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Speaker 1: My welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how

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Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to

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Speaker 1: Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm

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Speaker 1: Joe McCormick, and we're coming at you with a listener

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Speaker 1: mail episode today. But we're broadcasting from the depths. We're

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Speaker 1: down here in a in a nuclear submarine. It happens

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Speaker 1: because apparently Submarine Command has appropriated our mail bought Carney. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we call it Deep Star seven, um and uh, and

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Speaker 1: that's where we're hanging out for this episode. Yeah, Carney

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Speaker 1: has been working down here in the deep, in the

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Speaker 1: shadowy depths, which is which is perfect because some of

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Speaker 1: the listener mail that we're going to be reading here

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Speaker 1: today does relate to our recent episode on the idea

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Speaker 1: on on studies related to to sleep and even dreaming

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Speaker 1: within the confines of a of a nuclear ballistic missile submarine. Now,

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Speaker 1: as always, we've got to say that we don't have

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Speaker 1: time to respond to or read on the podcast all

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Speaker 1: of the great listener mail we get. Just rest assured

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Speaker 1: we we do try to read it all, uh, and

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Speaker 1: so so thank you so much for sending it. But

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Speaker 1: today you're going to get a selection of some of

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Speaker 1: the stuff we've gotten since the last episode, the last

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Speaker 1: listener mail episode, UH, concerning all kinds of things concerning

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Speaker 1: quantum immortality, UH, submarines and the Alphabet and the Goddess

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Speaker 1: and all kinds of good stuff. But maybe we should

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Speaker 1: start with some of the responses to the Alphabet and

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Speaker 1: the Goddess episodes. Yeah, we heard from a number of

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Speaker 1: people about about this one, you know, in part because

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Speaker 1: it does have a lot of really thought provoking ideas

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Speaker 1: in it. But then also there are some issues with

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Speaker 1: with with some of the uh, the main pieces that

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Speaker 1: Slain uh was was utilizing in the work. Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: if you'll recall, we we did a couple episodes on

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Speaker 1: this book, The Alphabet and the Goddess by Leonard Slain,

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Speaker 1: his book from the late nineties that made this sort

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Speaker 1: of historical neuroscience argument that the rise of patriarchy and

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Speaker 1: the klein or the relative decline of the power of

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Speaker 1: goddesses and religious pantheons around the world was somehow correlated

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Speaker 1: with the rise of alphabetic writing. And he makes a

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Speaker 1: lot of arguments based on hemispheric lateralization of the brain

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Speaker 1: and UH and how that how that's correlated with gender roles,

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Speaker 1: and how that's correlated with alphabetic writing. And so we

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Speaker 1: discussed in the original episode that we were that we

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Speaker 1: were doing the topic because we thought it was kind

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Speaker 1: of thought provoking and raised good questions, not because we

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Speaker 1: were endorsing it as correct right, And I think it

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Speaker 1: also within the context of the episode, we we discussed

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Speaker 1: some of the areas where where I think his argument

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Speaker 1: was a bit weak, such as when it comes to

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Speaker 1: a Chinese writing or the Hindu pantheon. Well, and just

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Speaker 1: generally the idea that that I got the feeling we

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Speaker 1: might be dealing with some historical cherry picking in his arguments,

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Speaker 1: that he was, you know, sort of selectively emphasizing the

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Speaker 1: characteristic of societies or parts of societies that helped his

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Speaker 1: argument and and not necessarily always giving the most balanced

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Speaker 1: reading of things. Now, those were the kinds of concerns

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Speaker 1: we raised in the original episode. I will say, actually,

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Speaker 1: since then, I think I've I've become even more skeptical

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Speaker 1: of his argument because I've I've started to wonder if

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Speaker 1: not just his argument about the explanation for the rise

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Speaker 1: of patriarchy is flawed, but I wonder if some of

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Speaker 1: his underlying assumptions are flawed to like I think in

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Speaker 1: the future, especially based on some some feedback we got

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Speaker 1: after the episode that we should do an episode on

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Speaker 1: the future questioning what the what the gender roles of

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Speaker 1: prehistoric societies actually were, Like, what is the evidence from

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Speaker 1: anthropology and archaeology and everything um about how gender dynamics

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Speaker 1: work in prehistoric societies. Yeah, yeah, I would love to

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Speaker 1: examine that, particularly when you get in not only you

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Speaker 1: know what we can tell about ancient humans, but also

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Speaker 1: ancient Neanderthals. You know, what exactly was the dynamic and

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Speaker 1: what is the what is the relation between that ancient

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Speaker 1: dynamic and the place we are today. Yeah, so that's

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Speaker 1: an episode for the near future. But today we did

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Speaker 1: want to review some of the most interesting listener mail

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Speaker 1: that we got in response to the Alphabet and the

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Speaker 1: Goddess episode. So Robert, you want to jump in with

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Speaker 1: the first one? Sure? This one comes to us from Amelia.

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Speaker 1: Amelia writes, I just started listening to the podcast a

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Speaker 1: couple of months ago, and I've been loving it. I

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Speaker 1: was especially excited when I saw the episode for The

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Speaker 1: Alphabet and the Goddess. The transition from matriarchal to patriarchal

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Speaker 1: religions in the ancient world has always was always a

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Speaker 1: topic that interest me. In college, I studied classical studies

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Speaker 1: as a minor with a concentration on ancient Greece. I

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Speaker 1: was interested to see if you would discuss Minoan and

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Speaker 1: my Sinian culture in ancient Greece and a change in

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Speaker 1: religious symbols as a part of the discussion. Since it

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Speaker 1: wasn't part of the discussion, I thought I'd write in

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Speaker 1: and tell you a little of what I know. The

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Speaker 1: Minoans were a seafaring civilization on crete in the Bronze Age,

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Speaker 1: most famously known for its relation to King Minos and

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Speaker 1: minote our myths. Yeah, man minotaur is one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite monsters. I feel like one of the most underutilized monsters.

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Speaker 1: They are there, They are tremendous, and I love it

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Speaker 1: when somebody gets them right. The old Jim Hinson Storyteller

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Speaker 1: series did a pretty good job with the minotaur. Um

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Speaker 1: of course, House of Leaves of the Horror novel well,

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Speaker 1: we'll just say book Uh does a fabulous job with

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Speaker 1: the minotaur, and Uh the Dungeons and Dragons treatment of

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Speaker 1: menatars is actually pretty good. Oh they're not just like

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Speaker 1: some brute that's gonna throw you around. Well, they are

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Speaker 1: a brute, they'll throw you around, but they have a

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Speaker 1: pretty high wisdom and they can't become lost in amaze.

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Speaker 1: Oh I like that, but sorry, we should go on

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Speaker 1: with Amelia's email. So after mentioning, uh, the Minoans being

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Speaker 1: related to King Minos and minotaur myths, yes, she continues quote.

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Speaker 1: It is thought that the snake was used as a

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Speaker 1: symbol of fertility or rebirth, similar to other cultures in

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Speaker 1: the Middle East. So we think there was some quote

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Speaker 1: unquote mother goddess aspect to Minoan religion and culture. As

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Speaker 1: the Bronze Age progress that the Myscenians settled on the mainland,

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Speaker 1: they were a more patriarchal and militaristic people. They lived

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Speaker 1: in citadels in the mountains and depicted soldiers in their art.

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Speaker 1: Their culture can represent the invasion of the male sky

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Speaker 1: god and established ancient Earth goddess religions. As Indo Europeans

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Speaker 1: move south, eventually the Minoan culture collapsed in Myssinian culture

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Speaker 1: survived to influence the later Classical Greek periods. I think

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Speaker 1: the most interesting thing to me about this transition is

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Speaker 1: the change in symbology that makes it to present day.

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Speaker 1: We can look over time and see the snake turn

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Speaker 1: from this worship symbol of fertility and earth to this

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Speaker 1: hated symbol of trickery and evil. We see in the

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Speaker 1: Bible that the snake is the tempter and the devil

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Speaker 1: in the garden of Eden Medusa, a generally evil character

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Speaker 1: in Greek myth, has hair of snakes. Could this be

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Speaker 1: the patriarchal culture's way of displacing matriarchal religious symbols anti

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Speaker 1: snake propaganda and religious stories. It's something to think about.

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Speaker 1: The Manoan and Messenian periods are just a place in

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Speaker 1: history to study that transition. Looking at the cultures writing systems,

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Speaker 1: Manowan's used a yet to be deciphered writing system called

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Speaker 1: linear A, while the Messenians use Linear B, which is

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Speaker 1: mostly h deciphered. Linear B used a combination of syllabic

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Speaker 1: and ideographic characters. It is thought linear A is similar.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure if that muddies the waters of the

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Speaker 1: argument you presented in the series of episodes, but I

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Speaker 1: agree that the premise uses a lot of generalizations to

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Speaker 1: try and make a point. I just thought i'd share

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Speaker 1: this lesser known slice of history. The Manoans are a

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Speaker 1: particularly interesting people, and I and I think they don't

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Speaker 1: get enough attention, so I like to talk about them

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Speaker 1: when I can keep up the great work. Guys. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's a great email, Thank you, Amelia. Um So, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I do think the Manoans are interesting and we should

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Speaker 1: do more to study that. One of the things that

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Speaker 1: comes up here is uh, something I guess we got

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Speaker 1: out a minute ago, the question of actually how female

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Speaker 1: friendly these earlier, lesser understood cultures actually were. Now, one

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Speaker 1: of the types of feedback we got from some classic

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Speaker 1: scholars after the episode was like a mining the idea

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Speaker 1: that there's this popular idea that there was this sort

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Speaker 1: of universal, worldwide matriarchal, goddess based culture before there was

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Speaker 1: before there was civilization and before there was written history,

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Speaker 1: and there's a lot of evidence that that's just not true. Now,

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Speaker 1: the question might be, was the preliterate pre civilization society

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Speaker 1: more female friendly or more matriarchal but maybe not actually matriarchal? Yeah, Like,

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Speaker 1: I don't even think Schlaine made the argument at least,

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Speaker 1: and that in the book we discussed that that culture

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Speaker 1: was ever largely matriarchal right. Uh, it's just a question

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Speaker 1: of was it more balanced at some point? Um? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I think that is certainly an area of discussion.

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Speaker 1: You know. Another thing that came that the that came

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Speaker 1: to mind and when I was reading that and keeps

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Speaker 1: coming back now, is is that regardless of what the

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Speaker 1: previous gods or goddesses were. Uh, there's always this seems

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Speaker 1: like there's this, Uh, there's this movement to repackage them

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Speaker 1: sometimes as lesser deities or is just outright demons. And

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Speaker 1: you have to ask yourself, well, is this always you know,

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Speaker 1: to what extent gender is playing a role into this

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Speaker 1: transformation or is it a transformation that is in many

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Speaker 1: areas removed from gender concerns. Uh, you know the various

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Speaker 1: pagan gods that were reduced to demons in the advent

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Speaker 1: of Christianity, etcetera. Yeah, I mean, and you wonder about

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Speaker 1: the idea of if there are gender correlations with the

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Speaker 1: history of the understanding of snakes in uh in religion.

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Speaker 1: Because Amelia brings up the Garden of Eden story and

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Speaker 1: one of the funny things about the Garden of Eden story,

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Speaker 1: do you know what never says the snake is Satan. Oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's not in the story. It's just the snake. It's

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Speaker 1: just the snake comes to eve the woman and tempts

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Speaker 1: her with knowledge of good and evil. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: I do know that, of course, that when you look

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Speaker 1: at the Bible Old and New Testament, that the devil

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Speaker 1: is kind of this character where it's it's almost like

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Speaker 1: somebody wrote a really confusing screenplay and someone said, God,

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Speaker 1: we have a number of these antagonists. Can we just

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Speaker 1: combine these into one character, because it's confusing to have

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Speaker 1: a snake and then there's this, uh, this satan character

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Speaker 1: that's like a court official, and then there's this idea

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Speaker 1: of a fallen angel and and and another devil. Just

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Speaker 1: let's make them all the same guy. I mean, it

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Speaker 1: really does make you wonder, though, if the snake is

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Speaker 1: in the Garden of Eden's story a sort of reflection

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Speaker 1: of an earlier story tradition where the snake is something

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Speaker 1: more like a Prometheus character, a character that brings knowledge

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Speaker 1: to the humans, and that that character is transformed into

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Speaker 1: a villain in later versions of the story. Now she

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Speaker 1: also mentioned Medusa here. I would love to do some

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Speaker 1: sort of a deeper dive on Medusa in the future,

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Speaker 1: because I'm one hand always one of my favorite monsters.

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Speaker 1: But it wasn't until I was really an adult that

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Speaker 1: I began to notice just this trend in art and

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Speaker 1: and you know, particularly with statues. There's one statue in particular,

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Speaker 1: I don't remember the sculpture's name, but you find it

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Speaker 1: at at the met in New York City where our

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Speaker 1: hero is holding the decapitated head of Medusa aloft uh.

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Speaker 1: And there are various paintings where where he's in the

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Speaker 1: act of swaying or and there's like a really kind

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Speaker 1: of icky, violent vibe to those images, you know, the

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Speaker 1: murder of this uh, this this feminine monster, this monster

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Speaker 1: is female. Well this this attack on this primordially ugly woman. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it it doesn't sit well with me. I like the

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Speaker 1: scenes where Medusa is dishing out death a lot more well.

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Speaker 1: As beautiful as mythology can be, it's also something we

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Speaker 1: should keep in mind. I mean, cultural values are encoded

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Speaker 1: in myths, and a lot of cultures have had lots

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Speaker 1: of strains of deep, powerful misogyny running through them, and

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Speaker 1: that's there in a lot of the myths too. Now

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Speaker 1: I do want to point out one more tippet from

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Speaker 1: the alphabet. In the Goddess episode, i'm a I referenced

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Speaker 1: a a particular paper by Laura Slatkin titled the the

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Speaker 1: the Rate. It was the rage or the Wrath of Thetis. Uh.

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Speaker 1: She had totally has a book that came out years

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Speaker 1: and years ago titled The Power of Thetis and selected Essays.

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Speaker 1: If anyone is interested to read more of her writings.

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Speaker 1: All right, well, what else do we have? Karney? All right, well,

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Speaker 1: this next one is also about the alphabet and the goddess.

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Speaker 1: And this is from our listener hend And so she writes, Hi,

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Speaker 1: Robert and Joe, I was listening to the second part

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Speaker 1: of the Goddess versus Alphabet episode, and the Sparta Athens

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Speaker 1: comparison struck me. Is either too good to be true

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Speaker 1: or contrived. Now what we actually asked about that, We

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Speaker 1: were like, I wonder to what extent sh Lane is

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Speaker 1: cherry picking his argument here? And we asked for, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you're a classic scholar out there, if you're or

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Speaker 1: an ancient Greek historian, uh, you know, how does his

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Speaker 1: argument strike you? And basically his argument was that Spartan

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Speaker 1: society placed far, far less emphasis on the written word,

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Speaker 1: and at the same time was more friendly to women's

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Speaker 1: rights and women's empowerment than Athenian society was. And Athenian

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Speaker 1: society was highly litigious, highly literate, highly written word oriented. Yea,

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Speaker 1: it was an interesting argument, but I think at the

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Speaker 1: same time we were we were both a little cautious

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Speaker 1: with it at the time. Uh So this is what

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Speaker 1: Hind is getting back to us with. So Hind says,

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Speaker 1: first of all, uh, I don't think there's much validity

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Speaker 1: to the left brain right brain argument, besides interesting oddities

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Speaker 1: to do with split brain patients. Have you guys done

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Speaker 1: an episode on that. I emailed one of my former professors,

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Speaker 1: who is a professor of classics about this, and this

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Speaker 1: is what he said, quote. I'm always a little wary

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Speaker 1: about big left slash right brain arguments, since I doubt

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Speaker 1: the brain functions so simplistically. But what do I know

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Speaker 1: As for Spartan illiteracy, I think that is not so established.

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Speaker 1: It is true that women had a lot more power

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Speaker 1: over some things in Sparta, but I don't think the

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Speaker 1: larger argument stands up, since I don't think it as

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Speaker 1: much to do with literacy. Most of the Spartan and

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Speaker 1: Athenian institutions regarding women were set during a time when

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Speaker 1: both were mostly oral cultures. And then she provides a

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Speaker 1: link to an article which I must say, I haven't

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Speaker 1: had time to read yet, but I would like to

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Speaker 1: look into. Uh So I appreciate that bit of feedback.

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Speaker 1: That's an interesting point. So this could be a way

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Speaker 1: that Slain might not only be cherry picking, but might

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Speaker 1: be like acknowledging differences that are sort of irrelevant because

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Speaker 1: the practices he's pointing to were established before the written

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Speaker 1: word was important in either culture. That's a good point. Now,

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Speaker 1: to come back to the left brain right brain thing,

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Speaker 1: I think that that's something that's something that's important to

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Speaker 1: strike a good balance on because you can absolutely go

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Speaker 1: overboard with the left brain right brain kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: At the same time, I think hemispheric lateralization is an

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Speaker 1: important feature of the human brain. Now there, I think

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of arguments, especially in the later

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Speaker 1: twentieth century, that that overinterpreted the influence of of the

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Speaker 1: left brain right brain division. But the left brain right

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Speaker 1: brain division is a real thing, and it does have consequences.

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Speaker 1: You just don't want to be overly general, overly simplistic

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Speaker 1: about the power of it and explaining behavior. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: I mean similar things go for a lot of the

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Speaker 1: research that has gone into the inner workings of the brain,

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Speaker 1: for instance, going from the idea that there is, say

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Speaker 1: a pleasure center or a pain center of the brain,

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Speaker 1: to a more nuanced understanding that well, it's not a

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Speaker 1: center so much as a network. Yeah, neuroscience is one

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Speaker 1: of those things that's just not very friendly to amateur interpretation,

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Speaker 1: and it's something neither of us are neuroscientists, so we

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Speaker 1: have to do our best to just sort through the

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Speaker 1: science and what people have written about it and try

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Speaker 1: to make sense of it. But you know, neuroscience is

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Speaker 1: one of those things where it's almost never as simple

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Speaker 1: as that headline you read. It's true, I get to

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Speaker 1: kick out of a juicy neuroscience clickbait headline almost as

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Speaker 1: as much as the black hole headlines. You always see

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Speaker 1: something that's like, you know, brains God worship center activates

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Speaker 1: when you view pizza or something. You know, you see

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Speaker 1: those kind of studies and it's like that that can

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Speaker 1: sort of conveys something that's kind of true, but it's

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Speaker 1: not going to be really that simple. So anyway, hind,

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Speaker 1: I think those are very good concerns to raise. All right,

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Speaker 1: here's another one. This one comes to us from Matia,

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Speaker 1: and this one concerns are I believe our our Phartonomicon episode. Hi,

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Speaker 1: Robert and Joe, first time email writer, here, a long

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Speaker 1: time listener. In your most recent mail bag episode, it

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Speaker 1: would have been I guess the one before this you

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Speaker 1: talked about Pathagoras and his comments on fava beans. I

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Speaker 1: never thought beans, that's right, because that was basically his

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Speaker 1: whole deal, as he hated beans and said he should

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Speaker 1: not eat them. It's not his whole deal, not his

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Speaker 1: whole deal obviously, but it was it seemed to be

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Speaker 1: of some importance to Yeah, um, he said, As she continues,

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Speaker 1: I never thought about the connection between the Greek numa

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Speaker 1: and flatulence. It makes a lot of sense and adds

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Speaker 1: a lot to pathagoras maniacal sect. Now, just to refresh, sorry,

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Speaker 1: the idea of the connection between the numa and flatulence

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Speaker 1: is that numa usually means breath. It's also funny enough

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Speaker 1: the word for like spirit or ghosts, So you have

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Speaker 1: like the Holy Spirit being a numa, and then you

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Speaker 1: could breathe out a numa, but then also what would

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Speaker 1: be another kind of numa? Well, but the factors is

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Speaker 1: arguing here that you could essentially fart out your own soul. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: that that's the basic ideas I interpreted, She continues. However,

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Speaker 1: there is a more widespread explanation for pythagoras take on

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Speaker 1: fava beans. A common mutation among Mediterranean people is G

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Speaker 1: six p D deficiency, which causes severe anemia upon exposure

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Speaker 1: to certain compounds, including antimalarial drugs, the antibiotic bactrum, and

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Speaker 1: guess what, fava beans. The condition is commonly known as

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Speaker 1: father is um because of this effect. Ever, the flamboyant

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Speaker 1: to explainer path Agoras observed this condition and prohibited his

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Speaker 1: followers from eating these beans, which were said to contain

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Speaker 1: the soul of the dead. Keep up the great work.

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Speaker 1: There is no podcast like yours. The Soul of the

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Speaker 1: Dead in beans. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't make it

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Speaker 1: to that part. So well, thank you. My son is

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Speaker 1: distrustful of beans, that really. Yeah, and uh, and maybe

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Speaker 1: that's why he knows deep down that they may contain

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Speaker 1: the souls of the dead. Have they wronged him? No?

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Speaker 1: He just they betrayed him. He just sometimes it's hard

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Speaker 1: to get him excited about beans. I don't know why.

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Speaker 1: I fort for a kid who has has sworn off

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Speaker 1: most meats, it would benefit him tremendously to be just

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Speaker 1: all in on beans. But it's been an uphill battle.

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Speaker 1: You know. You say he's into shellfish though, right, Oh, yes,

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Speaker 1: she shellfish and beans don't really go together. It's true,

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Speaker 1: maybe that said he deep down he knows that his

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Speaker 1: favorite his favorite foods don't really work that well with that.

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Speaker 1: But you know, on the other hand, I have had

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Speaker 1: some wonderful like shrimp dishes that I think incorporate some

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Speaker 1: forms of beans. Oh yeah, I guess guess now that

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Speaker 1: I think about it. I mean not kidney beans obviously,

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Speaker 1: but not fava beans. We all know that fava beans

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Speaker 1: go best with human liver in kianti. But but but,

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Speaker 1: you know, hilarity aside. This is an interesting argument, the

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Speaker 1: idea that there could be something else at play here

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Speaker 1: besides just mere superstition and far diversion. Right. Hey, speaking

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Speaker 1: of goddesses, we've got an email from Athena at least

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Speaker 1: that's her name is from Athena on on piss Myers.

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Speaker 1: You remember crazy ants and when we we discovered the

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Speaker 1: meaning of piss Myers. Uh so, yeah, Athena writes, Hi,

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Speaker 1: I've been listening to your show for a little while

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Speaker 1: and I enjoy it. I was listening to your show

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Speaker 1: on crazy ants, and it's a topic very familiar having

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Speaker 1: grown up in Texas. When you mentioned piss myers, I

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Speaker 1: had to write in. My mother used that term to

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Speaker 1: describe a specific ant that was around our home in

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Speaker 1: South Texas, Victoria. They indeed smelled like their name suggests.

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Speaker 1: A single aunt didn't smell, but the aunt hill sure did.

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Speaker 1: On a side note, if I my siblings were misbehaving,

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Speaker 1: she would call us pissmire's. Well that's well, that's great.

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Speaker 1: We have to hear a little, little, little little field

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Speaker 1: wisdom on the pissmer's here. Now, I wonder if the

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Speaker 1: ant doesn't smell like the name suggests, but the ant

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Speaker 1: mound does. Why is that? Is it just because a

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Speaker 1: single ant doesn't put off enough for us to detect,

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Speaker 1: and you've got to have a lot of them in

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Speaker 1: a close proximity, or is it because I don't know,

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Speaker 1: if something else, something else in the mound. Do they

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Speaker 1: secrete stuff? In the mound. Yeah, I guess it without

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Speaker 1: actually looking into it. My my, my, my guests would

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Speaker 1: be the former that it's just the fact that you

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Speaker 1: have so many ants in one area at a time

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Speaker 1: that it's going to you know, create a strong or

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Speaker 1: a roma because these are not like leaf cutter ants

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Speaker 1: or not cultivating anything in there. So anyway, I admire

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Speaker 1: the harshness of your mother, by the way, I think

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Speaker 1: it's good. I mean, normally you just call your kid,

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Speaker 1: you say you're being a brad or you're being a

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Speaker 1: baby or something. But now you're saying like you're being

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Speaker 1: you social insect that produces urine like smells, Well that

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Speaker 1: that's kind of like children, except that you show you

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Speaker 1: social part. They do produce produce the smell of urine

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Speaker 1: sometimes and that can't be helped. Maybe we should take

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Speaker 1: a break. Are you ready? Let's do it? All right,

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Speaker 1: we'll be right back. Thank you. All right, we're back.

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Speaker 1: We're still on the bottom of the ocean. We're still

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Speaker 1: trapped in the submarine with Carney, and he is dishing

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Speaker 1: out some listener mail for us to read. So are

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Speaker 1: you ready for this epic email we got from jess Er.

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Speaker 1: Let's have it. Yeah, Now, Jesser is a pseudonym, and

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Speaker 1: I don't know their pronouns, so I'm just gonna go

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Speaker 1: with they. Uh So, Jesser writes in to say, hey, guys,

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Speaker 1: since you were talking about sci fi stories with a

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Speaker 1: focus on Venus, I thought you might like to know

405
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Speaker 1: about the book Radiance by Catherine M. Valente. It's an

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Speaker 1: Art Deco styled sci fi novel set in a world

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Speaker 1: where early twentieth century depictions of space travel we're true,

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00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,800
Speaker 1: and you really can shoot yourself in a bullet to

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Speaker 1: the moon. It's also about the history of movie making

410
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Speaker 1: in a way, and one of the main conflicts is

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Speaker 1: a documentary that went awry on the surface of Venus.

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Speaker 1: It's a really interesting book because it takes a nonlinear

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Speaker 1: epistolary approach to telling its story. You know, in a way,

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Speaker 1: you could look at the Soviet veneera Landers as a

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Speaker 1: documentary that went awry on the surface of business, but

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Speaker 1: also dys or continues. I also recently listened to the

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Speaker 1: episodes on the Bicameral Mind and it brought to mind

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Speaker 1: one particularly old text I studied in school, called The

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Speaker 1: Instruction of Annie. It comes from about fourteen hundred to

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Speaker 1: twelve hundred BC, sometime during the eighteenth dynasty of Egypt,

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Speaker 1: and it's a moral code written in the form of

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Speaker 1: advice from father to son. It came to mind particularly

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Speaker 1: because it's both quite old and because it has a

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Speaker 1: number of things you wouldn't expect to hear from a

425
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:53,680
Speaker 1: bicamerally minded people. Instructions against lying and being sneaky, for instance.

426
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,639
Speaker 1: It even ends with what's basically a debate between the

427
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,639
Speaker 1: son and the father about why the instructions should be

428
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 1: fall load, though Julian James would probably just say maybe

429
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 1: Egyptians lost by cameralism early. Uh maybe, or I don't know.

430
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 1: I I could look at that and say, okay, I

431
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,920
Speaker 1: already don't agree that the bi cameral mind is correct,

432
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 1: despite how interesting it is, but that could be a

433
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 1: good piece of evidence against it. Yeah, I agree it. Yeah,

434
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 1: it kind of depends where you how you want to

435
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 1: cherry pick it. Really, Um, I do like the the

436
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 1: idea that that Ye James might have have argued that, well,

437
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 1: this is the case of of by of the modern

438
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 1: mind uh emerging early on uh in one of our

439
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:43,200
Speaker 1: most ancient civilizations. But but who knows. Yeah, In his defense,

440
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 1: I think he would say that, you know, the process

441
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 1: was gradual, and it happened in different places and not

442
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 1: not all exactly at the same time. But then again,

443
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,360
Speaker 1: you could look at that as a weakness of the hypothesis,

444
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 1: because if if, if a hypothesis is too accommodating, you know,

445
00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,080
Speaker 1: if you're shaping it to accommodate too many different kind

446
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 1: of evidence, that's often a sign that you're, you know,

447
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 1: you're you're you're trying to cover your butt really right,

448
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,159
Speaker 1: And yeah, you get into this area where okay, am

449
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,880
Speaker 1: I talking about an actual hypothesis at this point? Where

450
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 1: am I talking about something that is ultimately more philosophic

451
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 1: or even religious in form uh? And I think their

452
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 1: their value in those things as well. I've said before,

453
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 1: I feel like my fascination with bi cameral mind at

454
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 1: times fulfills the needs of religion for me personally, you know.

455
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 1: And it's like almost like a novel you love or something. Yeah, yeah,

456
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 1: it uh, it fills in some of the sort of

457
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:47,640
Speaker 1: I guess, uh, teleological holes and my understanding of humans.

458
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,680
Speaker 1: But anyway, the idea of like a father and son

459
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 1: having this conversation, I do like the idea of a

460
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: father saying, look, son, all these other people are not

461
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 1: exactly like us. You're gonna be tempted to lie to

462
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 1: these pe zombies because they're gonna believe you. But we

463
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 1: we just can't live like that having that sort of

464
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 1: a conversation. Man, I'm imagining what it is like to

465
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 1: be a modern human among bicameral humans. Um. That's one

466
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,919
Speaker 1: of the issues that Terence Hawkins got into in his

467
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: book or The Rage of Achilles. Oh yeah, yeah, I

468
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 1: still mean to read that, by the way. Yeah, it's

469
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 1: quite good. I'll probably go into depth more about that

470
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: in our upcoming UM Summer Reading episode. Alright, so we

471
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 1: should go on with Jesser's email. So Jesser says regarding

472
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 1: the recent episode on the relationship between gender roles and language,

473
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 1: and that would be on the alphabet versus the Goddess episode.

474
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 1: I actually took a class on gender roles in the

475
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 1: ancient world in college, the theory of the origin of

476
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,439
Speaker 1: gender roles. I learned there had to do with the

477
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 1: division of labor and hunter gatherer society. So that's somewhat

478
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: along the same lines as Shlane's ideas in hunter gatherer societies.

479
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: In the modern era, it seems like the profitability of

480
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 1: hunting versus gathering roughly determines the relative balance of male

481
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: versus female power. If there's little vegetation to be found,

482
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 1: hunting is more important and men have more power vice versa.

483
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 1: If there's little game, and in places where both are abundant,

484
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 1: roles are roughly equal. Assuming that the same held true

485
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: in ancient hunter gatherer societies, you can construct a rough

486
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 1: conceptual history where women would have been the first to

487
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 1: develop agriculture since they spent more time with plants, while

488
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: men would have been the first to developed animal husbandry

489
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,399
Speaker 1: since they spent more time with animals. The fact that

490
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,360
Speaker 1: you can use animals to massively simplify agriculture could suggest

491
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 1: that that's where the shift to male dominated societies came from.

492
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 1: The men who can harness the most animal power to

493
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: produce the most surplus crops would be able to leverage

494
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 1: that to gain political power. Of course, this is only

495
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: one theory in anyone theory may not be broadly applicable,

496
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 1: considering in how many places the patriarchal sedentary societies emerged,

497
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 1: but it's interesting to consider the ramifications of an early

498
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,159
Speaker 1: sex based division of labor. Yeah, I think that's an

499
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: interesting possibility, maybe worth more of a look and to

500
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 1: see what the evidence is. Yeah, of course. It makes

501
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,719
Speaker 1: me think a lot about the domestication of animals, and

502
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 1: you know, sort of an animal by animal breakdown about

503
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: how it occurred. You know, like, for instance, the dog

504
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: and cat model that I've seen preson it sometimes where

505
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 1: they essentially wander up to the campfire or the habitat.

506
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 1: In these cases, it seems like it would be the

507
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 1: non hunters who would be sort of on point for

508
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 1: domestication of where, of course it would be. It would

509
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 1: probably be different if it was you know, if you're

510
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: talking about some sort of an ancient cow or a rock, well, yeah,

511
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 1: if you're talking about animals that aid in agricultural production,

512
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 1: you'd be talking about like large draft animals well, or pigs. Yeah, yeah,

513
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 1: I think that's worth looking into. Yeah, or Stegosaurus is

514
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: of course, yeah, Cambodian model. U that's I'm not serious

515
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 1: that by the way, but these we we're advocating flint stones,

516
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 1: is I'm care from now on? Yes, think to the

517
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 1: flint stones. They had so many different domestic roles for

518
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 1: the animals. How did that happen. We need a strong

519
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: hypothesis for that as well. Okay, Jesser has some more

520
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 1: interesting stuff. So Jesser says, also since I'm an Egyptologist,

521
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 1: first mentioned of this, by the way, but Yesser is

522
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 1: an Egyptologist. Apparently, I've had a couple of facts come

523
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 1: to mind as I've listened to various episodes that might

524
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 1: be interesting. First of all, in comparison to other religions,

525
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: ancient Egyptian religion has an interesting inversion from the standard

526
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: notion of Sky Father and Earth Mother as primordial gods.

527
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: You know, we mentioned a lot of religions have that,

528
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: and Yesser gives some examples e g. Gaya and Ranos

529
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 1: and Greek myth Rangonui and Papa tuan Nuku in Maori myth. Uh.

530
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: But anyway, continues saying that Egyptian religion had a sky

531
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: mother newt she even births the sun god every morning

532
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: in an Earth father geb. Okay, next point, yes, or

533
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: makes Egyptian religion has a couple of creation myths. As

534
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: far as scholars can tell, this was not really a

535
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: problem to ancient Egyptian priests. They have some similarities. Often

536
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: involving some sort of primordial mound and some act of

537
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: self creation to start the cosmos. But they involve wildly

538
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: different sets of gods and varied between regions. Yet there

539
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 1: never seems to be any effort to unify or standardize

540
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: the mythology. I think that's kind of interesting, like a

541
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:36,719
Speaker 1: lack of the cannon impulse. Yeah, they're the cinematic universe impulse, right, Uh.

542
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: Next point, part of the purpose behind the creation of

543
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 1: mummies was basically to turn the body into a statue.

544
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: The opening of the mouth. Rituals used to turn the

545
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 1: mummy into a ritually charged object that the deceased person's

546
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: spirit could inhabit are similar to the rituals used for

547
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: cult statues for temples of the gods, which were similarly

548
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 1: meant to enable the gods to inhabit the statue and

549
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 1: to consume offerings. Egyptians had some interesting views on gender relations.

550
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: For example, they thought that in terms of reproduction, women

551
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 1: were basically empty vessels and that men provided all the

552
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: important elements. This is not a unique view of right, yeah,

553
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: I mean it ends up being reflected in the spermest

554
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: that we discussed and fairly recent episode It's kind of

555
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: not surprising that throughout history a lot of men have

556
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: decided that, oh, it's men who are actually the the

557
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 1: the only important part. But Yesser continues, while that sounds

558
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: rough on women, it meant women were never really blamed

559
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 1: for not being able to bear children. It was entirely

560
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 1: the man's fault. It's interesting they were also pretty relaxed

561
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 1: about marriage. To premarital sex seems not to have been

562
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: a big deal, and marriage itself was more of a

563
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 1: legal slash economic arrangement than a religious one. Women could

564
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: even initiate a divorce if they wanted to. This is

565
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 1: more recommendation. But the book The Woman Who Would Be King,

566
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: which is a biography of hatchup Sets life by Professor Karakoon,

567
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: has a really good scholarly exploration of Egyptian society that

568
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 1: sounds like a good read. Lastly, I thought the story

569
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: of inegaldy Nana would be your sort of thing. Essentially,

570
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 1: archaeologists were excavating a palace during the Neo Babylonian Empire

571
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 1: when they came across a bunch of artifacts from different

572
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: places in much earlier times, all collected in one part

573
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: of the palace. It turns out they'd stumbled onto a

574
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: museum of artifacts from earlier Mesopotamian civilizations, curated by the

575
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: Neo Babylonian princess inegaldy Nana, complete with Cunea form seals

576
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: for each artifact like modern museum labels. Also, her museum

577
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: dates to about a hundred years before Herodotus quote invented

578
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 1: the study of history. Goes to show you what good

579
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 1: publicity can do, and then yes or apologizes for the

580
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 1: length of all this. Uh says they wanted to keep

581
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 1: adding one more interesting idea before sending off, Thank you

582
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: so much for this email. This is great. Yeah, yeah,

583
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 1: I I they They really managed to pack a lot

584
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 1: in here, all right. This one comes to us from Nile.

585
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: Hi Nile from Santa Fe, New Mexico. Really enjoy the

586
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 1: show's first time writing. When you were talking about life

587
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 1: on a nuclear submarine, it reminded me of of when

588
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: I worked for Xerox in Los Angeles. I asked my

589
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 1: district manager, what was the weirdest service call you ever did?

590
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: He said, he installed a Xerox ten ninety copier on

591
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 1: a nuclear submarine. Why do you need to make copies

592
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: on a submarine. I think, well, we'll get to that.

593
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 1: So he had to take it apart and cut the

594
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 1: frame with a torch to get it through the doors,

595
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 1: weld it back together and get it functioning. If you

596
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 1: look it up, you will see that it is a

597
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 1: very large copier. I asked him, why on earth would

598
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 1: they want such a such a huge copier in a

599
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: nuclear submarine. He said, are you kidding? You have to

600
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 1: have a form too, in triplicate to take a dump

601
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 1: in the navy. Uh. It makes me think that the

602
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: modern day nuclear submarine is a lot roomy, or the

603
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 1: we might think. As for the focusing of the eyes

604
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: and the confined environment. Once I was picking a friend

605
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 1: up from prison, which tells you the kind of friends

606
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: I have. He had been in a small, combined room

607
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 1: for six months, and when he got in my car

608
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 1: in New Mexico with vast landscapes, the first thing he

609
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: talked about was the focusing of his eyes on the

610
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: distant horizon. It really freaked him out and he had

611
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: a hard time adjusting. Thanks for everything you do. Keep

612
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: up the good work. Wow, that that's kind of scary

613
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: to hear there at the end. It makes me think

614
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 1: prisoners should definitely be given windows, right, Yeah, yeah, definitely.

615
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: I mean, also, we've we've discussed on the show before

616
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 1: just how horrible solitary confinement is as a form of

617
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: essentially a neurological torture. Uh. It does a lot of

618
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: terrible things to the mind. Uh, And we didn't but

619
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: I don't think we even really got into what it

620
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 1: might do to your your visual perception. But mainly, I

621
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 1: just love the idea of a giant xerox machine cut

622
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: apart art and then reassembled aboard a nuclear submarine just

623
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: for bureaucratic purposes. I looked it up. It looks kind

624
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 1: of like Sideways refrigerator with some little like droid embellishments. Yeah,

625
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: it's a cross between the Sideways refrigerator and R two

626
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: D two. It's we really need more xeroxes in our

627
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: especially our sci fi underwater environments. Like when I think

628
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: back on The Abyss or Leviathan Deep Star six, what

629
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: these films really lack was that was a proper xerox seeing. Yeah,

630
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: they're they're making copies six pack from Leviathan, making copies

631
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:35,879
Speaker 1: That would have been perfect. Oh, he'd be the kind

632
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,240
Speaker 1: of guy who had xerox his own posterior. Oh yeah,

633
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,959
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, there has to be an eleaded scene

634
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 1: now that I think about it, you know, I must

635
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: say Carney is very excited now that we're getting to

636
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 1: the email about submarines. He must be really enjoying his

637
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 1: new job. Well yeah, and I mean he's a little

638
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,320
Speaker 1: lonely down here, so he could use a xerox machine

639
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: to hang out with oh as a friend. Yeah, yeah,

640
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,439
Speaker 1: so it looks like he is excitedly giving us more

641
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,359
Speaker 1: submarine related email. Yes. In fact, this one, this next

642
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 1: one comes to us from an old friend, frequent long

643
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: like long time UH listener mail participant Jim, Jim and

644
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: New Jersey Man. He writes some great emails. And this

645
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 1: is another good one. Jim rights, Robert and Joe. I've

646
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 1: seen dost Boot twice and been on a German U

647
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: boat twice too, but only in a museum. The U. S.

648
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 1: Navy captured German U boat you five oh five during

649
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,720
Speaker 1: World War Two. It's a museum attraction at the Museum

650
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,799
Speaker 1: of Science and Industry in Chicago. I wish I'd been

651
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: to that last time we were in Chicago. I'd like

652
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 1: to go sometimes. Yeah, well, the next time. Yeah, anyway,

653
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 1: Jim continues, I haven't seen the movie or been to

654
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: the museum in years, but from what I recall, I

655
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: visited the museum in two successive summers and saw the

656
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: movie in between those two visits. So you watch it

657
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 1: twice in a year. This is kind of obsessive behavior, Jim,

658
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,760
Speaker 1: what's going on. It's a great film, dost boot, It's

659
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: it's It's not like seeing Deep Star six twice in

660
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 1: the same year, Jim rights. My memory is that the

661
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,720
Speaker 1: movie set and match the sub very well. The movie

662
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 1: features several scenes at the captain's office, his bunk, and

663
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: the officer's mess. Uh. These are all the same small

664
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: part of the sub, which is not obvious from initial

665
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 1: viewing in the movie, but more apparent once you see

666
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: slash you know it. The space isn't much more than

667
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: a nook along the sub's main passageway where there's a

668
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,760
Speaker 1: small bunk for the captain. There's a small table next

669
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 1: to it. I can't remember if it's bolted down or

670
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 1: whether it flips down like a murphy bed. The captain

671
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: is sitting on his bunk while in his quote office,

672
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 1: several officers are sitting on the bunk during meals too.

673
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 1: I wonder if that would mess with you psychologically, like

674
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 1: if you had to conduct your official managerial duties in

675
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,919
Speaker 1: your office from your bed. Well, certainly, I guess it's

676
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: if it's slightly transformed, it might be a little different.

677
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 1: But yeah, meetings, meetings on beds are always weird. M Well,

678
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 1: but we I say that we've had a few of

679
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 1: these when we're on on trips doing live show. God,

680
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 1: You're right, it's all is weird. Yeah, you don't really

681
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 1: have a we never have like a conference room to

682
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 1: go to. I guess it's like a business area most hotels.

683
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: But if we're like running through the presentation, yeah, it

684
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 1: generally ends up like two or three of us setting

685
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 1: on one of the beds that were in the room

686
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: that we're staying in. Yeah. Yeah, it's like, Hey, Robert

687
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 1: comes in on my bed, let's talk about h H. Holmes.

688
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 1: But anyway, next time you're in a tense meeting with

689
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,280
Speaker 1: your manager, just imagine they're sitting on their bed and

690
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: I'm sure that'll undercut it. Anyway, getting back to this,

691
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: the tour when I was on it consisted of walking

692
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: through the three middle sections of the sub and you

693
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: can look into the four and aft sections too. Holes

694
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: had been cut into the hull so you don't need

695
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: to go up and down ladders. We could look up

696
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 1: into the conning tower too. It didn't feel too cramped

697
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 1: until we were told it was sixty men for ninety

698
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: days with one toilet. Technically there were two toilets, but

699
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 1: one was a food storage locker. When they first left port,

700
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 1: there was one fairly small stove right across from the

701
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 1: captain's nook. The cook had to produce a hundred and

702
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 1: eighty meals a day from it. I like how the

703
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 1: second toilet is sort of like an achievement that they

704
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: unlocked through just through eating a food, and like eventually

705
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 1: they come to that point where it's like, congratulations, survived

706
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 1: this long and you get another toilet. We have a

707
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:24,840
Speaker 1: second toilet. Oh, and I guess it was incentive structures maybe,

708
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 1: but you know, the captain pulled weight on that. It

709
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,399
Speaker 1: was like, oh, then the new toilets available. Well, I'm

710
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 1: up because I've been waiting days for this. That's my

711
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: office now. Is it weirder to to conduct meetings from

712
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 1: a bed or from a toilet? From a toilet certainly. Yeah,

713
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 1: Like even if you're not actually like using the toilet,

714
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 1: if you're just setting up on it as if it

715
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 1: were a chair, that it's got to be a little strange.

716
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,799
Speaker 1: Jim continues. The German Navy had a requirement that their

717
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 1: boats had to go from surface to periscope level and

718
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 1: under a minute. This was to hide from patrols. They

719
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: would often drill this, and they do in the movie

720
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 1: one of my favorite scenes, as the dive alarm sounds,

721
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: the off duty seamen run to the front of the boat,

722
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 1: becoming human ballast to help the nose of the sub

723
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 1: dive underwater faster. That that is, that is messed up.

724
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: You shouldn't be using the Oh my god. No, I

725
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: mean it drives home the extreme environment and you know

726
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,399
Speaker 1: the limits of the technology. Yeah, I mean it makes

727
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,320
Speaker 1: me think of like those stunt car scenes in movies

728
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 1: where somebody gets the car up on two wheels by

729
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 1: like turning and leaning real hard. Yeah. Generally, we just

730
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 1: want to be passengers in our vehicles and not some

731
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,879
Speaker 1: component in its functionality. Right. It's like imagine next time

732
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 1: you're on an airplane and the captains like, all right,

733
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: we need to get ready for landing, So everybody please

734
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,240
Speaker 1: move up to the front of the plane. Yeah, nobody

735
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: wants to hear that, all right? If one comes to

736
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 1: us from William, William writes, thanks for the podcast makes

737
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 1: my long bus commute more bearable. Two things related to

738
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,760
Speaker 1: the Sleep and Creativity podcast. First of all, you mentioned

739
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 1: a future for hotels where they may be able to

740
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,800
Speaker 1: teach languages, etcetera while you're asleep. Maybe I'm just cynical,

741
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 1: but I suspect the more likely use will be advertising.

742
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 1: Think of the money they could make selling dream space

743
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: to advertisers. That's the thing in Futurama, isn't it It is.

744
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: There's a scene where where Fry is first subjected to

745
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 1: advertising in his dream and he's he's he's outraged over

746
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 1: and he says, but you know, back in my day

747
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,280
Speaker 1: we only had advertisements like on the street, on TV

748
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 1: and in the sky, but never in our dreams. But no,

749
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I think it's perfect, doesn't he Like?

750
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 1: He has the he's at school in his underwear dream,

751
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: but then it's like very stylish underwear and it's trying

752
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: to sell him on it. Yeah, yeah, Futurama touched on it.

753
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: This listener Mail touches on it as well, that if

754
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 1: we open up a new place in our experience of

755
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 1: reality where advertising could potentially grow, then we will find

756
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 1: a way to grow it there. He continues, I have

757
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 1: four kids, and before they were born, I very rarely

758
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 1: had bad dreams, but at least once for each of them,

759
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,359
Speaker 1: I've dreamt about something horrible and tragic happening to them.

760
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 1: I wonder if it stems from anxiety about their well

761
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 1: being or a way of my mind trying to identify

762
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 1: the best way to protect them. Creativity imparirenting. Perhaps could

763
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,720
Speaker 1: dreaming be a survival mechanism in which one's mind draws

764
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 1: on extreme scenarios for things that could happen in everyday

765
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,760
Speaker 1: life and create ways to address them, Like did ancient

766
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: people dream of creative ways to hunt or what to

767
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 1: do if the mammoth suddenly turns on them? The person

768
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 1: who dreamed of of a solution got away, while the

769
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 1: one who didn't was trampled. I mean, I think that's

770
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 1: an extremely compelling way of explaining the emergence of the imagination.

771
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 1: Why do we have an imagination? I mean, that's a

772
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:54,240
Speaker 1: kind of strange thing. Do you think lizards have an imagination.

773
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,720
Speaker 1: I mean maybe even it seems kind of unlikely. Uh

774
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 1: we it seems pretty clear to me. We have an

775
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: imagination as a way of simulating scenarios without having to

776
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 1: test them out, Like you can imagine what would happen

777
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 1: based on what you know, and that allows you to

778
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 1: simulate something stupid that you might be about to do

779
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 1: and then realize it's stupid and you shouldn't do it.

780
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,839
Speaker 1: But that that applies to waking imagination. So how did

781
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 1: dreams change that? Yeah, I believe that's that's still an

782
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:25,320
Speaker 1: open question, but it's certainly one. It is addressed in

783
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: some of these models that we've looked at. Yeah. Yeah.

784
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 1: In the in the episode where we talked about the

785
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 1: usefulness or the potential usefulness of dreams, one idea is

786
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 1: that the dreams that dreams, by sort of suppressing the

787
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 1: part of your brain that sensors thought, allow you to

788
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,799
Speaker 1: explore much wilder types of imaginative scenarios, things that you

789
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 1: would never go to in your waking life, and that

790
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 1: might be useful as a way of sort of like

791
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 1: increasing the mutation rate of thought experiments, you know it,

792
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 1: doing stuff that your normal waking brain would never bother

793
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:02,400
Speaker 1: to try eye out right, Yeah, exactly. I guess it's

794
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: kind of it ends up being becoming kind of complicated though,

795
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 1: when you have when you seem to have some sort

796
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 1: of simulation that is also just clothed in sort of

797
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 1: ridiculous and garbled dream imagery. Yeah, and and unreality. Man,

798
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 1: that is a weird thing to think about dreams. I mean,

799
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 1: if you're saying that the imagination is useful because it

800
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 1: helps you simulate scenarios and and figure out what to

801
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:28,240
Speaker 1: do in the real world, why do we have dreams

802
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 1: where we simulate scenarios that were saying the laws of

803
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 1: physics don't apply, like you can fly and stuff like that.

804
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 1: That that just seems like that might not be be

805
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,359
Speaker 1: actually useful if you're trying to simulate stuff that could

806
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:41,839
Speaker 1: happen in your life. Well, unless it's more about sort

807
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 1: of very basic synaptic connections, you know. It's it's it's

808
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 1: it's like the idea of here, here's a game you're

809
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 1: going to play, but the game is preparing you for

810
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 1: some sort of combat scenario, you know, um where you

811
00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 1: know the basic skills involved or per have some so

812
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:03,479
Speaker 1: in neural connections involved. U match up to the real

813
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 1: life experience as well as the fantastic experience that you're

814
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 1: actually engaging in your mind during dreams. Yeah, I think

815
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 1: you're somewhat right. I mean, I wouldn't be say I'm

816
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 1: fully convinced by the model, but there's something to be

817
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 1: said for the fact that dreams spur you to go

818
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 1: to places with your brain that you wouldn't normally go to,

819
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 1: and as such, they might often produce imaginative scenarios that

820
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 1: are not very useful to you, but occasionally produced some

821
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 1: very valuable breakthrough. You know, they might be like higher risk,

822
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 1: higher reward types of imagination use. You know, I have

823
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 1: to admit that I don't think I've ever had a

824
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:45,839
Speaker 1: dream that I remember um or a nightmare rather in

825
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 1: which something bad has happened to my son. The only

826
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 1: thing that comes to mind is I did have a

827
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 1: dream once where I went to wake him up and

828
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 1: like the next morning and he was a teenager. Like

829
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 1: it's like he, you know, grown up overnight, which is

830
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 1: this is something bad that happened to your son. That

831
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 1: counts well, but it also seems it's like a very

832
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 1: simplistic dream extension of the idea of like, oh, I

833
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,359
Speaker 1: don't want to miss you know, my child growing up,

834
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 1: or or oh, my child is not going to be

835
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 1: you know this young forever, that sort of thing. It's

836
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,240
Speaker 1: almost like the dream is an internal poem that uses

837
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 1: metaphors and imagery to to inspire you to behave in

838
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 1: certain ways. Yeah, that's often a very like stupid, poorly,

839
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 1: poorly constructed poem, but it's more Yeah, but you feel them.

840
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 1: I mean, this is again I'm talking about the general

841
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 1: nature of dreams here that I think everyone can relate to. Uh,

842
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,319
Speaker 1: In for instance, the nightmare. How many times have you

843
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: had a nightmare that was just absolutely just terrifying and

844
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,320
Speaker 1: you just woke up and you know, maybe woke up screaming,

845
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 1: or woke up on the verge of tears, or just

846
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 1: racked with anxiety, And then when you try to explain

847
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 1: it to you know, your significant other or or someone

848
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:04,399
Speaker 1: else in the waking day, you just then realize how

849
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,840
Speaker 1: ridiculous it is. Just how you know that all the

850
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 1: fear that you experienced in the dream is completely absent

851
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,919
Speaker 1: when you just reduce it to a description of events. Well,

852
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:19,879
Speaker 1: you're much more emotionally vulnerable in dreams, aren't you. Yeah,

853
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:24,280
Speaker 1: And you're free from like the logical constraints, like Roger

854
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 1: Rabbit isn't scary and there's no reason he would be

855
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 1: chasing me with a mallet. But within the confines of

856
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 1: the nightmare, that doesn't matter. All that is, all that

857
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,240
Speaker 1: is real is the the emotion in the experience. Also,

858
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 1: I say that, but Roger Rapp is kind of terrifying

859
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:40,839
Speaker 1: when you really think about it. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah,

860
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 1: all right. This next one comes to us from Jessica.

861
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 1: Jessica says, Hello, I just finished an older episode about

862
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:50,720
Speaker 1: laughing during horror movies, and I thought it was incredibly interesting,

863
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 1: especially the science and research about laughing and smiling. There

864
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: was one phenomenon I found myself pondering over and wanted

865
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 1: to know more about. Why do people I'm generalized, but

866
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:04,399
Speaker 1: often men like to tell other people women to smile more.

867
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 1: This is something that comes up in culture a lot.

868
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 1: I've read a lot about this. Um Jessica writes. I'm

869
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:13,400
Speaker 1: a woman and I can't tell you how many times

870
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,439
Speaker 1: throughout my schooling, both high school and college, and even

871
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 1: in the professional workplace, I get told I need to

872
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 1: smile more by male colleagues, or I'm told by female

873
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,760
Speaker 1: coworkers that I have the dreaded quote resting bitch face.

874
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to put myself on a pedestal here,

875
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 1: but I don't think I've ever asked anyone to smile more,

876
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,800
Speaker 1: not not out not out of any sense of nobility

877
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 1: or anything, but just because I really don't want to

878
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:40,360
Speaker 1: see anyone's teeth. I just tell people to wipe that

879
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 1: grin off their face. I I just think I don't

880
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 1: want to look at anyone's like mouth bones. You know,

881
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:51,839
Speaker 1: it's no matter how gorgeous or ghastly. Uh you know

882
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 1: what you have there. Uh, you know may happen to be.

883
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 1: I I just I'm find not seeing them. Never forget

884
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,360
Speaker 1: your teeth or outside bones. Yeah, yeah, I just I

885
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 1: don't necessarily need to see more of them. However much,

886
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 1: whatever dental display you're presenting currently is the appropriate dental display,

887
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,319
Speaker 1: and I'm not going to ask you to give me

888
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 1: more of it. I'm sorry, I'll try to smile less. No, no, no,

889
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,719
Speaker 1: you're you're doing the right amount. But it's it's one

890
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:18,880
Speaker 1: of those things where it's I'm not gonna look at

891
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 1: someone and say, like, how well you know, I like

892
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:22,799
Speaker 1: Joe but I wish I could see more of the

893
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 1: inside of his mouth. I wish I could see more

894
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 1: of his teeth. You know, it's I don't know, Maybe

895
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 1: I just I'm not I don't worship the smile in

896
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 1: the same way that that is certainly American culture wants

897
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:36,760
Speaker 1: us to worship the smile to sort of Tom Cruise

898
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 1: Hollywood smile. You know that's the color of bleached bone. Yeah,

899
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: it just looks like my soul is hungry. Uh. Anyway,

900
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 1: moving on, So is it an aura of unfriendliness that

901
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 1: turns people off? Or is there another reason that people

902
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 1: like those around them to be smiling all the time,

903
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 1: especially if smiling is usually a sign of humor or

904
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 1: uncomfortable nous. Because I can tell you when someone tells

905
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 1: me to smile, if ever I do, it's not a

906
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:05,840
Speaker 1: friendly one. I was wondering if you had come across

907
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:08,439
Speaker 1: any discussions of these situations and your research, the good

908
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:11,320
Speaker 1: point me in the right direction for some further reading.

909
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 1: I think that's a good question that might be something

910
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,360
Speaker 1: worth revisiting. I do wonder, and this is again this

911
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 1: is without any research at this point, but I wonder

912
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 1: if there are any arguments to be made for the

913
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 1: human spile, smile, especially serving as some sort of reproductive

914
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 1: signal of reproductive fitness to say, like, look at my smile.

915
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 1: My my teeth are healthy. Therefore I am a healthy mate.

916
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 1: Though it probably on top of that you could make

917
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 1: the argument that it takes on all these various socioeconomic

918
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:44,840
Speaker 1: um uh complications as well in modern culture, because the

919
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 1: smile is is a way of saying, look, how uh

920
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 1: abnormally white my teeth are. Look how abnormally straight my

921
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 1: teeth are. Clearly I am someone of some means and refinement, right,

922
00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 1: I I've paid doctors to make me this way. My

923
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 1: soul is hungry. But again that's just off the top

924
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 1: of my head. Yeah, and another thing I know, actually

925
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 1: just saw a headline about this the other day is

926
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 1: um the idea that smiling has different meanings in different cultures.

927
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 1: Like there's this whole idea of the Russian smile. Right,

928
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 1: does the Russian smile mean the same thing that the

929
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:21,320
Speaker 1: American smile does? Or do these expressions actually have different

930
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: valences within the culture. Yeah, we'll have to we we

931
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 1: have to come back to this. I know we've we've

932
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:29,359
Speaker 1: recorded episodes in the past on the you know sort

933
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 1: of the fake smile and how you can tell a

934
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 1: fake smile from a real smile, that sort of thing.

935
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 1: But but yeah, it's it's such a it's it's such

936
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 1: an important aspect of the human experience. It would you

937
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 1: could do with some revisiting. Yeah, But also Jessica allows

938
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 1: us to be a voice of encouragement. Smile when you

939
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,279
Speaker 1: want to smile, don't smile when you don't want to smile. Yeah,

940
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 1: that's what everybody. Stretch your face unwillingly. Um. You know,

941
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 1: my I may mentioned before my my wife is a photographer. Uh.

942
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 1: And part of being a photographer, of course, is you

943
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 1: know sometimes you're you're asking people to do different things

944
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 1: with their face and their posture. Uh. My son observes

945
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 1: all of this, and then when when when he has

946
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 1: given a camera, he will do like the five or

947
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 1: six year old version of it. So he'll point a

948
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 1: camera at me and say all right, stand stand up

949
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 1: a little bit. And then they'll say, okay, let me

950
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 1: see your teeth. Show me show me your teeth like

951
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 1: it's a dentist getting out the drill. Yeah, And I'm like, no, no,

952
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 1: this this is enough. I'm not showing you any more teeth.

953
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 1: All right, I have one here. This is coming to

954
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 1: us from David and this is one of a few

955
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 1: different messages that came in via the discussion module, which

956
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 1: is it's the Stuff to Blow your Mind discussion module.

957
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:43,399
Speaker 1: It is our Facebook group where you can have conversations

958
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 1: and discuss topics with other listeners of the show and

959
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:49,360
Speaker 1: then also sometimes with with with with Joe and me

960
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 1: as well and anyway. David writes in and says in

961
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 1: the Finite and Infinite Games episode, there was a discussion

962
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:00,879
Speaker 1: of what happens in sports, in particular football when they

963
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 1: can't break a tie. I think that ended with us saying,

964
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 1: now we know we're about to get a lot of

965
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:07,799
Speaker 1: listener mail where people explain the rules of football to us,

966
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:10,399
Speaker 1: and it didn't happen. Well, this was the only one.

967
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 1: He started this one by saying you knew this was coming.

968
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:15,399
Speaker 1: I think that was the title of response. He says,

969
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:18,280
Speaker 1: I am from Sydney, Australia and our football or rugby

970
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:21,320
Speaker 1: league has had some really long games. In the seventies,

971
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 1: there were two Grand Finals final games to determine the

972
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 1: champion that finished in a draw and the game was replayed,

973
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 1: but The game I wanted you to know about was

974
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 1: a second grade grand final played before the main first

975
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 1: grade game a few years ago. They change what happens

976
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:40,280
Speaker 1: in a draw. The teams played the whole eighty minutes

977
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 1: and had a draw. The rules stated that they played

978
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 1: five minutes extra time, then if no one scored, uh,

979
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 1: they change ends and play on until someone scores. The

980
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 1: game went to the full five minutes uh, and then

981
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 1: they played another thirty minutes until finally a team scored.

982
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 1: That is one fifteen minutes in a game that has

983
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 1: limited placements and some struggle to play the full eighty

984
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 1: It went so long that it interfered with the pregame

985
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:09,919
Speaker 1: concert entertainment for the main game. In theory, that game

986
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 1: could have gone on forever, but would always remain a

987
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:16,400
Speaker 1: finite game. Yes it would. I know most will not

988
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 1: know the sport of rugby league, but it is a

989
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 1: physically demanding game with limited stoppages. It is played in Australia,

990
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 1: New Zealand and Britain, with a new team in Canada

991
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:28,440
Speaker 1: and a test match soon to be played in Denver.

992
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: That's probably about the sports eest listener mail you're ever

993
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 1: gonna hear on here. No, we might we might receive

994
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 1: some more. Okay, I know we have. We have sports

995
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:40,760
Speaker 1: fans out there. Now, we're definitely gonna record at least

996
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 1: one other listener Mail episode where the entire episode will

997
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 1: just be people explaining the rules of football to us

998
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 1: after they hear it didn't happen from this one. But

999
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 1: we'll leave that for another day. All Right, We're gonna

1000
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 1: take one last break, and then when we come back,

1001
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:58,400
Speaker 1: more listener mail. Thank thank thank, alright, we're back. All right.

1002
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:01,360
Speaker 1: What have we got, Robert? Oh, let's see, Yeah, I

1003
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,840
Speaker 1: have some more here. Uh, here's another short message. This

1004
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:07,920
Speaker 1: one comes to us via the discussion module as well. Uh.

1005
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:11,560
Speaker 1: Terrence writes in and says, the recent episode on quantum

1006
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:14,759
Speaker 1: immortality reminded me of a couple of Larry Nevins short

1007
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:18,360
Speaker 1: stories from the late sixties early seventies, All the Myriad

1008
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 1: Ways and for a Foggy Night. The former concerns the

1009
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:26,879
Speaker 1: psychological consequences of the proof of an infinitely branching multiverse

1010
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 1: not good, and the later the possibility of an inadvertent

1011
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 1: crossing over between them. So what are the consequences? Have

1012
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 1: you read these? I have not read these? Wow, I

1013
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 1: haven't read them either, so I don't know what to

1014
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:42,319
Speaker 1: say about it, but but appreciate the recommendation. Terrence. Yeah,

1015
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 1: there was some back and forth on the discussion module

1016
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:47,360
Speaker 1: about this from uh, you know, among individuals who have

1017
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:50,480
Speaker 1: read uh, these Larry Nevin short stories. But it does

1018
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:52,440
Speaker 1: make me want to pick him up because he's a

1019
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 1: He's very much an author that I've been aware of forever.

1020
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:57,560
Speaker 1: I remember seeing his name when I would browse the

1021
00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 1: science fiction section at the you know, the low bookstore

1022
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:02,920
Speaker 1: as a kid. Uh, And for whatever reason, I just

1023
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 1: I never actually read any of his work. Okay, so

1024
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:10,359
Speaker 1: let's say there were a way to prove the quantum multiverse,

1025
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:13,360
Speaker 1: to prove that, say, the many worlds interpretation is the

1026
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 1: correct interpretation of quantum mechanics, and that that actually does

1027
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 1: lead to you know, every moment, all these infinitely branching

1028
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:26,759
Speaker 1: multiverses that you're splitting off into in uncountable ways. How

1029
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 1: do you think that would change how you feel about life?

1030
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:31,840
Speaker 1: Would it change anything? Well? I guess it depends on

1031
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:34,239
Speaker 1: what you know, Like how much do you know? Like

1032
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:37,919
Speaker 1: do I just know that there is a parallel existence?

1033
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 1: Do I know what the what the differences are and

1034
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 1: like the most uh, I guess the closest multiverse. I mean,

1035
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:48,359
Speaker 1: one version you can think of it is it might

1036
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 1: encourage people to think that their choices are meaningless because

1037
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 1: every choice they make in other worlds, they've made the

1038
00:55:57,239 --> 00:56:01,160
Speaker 1: opposite choice. And so really what you are now is

1039
00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:04,480
Speaker 1: not the sum total of the choices you made from

1040
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 1: the available options. But you're just the version that made

1041
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:11,319
Speaker 1: these particular choices, and other versions of you have made

1042
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:13,799
Speaker 1: different ones. But how is that different from a lot

1043
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 1: of what we suspect about the nature of our reality,

1044
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:20,360
Speaker 1: you know, questions of to what extent we have free will? Tom,

1045
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 1: we're just we're essentially without choice anyway, And which is

1046
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 1: trapped on this this rail? Well, I mean people. So

1047
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 1: I think the scientific case for the basic view of

1048
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 1: determinism is pretty solid. There's no way you can coherently

1049
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:39,799
Speaker 1: say like, yes, I'm freely making choices and I could

1050
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:41,879
Speaker 1: have done otherwise. There's no way you can prove that.

1051
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 1: But at the same time, we at least have the experience,

1052
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:49,240
Speaker 1: the subjective experience of feeling like we are making free choices,

1053
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:52,879
Speaker 1: So in a way, subjectively it kind of doesn't matter, right,

1054
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:56,040
Speaker 1: Like you can't prove that you could have done otherwise

1055
00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:59,919
Speaker 1: in some past scenario, but it feels like you could,

1056
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:02,319
Speaker 1: and it almost seems like that's enough, right. Yeah, And

1057
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 1: I tend to suspect that if we were aware of

1058
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:11,360
Speaker 1: of that have happenings in a in another universe that's

1059
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:14,239
Speaker 1: closely aligned with what we're doing here, I think we'd

1060
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:17,000
Speaker 1: still be able to hold on to that, that feeling

1061
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 1: of of freedom and free will, that we still live

1062
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 1: our lives with that in mind. Yeah, I think you're right,

1063
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:26,520
Speaker 1: And whether we could have done otherwise or not, you're

1064
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:28,800
Speaker 1: now the person you are, and the person you are

1065
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:31,880
Speaker 1: now is a result of choices you've made. So whether

1066
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:35,080
Speaker 1: or not you could have done otherwise with the reality

1067
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:37,520
Speaker 1: that we're faced with is that you're the version of

1068
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:40,320
Speaker 1: you that made the choices you did. We don't know

1069
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:43,160
Speaker 1: whether there are other versions of you that made different choices. Well,

1070
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:46,400
Speaker 1: when I think about the multiverse approach, I tend to think, well,

1071
00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 1: and in most of those realities, I probably don't even exist.

1072
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:56,040
Speaker 1: Earth doesn't even exist. There's only a slim uh selection

1073
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:58,920
Speaker 1: in which I'm a thing at all. And you know,

1074
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:03,680
Speaker 1: I'm probably doing pretty well, uh compared to most of them.

1075
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:06,400
Speaker 1: There are probably a lot of worse realities out there

1076
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:09,800
Speaker 1: for me. Another weird thing well, yeah, I mean another

1077
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:13,160
Speaker 1: weird thing that brings up is though you are aware, say,

1078
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:15,680
Speaker 1: if the Many World's interpretation is true and there are

1079
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:22,400
Speaker 1: these branching multiverses every time there's decoherence, Um, what what

1080
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 1: does it mean to be you? Why are you this

1081
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:27,800
Speaker 1: version of you? Why aren't you some other version of you?

1082
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:30,720
Speaker 1: And are those other versions of you actually you? Or

1083
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:35,360
Speaker 1: are they something else there? You too? But they're not

1084
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:38,360
Speaker 1: the same you. Yeah, they're what Many Worlds proponents called

1085
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:41,840
Speaker 1: the edge. Well, it brings it. It's like the question, uh,

1086
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 1: if you're if you're asking like, is that really? If

1087
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:47,760
Speaker 1: that's you? Then is that you as well? This you

1088
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:50,200
Speaker 1: and another multiverse? But then the same question whom we

1089
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:53,560
Speaker 1: asked just along the timeline, Well, how about how about

1090
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 1: the you that went in to have their wisdom teeth removed?

1091
00:58:56,200 --> 00:59:00,160
Speaker 1: How about the U while you were under n st you?

1092
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:03,320
Speaker 1: Was there a you at all during that span of time?

1093
00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:06,080
Speaker 1: And then now there's this you that you are embodying.

1094
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:09,600
Speaker 1: Now that's a good question. Does the universe? Does the

1095
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 1: multiverse go on with or without you? I don't know. Okay,

1096
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:17,440
Speaker 1: we got one more email on the Quantum Immortality episode.

1097
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 1: We actually got a lot on this uh this episode.

1098
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:22,040
Speaker 1: We don't have time to read them all, but here's one.

1099
00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:25,479
Speaker 1: This also came from Hind, who have gotten in touch

1100
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:28,320
Speaker 1: with us about the alphabet and the goddess. But Hind

1101
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 1: writes quote listening to the Quantum Immortality episode right now.

1102
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 1: Just wanted to point out a slight error that Joe mentions.

1103
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:39,480
Speaker 1: Although the Copenhagen interpretation is the interpretation that's in the

1104
00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:43,000
Speaker 1: majority of physics text books, it is in fact not

1105
00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:46,720
Speaker 1: what the majority of physicists believe is the right interpretation.

1106
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:50,160
Speaker 1: There is no majority, though the Copenhagen adherents are the

1107
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:54,560
Speaker 1: largest faction or the largest fraction many worlds is not

1108
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 1: too far behind. Here's an article from Sean Carroll's blog

1109
00:59:57,440 --> 00:59:59,800
Speaker 1: about this. Also love the shout out to tag Marks

1110
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:05,080
Speaker 1: out Our Mathematical Universe, one of my favorite pop physics books. Um, So,

1111
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:09,480
Speaker 1: I don't remember saying that the majority of physicists believe

1112
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:12,400
Speaker 1: that the Copenhagen interpretation is correct. I thought what I

1113
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:16,120
Speaker 1: had said is that the majority of physicists had believed that.

1114
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:18,800
Speaker 1: But if I did say that's what they believe. Now

1115
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 1: I accept that correction. It seems to be the most

1116
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:25,320
Speaker 1: popular interpretation among physicists, but it's not the majority. It's

1117
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:28,800
Speaker 1: a it's the most popular minority. But what I definitely

1118
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:31,800
Speaker 1: meant is that you know, over over the period of

1119
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:35,800
Speaker 1: history where there have been interpretations of quantum mechanics, Copenhagen

1120
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:39,280
Speaker 1: interpretation is what gets the most attention and the difference.

1121
01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:42,320
Speaker 1: Just as a quick refresher is. The Copenhagen interpretation says,

1122
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:45,800
Speaker 1: you know, when you've got a quantum system in superposition,

1123
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:49,800
Speaker 1: it's it's sitting there in superposition until interaction from the

1124
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:53,400
Speaker 1: outside quote collapses the way of function, and then you've

1125
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:57,800
Speaker 1: got a probability of that superposition going into one of

1126
01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:02,240
Speaker 1: its definite outcome states. So the pasic example is Shreddinger's cat.

1127
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:04,440
Speaker 1: So you've got the cat in the box, and you've

1128
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:08,680
Speaker 1: got a quantum system in superposition, and something causes it

1129
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:10,760
Speaker 1: to go one way or the other, and the ideas

1130
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:13,120
Speaker 1: that the cat in the box is still alive and

1131
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:15,800
Speaker 1: dead at the same time until you open the box

1132
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:18,160
Speaker 1: and interact with it to see what's going on, and

1133
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 1: then it just assumes one of those two states many worlds.

1134
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:26,280
Speaker 1: Interpretation would say both states are continuously correct, branching off

1135
01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:29,680
Speaker 1: into different universes that don't interact with each other. Yes,

1136
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:32,680
Speaker 1: but merely by putting the cat in the specially prepared

1137
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:37,360
Speaker 1: box you created to like a branching path, the wave

1138
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 1: function never collapses into one outcome or the other. They're

1139
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:44,240
Speaker 1: just both equally real going off into different directions that

1140
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:48,000
Speaker 1: can't interact with each other anymore. But hind is correct

1141
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:51,600
Speaker 1: that that the Copenhagen interpretation appears to have been losing

1142
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:57,280
Speaker 1: ground all right. Here's another short bit of feedback from

1143
01:01:57,280 --> 01:02:00,080
Speaker 1: the discussion module, and this comes from Peter, who a

1144
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:03,479
Speaker 1: longtime listener stuff to bow your mind and also a

1145
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:08,160
Speaker 1: a VR enthusiast. Uh So I'm always on the lookout

1146
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:11,160
Speaker 1: for for Peter's feedback whenever we touch on VR, and

1147
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:14,160
Speaker 1: he was responding to the Submarine Sleep episode. He says,

1148
01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:16,760
Speaker 1: I love the Submarine Sleep episode and great points about

1149
01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:19,600
Speaker 1: VR and subs. I'd also be surprised if they weren't

1150
01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:22,680
Speaker 1: already experimenting with this. It will be better once the

1151
01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:27,040
Speaker 1: more mobile versions improve in quality, but I ideally you'd

1152
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:29,760
Speaker 1: have at least three ms by three ms space for

1153
01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:33,400
Speaker 1: them to move around in ideally more but this would

1154
01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:36,080
Speaker 1: give them a fair amount of virtual freedom to feel

1155
01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 1: like they were in a totally different world for a

1156
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:41,440
Speaker 1: part of the day. I do wonder though, if there'd

1157
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:44,480
Speaker 1: be a danger of feeling more claustrophobic if you had

1158
01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:47,080
Speaker 1: this sort of regular freedom. Yeah, that's a good question.

1159
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:50,160
Speaker 1: Do you adapt to the claustrophobic environment so that it

1160
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:53,480
Speaker 1: cuts down on your fear? Over time you become desensitized

1161
01:02:53,480 --> 01:02:55,520
Speaker 1: to it, And like, if you get to look out

1162
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:58,640
Speaker 1: windows or get to have a VR experience, going back

1163
01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:01,400
Speaker 1: to the sub is a more horror dorble thing. Yeah, yeah,

1164
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:03,040
Speaker 1: it's It's a great point. And also I like his

1165
01:03:03,160 --> 01:03:07,400
Speaker 1: point that that the virtual reality we we sometimes, especially

1166
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:09,960
Speaker 1: those of us who are not actively engaging with with

1167
01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:12,840
Speaker 1: current VR tech, we we kind of get that sci

1168
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:15,000
Speaker 1: fi vision in our head, which is somebody putting on

1169
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:17,320
Speaker 1: a para magic goggles and then drooling for an hour.

1170
01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:22,000
Speaker 1: But there is a certain amount of physical space you

1171
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:27,120
Speaker 1: need in order to then simulate greater physical space, And

1172
01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:30,040
Speaker 1: that becomes a question to like, maybe maybe there's no

1173
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:31,680
Speaker 1: room for that on the sub because you just install

1174
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:36,000
Speaker 1: that Xerox machine. Yeah, yeah, here's the question what is

1175
01:03:36,080 --> 01:03:40,480
Speaker 1: the minimum space that you could have to put goggles

1176
01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:43,880
Speaker 1: on somebody and give them the illusion of absolute freedom

1177
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:47,160
Speaker 1: of movement? Does it? Does that make sense? Like? Uh? Like,

1178
01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:49,120
Speaker 1: so if you want people to be able to walk

1179
01:03:49,160 --> 01:03:52,520
Speaker 1: around in a VR world, you could manipulate their walking

1180
01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:56,520
Speaker 1: right through the through the sensory feedback so that instead

1181
01:03:56,520 --> 01:03:58,680
Speaker 1: of walking in a straight line forever, you eventually get

1182
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:01,400
Speaker 1: them to kind of turn they think they're going straight.

1183
01:04:01,880 --> 01:04:05,760
Speaker 1: What's the minimum space to cause that to be convincing

1184
01:04:05,800 --> 01:04:08,360
Speaker 1: as infinite movement space? I don't know. I mean it

1185
01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:11,120
Speaker 1: sounds like like Peters saying it's three ms by three meters.

1186
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:14,560
Speaker 1: That seems incredibly small. Surely that wouldn't work. What don't know?

1187
01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:17,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess it also depends on like what

1188
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:21,240
Speaker 1: version of the technology you're you're imagining here? Is it

1189
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:24,760
Speaker 1: essentially somebody still like setting at a on a stool,

1190
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:28,200
Speaker 1: or is there some sort of like a uh if

1191
01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:30,880
Speaker 1: we're walking on some sort of a treadmill. I mean,

1192
01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:34,200
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think it depends on the rig too,

1193
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:37,360
Speaker 1: and just like what what version of existing or future

1194
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:40,640
Speaker 1: technology you're talking about? All right, this one comes to

1195
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:43,640
Speaker 1: us from our listener Andy, Robert and Joe. You asked

1196
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:47,240
Speaker 1: in your Quantum Immortality episode whether anyone had entered an

1197
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:52,960
Speaker 1: altered mental state after extensively restoring save states in video games.

1198
01:04:53,480 --> 01:04:56,520
Speaker 1: So this was your concept of saves coming. So you

1199
01:04:56,560 --> 01:04:59,240
Speaker 1: create these backup versions of the world you live in.

1200
01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:01,120
Speaker 1: Every time you mess up, you go back to the

1201
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:05,160
Speaker 1: to the checkpoint and start over. Uh So, Andy writes,

1202
01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:07,640
Speaker 1: I'm ashamed to admit that I once spent a riveting

1203
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:12,360
Speaker 1: six hours saves coming various Mega Man titles. The classic

1204
01:05:12,520 --> 01:05:15,200
Speaker 1: Mega Man is a great one. Uh. I then got

1205
01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:18,960
Speaker 1: into my car that I wonder where this is going.

1206
01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:22,160
Speaker 1: I missed my exit and had a moment of confusion

1207
01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:26,360
Speaker 1: as I reached out for a redo mechanism. Perhaps the

1208
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:28,680
Speaker 1: oddest part of the experience was that I was seeking

1209
01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:32,360
Speaker 1: a mechanism outside my perceptual reality. It felt similar to

1210
01:05:32,360 --> 01:05:34,920
Speaker 1: how the world expands when you step back from an

1211
01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:38,560
Speaker 1: intense round of video gaming, becoming aware of the room

1212
01:05:38,640 --> 01:05:41,439
Speaker 1: around yourself. While it was not a full blown out

1213
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:44,880
Speaker 1: of body experience, it left me a bit disoriented. Needless

1214
01:05:44,920 --> 01:05:46,720
Speaker 1: to say, it didn't work and I had to turn

1215
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:50,160
Speaker 1: around at the next exit. Thanks for the many excellent episodes.

1216
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:53,920
Speaker 1: I think stuff like this is really interesting. One thing

1217
01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:56,720
Speaker 1: Jared Lannier talks about is how one of the most

1218
01:05:56,760 --> 01:06:01,600
Speaker 1: interesting things about virtual reality is that it can change

1219
01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:04,160
Speaker 1: not only your perception of the environment around you, but

1220
01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:08,200
Speaker 1: change your perception of what your own body is. So like,

1221
01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:11,919
Speaker 1: you can put somebody in a virtual reality simulation where

1222
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:14,000
Speaker 1: they have a tail, and they can do things to

1223
01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:18,320
Speaker 1: control their tail, and that very quickly people actually adapt

1224
01:06:18,440 --> 01:06:20,840
Speaker 1: to this and start to feel like, you know, the

1225
01:06:20,840 --> 01:06:23,080
Speaker 1: the movement of the tail feels intuitive to them. They

1226
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:25,680
Speaker 1: they've got a prehensile tail they can move around and use.

1227
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:31,000
Speaker 1: And the ways you could apply this can get weirder

1228
01:06:31,000 --> 01:06:34,160
Speaker 1: and weirder, And it's fascinating that our brains are plastic

1229
01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:36,720
Speaker 1: in this way. They can adapt not only to changes

1230
01:06:36,720 --> 01:06:39,240
Speaker 1: in the environment, but to changes in the physical makeup

1231
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:42,480
Speaker 1: of the self. And I like the way this extends

1232
01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:45,880
Speaker 1: that principle not just to like having a different limb,

1233
01:06:46,080 --> 01:06:51,080
Speaker 1: but to having different sort of metaphysical capabilities, like restoring

1234
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:55,880
Speaker 1: saves states in time. It's weird that he incorporated that

1235
01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:58,880
Speaker 1: as a thing his body could do. You know what

1236
01:06:58,920 --> 01:07:02,480
Speaker 1: I mean, Yeah, update essentially updated his body schema to

1237
01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:06,520
Speaker 1: represent this, Uh, this kind of virtual body. Yeah, and

1238
01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:09,680
Speaker 1: the thing that that doesn't even have a physical manifestation,

1239
01:07:09,720 --> 01:07:11,920
Speaker 1: it would be like it. It would be like control

1240
01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:15,280
Speaker 1: over the metaphysical elements of the world itself through some

1241
01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:19,320
Speaker 1: kind of body action. And a classic example I think

1242
01:07:19,320 --> 01:07:21,160
Speaker 1: of this I brought up on the podcast before is

1243
01:07:21,560 --> 01:07:24,000
Speaker 1: when I've been in parts of my work where I've

1244
01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 1: been using documents or Excel sheets a lot or something

1245
01:07:28,240 --> 01:07:31,520
Speaker 1: like that, there have been times when I in physical

1246
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:34,280
Speaker 1: space tried to control lef you know, like I wanted

1247
01:07:34,280 --> 01:07:37,400
Speaker 1: to find something. I wanted a search function, but you

1248
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:39,560
Speaker 1: have you It takes you a second to realize, like

1249
01:07:39,960 --> 01:07:42,680
Speaker 1: that doesn't exist in reality, but I thought my body

1250
01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:48,240
Speaker 1: could do it onto physical space. Fascinating. Um, I don't

1251
01:07:48,280 --> 01:07:49,800
Speaker 1: have an I don't think I have anything directly to

1252
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:52,000
Speaker 1: compare to that, though. On the the video game front,

1253
01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:56,040
Speaker 1: I do remember when you know, anyone's familiar with what

1254
01:07:56,120 --> 01:07:58,840
Speaker 1: is Katamari Dama, say, oh, were you trying to That's

1255
01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:01,600
Speaker 1: the game where you roll up the ball of things. Yeah,

1256
01:08:01,720 --> 01:08:03,800
Speaker 1: I remember playing like when that first came out. It

1257
01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:06,840
Speaker 1: was we were all super into it and I was

1258
01:08:07,320 --> 01:08:10,480
Speaker 1: my wife and I were playing it, and then I

1259
01:08:10,520 --> 01:08:14,000
Speaker 1: went to drive to work, and I didn't actively try

1260
01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:16,519
Speaker 1: and drive my car over things and and roll them

1261
01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:18,799
Speaker 1: up into a ball. But there was like this weird

1262
01:08:18,920 --> 01:08:22,280
Speaker 1: feeling like I should be able to do that that

1263
01:08:22,760 --> 01:08:27,479
Speaker 1: thankfully quickly vanished. But but yeah, it's interesting to think,

1264
01:08:27,560 --> 01:08:31,519
Speaker 1: especially as we get into into technologies that will enable

1265
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:37,360
Speaker 1: us to take on new forms, certainly in the virtual realm,

1266
01:08:37,400 --> 01:08:40,639
Speaker 1: you know, to what extent does it become too weird

1267
01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:43,200
Speaker 1: to come back to our own bodies? Too shocking? Even?

1268
01:08:43,280 --> 01:08:47,240
Speaker 1: I mean, this makes it. Yeah, it makes me wonder if, like,

1269
01:08:47,600 --> 01:08:51,880
Speaker 1: is there anything we couldn't train ourselves to internalize if

1270
01:08:51,960 --> 01:08:55,439
Speaker 1: things as weird and non physical, as say like a

1271
01:08:55,479 --> 01:08:59,639
Speaker 1: search function, or like saves coming or you know, restore states,

1272
01:08:59,680 --> 01:09:02,360
Speaker 1: those things are nowhere to be found in the physical world,

1273
01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:05,719
Speaker 1: but we can internalize them as something that I expect

1274
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:08,799
Speaker 1: my body to be able to do. Where does it stop?

1275
01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:11,240
Speaker 1: What else could you get your body to expect that

1276
01:09:11,320 --> 01:09:14,599
Speaker 1: it can do? Yeah, this guy's limit. That's a homework

1277
01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:18,520
Speaker 1: assignment for your listeners. What sort of like metaphysical capabilities

1278
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:21,800
Speaker 1: do you think you could train people to expect to

1279
01:09:21,880 --> 01:09:24,439
Speaker 1: be able to carry out just by running them through

1280
01:09:24,479 --> 01:09:28,760
Speaker 1: some virtual reality or video games? Or something good or bad. Indeed,

1281
01:09:28,920 --> 01:09:30,680
Speaker 1: I like the idea of thinking about what are some

1282
01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:33,080
Speaker 1: of the beneficial ones. Could you one day have a

1283
01:09:33,120 --> 01:09:35,720
Speaker 1: situation where here's a video game, you play it, and

1284
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:39,680
Speaker 1: it's some in some way like enhancing your abilities to

1285
01:09:39,800 --> 01:09:42,680
Speaker 1: operate as a functional human in the real world. Yeah,

1286
01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:46,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I think about like self editing technology and

1287
01:09:46,280 --> 01:09:50,280
Speaker 1: technology that would give people more willpower. You know, we're

1288
01:09:50,360 --> 01:09:53,719
Speaker 1: we're very very impulse driven. We're very driven by habit,

1289
01:09:54,120 --> 01:09:57,280
Speaker 1: by impulse, by sort of momentary desires that are in

1290
01:09:57,360 --> 01:10:00,320
Speaker 1: conflict with our long term goals and desires. This is

1291
01:10:00,360 --> 01:10:03,400
Speaker 1: why the social media apps are so addictive and stuff

1292
01:10:03,439 --> 01:10:06,200
Speaker 1: like that. They leverage our impulses against our long term

1293
01:10:06,200 --> 01:10:09,080
Speaker 1: goals for our time use and stuff like that. Could

1294
01:10:09,080 --> 01:10:12,439
Speaker 1: you could you get people through some kind of VR

1295
01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:17,400
Speaker 1: video game training to sort of um reprioritize, to like

1296
01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:21,200
Speaker 1: prioritize their long term goals up higher in the chain

1297
01:10:21,280 --> 01:10:23,840
Speaker 1: of action. I don't know. And then how would you

1298
01:10:24,040 --> 01:10:28,080
Speaker 1: how would you incorporate a first person shooter mechanism into

1299
01:10:28,080 --> 01:10:29,800
Speaker 1: this so that it would sell enough copies? Well, I

1300
01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:31,080
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't think it has to be a

1301
01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:33,160
Speaker 1: first person shooting. I think it does it looks like

1302
01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:35,160
Speaker 1: what most of the games are, or it needs to

1303
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:37,599
Speaker 1: be um, it needs to be a sports game, one

1304
01:10:37,600 --> 01:10:39,479
Speaker 1: of the two, or a Jedi game. You know. I

1305
01:10:39,439 --> 01:10:41,559
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna make a very weird prediction. I

1306
01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:44,040
Speaker 1: think someday we will move beyond the first person shooter.

1307
01:10:44,240 --> 01:10:47,000
Speaker 1: People think that it's going to be what video games

1308
01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:49,599
Speaker 1: are forever. I think someday in the future, the first

1309
01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:52,160
Speaker 1: person shooter will just be an obscure genre that was

1310
01:10:52,240 --> 01:10:54,200
Speaker 1: very popular in the past, give way to the first

1311
01:10:54,200 --> 01:10:58,439
Speaker 1: person stabber that would be the primary uh mode of

1312
01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:01,760
Speaker 1: interface there. Huh but no, I hope you're right. I

1313
01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:04,680
Speaker 1: hope you're right, But it seems it seems to be

1314
01:11:05,479 --> 01:11:07,479
Speaker 1: stuck with us for now. All Right, we have time

1315
01:11:07,479 --> 01:11:09,360
Speaker 1: for one last listener mail. This one comes to us

1316
01:11:09,400 --> 01:11:12,800
Speaker 1: from Hope. Hi, Robert and Joe. I just recently listened

1317
01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:15,040
Speaker 1: to your episode on a Fantasia and thoroughly enjoyed it.

1318
01:11:15,360 --> 01:11:18,360
Speaker 1: While I was looking more into hyper Fantasia, it came

1319
01:11:18,400 --> 01:11:21,439
Speaker 1: to my mind that I have very vivid dreams. My

1320
01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:24,839
Speaker 1: husband has stunned sometimes at how well I can recall events, colors,

1321
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:27,880
Speaker 1: and physical sensations. I've always thought it was strange how

1322
01:11:27,920 --> 01:11:30,200
Speaker 1: when he has a dream he can hardly seem to

1323
01:11:30,240 --> 01:11:33,439
Speaker 1: remember any of it, if any at all. I thought

1324
01:11:33,439 --> 01:11:36,519
Speaker 1: to myself, is that how differently our minds actually worked,

1325
01:11:36,520 --> 01:11:39,559
Speaker 1: Like the difference between a fantasia and hyper fantasia. My

1326
01:11:39,720 --> 01:11:42,320
Speaker 1: question to you is, would you consider doing an episode

1327
01:11:42,320 --> 01:11:45,759
Speaker 1: on vivid dreams and their causes, differences and individuals, etcetera.

1328
01:11:45,920 --> 01:11:48,439
Speaker 1: I would love to hear what you could find out. Lastly,

1329
01:11:48,479 --> 01:11:50,240
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for making my work days

1330
01:11:50,280 --> 01:11:53,760
Speaker 1: go by so much quicker. I'm lucky enough to work

1331
01:11:53,760 --> 01:11:56,280
Speaker 1: at a place where i can listen to podcasts almost

1332
01:11:56,320 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 1: all day, and I'm slowly working my way through the episodes.

1333
01:11:59,400 --> 01:12:01,960
Speaker 1: The best part is feeling like I've achieved something by

1334
01:12:02,040 --> 01:12:04,519
Speaker 1: learning about the different topics at the end of the day,

1335
01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:07,400
Speaker 1: you know, other than the confused looks my co workers

1336
01:12:07,439 --> 01:12:10,000
Speaker 1: start giving me when I start ranting about things like peeps,

1337
01:12:10,080 --> 01:12:13,280
Speaker 1: pe zombies and by cameralism. I wish you all the best,

1338
01:12:13,680 --> 01:12:18,559
Speaker 1: yours hopeful. Uh, well, we're glad we can subjectively shorten

1339
01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:23,679
Speaker 1: the impression of the length of your life. No, that's

1340
01:12:23,720 --> 01:12:25,800
Speaker 1: not how it works, is it. No, well, it's it's

1341
01:12:25,880 --> 01:12:28,800
Speaker 1: it's an increase in quality. Even if it is, it

1342
01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:32,599
Speaker 1: seems to be a you know, relatistically, a decrease in quantity.

1343
01:12:32,680 --> 01:12:34,519
Speaker 1: I think we talked about this, uh. I think it

1344
01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:36,559
Speaker 1: might have been from the work of David Eagleman where

1345
01:12:36,560 --> 01:12:39,040
Speaker 1: we talked about in the Time and the Present moment

1346
01:12:39,080 --> 01:12:44,720
Speaker 1: episode where it's counterintuitive. But if I'm remembering correctly, I

1347
01:12:44,720 --> 01:12:47,800
Speaker 1: hope I'm not getting this wrong. But basically, experiences that

1348
01:12:47,960 --> 01:12:52,160
Speaker 1: seem very long in the moment are actually compressed and

1349
01:12:52,680 --> 01:12:56,599
Speaker 1: shortened in memory, whereas experiences that go by very quickly

1350
01:12:56,920 --> 01:13:00,800
Speaker 1: in the moment are lengthened in memory, so that like

1351
01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:05,799
Speaker 1: you get a retrospective lengthening of the life by having

1352
01:13:05,880 --> 01:13:09,400
Speaker 1: things that that you know, by having interesting, exciting experiences

1353
01:13:09,439 --> 01:13:11,800
Speaker 1: that go by very fast even though it feels like

1354
01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:15,360
Speaker 1: it's happening faster and while you're doing it now. On

1355
01:13:15,400 --> 01:13:18,439
Speaker 1: the topic of vivid dreams, certainly, I mean dreams are

1356
01:13:18,439 --> 01:13:20,720
Speaker 1: a topic that I feel like we'll never exhaust on

1357
01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:23,679
Speaker 1: stuff to blow your mind. Well, will inevitably come back

1358
01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:27,400
Speaker 1: to dreaming and sleep in the future, nightmares and what

1359
01:13:27,479 --> 01:13:29,479
Speaker 1: have you, So that that would be an interesting angle

1360
01:13:29,560 --> 01:13:32,479
Speaker 1: to to take you. Aside from some of these sort

1361
01:13:32,479 --> 01:13:35,200
Speaker 1: of you know, hyper state. You know, we've discussed lucid

1362
01:13:35,280 --> 01:13:38,040
Speaker 1: dreaming before, but but on a you know, much simpler question,

1363
01:13:38,240 --> 01:13:40,960
Speaker 1: what is the difference between a vivid dreamer and say,

1364
01:13:41,120 --> 01:13:44,160
Speaker 1: more typical dreamer. Do you find that you have more

1365
01:13:44,240 --> 01:13:49,840
Speaker 1: vivid dreams when you are in a more emotionally vulnerable state. See,

1366
01:13:49,840 --> 01:13:52,280
Speaker 1: it's hard to say, because I'll have vivid dreams that

1367
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:56,639
Speaker 1: are so boring that I forget them before I wake up,

1368
01:13:56,680 --> 01:13:59,519
Speaker 1: you know, like and and then sometimes a dream isn't

1369
01:13:59,600 --> 01:14:02,320
Speaker 1: that it, But it had an amazing idea and there's

1370
01:14:02,320 --> 01:14:06,760
Speaker 1: some amazing bit detail to its substance, and that'll stick

1371
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:10,120
Speaker 1: with me. Um. Yeah, it's uh. It kind of comes

1372
01:14:10,120 --> 01:14:13,160
Speaker 1: back to that basic bit of dream journaling wisdom to

1373
01:14:13,360 --> 01:14:16,559
Speaker 1: write it down immediately after it happens. And I almost

1374
01:14:16,600 --> 01:14:20,519
Speaker 1: never do that. It all becomes kind of lost in

1375
01:14:20,600 --> 01:14:23,559
Speaker 1: the shuffle, which I remind myself, I think it's supposed

1376
01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:25,599
Speaker 1: to do that. So, man, this has been an epic

1377
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:29,679
Speaker 1: Listener Mail episode. Yeah, we've we've we've covered We've covered

1378
01:14:29,720 --> 01:14:31,720
Speaker 1: us about everything. Yeah, let's see. We got some some

1379
01:14:31,800 --> 01:14:35,280
Speaker 1: good criticisms of alphabet and got us some interesting tangents

1380
01:14:35,360 --> 01:14:39,720
Speaker 1: related to that. We got quantum immortality, we got uh,

1381
01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:44,520
Speaker 1: nuclear submarines got, We got all kinds of stuff, reading suggestions, episodes, suggestions,

1382
01:14:44,680 --> 01:14:46,960
Speaker 1: and we definitely want to remind everybody that, yeah, when

1383
01:14:47,000 --> 01:14:49,920
Speaker 1: when when you when you come across some topic that

1384
01:14:49,960 --> 01:14:52,719
Speaker 1: you would like for us to cover, uh some angle

1385
01:14:52,760 --> 01:14:56,240
Speaker 1: on a past episode that that that we glossed over

1386
01:14:56,280 --> 01:14:59,400
Speaker 1: and missed. Uh you know whatever, do right into us.

1387
01:14:59,400 --> 01:15:02,599
Speaker 1: So again, we don't always have time to to respond

1388
01:15:02,640 --> 01:15:05,120
Speaker 1: to you individually or to even feature them all on

1389
01:15:05,240 --> 01:15:08,479
Speaker 1: listener mail, but we do read them all. Uh, so

1390
01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:12,080
Speaker 1: we are always open to feedback. Oh, it looks like

1391
01:15:12,439 --> 01:15:15,320
Speaker 1: Carney is getting an ELF signal from the surface saying

1392
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:17,600
Speaker 1: that we need to surface there. There must be we

1393
01:15:17,640 --> 01:15:20,000
Speaker 1: gotta go to periscope depth. All right, well let's do it.

1394
01:15:20,280 --> 01:15:22,400
Speaker 1: In the meantime, head on over to Stuff to Blow

1395
01:15:22,400 --> 01:15:24,240
Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. That's the mothership. That's where we

1396
01:15:24,240 --> 01:15:26,519
Speaker 1: will find all the episodes of the podcast, as well

1397
01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:29,080
Speaker 1: as links out to our various social media accounts. I'll

1398
01:15:29,080 --> 01:15:31,960
Speaker 1: remind everybody that the best way to to support the show,

1399
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:35,160
Speaker 1: which we provide you free a charge, is to go

1400
01:15:35,240 --> 01:15:38,599
Speaker 1: to wherever you obtain the podcast and rate and review us.

1401
01:15:38,600 --> 01:15:41,120
Speaker 1: If at all possible. Huge thanks as always to our

1402
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:44,840
Speaker 1: wonderful audio producers Alex Williams and Tarry Harrison. If you

1403
01:15:44,840 --> 01:15:46,600
Speaker 1: would like to get in touch with us directly, they

1404
01:15:46,720 --> 01:15:48,920
Speaker 1: let us know feedback on this episode or any other,

1405
01:15:48,960 --> 01:15:51,800
Speaker 1: to suggest a topic for the future, maybe get some

1406
01:15:51,880 --> 01:15:54,960
Speaker 1: listener mail featured on a future listener Mail episode. You

1407
01:15:54,960 --> 01:15:57,880
Speaker 1: can always email us at blow the Mind at how

1408
01:15:57,920 --> 01:16:09,559
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com for more on this and thousands

1409
01:16:09,600 --> 01:16:21,960
Speaker 1: of other topics. Does it how stuff works dot com?

1410
01:16:17,320 --> 01:16:24,000
Speaker 1: The biffer Man