WEBVTT - Challenges of Creating Content During the Pandemic

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer from Bloomberg Radio. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>we are definitely living in a world where we are

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<v Speaker 1>talking a lot more about our well being, physical well being,

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<v Speaker 1>our mental well being, and for many, the disruption of

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<v Speaker 1>so called normal lives has created a new batch of

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<v Speaker 1>stresses and really put our mental health to the test.

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<v Speaker 1>With that in mind, there's a new HBO documentary that

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<v Speaker 1>looks at the minds of a specific group that exists

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<v Speaker 1>in our population. Basically asks what makes killers kill? Yep,

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<v Speaker 1>you heard that right. Let's bring in Oscar winning filmmaker

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<v Speaker 1>Alex Gibney. He's got a new documentary at It's called

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<v Speaker 1>Crazy Not Insane. Alex, of course the filmmaker behind films

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<v Speaker 1>familiar to our audience, including Enron, The Smartest Guys in

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<v Speaker 1>the Room. He's done documentaries on Wiki Leaks, Elliot Spitzer.

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<v Speaker 1>He is founder of Jigsaw Pictures, and Alex joins us

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<v Speaker 1>on the Fund from New Jersey. Alex, Welcome to Bloomberg Radio.

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<v Speaker 1>Great to have you here. Great to me there, Carol,

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<v Speaker 1>So I don't know if it's there. Yeah, that's kind

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<v Speaker 1>of how it works today. Totally get you. How are

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<v Speaker 1>you first of all I'm fine. I'm good. Yeah, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>I'm I'm fine. All good. Thank you for asking. Well.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm doing well too, and glad to hear that on

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<v Speaker 1>your end. Um, I want to ask you before we

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<v Speaker 1>kind of get into crazy not insane. I mean, I

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<v Speaker 1>do wonder though, how your world has been impacted by

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<v Speaker 1>the pandemic. We've talked to a lot of content creators,

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<v Speaker 1>film heads of film studios that were shut down because

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<v Speaker 1>of the virus. You know, they're now finding their way

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<v Speaker 1>back under some new protocols, uh and kind of filming

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<v Speaker 1>with zones and so on and so forth. But I'm

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<v Speaker 1>curious for a documentary filmmaker, you know, how, how is

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<v Speaker 1>your world impacted or were you able to do a

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<v Speaker 1>lot kind of business as usual? To some extent, it

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't business as usual, but we were able to do

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<v Speaker 1>a lot. I mean, we never really stopped shooting um

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<v Speaker 1>and uh, and we found ways of editing remotely, and

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<v Speaker 1>we even pioneered I mean, you know, myself and two

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<v Speaker 1>colleagues just finished the film about the you know, federal

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<v Speaker 1>response to covidull until really under control, and we pioneered

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<v Speaker 1>a new kind of camera called the COVID cam which

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<v Speaker 1>enabled people to actually get a camera on their doorstep

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<v Speaker 1>and we can remotely monitor it via the via the web,

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<v Speaker 1>and no human beings contact with each other. Yeah, that's

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<v Speaker 1>pretty wild. Is that that's not out yet? Is it?

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<v Speaker 1>It is? It came up, It came up. It was

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<v Speaker 1>on Hulu. Um, it still is on Hulu. Came up,

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<v Speaker 1>but it it came out just before the election were

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<v Speaker 1>on October fifteen. Alright, Sorry, I've been a little distracted

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<v Speaker 1>because I going on my apologies, So tell me about

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<v Speaker 1>your documentary Crazy not Insane. To be fair, I've seen

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<v Speaker 1>a trailer, so, um, I've seen a little clip it

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<v Speaker 1>of it, a clip of it. You know, you follow

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<v Speaker 1>the work of a notable psychiatrist who has assessed a

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<v Speaker 1>number of high profile killers like Ted Bundy, Mark David Chapman.

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<v Speaker 1>Tell us a little bit about her and how you

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<v Speaker 1>came to kind of do this documentary. Her name is

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<v Speaker 1>Dorothy Ought now Lewis, and I came to her as

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<v Speaker 1>part of research for a scripted project I'm doing with

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<v Speaker 1>Laura dern Uh and Laura came to me with a

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<v Speaker 1>notion of of wanting to do something about psychiatrists whose

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<v Speaker 1>job it is to examine UH inmates on death row

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<v Speaker 1>and determine whether they are sane enough to be executed

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<v Speaker 1>um and which is kind of a crazy idea uh

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<v Speaker 1>in and of itself. And so in doing research for that,

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<v Speaker 1>I I was looking for prototypes for this character and

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<v Speaker 1>found Dorothy. And Dorothy had written a book about her experiences.

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<v Speaker 1>But Um. She was a psychiatrist who, after studying juveniles

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<v Speaker 1>for many, many years, stumbled into the world of testifying

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<v Speaker 1>on behalf of usually defense attorneys, either in trials or

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<v Speaker 1>for death penalty appeals and UH and pioneering a new

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<v Speaker 1>kind of research into the minds of killers UH and

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<v Speaker 1>trying to determine how and why, well not so much,

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<v Speaker 1>how more why they kill UM and and so it

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<v Speaker 1>became a kind of fascinating tour through UM through Dorothy's work,

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<v Speaker 1>who was a kind of detective of the mind. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't want to give it all away because I

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<v Speaker 1>want people to go watch it, But I mean, what

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<v Speaker 1>was she like? I mean, this is this is kind

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<v Speaker 1>of interesting. I mean, the subject matter is just fascinating,

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<v Speaker 1>but I'm curious what she was like and and UM

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<v Speaker 1>in terms of the process of her going about this.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, this is pretty growesome stuff. It is grewesome stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>And and when you meet her, I mean, Dorothy is

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<v Speaker 1>a sort of a bubbly lady. She's now over eighty,

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<v Speaker 1>but she's still full of energy and vitality as a

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<v Speaker 1>sort of mischievous glint in her eye. What was that

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<v Speaker 1>There's a line of a novel. He was born with

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<v Speaker 1>a gift for laughter in a sense that the world

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<v Speaker 1>was mad. That's Dorothy Lewis. And uh and and so

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<v Speaker 1>she has fun. She has these hairless but she's at

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<v Speaker 1>her desk, which is a table in her living room.

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<v Speaker 1>She's surrounded by an ocean of papers. Um. And she's

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<v Speaker 1>just a you know, one of the most curious people

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<v Speaker 1>I've ever met. But she's curious in this peculiar area

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<v Speaker 1>of trying to understand human violence. And that led her

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<v Speaker 1>certainly down some very dark paths, and indeed led her

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<v Speaker 1>into some chambers of people like Ted Bundy, um you

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<v Speaker 1>know alone, um, serial killers between her and the door,

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<v Speaker 1>with only her persuasive powers as a psychiatrist to protect her. Right.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I do wonder, Alex and I want to

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<v Speaker 1>go back to you mentioned your documentary on COVID Totally

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<v Speaker 1>under Control, and I was just talking with um one

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<v Speaker 1>of our news anchors, d Prisoner, and you know, we're

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<v Speaker 1>talking about it's kind of staggering in the face of

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<v Speaker 1>all the evidence, of scientific medical evidence that's out there

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<v Speaker 1>about the virus. You know, I'm curious, in doing this

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<v Speaker 1>documentary why you think that people are having such a

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<v Speaker 1>hard time believing in the virus and even leading up

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<v Speaker 1>to the election, and even after Donald Trump had the virus,

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<v Speaker 1>he had a lot of supporters still and thinking he

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<v Speaker 1>was doing a good job at it. Well, there are

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<v Speaker 1>two separate things. I mean, one is he was he

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<v Speaker 1>was trying very hard to convince his followers and you'd

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<v Speaker 1>almost have to call him followers that the virus wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>really that real or that dangerous, even though we now

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<v Speaker 1>know he knew it was. UM. But the doing a

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<v Speaker 1>good job, that's the part I have a harder time understanding.

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<v Speaker 1>If anybody watches Totally under Control, you will see forensically

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<v Speaker 1>exactly how bad a job he did. You couldn't between

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<v Speaker 1>him and Jared Kushner. You couldn't imagine anybody doing the

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<v Speaker 1>worst job if they had actually tried. UM. So that's

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<v Speaker 1>just a matter of competence. I mean utterly incompetent. And

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<v Speaker 1>as a result, you know, to what are we at?

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<v Speaker 1>Are in thirty five thousand dead now? Um? And we compare,

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<v Speaker 1>We compare the United States with South Korea, which discovered

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<v Speaker 1>their first COVID positive patient on the same day January.

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<v Speaker 1>But South Korea no very quickly to contain the virus,

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<v Speaker 1>never had to shut down its economy. And it's a

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<v Speaker 1>it's a country of fifty one million people. To date,

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<v Speaker 1>less than five people have died. So you know, you

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<v Speaker 1>can it can be done. You just have to be

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<v Speaker 1>disciplined about it. You have to have a government that

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<v Speaker 1>believes in science. You have to have a government that

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<v Speaker 1>believes in taking steps to protect its people and to

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<v Speaker 1>engage all its citizens, uh, in trying to fight the

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<v Speaker 1>virus instead of trying to fight each other. You know, Alex,

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<v Speaker 1>one thing I do wonder and I mentioned kind of

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<v Speaker 1>coming in. You know, your latest documentary crazy not insane,

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<v Speaker 1>and you're taking a look at serial killers. But you've

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<v Speaker 1>done you know, documentaries on en Ron, You've done them

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<v Speaker 1>on Wiki leagues, You've done them on the history of

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<v Speaker 1>the rock group the Eagles. Uh, You've done them on

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of different subjects. How do you decide what

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<v Speaker 1>to work on? Is it just something you come across?

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<v Speaker 1>Is it kind of random, like when Laura Dern, who

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<v Speaker 1>we've talked to on our are two and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>fascinating of these conversations and you can go a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of different places. Is it just you kind of run

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<v Speaker 1>into something accidentally or I don't know what's your approach.

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<v Speaker 1>It's all the difference all the time. I mean, what

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<v Speaker 1>do they say, luck is where opportunity means a prepared mind.

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<v Speaker 1>So sometimes I just get lucky, um, but sometimes I

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<v Speaker 1>go seeking something UM. In this case, you know, I

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't intending necessarily to make a documentary, but I just

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<v Speaker 1>became so interested in Dr Lewis and also Dr also Dorothy's.

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<v Speaker 1>She had these videotapes of her examinations of a number

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<v Speaker 1>of serial killers, uh, and those were pretty compelling, particularly

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<v Speaker 1>because a number of them have UM, dissociative identity disorder

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<v Speaker 1>what we used to call multiple personality disorder, and you

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<v Speaker 1>can see people switch from personality and personality in the

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<v Speaker 1>middle of the examination. So that was pretty interesting stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>And and and so I realized, whow that's that could

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<v Speaker 1>be a film there? And usually I have a number

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<v Speaker 1>of films on the boil at any particular time, right,

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<v Speaker 1>and we'll advance them a little bit to see if

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<v Speaker 1>there's more to be done, and and if it seems

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<v Speaker 1>like there is, then we'll push forward. I would imagine

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of these documentaries like there are so many

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<v Speaker 1>rabbit holes. Like this happens to me all the time.

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<v Speaker 1>Somebody says something all of a sudden, I'm going down

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<v Speaker 1>a rabbit hole, and I'm lost for a long time.

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<v Speaker 1>But I would just think even coming across those films,

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<v Speaker 1>right and watching her do your examinations, you could just

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<v Speaker 1>kind of probably watch them for hours to some extent,

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<v Speaker 1>because it's kind of fascinating and just you know, kind

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<v Speaker 1>of understanding how she works and how she's trying to

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<v Speaker 1>understand this, you know, group of people and what the

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<v Speaker 1>commonalities are well, right, And what she ultimately ends up

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<v Speaker 1>understanding is that a deep dive into serial killers or

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<v Speaker 1>even just plain old murderers as she calls them, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>actually takes us to a kind of a universal place,

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<v Speaker 1>and that is childhood. Because you know, basically her unified

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<v Speaker 1>field theory is you'll get an incredibly violent person if

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<v Speaker 1>you have a mixture of frontal lobe damage. That is

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<v Speaker 1>to say, she would say cutting the reins on the horse,

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<v Speaker 1>so you know, not so much, um, you know, pull

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<v Speaker 1>on the limbic system to keep uh, keep relentless urges

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<v Speaker 1>from from acting on and then usually some kind of

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<v Speaker 1>terrible physical or sexual abuse as a chot um and

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<v Speaker 1>which which often is what leads to these multiple personalities.

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<v Speaker 1>And if you have a combination of those two things,

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<v Speaker 1>you usually get where you don't always get. But if

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<v Speaker 1>you look at a murderer, you will almost always find

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<v Speaker 1>a combination of those two things. Not everybody who has

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<v Speaker 1>that combination ends up as a murderers. Flipping it around, right, right,

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<v Speaker 1>it's not necessarily check the boxes and it's you know

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<v Speaker 1>the causality or you're gonna lead to that. Okay, one

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<v Speaker 1>thing before we go. Um, we are often fascinated here

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<v Speaker 1>at Bloomberg or just about kind of the financial aspect

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<v Speaker 1>of making films. And I know we've talked with a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of minorities. It's sometimes hard to get money. And

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<v Speaker 1>I do wonder is it still hard for you or

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<v Speaker 1>because you have one awards, you're noted, you're known, Um,

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<v Speaker 1>you know you've done projects that people know of you've

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<v Speaker 1>got a proven track record, you know. So when it

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<v Speaker 1>comes to funding and support, is it easily there or

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<v Speaker 1>does it take work? It always takes work. I mean

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<v Speaker 1>it's easier, um and and and if you have a

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<v Speaker 1>reputation of the body of work, it's easier. But I

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<v Speaker 1>can tell you like five projects I've had turned down

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<v Speaker 1>this year. Uh that I that I would have liked

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<v Speaker 1>to have done, but but wasn't able to get the

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<v Speaker 1>financing for. So it always takes hard work that never stops.

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<v Speaker 1>And what about though, Okay, so you've gotta work on that.

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<v Speaker 1>But I do also wonder is it easier to find

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<v Speaker 1>places to distribute? You know? One of the major themes

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<v Speaker 1>this year has been look at all the streaming service.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, there's just so much content in demand. Has

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<v Speaker 1>that side of the the formula been a little bit easier?

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<v Speaker 1>It is, I mean, um there and and particularly for documentaries,

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<v Speaker 1>per se documentaries at least sort of independent documentaries. Um.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, had a hard time being financed back in

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<v Speaker 1>the day. Now there are many outlets for it. And

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<v Speaker 1>the good news is that as opposed to the battle

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<v Speaker 1>days of commercials, that there's some commercial networks you still

0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:13.240
<v Speaker 1>work for but you know, generally you're you're selling a

0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:17.440
<v Speaker 1>film to a viewer rather than renting a viewer with

0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:20.800
<v Speaker 1>a film, you know, for on behalf of an advertisment.

0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:23.320
<v Speaker 1>So that is far more satisfying and I think it's

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<v Speaker 1>led to better and better films. Well, this was a

0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:28.040
<v Speaker 1>lot of fun. Thank you so much. Good luck um

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<v Speaker 1>with your latest documentary, Crazy Not Insane. We're talking with

0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:33.280
<v Speaker 1>Alex Gibney. Alex, thank you so much. He's founder of

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<v Speaker 1>Jigsaw Pictures, award winning director and as we mentioned, his

0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:40.640
<v Speaker 1>new documentary Crazy Not Insane, making its debut on HBO.

0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:43.720
<v Speaker 1>That's happening on Wednesday, November eighteenth, at nine pm Wall

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<v Speaker 1>Street Time,