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Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're trying

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Speaker 1: to get one of those mommy crops from Natasha cloud

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Speaker 1: at Unrivaled, but also the data Evans apps to go

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Speaker 1: with it.

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Speaker 2: Please thank you.

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Speaker 1: It's Wednesday, January fourteenth, and on today show, we'll be

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Speaker 1: skipping the need to know and getting straight to my

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Speaker 1: conversation with Big East commissioner and former president of the

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Speaker 1: WNBA Val Ackerman. I caught up with her on Monday

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Speaker 1: to discuss how her previous career stops have influenced her

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Speaker 1: work as commissioner of a conference, how her job has

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Speaker 1: changed in the post nil transfer portal era, and how

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Speaker 1: the disparity between the football.

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Speaker 2: Haves and football have nots is growing every day. It's

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Speaker 2: coming up right after this slices.

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Speaker 1: I want to jump in here quickly before I play

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Speaker 1: my interview with Val Ackerman and apologies for my voice.

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Speaker 1: I have acquired the thing going around all right. Before

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Speaker 1: you listen to this conversation, I think it'd be useful

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Speaker 1: to give you a brief Big East history lesson so

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Speaker 1: you just understand our conversation a little better. The original

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Speaker 1: Big East was founded as a basketball centric conference in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine by Providence College basketball coach Dave Gabbett,

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Speaker 1: and it included Providence, Saint John's, Georgetown, Syracuse, Seaton Hall, Yukon,

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Speaker 1: and Boston College.

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Speaker 2: The conference remained largely the.

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Speaker 1: Same until nineteen ninety one, when it started to sponsor football,

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Speaker 1: adding the University of Miami as a full member and Rutgers, Temple,

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Speaker 1: Virginia Tech, and West Virginia as football only members. But

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Speaker 1: by two thousand, Rutgers, West Virginia, and Virginia Tech had

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Speaker 1: all transitioned from football only to full time Big East members.

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Speaker 1: The Big East also added Notre Dame as a non

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Speaker 1: football member in nineteen ninety five. Now eventually, the tensions

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Speaker 1: of having football and non football schools in the conference

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Speaker 1: led to a split. In December of twenty twelve, the

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Speaker 1: Big East seven non football schools to Paul, Georgetown, Marquette, Providence,

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Speaker 1: Saint John's, Seton Hall, and Villanova announced that they'd voted

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Speaker 1: unanimously to separate from the Big East's football playing schools.

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Speaker 1: They hung on to the Big East name, and then

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Speaker 1: they added Creighton and Xavier. Now Val was hired as

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Speaker 1: the first commission of this new look Big East in

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Speaker 1: June of twenty thirteen, and then Yukon made its return

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Speaker 1: to the conference in twenty twenty, bringing the Big East

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Speaker 1: to its current eleven schools. Football is not a sponsored

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Speaker 1: sport in the Big East, but a couple of the

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Speaker 1: schools do have teams as independents or in other conferences.

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Speaker 1: Yukon is the only one with a varsity football team

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Speaker 1: in the top NCAA level, which is Division one FBS,

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Speaker 1: whereas Butler, Georgetown, and Villanova have football teams that play

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Speaker 1: in the second level Division one FCS.

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Speaker 2: Got all that, or at least some of it. Good.

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Speaker 1: Let's get to my conversation with val from Monday, joining

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Speaker 1: us now one of the most impactful people in American

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Speaker 1: basketball history, currently the commissioner of the Big East Conference,

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Speaker 1: Formerly the first president of the WNBA. She played pro

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Speaker 1: ball for a year in France in nineteen eighty one.

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Speaker 1: A member of the Women's Basketball Hall of Fame, the

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Speaker 1: Nasmith Basketball Hall of Fame, and the New Jersey State

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Speaker 1: Interscholastic Athletic Association Hall of Fame. She got her BA

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Speaker 1: at Virginuary. She split the one women's basketball scholarship given out.

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Speaker 1: Was the school's first person to score a thousand points

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Speaker 1: and was later named to the ACC fiftieth Anniversary Women's

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Speaker 1: basketball Team. She went on to get her law degree

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Speaker 1: from UCLA, and after college was a staff attorney for

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Speaker 1: the NBA, then VP of Business Affairs, one of the

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Speaker 1: NBA's first appointees to the Board of Directors of USA Basketball,

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Speaker 1: President of the WNBA from ninety six to five, the

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Speaker 1: first female president of USA Basketball. Named the US delegate

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Speaker 1: to the Central Board of FOIBA at times a professor,

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Speaker 1: a columnist, a board member, a philanthropist. SBJ named are

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Speaker 1: one of the most influential people in sports business of

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Speaker 1: the past twenty five years, and she's a life trustee

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Speaker 1: of the Basketball Hall of Fame, which is the highest

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Speaker 1: honor a Hall of Fame board member can receive. Her

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Speaker 1: awards are many, her impact is giant. Her bio is exhausting.

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Speaker 2: It's val Ackerman, Hi Bell.

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Speaker 3: Hey Sarah, how are you?

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Speaker 2: Thanks for those Wow?

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Speaker 3: Thanks for those con words?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? Sure.

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Speaker 1: You know what My favorite thing is when you read

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Speaker 1: about someone's incredible life and they say thank you for

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Speaker 1: the kind words, and it is accurate because they are kind,

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Speaker 1: but they're also just reality.

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Speaker 2: And I am exhausted when I read.

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Speaker 1: Even a half of your bio, and I wonder, at

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Speaker 1: this point in your life, when you look back at

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Speaker 1: your resume, is there a specific stop or accomplishment that

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Speaker 1: a young val maybe fresh out of UCLA, would be

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Speaker 1: most surprised by, Like, huh, I do that later.

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Speaker 4: You know, Sarah, And I don't think any of us

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Speaker 4: know what life has in store for us. To think

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Speaker 4: about it, really, I mean, who knew?

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Speaker 3: Who knows?

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Speaker 4: I mean, some people are super driven and super focused

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Speaker 4: on what they want to do and think they can

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Speaker 4: do that. That wasn't exactly the case for me. I

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Speaker 4: you know, I just kind of followed the opportunities that

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Speaker 4: came my way and had to make some hard decisions

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Speaker 4: along the way, as many of us do, some related

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Speaker 4: to family and the obligations of being a parent, et cetera.

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Speaker 4: But I, you know, I do look back and feel

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Speaker 4: like I've had a really interesting journey and have had

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Speaker 4: the chance to work with some amazing people, yourself included.

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Speaker 4: Not just trying to flatter you here, but it's you know,

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Speaker 4: it's been a lot of fun. And you know, I

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Speaker 4: guess the thread for me has been my ability to

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Speaker 4: work in so many ways in the game of basketball,

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Speaker 4: which is a sport I so deeply love.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let's talk about the Big East, because several

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Speaker 1: jobs in the NBA, your lengthy tenure at the top

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Speaker 1: of the WNBA, some USA basketball stops, what made you

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Speaker 1: think leading a college conference was the next thing?

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Speaker 3: Well, the job came to me. I didn't seek it out.

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Speaker 4: I had been at that point out of the WNBA

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Speaker 4: for about eight years.

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Speaker 3: The departure was hard.

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Speaker 4: In many ways from the WNBA because of my role

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Speaker 4: getting it off the ground. But at the time I left,

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Speaker 4: it just sort of felt like I'd done what I

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Speaker 4: could do. My kids were getting to be of an

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Speaker 4: age that I wanted to be, you know, really more

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Speaker 4: with them than the job had allowed for. And then

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Speaker 4: other things came my way after I left the league,

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Speaker 4: so you know, again it just sort of things didn't

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Speaker 4: happen the way I expected, but they happened, and and

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Speaker 4: and you know, it was it was, it was good.

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Speaker 4: And then I guess it was twenty thirteen. The Big

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Speaker 4: East had been through a period of tremendous change. You

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Speaker 4: may even remember all the leaving comings and goings schools

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Speaker 4: that had left, largely to go to the ACC and

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Speaker 4: the so called basketball schools had made the decision to

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Speaker 4: pull away from the old league to form their new

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Speaker 4: basketball thing, reviving kind of you know, the reason that

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Speaker 4: they had formed the Big East in the first place

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Speaker 4: back in seventy nine, And some things happened to pull

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Speaker 4: all of that together to get a TV deal with

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Speaker 4: Fox Sports, some other important pillars were in place, and

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Speaker 4: then they went about looking for somebody to bring it

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Speaker 4: to life, and that was me. In twenty thirteen. I

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Speaker 4: was approached by a search firm. My younger daughter, Sally,

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Speaker 4: was just about to go off to college, and the

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Speaker 4: fact that it was sort of a startup of sorts

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Speaker 4: basketball focused here in New York City where I was based.

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Speaker 4: You know, I knew I knew Dave Gavitt, interestingly, who

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Speaker 4: founded the Big East, was someone I'd work with in

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Speaker 4: the early part of my career, and I had great

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Speaker 4: respect for him and thought, wow, you know, if I

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Speaker 4: can be part of something that Dave found it, that

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Speaker 4: was sort of it sounded like an honor to me.

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Speaker 4: So all these things just sort of came together. Didn't

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Speaker 4: really know what I was getting myself into. Because the

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Speaker 4: league was truly a startup. We had to pull everything

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Speaker 4: back together in terms of infrastructure in order to get

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Speaker 4: the league, the new Big East, off the ground. But

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Speaker 4: you know, it seemed like it would be a good

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Speaker 4: career opportunity and it certainly has been that and more.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned when you took over in twenty thirteen,

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Speaker 1: you had this task of making a basketball first conference

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Speaker 1: relevant when we were in a college football heavy world.

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Speaker 2: What do you remember about.

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Speaker 1: The expectations you had and what's been most surprising or

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Speaker 1: maybe not what you expected about the job over the

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Speaker 1: last fifteen years.

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Speaker 4: Well, when I took it, if I didn't believe that

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Speaker 4: there you know that this league could be relaunched as

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Speaker 4: Big East two point zero in a way that could

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Speaker 4: make it successful. What is that mean? Well, it means

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Speaker 4: nationally successful, relevant, competitive in you know in basketball especially.

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't have taken the position, so I guess you know,

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Speaker 4: at core, I had some thought that this could be done.

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Speaker 4: There were things I didn't know i took the job.

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Speaker 4: I'd worked in a league office setting before, that was

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Speaker 4: my life at the NBA, but I had never worked

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Speaker 4: I was a student athlete and had done some dabbling

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Speaker 4: in college sports, but I'd never worked in the space,

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Speaker 4: and so that was I would say learning curve extraordinary.

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Speaker 4: The first couple of years, just trying to understand, you know,

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Speaker 4: what it meant to have a relationship with your schools,

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Speaker 4: you know, what it meant to be part of this

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Speaker 4: huge bureaucratic, you know, operating landscape that is the MCAA.

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Speaker 4: I had a lot to learn and and so that

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Speaker 4: you know that that was you know, the first couple

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Speaker 4: of years of this understanding sports other than basketball. We

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Speaker 4: sponsored twenty two sports here, not football, but you know

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Speaker 4: we have you know, everything from field hockey to track

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Speaker 4: to volleyball and everything in between.

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Speaker 2: I like, you started with two other sports you did

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Speaker 2: in high school.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: Those are my three two field hockey, basketball, on track.

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Speaker 3: And I also swam in the summer.

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Speaker 4: So that's you know, has a sauceball spot.

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Speaker 2: In my heart, so you knew those.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, but I think, you know, again, the learning

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Speaker 4: curve was significant, and I did learn from fellow commissioners

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Speaker 4: who were really you know, helpful and taught me things.

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Speaker 4: But again, you know, I didn't really know what, you know,

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Speaker 4: we were capable of until twenty sixteen when Jay Wright

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Speaker 4: won you know, the first of what's been five national

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Speaker 4: titles for US in basketball, including Yukon women last year.

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Speaker 4: You know, when he won the first of those in

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Speaker 4: twenty sixteen, you know, with the first men's basketball title,

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Speaker 4: and then he did it again in eighteen, so that

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Speaker 4: was you know, that's kind of an experience like no

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Speaker 4: other when your school wins a national title in a

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Speaker 4: sport like basketball, and every day brings new challenges, especially now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I wanted to ask that because you said the

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Speaker 1: first couple of years were a learning curve, but it's

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Speaker 1: almost like the last couple of years probably have an

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Speaker 1: even greater learning curve with the addition of nil payments,

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Speaker 1: the transfer portal, now the house versus NCAA ruling. How

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Speaker 1: has your job changed because of all of those things,

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Speaker 1: I would.

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Speaker 4: Say, Sarah, the first I'd say five years, six called

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Speaker 4: seven years. Five to seven years, you know, for me

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Speaker 4: was learning the job and then doing the job, and

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Speaker 4: the job didn't change much after you sort of figured

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Speaker 4: it out. You know, it wasn't like it was easy,

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Speaker 4: but you sort of had a sense of the rhythm

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Speaker 4: of the seasons, you know, I say, like, here's what

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Speaker 4: we do in the summer, here's what we do in

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Speaker 4: the fall, here's what we do in the winter, you know,

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Speaker 4: and you sort of understand the cycles.

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Speaker 3: And then COVID hit.

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Speaker 4: You know, COVID hit in twenty twenty and that was

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Speaker 4: a learning curve for everybody because we had no way

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Speaker 4: of understanding how to do that, how to keep your

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Speaker 4: sports organization safe and you know, active during a global pandemic. Okay,

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Speaker 4: so that got us twenty twenty one, we were still

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Speaker 4: coming out of COVID, and then twenty two other things

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Speaker 4: started to hit. You know, we got through the pandemic,

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Speaker 4: but then all of this change that's now characterized college

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Speaker 4: sports and to you know, hit in full force circa

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty two, twenty one, twenty two, and that has

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Speaker 4: led us to this new world where we're dealing with,

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Speaker 4: you know, just a less restrictive environment. What that's mean

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Speaker 4: in terms of athlete movement, what it's meant in terms

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Speaker 4: of the compensation model for players, what it's meant for

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Speaker 4: the NCAA, in terms of dealing with constant litigation threats

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Speaker 4: around things that people thought were core, like eligibility. How

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Speaker 4: many years do I get to play well, son or

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Speaker 4: you know, my son or my daughter. You know, it's

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Speaker 4: four Well not so fast. How come I only get

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Speaker 4: four years? Because this is a pretty good.

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Speaker 3: You know, arrangement.

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Speaker 4: These are the kinds of things that are hitting now

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Speaker 4: in really complex ways, and so it's forcing everybody at

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Speaker 4: all levels, whether it's the national office, whether it's at

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Speaker 4: the conference office level, whether it's at the schools, to

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Speaker 4: really it's just a daily, you know, sort of challenge

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Speaker 4: for all of us to understand the environment, work if

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Speaker 4: we can, to try to navigate it.

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Speaker 3: And then all the while you're.

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Speaker 4: Trying to do the thing you're hired to do, which

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Speaker 4: was run the Connor League, run the conference, and hope

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Speaker 4: that your schools remain nationally relevant and successful in the

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Speaker 4: sports that are most important to you, and in our

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Speaker 4: case that's basketball.

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Speaker 1: You know, you mentioned learning as you go and being

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Speaker 1: able to pivot if things don't work out, maybe as intended.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that there should be limits placed on

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Speaker 1: transfer portal moves. I've heard a lot of folks suggest,

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Speaker 1: and I think it makes sense that the first one's

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Speaker 1: a freeb and if you want a second one, maybe

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Speaker 1: you have to sit out of your face some sort

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Speaker 1: of punishment or penalty, because not only does it affect

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Speaker 1: the schools, that the players are leaving from, but a

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Speaker 1: lot of players end up not finding another landing spot

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Speaker 1: and that's bad for them too.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's interesting, Sarah, that was that was attempted. What

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Speaker 4: the scenario you just outlined. I mean, when we went

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Speaker 4: from started out for your for your listener, that there

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Speaker 4: were five sports where you could transfer but not play

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Speaker 4: right away. I remember that you're in residence. They were football,

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Speaker 4: men's and women's basketball, baseball, and men's ice hockey. And

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Speaker 4: that was the rule for a long time. And then

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Speaker 4: COVID hit, among other things, and then you could get

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Speaker 4: a waiver for the one year sit out, and people

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Speaker 4: started getting waivers. And then the people who didn't get

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Speaker 4: waivers were mad because they didn't get the waiver, didn't

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Speaker 4: understand why he got the waiver.

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Speaker 3: I didn't get the waiver.

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Speaker 4: And there were some litigations attached to all of that,

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Speaker 4: and so the NCAA changed the rule to allow for

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Speaker 4: one time immediate eligibility. Just what you said, with the

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Speaker 4: idea that if you transferred a second or third or

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Speaker 4: fourth time, you had to sit out dot dot unless

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Speaker 4: you got a waiver. Now we're back at that's exactly

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Speaker 4: what happened the waiver bar was supposed to be very high,

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Speaker 4: so you're going to be very hard to get the waiver.

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Speaker 3: But guess what happened.

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Speaker 4: People started getting waivers and people started not getting waivers,

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Speaker 4: and then the people who didn't get waivers said, how

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Speaker 4: come he got a waiver and I didn't get a waiver,

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Speaker 4: And so they basically got rid of the you know,

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Speaker 4: of the of the restriction, and so now it's basically

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Speaker 4: can transfer almost at will. You do need to be

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Speaker 4: academically eligible at your new school, but frankly, you know,

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Speaker 4: if you have the credits and you have some knowledgeable

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Speaker 4: impliance people that requirement can get satisfied.

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Speaker 2: I can fudge it a little. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Do you think they should try that again with a

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Speaker 1: different or more strict waiver or more less empathy and

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Speaker 1: sympathy to those who complain if they don't get it.

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Speaker 4: I think legally it's probably the so called horses out

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Speaker 4: of the barn on this. To be honest, I don't

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Speaker 4: think we can go backwards in terms of the legal

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Speaker 4: risk now of the second time or third time sit out.

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Speaker 4: I will share with you my uh what's the word?

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Speaker 3: It's too bad?

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Speaker 4: My word is too bad because I do think these kids,

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Speaker 4: you know, some of them are following the money. In

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Speaker 4: the case of you know, football and men's basketball, they

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Speaker 4: the academic piece is a far down the list of concerns.

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Speaker 3: I do worry about the.

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Speaker 4: Skills that are skill sets developmentally that are lost when

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Speaker 4: you're hopping around. Hey, it didn't work out here, so

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Speaker 4: I'm out chasing the buck, you know. I mean, I

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Speaker 4: could not have imagined transferring when I was a student athlete,

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Speaker 4: you know it. Just like I had a kind of

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Speaker 4: a tough junior ye Virginia as a student athlete, but

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Speaker 4: I worked harder that summer and I had a really

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Speaker 4: good senior year. And if you know, I can't imagine

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Speaker 4: the sensation of chasing dollars. But again, different time. That's

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Speaker 4: the world we're in, and some of these dollars in

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Speaker 4: the case of the men's sports, are significant, and you

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Speaker 4: have people who are trying to look out for themselves,

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Speaker 4: for their families.

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Speaker 1: I think in the in the women's game too, the

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Speaker 1: basketball money is big enough. Not as much, it's there,

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Speaker 1: it's it's enough people who don't it's enough. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: I think for some of these athletes, I hate to say,

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Speaker 1: this could be the prime earning.

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Speaker 3: Years of their lives.

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Speaker 1: And that's why I have this very sympathetic idea of, yes,

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Speaker 1: your one college experience shouldn't be terrible, and you should

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Speaker 1: be allowed to leave if it is, or if it's

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Speaker 1: not fulfilling what you had anticipated, and also learning to

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Speaker 1: go around to problem instead of through it. Not having

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Speaker 1: a college experience where you create a team and work

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Speaker 1: with that team to get better year after year is

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Speaker 1: a disappointment.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, if the horse is out of the barn,

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Speaker 2: I guess we have to.

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Speaker 1: Hope that there's enough people, you know, advising these these

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Speaker 1: young people to make good decisions.

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Speaker 2: You know, we talked about this with the NIL too.

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Speaker 1: It started out and it was kind of called the

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Speaker 1: wild wild West, and we've sort of stuck with that sense.

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Speaker 1: It's more regulated, but it still feels very unregulated. How

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Speaker 1: do you see where we're at in terms of maybe

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Speaker 1: a timeline for NIL.

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Speaker 2: Do you think it's going to get to a.

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Speaker 1: Place where it's a little bit more in control.

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Speaker 4: Well, that's, you know, certainly a huge question in our space,

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Speaker 4: and I think the answer depends in large part on

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Speaker 4: the effectiveness, the proven effectiveness or not of the college

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Speaker 4: sports Commission, which was the entity that was set up

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Speaker 4: as in the aftermath of the House Settlement, which has

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Speaker 4: now allowing direct revenue sharing by schools to the athletes. Okay,

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Speaker 4: that was new as of past July. Before that, nil

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Speaker 4: could be paid beginning in twenty one, but it could

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Speaker 4: only come from third parties. And now those third party

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Speaker 4: payments can continue, but they're subject to what we're told

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Speaker 4: is higher level of scrutiny. In order for that payment

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Speaker 4: to be approved by the College Sports Commission, it has

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Speaker 4: to be for a quote valid business purpose, meaning the

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Speaker 4: athlete has to do something for the money instead of

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Speaker 4: just dribbling a basketball or throwing a football or a

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Speaker 4: sport thing. It's got to be for other reasons number

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Speaker 4: one and number two, it has to be within a

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Speaker 4: so called reasonable range of compensation two part tests. And

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Speaker 4: so that's now we're not making the judgments.

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Speaker 1: We know.

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Speaker 4: Our schools have to file, our athletes have to file

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Speaker 4: the deals. They have to go through this clearinghouse, and

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Speaker 4: then it's up to the CSSE to determine whether they

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Speaker 4: are approved or not. And if they are, okay, the

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Speaker 4: kid gets the money. And if they're not, it means

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Speaker 4: that the deal has been invalidated and can't take place,

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Speaker 4: And so the answer to your question is.

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Speaker 3: We'll see. Yeah, this system has.

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Speaker 4: Been in a place since last July, and you know,

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Speaker 4: there's still a lot we don't know.

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Speaker 1: I know I've mentioned this on previous shows, but the

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Speaker 1: first place my brain goes is the Amy Schumer sketch,

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Speaker 1: which is like twelve angry men, but instead it's a

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Speaker 1: room full of people deciding if she's hot enough to

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Speaker 1: have her own television show. And that's what I imagine this

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Speaker 1: commission is. It's like, well, Livy Done's good at gymnastics,

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Speaker 1: but she's so hot that she is worth all that money.

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Speaker 1: And this guy isn't even a name anyone knows in football,

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Speaker 1: but it's football at this school, so they are worth

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Speaker 1: this much.

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Speaker 2: It's just like apples and oranges. Apples and oranges, and.

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Speaker 1: It's so dependent on the subjectivity of the people making decisions.

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Speaker 2: So maybe, and probably in the.

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Speaker 1: Case of women's sports, have very little understanding of the

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Speaker 1: women's sports ecosystem, and that really worries me when it

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Speaker 1: comes to that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's interesting, Sarah what we're told in terms of

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Speaker 4: the judgments that are being made about these You know,

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Speaker 4: valid business purpose. To your point, we are told that.

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Speaker 3: There are a few more.

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Speaker 4: There is a little bit of objectivity to it because

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Speaker 4: they're looking at Number one, how visible.

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Speaker 3: Is this athlete?

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Speaker 4: So, for example, an athlete who's on television a lot

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Speaker 4: would presumably have a higher nil value than an athlete

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Speaker 4: who's quote invisible and not on television or some other

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Speaker 4: major platform. Number two, if it's a starter or a

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Speaker 4: star or an Olympian, they're presumably of greater value than

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Speaker 4: a benchwarmer. So that's number number two. And number three

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Speaker 4: what we're told is of an athlete has a very

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Speaker 4: strong social media following where they're bringing in, you know,

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Speaker 4: a million Instagram followers or TikTok or whatever. There's a

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Speaker 4: value to that that a third party could you know,

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Speaker 4: could pay for.

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Speaker 3: And so if.

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Speaker 4: Those boxes are mixed, and it's men or women, I mean,

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Speaker 4: you've got low you know, you've got women's sports who

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Speaker 4: check boxes, You've got men's sports who don't. You've got

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Speaker 4: Olympic sports who check boxes. Maybe there's some basketball players

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Speaker 4: that don't have much value. So I do think it depends,

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Speaker 4: but you know, you're right, I think at some point,

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Speaker 4: you know, there may be some questions about, Okay, how

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Speaker 4: do you compare the two.

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Speaker 1: And even that objectivity falls to the same problem that

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Speaker 1: we see women's sports across the entire history of their existence,

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Speaker 1: which is, if you offer up more television opportunities for men,

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Speaker 1: then they're more visible, which means that then they get

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Speaker 1: paid more because their visibility is tied to their NIL,

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Speaker 1: so that you're setting up women with less of an

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Speaker 1: opportunit unity both to be seen and to be paid

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Speaker 1: for being seen, and on and on it goes, which.

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Speaker 2: Just is complicated.

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Speaker 1: And I want to ask you how you think NIL

439
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,280
Speaker 1: has positively and negatively affected women's college athletes, because at

440
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,120
Speaker 1: the beginning, the argument against it was it would negatively

441
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,280
Speaker 1: impact women. Now we knew the people making that argument

442
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,600
Speaker 1: weren't genuinely interested in women's college athletes benefiting. They were

443
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:22,520
Speaker 1: just trying to use that as a cudgel for their argument.

444
00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:24,679
Speaker 1: We argued, those of us in the know that some

445
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:26,639
Speaker 1: of these women were at their peak earning power and

446
00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,760
Speaker 1: would benefit greatly from NIL during their college years. But

447
00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,040
Speaker 1: now there's a bit of a shift with House versus

448
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,560
Speaker 1: NCAA and some of the other issues that it does

449
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,040
Speaker 1: feel like there might be some negative outcomes for women

450
00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:39,959
Speaker 1: athletes in terms of roster spots and in terms of

451
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,320
Speaker 1: the way the funding is actually being distributed around different

452
00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:44,960
Speaker 1: departments and teams.

453
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:45,280
Speaker 2: At the schools.

454
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,680
Speaker 4: Well, I would say, in my opinion, NIL has been

455
00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:50,879
Speaker 4: a huge plus for women's athletes, and in fact, in

456
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,560
Speaker 4: our league, the biggest winners have been women's basketball players.

457
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,640
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, pagebackers. I'll use Hero as an example.

458
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,879
Speaker 4: It came to Ukon. She was an early adopter on

459
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,040
Speaker 4: social media. She came into Yukon I think with a

460
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,840
Speaker 4: half a million Instagram followers, and then by the time

461
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,000
Speaker 4: she left she had whatever tripled that. And so she

462
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:15,320
Speaker 4: combination of her appeal, her savviness around social media, and

463
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,840
Speaker 4: then the points I just mentioned being a star on

464
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,879
Speaker 4: a highly visible program with a lot of TV and

465
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,040
Speaker 4: a big following got her millions of dollars as far

466
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,360
Speaker 4: as I know. So you know many examples of that.

467
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,359
Speaker 4: Caitlin Clark another example of somebody who made out for

468
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,000
Speaker 4: all the same reasons, and we're seeing it to your

469
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,399
Speaker 4: point in gymnastics, and you know many of the soccer

470
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,480
Speaker 4: et cetera. I do think we're so this is NIL

471
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:44,720
Speaker 4: to me, it's a function of the marketplace. What does

472
00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:45,800
Speaker 4: the market want to pay for?

473
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:46,240
Speaker 1: True?

474
00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:48,960
Speaker 3: Nil? Okay, same in pro sports.

475
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:51,200
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, some men's athletes are going to

476
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:52,200
Speaker 4: get more than women's athlete.

477
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,760
Speaker 3: That's the marketplace deciding where they put the value. Okay,

478
00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:55,160
Speaker 3: that's just.

479
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:56,680
Speaker 2: With Title nine.

480
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,800
Speaker 4: Then if it's a college, well, Title nine would not

481
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:02,360
Speaker 4: apply to the third party payments because the schools aren't

482
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,959
Speaker 4: making the payments where I do believe, well, I do

483
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,119
Speaker 4: believe back to you know, to sort of distinguish this

484
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 4: to you, you know, to your recognition of the house,

485
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 4: you know, pieces of this. Schools can now pay money

486
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:17,080
Speaker 4: directly in addition to these third party payments. Schools first

487
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 4: year it's up to twenty million a year can pay

488
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 4: directly to the athletes. And we have learned that most

489
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 4: of the football schools are paying most of those dollars

490
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,000
Speaker 4: to their football players. And so there I do believe

491
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,480
Speaker 4: there are going to be looming questions about whether Title

492
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 4: nine applies to the direct payments.

493
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:36,760
Speaker 3: The football schools.

494
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:38,639
Speaker 4: Will use the argument that the reason they're paying the

495
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:40,879
Speaker 4: football players the most is because that's where the money

496
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 4: is coming from, which is a fact, by the way,

497
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:45,439
Speaker 4: that's where most of the dollars are coming from in

498
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,480
Speaker 4: college spoorts far and away, I would add, So the

499
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,719
Speaker 4: argument would be, well, the football players are bringing it in,

500
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 4: so they deserve, you know, they deserve to get it

501
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,720
Speaker 4: back in turn. You know, basketball team a little, you know,

502
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,920
Speaker 4: much less so the other teams, maybe a baseball team

503
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:00,639
Speaker 4: here and there is pretty good. And then we're do

504
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 4: women's sports fit in? And so I do think, I'm

505
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,400
Speaker 4: you know, we have not seen the challenge that may

506
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,880
Speaker 4: be coming here on how tight, how if or how

507
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,680
Speaker 4: Title nine applies to the direct payments, But I think

508
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,680
Speaker 4: that's going to be likely, if not certain, it come

509
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 4: and I think we'll all learn more when we see

510
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,480
Speaker 4: how that challenge is, you know, is managed.

511
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 1: It brings me to my next question, actually, because you

512
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,440
Speaker 1: mentioned Yukon and the success they had. The title win

513
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 1: last year in women's basketball was great for morale, great

514
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:30,679
Speaker 1: for pub but also for the first time on the

515
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 1: women's side, financially benefited the conference.

516
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 2: Right, you get win units awarded to.

517
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 1: The conference because of Yukon's national title, because women were

518
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,159
Speaker 1: prohibited from getting that financial payout for their conference and

519
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 1: prohibited from any number of other opportunities for financial gain

520
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 1: as a result of antiquated ideas about their value. For

521
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,439
Speaker 1: years and years, they have not been seen as a

522
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,120
Speaker 1: potential money maker and invested in in order to see

523
00:23:58,119 --> 00:23:59,399
Speaker 1: if they can make you money.

524
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,640
Speaker 2: Not saying that would make the money college football does.

525
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 1: But what happens is we prevent women's sports from making money,

526
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 1: then we say, look at men, they make money, let's.

527
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 2: Put more money over there.

528
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, you haven't even invested enough to find out if

529
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 1: you could be making money on the women's.

530
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,159
Speaker 2: Side if you were willing to put it in.

531
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 1: So now we have win units, and I wonder what

532
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 1: it means to actually have money going into the conference

533
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 1: because this team won, and whether it will change school's

534
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 1: decision to spend and invest in their women's programs knowing

535
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 1: that they do have an opportunity to make money off

536
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:29,440
Speaker 1: their success.

537
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 4: Now, yeah, I think it's obviously a tremendous positive that

538
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 4: this is now happening. One of the outcomes of the

539
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 4: so called Kaplan report. You may remember the report that

540
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 4: came out of the brew haha, justifiably around the NCAA

541
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 4: tournament in twenty one women's tournament basketball tournament.

542
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 3: So now we have it.

543
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,159
Speaker 4: I do think It's not a ton of money, to

544
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 4: be honest, because it's attributable to the dollars that are

545
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 4: coming in from the women's basketball TV rights on ESPN,

546
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 4: which are much lower than the money coming in from

547
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 4: the TV dollars from the CBS turnery.

548
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 1: Once again, a negotiated outcome based on people's belief systems

549
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 1: and value the correlation.

550
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 4: I will note by the way, I note both of

551
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 4: those TV agreements are coming up at the same time,

552
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 4: and so that that's a really important negotiation to track

553
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 4: on what that means.

554
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 1: And whether they keep bundling women's college back exactly with

555
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: everything else instead of.

556
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 4: Allowing it to fly free you and see all sorts

557
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 4: of all sorts of interesting combinations there. Would they sell

558
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 4: the women separately? Do they bundle it with the Olympic

559
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 4: sports like they did this past time. Do they bundle

560
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 4: it with the men to create a monster television package.

561
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 3: You know, you know, it's too.

562
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,400
Speaker 4: Early to say, but there is some correlation there between

563
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 4: the revenue and the payout, is all I'm saying. What

564
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,360
Speaker 4: I am concerned. I will say now that the athletes

565
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 4: can be compensated. To be honest, I am concerned because

566
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 4: I do think that as schools in their quest to

567
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,439
Speaker 4: continue to be successful in football, to continue to be

568
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 4: successful in men's basketball, now that they have player acquisition

569
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:15,160
Speaker 4: costs on top of what they're otherwise spending for operations, coaches, facilities.

570
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 3: Et cetera.

571
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 4: I do worry, Sarah, that is yet even more money

572
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 4: is thrown back into football and men's basketball. I do

573
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,679
Speaker 4: worry about where the quote discretionary investment money is going

574
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 4: to come from to support any other sport, whether it's

575
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 4: a women's sport, a men's sport, whatever.

576
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,239
Speaker 1: Even if they have the carrot of win units. Now

577
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:34,400
Speaker 1: on the women's side.

578
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 4: There's a carrot, but that's a finite care. It's a

579
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 4: small carrot, and it's not unlimited resources here.

580
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:42,120
Speaker 3: So schools are still going to.

581
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 4: Have to make hard decisions about okay, like what are

582
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,200
Speaker 4: my priorities here? And I do you know in a

583
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 4: in a in a conference at where football is king

584
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 4: and there's a lot of those, a lot of that,

585
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 4: you know, money that's growing is going back into football,

586
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 4: and it just means that other things may have to give.

587
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,679
Speaker 4: And that's where I think, you know, it remains to

588
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 4: be seen how any sport other than football events basketball

589
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 4: is going to fare with those restrictions.

590
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 1: Well, we had legal experts on to talk about House

591
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 1: versus nc Doable, and the thing that stood out to

592
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 1: me essentially was how much there is fear of litigation

593
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,400
Speaker 1: moving forward that will inspire action, whether that's cutting roster

594
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 1: spots in favor of scholarship spots and things like that.

595
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:22,199
Speaker 1: And so it feels like policy, proactive policy to prevent

596
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: against the inevitable outcomes of decision making that's done in

597
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,439
Speaker 1: fear of litigation is going to be so important to

598
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 1: protect women's sports from ultimately expectedly becoming the place that

599
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 1: people cut corners or cut programs or do whatever in

600
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 1: order to keep making the money, which is something that's

601
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: yet to be seen.

602
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 2: We have to take a break more with val Ackerman

603
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 2: right after this.

604
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 1: You know, when you were at the media day for

605
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,680
Speaker 1: Big East this year, you talked about the groundwork laid

606
00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: by many, many folks for years.

607
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:01,640
Speaker 2: To get it's something like when units on the women's side,

608
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:03,360
Speaker 2: But you also said there's lots of room to grow.

609
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 2: So I'm wondering what's at the top of your list.

610
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 3: Well, I think you know. For me, what I'm seeing,

611
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:10,360
Speaker 3: Sarah is.

612
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 4: Growing rightly, deservedly, long overdue growth for women's sports at

613
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 4: the highest levels. So I'm seeing, you know, you're looking

614
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,360
Speaker 4: at the elite levels of women's sports. You know, look

615
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 4: at what we're going to be up against with the

616
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 4: Olympics coming up in a.

617
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 3: Couple of weeks.

618
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 4: The highest levels of you know, college sports, so whether

619
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 4: it's the highest levels of basketball, soccer. You see at

620
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,919
Speaker 4: the ratings, you see, you know, volleyball is the sport

621
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 4: on the move, women's ice hockey is showing some growth,

622
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 4: et cetera, et cetera, college college softball, right, track and

623
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 4: field gymnastics you mentioned earlier.

624
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 3: You know, I think the.

625
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 4: Interest is there in part because it's just great entertainment.

626
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 4: It's sport at its best, and you see it at

627
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 4: the pro level. Look at what's happened to the w

628
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 4: n b A. You know over the last four or

629
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 4: five years, the valuations popping, they are for expansion teams

630
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 4: in those in soccer and basketball. What's happening in women's

631
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 4: pro ice hockey? After a long, long, tortured runway, we

632
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 4: finally say women's pro ice women's volleyball, there's what two

633
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 4: or three leagues, you know, figuring it trying to figure

634
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 4: it out where we're not seeing that interest is really

635
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 4: pushed down. If you get into the sort of middle

636
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 4: levels of say college sports, or the lower levels of

637
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 4: D one or D two or D three, we're still

638
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 4: talking about only you know, a couple of hundred fans

639
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 4: a game. We're not talking about tremendous commercial interest, to

640
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 4: be honest with you. And so you know, I wonder

641
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 4: if we're how we get better there?

642
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, because you.

643
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 4: Know, again it's pretty good at the top. I mean,

644
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 4: Yukon is, you know, the standard bear in our league

645
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 4: in women's basketball. But when you sort of get past

646
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 4: that and you look at crowd sizes and television ratings

647
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 4: and interests from our commercial partners, it sort of starts

648
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 4: to wane. And so it's not like everybody can get this.

649
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, is that a focus of yours in the Big East?

650
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 1: Because you know, you do have this incredible top tier

651
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: talent at Yukon, But the SEC has nine teams in

652
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 1: the top twenty five, The Big Ten has eight teams

653
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 1: in the top twenty five. How do you get some

654
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 1: of those other programs to catch up to you? Kind

655
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 1: of is that a priority for the Big East? Understanding

656
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 1: that you are the basketball conference.

657
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I you know, I've tried.

658
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 4: I've tried very hard over the years, and frankly, my

659
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 4: observation is, how to put it this way, the schools

660
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 4: that have football dollars are at an advantage because those

661
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 4: those SEC football dollars go a heck of a long

662
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 4: way to support women's basketball in the SEC, and same

663
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 4: in the Big Ten.

664
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 3: It's just a fact.

665
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 4: It's blessing and occurrent we have basketball dollars in our

666
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 4: league which are above market i'd say for basketball, but

667
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 4: you know, it's it's a fraction of what the football

668
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 4: leagues are getting for their football properties. And so again,

669
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 4: I just you know, if you look at the top

670
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 4: twenty five standings and women's basketball top fifty standings, they're

671
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 4: dominated by the football schools. Yeah, and it's so rare

672
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 4: breakthrough by you know, Bio Yukon or a Gonzaga we had.

673
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 4: Creighton was a top twenty five team for US for

674
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 4: a couple of years. All their seniors they had several

675
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 4: of gone, they're rebuilding. It's just really hard because, especially

676
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 4: in a revshare environment, it was one thing you could

677
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 4: try to keep up with your coaches and your facilities

678
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 4: and your operations and DA Charter and all that, and

679
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 4: now that you're on top of all of that, now

680
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 4: your quote have to pay the players. That just requires

681
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 4: more money. And the football schools have that, frankly, you

682
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 4: know at a level other schools don't have. And so

683
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 4: that's where I think, you know, you're maybe going to

684
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 4: seek continuing differentiation.

685
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, last question for you.

686
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: I know we're talking to a couple of days ahead

687
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 1: of Congresswoman Laurie Trahan's twenty twenty six Congressional College Athletics Summit.

688
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: It's coming up on Thursday at the Library of Congress.

689
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 1: You're going to be on a panel speaking about working

690
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 1: towards an enduring governance model.

691
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 2: So I'm wondering what the most.

692
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: Pressing issues you think are that you'll be talking about

693
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: at that when it comes to leading NC double athletes.

694
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 2: In the right in the right direction.

695
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 4: Well to you know, thanks, Harry, You're now you'll force

696
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 4: me to think about my lines for that thing.

697
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 3: So I appreciate it.

698
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, I think you know, I'm really glad

699
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 4: to be part of it. I'm glad Congresswoman Trey Hann,

700
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 4: who by the way, was a student athlete herself in

701
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 4: college went to Georgetown and played volleyball. There is focused

702
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 4: on this. I am delighted to talk about governance. I

703
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 4: think people don't maybe won't believe this, you're but I believe,

704
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 4: But I do. I think the NCAA governance, frankly, has

705
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 4: has gotten it right in a lot of ways in

706
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 4: sports where the revenue doesn't matter. I mean, the way

707
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 4: we do things, the way committees are set up, how

708
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 4: championship fields are selected, how certain things are managed is

709
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 4: actually you know, works pretty well. Where you know things

710
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 4: have sort of gotten off the rails is in the

711
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 4: sports where revenue is you know, growing, uh, And the

712
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 4: question is what's the right relationship between the athletes and

713
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 4: the money and the schools in those sports. And that's

714
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,479
Speaker 4: not every sport, in fact, it's only a few. And

715
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 4: so I do think that you know, these conversations about

716
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 4: how do you manage that, what's the right way to

717
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 4: run a basketball association?

718
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 3: Or where does football fit in?

719
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 4: Or how does this affect track and field and what's

720
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,719
Speaker 4: it mean for wrestling is really important and I you know,

721
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 4: I hope to share some thoughts about that. I think

722
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 4: the punchline at the end of the day for me

723
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 4: is I'm really not convinced anymore as a lawyer that

724
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 4: certain things about the NCAA and the way we're operating

725
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,719
Speaker 4: can be fixed without Congress stepping in and coming up

726
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 4: with some sort of you know, legislative reform that would

727
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 4: reconcile the labor laws, the anti trust laws, Title nine

728
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 4: to our earlier point, the tax laws. All of these

729
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 4: pieces of you know, federal legislation are colliding right now

730
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 4: in college sports and leading to a bunch of litigations

731
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 4: that are creating you know, confusion, a lack of order,

732
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 4: a lack of certainty, and costing a lot.

733
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 3: Of money to be honest.

734
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 4: And so you know, I and there have been attempts,

735
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 4: you know, through Congress to try to sort that out.

736
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 4: Right now, those efforts are on hold, but I do hope,

737
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 4: you know that maybe with Congresswoman tray hands help and

738
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 4: the help of others, we can sort of get to

739
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 4: a position where there can be some you know, some

740
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:18,919
Speaker 4: way to figure this out in a way that makes

741
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 4: sense for everybody, the athletes, the schools, you know, and

742
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 4: the fans. Because college sports is clearly too big to fail.

743
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm told we still do have a Congress. I've

744
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 1: yet to see evidence lately, but I'm told it exists.

745
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 2: I look forward to seeing what they might do.

746
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 1: I know we last when we had the Congresswoman on

747
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 1: the show, we talked about the score Act primarily and

748
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 1: her work to fight against it and continue protecting Title

749
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: nine and women athletes. Last we heard the Republicans pull

750
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 1: the bill from consideration because of Thankfully Aloud and United

751
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 1: Front against it. I'm sure we'll hear on Thursday any

752
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 1: updates and hopefully it will not be reintroduced as it was,

753
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 1: but rather find a way to balance the bill that

754
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 1: the Congresswoman is supporting and less of what we saw

755
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 1: that seemed very damaging in.

756
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 2: The Score Act slices.

757
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 1: By the way, you can attend that event live in

758
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 1: DC on Thursday or watch it on YouTube, so we'll

759
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 1: put more info in the show notes about that. Look

760
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: forward to hearing you. Always love talking to you. Thank

761
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:14,800
Speaker 1: you so much for the time, Bell.

762
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:17,320
Speaker 4: As always, Sarah, look forward to seeing you on the trails.

763
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 4: Thanks for everything you're doing.

764
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: Thanks again, Deval for hanging out with us. We got

765
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 1: to take another break when we come back. An enjoyable

766
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:34,839
Speaker 1: middle finger to fascism welcome.

767
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 2: Back, Slices.

768
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: We always love that you're listening, but we want you

769
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 1: to get in the game every day too, So here's

770
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 1: our good game play of the day.

771
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 2: DC Slices.

772
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,800
Speaker 1: Go ahead and at ten Congresswoman Laurie Trahan's twenty twenty

773
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 1: six Congressional College Athletics Summit. It's on Thursday at the

774
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: Library of Congress from twelve to three thirty pm Eastern,

775
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 1: and if you're not around, you can live stream it

776
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: on YouTube. We'll put a link to the RSVP with

777
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,760
Speaker 1: some more information about it in the show notes. Also,

778
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: for my fellow heated rivalry fans, I just want to

779
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 1: tell you that the fine folks over at that Gist

780
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 1: recently compiled a bunch of interviews that the two stars,

781
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 1: Hudson Williams and Connor Story have been doing lately on

782
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 1: a press tour including BuzzFeed and teen Vogue stops that

783
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 1: just absolutely can't be missed.

784
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 2: We'll link to both of them in the show notes,

785
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:17,839
Speaker 2: but be.

786
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: Fore warned they are absolutely not safe for work, unless

787
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,839
Speaker 1: I guess your work involves the phrases clappable, material and

788
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: prone and boned. We always love to hear from you

789
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 1: hit us up on email, good game at Wondermedia neetwork

790
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 1: dot com, or leave us a voicemail at eight seven

791
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 1: two two o four fifty seventy and don't forget to subscribe,

792
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:38,280
Speaker 1: rate and review.

793
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 2: It's so easy.

794
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 1: Watch our new Favorite Uncle, rating five out of five

795
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: stars for telling it like it is. Review shouts to

796
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: Rough and Tumble Pub, a women's sports bar in Seattle,

797
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 1: for using their social to share a TikTok from at

798
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,399
Speaker 1: Accepting Uncle Murphy in which a man ourn't Favorite New

799
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: Uncle is holding a tiny little baby while he's watching

800
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: Unrivaled Basket. He talks about why he shares so much

801
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 1: unrivaled content, saying, in part quote, I can't just be

802
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,240
Speaker 1: angry and rage against this moment.

803
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 2: I have to find a way to fight with light

804
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:09,839
Speaker 2: and with love.

805
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: If they want women to be barefoot and pregnant, if

806
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: they want it to be illegal to be LGBTQ, I

807
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: can't think of a better thing to celebrate and shove

808
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: in their face that a sport and a business where

809
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 1: women women of color and queer women of color, our

810
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 1: world class athletes are becoming millionaires, our business owners and entrepreneurs,

811
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: where these women are role models and heroes where these

812
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 1: women have unionized and are fighting for fair pay in

813
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 1: their league and they're not getting it, so they built

814
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 1: their own lead to get paid what they deserve.

815
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 2: End quote.

816
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,240
Speaker 1: Yes, Uncle, We'll link to the video in our show notes.

817
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 1: Now it's your turn, rate and review. Thanks for listening.

818
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 1: See you tomorrow. Good game, Val, Good game, our new

819
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: favorite uncle you trying to understand the increasingly complicated college

820
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: sports landscape. Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart

821
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 1: women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blues Sports and Entertainment.

822
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,319
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823
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 2: Wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network,

824
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 2: our producers are alex.

825
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 1: Azzie Grace Lynch, Taylor Williamson, and Lucy Jones. Our executive

826
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rutterer.

827
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,360
Speaker 1: Our editors are Emily Rutterer, Britney Martinez and Gianna Palmer.

828
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,280
Speaker 1: Production assistants from Avery Loftus and I'm Your Host Sarah

829
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: Spain