had a recent
Speaker 1: long weekend, and my half bag take is that if
Speaker 1: you stay in town for the long weekend, it feels longer.
Speaker 1: Amen to that because I was in the city all
Speaker 1: three days and it went on forever. Must be nice
Speaker 1: because I went on a trip And yeah, you basically
Speaker 1: have to leave leave on the third day, so you
Speaker 1: don't really get the day. There's all that travel time
Speaker 1: plus it's just like activity packed, which I think can
Speaker 1: make things feel shorter. Yeah, I'm right, I'm right, but
Speaker 1: but but I just I like going away, so it's hard. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's like I actually came back from a long
Speaker 1: weekend feeling like usually when people ask how your weekend was, like,
Speaker 1: the pithy refrain is like, m it was too short,
Speaker 1: And I was like, this weekend was kind of too long,
Speaker 1: Like I didn't know. Okay, Okay, I get it. You
Speaker 1: stayed in town and the greatest weekend. No. I stayed
Speaker 1: in rainy Brooklyn and found ways to entertain my baby.
Speaker 1: I was ready to get back to work. Okay, I
Speaker 1: just shamed you hating your weekend. And this has been
Speaker 1: half big takes, ha fake takes. Thanks for listening to
Speaker 1: another episode of game Plan. You can find me on
Speaker 1: Twitter at rs Greenfield and I'm at Francesco today. If
Speaker 1: you have thoughts, have fig takes, or your opinion on
Speaker 1: scripts versus dresses, you can tweet at us. You can
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Speaker 1: get it. It's really not as hard as she's making
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Speaker 1: was produced by Liz Smith and Magnus Henrickson. And we'll
Speaker 1: see you next week good bye. Yeah, fine, I'll do that,
Speaker 1: but it's annoying. That's just annoying. I have to go
Speaker 1: downstairs and get a tea bag and go back upstairs
Speaker 1: and get my tea. Can't you just get hot water? Oh?
Speaker 1: Got hot water and bring it down. Yes, I can
Speaker 1: do that, Okay,