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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome.

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Speaker 2: So's my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hartstar, that's Karen Kilgariff,

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Speaker 2: And here we are podcasting once again.

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Speaker 3: Here we are.

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Speaker 1: Those are pretty nails.

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Speaker 2: I know there are adults nails that I've somehow put

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Speaker 2: on me magnetic. They're like gel X, so they're like

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Speaker 2: not my nails, And suddenly I feel like this and dresses,

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Speaker 2: I feel like, are the trick to making people think

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Speaker 2: you have your shit together.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. Boom, are you not pointing things out

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Speaker 1: like this?

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Speaker 2: I am definitely talking with my hands a lot more

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Speaker 2: pouring things out. But fifteen minutes ago I was eating

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Speaker 2: an uncrustable in the car wash. So yeah, still me

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Speaker 2: didn't get me on my dress. Not so classy that

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Speaker 2: it changes you deep down exactly.

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Speaker 3: That's good. How are you? I'm good.

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Speaker 1: I'm still working on the same manicure I had two

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Speaker 1: weeks ago.

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Speaker 2: R These gel X their gel and they're like press

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Speaker 2: on like ly press on nails.

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Speaker 3: Oh okay, and you just suddenly feel like an adult.

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Speaker 3: All right.

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Speaker 1: I'm not that interested in being an adult though.

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Speaker 2: Looking like when people mistaking you for one, so they

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Speaker 2: treat you differently.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but I don't like suddenly I put those on

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Speaker 1: and people are asking me for tax advice. I don't

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Speaker 1: have time like that.

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Speaker 2: It's what I think, like if I had nice big tits,

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Speaker 2: like would be like if that's like what girls who

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Speaker 2: have nice big tits experience in life, you know.

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Speaker 1: Like bad news for you? What someone with medium big tits?

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Speaker 3: Come on, it's not that great. People give you a

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Speaker 3: little they're like a little nicer to you.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I mean I get into restaurants, I get always

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Speaker 1: get a table.

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Speaker 2: I never get a table at these A's what a

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Speaker 2: way to look at the world.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I've been ripped off with my small breasts.

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Speaker 2: It's the thing of like people who were pretty when

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Speaker 2: they're kids, You're like, you don't know what real life

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Speaker 2: like since they're faving kids've been pretty.

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Speaker 3: Yes, you don't know what it's like.

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Speaker 1: You've never been.

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Speaker 3: People don't treat you the way they treat everyone else.

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Speaker 1: You've never had somebody turn around and.

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Speaker 2: Go, oh you're here, right, oh my god, poor go

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Speaker 2: oh you're here. It's more like that yeah, or go

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Speaker 2: oh you're here.

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Speaker 3: Or go oh you're here.

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Speaker 1: Oh, oh you're here. You would to put the accident

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Speaker 1: on the oh you're here. It's scene study with carodin

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Speaker 1: Georgia and you're here scene Andrey.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I have a true crime podcast, Bone Valley, which wow, hey,

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Speaker 2: I just went for that.

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Speaker 1: Where does this take place?

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Speaker 3: Hell?

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Speaker 2: But that's the podcast's name, and then they have seasons.

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Speaker 2: This season I just started listening to I'd never heard

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Speaker 2: of it is season.

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Speaker 3: Five called The Devil's Quarry.

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Speaker 2: The podcast Bone Valley is about wrongful convictions and miscarriage

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Speaker 2: of justice in the US. So The Devil's Quarry season

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Speaker 2: five is about this twelve year old girl who was

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Speaker 2: murdered in the nineteen eighties and just the complete fuck

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Speaker 2: up that happened with this guy going to jail for

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Speaker 2: twenty years and you know all the things you hate

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Speaker 2: about that, but he figures a way to get himself out.

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Speaker 2: But then there's a psycho who actually probably killed her,

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Speaker 2: who isn't and so it's this kind of awful story,

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Speaker 2: but it's really interesting.

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Speaker 1: And important to tell.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great, Highly recommend it. Paul so Lataraf is

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Speaker 2: the host. He was a Rolling Stones contributor.

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Speaker 3: It's just good.

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Speaker 1: Rolling Stone the magazine, the magazine, No, the band.

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Speaker 3: He was in The Rolling Stones.

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Speaker 1: You said it plural.

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Speaker 3: It's not.

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Speaker 1: He's a Rolling Stones contributor. He's like, ooh ooh.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't even have told you if it was or

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Speaker 3: wasn't right. That's it.

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Speaker 1: What about you, uh scraping my brain for anything.

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Speaker 3: You don't have to have anything. We knew we did.

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Speaker 2: We talked about nails, talked about tits, We're talking about

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Speaker 2: true crime.

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Speaker 1: This is what ladies care about.

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Speaker 3: This is what you've come to expect.

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Speaker 1: And now how to get our bodily autonomy back. No,

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Speaker 1: don't be silly, God damn it. Okay, well let's get

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Speaker 1: into it.

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Speaker 2: Then. We have a podcast network called Exactly Right Media Correct.

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Speaker 3: Here are some highlights.

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Speaker 1: Explosive diarrhea Alert all cats.

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Speaker 3: Oh Jesus, Oh they're doing it. I love it. That's right.

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Speaker 1: This week on this podcast will kill you. Our experts,

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Speaker 1: Aaron and Aaron are both doctors and they're putting out

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Speaker 1: an emergency episode to talk about the current cyclospora outbreak.

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Speaker 1: That's right, the explosive diarrhea outbreak that is happening across

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Speaker 1: this nation and it is real. So Aerin and Aaron

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Speaker 1: break down what's happening, what you need to watch out for.

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Speaker 1: And they list off every single vegetable that you no

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Speaker 1: longer have to eat, have to eat, ellips that you

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Speaker 1: are not.

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Speaker 3: Allowed to eat.

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Speaker 2: And then over on Deer Movies, I Love You a Million,

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Speaker 2: Casey revisit the cult classic Romeo Michelle's High School Reunion.

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Speaker 3: I Gotta watch that again.

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Speaker 2: Plus Casey shares all the highlights from his recent twentieth

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Speaker 2: high school reunion themed out. Then on Disgraced Land, Jake

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Speaker 2: tells the story of Dolly parts Soga here how the

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Speaker 2: country icon narrowly avoided becoming the tragic heroine of one

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Speaker 2: of our own murder ballads. And then in merch Corner,

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Speaker 2: finally we have some brand new arrivals.

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Speaker 3: So exciting. Check out the new Call your Dad collection.

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Speaker 1: Oh pretty, goddamn great, especially tote. Look at this T shirt.

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Speaker 3: I love it.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna call your dad.

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Speaker 2: And then we have a pop socket pop socket and

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Speaker 2: a sticker.

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Speaker 1: Come on, you guys, something for everyone.

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Speaker 3: Check that out.

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Speaker 2: And we also have the MFM Collegiate unisex T shirt.

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Speaker 2: It is so I love that. So it's the red

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Speaker 2: flag unisex. Looks like you go to my favorite murder

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Speaker 2: university with a red flag. I love that one so

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Speaker 2: fucking much.

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Speaker 3: It's so cute. What size is that? I'm gonna give

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Speaker 3: an evince. This here is a medium amazing.

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Speaker 2: Both of those are designed by our graphic designer, Vanessa Lilac,

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Speaker 2: who's so talented.

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Speaker 3: And then also we have this was our tour.

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Speaker 1: It was like the design templet kind of.

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Speaker 2: Yeah with the panther, it's really fucking cool. It's designed

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Speaker 2: by Daphnes Savaine. It's inspired by our twenty twenty five

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Speaker 2: tour shirt. So check that out, man, that's so cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if you have fomo for missing out on the

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Speaker 1: tour in any way, you can still get a piece

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Speaker 1: of that art.

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Speaker 3: Action.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty great. Love it.

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Speaker 2: Head to the exactly Right store dot com to shop

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Speaker 2: for our merch, all of our merch. Now.

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Speaker 1: So this is a very special episode. This is a

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Speaker 1: themed episode right in honor of our newest limited series

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Speaker 1: podcast release of Royal Swindle.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 2: Royal Swindle is the unbelievable true story of two aussy

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Speaker 2: conwomen who charmed British high society. We love a good

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Speaker 2: con in a tale of greed, lies and spoiler alert horses.

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Speaker 2: The first two episodes are available right now wherever you

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Speaker 2: get your podcasts.

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Speaker 3: Please go check that out.

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Speaker 1: And to celebrate the kickoff of Royal Swindle, we will

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Speaker 1: now tell each other scam story.

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Speaker 2: Hell yeah, we love a scammer, we do, and there's

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Speaker 2: just so many. You go first, Okay, have you heard

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Speaker 2: of Roslin, New York? In Long Island?

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Speaker 1: Long Island, Long Island. I've heard of Long Island.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So there is a town called Roslin in New York,

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Speaker 2: a long eye. It's on the island's north shore in

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Speaker 2: Nassau County.

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Speaker 3: Which you've heard of. Past stories that have taken.

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Speaker 2: Us to Long Island that we've covered have been, of course,

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Speaker 2: the Gilga Beach Killer and the Amityville horror story. But

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Speaker 2: both those took place in towns that are on the

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Speaker 2: south shore and farther out on the island, where the

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Speaker 2: vibe is more maritime and maybe a little more blue collar.

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Speaker 3: Not today.

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Speaker 2: Roslin is more of a quintessential New York suburb if

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Speaker 2: you remember the suburban towns in uncut Gems and meet

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Speaker 2: the Fokkers or meet the parents, whatever. That's the kind

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Speaker 2: of place you can picture. So I looked it up,

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Speaker 2: of course, to see what famous people came from Roslin.

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Speaker 2: Michael Crichton, Oh, author Michael Crichton, a man named Arthur Agatstun.

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Speaker 3: Who was the author of The South Beach Diet.

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Speaker 1: Oh hell yeah.

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Speaker 2: And fashion designer Lily Pultzer was born in Roslyn.

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Speaker 3: New York.

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Speaker 1: Okay, we're getting the sense here. Yeah, there's a little

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Speaker 1: bit of carb cutting, some affluence. There's some ballet slippers

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Speaker 1: that match the little sundress you're wearing.

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Speaker 3: Right, has the same action.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of doctors and lawyers, the ones that

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Speaker 2: you know, commute to Manhattan. And there's one major reason

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Speaker 2: New York professionals choose to live in these towns, and

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Speaker 2: that is because they have great public schools. And these

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Speaker 2: people are obsessive about their children's education. It's something that

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Speaker 2: you and I don't understand, except I read it in

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Speaker 2: books about how cutthroat getting your children into schools and

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Speaker 2: good schools and public good schools.

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Speaker 1: Yes, right, And in LA I've had friends that are like,

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Speaker 1: the child is a year and a half and they're

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Speaker 1: already talking about what kindergarten they will do, totally, totally,

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Speaker 1: and then I just internally fall backwards out of the universe.

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Speaker 3: Same.

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Speaker 2: This is the story of a swindle that rocked one

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Speaker 2: of Long Island's most prestigious school systems, and as it unraveled,

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Speaker 2: it just got bigger and bigger. It's probably a testament

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Speaker 2: to the quality of the district and its ambitious students

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Speaker 2: that the story was first broken by a student at

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Speaker 2: this school in the school paper. Yes, and It's alumnus

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Speaker 2: later wrote and produced an HBO movie about it called

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Speaker 2: Bad Education, starring Alison Janny and Hugh Jackman, that was.

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Speaker 1: Based on a true story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'll say it's a bit of a stretch,

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Speaker 2: but they're such great actors.

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Speaker 3: We don't care.

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Speaker 1: You don't care.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the story of the Roslyn School District

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Speaker 2: embezzlement scandal. The main sources for the story are an

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Speaker 2: article in New York Magazine by Robert Kolker and reporting

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Speaker 2: from the New York Times and news Day, which is

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Speaker 2: Long Island's local paper. The rest of the sources can

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Speaker 2: be found in the show notes and I watched half

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Speaker 2: of Bad.

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Speaker 3: Education, but it's it's like they take liberties. It's not

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Speaker 3: even like ret true.

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Speaker 2: But it is a fun little you know flick okay,

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Speaker 2: who says that my mom.

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Speaker 1: It's a fun flack how would you know? You didn't

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Speaker 1: watch it?

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Speaker 3: I watched all of half of it. How there you?

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Speaker 3: How there are.

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Speaker 1: You that more? Get your big tits out of my face.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So it's the fall of two thousand and two,

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Speaker 2: remember that, and the school district has been rapidly ascending

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Speaker 2: towards the top of the top public districts in America.

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Speaker 2: For any non American listeners and people who don't have

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Speaker 2: children and don't understand this, American public schools are controlled

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Speaker 2: on three levels.

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Speaker 1: Lunchtime vibes, reset, cheerleading vibes, and cheerleaders.

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Speaker 2: So the first is very loosely by the federal government,

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Speaker 2: which can give or withhold some state funding and can

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Speaker 2: create policies that should protect students constitutional rights and rights

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Speaker 2: to education, or create policies that roll back these rights.

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Speaker 3: Guess which one happens more often number two.

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Speaker 2: And on the state level, there is much more oversight

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Speaker 2: into the curriculum, policies and standards. The state administras standardized tests,

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Speaker 2: and funding can be awarded or withheld based on these scores.

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Speaker 1: I think it'd be interesting to have a teacher here

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Speaker 1: right now to tell us their opinion.

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Speaker 3: It's abysmal.

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Speaker 2: The poor schools just never get the money. No, they

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Speaker 2: don't matter what the money that they need the most. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's a whole fucking episode.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to stop and lecture you every time I

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Speaker 1: have the opportunity.

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Speaker 3: Great, I barely graduated high school. However, it's your fault.

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Speaker 2: The vast majority of school funding comes from local taxes

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Speaker 2: on a district by district basis. This is why if

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Speaker 2: you look at a list of best performing public school

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Speaker 2: districts in America, they will, without fail, be some of

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Speaker 2: the country's richest suburban communities.

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Speaker 1: So they rich get richer.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: The escalator that they're automatically standing on goes all the

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Speaker 1: way to heaven exactly.

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Speaker 3: And I was educated at one of those too, so

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Speaker 3: I can't.

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Speaker 1: Did Janet move You're there like to be at a

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Speaker 1: good school.

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Speaker 2: Janet wouldn't let us move to la before I graduated

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Speaker 2: because it was a good school, which is like, I

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Speaker 2: appreciate that of her.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right to keep you there so that you could.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I probably would have gotten into more trouble if

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Speaker 2: I had gone into fair FAXI yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, can you imagine being in the city.

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Speaker 3: I have the most fun. Oh, yeah, appreciate that.

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Speaker 2: So good schools drive up home prices too, which I

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Speaker 2: hadn't considered, makes obvious sense, making these communities even more

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Speaker 2: inaccessible over time. And I did look at the Red

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Speaker 2: fin like house prices and I didn't see one under.

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Speaker 3: One point five million.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: And some of the higher ones were like six million.

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Speaker 3: So it's a.

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Speaker 2: Fancy area and they're very like. They all look a

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Speaker 2: little sopranos ish.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, kind of a little new new builds, a little octagonal,

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Speaker 1: maybe your central staircase.

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Speaker 2: Lots of tile instead of hardwood, you know, right, depresses me.

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Speaker 2: So a large chunk of the credit for the ever

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Speaker 2: improving quality of the Roslin School District is given to

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Speaker 2: the school superintendent, a ten year veteran of the district

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Speaker 2: in his late fifties named Frank Tasson.

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Speaker 3: And that's who Hugh Jackman plays. I'll show you a

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Speaker 3: real photo of him.

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Speaker 1: Actually, Oh, there's Frank.

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Speaker 2: He's making a face that's huge Jackman's character. You can

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Speaker 2: see it.

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Speaker 1: You can see a little Hugh Jackman in there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: He looks like a great dancer, this man, and proud,

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Speaker 1: so proud.

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Speaker 3: You know, his shoes are nice. Look at that. How hot.

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Speaker 1: That cameraman is back here.

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Speaker 3: Did you kind of suck?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it a little bit, looks like Ryan Gosling. He

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Speaker 1: does faking being the cameraman.

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Speaker 3: Hey are you the cameraman? He looks like Ryan Gosling.

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Speaker 1: Right in, and then that journalist is like, excuse me,

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Speaker 1: the cameraman's my boyfriend, right, that's why we move and

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Speaker 1: acts like sorry, sorry, sorry guys.

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Speaker 2: Over the years, Frank has spearheaded ambitious projects, so he

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Speaker 2: is a really good superintendent.

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Speaker 3: I want to say Super Nintendo.

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Speaker 2: Because in the Simpsons, I want Super Nintendo Chalmers.

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Speaker 1: He's the best Super Nintendo Chalmers that anyone's ask But

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Speaker 1: he is really good.

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Speaker 2: He's spearheaded ambitious projects like elementary school foreign language classes

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Speaker 2: and high school community service requirements, which is pretty great.

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Speaker 2: That makes everyone proud of the district. And the hard

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Speaker 2: stats are always improving too. Every year the school's average

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Speaker 2: SAT scores go up and the list of college acceptances

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Speaker 2: becomes more and more impressive. And Frank spear heads a

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Speaker 2: lot of community outreach as well, involving Roslin's senior citizens

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Speaker 2: in school events to like help do old people things,

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Speaker 2: tell stories probably.

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Speaker 3: But oftentimes those are plain about children today.

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Speaker 2: Yes, oftentimes though these events happened shortly before the town

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Speaker 2: budget votes, but like he's still doing it right. Frank

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Speaker 2: is a former English teacher who's still gives public lectures

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Speaker 2: on classic literature. He is beloved. He's also a flashy dresser.

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Speaker 2: Brooks Brothers suits and he.

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Speaker 1: Drives it seemed like an incredibly flashy dresser. He is

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Speaker 1: sure he drives a Mercedes. He makes around two hundred

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Speaker 1: and fifty thousand a year.

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Speaker 2: So that was in two thousand and two, so in

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Speaker 2: today's money, seven fifty four sixty.

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Speaker 3: Six, but close, I always give too lot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was like, you're never gonna believe this, Like no, no,

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Speaker 2: So he makes, you know, two fifty a year, but

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Speaker 2: he has no kids, So the fact that he spends

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Speaker 2: a lot of money and has nice things seems.

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Speaker 3: Like it's within his budget.

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Speaker 2: People don't seem to know a ton about Frank's personal life.

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Speaker 2: He has on his desk an old timey wedding photo

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Speaker 2: like in the movie Bad Education. It looks like it's

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Speaker 2: from the eighties, maybe of a woman in a wedding dress,

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Speaker 2: and he says that was his wife, who tragically died

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Speaker 2: of cancer many years earlier keeps his ring on in

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Speaker 2: the movie.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if it's true.

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Speaker 2: People know he lives in Manhattan in a rent stabilized building,

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Speaker 2: so that's more of a reason for them not to

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Speaker 2: question his seems like he's spending a lot.

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Speaker 1: For one moment, I was like, I wish this story

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Speaker 1: was about how that building got rent stabilized and like

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Speaker 1: how much it costs and who lives there, because that

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Speaker 1: idea that in like modern day even La or New York.

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Speaker 3: That you could be grandfathered in at some point.

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Speaker 1: Yeah right, And you're like, oh, I pay fifteen hundred

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Speaker 1: for my three and two.

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Speaker 2: My old place that we used to record at was

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Speaker 2: like twelve fifty. It's insane. God, I know that's not

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Speaker 2: what this story is.

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Speaker 3: Sorry, that's next week. That's your story.

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Speaker 2: So other than this one mystery about his private life,

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Speaker 2: which he doesn't discuss much, Frank is outgoing. He's friendly.

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Speaker 2: This is probably why the school board is inclined to

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Speaker 2: follow his lead. In two thousand and two, when it

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Speaker 2: comes out that his assistant superintendence for business, the person

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Speaker 2: who signs the checks for the district, a woman named

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Speaker 2: Pam Gluckin, has been stealing money from the district. So

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Speaker 2: Alison Janny is who plays her, And here is what

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Speaker 2: she actually looks like, Pam. She looks like a woman

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Speaker 2: you'd see in the office of your.

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Speaker 1: School, absolutely right, a woman who literally those readers are

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Speaker 1: glued to the end of her nose like that.

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Speaker 2: And she's always rushing around, and she always smells like

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Speaker 2: coffee and you.

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Speaker 1: Know, but she knows everyone's name. She knows everyone's mom's name.

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Speaker 1: She's always busy, she knows exactly what's.

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Speaker 2: Going she knows everyone's name. Yes, she does exactly. They

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Speaker 2: show that in this movie.

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Speaker 3: So she's well liked. She's outgoing.

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Speaker 2: She often jokes about how hard she's working and how

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Speaker 2: late she stays. But it seems like it's true. She

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Speaker 2: is kind of like his right hand and knows everything.

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Speaker 2: And while she makes decent money as a high up

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Speaker 2: administrator in a wealthy district, it's maybe a little suspicious

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Speaker 2: with her that she can afford to have three homes,

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Speaker 2: one in Belmore, which is a working class Long Island town,

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Speaker 2: one in Florida, and one in the Hampton's But she

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Speaker 2: also has boats.

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Speaker 3: She takes lavish vacations. She has fancy cars and nice jewelry,

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Speaker 3: so it's a little more us.

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Speaker 1: It's just funny to me.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it's her husband who makes the money, you know,

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Speaker 2: Like but yeah, she could have had a rich hand

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Speaker 2: and credit credit.

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Speaker 1: She's just really good at paying off her credit card

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Speaker 1: every night.

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Speaker 3: Or bad, we don't know, or really bad.

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Speaker 1: But my thing is, why can't people just not spend

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Speaker 1: the money just for a little.

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Speaker 3: Totally keep it on the low profile.

402
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Speaker 1: Just go to CVS and treat yourself once a month.

403
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Speaker 3: Listen to us tell you how to cheat.

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00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,159
Speaker 2: Like, like I knew when I was nineteen, if I

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Speaker 2: stole clothes from the Melrose clothing store I was working at,

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Speaker 2: don't wear them to work.

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Speaker 1: Yes, you know, and pick your one thing and then

408
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Speaker 1: go for three years. But like, yeah, at least cover

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Speaker 1: your tracks in some way.

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Speaker 3: But that I do.

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Speaker 1: It's like, hey, you want to go try my ski? Dude,

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Speaker 1: let's go out this right again.

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Speaker 2: They're like, more, come over, I'm having a party at

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Speaker 2: my Hampton's house. Disclaimer I never stole any clothes from

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Speaker 2: the Melrose.

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Speaker 1: Disclaimer I never stole twenty dollars from my cafe job

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Speaker 1: and justified it by saying everyone's mean to me.

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Speaker 3: Never happened, and statute of limitations.

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Speaker 1: Can't prove it. Yep, didn't happen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a little suspicious, but no one really bats

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Speaker 2: an eye at this because a lot of Rosalind families

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Speaker 2: have homes in other locations.

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Speaker 3: They don't ask questions.

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Speaker 2: That said, it's still a shock to everyone when the

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Speaker 2: board realizes that Pam has been using a district credit

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Speaker 2: card make personal purchases trackable, so trackable, but she's the

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Speaker 2: one who does the tracking or like the approving.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so two sets of eyes.

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Speaker 2: It seems like I'm sure she started slow and then

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Speaker 2: knew she was never going to get caught and just

431
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Speaker 2: kind of went, you're all in at that point, whether

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Speaker 2: for ten dollars or a million dollars, you're going to

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Speaker 2: get fired and get it, get caught, so you might

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Speaker 2: as well.

435
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Speaker 3: Do the million.

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Speaker 1: So then you're like, we're going on vacation.

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Speaker 3: Totally.

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Speaker 1: That just makes me think of the early days when

439
00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,359
Speaker 1: you and I were sharing like American Express cards, and

440
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Speaker 1: then if I would do the thing where suddenly I

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Speaker 1: don't have my card on me and I would just

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Speaker 1: text you and be like I just bought eighty dollars

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Speaker 1: worth of flipliner at CVS, just so you know, before

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Speaker 1: when we were still handling it.

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Speaker 3: I know, so Gad, I believed you every time.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's true. I know.

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Speaker 3: That's why it's a good thing. I believed you. I

448
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Speaker 3: know it is, or I'd be like a six.

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00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:52,560
Speaker 2: You'd text me like I just spent six twenty five

450
00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:54,440
Speaker 2: at Chipotle and I didn't have my card, so.

451
00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,040
Speaker 3: Us darker, Yes, like, okay, did it all. They don't

452
00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:57,840
Speaker 3: have to pay it back.

453
00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:00,240
Speaker 1: I know, but it's but it's also that kind of

454
00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,639
Speaker 1: thing where I think that at least we always had that. Yeah,

455
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,639
Speaker 1: we're just like, you're not gonna steal money me totally,

456
00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:07,600
Speaker 1: that's not.

457
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,959
Speaker 3: How you are. Yeah, that's like very important in a partnership.

458
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,080
Speaker 1: Here comes the big reveal. Actually, wait, I do owe you.

459
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:17,920
Speaker 1: Didn't you give me one hundred dollars in cash one time?

460
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:20,200
Speaker 3: Recently? I gave you.

461
00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:22,879
Speaker 2: Twenty dollars because I didn't have a five and said

462
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,000
Speaker 2: you have probably done this for me many times in

463
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:25,439
Speaker 2: the past.

464
00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:26,040
Speaker 3: We're even.

465
00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,199
Speaker 1: So we're even, we're absolutely even. You heard it here, folks.

466
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,679
Speaker 2: That is provable, Okay, district credit card one of those

467
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:38,200
Speaker 2: credit card purchases. Finally, raises the alarm because someone used

468
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,040
Speaker 2: it to buy a bunch of renovation supplies at a

469
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,560
Speaker 2: few home depots around Long Island outside of Roslin.

470
00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:46,800
Speaker 3: The clerk, okay, here's the snitch.

471
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,760
Speaker 2: Clerk at a home depot in a town called Selden,

472
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,159
Speaker 2: which is about thirty five miles east of Roslin. And

473
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,360
Speaker 2: everyone knows everyone in Long Island. It seems like you're

474
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:56,920
Speaker 2: not gonna get away with shit. People know whose kids

475
00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,000
Speaker 2: you are, people know whose cousin you are. Like where

476
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:01,560
Speaker 2: you're supposed to be, where you're not supposed to be.

477
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:03,800
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, you remember Vicky Ernst, one of the producers

478
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,360
Speaker 1: on our TV shows. Yeah, Vicki's from Long Island, right,

479
00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:08,280
Speaker 1: and she knows every single person on her block. And

480
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,760
Speaker 1: anytime she sees anybody like, it's about community.

481
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,200
Speaker 3: Right, gossip, good, bad, everything.

482
00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:15,879
Speaker 1: You're in it, you're in it for life.

483
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:20,800
Speaker 2: So basically, the snitch, I'm not putting him down. Good

484
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,440
Speaker 2: for him, this person, this person isn't call him snitch.

485
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,040
Speaker 3: Is that what you're saying? Well, I don't know, You're right.

486
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,760
Speaker 2: He recognized the person who is using the credit card

487
00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,520
Speaker 2: as Pam's son, and.

488
00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:31,760
Speaker 3: She's like, that's weird.

489
00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:34,920
Speaker 2: He is a contractor, But why was he buying supplies

490
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:39,040
Speaker 2: for the Roslin School district on their card but not

491
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,400
Speaker 2: at the home people owned Roslin in a different town.

492
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,800
Speaker 2: And why did those supplies get delivered to a home

493
00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,960
Speaker 2: in the Hampton's and not to the Roslin School Red Flag,

494
00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:51,719
Speaker 2: red Flae. Yeah, and like the son's being lazy at

495
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:53,520
Speaker 2: this point in the movie, she like beats the shit

496
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:54,399
Speaker 2: out of him for doing that.

497
00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,600
Speaker 3: It's very Hell's and Jenny's so good, She's so good.

498
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,720
Speaker 2: So this clerk contacts the school board and tells them

499
00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,000
Speaker 2: what happened. When the school's auditor finishes his work, just

500
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,960
Speaker 2: looking into it, he finds that two hundred and fifty

501
00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,560
Speaker 2: thousand dollars have been stolen in today's money.

502
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,920
Speaker 1: Two hundred and fifty and this was two thousand and three.

503
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 3: Two thousand and two and two.

504
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:17,639
Speaker 2: You want to know how much the other one was, Oh,

505
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,840
Speaker 2: it was the same, It was the same amount. Sixty six, Okay,

506
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,400
Speaker 2: so today's money about four sixty six. The board convenes

507
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,840
Speaker 2: in a meeting with Frank our guy to figure out

508
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,200
Speaker 2: the next steps. They're all just so pissed off and upset,

509
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,720
Speaker 2: and he surprises all of them by saying, we shouldn't

510
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 2: turn her in, we shouldn't go to the DA, we

511
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:41,120
Speaker 2: shouldn't press charges. Let's not raise the alarms. Instead, let's

512
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:45,840
Speaker 2: let her resign quietly and will inform the state licensing

513
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,240
Speaker 2: board so they revoke her school administration licenses. He doesn't

514
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 2: want to totally throw the book at her. He points

515
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:54,879
Speaker 2: out that if Pam is prosecuted, the district will have

516
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,719
Speaker 2: to keep paying her until the case is settled, and

517
00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 2: possibly more importantly, it'll make the disc look really bad

518
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,840
Speaker 2: when it becomes a huge news story. It will make

519
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,400
Speaker 2: the school budget harder to pass. But if she resigns

520
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,440
Speaker 2: and promises to pay back the money, the district will

521
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,240
Speaker 2: take less of a financial hit, or really no hit

522
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,120
Speaker 2: at all if she pays it back. Basically, they want

523
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,760
Speaker 2: to avoid scandal. They look really good. They also were like,

524
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,840
Speaker 2: if colleges see Roslin School District on applications and know

525
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 2: that it is like a tarnish school, it's going to

526
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,920
Speaker 2: affect that. Yeah, and they don't want that to happen.

527
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,440
Speaker 2: They've worked so hard. It's only two hundre fifty thousand dollars.

528
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 3: Let's let her go.

529
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 1: Yeah makes sense, I mean, and that is the kind

530
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 1: of definition these days feels like of corruption in that way,

531
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,960
Speaker 1: because that's exactly what happened with doctor death, where it's like,

532
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 1: we can't the insurance won't bring this against these doctors

533
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 1: because it's so small and it ends everything, And it's

534
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,000
Speaker 1: like that kind of thinking of like how bad is

535
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:52,239
Speaker 1: a thing to be a career ender or a reputation.

536
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,679
Speaker 2: You don't hurting and killing people would be the limit.

537
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 2: But guess what it's not ever, it's no money.

538
00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:58,199
Speaker 1: It's money.

539
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:00,920
Speaker 2: So the board takes Frank up on this idea, and

540
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 2: Pam plays ball and she goes quietly. About a year

541
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 2: and a half pass without incident, and in that time period,

542
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,919
Speaker 2: Roslin has been ranked by Wall Street Journal as the

543
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,920
Speaker 2: sixth best school district in the nation, which in today's

544
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,160
Speaker 2: best school districts something they know and then two exactly

545
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 2: and the parents, school board, and administration they're so thrilled

546
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:25,400
Speaker 2: about this, basically like Brent can't do anything wrong to them.

547
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,919
Speaker 2: Every Rosalind homeowner is also thrilled, since more demand for

548
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 2: the school system means higher home prices. Everyone's happy with him.

549
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,919
Speaker 1: It's all frothing. But the camera cuts back to that

550
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,439
Speaker 1: wedding picture on his desk for me.

551
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,439
Speaker 2: Right then it all comes crashing down, you're right. In

552
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,439
Speaker 2: February of two thousand and four, an anonymous letter is

553
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,919
Speaker 2: sent to the members of the school board, some school administrators,

554
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 2: the district attorney, and several local newspapers. So we never

555
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 2: find out who sent.

556
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 3: This letter, but they send it to everybody, everybody.

557
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 2: It claims that Pam Gluckin had stolen much more than

558
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 2: two hundred fifty thousand dollars that the school's auditor had

559
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 2: initially reported, which some of these people didn't know about

560
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,120
Speaker 2: that at all, and that Frank both knew about it

561
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 2: and had embezzled funds himself. The letter says, quote, we

562
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 2: believe that doctor Frank Tossone participated in this embezzlement scandal

563
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 2: so as to support his lavish lifestyle. With the help

564
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 2: of miss Gluckin, he submitted his personal credit card statements,

565
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 2: bills for personal vacations and trips, and various household bills

566
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 2: and included them in the cover up end. Quote I

567
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 2: just realized I don't have my glasses on there.

568
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 1: Now you can read You're like the sinking of the Titanic.

569
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 2: Oh shit, this is blank, So it gets sent to

570
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 2: all these people. But Frank gets a lucky break because

571
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 2: one of the letters is returned to sender. But for

572
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,640
Speaker 2: some reason, whoever sent the letter used the district office

573
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,199
Speaker 2: as its return address, so he got a hold of

574
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 2: a copy of it, meaning, I wonder, it's probably someone

575
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 2: in that school who sent it in the first place, right,

576
00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 2: like a teacher or someone else in the office.

577
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 1: Right, because they I would need to maybe access that

578
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,679
Speaker 1: mail slot if there was mail back, right.

579
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 3: Like, why would they put it back there? Exactly?

580
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 2: So it winds up on Frank's stask. He freaks out,

581
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 2: launches into a preamptive strike. He calls a meeting with

582
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 2: the representatives from every part of the school staff and

583
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 2: the PTA to present the letter and say that the

584
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 2: allegations are not true, but that he's going to call

585
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 2: back the auditor to go through the finances and clear

586
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 2: it all up. He's going to look through every single

587
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 2: little thing. At first, people go along with this and

588
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,199
Speaker 2: praise him for being so forthcoming. But at the end

589
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 2: of the month, an editor for the school newspaper, so

590
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 2: a student, the senior girl, yes name Rebecca Rombaum, which

591
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 2: I could use that name in good health.

592
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 3: It's so cool.

593
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 2: She gets a copy of the letter somehow and writes

594
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 2: an article in the school paper about it.

595
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,120
Speaker 1: This is one of she's like, yeah, sitting down, Kirk Kirk,

596
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: revenge is mine.

597
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and I looked her up and I'm like,

598
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 2: she'd better be like a famous journalist now. And I

599
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 2: don't know if she might for a school district. I

600
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 2: can't tell what she does, but she lay as low.

601
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 1: She's a genius and just out there amongst the people.

602
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 2: It runs in the paper's March issue. In the article,

603
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 2: she gets a quote from Frank explaining why he didn't

604
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,400
Speaker 2: come forward with the allegations against Pam when the first

605
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 2: she's fucking going for it.

606
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 1: She's kind of on the record. Yeah, and she was

607
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 1: wearing a wire when she asked this question.

608
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 2: Right, He says, quote, I think their reputation at the

609
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 2: school district was at stake end quote, and that's why

610
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 2: he didn't come forward. Rebecca later writes to The New

611
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 2: York Times that the student response to the article was underwhelming,

612
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,120
Speaker 2: because of course it is. They don't give a shit

613
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 2: about school paper. Did you ever read your school paper?

614
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 2: We didn't have one, but guess you did. You just

615
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,160
Speaker 2: didn't know it was no one was aware.

616
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 1: But also just that kind of thing of like to

617
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 1: have lived as the girl that always thought she was

618
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 1: doing like justice and like fighting the good fight, and

619
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:48,880
Speaker 1: then turning around and no one's ever behind you.

620
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,880
Speaker 3: You're just like mm hmm, Okay, that sounds right, yeah,

621
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 3: she says quote.

622
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 2: During school that day, I watched for reactions to the story,

623
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 2: but the students as a whole were not as receptive

624
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 2: as I had expected. We don't have formal circulation numbers,

625
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 2: but by the number of papers still lying around school

626
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, I would say that

627
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 2: our April Fool's Day issue was much more widely read

628
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 2: because the kids don't give a shit about a fucking.

629
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 1: They see embezzlement and they're like, that's adult problem totally.

630
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 1: That's like we don't balance the budget.

631
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:17,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, my day's going fine.

632
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 1: But I think if we had written the headline more

633
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 1: of like, do you still want that pizza shape like

634
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 1: a square? Well, guess what the embezzlement issue is. That's

635
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 1: tay to get away from you.

636
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 3: That's right, and this is no April Fools.

637
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 2: There was interest, however, at the next Board of Education

638
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 2: meeting because at least a few issues of that newspaper

639
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 2: had made it home to parents, so the parents were

640
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 2: interested in the embezzlement.

641
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 1: It turns around it's Walter Cronkite is reading this student newspaper.

642
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's the day we go.

643
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 2: It's only after this meeting with the Board of Education

644
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 2: and after Rebecca's article that News Day, Long Island's local

645
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 2: paper picks up the story, and that's when everything starts

646
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 2: to fall apart for Brink. Over the next few months,

647
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 2: the DA, the schools have been stration, and Newsday are

648
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 2: all combing through the school's expenses and running every last

649
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 2: receipt down, and very quickly, two things become apparent. Pam

650
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 2: had stolen far more than two hundred and fifty thousand dollars,

651
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,879
Speaker 2: and there's just no denying that Frank had also stolen

652
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 2: money and was involved. Investigators find multiple kinds of questionable expenses.

653
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 2: There are real payments to vendors, but the amounts these

654
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 2: vendors were billed and received is far less than had

655
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 2: been documented, Meaning they're like, we've paid this vendor five

656
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 2: hundred dollars and the vendors like, we only asked for

657
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 2: two hundred and we only got two hundred dollars, you

658
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 2: know what I mean? Yeah, boot pocket the rest beep,

659
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 2: Let's go to Red Lobster exactly. There are a linemens

660
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 2: that have never been questioned before, but now look very

661
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 2: suspicious once they start actually looking. The district had paid

662
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 2: for two trips to London. Okay, And here's what we

663
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 2: were talking about, like bee, chill and don't be flashy.

664
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 3: On the concord.

665
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 1: Just that first class, first class is amazing. It's amazing,

666
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: plain old.

667
00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 3: One trans insanely expensive.

668
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 2: One trip on the Concorde for it was twenty grand

669
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 2: and another was thirty grand.

670
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: Bro because she had to get there fast.

671
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 3: I think it's him.

672
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: Oh that's what he did.

673
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, good lord, Yeah, like Pallo or pla.

674
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: Have you never been to Las Vegas if.

675
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 2: You've never liked And the district had paid for multiple

676
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 2: trips to Las Vegas, so good job, some for actual

677
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 2: conferences and some seemingly just for fun. And he'd like,

678
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 2: bring a bunch of the school board members. So I

679
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 2: don't think we're aware of what was happening. He had

680
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 2: used over fifty six thousand dollars in school money to

681
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 2: pay for treatments. Out of Manhattan weight loss clinic.

682
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 3: Oh, just don't do that.

683
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 1: Not when the South Beach dives right there.

684
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 3: Exactly.

685
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 2: Come on, in today's money, fifty six thousand, a little

686
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 2: more would have been more than do you want a

687
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 2: three one hundred thousand. Someday we're gonna get it again

688
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 2: him in ten years, we're both gonna do it again. Well,

689
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 2: this is going on. Frank just keeps going out of

690
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 2: town while they're looking into it. He's just like, I'm

691
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 2: out this week, I'm out this.

692
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 1: Week, I'm out this week. He's sprained my ankle.

693
00:29:58,040 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 3: Exactly, I sprained my everything.

694
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 2: He he spends March in April going to Las Vegas,

695
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 2: Puerto Rico, then California, Florida, and Vegas again. Every time

696
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 2: a new weird charge is found, Frank isn't around to

697
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 2: explain or discuss it.

698
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 3: Then there are.

699
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 2: Sketchy charges from companies that appear to not exist or

700
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 2: be very very sketchy. So in early June, a school

701
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 2: administrator realizes that over the years, the school has paid

702
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 2: close to eight hundred thousand dollars to a company called

703
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 2: word Power, which purports to make pamphlets. So eight hundred

704
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 2: thousand on.

705
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: Those real good pamphlets though, nice stock, real shiny and slick.

706
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, those ones. In today's money, that would be

707
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 2: one point five million. This is a lot of money

708
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 2: for pamphlets, scamphlets, that's right. Sorry, this latte is not

709
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 2: helping me. Yeah, I was coke that I'm drinking, that

710
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 2: I'm snorting. But the weirder thing is that the company

711
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 2: is headquartered. This pamphlet company is headquartered from an apartment

712
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 2: in Manhattan, Frank's address. The company's CEO is listed as

713
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 2: a man named Steven, and it becomes clear over the

714
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 2: course of the investigation that he and Frank lived together

715
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 2: at the same time and right around the same point

716
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 2: in the investigations, investigators noticed that Frank had purchased a

717
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 2: house in Las Vegas with another man, this one a

718
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 2: good bit younger than him. This man investigators also noticed

719
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 2: that Frank had sent multiple FedEx shipments on the district's account,

720
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 2: meaning like you just went and printed up a FedEx,

721
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 2: which we've all stolen a fucking stamp or two from work.

722
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 1: It's like the FedEx account at work is the place

723
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: where you can get a little liberal. You can take

724
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: some liberties because it's already going out. It's all business.

725
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 3: But now they know what address it was sent to.

726
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you hadn't done that, they wouldn't have been

727
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 2: able to track the address.

728
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: And didn't they use the money to buy the house

729
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:45,719
Speaker 1: in Vegas?

730
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 2: I don't know about that, but probably, like it's all

731
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 2: in the mix, yeah, exactly. So he sent multiple fed

732
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 2: Ex shipments to this address in Las Vegas.

733
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 3: It's never uncovered what.

734
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 2: Was in these shipments. God, I wish I could see.

735
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 2: Seems like the working hypothesis is that it might have.

736
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 3: Been just cash, just a ton of posting in cash.

737
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 2: And he's like in the movie, it's not true, but

738
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 2: they show the younger man as an ex student of

739
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 2: Frank's who's also an exotic dancer. I think that part

740
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 2: was correct at some point, but it's not true. So

741
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 2: he could have been like laundering cash Las Vegas. There's

742
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 2: no better place. Yes, everyone just remember that.

743
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 1: And the idea that you just like fill up a

744
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: box with some band totally go for it totally.

745
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 2: So now it's apparent that Frank has been in romantic

746
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 2: relationships with men. That's the thing that he had been

747
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 2: keeping from everyone. And Roslind's a pretty liberal town. So

748
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 2: people are mostly a little sad that Frank felt that

749
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 2: he had to hide his sexuality. But at the same time,

750
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 2: it's two thousand and four and a high ranking, openly

751
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 2: gay school administrator is not common, and I'm sure some

752
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 2: parents would have clutched their pearls.

753
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 3: Oh yeah.

754
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 2: Frank will later say that he and Steven, his partner

755
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 2: who lives at his Manhattan house, had an open relationship.

756
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 2: Steven knew about the other man in Las Vegas, like,

757
00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 2: he wasn't being deceitful in that sense.

758
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: Do you believe that I do?

759
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 3: Yeah? Why not? I I don't know. I don't hate him, right, he.

760
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 2: Made some really stupid decisions and trapped himself, and we've

761
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 2: all made stupid decisions and luckily we've gotten away with

762
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 2: a lot of them.

763
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it would be a much more infuriating

764
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 1: story if he was stealing from kids from low income areas. Right,

765
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: But it's just like you're basically skimming the cream off

766
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 1: of the cream of the crowd.

767
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 2: Well you know what, And they kind of hint at

768
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 2: this in the show, where you know, like all the

769
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 2: parents of the students that he's helping to succeed in

770
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 2: their lives and get into good college and have good

771
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 2: careers and get paid. Well, are making so much fucking money?

772
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 2: They have so much money. Yeah, meanwhile, he's being paid

773
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 2: two fifty a year, and eventually that doesn't seem like

774
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 2: it's fair to him, right, so he just starts skimming,

775
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 2: starts taking a little where it's like they won't even

776
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 2: miss it because they're so fucking wealthy. Like, I get

777
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 2: how that mindset could happen to someone.

778
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, it's easy to rationalize things like that because

779
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 1: all you have to do is say I'm being ripped off,

780
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: and then you can do kind of anything you want.

781
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 2: It's how dare you that rationalizes it. And then suddenly

782
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 2: how dare you?

783
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,240
Speaker 1: Builds you a bridge to free money in Las Vegas?

784
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 3: Amen? Amen.

785
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:15,919
Speaker 2: So, when all these revelations finally come out in early

786
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 2: June of two thousand and four, Frank resigns. When all

787
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 2: is said and done, it appears that between Frank and

788
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 2: Pam there's like six people total who end up kind

789
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 2: of being implicated in this, including Frank and Pam, Around

790
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 2: eleven point two million dollars has been stolen from.

791
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:31,760
Speaker 3: The school district.

792
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 1: Fucking a today's money eleven point two. I'm gonna go

793
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 1: ahead and stick that right into the area of one

794
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 1: hundred and eighty five thousand.

795
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 3: Twenty million. You just went the wrong way, I'd to say.

796
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 1: As I was talking, I started to panic and I

797
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 1: forgot what the base number was.

798
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:49,320
Speaker 3: Twenty million.

799
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, them, there's so much pressure.

800
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 3: I know. I hate it. I hate it, but we

801
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 3: got to give them what they love.

802
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: We got to this is what people come here for,

803
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 1: that's right.

804
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 2: So almost twenty million. Fuck, they just fucking went for it.

805
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 2: And my sister has to buy crans every year herself.

806
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 3: Right exactly.

807
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this makes it the largest embezzlement from a

808
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 2: school district in American history.

809
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 3: So if you're gonna go.

810
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: Big kids, go to Vegas.

811
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 2: In all, six people, including a son and a niece

812
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 2: of Pam Gluckin and the domestic partner of Frank Tissone,

813
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:27,240
Speaker 2: plead guilty in connection with the thefts from the Roslin schools.

814
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 2: They're actually the maximum they could have received was fifteen

815
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,720
Speaker 2: to twenty years for that god, But in two thousand

816
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,839
Speaker 2: and six, Frank Whop pleads guilty to stealing about two

817
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 2: point two million is sentenced to four to twelve years

818
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,879
Speaker 2: in prison. He's released for good behavior in twenty ten.

819
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 2: Due to a loophole in the New York State pension law.

820
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 2: He still collects one hundred and seventy three thousand, four

821
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 2: hundred and ninety five dollars and four cents a year.

822
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: Holy shit. Uh huh, So he basically is still fully

823
00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: employed with a great.

824
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,720
Speaker 2: Job and hopefully still his rent control department. Oh dude,

825
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 2: and he'll get that money.

826
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:04,800
Speaker 3: For the rest of his life.

827
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 2: Loopholes, he does repay the district the entire two point

828
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 2: two million.

829
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,280
Speaker 3: Oh wow. Yeah, which you know it's more than that though.

830
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 3: There's no way they.

831
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 2: Got it that close, right, Yeah, yeah, all the money

832
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 2: that they couldn't track down. I'm sure it's millions and

833
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,919
Speaker 2: millions more. Pam Gluckham admits to stealing four point three

834
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 2: million and is sentenced to three to nine years in prison.

835
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,720
Speaker 2: She ends up serving five. As of twenty and eleven,

836
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 2: she had repaid about half the money she had stolen.

837
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 2: I can't track her down at all. I saw one

838
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 2: article that said she passed away in twenty seventeen, another

839
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,720
Speaker 2: that she worked in Manhattan somewhere. If she's still alive,

840
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 2: she's probably paid back more since twenty and eleven, but

841
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 2: I can't track her down. In the years since, all

842
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 2: over Long Island school districts have had a much harder

843
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,959
Speaker 2: time getting residents to pass their budgets. Not Surprisingly, while

844
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 2: towns used to faithfully vote yes on school budgets year

845
00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 2: after year, voters have been less likely to do so

846
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 2: in the aftermath of the scandal. After all, the school

847
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 2: district now seems to do just fine using significantly less

848
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 2: than it's allotted funds. So if someone not skimming off

849
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 2: the top, they don't need as much money. Yeah, and

850
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 2: they're calling it the Rosalin effect.

851
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,399
Speaker 1: Well, and also, can't we just take that and put

852
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 1: it back down into where it is truly and desperately needed, right.

853
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:24,399
Speaker 3: You'd hope one would.

854
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 2: The author of the anonymous letter that led to Frank's

855
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 2: undoing has never been identified. And that is the story

856
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,280
Speaker 2: of the Roslin School embezzlement scandal.

857
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 1: Wow, well done, thank you. Yeah, I've never heard of that.

858
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: I never saw that.

859
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 3: That education.

860
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 1: I just really the idea of just like when you

861
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 1: get away with something a little bit, and then you

862
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,359
Speaker 1: keep going to the point where you're handing out cards

863
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: and doing all those things like.

864
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 2: Multiple members of her family had like annex or whatever cards.

865
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 1: It's just you're living in a fantasy world totally, and

866
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 1: then it ends totally.

867
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 2: If you want to watch Hugh Jackman make out with

868
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 2: a really cute twink, definitely watch that.

869
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:02,240
Speaker 3: Education.

870
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 1: Okay, So mine begins in nineteen oh two.

871
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 3: Oh, you know when that was nineteen oh two.

872
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 1: Turn it's centrue oh and in New York City, so

873
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 1: it's the Gilded Age. There's a well dressed woman in

874
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,800
Speaker 1: her forties sitting in the lobby of a luxury hotel

875
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: in Manhattan. She scans the ritzy crowd until she sees

876
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,879
Speaker 1: the man she's looking for. He's a lawyer and also

877
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 1: a dear friend of her husband's from back home in Cleveland, Ohio.

878
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 1: His name is James Dylan. The woman pretends she doesn't

879
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 1: see James sitting there alone, but as she walks past him,

880
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: she brushes up against his arm. He looks up. He's

881
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 1: pleasantly surprised by seeing a familiar face. Oh, it's the

882
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,399
Speaker 1: lady from back home, my friend's wife. He asks her

883
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 1: what she's doing in New York. She explains that she's

884
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 1: here for a private family matter and she cannot speak

885
00:38:55,960 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 1: anymore on the topic. Please, but this, Yes, you may

886
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: not ask many more questions, but can I have a

887
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 1: ride in your carriage to my father's house?

888
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 3: Okay?

889
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: So he was like, of course. They set off in

890
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: his carriage and they arrive at a towering Fifth Avenue mansion.

891
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 1: James watches as she hops out of the carriage, knocks

892
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 1: on the mansion's front door, and goes inside.

893
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 3: He's shocked.

894
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 1: Of course, the woman's husband has never let on that

895
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 1: his wife comes from so much money, so he waits

896
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:28,840
Speaker 1: there for her, which made me laugh when I realized

897
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:30,879
Speaker 1: that was what was happening. So she goes in does

898
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 1: her business. When she comes back out about a half

899
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: an hour later, she's carrying a large envelope under her arm.

900
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 1: She gets back into the carriage, she reminds James this

901
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 1: is a private family matter and she cannot tell him

902
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:46,359
Speaker 1: anything that's going on. Got it, touts, I can't show

903
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,839
Speaker 1: you what's in this envelope. Ask but then she lets

904
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: it slip. Okay, she suddenly says, listen, the reason I'm

905
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: here on this family business is because I am the

906
00:39:55,239 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: illegitimate daughter of steel magnate Andrew Carnegie. Oh shit, and

907
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: I've just gone into his house and collected this envelope,

908
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,879
Speaker 1: which is all the paperwork proving that he has given

909
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: me a small fortune. Take a little peaky poo at this,

910
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 1: calm down and she shows him. Okay, And of course

911
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: James is shocked, but he totally buys it. And he's

912
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: not the only one who does the story. This woman

913
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 1: will tell about this inheritance and who she is is

914
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 1: so convincing that she fools almost everyone around her and

915
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,800
Speaker 1: it enables her to live like an heiress for years

916
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: and years. She's the embodiment of the very Gilded Age

917
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 1: value that appearances are everything. She's one of the America's

918
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 1: most prolific con artists, known best by her alias Cassie Chadwick.

919
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 1: This is the story of Elizabeth Bigley, the Queen of Ohio.

920
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 3: Hell Yeah.

921
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 1: The sources used for today's story or the book The

922
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 1: Impostor Heiress by Annie Reid and a twenty twelve Smithsonian

923
00:40:56,280 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 1: Magazine article by Abbot Kaylor entitled The High Priestess Fraudulent Finance,

924
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 1: and the rest are in our show notes. So this

925
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 1: all begins in eighteen fifty seven in Ontario, Canada, with

926
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: the birth of a little girl named Elizabeth Bigley. She

927
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 1: comes from a hard working salt of the earth household

928
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,240
Speaker 1: in a very small town in Ontario. Her father works

929
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 1: for the railroad, her mother's a homemaker for the family's

930
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 1: eight children, and according to writer Annie Reid, quote, the

931
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 1: big Lea's passed without much comment in their quiet corner

932
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 1: of Ontario until Elizabeth came along.

933
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 3: Oh shit, what's she's doing?

934
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 1: She got the glass over her head. Even as a

935
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 1: little girl, Elizabeth becomes known for getting fixated on things,

936
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: particularly the very pretty dresses and jewelry that she sees

937
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:44,839
Speaker 1: the ladies in town wear, and over time those fixations

938
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 1: become obsessions. Elizabeth will do anything she can to get

939
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 1: what she wants. When she's twenty one years old, she

940
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,359
Speaker 1: goes into a local barber shop. She asks to have

941
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,359
Speaker 1: all of her hair cut off, and then to have

942
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 1: a fake mustache made of that hair. So, then journalist

943
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 1: Danny Reid writes, quote, Elizabeth walked out of the shop

944
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 1: a mustachioed young man. It had become obvious to her

945
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 1: that the way to get what she wanted was money,

946
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 1: and the best way to get money was to be

947
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: a man end quote shit, right, So that same day, Elizabeth,

948
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 1: with her short hair and her mustache, takes a watch

949
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 1: she'd recently pilford off an unsuspecting man down to the

950
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 1: local pawn shop, where she attempts to pawn it under

951
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 1: an invented male name. But her disguise isn't convincing enough.

952
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 3: Bake mustaches, it's never going to look legit.

953
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 1: It's just all like weird and sitting there, and also

954
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,280
Speaker 1: it's like her first day trying to do this. Essentially,

955
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 1: the clerk immediately calls the police. They take her into custody.

956
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 1: Elizabeth is Eventually her father has to go down and

957
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 1: get her from the police station and they take a

958
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,479
Speaker 1: long walk of shame home together, with her still wearing

959
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 1: her little mustache and dressed like a man. Legally, it

960
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 1: seems she only gets a slap on the wrist for this, though.

961
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 3: Do you have pictures of her?

962
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 1: Uh? Yes, so here's Elizabeth in the classic turn of

963
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,839
Speaker 1: the century portrait sense Okay, thank you. That's the name

964
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 1: she later is known by, which is Cassie L.

965
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 3: Chadwick.

966
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 1: You know when someone has a middle initial.

967
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 3: Like that that they use it regularly? What about them?

968
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 1: They're a fraudster?

969
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 3: Okay?

970
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 1: For sure, they're trying to pass a bad check on

971
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 1: to you. Okay, heads up. So a few months after

972
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: all of this happens, Elizabeth walks into a general store

973
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 1: and grabs a bunch of stuff. She grabs combs and

974
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 1: ribbons and fabrics, anything she can get her hands on.

975
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: She takes it all up to the clerk. The clerk

976
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 1: tells her it's going to be about two hundred and

977
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,720
Speaker 1: fifty dollars, and Elizabeth goes through her purse and hands

978
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 1: the man a card identifying her as quote an heiress

979
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 1: to eighteen thousand dollars. You can just make a card

980
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 1: that's says, go ahead and read this.

981
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 3: I'm gonna want one of those, right please. It's like

982
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:56,399
Speaker 3: sending your kid to the market with cigarettes. My mom's

983
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:58,239
Speaker 3: just I can have that. My mom says, I'm worth

984
00:43:58,320 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 3: eighteen thousand dollars.

985
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 1: Hey, I'm selling my son at back of Marlborough lightes.

986
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:05,800
Speaker 1: So basically, her quoting that she is an heiress to

987
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 1: eighteen thousand dollars in today's money would mean how much

988
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 1: money is she going to get?

989
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 2: Two hundred and thirty six, it's a little bit higher,

990
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:14,840
Speaker 2: three hundred and thirty one.

991
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 1: It's six hundred thousand in today's money. The assumption here

992
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 1: Maren is pointing this out that the two hundred and

993
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 1: fifty dollars is already scaled to today's money, because if

994
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:27,720
Speaker 1: she went and did that and it was two hundred

995
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 1: and fifty dollars in turn of the century money, that

996
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 1: would be she would have bought eight thousand dollars worth of.

997
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:35,800
Speaker 3: Stuff, which like hard to do, yeah back then.

998
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 1: So don't think it's that okay, But anyway, after she

999
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 1: explains her inheritance is gummed up in the legal system

1000
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 1: at the moment and she doesn't have access to it

1001
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 1: right now, but she's going to She would like to

1002
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:50,839
Speaker 1: pay with a promisory note, and that's basically a formal ioeu.

1003
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 1: She hands a promisory note over that appears to be

1004
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: signed by a wealthy farmer from the area. It's unclear

1005
00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 1: how much this is worth, but it's more than the

1006
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty dollars bill that she's just wrung up.

1007
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 1: And of course, as you may have suspected, this promisory

1008
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,359
Speaker 1: note is fake. Elizabeth created the card out of high

1009
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 1: end card stock, opted for a tasteful typeface, and forged

1010
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:17,919
Speaker 1: the signature of that farmer that is on it. There

1011
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 1: is no eighteen thousand dollars inheritance. I'm sorry to tell

1012
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 1: you your heart. I know I hate to be the

1013
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 1: one that basically is the quote that's meant to ease

1014
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:29,320
Speaker 1: the clerk's mind, convince him she's good for the money.

1015
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 1: This is an erow where it would not be unusual

1016
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 1: to accept a promissory note as payment and give the

1017
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 1: difference back to the customer, kind of like cashing someone's check.

1018
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:40,879
Speaker 1: And that's the scam, and that's what this clerk does.

1019
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 1: And by the time he actually tries to cash the

1020
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 1: promisory note, either they're not sure, either down at the

1021
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 1: bank or directly with the farmer that his name is

1022
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 1: on it. Elizabeth is long gone and all her ribbons

1023
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:53,399
Speaker 1: and combs are gone.

1024
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 3: To it's giving me paper moon vibes. Yes, exactly, paper Moon.

1025
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 1: Just hold yourself over until you out of town.

1026
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I love that.

1027
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:03,800
Speaker 1: I got to see that movie again.

1028
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:05,479
Speaker 3: It's one of my favorite movies of all time.

1029
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 1: So she gets away with it, and of course then

1030
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 1: is emboldened to try it again in nearby towns. But

1031
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:13,319
Speaker 1: just one year later, in eighteen seventy nine, she's twenty

1032
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 1: two years old. She gets caught, she gets arrested, and

1033
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 1: when this case goes to trial, the jury seems very sympathetic.

1034
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 1: So this is that kind of thing where it's just like,

1035
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 1: she looked right, she sounded right, she was a charmer,

1036
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 1: she was probably a sociopath. Ye, she was good at

1037
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 1: doing this and conceitful. Yeah, good for her. No, well,

1038
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: it's just that she had the charm, which is something

1039
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 1: I like where it's just like she clearly told people

1040
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 1: stories either they wanted to hear it, she was good

1041
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,359
Speaker 1: at doing it right, and there is the kind of

1042
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:45,319
Speaker 1: magnetism to those people.

1043
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 2: And sometimes the stories that made the other person feel

1044
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:49,879
Speaker 2: good about themselves. Yeah, in a way that made them

1045
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 2: not questionable.

1046
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: I can't tell anyone, I'm going to tell you, like

1047
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. So the jury's on her side.

1048
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,959
Speaker 1: They see her as troubled basically, but not a hardened crimin.

1049
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 1: So in the end, she's found not guilty by reason

1050
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 1: of insanity and she's released back to her parents.

1051
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:07,880
Speaker 2: Wow, they're like, crazy bitch, get the fuck out of here,

1052
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 2: just go home.

1053
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:10,799
Speaker 3: Hey, you crazy bitch, Right, this is.

1054
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,760
Speaker 1: Fun, you crazy bitch. It's not your birthday for a month,

1055
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 1: stop it. So now it's the early eighteen eighties. Elizabeth

1056
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 1: is in her mid twenties and she decides she's getting

1057
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 1: out of Canada for Cleveland, Ohio. Sure you know Glamour's

1058
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 1: Cleveland o'high step up out of Ontario, straight to Cleveland.

1059
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 1: Her older sister, Alice lives in Cleveland with her wealthy

1060
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 1: businessman husband and his name is Standish Milton York.

1061
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 3: Wow.

1062
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 1: So she gets to move right into that house. They

1063
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 1: live in an affluent part of town. The house is

1064
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 1: gorgeously decorated. There's expensive furniture and decor everywhere. Elizabeth basically

1065
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 1: gets set up for a new life, and she is

1066
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,360
Speaker 1: supposed to be there working toward an honest living and

1067
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 1: starting over. But that's not our girl. That's not what

1068
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 1: Elizabeth does. She starts using fake names to take out

1069
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 1: loans on her sister's belongings.

1070
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 2: Girl, she sty she can't stop, she can't help herself.

1071
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:13,920
Speaker 2: She's a swindler, true swindler. Yeah now maybe.

1072
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 1: When lenders show up at the apartment demanding the payment,

1073
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:22,359
Speaker 1: Elizabeth leaves. Elizabeth leaves town, and she leaves her sister

1074
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 1: high and dry. Allison standish have to pick up the

1075
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 1: pieces after she basically sells their house out from under them.

1076
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 2: Oh my god, don't burn the bridges that you're already on,

1077
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 2: that are closest to you, that are stable burn other bridges.

1078
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 3: That's that one.

1079
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 1: These types of people love the close burns because that's

1080
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 1: where all like they, that's where all the excitement is.

1081
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 1: Are they going to find out that we're sitting at

1082
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 1: a dining room table I already sold.

1083
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:47,320
Speaker 3: Oh my god.

1084
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 1: Okay, So she's now on the streets, running away in

1085
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 1: need of cash. So she actually turns to a profession

1086
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 1: that has long been a haven for con artists. Not everybody,

1087
00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 1: of course, but some, and that is the art of fortune.

1088
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:04,480
Speaker 1: She bills herself as a clairvoyant named Madame la de

1089
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 1: Vere or de Vere, and she begins to steadily attract

1090
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: a middle class clientele. In her day to day life,

1091
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 1: she calls herself Lydia Bigley. She tells people she's an

1092
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 1: Irish heiress, which that's a contradiction in terms right there.

1093
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 1: Unless it's Guinness, there's no fucking way. So this is

1094
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 1: the identity she's using. In eighteen eighty two, when she

1095
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 1: visits a local doctor named Wallace Springsteen, who, like most people,

1096
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 1: finds her incredibly charming. We don't know how holy is.

1097
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 1: What we do know is he was a Civil War veteran,

1098
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:39,400
Speaker 1: which would put him Maren says her hunches. He's in

1099
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 1: his early forties while Elizabeth is still in her mid twenties.

1100
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:47,880
Speaker 1: Doctor Springsteen, undeterred by the fact that she's much younger

1101
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:51,360
Speaker 1: and a patient of his, begins to pursue Elizabeth, who's

1102
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 1: now going by Lydia the Fortune Teller. The two have

1103
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 1: a whirlwind romance because of course, every early twenty year

1104
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:02,800
Speaker 1: old's love an old doctor to just hang out with.

1105
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 2: Well, sweep them off their feet, but don't hurt your back.

1106
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 1: No, no easy, easy, watch out for the gout. She

1107
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 1: manages to conceal her dark past until the ink is

1108
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 1: dry on their marriage certificate. But then she makes one

1109
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,759
Speaker 1: very sloppy move, and that is agreeing to have a

1110
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 1: wedding announcement. They always want the credit, okay, so, and

1111
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:25,840
Speaker 1: it's complete with a photograph, and it's published in the

1112
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 1: Cleveland Plain Dealer.

1113
00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 3: Okay.

1114
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:30,839
Speaker 1: And now all the lenders that know Elizabeth's face that

1115
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:34,440
Speaker 1: she scammed in the past and evaded, including her furious

1116
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 1: sister Alice. They all come out of the woodwork right

1117
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:40,759
Speaker 1: to the Springsteen's door, demanding the doctor pay off his

1118
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 1: wife's debts.

1119
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 3: So many rookie mistakes, starting with not leaving Cleveland.

1120
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't have all of it. You can't be

1121
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:50,880
Speaker 1: there as the proud young couple and get away with

1122
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 1: all the scams.

1123
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 3: That's so weird. I thought she would do that.

1124
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, of course, finding out about his wife's debts

1125
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:02,279
Speaker 1: stuns Doctor Springsteen. He immediately files for divorce. The relationship

1126
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:04,240
Speaker 1: is over twelve days after the wedding.

1127
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 3: Oh, he went for it.

1128
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:08,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, he has to pay her debt. As her husband,

1129
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:09,839
Speaker 1: he is responsible.

1130
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:10,320
Speaker 2: Shut.

1131
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 1: Yes, and to the point where he actually writes a

1132
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 1: notice for a Cleveland area newspaper saying, quote, I hereby

1133
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 1: forbid any person from trusting or harboring my wife, as

1134
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:23,439
Speaker 1: I will pay no bills of her contracting after this date.

1135
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 3: Wow.

1136
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:25,840
Speaker 1: So it's so bad he has to go to the

1137
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 1: press and be like, no more. Yeah, holy shit, we

1138
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 1: don't have the amount, but it's basically that period of time. Yeah,

1139
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:35,399
Speaker 1: she can really churn it up when she wants to,

1140
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 1: So basically him publishing this letter cancels Elizabeth's ability to

1141
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 1: swindle people in the Cleveland area, so she picks up

1142
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:47,279
Speaker 1: and heads over to eerie, Pennsylvania, a place you love.

1143
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:50,720
Speaker 1: She moves into a boarding house under the name Maizie

1144
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:52,320
Speaker 1: Bagley and she's.

1145
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:52,879
Speaker 3: The last name.

1146
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:53,360
Speaker 1: Girl.

1147
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:56,799
Speaker 3: I know you're attached to it, but like Biglely is

1148
00:51:56,840 --> 00:51:57,920
Speaker 3: the real name. Yeah.

1149
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 1: So she's just doing little things things here and there, okay, sot.

1150
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:05,360
Speaker 1: And soon after she arrives as Mazy, she starts hanging

1151
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:08,880
Speaker 1: out in common spaces in this place where she got

1152
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:12,800
Speaker 1: her apartment or her you know, her room, and starts

1153
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 1: coughing and hacking uncontrollably, sometimes so violently that she coughs

1154
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:21,320
Speaker 1: up blood. What's happening is that she tells the borders

1155
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 1: she's very sick, she's in need of immediate medical care

1156
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 1: and needs to go back home to Cleveland. Everyone's so

1157
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:30,440
Speaker 1: concerned with her that they pull their money and these

1158
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 1: are just people renting rooms, and they buy her the

1159
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 1: ticket to get back to Cleveland so she can get that.

1160
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 3: It's a vintage kickstarter Exactly what are they called?

1161
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 1: It's a vintage Kickstarter from a person who is not

1162
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 1: coughing up blood. What she's doing is going to her

1163
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:48,720
Speaker 1: room and picking at her gums until when she coughs,

1164
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 1: blood comes out, because she basically like picks out her gums.

1165
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 2: I mean it's smart. That is convincing, Like how can

1166
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 2: she be lying there's blood?

1167
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 3: Yes?

1168
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:58,800
Speaker 1: And also get her the fuck out of here because

1169
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:01,480
Speaker 1: she has consumption, so she's going to make us all sick.

1170
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 1: So they do that, and then she's like, on the train,

1171
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 1: thanks so so much, I'll pay you back when I

1172
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:07,319
Speaker 1: get home.

1173
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 3: She's waving her bloody handkerchief at them. Goodbye.

1174
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 1: Ry. Two weeks later, a letter comes to the boarding

1175
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 1: house with the shocking and sudden news that Maizie is dead.

1176
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:22,040
Speaker 1: So say goodbye to that twenty five cents that broke you.

1177
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,560
Speaker 1: For the next few years, Elizabeth Laislow and sticks around Cleveland,

1178
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 1: presuming work as a fortune teller, now under the name

1179
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:31,799
Speaker 1: Madame LaRose. She's always changing it. She marries one of

1180
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 1: her regular clients, great idea. They quickly divorce. In the

1181
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,400
Speaker 1: late eighteen eighties, she marries for a third time to

1182
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:39,240
Speaker 1: another client.

1183
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:41,800
Speaker 3: What does she go, I see you marrying a fortune

1184
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 3: teller who's sitting in front of you. Mm hmmm.

1185
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 1: And then she just starts doing all the shoulder work.

1186
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:50,680
Speaker 1: Her third husband that's also a client, dies not long

1187
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 1: after they get married, and she inherits part of his estate.

1188
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:56,799
Speaker 1: She takes up money, and she does what you and

1189
00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:00,360
Speaker 1: or I would do. She moves to Toledo, adopting the

1190
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 1: excellent fake name Florida Blythe and Florida continues her fortune

1191
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:11,279
Speaker 1: telling work. Intoledo, she forges a particularly important relationship with

1192
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:15,280
Speaker 1: a client named Joseph Lamb and later a reporter named

1193
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 1: Abbot kaylor Will write quote, Joseph seemed willing to do

1194
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:22,240
Speaker 1: any favor that she asked. He, along with numerous other victims,

1195
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 1: would later claim that she had hypnotic powers. A popular

1196
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:29,360
Speaker 1: concept at the turn of the twentieth century, people believed

1197
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 1: that hypnotism was an acceptable explanation for adultery, runaway teenagers,

1198
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 1: and the increasingly common occurrence of young shop girls fleeing

1199
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 1: with strange men they met on trains.

1200
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:41,960
Speaker 3: End quote. I wish it was true.

1201
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 1: It'd be fun just being able to hypnotize people. Yeah,

1202
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:48,080
Speaker 1: come on this train with me. Among the favors that

1203
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:51,239
Speaker 1: Elizabeth asks of Joseph or that he cashed some of

1204
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:54,400
Speaker 1: her world famous promissory notes down at the bank, and

1205
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:59,480
Speaker 1: again these look totally legit. They have signatures from Cleveland businessmen,

1206
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 1: they're printed on the nice card stock. They're totally fake,

1207
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:07,759
Speaker 1: and Joseph is able to cash them anyway. So Elizabeth

1208
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:11,920
Speaker 1: ends up with this round of fake promisory notes making

1209
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:15,840
Speaker 1: around forty grand Holy shit in today's.

1210
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 3: Money, I'm gonna go eight hundred and twenty six.

1211
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 1: One point five million times.

1212
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1213
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:23,279
Speaker 1: The bank quickly catches on that the notes are fake.

1214
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:26,400
Speaker 1: The two are caught, but the authorities know it's Elizabeth

1215
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 1: that's behind all of this. She's convicted on forgery charges

1216
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:32,480
Speaker 1: and sentenced to nine and a half years in prison.

1217
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:36,359
Speaker 1: But even behind bars, Elizabeth continues to claim she's a clairvoyant.

1218
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:38,880
Speaker 1: When she does a reading for the warden, she tells

1219
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:41,760
Speaker 1: him that he's a going to lose thousands of dollars

1220
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:44,839
Speaker 1: in a bad business deal, and b he's going to

1221
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:48,600
Speaker 1: die of cancer. I'm sorry, I'm laughing, but I'm so

1222
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 1: sorry I'm laughing. But it's actually so daring of her

1223
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 1: to be like, and you're going to die of cancer.

1224
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:57,880
Speaker 1: Totally both of those things happen, No because of her, though, Yeah,

1225
00:55:58,000 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 1: she wills them to happen. No, no, no, she just

1226
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:02,759
Speaker 1: like there's people who think she actually was maybe a

1227
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 1: lot clairvoyant, and that's why she went into that business.

1228
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 1: Maybe there's some truth to that. Either way, that gives

1229
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:12,080
Speaker 1: her a little more credence. And she's also spending her

1230
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 1: time writing letters lobbying for her parole and citing her

1231
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:19,279
Speaker 1: good behavior while she's been incarcerated. Somehow her powers of

1232
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:23,840
Speaker 1: persuasion secure her release in eighteen ninety three, only a

1233
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 1: few years into her prison term.

1234
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:28,160
Speaker 3: She hypnotizes the parole board somehow.

1235
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:32,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, she hypnotizes the then governor William McKinley, who will

1236
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:34,279
Speaker 1: go on to serve as our twenty fifth president. I

1237
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 1: do that, I mean a port. Now she's thirty six

1238
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:42,120
Speaker 1: years old, she's out of prison. She's heading back to Cleveland. Yeah,

1239
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:45,880
Speaker 1: and she adopts the new name Cassie Hoover. She quickly

1240
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:49,399
Speaker 1: finds a fourth husband. He's also a doctor. He's much

1241
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:53,319
Speaker 1: older than the last one. He's recently widowed. He's very rich,

1242
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:56,839
Speaker 1: and his name is Leroy Chadwick. Let's take a look.

1243
00:56:56,880 --> 00:57:00,319
Speaker 1: We have a picture of doctor Leroy Chadwick. Okay, look

1244
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 1: at me. This is a little sleepy.

1245
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:03,400
Speaker 3: He's sleepy.

1246
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 1: He's so tired of his life lying all the time.

1247
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:06,759
Speaker 3: He's got her mustache on.

1248
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:12,240
Speaker 1: That'd be amazing if she made herself a big, old

1249
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 1: bushy mustache. Yeah, okay, that's what he loves her for.

1250
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 1: So his friends are stunned when he shows up with

1251
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 1: a new wife because she seems to have appeared out

1252
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:27,640
Speaker 1: of mid air or thin air, came in a blue

1253
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 1: he started up high.

1254
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:35,280
Speaker 3: What that's why they're that's crazy crazy.

1255
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:38,120
Speaker 1: He doesn't want to talk to his friends about how

1256
00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:38,960
Speaker 1: he met Cassie.

1257
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 3: Sure, that's always a good sign.

1258
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:43,880
Speaker 1: That's always great when you're like, how'd you guys meet?

1259
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:46,400
Speaker 3: I don't want to disco look at my envelope?

1260
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:48,800
Speaker 1: Can you give me a ride to my dad's house?

1261
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:52,480
Speaker 1: He just has the explanation, this simple explanation, that she

1262
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:56,040
Speaker 1: helped comfort the symptoms of his rheumatism by giving him

1263
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:57,640
Speaker 1: therapeutic back massages.

1264
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:04,920
Speaker 2: No big deal, that, no big sow vincent I met.

1265
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:08,920
Speaker 1: Just constant naturally. Rumors spread they met in a brothel

1266
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:12,720
Speaker 1: and that she was the madam. Oh good for her right.

1267
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:16,160
Speaker 1: Cassie aka Elizabeth does not give a shit because she

1268
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:19,920
Speaker 1: has just married into serious wealth. Her neighbors now include

1269
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:23,720
Speaker 1: a Rockefeller, a US senator, and other rich elites, and

1270
00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:28,040
Speaker 1: she now gets to spend her husband's money with abandon. So,

1271
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:33,160
Speaker 1: while living as Cassie Elizabeth buys piles of clothes and jewels,

1272
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:36,520
Speaker 1: she actually buys a nine thousand dollars pipe organ in

1273
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:40,840
Speaker 1: today's holy shit, in time today's money, it would.

1274
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:43,200
Speaker 2: Be four hundred and fifty thousand, close three hundred and

1275
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:44,720
Speaker 2: thirty thousand dollars.

1276
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 1: But all of this spending comes to a breaking point.

1277
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:50,160
Speaker 1: Leroy lets his wife know he will be raining in

1278
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:50,800
Speaker 1: her spending.

1279
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:54,240
Speaker 2: That's again like, don't go fucking crazy right to a

1280
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:55,760
Speaker 2: point where people are like suspicion.

1281
00:58:56,200 --> 00:58:58,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, if it's the turn of the century, how about

1282
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:00,440
Speaker 1: you get a pipe organ that's worth like one hundred dollars.

1283
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 3: Can you even play the pipe organ?

1284
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:02,400
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1285
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:04,080
Speaker 1: What's your pipe organ obsessions?

1286
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:04,960
Speaker 3: A pipe organ?

1287
00:59:05,160 --> 00:59:09,960
Speaker 1: Turn it off, it's too loud. It's like done that.

1288
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:14,680
Speaker 1: She has Dracula ambitions. Okay, So basically this is where

1289
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:18,480
Speaker 1: the story started. It's nineteen oh two. Cassie's forty something.

1290
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 1: She doesn't like that her spending has now been limited.

1291
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:23,800
Speaker 1: She's going to take the matters into her own hands,

1292
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:27,479
Speaker 1: as she likes to do so. She has just left

1293
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:30,240
Speaker 1: the Carnegie mansion with her big envelope under her arm

1294
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:33,880
Speaker 1: and getting back into her husband's friend's carriage, telling him

1295
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:36,880
Speaker 1: she can't tell him anything, then telling him literally everything,

1296
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:41,880
Speaker 1: And when she shows him what's in that envelope, James sees,

1297
00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:46,000
Speaker 1: and as a lawyer, he witnesses seeing two promissory notes.

1298
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:48,840
Speaker 1: One is for a quarter of a million dollars, which

1299
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:53,360
Speaker 1: today would be worth how many million? Twenty two million,

1300
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 1: nine point seven million, okay, but still basically I'm worth

1301
00:59:57,000 --> 01:00:00,800
Speaker 1: ten million dollars here. The other is for a million dollars,

1302
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:04,920
Speaker 1: which is nineteen million in today's and they're both signed

1303
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:08,400
Speaker 1: by Andrew Carnegie. And then she also shows him more paperwork,

1304
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:11,520
Speaker 1: purportedly showing proof of the stocks and bonds she's been

1305
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:15,440
Speaker 1: gifted by her rich father. Her stocks and bonds are

1306
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:18,840
Speaker 1: valued around five million dollars, which would be one hundred

1307
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:20,840
Speaker 1: and ninety four million dollars today.

1308
01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:24,040
Speaker 3: Holy shit, that's really going for.

1309
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:26,520
Speaker 1: It, she really is. I'm sorry to tell you it's

1310
01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:26,959
Speaker 1: all fake.

1311
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:28,440
Speaker 3: What she forged? All of it?

1312
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:30,520
Speaker 1: When she knocked on the front door.

1313
01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:31,280
Speaker 3: How'd she get in?

1314
01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:34,240
Speaker 1: She basically said, Hello, I'm a very rich lady and

1315
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 1: I would like to hire my own lady's maid. Can

1316
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:38,320
Speaker 1: I talk to the head of your household to talk

1317
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 1: about how I could find help from my rich households?

1318
01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 1: They're like, come on in, ma'am. She stays in for

1319
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:46,000
Speaker 1: as long as she can. She talks to the head

1320
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:49,120
Speaker 1: of their housekeeping for as long as she possibly can

1321
01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:52,840
Speaker 1: to make it seem realistic shit, and then comes back outside.

1322
01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:55,880
Speaker 1: I would love to there just be like she went.

1323
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:59,400
Speaker 3: Oh the fuck, I got some privies to empty.

1324
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I got to just scrub down a surface. Elizabeth

1325
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:05,960
Speaker 1: is betting on the fact that James will not be

1326
01:01:06,040 --> 01:01:08,920
Speaker 1: able to keep this juicy secret under wrap, of course,

1327
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:11,120
Speaker 1: which is just such a brilliant This is what I

1328
01:01:11,160 --> 01:01:14,480
Speaker 1: do love about scams. You're betting on the behavior that

1329
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:20,000
Speaker 1: everybody exhibits totally, because who among us, yeah doesn't immediately

1330
01:01:20,120 --> 01:01:22,040
Speaker 1: when someone is like, welease have to tell you, so

1331
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:24,480
Speaker 1: please don't tell anyone, yeah, or I'm just like, I

1332
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:27,240
Speaker 1: won't except for my sister, right, and have four other

1333
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:28,480
Speaker 1: people exactly.

1334
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:29,400
Speaker 3: So she's right.

1335
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 1: As soon as James gets back to Ohio, he blabs

1336
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:34,919
Speaker 1: to everyone in their social circle that Cassie's real father

1337
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:39,720
Speaker 1: is Andrew Carnegie, that she's the illegitimate child, she's actually loaded.

1338
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:43,600
Speaker 1: The news makes its way all throughout Cleveland's most elite circles.

1339
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:44,640
Speaker 3: Remember, she's like, remember.

1340
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:46,080
Speaker 2: When y'all hated me because I was up in the air,

1341
01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:47,480
Speaker 2: and now you're sacking TONI in.

1342
01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:50,160
Speaker 1: Remember the balloon jealousy you felt toward me, and look

1343
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:52,560
Speaker 1: at me now. But here's the thing. All that gossip

1344
01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:55,680
Speaker 1: does not reach her husband. If he was traveling throughout Europe,

1345
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:57,880
Speaker 1: he got sick, he's been laid up, he's just been

1346
01:01:57,920 --> 01:01:58,680
Speaker 1: stuck over there.

1347
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:00,680
Speaker 2: It's probably rude to talk about something like that too

1348
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:02,040
Speaker 2: to someone, you know what I mean, Like, you're not

1349
01:02:02,040 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 2: supposed to talk about money.

1350
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:07,440
Speaker 3: The parentage is like shameful in those days.

1351
01:02:07,280 --> 01:02:08,560
Speaker 1: Right's supposed to be shameful.

1352
01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:10,920
Speaker 3: So you don't bring that up casually.

1353
01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 1: Not to the husband, no, because that's basically you're talking

1354
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:17,080
Speaker 1: about that. You're judging her right, and that essentially the

1355
01:02:17,080 --> 01:02:18,760
Speaker 1: point of all of it is, Wow, look how rich

1356
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:21,120
Speaker 1: she is. So you're not supposed to be saying that stuff.

1357
01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:25,280
Speaker 1: So it's the perfect setup. The rumor mill is a buzz. Elizabeth,

1358
01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:28,480
Speaker 1: of course, plays Coy. The story is believable enough that

1359
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:31,360
Speaker 1: she is able to secure massive loans from a handful

1360
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:34,520
Speaker 1: of banks just based on who they think her father is.

1361
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:38,080
Speaker 1: The loans are never less than ten thousand dollars, which

1362
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:41,000
Speaker 1: is almost four hundred thousand dollars in today's money, and

1363
01:02:41,080 --> 01:02:44,800
Speaker 1: the largest is reportedly eight hundred thousand dollars thirty one

1364
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:45,960
Speaker 1: million dollars today.

1365
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:48,520
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I went for it.

1366
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:52,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's all remarkable considering at the time most women

1367
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 1: could not get a bank loan by themselves at all. Right,

1368
01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:57,800
Speaker 1: and she's doing it all on these cards. She keeps

1369
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:01,360
Speaker 1: passing everybody wo with men's signature on them. Wow, much

1370
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:04,400
Speaker 1: like the little mustachio that she got herself. She's like,

1371
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:07,600
Speaker 1: how do I use the men to make that money?

1372
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:08,120
Speaker 3: Wow?

1373
01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:10,880
Speaker 1: So she's getting away with which essentially is a pre

1374
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:14,560
Speaker 1: Ponzi Ponzi scheme because she pays off the last loan

1375
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:18,600
Speaker 1: after she secures the next one, and of course lives

1376
01:03:18,680 --> 01:03:23,040
Speaker 1: insanely extravagantly, which then convinces the people in Cleveland she

1377
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:26,360
Speaker 1: is who she says she is. Her husband Leroy does

1378
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:29,800
Speaker 1: not catch on. He's old and rich, and I guess

1379
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:34,200
Speaker 1: sick and so Elizabeth essentially buys ninety eight thousand dollars

1380
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:38,800
Speaker 1: worth of jewels in one go shit three point six

1381
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:42,520
Speaker 1: million today. So she just goes hell of shopping. Oh

1382
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:45,560
Speaker 1: my god, pearls that are valued at forty thousand dollars

1383
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:48,680
Speaker 1: which would be one point four million today, and enough

1384
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:50,680
Speaker 1: clothes to fill dozens of closets.

1385
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:51,840
Speaker 3: I want to look at it.

1386
01:03:52,040 --> 01:04:06,479
Speaker 1: For Christmas nineteen oh three, she gives all her friends pianos. Honey, yep,

1387
01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:07,640
Speaker 1: everybody gets a piano.

1388
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:10,720
Speaker 3: Everybody gets a piano, and.

1389
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:13,920
Speaker 1: The pianos are worth thousands of dollars.

1390
01:04:14,760 --> 01:04:16,480
Speaker 3: So I'm doing this year great.

1391
01:04:16,520 --> 01:04:19,320
Speaker 1: And required lessons right after school.

1392
01:04:19,360 --> 01:04:21,919
Speaker 3: Everybody exactly right gets a piano.

1393
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:23,880
Speaker 1: This year, and we want to hear hot cross buns

1394
01:04:23,920 --> 01:04:29,040
Speaker 1: by Valentine's learn or we're taking it back. So by

1395
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:33,000
Speaker 1: nineteen oh five, everything is spiraling, spiraling out of control,

1396
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:35,960
Speaker 1: and when we get to free pianos and pipe organ area,

1397
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:39,680
Speaker 1: it's just like there's no one's there's no breaks. Elizabeth's

1398
01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:43,600
Speaker 1: spending is too exorbitant. She's no longer repaying any debts.

1399
01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:48,240
Speaker 1: That ruins the Ponzi scheme. Her lenders are drowning. Leroy

1400
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:52,560
Speaker 1: Finally puts two and two together, he files for divorce. Elizabeth,

1401
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:54,959
Speaker 1: who is now fifty years old, flees to New York,

1402
01:04:55,200 --> 01:04:58,760
Speaker 1: knowing she's in too deep. When she's tracked down by police,

1403
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:02,160
Speaker 1: they reportedly find a money belt around her waist holding

1404
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:05,760
Speaker 1: around one hundred thousand dollars, which would be three point

1405
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:06,800
Speaker 1: eight million dollars.

1406
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:12,160
Speaker 2: Where she's staying, Like what hotel like the plaza or whatever?

1407
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:13,320
Speaker 1: What would be there?

1408
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:16,080
Speaker 2: I know, I mean, right, yeah, it's not the fucking

1409
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:17,680
Speaker 2: holiday in China Town.

1410
01:05:17,720 --> 01:05:19,160
Speaker 3: I guarantee you that.

1411
01:05:19,600 --> 01:05:23,280
Speaker 1: It's high on the west side. She is indicted on

1412
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:27,800
Speaker 1: forgery and conspiracy charges for defrauding a national bank. That

1413
01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:31,560
Speaker 1: would be the Citizens National Bank in Oberlin, Ohio, which

1414
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:35,920
Speaker 1: declares bankruptcy as a direct result of this scheme. Wow,

1415
01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:39,880
Speaker 1: and because Oberlin is a college town, right, it financially

1416
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:44,800
Speaker 1: devastates countless students who use that bank. It's super fucked up.

1417
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:47,840
Speaker 1: Their trial is a huge sensation. Of course, it's covered

1418
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:52,200
Speaker 1: globally in newspapers. Andrew Carnegie himself attends the trial.

1419
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:57,040
Speaker 3: It's like, yep, that's my daughter, oops, dad.

1420
01:05:57,040 --> 01:05:59,480
Speaker 1: And he eventually gets a chance to look the promissory

1421
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:03,520
Speaker 1: notes have his quote signature on them, and he notices

1422
01:06:03,600 --> 01:06:07,200
Speaker 1: typos throughout the documents, and he says, quote, if anybody

1423
01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:09,640
Speaker 1: had seen this paper and they really believed that I

1424
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:12,080
Speaker 1: had drawn it up and signed it, I could hardly

1425
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:15,920
Speaker 1: have been flattered. And oh yeah, so you did some

1426
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:19,320
Speaker 1: shit work and everyone believed that I was going along

1427
01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:23,080
Speaker 1: with that. Carnegie winds up making donations to some of

1428
01:06:23,160 --> 01:06:27,560
Speaker 1: Elizabeth's victims, including fully reimbursing the Oberlin students who lost

1429
01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:30,360
Speaker 1: all their money at that bank. Wow, and just for

1430
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 1: their trouble. He endows enough money to Oberlin College for

1431
01:06:34,160 --> 01:06:35,880
Speaker 1: the school to build a new library.

1432
01:06:36,240 --> 01:06:36,920
Speaker 3: What a mention.

1433
01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:40,400
Speaker 1: In the end, Elizabeth Bigley is found guilty and sentenced

1434
01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:44,520
Speaker 1: to ten years in prison, and immediately her health begins

1435
01:06:44,520 --> 01:06:46,920
Speaker 1: to decline, which is kind of like when the magic

1436
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:49,960
Speaker 1: finally goes away. It's like the churn and the excitement

1437
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:53,320
Speaker 1: and everything, and then once it's over, it's over. She

1438
01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:56,760
Speaker 1: basically ends up dying a year later after what's described

1439
01:06:56,760 --> 01:06:59,840
Speaker 1: in old reports as a quote total nervous collapse, but

1440
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:03,120
Speaker 1: was more likely a heart attack. She's fifty one years

1441
01:07:03,120 --> 01:07:05,640
Speaker 1: old at the time, which kind of upset me when

1442
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:09,280
Speaker 1: I heard that historians aren't exactly sure how much money

1443
01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:13,400
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Bigley defrauded from her victims and never repaid, but

1444
01:07:13,600 --> 01:07:17,440
Speaker 1: as Cassie Chadwick alone, it's estimated to be around six

1445
01:07:17,560 --> 01:07:20,720
Speaker 1: hundred and thirty thousand dollars, which is more than twenty

1446
01:07:20,720 --> 01:07:22,320
Speaker 1: three million dollars in today's money.

1447
01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:24,040
Speaker 3: Should I mean go big Y.

1448
01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:28,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, she really did go back to Toledo or whatever, yeah, Ontario.

1449
01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:32,000
Speaker 1: Ontario historians say that it's likely an even higher amount

1450
01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:35,720
Speaker 1: because many of her male victims probably would not want

1451
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:39,439
Speaker 1: to admit that they had been scammed so intensely by

1452
01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:42,400
Speaker 1: a fortune teller or just a cute young twenty five

1453
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:46,720
Speaker 1: year old or on Madam prob just a woman at all. Today,

1454
01:07:46,720 --> 01:07:49,520
Speaker 1: Elizabeth remains one of the most prolific on artists in

1455
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:54,120
Speaker 1: all of American history. Writer Quincy Balias reports for Ohio

1456
01:07:54,280 --> 01:07:59,600
Speaker 1: History Connection that quote, female fraudsters like Anasorican and Elizabeth

1457
01:07:59,640 --> 01:08:02,960
Speaker 1: Holmes currently dominate the news, but neither perfected the art

1458
01:08:03,040 --> 01:08:05,840
Speaker 1: of the grift to the extent that Cassie did. She

1459
01:08:06,040 --> 01:08:10,200
Speaker 1: truly earned the title of the world's greatest woman swindler.

1460
01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:13,280
Speaker 1: End quote. And that's the story of Elizabeth Bigley, the

1461
01:08:13,320 --> 01:08:15,320
Speaker 1: Scamming Queen. Of Ohio.

1462
01:08:15,840 --> 01:08:20,360
Speaker 3: Amazing. Wow, what was she like? Who would you cast

1463
01:08:20,920 --> 01:08:21,400
Speaker 3: as her?

1464
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:24,599
Speaker 1: Well, for something that intense, I would do like a

1465
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:28,639
Speaker 1: Holly Hunter type of person where you suddenly are like, wait,

1466
01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:29,360
Speaker 1: why am I?

1467
01:08:29,360 --> 01:08:32,519
Speaker 3: I can't I'm transfixed and unassuming too.

1468
01:08:33,040 --> 01:08:38,040
Speaker 1: Yes, but like the intense Yeah Holly Hunter in raising Arizona.

1469
01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:40,639
Speaker 3: I guess right, yes.

1470
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:42,800
Speaker 1: Where you're suddenly doing what she needs you to do

1471
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:45,040
Speaker 1: because she needs that baby high.

1472
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:45,840
Speaker 3: And you want to help her.

1473
01:08:46,120 --> 01:08:48,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I got to.

1474
01:08:53,600 --> 01:08:55,559
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you?

1475
01:08:55,640 --> 01:08:59,519
Speaker 1: I mean hey, that's our tribute to Royal Swindle. Please

1476
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:01,080
Speaker 1: listen to our newest podcast.

1477
01:09:01,280 --> 01:09:05,000
Speaker 2: Listen, subscribe, like, leave a review. I don't know what

1478
01:09:05,040 --> 01:09:06,160
Speaker 2: are kids doing these days?

1479
01:09:06,280 --> 01:09:09,080
Speaker 1: Love share, It's a Blanchard House joint. You're going to

1480
01:09:09,240 --> 01:09:10,200
Speaker 1: love this podcast.

1481
01:09:10,200 --> 01:09:12,920
Speaker 2: That's right, And thank you for listening to this podcast.

1482
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:15,000
Speaker 2: Do all those things to this podcast too if you

1483
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:15,479
Speaker 2: feel like it.

1484
01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:17,000
Speaker 1: I mean, we have a podcast.

1485
01:09:17,520 --> 01:09:21,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, feeling too, Stay sex and don't get murdered?

1486
01:09:22,400 --> 01:09:25,160
Speaker 3: Gybye Elvis, do you want to cookie?

1487
01:09:25,760 --> 01:09:34,559
Speaker 1: Ah? This has been an exactly right production.

1488
01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:37,439
Speaker 2: Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer

1489
01:09:37,520 --> 01:09:38,240
Speaker 2: is Tessa Hughes.

1490
01:09:38,320 --> 01:09:40,240
Speaker 1: Our editor is Aristotle Ascevedo.

1491
01:09:40,400 --> 01:09:42,520
Speaker 3: This episode was mixed by Leona Squalacci.

1492
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:45,280
Speaker 1: Our researchers are Maeron McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

1493
01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:48,280
Speaker 3: Email your hometowns to My Favorite Murder at gmail dot.

1494
01:09:48,160 --> 01:09:50,960
Speaker 1: Com and follow the show on Instagram at My Favorite Murder.

1495
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:53,840
Speaker 2: Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple

1496
01:09:53,880 --> 01:09:55,840
Speaker 2: Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

1497
01:09:55,840 --> 01:09:58,240
Speaker 1: And now you can watch My Favorite Murder on Netflix.

1498
01:09:58,360 --> 01:10:00,439
Speaker 2: And when you're there, hit the double thumb up in

1499
01:10:00,479 --> 01:10:02,960
Speaker 2: the remind Me buttons. That's the best way you can

1500
01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:04,040
Speaker 2: support our show.

1501
01:10:04,080 --> 01:10:07,880
Speaker 3: Goodbye,