Speaker 1: All right, welcome back to another episode of Cutting the
Speaker 1: Distance podcast. I'm your host Dirk Durham, and this week's
Speaker 1: guest does a guy I've been following on Instagram for years.
Speaker 1: I think the first time I ever met Ryan was
Speaker 1: at Western Hunt and Jordan Harberson pointed you out and said, hey,
Speaker 1: you see that guy. This is like ten years ago.
Speaker 1: He said, you see that guy over there, He's got
Speaker 1: pictures of big bulls. And I'm like, oh really yeah.
Speaker 1: So I'm like, hey, man, you gotta I heard you
Speaker 1: a lot of pictures of big bulls. And you looked
Speaker 1: at me like what.
Speaker 2: Are you talking about?
Speaker 1: Like the hell are you? What are you talking about?
Speaker 1: But on Instagram that's what caught my attention once I
Speaker 1: kind of started following along and figuring out out who
Speaker 1: you were, and it was a lot of pictures of
Speaker 1: big bull whether it was trail camp picks and VIDs
Speaker 1: or some gripping drins from clients and whatnot, and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, some shed horns and stuff you'd picked up.
Speaker 1: But anyway, welcome to the show. Ryan Carter from DC.
Speaker 2: Outfitters, Thanks sir, nice to be here.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So where do you live currently or how
Speaker 1: long you live there, I guess actually I should say.
Speaker 2: I'm south Salt Lake fifty sixty miles. Probably consider it
Speaker 2: central Utah.
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, have you lived there your whole life for?
Speaker 2: Is that?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 2: Grope guiding right here, I've kind of migrated south, like,
Speaker 2: I mean, there's still big bulls right here, but down south,
Speaker 2: like I'm attracted to the desert. I just do better
Speaker 2: down there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it's kind of crazy, like the different landscapes
Speaker 1: that Utah holds, from big beautiful timber to like date
Speaker 1: sage flats in the desert, and there's giant bulls in
Speaker 1: all of them. Would you say, there's kind of a misconception, like, man,
Speaker 1: there's just four hundred inch bowls running around everywhere in Utah.
Speaker 2: Dude, I don't say fwords very often. I just don't
Speaker 2: see them. I mean, we've had our run ins. Jeez,
Speaker 2: I probably haven't seen a real four hundred inch bowl
Speaker 2: since probably since Jimmie's bull died in Arizona. We kill
Speaker 2: a lot of three eighties, three nineties, like breaking books
Speaker 2: kind of our our goal what we shoot for. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but the F words are are few and far between,
Speaker 2: especially nowadays.
Speaker 1: So yeah, It's funny you talk when you get to
Speaker 1: talking to people and you know they're like, oh yeah, utah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's four hundred inch bulls, and you know you talk
Speaker 1: about like somebody that got a three eighty oh, three eighty. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's some four hundred inches around, Like people just throw
Speaker 1: it around sometime. It's like it's the new three hundred
Speaker 1: inch bowl, you know in some of these places so.
Speaker 2: Well, and to some people, you know, I know some
Speaker 2: guys down Arizona, that's that's their life, right, Like they
Speaker 2: kill four so that's what they do. The rest of
Speaker 2: us SAPs. Man, a three point fifty is a giant bull,
Speaker 2: three forties a giant pole. I'm not that guy to
Speaker 2: ever start talking big numbers, but I do enjoy, like, man,
Speaker 2: just focusing on the upper age class, like that's my life,
Speaker 2: that's what I care about, and we do a pretty
Speaker 2: good job of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah think yeah, Yeah, You've got some great, great pictures
Speaker 1: of bulls on the hoof and then bulls in the
Speaker 1: hands of happy clients. Yeah, it's it's awesome to see.
Speaker 1: Did you grow up in a hunting.
Speaker 2: Family then yeah, my dad hunts. My grandpa's a big hunter.
Speaker 2: Big rifle guys like honestly, and I grew up just
Speaker 2: kind of a punk, not going down that hole. But
Speaker 2: I didn't get into hunting until a really bad dirt
Speaker 2: bike crack. I was probably twenty seven, twenty eight. Oh wow,
Speaker 2: walks into my local shop and Kevin Wilke was running
Speaker 2: the bow shop. He's uh I did. For those who
Speaker 2: don't know him, he's like the marketing manager for qu
Speaker 2: I'm like, dude, I want to get into this, and
Speaker 2: he's like, oh, let's go, let's go. Here's some boats.
Speaker 2: He's fun and we still talk quite a bit. You know,
Speaker 2: same hometown.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's cool. So you could say wrecking your bike
Speaker 1: was a life changing event.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well it was a bad wreck. I was in
Speaker 2: the hospital quite a while. Honestly, it's it's everything kind
Speaker 2: of shifted in my life. Then that's when I met
Speaker 2: Sean de Gray, who runs the Tack. Got out of
Speaker 2: the hospital, me and him went like scouting for deer
Speaker 2: with a mutual friend. We've been friends since I got
Speaker 2: out of the hospital. My wife had sold all my bikes.
Speaker 2: I had little girls at the time. Yeah, it's shifted
Speaker 2: things for sure.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, So what made you want to get into
Speaker 1: too guiding.
Speaker 2: So I don't remember what year was, it had to
Speaker 2: have been around three. I drew my limited entry oak
Speaker 2: Tag local Mountains here. Killed a really big bull at
Speaker 2: any time. He's three sixty eight, but at that time
Speaker 2: I'm in Utah. Utah wasn't killing that big of bulls
Speaker 2: like he was. He was a good bull. Yeah, And
Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, I get into this. So started
Speaker 2: kicking around talking to people knew a couple outfitters, started
Speaker 2: with one guy, did a couple of years, went to
Speaker 2: Christians and Arms, did a few yers years there, and
Speaker 2: then twenty eleven decided to start our own gig and
Speaker 2: running a sense.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it seems you know, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: people always asking the same question, how do I get
Speaker 1: into the hunting industry? I think some folks just see people,
Speaker 1: you know, living the lifestyle or doing the doing the
Speaker 1: They see the most visible part. They don't see the
Speaker 1: invisible part, you know, the hard work on the back
Speaker 1: end and and stuff. What do you have any advice
Speaker 1: for people who want to get into the hunting industry
Speaker 1: and make a go of it? Now?
Speaker 2: I don't I don't know that I'm in the industry
Speaker 2: like I have another business, I run, I have, I
Speaker 2: have three girls. I'm busy, and I'd never considerself my
Speaker 2: that part. But you know i'd My whole focus is
Speaker 2: finding and killing big bulls. It's all I care about,
Speaker 2: It's all I do. I could care less about the
Speaker 2: industry part of it, other than I get to meet
Speaker 2: really cool people like you. I mean, sure I might
Speaker 2: have ran into you at the XBO. We might be friends,
Speaker 2: but it would have been in passing and you wouldn't
Speaker 2: have been able to follow up and see all my
Speaker 2: cool bulls. So thank you, Jordan Harveson. But you know,
Speaker 2: my passions are a little bit deeper than what industry is.
Speaker 2: And for all those kids that I say they want
Speaker 2: to get into the industry, I always my answer is
Speaker 2: always the same, like don't get get a real job,
Speaker 2: make real money, and buy real tags. The industry guys
Speaker 2: all have to work when it's hunting season, Like they
Speaker 2: don't get to come play like you and I do,
Speaker 2: Like unless you're a guide, unless you're full time YouTube whatever.
Speaker 2: I rotate my schedule around everybody else's needs because I'm
Speaker 2: a service provider, not a product, so things are really
Speaker 2: different for me and my crew.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's great advice. I've my kids, you know,
Speaker 1: growing up, they always they're like, I want to do
Speaker 1: something I'm passionate about, you know. I'm like, we have
Speaker 1: to kind of be careful about mixing passion and turning
Speaker 1: that into work, right, you know, I really love this,
Speaker 1: I really love that. But I always told them, like,
Speaker 1: get a job that gets paid you, pays you really
Speaker 1: well and gives you enough time off to where you
Speaker 1: can afford to go do your passion and go do that,
Speaker 1: you know, in your free time. But you know, don't
Speaker 1: mix I don't mix work work with pleasure, maybe because
Speaker 1: you'll probably be a lot happier.
Speaker 2: There's a lot to say about that, you know. I'm
Speaker 2: come mid September. My job is a job, you know,
Speaker 2: and we should be smiling and laughing like I I
Speaker 2: Opening Day. I'm gonna tell a quick story. Opening day.
Speaker 2: Had had the bull, one of the bulls we wanted
Speaker 2: to kill. Put him to bed that morning, just typically
Speaker 2: a layup spot, kind of tucked him in these beds,
Speaker 2: kind of hit him in the spot and there's just
Speaker 2: kind of a draw. They usually work up the draw
Speaker 2: in the evening. So we had kind of staged to
Speaker 2: set up like he was just going to work up
Speaker 2: to us at night. Well, a storm is blowing in
Speaker 2: the winds got a little erratic. I told the guy like, hey,
Speaker 2: let's back out, let's back out. He's like, no, he's coming.
Speaker 2: He's coming. Got sixty yards out, wind shifted. We'll kind
Speaker 2: of headed up on this mesa. I'm like, well, busted,
Speaker 2: I said. You know, the guy was older. I said, dude,
Speaker 2: can you run. He's like, yeah, I can run. I'm like, okay,
Speaker 2: if we can run, we can make it. And we
Speaker 2: we swing around this big toe and we get into
Speaker 2: the saddle where the bulls kind of always typically cross
Speaker 2: and I'm like, dude, sixty yards ahead, you see that pinion.
Speaker 2: He goes yeah. I said, if you can get at
Speaker 2: the base of that opinion, he's going to walk through
Speaker 2: that saddle. And he started to go and he got
Speaker 2: twenty yards from the pinion and the bull steps out
Speaker 2: one hundred yards away. Pinned. Just wow, he's got us
Speaker 2: right yeah, And for me, like I'm like, well, that's
Speaker 2: too bad. Like you know, my bow hunters were typically
Speaker 2: you know, one stock out of nine works, and that's
Speaker 2: how it works. Like I'm used to it and that's
Speaker 2: just the game. And so the bullpins us sees we
Speaker 2: were in his spot where he was headed and he's like, nope,
Speaker 2: I'm out, turns around, walks away. He came and up
Speaker 2: to that point, like I kind of had this big rock.
Speaker 2: I sat down. I looked over the most beautiful sunset.
Speaker 2: You know, the desert is just the sunset's in southern Utah,
Speaker 2: northern Arizona. Just unrich. I'm watching the sun I'm like,
Speaker 2: this is red. And he comes walking back. He sits
Speaker 2: by me, and you know, I'm just kind of watching
Speaker 2: the sun thinking. I look over and he's mad. He's hot.
Speaker 2: Oh man, kind of kind of tore into me a
Speaker 2: little bit, like that wasn't supposed to play out that way.
Speaker 2: This is what it is. And I'm like, whoa, Like
Speaker 2: We're going to do this nine more times, probably on
Speaker 2: that bowl. Relax, like enjoy the sunset, like we're good man.
Speaker 2: I love to hunt, and so it's one of those things.
Speaker 2: It's it's it's work, but at the same time, it
Speaker 2: is cool work. I don't I don't know if it's
Speaker 2: a it's a catch twenty two.
Speaker 1: I guess yeah, yeah, yeah, I think people kind of
Speaker 1: forget to like they put so much pressure on the outcome,
Speaker 1: they kind of forget to enjoy the whole process. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you fail nine out of ten stocks, right, you
Speaker 1: know people kind of think, oh, yeah, you probably call
Speaker 1: in bulls, you know, left and right. It's the same
Speaker 1: thing with calling in l you know. For me, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe one out of every ten bulls, I
Speaker 1: get the bugle, we'll get into archery range and and
Speaker 1: maybe we'll have a shot because it's you know, maybe
Speaker 1: too brushy or.
Speaker 2: Whatever, but or if he's the caliber you're looking for, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I deal with limited entry. It's you and I'd run
Speaker 2: kind of different worlds. Sure that goes same species, but yeah,
Speaker 2: I'll call in you know, twenty or thirty three, twenty
Speaker 2: three thirty class bulls to one big, big bull. And
Speaker 2: I'm not complaining, Like it's awesome, like I see cool things.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, it's like I've had clients.
Speaker 2: I had one guy say like, dude, you call in
Speaker 2: one more three forty bowl, I'm gonna wrap this barrel
Speaker 2: around your head. You're driving me nut. That's the right, Like,
Speaker 2: enjoy it. It's fun.
Speaker 1: This is fun, man. Yeah, Yeah, that kind of makes
Speaker 1: it weird and tough sometimes. But but I think you know,
Speaker 1: you know what makes you tick and what makes you happy,
Speaker 1: So there's always that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1: How many years or excuse me, how many days a
Speaker 1: year do you spend out in the field with hunting
Speaker 1: related stuff, whether it's guiding or shed hunting or setin
Speaker 1: trail cams?
Speaker 2: Mhm? You know what, I really don't know the answer
Speaker 2: to that. I I don't shed hunt as much as
Speaker 2: I used to. You know, I've gotten a little older.
Speaker 2: I used to really get a kick out of Well,
Speaker 2: two things happened. One the state got rid of trail cameras.
Speaker 2: Like we have a season now, right Like, I put
Speaker 2: them out first of July, pick them up into July,
Speaker 2: and that's all I get. Used to be that I
Speaker 2: could run them all year. I like to kind of
Speaker 2: watch what the elk we're doing all winter. I've tried
Speaker 2: to go in and get their sheds. I really tried
Speaker 2: to retain as much info as I could. Pulling the
Speaker 2: trail cameras really kind of took that fire out of me.
Speaker 2: In fact, I don't really even shed hunt where my
Speaker 2: bulls are anymore. So I don't know I don't even
Speaker 2: know how to answer that question. It's just things have changed.
Speaker 2: I've gotten older. I'm push them fifty now. I don't
Speaker 2: have that drive that I used to have. I would
Speaker 2: guess I'm probably sixty, between sixty and ninety a year.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Back when you were running your full camera
Speaker 1: game days, back before they had the season, man, you
Speaker 1: must have had an incredible amount of photos to go
Speaker 1: through and just you know, with that many cameras out,
Speaker 1: how many cameras would you typically run back then?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean when we say back then, you know
Speaker 2: it trail as, trail cameras evolved. Things got better, you know,
Speaker 2: like used to be that you'd put in your thirty
Speaker 2: five mil cam and the cows would come in and
Speaker 2: get on your salt, and you got a bunch of
Speaker 2: moo cow pictures and you hung your ten cameras that
Speaker 2: were you know, one hundred bucks, which seems so expensive,
Speaker 2: and most of them were moo cows, and it was
Speaker 2: fifty dollars to develop the film. And it was I think,
Speaker 2: you know, fourteen fifteen got to where we're using more
Speaker 2: SD cards. I probably got into like twenties, you know,
Speaker 2: twenty cameras or so seventeen eighteen is when I really
Speaker 2: started dropping some cameras and I got out to like, oh,
Speaker 2: I'd be one hundred and fifteen ish a year by
Speaker 2: myself for me and Aaron. That was helping me anymore.
Speaker 2: We just have a month, so I kind of regulate
Speaker 2: what we put out because we have to pull them all.
Speaker 2: But I still think, you know, there's nine guides working
Speaker 2: with us now, and I think between all of us
Speaker 2: we push almost two hundred cameras between the units. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but it's thirty or forty each. It's palatable before it wasn't.
Speaker 1: That's a lot of batteries. You probably buy those things
Speaker 1: in bulk off Amazon.
Speaker 2: Amazon's great for bulk for sure.
Speaker 1: Do you run the do you run the lithium double
Speaker 1: a's or what are you running those?
Speaker 2: I did when I could have them out in the winter,
Speaker 2: so lithium doesn't freeze as fast as al alkali does,
Speaker 2: so the winner. I always ran the lithiums because it
Speaker 2: saved me cameras so they weren't exploding. I didn't have
Speaker 2: battery acid everywhere, sure, so yes I used to. But
Speaker 2: now that I only have I mean I technically I
Speaker 2: could drop them off in January, but most of my
Speaker 2: spots I can't access till June. Their high altitude, most
Speaker 2: of them, like the plateau that I spend most of
Speaker 2: my time on to eleven thousand feet and I drop
Speaker 2: into the high desert the nine thousand foot range quite
Speaker 2: a bit, but it's not worth putting cameras out till July,
Speaker 2: so I run the industrial Alkali set. Most of my
Speaker 2: cameras on video anymore, which which eats cards, but for
Speaker 2: six weeks of information it's different. So ten eight years
Speaker 2: ago I was I was running about I think we'd
Speaker 2: pull about twenty thousand good photos a year, and right
Speaker 2: now we're probably between five hundred and two thousand.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, wow, twenty thousand good ones? So yeah, how
Speaker 1: many bad ones? Undred thousand?
Speaker 2: I have about a terra of storage just in trail
Speaker 2: camera photos. One terror, it's a lot. That's great.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I'm gonna shift gears real quick here. So
Speaker 1: it's Today's Pendleton Whiskey Q and A. Every episode we
Speaker 1: ask a question sponsored by Pendleton Whiskey. This one is
Speaker 1: it's a pretty easy one. It should be simple, elk
Speaker 1: or mule deer?
Speaker 2: Which is better? I dude, Yeah, that's an easy question.
Speaker 1: Okay, we'll good.
Speaker 2: And so I used to guy mule there, oh three
Speaker 2: oh four to two thousand. I think my last one
Speaker 2: was like ten or eleven, and I was a young guy.
Speaker 2: But you know, we had a unit called the Henry Mountains.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you've heard about it Mountains. It
Speaker 2: had been closed down for five or six years. That
Speaker 2: open back up. One of my buddy's dads and mentors.
Speaker 2: I still credit him to a lot of the things
Speaker 2: I've learned today. Drew a sportsman's tag, which gives him
Speaker 2: state wide access. We killed a giant meal deer like
Speaker 2: two sixty seven I think, and after that I kind
Speaker 2: of got hooked on the Henrys and I think we
Speaker 2: killed eight bucks that would break two twenty ish oh
Speaker 2: man through those couple of years, and it was a riot.
Speaker 2: I kicked myself because at the time I had this
Speaker 2: like twenty year old mentality. I didn't take pictures with
Speaker 2: the guys. I'm like that it's their buck, and sometimes
Speaker 2: we'd have pack out pictures that kind of thing. But
Speaker 2: I've learned really quick. The hardest part about meal there
Speaker 2: was just finding them because in my opinion, and this
Speaker 2: is limited entry, right, but it's not public land. It
Speaker 2: was once you found them. If you get the wind right,
Speaker 2: like as good as dead most of the time. Didn't
Speaker 2: take eight or nine stocks. It might take two, right
Speaker 2: if you could, if you knew how to work the wind,
Speaker 2: muld or die. And I'm not like discrediting any mule
Speaker 2: deer guys at all. I just when I have that
Speaker 2: debate with people, I say, look, man, when you start
Speaker 2: tipping over four hundred inch bulls and you can tell
Speaker 2: me how many stocks it took for each one, then
Speaker 2: you can start telling me which one's harder. I won't
Speaker 2: point any fingers until you sit down and do it,
Speaker 2: and then we can sit and compare notes.
Speaker 1: So I love it. I typically just say, well, which
Speaker 1: one bugles, and that's that's the one that settles it
Speaker 1: for me. Like, well, they don't bugle, so they're not cool.
Speaker 2: There's that too. But you're good at talking to elk.
Speaker 2: I talked to them by breaking sticks, you know, when
Speaker 2: things get quiet. I I try to sound like an
Speaker 2: elk and it works, so I do things a little
Speaker 2: bit different. I can't talk to elk like you do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's the great the great part about talking
Speaker 1: to help though, is like you using you know, sticks
Speaker 1: and stuff, and people have to keep their mind open
Speaker 1: to that too. It's like, yeah, I just can't bugle
Speaker 1: or I can't calcol or whatever to save means. But
Speaker 1: I don't know how many times I've I've been walking,
Speaker 1: you know, popping brush and stuff and have bolls, you know,
Speaker 1: bugle at me. And if i'd have just not bugled,
Speaker 1: if I'd probably just picked up a stick and raked
Speaker 1: or something, I both probably would have came right in.
Speaker 2: I never tried that.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna try that next time.
Speaker 2: Well, so for me, I'm always calling for clients, right,
Speaker 2: and I wouldn't say I'm a bad call or I'm not.
Speaker 2: I work out pretty well. But that quiet time when
Speaker 2: they hold up, with that quiet time when they kind
Speaker 2: of pause, and I'm like, oh crap, I know they're
Speaker 2: in the range of the bow. Either doesn't have a
Speaker 2: shot or whatever's going. I didn't pay eight thousand for
Speaker 2: this tag. I walk over and take the biggest log
Speaker 2: and bust it against your tree, because I'm telling you, like,
Speaker 2: when they hold up, they're like, something's not right. But
Speaker 2: if they hear oh no, there's elk down there. They
Speaker 2: keep going more often than not. If I can make
Speaker 2: them like at least think that, Okay, what I heard
Speaker 2: was an elk, I'm gonna keep pursuing I can get
Speaker 2: them to feed past that shooter. So, like I said,
Speaker 2: I I'm not a great talker to elk. Like when
Speaker 2: Corey asked me, like, hey, dude, what did you say,
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't know. Just blowing my tube. That's
Speaker 2: that's what it is for me. I get them to
Speaker 2: stop pausing by making a little more noise, making myself
Speaker 2: seem like an elk just far enough you can't quite
Speaker 2: see to keep walking past my shooter. And that that's
Speaker 2: that's how I work out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's some great advice. I think a lot
Speaker 1: of folks who come from let's say the Midwest or
Speaker 1: the Deep South or the East Coast, they come out thinking, Okay,
Speaker 1: we're gonna do this kind of like wild why tail
Speaker 1: hunting or whatever. And and you want to be quiet
Speaker 1: when you're white tail hunting, right, that just doesn't work
Speaker 1: with with helk hunting. You have to be noisy elkra
Speaker 1: noisy animals. You know, you you hear a bowl coming
Speaker 1: man he's popping brush and snapping this and that and
Speaker 1: making noise and and yeah, you have to add that
Speaker 1: realism in there. So yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2: They are big, that's for sure. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So you mentioned shed hunting some of the bulls that
Speaker 1: you've been had on camera. How hard was that to like, Okay,
Speaker 1: we find these things in the summer range, we follow
Speaker 1: them through the rut, and then you know they're gonna
Speaker 1: turn up on the winter range somewhere and then be like,
Speaker 1: oh man, Jackpie, I remember this guy, I pick up
Speaker 1: a set of sheds. I mean, how how often did
Speaker 1: that happen back when you used to do that? Is
Speaker 1: that like pretty common or was it like oh wow,
Speaker 1: like you don't normally find the guy that you've seen
Speaker 1: in August or or July.
Speaker 2: Hm, me personally grabbing one of those bulls was very rare,
Speaker 2: pretty few and far between. Impact. It's just it's such
Speaker 2: a small world anymore. I Like, I know, people say
Speaker 2: the industry, they say our community. It's like it's big.
Speaker 2: It's it's really not. So I did a lot better
Speaker 2: with just kind of keeping my tabs on social media,
Speaker 2: watching these people that I know hit that area and bam,
Speaker 2: they pop up holding these giant sheds that oh that's cool,
Speaker 2: that's this bull like, and I'd hit them up like, hey, bro,
Speaker 2: like how big is he? What does you score?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: Can I take some looks at him? Like where are
Speaker 2: you at? And I'd meet up with these kids and
Speaker 2: measure the bulls out and then have an idea of
Speaker 2: what they scored the next year. Now, when I was
Speaker 2: in my twenties, we didn't have big elk. I did
Speaker 2: find a few, but it was a different thing. It
Speaker 2: was my thirties that things kind of shifted and we
Speaker 2: started getting into that world. My guides. I have two
Speaker 2: or three guides that are really good at that, like
Speaker 2: really good and keeping tabs on them all winter, picking
Speaker 2: them up. West just found one side off one of
Speaker 2: our biggest bulls, and he's as big as we thought
Speaker 2: he was. And that's it's nice to see. But if
Speaker 2: I was to go over statistics and say how often
Speaker 2: that happens, it's pretty rare. It's really rare.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd be quite it's quite an achievement. Then whenever
Speaker 1: it does get put together, like holy cow, that's him,
Speaker 1: you know, pretty exciting. Instead of just finding some random
Speaker 1: ones you don't have any history with.
Speaker 2: I get excited easy Dirt when I find him on camera,
Speaker 2: I get that excited. Did I start freaking out? So yeah,
Speaker 2: you too.
Speaker 1: I run a lot of cameras too, nothing like the
Speaker 1: game you do. But and I'm like, I'm so jacked
Speaker 1: if I see a bull come back in Idaho here. Man,
Speaker 1: it's so tough, you know, with our our winters and
Speaker 1: our wolf population, and you know it's it's not limited
Speaker 1: entry at least where I'm going. And you're just like,
Speaker 1: you never know if if a ball is going to
Speaker 1: turn up again the next year, and you get him
Speaker 1: a couple three years in a row on camera, You're like, oh, wow, man,
Speaker 1: this guy's good. He's he knows where to hide and
Speaker 1: how to avoid all the pitfalls that life has to
Speaker 1: throw at him. So yeah, I can relate. It's like
Speaker 1: Christmas every time you open that card and you start seeing, oh, man,
Speaker 1: I think that might be the same one. So then
Speaker 1: you're digging back in your in your hard drive, on
Speaker 1: your and your archives there to see if that's really
Speaker 1: the same one or maybe one that just look like it.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I get pretty I think that's one of
Speaker 2: the best parts of ELT cunning is putting the pieces together.
Speaker 2: It's something I'll never like get sick of. I never
Speaker 2: get tired of it. Not for me, Like killing them
Speaker 2: is just killing them, like it's just it's another dead bull.
Speaker 2: But over the years, like learning the things I do
Speaker 2: from them, finding out like man, I have hit bulls
Speaker 2: that hit the same water to the same day a
Speaker 2: year later. Like I had one bull hit the same
Speaker 2: spot three years running on July seventh, Wow. And I
Speaker 2: had one bowl the last two years come into the
Speaker 2: same little valley September first, the last two years, and
Speaker 2: I mean big bulls, like old age class bulls that
Speaker 2: I still didn't connect with. I didn't kill of those two.
Speaker 2: I didn't kill either one of them. But it's putting
Speaker 2: those pieces together and seeing like geez, what is he
Speaker 2: doing on these dates? Why does he pull in here?
Speaker 2: What's going on? Whether it's you know, their feed, the
Speaker 2: acorns came on, they moved off the top, whatever it is,
Speaker 2: it changes their behavior, you're And those are the fun
Speaker 2: little pieces to put together, you know, finding the sheds
Speaker 2: or picking up the getting the trail camp picks, that's
Speaker 2: that's cool too. But learning lessons from some of these
Speaker 2: older pools. That's that's fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so cool. So what's your opinion? Maybe you
Speaker 1: don't have opinion on it, but what's your opinion on
Speaker 1: shed seasons? Is that a good thing? Is that a
Speaker 1: bad thing? Is it doesn't really matter to you? Or
Speaker 1: what do you think?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean everything's everything weighs into that, right. I
Speaker 2: really think there's some places where it it's a there's
Speaker 2: a lot to be said about overregulation, right, Like our
Speaker 2: states come in, like they've treated our resources like their own.
Speaker 2: They've tried to pull the people's from doing something that
Speaker 2: they should be able to just go do anytime. Like
Speaker 2: who's to say when it's okay that somebody goes snowmobiling
Speaker 2: January twentieth, and who's out there hiking or killing coyotes
Speaker 2: or whatever they're out doing. So I'm not a fan
Speaker 2: of that. However, I personally have pushed out too hard.
Speaker 2: I'll like, I know it happens, it happens pretty regular,
Speaker 2: and so I know that there's a lot of value
Speaker 2: in trying to put a season on that gives them
Speaker 2: a chance, like it's such a detrimental time and their
Speaker 2: fat contents down and on a hard winner. Shed hunters
Speaker 2: will kill a bull. They will, and so I'm not
Speaker 2: completely against it either. It's just one of those things
Speaker 2: that I wish, you know, we had a good enough
Speaker 2: community to know when that's right and wrong. But since
Speaker 2: we don't, the government has to come in and regulate us,
Speaker 2: and it changes things. It makes things hard, It makes
Speaker 2: people bicker, it makes people tattletale on other people for
Speaker 2: doing something that just seems so petty and silly. I'd
Speaker 2: never say shed hunting takes a lot of talent. I'm
Speaker 2: not that guy. You don't have to get the wind right,
Speaker 2: you don't have to pattern anything. Your homework pays off
Speaker 2: one hundred percent. It does, like getting out in February
Speaker 2: of March and watching these bulls, like homework pays off.
Speaker 2: But it's not something that just takes a lot of talent,
Speaker 2: but some self regulation to be nice.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, yeah, I agree with a lot of that.
Speaker 1: I'm not a big shed hunter like. I enjoy it,
Speaker 1: but I don't put much effort into it. So I
Speaker 1: can't say I have big stacks of antlers like some
Speaker 1: of these guys have. But I do enjoy it. But
Speaker 1: I can I see that some of what you're saying too,
Speaker 1: you know, they'll shut it down for shed hunting, but
Speaker 1: other outdoor enthusiasts are free to go do whatever they want.
Speaker 1: So I feel like that's a little unfair or a
Speaker 1: little narrow minded. If you're really trying to help the animals,
Speaker 1: maybe they should, you know, close it down for everybody
Speaker 1: for a certain time, like truly, like don't interfere with
Speaker 1: the animals right now for anyone, you know. And I'm
Speaker 1: I'm with you. I don't like a lot of you know,
Speaker 1: government overreach and saying, you know, it's a free country.
Speaker 1: We should be able to go do whatever we want.
Speaker 1: You know, we have to kind of you have to
Speaker 1: look think bigger than ourselves sometimes, you know, it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, let's let let's let those animals have a break,
Speaker 1: But that means, like you say, snowmobilers, No, you guys
Speaker 1: can't go up there, you know, hikers, you know, kyo hunters.
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe not. I just don't think, you know, if
Speaker 1: they're going to shut it down for one group, they
Speaker 1: should probably shut it down for all of them. And
Speaker 1: I think I think more people would be probably have
Speaker 1: more respect for the the idea of it than anything
Speaker 1: if they did that.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, we look back like hunters as a
Speaker 2: as a whole. I mean, if you look back like
Speaker 2: Wisconsin had a winner that was super bad, came in early,
Speaker 2: all the deer were dying, it was too deep to
Speaker 2: get to feed. Most of the state turned in their
Speaker 2: deer tags and all the money that they would have
Speaker 2: taken to go hunting. The hunters jump back into buying
Speaker 2: feed and trying to rescue some of these deer, and
Speaker 2: still most of them died. Like it was a really
Speaker 2: harsh winner. But I still think we have a lot
Speaker 2: of people with the same values. I think if we
Speaker 2: let people give them a chance, I think a lot
Speaker 2: of them would step up at right times when we
Speaker 2: have a bad winner like we did two years ago.
Speaker 2: And I think if they simply asked, hey, give them
Speaker 2: a chance, stay out of there, like we need to
Speaker 2: try to keep our wildlife alive. I think most hunters one,
Speaker 2: I think would you just what they asked? And two,
Speaker 2: I think they would self regulate that there's always the guys,
Speaker 2: Like they're going to meet the guys at their truck
Speaker 2: at the bottom of the canyon, Like, bro, what are
Speaker 2: you doing up there? Stay in your truck they're not
Speaker 2: done the shows. Do you give them some time? I
Speaker 2: think we govern ourselves a lot of the time, and
Speaker 2: so I have a hard time when government comes in
Speaker 2: and tries poking us. So, man, when you start going
Speaker 2: down the regulation track, I get a little upset.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, I get it. I can see
Speaker 1: that for sure. We'll flip flop a little bit here.
Speaker 1: Back to what you were saying about the camera season
Speaker 1: in Utah is so short now that you don't do
Speaker 1: You don't run the amount of cameras or time that
Speaker 1: you used to do. You think that has and it's
Speaker 1: been a few years now, you think that's positively positively
Speaker 1: impacted animals? Negatively didn't make a difference. What's your opinion
Speaker 1: on that whole thing?
Speaker 2: Zero difference zero. You know, I had a friend draw Tag.
Speaker 2: In fact, he killed a pretty big bull. I had
Speaker 2: kind of talked him through it a bit, but you know,
Speaker 2: he pulled me on on a podcast to talk to
Speaker 2: me about it, and you know he was telling me,
Speaker 2: he was like, you know, I think I think if
Speaker 2: we still had the camera rules, I think if I
Speaker 2: could have kept running them, I hard have figured out
Speaker 2: where he disappeared on on day nine eleven. I think
Speaker 2: I could have killed him, And I said, you know,
Speaker 2: I saw a lot of guys with the same mentality
Speaker 2: hold out on that tag, passed the three sixty, past
Speaker 2: the three seventy, knowing there was a three to ninety
Speaker 2: and eat their tag and it was about fifty to fifty.
Speaker 2: Like some people were successful. Most people ate their tag,
Speaker 2: and now it's gone, like everyone's just like, oh, that
Speaker 2: was the glory days. And I'm like, maybe I never
Speaker 2: successfully because I don't have service and cell camera things
Speaker 2: were back then still fairly new, right, every card I
Speaker 2: had to get to I had to walk to and
Speaker 2: pull sure, you know, get out my DSLR, flipped through
Speaker 2: it and see what was there. And I'd have to
Speaker 2: go through the routes and find all these cameras and
Speaker 2: I'd spend half my day doing stuff that I didn't
Speaker 2: need to do. I really haven't seen our success rise
Speaker 2: or fall any I think we're still as good as
Speaker 2: we were. And I just when I look back at
Speaker 2: my successes, none of them revolved around the camera like
Speaker 2: it was cool to have them running. And man, I
Speaker 2: missed the bogling videos, you know, I missed the rut
Speaker 2: on trail cameras. But it's in my opinion, and they
Speaker 2: made this law through legislation without letting our state be involved.
Speaker 2: And they really hosed like to do it yourself, hunter
Speaker 2: from competing against guys like me. They really did that.
Speaker 2: Those guys, you know, they're lucky to get fifteen cameras
Speaker 2: out and they didn't get to hunt these units the
Speaker 2: year prior or the year prior to that. They uncle
Speaker 2: might have had the tag four years ago, they might
Speaker 2: have an idea where to go. But man, they really
Speaker 2: shafted those guys from competing against the guys who are
Speaker 2: down there every year, the outfitters that the guys that
Speaker 2: just mean they're getting paid to be there. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: just another instant of the state coming in with no
Speaker 2: science backing it. You know, Nevada. When Utah made this law, Nevada,
Speaker 2: I had already been doing it for three four years. Okay,
Speaker 2: zero increase an opportunity, zero increase in age class. In fact,
Speaker 2: if anything had fallen, the science pointed to the fact
Speaker 2: that the cameras do nothing yet because somebody had their
Speaker 2: feelings hurt somewhere and I could name names, but because
Speaker 2: you know, a little little baby Casey had his feelings hurt.
Speaker 2: We had to lose, lose an opportunity for everybody else.
Speaker 2: And while he thought he was helping to do it yourself, Hunter,
Speaker 2: while he thought he was intervening with the people that
Speaker 2: needed the help, he really really shafted them in a
Speaker 2: bad way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you think most of the intent was like, hey,
Speaker 1: let's level this playing field to the between the outfitters
Speaker 1: and the common guy that just drew the tag.
Speaker 2: That statement was used over and over and over again,
Speaker 2: that level of playing field and I'm not afraid to hunt.
Speaker 2: I heard it over and over again, and I just thought, man,
Speaker 2: you guys like you have no idea what you're saying.
Speaker 2: You have no idea the amount of field time it
Speaker 2: takes to do what some of these other guys do,
Speaker 2: if that's what you need, you.
Speaker 1: Know, man, you know we kind of see that stuff
Speaker 1: here in Idaho with their own game commission. Sometimes I
Speaker 1: hate to throw rocks, but sometimes, you know, people want
Speaker 1: to make rules around things they don't understand that much too.
Speaker 1: You know, a lot of the people may be pushing
Speaker 1: for these rules and regulations of different things. They they
Speaker 1: don't actively run cameras, they don't run lighted knocks. They've
Speaker 1: never shot a flint lock muzzleoder versus a in line
Speaker 1: or whatever. And man, it is hard to like get
Speaker 1: people to wrap their heads around stuff. And they've never
Speaker 1: even participated and know anything about trail cameras or in
Speaker 1: inline muzzleloaders or whatever. They just think, oh, you got
Speaker 1: trail cameras, you can just kill any bowl you want.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: It just doesn't work that way. We run sell cameras
Speaker 1: at my buddy's place in Kansas, and they'll be deer
Speaker 1: on it. They'll be whether we're hunting deer, turkeys, you know, turkeys.
Speaker 1: Oh man, there's gobblers on that camera right now. Well,
Speaker 1: you can run over there within fifteen minutes and you'll
Speaker 1: be damned if you'll find a gobbler or a turkey,
Speaker 1: Like where do they go? And in fact, you would
Speaker 1: almost it makes you start chasing your tail a little
Speaker 1: bit on those things. Pretty soon you're just kind of
Speaker 1: going here, going there. It's like, this isn't good information.
Speaker 1: We just need to go find turkeys that want to
Speaker 1: talk and hunt them and just just do that. And
Speaker 1: we always seem to do better when we do that.
Speaker 1: So I don't, yeah, I don't think they're leveling the
Speaker 1: playing field at all by taking that away from people.
Speaker 2: I agree, I agree.
Speaker 1: So have you Have you heard about Idaho requiring non
Speaker 1: residents to buy a hunting license before they go shed hunting?
Speaker 2: What is is that? What it came down to you?
Speaker 2: Like I had heard and I didn't follow ups. I
Speaker 2: don't shed hunt Idaho at all. Yeah, I thought they
Speaker 2: were requiring you to get a license for shed hunting.
Speaker 2: But that's what they're doing, is making them buy a
Speaker 2: hunting license in order to shed.
Speaker 1: Out, Yes, a valid hunting license, non resident hunting license,
Speaker 1: which is what one hundred and twenty three bucks or
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty some bucks for a non resident
Speaker 1: hunting license to come into the state of Idaho and
Speaker 1: shed hunt.
Speaker 2: Have they have they gotten better about their I mean
Speaker 2: I watched social media, right I'm stuck. I didn't like
Speaker 2: we were talking about the industry guys like I don't
Speaker 2: get to go hunt Idaho because I'm stuck right in
Speaker 2: the industry doing my stuff here. In fact, I don't
Speaker 2: see a lot of the big bulls until October on
Speaker 2: reposts because I don't have service for the month of September. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but you know, what I see on social media when
Speaker 2: people are trying to buy tags in Idaho, Like there's
Speaker 2: a huge weight, like twenty thousand people.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 2: So does that are you in that line to get
Speaker 2: a tag in order to shed hunt or is it
Speaker 2: just like a habitat license.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just a it's just a kind of like
Speaker 1: a habitat, just a journal hunting license. So you buy
Speaker 1: the hunting license, then then you wait in line to
Speaker 1: buy a tag of some kind of leather, it's deer, elk, whatever.
Speaker 1: But you can get a turkey tag or a bear
Speaker 1: tag or a you know, small like upland game permit
Speaker 1: on top of that general hunting license.
Speaker 2: As far as that's concerned, it's probably smart on Idaho's part,
Speaker 2: because one, you're not increasing or decreasing opportunity, you're taking
Speaker 2: one of your natural resources and finding a way to
Speaker 2: make commission off it. Right, the state's pulling in some money,
Speaker 2: and it's pulling in money from non residence, which they
Speaker 2: should because the non residents technically aren't paying their taxes
Speaker 2: for those animals. I'm not against that. I don't think
Speaker 2: it sounds like a terrible idea. Now, if they were
Speaker 2: making us wait in that twenty thousand line pool to
Speaker 2: go after them. Then you'd think, yeah, like that's that's
Speaker 2: going to really cripple money coming in. And as much
Speaker 2: as people want to complain about shed hunters and non
Speaker 2: residence coming in, I personally like see the small communities
Speaker 2: where I hunt, they're shut down really and and I'm
Speaker 2: between national parks, so where I guide it is kind
Speaker 2: of between Bryce and Capitol Reef and Zion National Park.
Speaker 2: I spend a lot of time. I mean when I
Speaker 2: sit out on some of these lookouts and glass for bulls,
Speaker 2: Like there's more Chinese and French people than I ever
Speaker 2: see white Americans ever, and it's interesting and cool. But
Speaker 2: I spend a lot of time in the parks. These
Speaker 2: towns are shut down December, January, February, no money coming in.
Speaker 2: They've had to have saved their money from the summertime.
Speaker 2: And what's crazy is people start they start opening up
Speaker 2: their shops in March because here comes the shed hunters.
Speaker 2: Hotels get booked, the restaurants get hit, the grocery stores
Speaker 2: have more money coming in. Complain all you want, but
Speaker 2: hunters bring in revenue. They really do, and it really
Speaker 2: helps the state. It helps the small towns, It helps
Speaker 2: these little people with these small businesses get by. So
Speaker 2: complain all you want about shied hunting being popular and
Speaker 2: causing problems, it does. But at the same time, it
Speaker 2: helps out the community, It helps out other people, and
Speaker 2: in Idaho state, why not why not take the non
Speaker 2: residence money and help put it back into something else.
Speaker 2: So I don't think that's a bad call, terrible call.
Speaker 2: It would be different if it was changing opportunity, if
Speaker 2: it was changing you know, the age class of the
Speaker 2: of the animals. It's not, it's not really crippling anybody.
Speaker 2: It's just bringing in revenue. Good for Idaho. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah. They they also kind of thought like, well, instead
Speaker 1: of like imposing maybe seasons, we can maybe control a
Speaker 1: little bit of the flow of people coming in that
Speaker 1: you know that people just like on a whim and
Speaker 1: be like, hey, let's run over there real quick and
Speaker 1: go shd hunting. You maybe have less people just on
Speaker 1: a whim coming over. They'll maybe don't they're not willing
Speaker 1: to spend that extra hundred bucks or whatever that license
Speaker 1: is that come over. But yeah, and I think it
Speaker 1: also keeps the residents of Idaho happy because there's a
Speaker 1: lot of you know, you know how it is that there.
Speaker 1: Every state has it. You know, they complain about non residents,
Speaker 1: you guys coming and shooting all of our deer or elk.
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of grumblings amongst that. So
Speaker 1: I feel like maybe that kind of helps, you know,
Speaker 1: temper some of that beckering through the locals. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like, well they, hey, these guys are paying to
Speaker 1: come here.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I think probably some of them would like to set
Speaker 1: up a border that where they couldn't even come over
Speaker 1: and shed hunt or rifle hunt or anything, or bowhunt anything.
Speaker 1: But that's just not the way it works.
Speaker 2: No, I think it belongs to the public. It needs
Speaker 2: to stay in graphs of the public's reach. And honestly,
Speaker 2: like I mean, if we're to look from a broader perspective, right,
Speaker 2: if we're to look at some of those things, like
Speaker 2: I have these guys that are like, dude, what do
Speaker 2: you do post in that picture? Like they know where
Speaker 2: that walla is? And I'm like, they might, but I
Speaker 2: know what it takes to get in there, and it's
Speaker 2: not easy, and in all reality, most people don't want
Speaker 2: to do the work. I don't stress about a lot
Speaker 2: of that stuff. I look at it, I'm like, okay,
Speaker 2: makes sense. Cool. However, like the amount of people that
Speaker 2: really put in the work to do things like shed hunting, man,
Speaker 2: it requires some time, It requs. It requires some physical
Speaker 2: capabilities that not everybody has. Yea, And yeah, it's upsetting
Speaker 2: when when some dude picks up this set you've been
Speaker 2: watching since January, especially if the dudes from another state, Right,
Speaker 2: Joe Smo from Utah just showed up and pulled this
Speaker 2: my favorite set. I get being mad, but I think
Speaker 2: that's just part of being mad. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's no different than going out to the
Speaker 1: to the dance hall. Right, some out of towner's come
Speaker 1: in and scoop up one of the local girls and
Speaker 1: take them home Marriham or whatever, and it's like, Hey,
Speaker 1: what the heck? People got to be mad about anything?
Speaker 2: Yeah? For sure?
Speaker 1: Well cool, I think we should wrap things up. You
Speaker 1: got any final comments on what maybe twenty twenty five
Speaker 1: is going to look like as far as antler growth,
Speaker 1: and you let a optimistic anticipation of the fall, you're
Speaker 1: probably just excited to go again.
Speaker 2: I uh, man, it's going to be an interesting year.
Speaker 2: Like we down here, we haven't had any snow. Utah
Speaker 2: and Arizona are really going to struggle putting up the
Speaker 2: numbers that they have in years past. Now both can
Speaker 2: change on a dime, Like I really believe, you know,
Speaker 2: hard winters up north hurt animals, antler growth for sure,
Speaker 2: like even where I live right here, But southern Utah
Speaker 2: and Arizon don't know. These these bulls that win around
Speaker 2: maces and and and down in the slick rock country,
Speaker 2: really all they need is water in March in April.
Speaker 2: If we get moisture put down right now, like these
Speaker 2: bulls will be as big as they ever are or
Speaker 2: as up north. It might be a tough year, But honestly,
Speaker 2: Utah hasn't. It hasn't shot for age class in northern Utah.
Speaker 2: It's if anything, it's used your northern Utah as an
Speaker 2: outlet to level our point creep, give people opportunity, and
Speaker 2: they've kept Southern Utah to carry age class. So there's
Speaker 2: still you know, if we get some rain, I still
Speaker 2: think Utah can do fairly well. But at the same time,
Speaker 2: right now it looks really bleak. I think as a resident,
Speaker 2: I'm only allowed to put in for one species elk,
Speaker 2: deer or antelope, and then on resident across or once
Speaker 2: in a lifetime across the board, and all my points
Speaker 2: are on deer, and I hunt desert deer. I don't
Speaker 2: go to the high altitude stuff. So for me, like
Speaker 2: I'm retaining my points, I'm going to buy a point
Speaker 2: or put in for some weird tag that I probably
Speaker 2: can't draw because it's just not that year that I
Speaker 2: think we're going to get the phenomenal growth in the desert,
Speaker 2: So I'm holding back. So it's hard to say. I
Speaker 2: don't stress about it. I just look forward to the
Speaker 2: good time because even on bad years, we kill good bulls.
Speaker 2: They're broken up, but they're still good, and I just
Speaker 2: like to have a good time.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, awesome. Where can folks find you if they
Speaker 1: want to find you on social or your your website
Speaker 1: for your outfitting.
Speaker 2: Business socials, Just Ryan DC Outfitters websites U d c
Speaker 2: O Utah or if you type in DC Outfitters Utah,
Speaker 2: it'll pop up. You can find me either place like
Speaker 2: I do a lot of social stuff, as you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, give them a follow on Instagram. Man,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's great if you like to see pictures
Speaker 1: of cool, cool bowls and videos. I mean, you still
Speaker 1: post some of those good old days where videos where
Speaker 1: you'll get a rut a rut, bull come through and
Speaker 1: bugle or something. So I always go to those. So
Speaker 1: every now and the end see one of those. But
Speaker 1: but man, I appreciate you coming on today and look
Speaker 1: forward to what you and your clients pull out of
Speaker 1: the woods as folk.
Speaker 2: Ah, thanks sir here as well. Man, best of luck
Speaker 2: to you.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, we'll catch everybody on the flip flop, all right.
Speaker 2: Look