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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by nailing potatoes.

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Speaker 1: Instead is supported by the generous contributions of people like you,

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Speaker 1: our listeners on Patreon. Visit patreon dot com slash thinking

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Speaker 1: sideways to learn more Thinking Sideways. I don't know stories

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Speaker 1: of things we sympthy don't know the answer too. Hey everybody,

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Speaker 1: and welcome again to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I

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Speaker 1: am Steve, as always joined by Joe, and once again

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Speaker 1: we've got another mystery. There's a couple more left. This

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Speaker 1: mystery was suggested to us by Brian on Facebook. Oh god,

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Speaker 1: it was like a year ago, and weirdly enough, as

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Speaker 1: I was doing all of my research, suddenly there was

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Speaker 1: a resurgence and we must have got another three or

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Speaker 1: four or five suggestions. I think I said I've said

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Speaker 1: to someone recently. You know, sometimes we find ourselves in

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Speaker 1: a situation where somebody suggested something that we're literally about

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Speaker 1: to record. I'm not saying this is one of those situations.

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Speaker 1: But I'm not not saying this is because sometimes we

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Speaker 1: just have to say, Okay, yes, we're doing it. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure you made their day anyway. Maybe probably not, probably

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Speaker 1: maybe they don't care, maybe not, maybe it's a mystery.

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Speaker 1: What are we coming next week? That right there, that's

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Speaker 1: what we're covering. I'm on it man, aw yeah, we

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Speaker 1: need a short episode. Okay, Today, what we're gonna be

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Speaker 1: talking about is we are going to be talking about

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Speaker 1: the death of writer Danny Castillo and his investigation into

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Speaker 1: what he called the octopus. He's not the only one

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Speaker 1: who calls it that know that the term of the

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Speaker 1: octopus has been around for quite a while. He really

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Speaker 1: liked the octopus. And I'm gonna warn everybody, uh to

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Speaker 1: strap in. This is kind of a eighties history roller coaster.

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Speaker 1: We're going to go through a whole bunch of stuff.

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Speaker 1: So get your penn, get paper, take notes, because it

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Speaker 1: be a quiz at the end you're gonna be glad

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Speaker 1: you did it. I'm not taking notes. I have notes

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Speaker 1: in front of He's already Yeah. He always says that

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Speaker 1: though flight. So let's talk about Danny for a minute

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Speaker 1: for a little bit here. He was a freelance writer

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Speaker 1: at the time of his death, which was in he

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Speaker 1: wrote for During the eighties, he wrote for a number

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Speaker 1: of tabloids and and some other different magazines, and then

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Speaker 1: he got on at computer age publications which reported on

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Speaker 1: personal computing, which this is the eighties. Computers are awesome

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Speaker 1: and cool and there's you know, I mean even today,

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Speaker 1: tech writing is a big thing. Yeah, he and he

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Speaker 1: worked there for a long time until he eventually he

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Speaker 1: became part owner in the publication, until he's sold off

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Speaker 1: his portion of the company in decided, I guess, I

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Speaker 1: never I don't know why he did that, but he

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Speaker 1: just he'd had enough wanted to move on, which we

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Speaker 1: all do with jobs. I guess it's interesting that he

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Speaker 1: wouldn't retain his ownership of it though, despite not writing

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Speaker 1: for it. Yeah, it's almost like it'd be easy incomes. Well,

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Speaker 1: here's the thing is, actually, I think I remember reading

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Speaker 1: that the value of the company was going up, and

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Speaker 1: it looks like he saw it as a bit of

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Speaker 1: a cash cow. Hey i'm gonna I'm gonna take the

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Speaker 1: money and run before this bubble bursts. And he sold

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Speaker 1: probably six months to a year too soon. If he'd

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Speaker 1: waited longer, he would have made a whole bunch. He

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Speaker 1: waited longer, he would have been dead. So maybe not,

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Speaker 1: Well that's true. We don't know, we don't know, Okay, Okay, Well,

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Speaker 1: so he does that, and then Cassolero goes ahead and

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Speaker 1: looking around on for something else to do. He's talking to. Reportedly,

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Speaker 1: he talks to another friend who is also a journalist

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Speaker 1: in the same field and says, hey, I want to

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Speaker 1: get back into writing. I want to find a good story.

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Speaker 1: And this friend suggests that he looked into the inns

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Speaker 1: law case, which at the time had been going on

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Speaker 1: for a decade. It's totally forgotten to history. I feel, yeah, really,

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Speaker 1: I don't hear people talking about it. And then the

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Speaker 1: way that people talk about a lot of other stuff,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of scary because it was kind of

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Speaker 1: a big thing several decades that we're not for a

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Speaker 1: long time. And frankly, I gotta tell you, it's hard

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Speaker 1: to understand. It's really hard to get a handle on

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Speaker 1: the case. It is a muddy, muddy mess. And we're

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Speaker 1: going to go into, at least to a certain degree,

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Speaker 1: the case. But I do want to stick just kind

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Speaker 1: of with Danny here. So he looks at it and

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Speaker 1: he says, hey, this this is right up my alley,

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Speaker 1: because the ins lack case is all about technology. So

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Speaker 1: he goes ahead, he starts doing his investigation, and he

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Speaker 1: started it not too long after he had sold his

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Speaker 1: portion of the publication, so it's starts doing this work.

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Speaker 1: It didn't take too long in his investigation though, for

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Speaker 1: him to start seeing and I'm using air quotes when

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Speaker 1: I'm saying seeing, or his sources to start telling him

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Speaker 1: about a lot of crazy connections to the in's law case.

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Speaker 1: They were really it seems coincidental. Does that make sense?

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Speaker 1: I mean, you two know this, but it seems coincidental,

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Speaker 1: and then it just kind of grows in spider webs. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think it's one of those situations right where if

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Speaker 1: if there was one coincidence, you'd say, oh, that's just

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Speaker 1: a coincidence, but when there's ten coincidences, you start to think, Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's a lot of coincidences to just be coincidence. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just right. I mean that was my sense was

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Speaker 1: that it was just kind of if it had just

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Speaker 1: been one or two things, it would have been nothing,

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Speaker 1: but not one or two things similar name, the same

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Speaker 1: name pops up in this and other air is you

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Speaker 1: know that kind of thing? Yeah? Yeah, And and what

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Speaker 1: the coincidences or the connections or whatever you want to

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Speaker 1: call it, it is what he began to refer to

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Speaker 1: as the octopus, which is all of these crazy connections

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Speaker 1: that seem to indicate that there's some secret network that's

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Speaker 1: responsible for terrible acts espionage, murders, assassinations, laundering drugs. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it kind of runs the full gamut here. I almost

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Speaker 1: I almost want to think of it less of a

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Speaker 1: network and more of kind of a cabal, one of

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Speaker 1: the ways I've always kind of seen the octopus. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we can call it that. The Nights templar the Illuminati,

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Speaker 1: you know, No, I mean the Illuminati would fall into

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Speaker 1: the umbrella of the of the octopus. Yeah. Well, that's

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Speaker 1: the weird part is that this is technically going to

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Speaker 1: be a conspiracy theory, and there are tons of things

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Speaker 1: that whenever you read about one conspiracy theory, you're going

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Speaker 1: to find a whole bunch of things linked to it.

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Speaker 1: And it's amazing how they all tend to have commonalities

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Speaker 1: that all run through common stories, which is, yeah, we

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Speaker 1: probably don't need to go to FIR to this, but

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Speaker 1: it's always interesting to me. I'm going to do a

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Speaker 1: little bit of it anyway. It's always interesting to me,

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Speaker 1: you know, when you it's it's similar to when you

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Speaker 1: look at ancient history, and you see all of the

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Speaker 1: depictions of things that look a lot like flying somethings

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Speaker 1: in like prehistoric times, right, and it's kind of like, okay, well,

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Speaker 1: if one one group of people would come up with

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Speaker 1: that on their own, okay, But when you start seeing

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Speaker 1: it in a lot, you kind of think, well, something

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Speaker 1: must have been you know, maybe it was meteors or whatever.

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Speaker 1: But same with this to me, where it's kind of like, well,

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Speaker 1: there's all these theories of this thing in different iterations,

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Speaker 1: so like ancient aliens. Yeah, I mean that's why I know,

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Speaker 1: that's where well with that, yeah, But with this, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's so many shadowy organizations that almost you kind of think,

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Speaker 1: can this many people be crazy? Yes, this many crazy?

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Speaker 1: But again I don't know, and we're going to keep

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Speaker 1: talking about that. I'm pretty yeah. I think that that

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Speaker 1: our brains are kind of hardwired to find patterns and things.

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Speaker 1: That's the way are the human mind works, and so

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Speaker 1: we're naturally we're constantly constructing things like this. But I

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Speaker 1: have a question for you guys, and that is this. Okay,

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Speaker 1: we've got the octopus, and then we have this other

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Speaker 1: shadowy conspiracy called the Illuminati, what happens when they when

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Speaker 1: they collide? Squid squid? Is that what it is that's

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Speaker 1: kind of curious about it? Do they have a shadow

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Speaker 1: war or they just like to get together in a

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Speaker 1: little room it's hydra. Yeah, they make some other ce

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Speaker 1: creature or do they drop treaties between them between each other?

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Speaker 1: What do they do? I don't know, No, I mean

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Speaker 1: that that's kind of what I was alluding to, is that, like,

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Speaker 1: there can't be all of the ones that are theorized,

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Speaker 1: but it's it's certainly possible that there's one of them

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Speaker 1: as Yeah, pretty sure. Alright, let's let's let's get back

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Speaker 1: to the story here. We've done enough about the balls

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Speaker 1: and crazy conspiracy theories for the moment. Anyway, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: say we're going there that we we are going to

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Speaker 1: kind of go there today. So we're gonna move forward.

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Speaker 1: So Danny began his work in we're going to jump

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Speaker 1: forward in time. We're gonna jump forward to the eighth

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Speaker 1: of August. Castelero goes to Martinsburg, West Virginia. He's going

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Speaker 1: to go there to meet several sources. He meets one

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Speaker 1: of them, for sure, but he it appears that he

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Speaker 1: was going to go to meet more than one. But

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Speaker 1: while he's at his hotel, he bumps into this guy

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Speaker 1: who he's never met before, by the name of Mike Looney.

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Speaker 1: They meet in the hallway, they start to chat, and

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Speaker 1: then later on they meet in the hotel bar that night,

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Speaker 1: and I bring up Looney because he's talked about a

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Speaker 1: number of times to validate Danny's state of mind, because

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Speaker 1: when they were in the bar, he was very chatty,

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Speaker 1: and he told him all about his research and all

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Speaker 1: this stuff that he was going to do, and it

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Speaker 1: sounds like I got the impression that they talked over

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Speaker 1: drinks for several hours. So he didn't display any kind

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Speaker 1: of abnormal behavior. He just seemed like a guy who

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Speaker 1: was really excited about what he was doing. It's interesting

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Speaker 1: some people bring up they bring up Looney because in

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Speaker 1: this kind of shadowy way, right that he just happens.

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Speaker 1: They just happened to meet, even though it was a

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Speaker 1: coincidence that both of their rooms were right next to

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Speaker 1: each other. But I guess I hadn't, you know, it

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Speaker 1: makes more sense. Of course, Yeah, they ran each other

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Speaker 1: in the halls, like of course they did. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: then they went and got a drink or happened to

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Speaker 1: see each other and connected. Fine. Yeah, but there are

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Speaker 1: those people out there who were like the looney he

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Speaker 1: just happens to meet. It's crazy. Yeah, I think it

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Speaker 1: looney had murdered him. I think that he wouldn't be

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Speaker 1: saying that he was cheerful, excited. Yeah. Well, let's move

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Speaker 1: forward to the next day. So now we're on the

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Speaker 1: ninth of August and Castolero meets a source at two

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Speaker 1: o'clock that afternoon, and then from there he goes to

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Speaker 1: a place called the Stone Crab in and has dinner

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Speaker 1: and a couple of beers. And we know this because

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Speaker 1: he left at five twelve pm, which is the time

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Speaker 1: he paid with his credit card, so we've got the

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Speaker 1: credit card record there. He then went to a pay

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Speaker 1: phone and called his family sometime around six o'clock to

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Speaker 1: say that, yeah, I went to a pay phone. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he went to a pay phone and he called his

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Speaker 1: family because they seem to have had a standing thing

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Speaker 1: where they would do dinner together, and he was notorious

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Speaker 1: for bagging out, so he was calling to say he

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Speaker 1: wasn't gonna make it. Where did he live? Oh, it's

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Speaker 1: it's uh, it's Virginia, McLean Virginia. Okay, so not too awful. Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so it's reasonable that he could have been trying to

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Speaker 1: get home. Yes, okay, So, like I said, it was

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Speaker 1: about six o'clock that night that he made the call.

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Speaker 1: He then disappears from the radar for about four hours.

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Speaker 1: He shows up about ten o'clock that evening, so it's

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Speaker 1: ten o'clock at night. He's seen at a convenience store,

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Speaker 1: which is it's either next door it's right next door

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Speaker 1: to his hotel. I think he was staying at a

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Speaker 1: shared in, remember correctly. Yeah, he goes in, he wants coffee,

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Speaker 1: He has to wait for the coffee to be made,

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Speaker 1: gets a cup of coffee, and then he walks back

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Speaker 1: to his hotel. Interesting. I'm sorry, it's just interesting to me.

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Speaker 1: Most hotels in the lobby have free coffee, especially Sheridan's

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Speaker 1: twenty four hours a day, So it's interesting that he

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Speaker 1: felt like he had to go to the Communian store

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Speaker 1: to pay for coffee instead of just walk the extra

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Speaker 1: like the coffee they had. Yeah, I mean it wasn't good,

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Speaker 1: but the convenient store coffee going to be that much better.

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Speaker 1: Most hotels have coffee out to a certain point in

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Speaker 1: the day, but I don't I mean, do they always

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Speaker 1: have conn Not always? I guess that's fair. I I

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Speaker 1: just always assumed they have coffee in a lot, because

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Speaker 1: you know, if you get in late and whatever. I

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Speaker 1: don't know what he was doing drinking coffee at ten pm, though,

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Speaker 1: I don't know because it's a little weird he's going

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Speaker 1: to stay up and write. I mean, it makes sense

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Speaker 1: to me that if he had, especially if he had

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Speaker 1: met with a source in that four hours, which is

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Speaker 1: totally possible that he did, or he met a source

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Speaker 1: at two o'clock, right, but that it's possible that he

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Speaker 1: had another source that he managed to meet with in

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Speaker 1: those four hours that he went missing. Maybe because he

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Speaker 1: did that bagged out on him on the day before

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Speaker 1: the eight he was supposed to meet a source who

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Speaker 1: just flaked on, right, And I wouldn't necessarily come forward

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Speaker 1: if I was a source that was giving information about

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Speaker 1: something like this and had seen him in those four

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Speaker 1: hours and then he showed up dead close after that,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't necessarily be like, oh, yeah, I was with

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Speaker 1: him four hours. Probably not, but it makes sense to

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Speaker 1: me that he would be going back to write that

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Speaker 1: he would be inspired, or even if it was just

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Speaker 1: based on the source earlier, that he would be trying

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Speaker 1: to stay up and collect his thoughts and all that stuff.

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Speaker 1: Maybe maybe, I don't know. I mean, it's it's peculiar

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Speaker 1: because you know, when he was at the Stone Crab

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Speaker 1: in he ate dinner and he had a couple of

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Speaker 1: beers I think it was bud Lights or something like

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Speaker 1: that he was drinking. So he's drinking a couple of

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Speaker 1: beers and then four hours later he's having some coffee. So,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I can see why he's waking himself up.

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Speaker 1: But do you not do that? How did I start

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Speaker 1: drinking beer? I don't start drinking he was, so it

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Speaker 1: wasn't like he was a young guy. Sure, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It just that makes sense to me. Okay, well, we're

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Speaker 1: trying to sober up. We're going to move past that,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to move to the next day, which

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Speaker 1: is August ten. It's twelve thirty in the afternoon and

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Speaker 1: the maid enters his hotel room and she finds Danny

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Speaker 1: dead in the tub. Sorry to keep interrupting, when was

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Speaker 1: he meant to check out? Do you know? I don't

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Speaker 1: I'd never have seen that anywhere to either. Stupid amount

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Speaker 1: of reading that and I have not seen anywhere that

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Speaker 1: ever said he was expecting to check out yet yeah,

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Speaker 1: I haven't either. It's maybe that he wasn't expecting to

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Speaker 1: check out for another day or too hot, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: But the thing is, the maid comes in, she finds

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Speaker 1: him in the tub. His wrists have been slit. There's

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Speaker 1: the places covered in blood, the bathroom, it's all over

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Speaker 1: the walls, the tub in the water, all over the floor.

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Speaker 1: There's towels soaked in blood underneath the sink, like it's

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Speaker 1: not a pretty scene under the sink on the floor. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so it's just like it wasn't the impression there could

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Speaker 1: have been towels on the floor that the blood soaked

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Speaker 1: into potentially, Yes, yes, that is absolutely a possibility. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I just need to clarify that because I think that's

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Speaker 1: going to come into play later. Well. And no, that's

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Speaker 1: a great thing because I've never really gotten any good

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Speaker 1: photos of the crime scene and the descriptions they leave

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Speaker 1: a lot to be desired. Yet the descriptions you get

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Speaker 1: of this crime scene aren't that great, And a lot

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Speaker 1: of that is because it is not considered a prime scene.

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Speaker 1: It's considered the scene of a suicide. I think there

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Speaker 1: are two reasons, right, that reason, and then also there's

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Speaker 1: always that reason of hoping to spare people the trauma

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Speaker 1: of really detailed descriptions of how horrific a suicide it

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Speaker 1: was orme. But there are definitely some things that are

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Speaker 1: are pointed out that give me some question marks for sure. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: now the coaster, for one thing. Well, let's that's a

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Speaker 1: good thing to bring up, Joe, And let's bring up

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Speaker 1: all of the stuff that's in the room. So there's

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a laundry. Listen, we're gonna go

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Speaker 1: through here in the bathroom itself, so not in the

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Speaker 1: tub with Danny, but in the bathroom, the police find

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Speaker 1: a bottle of red wine that's half full. They find

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Speaker 1: an ashtray sitting on the toilet and smoke. Was he

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Speaker 1: a smoker? You know? Again, I don't know. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: We've never seen reference to the fact of if he

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Speaker 1: was or was not a smokers. The nineties, I mean,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people still smoke. So I've got a

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Speaker 1: guess that if he's got an ashtray in the bathroom,

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Speaker 1: with him. He's a smokers, because that's what smokers do

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Speaker 1: when they get in the bath. They opened the window

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Speaker 1: and you have a cigarette drunk or if you're drunk.

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Speaker 1: But we don't know if there's any there were any

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Speaker 1: butts in the ash tray. No, no, again, never referenced.

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Speaker 1: It's the ash tray, but not the contents of said

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Speaker 1: ash tree. Also in the bathroom itself is broken glass.

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Speaker 1: From what I don't know. I okay, I got the

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Speaker 1: bit about the broken glass. There's a guy named Ken Thomas.

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Speaker 1: He wrote the book The Octopus. He went out, he

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Speaker 1: picked up all of Castolero's notes, he went through it all,

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Speaker 1: and he reconstructed all of his research and then he

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Speaker 1: built on the theories from there and then put out

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Speaker 1: a whole new book. And he didn't do it himself.

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Speaker 1: There was another guy, but the addition that I had

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Speaker 1: read was mainly under his name. But he's the only

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Speaker 1: place that I've seen that references this other piece of

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Speaker 1: broken glass. And I don't know what it is because

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Speaker 1: I was rereading this today going wait, where the hell

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Speaker 1: was it? Broken glass? What was it? I can't All

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Speaker 1: it is is broken probably well, hotels in the bathroom

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Speaker 1: they usually have a couple of glasses, and that's that's

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Speaker 1: probably he said he knocked over the stupid cheaper hotel glass. Well,

331
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Speaker 1: it's hard to tell. Yeah, it's hard to tell with

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Speaker 1: that level, with a Sheridan level hotel. Nowadays it's all plastic, right,

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Speaker 1: it's just the plastic cups, like solo cups or whatever.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if in the nineties they had actual glasses,

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Speaker 1: glasses glass, remember that in most hotels up until i'd

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Speaker 1: say the last decade. Okay, okay, see, and that's good information.

337
00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,359
Speaker 1: I was a kid, so I don't. I hate to

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Speaker 1: sound like I'm like like a snob or anything like that,

339
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,320
Speaker 1: but I still stay in hotels occasionally even these days

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00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,160
Speaker 1: that have glass in there. No, I do too, Yeah, certainly,

341
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Speaker 1: But I'm just thinking there are different levels of hotels,

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Speaker 1: and nicer ones always have glass, and the kind of

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Speaker 1: crappier ones very rarely do. So I just didn't know.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it was glass, Maybe it was the broken glass

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Speaker 1: from a wine glass or something. I don't know. Again,

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Speaker 1: don't know. Let's continue on with what was there in

347
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Speaker 1: the tub. So this is in the tub with the body,

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00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:14,720
Speaker 1: they find a two plastic trash bags, which I don't get.

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00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,800
Speaker 1: I don't understand. There's a single edge razor blade which

350
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:23,680
Speaker 1: makes sense, a can of Old Milwaukee that really doesn't

351
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:28,840
Speaker 1: make sense, why would anybody drink that? And a paper

352
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:32,440
Speaker 1: coasters Joe had mentioned a little bit ago. They also,

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Speaker 1: this is another weird thing. They find a shoelace tied

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00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:44,960
Speaker 1: around his neck, which is just weird. Again, nothing the shoelace,

355
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,040
Speaker 1: I know that. I think I read it in The Octopus,

356
00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,720
Speaker 1: and I swear I've seen it in a number of websites.

357
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,200
Speaker 1: You know, somebody's gonna yell. I'm pretty sure I remember

358
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Speaker 1: seeing it on the wiki, but it may not be

359
00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,120
Speaker 1: or maybe I don't know, but I know I've read

360
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,240
Speaker 1: it in more than one place. It could have just

361
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Speaker 1: been a necklace. I mean, I've seen guys with necklaces

362
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,159
Speaker 1: that really kind of look like shoelaces. It was the

363
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,439
Speaker 1: we Now, the terrible thing for the investigation here is,

364
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,199
Speaker 1: of course, that what does what do the police do

365
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,439
Speaker 1: when they get there? They drained the tub by to

366
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Speaker 1: drain the tub, I mean, they pulled the plug. Why

367
00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,560
Speaker 1: they don't save any water, They don't strain it to

368
00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:28,320
Speaker 1: try and catch anything. I don't know why other than

369
00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:32,000
Speaker 1: they just went he did it himself. Why would we bother?

370
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:34,920
Speaker 1: The only thing I can I can or they're under

371
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:40,520
Speaker 1: the pair exactly. Maybe this is gonna happen this entire story.

372
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,480
Speaker 1: I can tell you what about the maid. This is interesting,

373
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Speaker 1: you know, I can kind of explain away some of

374
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:52,439
Speaker 1: this stuff. I guess. I mean, it doesn't it's not

375
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,920
Speaker 1: consistent with what we've heard about his mood and state

376
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,040
Speaker 1: of mind around that time. Suicide is not absolutely right,

377
00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:01,160
Speaker 1: but but in a into that, you know, I can

378
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:03,840
Speaker 1: kind of say, Okay, they found two plastic trash bags. Okay,

379
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,520
Speaker 1: maybe he tried to suffocate himself before. Yeah, maybe he

380
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,439
Speaker 1: just tried to and it didn't work, so he just

381
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,119
Speaker 1: you know, dropped it in the tub with him. I

382
00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,640
Speaker 1: don't know about the coaster. Maybe the coaster was on

383
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:20,840
Speaker 1: the I'm sorry, I'm just going there. Yeah, maybe it was,

384
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,119
Speaker 1: you know, with the beer and that he like flailed

385
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,600
Speaker 1: after he cut himself and actually knocked it in. It

386
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:28,360
Speaker 1: could have been the source of the broken glass. He's

387
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:30,600
Speaker 1: got a glass of something sitting on the edge of

388
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 1: the tub on the coaster and the beer can apparently

389
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:35,760
Speaker 1: or maybe, but maybe he didn't want to drink out

390
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:37,280
Speaker 1: of can. I know people who don't drink out of cans.

391
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:38,720
Speaker 1: They don't want to drink out of can. So maybe

392
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:40,760
Speaker 1: he had it in a glass and was pouring the

393
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,879
Speaker 1: can into it. I don't know. I just think that

394
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:45,600
Speaker 1: was the first place my mind went to when I

395
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,320
Speaker 1: heard about the plastic bags, was, oh, well, he probably

396
00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,240
Speaker 1: was trying to asphyxiate himself or somebody was trying to

397
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 1: make it look like he as fixated himself, or somebody

398
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:58,120
Speaker 1: did asphyxiate himself him and then because risk, but that's

399
00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,359
Speaker 1: where my mind goes with the trash bags. Well, it

400
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 1: might have been that. You know, he planned after he

401
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,160
Speaker 1: slid his wrist, he planned to bag up his hands

402
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,640
Speaker 1: so that wouldn't it wouldn't make a huge mess. It's

403
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,840
Speaker 1: a tub of water. Yeah, but gonna start, you gotta

404
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,520
Speaker 1: start squirting blood all over the place. There was blood

405
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,639
Speaker 1: on the walls everywhere. Let's let's talk about that and

406
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,200
Speaker 1: then we'll go into some of this stuff to try

407
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,840
Speaker 1: and flesh it out. Not to make a terrible pun,

408
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:27,359
Speaker 1: but he had. Danny had over a dozen cuts in

409
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,200
Speaker 1: his wrists, so he cut both risks. The medical examiners

410
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,520
Speaker 1: said there were seven. This drives me crazy every time.

411
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 1: It's not an exact count on both risks, which is infuriating,

412
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 1: but it is seven or eight cuts on the right

413
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:45,320
Speaker 1: wrist and three or four cuts on the left. The

414
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 1: medical examiner also said that the cuts were much deeper

415
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 1: than you would normally see in a suicide. There was

416
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,639
Speaker 1: and there was no hesitation marks, and there's a lot

417
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,680
Speaker 1: of cuts. That's a lot of that. And the examiner

418
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,200
Speaker 1: said he didn't know how he could have continued on

419
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,960
Speaker 1: through the sheer pain based on how deep the cuts were.

420
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 1: And by the way, it was Danny right handed or

421
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,080
Speaker 1: left handed, I don't know, never looked that up, didn't

422
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 1: even think to look that up. I think he was

423
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 1: right handed. Guessing from this, but why it's eight right wrist? Yeah,

424
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 1: if you're yeah, if you're gonna if you were going

425
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,480
Speaker 1: to slash your wrist, you almost if you're right hand dominant,

426
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 1: you're probably gonna cut your left wrist first. Right, He

427
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,439
Speaker 1: had the most cuts on the right wrist. Right, because

428
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 1: he's he's cut himself on the left wrist. He's already

429
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 1: starting to lose blood at this point. He's probably getting

430
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 1: light headed, and then with his left hand, he's not

431
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,159
Speaker 1: as dextrous, and he's also lightheaded because he's losing blood

432
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 1: where you're going, you know. And and also he's his

433
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 1: left handed in all kinds of pain, so that may

434
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 1: be cause it's a dispassed out a little bit, So

435
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,400
Speaker 1: that would explain. But that would seem like there would

436
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 1: be hesitation marks there where I know that you would

437
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,719
Speaker 1: kind of you would be stuttering with it almost on

438
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 1: your left when you're cutting your left wrist, yeah, or

439
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:03,159
Speaker 1: that if you're losing blood and you're kind of you know,

440
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:07,120
Speaker 1: you're you're stuttering. You're not. It's not going to be nice. Perfect,

441
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 1: That was a weird way to refer to that. I'm sorry, Perfect,

442
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 1: It's not going to be those clean cuts that are

443
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 1: really really deep, especially because they didn't find any any

444
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:19,880
Speaker 1: pain killers or anything in his system, right, they weren't

445
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 1: drugs or anything. Now, let's um, let's talk about that

446
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 1: for a second. Okay, So we know that that afternoon

447
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 1: he went out and when he had dinner, he had

448
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,640
Speaker 1: a couple of beers and then he came back. We

449
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 1: know that he had a can of beer in the

450
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 1: tub with him, and apparently half a bottle of wine

451
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 1: and half a bottle of wine. When they did the autopsy,

452
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:45,159
Speaker 1: they found that in his system he didn't have alcohol.

453
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 1: How much blood was left in his body, by the way,

454
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 1: enough to test apparently, I can't. I don't remember. I

455
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,919
Speaker 1: think it wasn't a blood test that they couldn't just

456
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 1: use a rank They did tissues him, yes and so,

457
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,439
Speaker 1: but presumably they would have looked at the contents of

458
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 1: his stomach as well, I would imagine, so he would

459
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:12,919
Speaker 1: have also metabolized some of that before he died. He

460
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 1: had at dinner. But he had some a seat amnifit

461
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 1: in his system from some Thailand. All three that he

462
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,360
Speaker 1: had taken, but something like negligible, right, A normal dose? Yeah,

463
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 1: nothing major he had. He had a antidepressant in his system,

464
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,400
Speaker 1: but it was such a small amount of the antidepressant

465
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,640
Speaker 1: that they can't They couldn't even tell what it was specifically,

466
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: just oh, this is an antidepressant. We don't know which

467
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 1: one it is because yeah, I couldn't figure it out. Okay,

468
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 1: So no booze Thailand all. It's weird that he had

469
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 1: no booze. I know. This was the weirdest part. On

470
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 1: the antidepressants, anybody, anybody know what antidepressant he was taking.

471
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 1: He had been prescribed in antidepressant several years prior, and

472
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 1: it was a very small dose of it, and they

473
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: don't know. Nobody has been able to figure out if

474
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: what he had taken was from that not really sure,

475
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,400
Speaker 1: or if if it had been a recent I mean

476
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 1: that stuff kind of sticks around in your system sometimes, true.

477
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 1: Certain certain things stick around in your system. True. And

478
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 1: again depending on what they were testing, if it were

479
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 1: more of a tissue thing, that stuff is going to

480
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 1: stick around on your tissues certainly more then it's gonna

481
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 1: you know, your blood stream or anything like that. So

482
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 1: that'd be the other question too, would be how long

483
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: ago they think the dose was taken and they're still

484
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 1: taking it daily or well? And I know that a

485
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 1: lot of people will be hearing what we're saying and

486
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 1: they're going to be going, well, how do you not know?

487
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: What do you mean? And the problem is is there

488
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 1: is a ton of conjecture on this point, so much

489
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: has been written about it. When you dig into this

490
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 1: case and it is all over the map. So that's

491
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: why I know, I we've had this kind station before.

492
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 1: I don't want to say it was this because there's

493
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 1: no way and you know, additional to that, as you

494
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:12,400
Speaker 1: were saying it was ruled a suicide case closed, they

495
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 1: the investigation was not thorough. They just kind of assumed

496
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 1: that it was what it looked like and that was it.

497
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 1: And so a lot of things got missed. You know,

498
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 1: they certainly didn't dust for Prince, for instance. They didn't

499
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 1: do a lot of the things they would do if

500
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 1: they encountered this and thought, oh this is this is

501
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: a murder. And it was ruled a suicide twice. Yeah,

502
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: because the first time it was ruled and a stink

503
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: was raised, and so they went ahead and the medical

504
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: examiners checked the body again, somebody else did another examination

505
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 1: and then Ken said, no, it was how long after

506
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 1: the death was the second one. I wonder if that went,

507
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 1: if the police and medical examiner records are still around,

508
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 1: or if they've been thrown away by this time, well

509
00:27:55,160 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: this was the suicide. I you know, I don't know

510
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 1: what West Virginia law is for how long they have

511
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 1: to keep those kind of records. Yeah. I guess it's

512
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: just interesting to me that a medical examiner would say

513
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: something like these cuts are deeper than anyone would ever

514
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 1: expect from a suicide. There's no hesitation marks, and I

515
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,360
Speaker 1: don't know how he could have kept cutting himself from

516
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: the pain, but he definitely just kept cutting himself. To

517
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: be fair, I don't think the person that made that statement. Actually,

518
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: I'm almost positive the person that made the statement of

519
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 1: I don't know that these are way too deep and

520
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: the person who judged it a suicide were not the

521
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 1: same person. There were two separate people that made those states.

522
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: And there was a note too that helped people think

523
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 1: that it was a suicide. Right, Yes, there was so

524
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: Casslero did. He did leave a note, and it was

525
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: a really short note, was a handwritten It was tewritten,

526
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: handwritten absolutely, and it was his handwriting, his handwriting on

527
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: a legal pad of his sitting. I think it was

528
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: on the nightstand or on the desk, one of the two.

529
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: But Penn was there. It was all, It was all him.

530
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: The note read to those I love the most, Please

531
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 1: forgive me for the worst possible thing I could have done.

532
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: Most of all, I'm sorry to my son. I know

533
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 1: deep down inside that God will let me in end

534
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: of note. Yeah, that sounds like a suicide note. It

535
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 1: really does it. It totally totally sounds like a standard

536
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: suicide note. And there's more about a lot of these

537
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 1: things that we've talked about. We're going to get into them,

538
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: but I want to now, and this is gonna be

539
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 1: a weird case because we're gonna turn away from the

540
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: subject for a good little bit here and we're gonna

541
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: now start running down a completely different path. So the

542
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 1: first thing we're going to talk about is the one

543
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: of the first things that got Danny's interest, which is

544
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 1: the in law case. And you'll see it referred to

545
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: as ins law or Promise, and I'll give you the

546
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: spelling on that in a minute, because it's not the

547
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: regular spelling of Promise was a company. Promise was their

548
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: product exactly. So in his law stands for Institute for

549
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: Law and Social Justice, which was a company. Devon's rolling

550
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: your eyes. It's just I mean, like knowing the product

551
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 1: they made and knowing what they may or may not

552
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 1: have done. It's just like you, guys, that's a bad name.

553
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: It was the seventies. It's a bad name, bad people.

554
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: It was. Yeah, it was a company that was started

555
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy four by a guy named William Hamilton's.

556
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: He was a former n s A employee. He also

557
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: evidently contracted with the CIA for a while. When he

558
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: got out of the government sector and he started his

559
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: own business, he created a piece of software which called PROMISE.

560
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 1: PROMISE stands for Prosecutors Management Information System. It's a people

561
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 1: tracking program. Okay, here's I'm gonna I'm gonna just try

562
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,239
Speaker 1: and summarize this the best way I can in the

563
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 1: simplest language, because this piece of software is kind of complex. Basically,

564
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: every legal arm would use a different database and have

565
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: people logged in it, and in the seventies, those things

566
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: were not connected in any way, shape or form. So

567
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 1: if the FBI wanted to look for you, they couldn't

568
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 1: look in the local law enforcement database to call, or

569
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: had to call or do or send a letter or whatever.

570
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: Promise was a way to connect all of those databases,

571
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: regardless of what their OS was. Apparently, I get the

572
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: feeling that is because there was very simple os is.

573
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 1: These things still worked on computers that were the size

574
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: of bookcases, big bookcases. So it wasn't the it wasn't

575
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 1: the most evolved computer. I mean, we're still talking about

576
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: the late seventies computing is not amazing sing yet. Yeah,

577
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: I got to say, as a as a former coder,

578
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 1: I'm kind of amazed that anybody could write a piece

579
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: of software that could actually do this. Yeah, I mean,

580
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 1: leave it, leave it to a former an essay, let's

581
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: be fair. I mean really know they however, they went

582
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: about it and made that work. It is an amazing accomplishment.

583
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: And then they upgraded it, right, they managed to upgrade

584
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 1: it for they did a lot of things. So first off,

585
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 1: what happens here is before we get to the upgrade,

586
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 1: is you need to understand that ins Law was essentially

587
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: funded because it was a not for profit company basically

588
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: funded entirely by the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, which is

589
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 1: a government body. It doesn't exist anymore, but that was

590
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: the government body that paid them all, paid all their bills. Well,

591
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: some copyright rules win in effect on the first of

592
00:32:54,920 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 1: January eight which said that any at all software created

593
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 1: prior to that date was in the public domain, but

594
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: any software created after that was not in the public domain.

595
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: But I mean you could sell it and license it,

596
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: but you just couldn't take it and use it. That

597
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: makes sense. That's keeping up with the times it is, well,

598
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 1: this is and what I'm about talking here. We totally

599
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 1: understand this today because this is how software works now,

600
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 1: but this is not the way you saw. Nobody understood

601
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: or had I shouldn't say understood, but they hadn't gone

602
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 1: down the road yet to know what this was gonna

603
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: look like in terms of selling and licensing software because

604
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: it was also new, very new. Yeah, it's like it's

605
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 1: like the debate. I would frame it like the debate

606
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: with three D printing. Right now, you can go and

607
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: download the three D printing matrix for like almost anything,

608
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 1: and pretty soon that's going to have to start being

609
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: regulated because you can't. You wouldn't download a car, you guys, right,

610
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: It's going to be kind of hard to regulate that though, certainly,

611
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: but there will be there will certain there will be

612
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: more of a process probably for that. And I want

613
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: the Feds to know that I have not red printed

614
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 1: any kins car or cars, a computer or two, but

615
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,839
Speaker 1: nothing else, nothing else. Yes, anyway, That's how I would

616
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 1: kind of frame it is there's always that new horizon,

617
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 1: and the laws are pretty slow to catch up to that.

618
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: Usually this is when it caught up well, and you know,

619
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 1: of course, the US government, liking Promise, wants to continue

620
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 1: to use it, so they go ahead and they get

621
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 1: a license for it. The license they get, though, it's

622
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 1: a basic user license, that means that they don't have

623
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: the they're not um entitled to make any changes or

624
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 1: modification of the software, and they're also not allowed to

625
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: distribute it. Again, like we talked about before, very very

626
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 1: common stuff for US today. All right, I'm sorry, just

627
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 1: does this side note. It's always baffling to me that

628
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 1: the US government doesn't just develop our own stuff, like

629
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 1: they have a lot of programmers. Why don't you just

630
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: like make your own software instead of buying stuff from

631
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: some maybe kind of shady third party. You know, I

632
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 1: think they've found that it's much more efficient to go

633
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:19,280
Speaker 1: to the market and get those things yourself. It really

634
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: I don't know about Well, yeah, you just don't like Promise.

635
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:27,320
Speaker 1: I just don't. I really just don't promise, Okay. I

636
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 1: tend to think that the capabilities of Promise maybe perhaps

637
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: have been exaggerated just a little bit. I don't think

638
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 1: that's actually the case. I think that it was the

639
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,800
Speaker 1: first of its kind and it was revolutionary, and that's

640
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 1: what the big deal was. It probably wasn't that great,

641
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 1: but it was the first which made it amazing. I

642
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: really think that's what gave it its toe hold and

643
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: what started this whole thing that we're about to go

644
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 1: into here, because what you folks at home need to

645
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 1: know is that in one the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration,

646
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: uh they were, they were dissolved. It went away, it

647
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: was no more. At which point in his law realized

648
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,919
Speaker 1: that they needed to make money, so they went from

649
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 1: a nonprofit to a for profit model, and at the

650
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 1: same time they upgraded promise to enhanced promise. Great naming thing.

651
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 1: But the thing that they did is again these are

652
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: really old computers. They went from sixteen bit to thirty

653
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 1: two bit in their in their software and it was

654
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 1: a great leap forward. Again, US government, this is awesome.

655
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 1: We wanted, we're totally going to make a contract with you,

656
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: which they do. They make a contract that is worth

657
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 1: nine point six million dollars in money, and they're going

658
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 1: to pay that money out over the course of three

659
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 1: years too. In his law. Now, and this is the

660
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 1: thing I don't quite understand is that they're not just

661
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 1: buying the software, they're paying them to develop the software. Correct,

662
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 1: they were doing. There's a lot of things. There was

663
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 1: maintenance things. There's a lot of stuff in the contract

664
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 1: that it's minutia that I don't want to go into

665
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 1: because again, in law case, what we're I mean, we

666
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: still got a lot to go through and this thing

667
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 1: took twenty years almost to settle out there. But when

668
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 1: they signed this contract, the overview is like, not only

669
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 1: are we getting the software, but also you will continue

670
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 1: to develop it and you will provide support for it

671
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 1: over the span of years. Right, Just to be clear,

672
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,399
Speaker 1: it's not like when you go buy the Adobe Suite

673
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 1: and they're like, this is what you get. Yeah, exactly,

674
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: there's a phone that we won't answer, or you can

675
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 1: click on the chat button. But by the way, all

676
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,720
Speaker 1: the representatives are busy because there are no representatives. Yes

677
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: that okay, we all use Adobe Suite apparently, you know,

678
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 1: I think it gets me about when you click on

679
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 1: the they say no representative, so busy is I know

680
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: those representatives are bots for Christ's sakes. Yeah, So anyway,

681
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 1: I just thought that was probably worth mentioning that it

682
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 1: wasn't just like buying the software, you're also getting the development.

683
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: It's a service package. As well. Absolutely, And this what

684
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 1: happens from here is there's a lot of contention around it.

685
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 1: Like I said, it's a huge case, twenty years in

686
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 1: the making, but I'm going to give you kind of

687
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: the version. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly where I'm headed. The

688
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 1: Department of Justice is one of the people who are

689
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 1: one of the groups that was using Promise and enhanced Promise,

690
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 1: and they supposedly went ahead and made changes to the

691
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 1: software and began to distribute it to other US agencies

692
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 1: and quote unquote foreign allies. Of what they did when

693
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 1: they did that is they again this is supposedly added

694
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 1: a back door to the program that I had to

695
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 1: say that I find those charges kind of less incredible

696
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 1: because I would bet you anything I had already added

697
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,919
Speaker 1: a back door. You know, I don't I don't know that.

698
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 1: I don't know. I can't say that if they would

699
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,280
Speaker 1: or would not, I don't know what the benefit would be.

700
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 1: It's not as if the you know, the Internet was

701
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 1: a main way of communication for accessing software, you had

702
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: to go to the site. That's part I'm sure that

703
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 1: was part of the contract. Is my terminal in Baltimore,

704
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: Maryland has crashed. Send your guide to Baltimore, Maryland to

705
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 1: fix my terminal. It's not like they were going to

706
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 1: remotely long in it's the what was this? This all

707
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 1: happened in? It began Okay, so the darknet was already

708
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 1: up and running. They would have, but I don't know

709
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 1: that they would have needed it. I mean, I really

710
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 1: get the feeling that they wouldn't have been doing it remotely.

711
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 1: But I you know, I don't know the technology well

712
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: enough to say that with any degree of certainty. You know,

713
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 1: it's hard. It's hard to we're back exactly when did

714
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: this start happening? And when did that start happening? You

715
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Yeah? When? What was their internet?

716
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 1: When was my first my first computer? When was that

717
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 1: mid Eddies your first computer? Something like that? I don't know.

718
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: I think we had a computer when I was growing up,

719
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: and the way that we accessed was a O l

720
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: oh no, no, no, it was Netscape first, when you

721
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 1: had to like log on only to do with certain things.

722
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:27,839
Speaker 1: We had an escape and we had all they had

723
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 1: to the disk for because they always sent you a

724
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 1: hundred in the mail. Yeah, but you had to have

725
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: the disc and you had you could only log on

726
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 1: to you know for many yeah, or something like that,

727
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 1: and you know, tied up the phone line and all

728
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 1: that stuff. But it's the back door thing is so

729
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 1: troubling to me. It's so troubling to me, and it's

730
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 1: you know, either with actually it's more troubling obviously if

731
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: in slaught like they just had that programmed in and

732
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: then it was every copy, which, to be honest, I

733
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 1: don't think I'm so cynical at this point with technologies

734
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: that it's just my sumption that of course they programmed

735
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: a backdoor, and of course they did, of lest they did,

736
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,240
Speaker 1: But even if it was just the Department of Justice

737
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 1: that developed it and then had the backdoor and then

738
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 1: sold it to the quote unquote for an allies, it's

739
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 1: so troubling and also so typical of things that we've

740
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:19,359
Speaker 1: seen come to light in the last ten years. It's

741
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 1: just so this is like the precursor David. David, not me.

742
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:32,240
Speaker 1: Den is obviously very jaded about technology. Well, and here's

743
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 1: the thing. If you're if you're if you're selling or

744
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,720
Speaker 1: giving copies to your allies, and if you've you've altered

745
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:39,719
Speaker 1: it or gotten it made that way so that you

746
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 1: can spy on them, well, let's standard up already procedure.

747
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 1: Have you ever heard of the ultra secret This sounds familiar,

748
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,879
Speaker 1: but yeah, it was all about the all that early on,

749
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 1: I don't remember if it was before or in the

750
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 1: early years of World War two, the Polish government actually

751
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 1: captured some Enigma machines from the Germans. And now remember

752
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 1: the like those were those are the things that were

753
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 1: kind of like they look like suicide. They look like

754
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: a typewriter and they had the three dials and them

755
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,320
Speaker 1: so you could set the set a key and everything.

756
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 1: And they were supposedly that they would create an unbreakable

757
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 1: cipher and then they managed to reverse the engineer those

758
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: basically takes to take them apart, especially at Bletchley Park Park, England,

759
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: and they had early prototypes of computers Torry and all that,

760
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 1: and they and they were using those machines and their

761
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 1: their their computers to break the German code. And then

762
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 1: after the war and this is what happened that they

763
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 1: kept that secret. The British kept that secret for many

764
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 1: decades after the end of the war. And the reason

765
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 1: they did it was because after the war they captured

766
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 1: a bunch of Enagment machines from the Germans, and they

767
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: gave them out to their Commonwealth allies. They gave them

768
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 1: to the Canadians and the New Zealanders and the Australians

769
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 1: and anybody else you could name, simply because that enabled

770
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 1: them to read all their communic their diplomatic communications. Yeah,

771
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:00,040
Speaker 1: and that's that's why the Ultra secret was kept the

772
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 1: ultra secret for so many decades. It was I don't

773
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: remember when it was. I think it was clear into

774
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 1: the seventies before they finally revealed what was happening. Yeah,

775
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 1: this is I'm just saying, this is the history that

776
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 1: I've inherited, is like totally normal. And then you know,

777
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 1: growing up with the whole wiki leaks, revelations and all

778
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: of that stuff, you just kind of that's you just

779
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 1: assume this is what's going on. So for me, this

780
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 1: is this is the the genesis of that. Almost Well,

781
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:29,879
Speaker 1: let's go ahead and tell everybody what happens. Oh yeah, yeah,

782
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 1: I guess we're kind of I think it's related and

783
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 1: it makes total sense. And I'm glad we went there

784
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 1: because I wasn't sure where that was going at first.

785
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 1: But until there, But let's continue on with in law

786
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,840
Speaker 1: because and this is this. I know that Steave is

787
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: going to come out of your ears here in a minute, Devon,

788
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 1: because I know that you hate this. But what happens

789
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 1: is not too long after, like within months of this

790
00:43:56,040 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: contract and then getting being signed and the program going out,

791
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 1: the govern the U. S Government begins to withhold payments

792
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 1: to ins law. Uh, they make all kinds of claims

793
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 1: of breach of contract and all these problems that are

794
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 1: going on. The court case begins. This is the court

795
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:20,280
Speaker 1: case begins in the early eighties, and eventually it drags

796
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:22,879
Speaker 1: on for so long that in the law runs out

797
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 1: of money to keep going, and so they try to

798
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:28,840
Speaker 1: file for bankruptcy. And they want to file for Chapter

799
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 1: eleven bankruptcy, which lets them simply stand their debts off

800
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 1: and restructure. Well, somebody has a friend at the I

801
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 1: R S. I think it was the I R S,

802
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:47,760
Speaker 1: and they were pushing them to go into Chapter seven bankruptcy,

803
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 1: which would have liquidated the company. So there's some hinky

804
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 1: Shenanigan's back room weirdness going on. Long story short, eventually

805
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 1: in the ruling comes out and the US government has

806
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 1: to pay nothing. They win. The case takes almost twenty years,

807
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 1: but they win the case against in his Law, and

808
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 1: they're they're off the hook. I still don't quite understand

809
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 1: their case against Inslaw. It's like, you know what I mean,

810
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 1: because there was like I don't get the cliff notes

811
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 1: of it, would be the d J got a software

812
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 1: from Inslaw, they modified it and then sent it out

813
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:38,719
Speaker 1: and then I think their modifications didn't work super great,

814
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:40,839
Speaker 1: and so they said, oh, hey, Inslaw, you sold us

815
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 1: some faulty stuff, so we're not actually going to pay

816
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 1: you anymore. Yeah, we're not gonna pay you. And Inslaw said, no, no,

817
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 1: you altered it, so yeah, we're not gonna guarantee your

818
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 1: alterations to it. And then that was the case, and

819
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:56,480
Speaker 1: of course, shockingly, the Supreme Court was like, oh yeah, no,

820
00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 1: absolutely the I don't think I think it to the

821
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:02,799
Speaker 1: Court of Appeals as far as it went, sorry, okay,

822
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 1: so we're whatever court it made it too, shockingly the

823
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 1: US run court to win. Oh what, no, the no,

824
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 1: of course the government didn't do anything wrong. No, of

825
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 1: course they didn't. You they don't know you anything. Yeah,

826
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 1: well that's a good reason to not give these people

827
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:24,919
Speaker 1: too much power. Huh. Yeah, Well, if if this kind

828
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 1: of case really gets you going like it does YouTube.

829
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 1: You got to do it because we both were like,

830
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 1: this is going to be a episode if I do.

831
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 1: If you this stuff really gets you going. Though there

832
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 1: is tons of information out there about this case. It

833
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 1: really it's super interesting, but it's it's huge. You can't

834
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:48,320
Speaker 1: see how accurate all that information is. Well, you know,

835
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 1: so there's more stuff, right, there's more stuff. Let's keep

836
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:57,320
Speaker 1: moving forward because we are only on step one of seven,

837
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 1: so I supposed to invest gating besides okay, well yeah,

838
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: let's let's before we get into the next link in

839
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:11,280
Speaker 1: the chain, I want to talk about one of Castleros sources,

840
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 1: and that is a guy by the name of Michael J.

841
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 1: Rekono Scuto, a k A. Danger Man. Can we just

842
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 1: call him danger Man for the rest of the time. Well,

843
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,279
Speaker 1: it's notes, that's what he called him. We can call

844
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:30,239
Speaker 1: him danger Man from here on. It's way easier to say. Okay, Well,

845
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 1: danger Man was a whistleblower on the In's law case,

846
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 1: and he surprisingly he is. He claimed on record that

847
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,879
Speaker 1: he was the one that had programmed the back door

848
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 1: into Promise at the direction of the U. S. Government.

849
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 1: And of course, you know Danny talks to him, and

850
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 1: danger Man tells him a lot of things. Danger Man

851
00:47:56,200 --> 00:48:00,800
Speaker 1: tells anyone who will listen to him a lot of things.

852
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: He um, he says a lot of things with a

853
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 1: high degree of certainty. And uh, yeah, he he really

854
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:13,840
Speaker 1: knows what he's talking about, Like he is confident in

855
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: the things that he says and shares. That's all you

856
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,479
Speaker 1: have to do to fool most people. Though, Well, here's

857
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:25,719
Speaker 1: here's problem. Um is he really he really really really

858
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: really got Danny going on a lot of the things

859
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: that he shared with him. Evidently they spent a lot

860
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 1: of time talking. But as Joe said, uh, danger Man

861
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:41,320
Speaker 1: is in jail. He went to jail. He was arrested

862
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 1: eight days after coming forward as a witness in the

863
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 1: End's law case. Uh. He was arrested for possession of methane,

864
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 1: famine and methodone and was charged with ten different counts.

865
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 1: Us set up. Obviously they're trying to keep him quiet.

866
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 1: He says it was a setup. Um. Oh, by the way,

867
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:02,600
Speaker 1: just as a fun little bit of things that he's

868
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:06,720
Speaker 1: claimed he was he went to jail in the eighties. Okay,

869
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:09,720
Speaker 1: he's been in there for a long time. He claimed

870
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,840
Speaker 1: that he had knowledge that nine eleven was gonna happen,

871
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,280
Speaker 1: and had had his lawyers reaching out to make contact

872
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 1: with government agencies, but they didn't listen to it. Well,

873
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 1: he made contact before, just before eleven months ahead. He needed, uh,

874
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:30,800
Speaker 1: nine eleven, what's gonna happen? Because how I don't know that.

875
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 1: Nobody seems to know that. We don't know how he

876
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 1: gets his information. He just seems to have a lot

877
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 1: of information something. Yeah, Okay, Well that's danger Man, and

878
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:43,759
Speaker 1: danger Man is going to come up a number of

879
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: times in our story. So I wanted to bring him

880
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:50,279
Speaker 1: to everybody's attention. Let's uh, let's go to a completely

881
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:55,760
Speaker 1: different thing, which is the Cabazon Band of Mission Indians.

882
00:49:56,760 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 1: They're a American Indians. They it's a their reservation is

883
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:06,880
Speaker 1: in California, and it's it's in your coach Coachella. Of course,

884
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 1: it is all right, everybody's Riverside County. All you have

885
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:17,240
Speaker 1: to do is find the white girls in weird rave wear. Okay,

886
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 1: people probably know about this tribe of Indians in this

887
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 1: country without knowing who this tribe of Indians are. And

888
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 1: there's a really good reason for it. The in the

889
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:35,400
Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, the Cabazon and there's another tribe, the Morongo.

890
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 1: I really hope I'm saying that right. They both they

891
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 1: were on a completely different reservation. They both had small

892
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:47,880
Speaker 1: bingo parlors on their land and the State of California

893
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:52,880
Speaker 1: came in and said, you are violating gambling laws and

894
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 1: we are going to shut you down. And they said,

895
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 1: screw you, this is our land. And that's exactly what

896
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 1: they said. And they went to court and in nine seven, uh,

897
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:06,760
Speaker 1: they won against the State of California. And it wasn't

898
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 1: too long after that that you started seeing Indian gaming

899
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 1: casinos pop up all over the United States. This is

900
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 1: a weird thing because to me, that seems so ubiquitous

901
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 1: because it's been around my entire life when I was

902
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 1: When when I was a kid, they weren't he didn't

903
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 1: see that stuff, so weird. It's weird. It's weird where

904
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 1: I grew up, the casino starting just as I was

905
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 1: graduating from high school, Like there was none of them there,

906
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:37,760
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, they were all over

907
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:42,399
Speaker 1: that portion's totally weird. Yeah, because when we would drive,

908
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 1: you know, to family vacations and things like that, we

909
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:46,359
Speaker 1: would pass a bunch of them and for me, it's

910
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:48,440
Speaker 1: just always been a thing. Yeah, it's weird. I guess

911
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 1: they didn't realize it was that recent. It has this

912
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 1: pretty recent. Yeah. According well, according to Ken Thomas, that's

913
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 1: the guy who wrote the Octopus. That book he read. Yeah, boy,

914
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 1: that was a great book. According to him, the tribe

915
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 1: was greatly influenced by outsiders, both before the case and after.

916
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 1: And um, those outsiders kind of took control of the

917
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:19,320
Speaker 1: leaders of the tribal council. They got all the power

918
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:25,279
Speaker 1: and from from the notes that Danny Lepp, one of

919
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 1: the people who was of interest was a guy by

920
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:34,320
Speaker 1: the name of John Nichols. And according to danger Man, Nichols,

921
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 1: who was involved doing all this stuff on the reservation

922
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:43,760
Speaker 1: was bringing international business associates to the reservation to talk business.

923
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 1: I'm guessing illegal business. And I'm guessing because they were

924
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:53,720
Speaker 1: on sovereign land, they were okay to talk about illegal things.

925
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 1: The reason for that, I don't, I don't understand it.

926
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 1: I'm I'm gonna be very honest when it comes to

927
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 1: the stuff that happens with this tribe on this reservation.

928
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:10,440
Speaker 1: Based on the claims by Ken Thomas, I am a

929
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 1: little dubious because I can't back them up anywhere else.

930
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 1: I will tell you the things that I have read,

931
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:22,400
Speaker 1: but I cannot substantiate any most stuff. And again, this stuff,

932
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:26,520
Speaker 1: I believe it wasn't this stuff stuff that danger Man

933
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 1: ak a told him. Yes, yeah, yeah. So this again,

934
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:35,840
Speaker 1: this is the source, is driving him to some strange

935
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 1: links that he is then either making the connection of

936
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:43,279
Speaker 1: on his own or being told very directly that there's

937
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 1: a link. Well, they would be hard to substantiate too well.

938
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:48,320
Speaker 1: And if it's on sovereign land, I can kind of

939
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 1: get that. I can also see when it's coming from

940
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: Danger Man, it's hard to substantiate. But here's here's what's

941
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 1: going on on the reservation according to Thomas. According to

942
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:02,200
Speaker 1: Thomas A trying, they were into Danny. According to danger Man, correct,

943
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 1: it's a game of telephone. Okay, absolutely, Uh there were

944
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 1: illegal dealings and I don't know exactly what those dealings were. Uh.

945
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:16,759
Speaker 1: There was arms manufacturing. There was and this is evidently true.

946
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 1: They were selling cigarettes by mail off the reservation, so

947
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:26,480
Speaker 1: there's no taxes, and they started to sell booze by

948
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:29,320
Speaker 1: mail without taxes until they got shut down for that.

949
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:34,759
Speaker 1: I like these guys. Uh, they set up a partnership

950
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:42,279
Speaker 1: with Wackenhut Corporation. It's why I'm pretty sure it's Wackenhut. Well,

951
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 1: the this group is known for security work with just

952
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 1: about everybody, and they also do security at prisons, so

953
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 1: they're so they're really upstanding gentlemen. Yeah, and it's a

954
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 1: giant corporation that has just recently in the last five

955
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:02,759
Speaker 1: years been taken over by another corporation. And I went

956
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:05,120
Speaker 1: to their website. I was trying to do reading on them,

957
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 1: like an image hosting site that had like some weird

958
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:13,759
Speaker 1: It is amazing how sanitize their website is like the

959
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 1: whoever writes their stuff. It's great pr because I'm reading

960
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 1: something here and going what that doesn't what These people

961
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:25,880
Speaker 1: don't sound like those people at all. That they might

962
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:28,319
Speaker 1: not actually beat those people. They might not, You're right,

963
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:31,400
Speaker 1: but they probably are possibly. Well. The point about the

964
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 1: tribe that really got really got Cassolero going was a murder.

965
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 1: There was a gentleman by the name of fred Alvarez.

966
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 1: He and two other people were murdered. Ino Alvarez at

967
00:55:46,719 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 1: the time was a tribal leader and again this is

968
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 1: according to Kent Thomas, and he was killed because he

969
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 1: wasn't supporting all of the changes that were taking place

970
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:01,400
Speaker 1: on the reservation and with the vibe based on the

971
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:04,640
Speaker 1: direction of Nichols. So he kind of tried to stand

972
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:07,400
Speaker 1: up to him and was killed for it is the

973
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:11,160
Speaker 1: line that I understand. But that was he on reservation

974
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:14,799
Speaker 1: land when he was murdered, I believe. So, yeah, because

975
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 1: I got to say, I mean Riverside Counties in southern California,

976
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:22,800
Speaker 1: So of course he was killed. Well, um, yeah, no,

977
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 1: it did it? Uh did happen? I'm pretty sure it

978
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:27,680
Speaker 1: did happen on there. But but the point is this

979
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:30,920
Speaker 1: whole thing with the reservation can't substantiate any of it.

980
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:32,440
Speaker 1: But I'm going to tell you about it because you will.

981
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 1: You will read about it in different places. We're going

982
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 1: to move forward to the next step in the puzzle. Yeah,

983
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 1: I'm a little off the reservation on this particular. We're

984
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 1: gonna go to the next one, which I know, if

985
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:47,640
Speaker 1: we don't control him, Joe is probably going to have

986
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:52,399
Speaker 1: a field day with and that October surprise. People may

987
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:54,840
Speaker 1: or may not have heard of the October Surprise. And

988
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:57,719
Speaker 1: let me let me give you the basics on this nine.

989
00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 1: It's seventy nine and the US embassy in Tehran is

990
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:10,440
Speaker 1: stormed by revolutionaries. Familiar, they were students, the revolutionaries. It

991
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 1: was the Iranian revolution which began in like October eight.

992
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:17,960
Speaker 1: But then the people who ran overund the embassy were students, right,

993
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 1: but it's more radical for the revolution. But it is

994
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 1: part of the revolutionary day technically revolution American diplomats are

995
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 1: taken hostage at this time and the it's November nine

996
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 1: is the exact day. Seriously, this sounds so familiar. Well,

997
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 1: that is probably because you're familiar with the story because

998
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 1: of the movie Argo. Yeah, Argo something yourself, which I

999
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:47,000
Speaker 1: don't know, why is it. I always have references the

1000
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 1: Ben Affle like movie. You just like him? Yeah? Okay,

1001
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 1: you keep talking about Batman versus Superman. Okay, Well, so

1002
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:59,439
Speaker 1: these people have been taken hostage, and this is where

1003
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:02,880
Speaker 1: the surprise eyes portion of the story comes in because

1004
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 1: if you remember US history, you will know that was

1005
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:12,080
Speaker 1: a presidential election year and Jimmy Carter was running against

1006
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:20,760
Speaker 1: that silly actor Ronald Ray who is California well, in

1007
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:26,880
Speaker 1: a bid to stop Carter from pulling the political version

1008
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:30,680
Speaker 1: of a rabbit out of a hat. According to the

1009
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:35,959
Speaker 1: conspiracy of the October surprise. What the Reagan campaign does

1010
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 1: is they get ahold of the the Iranians and they say, hey,

1011
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:46,000
Speaker 1: don't release those people no matter what. And that way

1012
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:50,400
Speaker 1: he can't Carter can't come out as the hero. And

1013
00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:54,920
Speaker 1: since the election at the end, which would be in October,

1014
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 1: which would make an October surprise, I guess I would

1015
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:00,920
Speaker 1: not to yeah, go ahead on lean into it. I

1016
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:04,000
Speaker 1: guess the argument there would be then that Reagan was

1017
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:07,040
Speaker 1: already selected by if we're talking about it, there's like

1018
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:10,920
Speaker 1: this weird octopus octopus thing, right, that the octopus had

1019
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 1: already selected that Reagan was going to be president, and

1020
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 1: there were more supported Carter so much they were willing

1021
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:19,800
Speaker 1: to yes. But but it's the same thing either way.

1022
00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 1: But I mean, these alleged contacts between the Reagan campaign

1023
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:25,720
Speaker 1: didn't take place until I mean, they didn't start right

1024
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:29,920
Speaker 1: after the hostages received We're talking like, you know, late summer,

1025
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 1: when it was when it was clear that if Carter

1026
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 1: was able to negotiate the release that he would become presidents.

1027
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 1: Here would be he would Here's the thing is that

1028
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:43,640
Speaker 1: Carter probably would not have been reelected even if the

1029
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:46,160
Speaker 1: hostages have been freed. If they'd been freed early on,

1030
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:49,000
Speaker 1: then yeah, but the hot but this thing drug on

1031
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 1: and on, right, But I just mean that the theory

1032
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:54,720
Speaker 1: is that, yeah, if if Carter had that, that's that's

1033
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:56,760
Speaker 1: the basis of the October surprise. Serious that if the

1034
00:59:56,880 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 1: hostages had been freed, let's say in October then or

1035
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 1: months beforehand, yeah, well a month before something like, yeah exactly.

1036
01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:10,360
Speaker 1: But now he would not have been I'm pretty sure

1037
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 1: because because here's the deal, Carter almost certainly wouldn't have

1038
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 1: been reelected anyway, because the thing about it is is

1039
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:19,440
Speaker 1: that the hostages are free, but that doesn't make the

1040
01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:22,240
Speaker 1: whole The thing about it is is graded on the

1041
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:26,160
Speaker 1: American people very much. That this thing went on and

1042
01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:28,600
Speaker 1: on and Carter was not able to do anything about it.

1043
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:32,400
Speaker 1: It did. Yeah, and you know, you could argue that

1044
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:35,400
Speaker 1: his hands were kind of tired. That's fair, but the

1045
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:38,200
Speaker 1: you know, the hostage thing doesn't just go away if

1046
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 1: the hostages are released. The other thing is is the

1047
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:44,640
Speaker 1: economy was in the crapper. The Iranian revolution had caused

1048
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:48,080
Speaker 1: had caused oil production to drop worldwide, which had caused

1049
01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 1: oil prices and gas prices to go up. There were shortages,

1050
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:53,919
Speaker 1: there were gas lines of gas stations. In the year,

1051
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:58,440
Speaker 1: the average inflation rate was thirteen point five percent. Unemployment

1052
01:00:58,520 --> 01:01:02,000
Speaker 1: was really high. Carter, No, not gonna win that election now.

1053
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:04,560
Speaker 1: And but here's the deal. If you want to read

1054
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:07,760
Speaker 1: some really good research about the October Surprise theory, read

1055
01:01:08,280 --> 01:01:10,880
Speaker 1: a book called Guests of the Aetola by Mark Bowden,

1056
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:12,520
Speaker 1: who you may have You may have heard of one

1057
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:15,400
Speaker 1: of his books, at least he wrote black Hawk Down. Yeah,

1058
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:17,320
Speaker 1: great book, by the way, and Guests of the Aetola

1059
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:20,160
Speaker 1: is really good too. And he wanted Iran and he

1060
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:23,000
Speaker 1: interviewed tons of people, officials and a lot of the

1061
01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:25,920
Speaker 1: students that there were hostage shakers and everything, and he

1062
01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:29,240
Speaker 1: asked them about the October Surprise and they all laughed.

1063
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:32,120
Speaker 1: They all just said, no, our motivation was not anything

1064
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:35,240
Speaker 1: to do with the Reagan campaign. Our motivation was we

1065
01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:38,920
Speaker 1: really hated Carter's guts. No, and it and it's it's

1066
01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:41,040
Speaker 1: not it's not rational in their part, but for them,

1067
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 1: this is Bowden's words. For for those people, Carter was

1068
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:48,800
Speaker 1: the personification of the Great Satan. For that reason, they

1069
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:51,800
Speaker 1: hated him so much that they held out of the

1070
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:55,240
Speaker 1: hostages until inauguration day when Reagan was inaugurated, they let

1071
01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:58,560
Speaker 1: the hostages go because it was a final insult to Carter,

1072
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:01,520
Speaker 1: a final thumb in his And last of all, they

1073
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:04,360
Speaker 1: really loved the idea before and after the election. They

1074
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:07,120
Speaker 1: really loved the idea that they were the force that

1075
01:02:07,280 --> 01:02:09,680
Speaker 1: was toppling the leader of the free world, and they

1076
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:11,959
Speaker 1: kind of got them. They really liked that idea. There's

1077
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:14,360
Speaker 1: I think there's yeah, there's definitely something to be said

1078
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:19,000
Speaker 1: for movements in general, the people who are on the ground,

1079
01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 1: the boots on the ground, saying like, no, we're empowered

1080
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:25,880
Speaker 1: by this thing. But if there's something that is managing

1081
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:28,880
Speaker 1: to control the way that those boots on the ground

1082
01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 1: are viewing whatever issue they're protesting or whatever, I think

1083
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:37,360
Speaker 1: oftentimes that it's not recognized, right, So it's totally possible

1084
01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:39,160
Speaker 1: that in situations right you would be like, well, that's

1085
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:40,800
Speaker 1: not our motivation at all. It was this thing. But

1086
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:42,240
Speaker 1: it was like, well, but where did you hear that

1087
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:46,000
Speaker 1: it was that thing? Look, look's I'm not look confused.

1088
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:48,640
Speaker 1: So so you're saying they were confused when they thought. No,

1089
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that they specifically were confused. I just

1090
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:54,080
Speaker 1: mean in general, those movements. It's very interesting to watch

1091
01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:57,320
Speaker 1: how the boots on the ground, people who are actually

1092
01:02:57,360 --> 01:02:59,800
Speaker 1: doing the protesting and the holding and all that stuff

1093
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:04,000
Speaker 1: are influenced by You have the impression in your brain

1094
01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:05,920
Speaker 1: as one of those people, because I've been one of

1095
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:09,160
Speaker 1: those people who say, you know, where there's it's just

1096
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:12,520
Speaker 1: this is the movement and we're there that you're operating

1097
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:16,480
Speaker 1: under versus the belief of the actual group. Is that

1098
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:20,680
Speaker 1: where you're having I guess I'm saying all lost, It's okay,

1099
01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:23,720
Speaker 1: I'm saying that the people who are doing the thing,

1100
01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:27,080
Speaker 1: who are acting out the movement, very often are influenced

1101
01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:30,600
Speaker 1: by some overarching something. And right now it's really easy

1102
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:33,480
Speaker 1: to kind of say, well, it's the social media movement,

1103
01:03:33,680 --> 01:03:38,400
Speaker 1: but there's often the really loud voices of people who

1104
01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:43,480
Speaker 1: are more yeah, the spokespeople almost of that movement that

1105
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:47,000
Speaker 1: are that influence where that movement goes and what focus

1106
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:49,919
Speaker 1: it takes. And it's always really interesting to look, even

1107
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:53,480
Speaker 1: before social media, where those influences came from, and how

1108
01:03:53,560 --> 01:03:55,880
Speaker 1: they may not be as pristine as many people think

1109
01:03:55,960 --> 01:04:01,360
Speaker 1: they are. Is where did that clarify at Interestingly about

1110
01:04:01,360 --> 01:04:04,560
Speaker 1: the students, the government itself that eventually came out on

1111
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:08,960
Speaker 1: top was Islamist and and but the students themselves are

1112
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:11,560
Speaker 1: actually left wingers for the most part, they were. They

1113
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:13,760
Speaker 1: were kind of socialist types and everything. And but there

1114
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:15,919
Speaker 1: they were united with the Islamists and hating the Shaw

1115
01:04:16,840 --> 01:04:21,080
Speaker 1: and the show. Yeah, and of course united in hating Americans,

1116
01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:24,320
Speaker 1: even though actually they treated the hostages reasonably, not perfectly,

1117
01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:28,000
Speaker 1: but they better than we treat them often they Yeah,

1118
01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:30,360
Speaker 1: I mean it's not like it's not like they killed anybody,

1119
01:04:30,480 --> 01:04:34,040
Speaker 1: you know, and and so and uh and actually let

1120
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:37,200
Speaker 1: one guy go because he was sick. I'm just yeah.

1121
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:39,560
Speaker 1: So my argument is phrasing it kind of in this

1122
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:42,560
Speaker 1: broader conspiracy that we're talking about in the Octopus, that

1123
01:04:42,920 --> 01:04:45,480
Speaker 1: it would be really easy for an octopus agent to

1124
01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:54,160
Speaker 1: influence the movement itself. So let's let's move forward before

1125
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:57,440
Speaker 1: we get too far off on this, because the point

1126
01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:02,960
Speaker 1: is that for the theory or the of the October Surprise,

1127
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:07,280
Speaker 1: it is, of course, as we've said that you know,

1128
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:10,680
Speaker 1: Reagan was involved, or the Reagan administration in some version

1129
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:14,600
Speaker 1: was involved and negotiated with them to not let the

1130
01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:18,000
Speaker 1: hostages go until it was all done. And the proof

1131
01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 1: that is approaching people who believe in this theory. Is that,

1132
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:24,880
Speaker 1: as you said, when they got let go, because the

1133
01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:28,640
Speaker 1: hostages were let go on the twentieth of January, which

1134
01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:33,720
Speaker 1: is also a lecture orderation day in the United States. Yeah,

1135
01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:35,480
Speaker 1: and that's and that's and that's one thing that kind

1136
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:38,120
Speaker 1: of actually shoots a hole in the whole October surprised thing,

1137
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:41,520
Speaker 1: because if the Reagan campaign it approached them and just said, hey,

1138
01:05:41,640 --> 01:05:43,880
Speaker 1: just hang on to him, just that just after election

1139
01:05:43,960 --> 01:05:45,640
Speaker 1: day and then you can do whatever you want, then

1140
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:48,240
Speaker 1: they probably would have let them go, because here's the deal.

1141
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:50,560
Speaker 1: And then Bowden talks about this again in his book

1142
01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:52,320
Speaker 1: Guests of the I told in case you didn't hear

1143
01:05:52,360 --> 01:05:55,120
Speaker 1: it the first time he talks about this, he said,

1144
01:05:55,160 --> 01:05:58,560
Speaker 1: the students actually, by the time the election was approaching,

1145
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:00,960
Speaker 1: they were actually getting kind of sick of being prison guards.

1146
01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:05,360
Speaker 1: They were not they were not that thrilled with it anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1147
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:07,640
Speaker 1: the newness was wearing off of it. And also the

1148
01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:10,600
Speaker 1: Iranian is really badly wanted some spare parts because they

1149
01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:12,800
Speaker 1: had a lot of US planes, for example, work planes

1150
01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:14,880
Speaker 1: and stuff, and we were obviously we're not We're not

1151
01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:17,520
Speaker 1: giving them those spare parts, and so they had some

1152
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:20,600
Speaker 1: motivation to actually let the hostages go earlier than they did.

1153
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:24,959
Speaker 1: The only possible explanation for them holding the hostages until

1154
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:28,560
Speaker 1: January twenty was purest bite towards Carter. That is the

1155
01:06:28,640 --> 01:06:32,560
Speaker 1: only possible explanation. Let's move forward, yes, because we have

1156
01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:36,320
Speaker 1: another big one. Oh yeah, We're gonna move to the

1157
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:40,440
Speaker 1: next thing, which is actually connected to the October surprise.

1158
01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:46,280
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Connected according to the theories, it's connected

1159
01:06:46,720 --> 01:06:50,200
Speaker 1: to the October surprise. Let me let me clarify that way. Okay, okay,

1160
01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:54,520
Speaker 1: next thing we're talking about is the Iran contra affair.

1161
01:06:56,000 --> 01:07:00,120
Speaker 1: Most I really, I hope. I think most people know

1162
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:04,040
Speaker 1: about this to one degree or another. I do not.

1163
01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:07,880
Speaker 1: That's why I know it because I grew up with

1164
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:11,360
Speaker 1: that phrase, and I used that phrase. You ever want

1165
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:15,040
Speaker 1: to get it as a kid in high school in

1166
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:18,080
Speaker 1: the nineties, if you wanted to get in trouble, you

1167
01:07:18,320 --> 01:07:20,520
Speaker 1: use that phrase. Because I used to use that as

1168
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:22,680
Speaker 1: my way out all the time, and I got into

1169
01:07:22,720 --> 01:07:24,800
Speaker 1: a lot of trouble for it. Okay, so let me

1170
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:26,440
Speaker 1: should I send this I thought that I can do

1171
01:07:26,480 --> 01:07:30,720
Speaker 1: it pretty concisely. Yeah, yeah, okay because I remember it. Yeah,

1172
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:34,600
Speaker 1: you go for yeah, okay. Yeah. So the Ranians after

1173
01:07:34,680 --> 01:07:37,200
Speaker 1: the hostage crisis, they managed to contrive to get some

1174
01:07:37,240 --> 01:07:39,560
Speaker 1: more American hostages. I think they bought most of them

1175
01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:41,480
Speaker 1: have been kidnapped in Lebanon, I think, and they just

1176
01:07:41,600 --> 01:07:44,120
Speaker 1: bought them basically and had them shipped to Iran literally

1177
01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:47,880
Speaker 1: in boxes, and they were holding these guys. Meantime, in

1178
01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:51,160
Speaker 1: in South and South or Central America and Nicaragua, the

1179
01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:54,160
Speaker 1: Sandinistas came to power. They were a bunch of communists,

1180
01:07:54,320 --> 01:07:57,480
Speaker 1: and then an opposition group of rose called which we're

1181
01:07:57,480 --> 01:08:01,160
Speaker 1: called the Contras, which we're you know, basically freedom fighters,

1182
01:08:01,360 --> 01:08:06,160
Speaker 1: an insurgency against them. And so the Reagaan administration wanted

1183
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:08,160
Speaker 1: to get the hostages back. And of course, even though

1184
01:08:08,560 --> 01:08:12,560
Speaker 1: ostensibly they had a no negotiations, no ransom policy for

1185
01:08:12,680 --> 01:08:15,800
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. Of course, government's usually honored those

1186
01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:17,920
Speaker 1: only about part of the time, you know, not all

1187
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:20,280
Speaker 1: the time. And so they figured out a sneaky way.

1188
01:08:20,280 --> 01:08:22,679
Speaker 1: The r audience were under an arm in arms embargo,

1189
01:08:23,400 --> 01:08:26,800
Speaker 1: so we sold them arms and in order to and

1190
01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:29,640
Speaker 1: also to get our hostages back. So they got they

1191
01:08:29,720 --> 01:08:31,680
Speaker 1: got guns, we've got money in hostages and then the

1192
01:08:31,800 --> 01:08:35,360
Speaker 1: funds were diverted to the contras in Central America. So

1193
01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:37,640
Speaker 1: that was the whole thing. A little bit of illegality,

1194
01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:39,360
Speaker 1: but you know, I mean they were trying to get

1195
01:08:39,400 --> 01:08:41,320
Speaker 1: the hostages back and all that stuff, and so it

1196
01:08:41,400 --> 01:08:45,040
Speaker 1: was scandalous, you know. But and the way in what

1197
01:08:45,280 --> 01:08:48,400
Speaker 1: people do is they say what we talked about in

1198
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:54,360
Speaker 1: October Surprise. People say that the Reagan campaign negotiated some

1199
01:08:54,680 --> 01:09:00,200
Speaker 1: kind of future payoff. That's what the payoff was. They're saying, well,

1200
01:09:00,680 --> 01:09:04,000
Speaker 1: what happened in the Around Contra affair, that was the payoff,

1201
01:09:04,120 --> 01:09:07,840
Speaker 1: So it proves it anymore that it actually doesn't prove

1202
01:09:07,880 --> 01:09:10,559
Speaker 1: it though it doesn't because we want to point out

1203
01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:13,280
Speaker 1: here this is this is an important point so that

1204
01:09:13,360 --> 01:09:18,320
Speaker 1: people don't get confused. At the time of Cassolero's death,

1205
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:23,040
Speaker 1: the Iron contrafair was basically done it over with, so

1206
01:09:23,439 --> 01:09:26,519
Speaker 1: it's not as it's its outcome had already happened, so

1207
01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:31,280
Speaker 1: he knew about that. What hadn't happened was the officially

1208
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:34,439
Speaker 1: you're gonna love this, don't don't freak out devon the

1209
01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:41,519
Speaker 1: official government investigation into the October Surprise, which officially said

1210
01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:47,320
Speaker 1: that there was officially no official conspiracy officially officially, but

1211
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:50,960
Speaker 1: that could also be the octopus at work. I just

1212
01:09:51,120 --> 01:09:54,920
Speaker 1: love it when a government body comes out and says, oh, no,

1213
01:09:55,479 --> 01:09:59,559
Speaker 1: we didn't do anything right, because that's essentially what we're saying, right,

1214
01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:02,800
Speaker 1: We're saying that this government body came out and said,

1215
01:10:02,920 --> 01:10:05,600
Speaker 1: this government body didn't do anything wrong. Yeah, but of

1216
01:10:05,640 --> 01:10:10,800
Speaker 1: course there were so many. Here's a problem with the

1217
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:15,720
Speaker 1: October surprises. As Joe said, the facts don't substantiated, that

1218
01:10:15,840 --> 01:10:20,920
Speaker 1: we're bogus. Yeah, we need to keep going. No. One

1219
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:25,519
Speaker 1: last thing. Uh. The the actual October surprise theory originated

1220
01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:28,120
Speaker 1: with a guy named Gary Sick, who was a former

1221
01:10:28,160 --> 01:10:31,920
Speaker 1: adviser to Gimme Carter. Do you think perhaps this guy

1222
01:10:32,040 --> 01:10:35,320
Speaker 1: might have had an abstagrind but yeah, and so. But

1223
01:10:35,439 --> 01:10:38,639
Speaker 1: also the idea that that they were probably the Iranians

1224
01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:41,000
Speaker 1: were promised some sort of quid pro quo by the

1225
01:10:41,080 --> 01:10:45,559
Speaker 1: Reagan campaign. Well that's absurd because why would the Reagan

1226
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:49,000
Speaker 1: administration bother to keep their promise. They don't need to

1227
01:10:49,600 --> 01:10:53,599
Speaker 1: nations break their promises all the time. Then, so their

1228
01:10:53,640 --> 01:10:56,200
Speaker 1: motivation obviously they wanted to get the hostages back, and

1229
01:10:56,240 --> 01:10:58,600
Speaker 1: they wanted to get some strengths for your cash to

1230
01:10:58,680 --> 01:11:01,600
Speaker 1: give to their buddies. Of contrast, that's that's more than

1231
01:11:01,720 --> 01:11:05,800
Speaker 1: enough motivation, right there. Shall we move to the next

1232
01:11:06,280 --> 01:11:08,840
Speaker 1: link in the chain here? This one's kind of boring.

1233
01:11:10,320 --> 01:11:13,200
Speaker 1: This one's boring. It'll be easy. Then we are going

1234
01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:15,640
Speaker 1: to now move on to the Bank of Credit and

1235
01:11:15,720 --> 01:11:20,920
Speaker 1: Commerce International. Great name, really really exciting basics. Sexy. Joe

1236
01:11:20,960 --> 01:11:25,240
Speaker 1: would say it's a sexy name in his Hunt for

1237
01:11:25,800 --> 01:11:28,799
Speaker 1: the Octopus. This is one of the things that Danny

1238
01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:33,559
Speaker 1: came across. B c c I was a international bank.

1239
01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:37,519
Speaker 1: It was found in nineteen seventy two. Within ten years,

1240
01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:43,479
Speaker 1: it was worth over twenty billion US had four hundred

1241
01:11:43,600 --> 01:11:46,320
Speaker 1: or over four hundred branches. They were in seventy seven

1242
01:11:46,439 --> 01:11:50,360
Speaker 1: or seventy eight countries. They were the seventh largest bank

1243
01:11:50,439 --> 01:11:57,000
Speaker 1: in the world. They're frigging hue. That's not that's not nothing. Well,

1244
01:11:57,080 --> 01:12:00,680
Speaker 1: they came under scrutiny in the eight is because there

1245
01:12:00,760 --> 01:12:05,200
Speaker 1: was some concerns that maybe they weren't actually properly being regulated.

1246
01:12:06,360 --> 01:12:10,400
Speaker 1: It's like they raised to the seventh most popular bank

1247
01:12:10,560 --> 01:12:14,599
Speaker 1: in the world in ten years, which is very strange.

1248
01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:19,040
Speaker 1: That's strange when you got all this octopus money flowing

1249
01:12:19,040 --> 01:12:22,559
Speaker 1: into Well, that's the thing is that the investigations into

1250
01:12:22,920 --> 01:12:27,919
Speaker 1: b c c I found that there was a massive

1251
01:12:28,120 --> 01:12:33,559
Speaker 1: money laundering and a ton of other financial crimes being

1252
01:12:33,640 --> 01:12:39,120
Speaker 1: committed and somehow, and it's it's described as illegally, but

1253
01:12:39,280 --> 01:12:43,120
Speaker 1: I didn't actually do enough reading on b c c

1254
01:12:43,280 --> 01:12:45,320
Speaker 1: I to know what the illegal part was, because this

1255
01:12:45,479 --> 01:12:49,120
Speaker 1: is financial stuff that is a little above my pay grade.

1256
01:12:49,640 --> 01:12:54,920
Speaker 1: But somehow they illegally gained control or controlling interest, I

1257
01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:58,880
Speaker 1: should say, in a major US bank. The point is

1258
01:12:59,479 --> 01:13:03,000
Speaker 1: they were looked at, they were investigated. On the fifth

1259
01:13:03,040 --> 01:13:10,400
Speaker 1: of July, regulators and law enforcement, Uh, they raided the

1260
01:13:10,560 --> 01:13:15,240
Speaker 1: bank's locations in seven different countries all at once and

1261
01:13:15,560 --> 01:13:19,200
Speaker 1: seized everything and locked him down. So this is U

1262
01:13:19,840 --> 01:13:22,960
Speaker 1: Danny Castilera. How far did he progress in his investigation

1263
01:13:23,040 --> 01:13:27,240
Speaker 1: of b c c I. The well, the lockdown b

1264
01:13:27,400 --> 01:13:30,759
Speaker 1: c c I happened, Well, that happened in July. Danny

1265
01:13:30,920 --> 01:13:34,160
Speaker 1: died in August, so it was two months before he died.

1266
01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:38,639
Speaker 1: Before he died in AUGUSTU August, oh, it is one month.

1267
01:13:39,280 --> 01:13:43,120
Speaker 1: I really can you can't, wow. But the point is

1268
01:13:43,439 --> 01:13:46,479
Speaker 1: he had he had been looking into them, and he

1269
01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:49,920
Speaker 1: was making a lot of again this is the octopus,

1270
01:13:50,120 --> 01:13:55,439
Speaker 1: a lot of connections to some shady things. Was he

1271
01:13:55,600 --> 01:13:58,880
Speaker 1: making those connections? There was kind of Scioto making those

1272
01:13:59,720 --> 01:14:03,240
Speaker 1: dah Man, you know, I can't I don't know how

1273
01:14:03,400 --> 01:14:06,360
Speaker 1: much of it came from danger Man or how much

1274
01:14:06,400 --> 01:14:09,840
Speaker 1: of it at least started with him. There have been

1275
01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:16,200
Speaker 1: allegations by unnamed source, unnamed sources who was quoted as

1276
01:14:16,320 --> 01:14:20,280
Speaker 1: saying that they were the go the b c c

1277
01:14:20,479 --> 01:14:25,400
Speaker 1: I was the go to location for people who wanted expensive,

1278
01:14:25,520 --> 01:14:29,280
Speaker 1: slash illegal things and for them to be connected to

1279
01:14:29,439 --> 01:14:33,720
Speaker 1: people who had those things. They were the conduit. And

1280
01:14:34,040 --> 01:14:37,120
Speaker 1: it's claimed that like Oliver North, part of the contra

1281
01:14:37,240 --> 01:14:41,559
Speaker 1: money money went through b c c I. Um, there

1282
01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:47,200
Speaker 1: are claims that Saddam Hussein used them, um, Abu Nadal

1283
01:14:47,520 --> 01:14:50,040
Speaker 1: used them. Like there's there's some there's some big claims

1284
01:14:50,120 --> 01:14:54,640
Speaker 1: to say anything. People were funneling money through them. But

1285
01:14:54,800 --> 01:14:59,479
Speaker 1: I I it's such a crazy, crazy case. Again, this

1286
01:14:59,640 --> 01:15:02,000
Speaker 1: is just like the other ones. It's way too big

1287
01:15:02,120 --> 01:15:05,600
Speaker 1: to go into all the details. Yeah, um yeah, so

1288
01:15:05,840 --> 01:15:07,560
Speaker 1: bcc I. It's kind of an interesting case in and

1289
01:15:07,600 --> 01:15:11,439
Speaker 1: of itself. They're all like every single facet of this

1290
01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:13,479
Speaker 1: is kind of an interesting case in and of itself,

1291
01:15:14,240 --> 01:15:18,800
Speaker 1: which it's frustrating, but in a way it's um It's

1292
01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:22,120
Speaker 1: funny is that the bank, at least on the outside,

1293
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:25,679
Speaker 1: looks like the most boring aspect of it, because who cares.

1294
01:15:25,760 --> 01:15:27,960
Speaker 1: It's a bank that did some bad things and they

1295
01:15:28,040 --> 01:15:31,439
Speaker 1: got busted, Except that when you get look at it

1296
01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:35,519
Speaker 1: from the perspective of where we're investigating the octopus, it

1297
01:15:35,640 --> 01:15:38,280
Speaker 1: could be that they were instrumental in setting up They

1298
01:15:38,320 --> 01:15:42,120
Speaker 1: were instrumental in its spread, increasing the right palms for

1299
01:15:42,240 --> 01:15:44,439
Speaker 1: them to be able to do the things they did

1300
01:15:44,800 --> 01:15:48,000
Speaker 1: to then find the clients on one or both end

1301
01:15:48,400 --> 01:15:51,960
Speaker 1: to get the money trades. Like there's suddenly all these

1302
01:15:52,120 --> 01:15:56,280
Speaker 1: avenues that open up that this dirty bank could have

1303
01:15:56,439 --> 01:15:59,200
Speaker 1: been involved with, and it all could have been the

1304
01:15:59,320 --> 01:16:02,679
Speaker 1: thanks to the octopus. The octopus. But here's the here's

1305
01:16:02,680 --> 01:16:04,760
Speaker 1: the reason I don't believe any of that, is that

1306
01:16:04,960 --> 01:16:08,720
Speaker 1: the octopus could easily prevented the bank being investigated and

1307
01:16:08,800 --> 01:16:10,920
Speaker 1: shut down if they had that kind of power. So

1308
01:16:11,040 --> 01:16:16,879
Speaker 1: that's unless unless the bank had ceased to be useful

1309
01:16:18,120 --> 01:16:20,639
Speaker 1: in one way or the other. Either there was something

1310
01:16:21,040 --> 01:16:24,920
Speaker 1: wrong because like one of the two founders of the bank. Uh,

1311
01:16:25,160 --> 01:16:30,040
Speaker 1: he ran and then subsequently killed himself when the when

1312
01:16:30,160 --> 01:16:34,080
Speaker 1: everything got shut down. I get the feeling that he

1313
01:16:34,280 --> 01:16:38,439
Speaker 1: may have been a bit um what's the word I'm

1314
01:16:38,520 --> 01:16:41,559
Speaker 1: looking for, Not a loose cannon. But he was a little,

1315
01:16:42,680 --> 01:16:44,479
Speaker 1: a little embalanced. He was a bit of a trouble,

1316
01:16:44,560 --> 01:16:46,600
Speaker 1: you know, like this guy could be a problem, so

1317
01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:49,519
Speaker 1: we should probably do this. He was found another way

1318
01:16:49,600 --> 01:16:53,519
Speaker 1: to do it all. They may have found a way

1319
01:16:53,600 --> 01:16:56,400
Speaker 1: to do it all under the radar, so they didn't

1320
01:16:56,479 --> 01:16:59,519
Speaker 1: need it anymore. Like, you got to be careful in saying, well,

1321
01:16:59,800 --> 01:17:02,320
Speaker 1: you know, with these things, because there's a whole host

1322
01:17:02,439 --> 01:17:04,519
Speaker 1: of ways that could have been. It's also hard as

1323
01:17:04,600 --> 01:17:06,920
Speaker 1: soon as you start being able to say, like, well,

1324
01:17:07,080 --> 01:17:10,439
Speaker 1: this public thing happened, and it was connected to this bank,

1325
01:17:10,479 --> 01:17:12,600
Speaker 1: and then this public thing happened it was connected to

1326
01:17:12,640 --> 01:17:16,400
Speaker 1: this bank. As soon as those right coincidences start coming

1327
01:17:16,439 --> 01:17:20,080
Speaker 1: into play, I think that any smart shadow organization is

1328
01:17:20,080 --> 01:17:21,920
Speaker 1: going to say, I shut it down. We can't do

1329
01:17:22,040 --> 01:17:24,240
Speaker 1: that anymore. I can't do that. That's true. But when

1330
01:17:24,280 --> 01:17:26,320
Speaker 1: they when they shut it down and seize their assets,

1331
01:17:26,439 --> 01:17:31,080
Speaker 1: what were their assets specifically, I don't know, but again

1332
01:17:31,280 --> 01:17:36,719
Speaker 1: I know that they their assets were worth billion US

1333
01:17:36,840 --> 01:17:39,439
Speaker 1: at some point. At some point, well there was in

1334
01:17:39,880 --> 01:17:46,800
Speaker 1: eight in the early eighties. He was boxes not much today,

1335
01:17:46,840 --> 01:17:49,760
Speaker 1: but it was real money back in those days. So yeah,

1336
01:17:49,880 --> 01:17:51,400
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the way to tell if this was

1337
01:17:51,479 --> 01:17:55,320
Speaker 1: actually an octopus assets. If the books have been cooked

1338
01:17:55,520 --> 01:17:59,040
Speaker 1: and everything has been embezzled and essentially all the assets

1339
01:17:59,080 --> 01:18:02,400
Speaker 1: are gone when the bank is busted and there's only

1340
01:18:02,439 --> 01:18:04,880
Speaker 1: maybe a hundred million bucks laft at that, well there

1341
01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:07,960
Speaker 1: you know it was the octopus. There's twenty million bucks

1342
01:18:08,000 --> 01:18:11,200
Speaker 1: sitting there ssb sized. Well, it wasn't the occupus unless

1343
01:18:11,479 --> 01:18:15,480
Speaker 1: unless the US government is under the purview of the octopus.

1344
01:18:15,920 --> 01:18:23,840
Speaker 1: They read it, could they look shady? You see the

1345
01:18:23,960 --> 01:18:30,479
Speaker 1: feedback loop. That really difficult. But there are there's so

1346
01:18:30,600 --> 01:18:32,479
Speaker 1: many other things I want to talk about right now.

1347
01:18:32,560 --> 01:18:36,360
Speaker 1: There are a bunch more things that are in Castlero's

1348
01:18:36,439 --> 01:18:39,960
Speaker 1: notes of connections that he's made. We are, not, however,

1349
01:18:40,080 --> 01:18:42,479
Speaker 1: going to go through them all. I'm just going to

1350
01:18:42,720 --> 01:18:46,560
Speaker 1: list them out for you, really fast, talking fast. We

1351
01:18:46,640 --> 01:18:49,519
Speaker 1: have been over an hour already, so it is we've

1352
01:18:49,520 --> 01:18:53,360
Speaker 1: got to kind of get close herein According to either

1353
01:18:54,040 --> 01:18:59,120
Speaker 1: Danny Cassolero or Ken Thomas, depending on who made that

1354
01:18:59,280 --> 01:19:04,679
Speaker 1: particular link. We have the Watergate scandal and Nixon's outing

1355
01:19:05,200 --> 01:19:09,439
Speaker 1: as something that the octopus was responsible fort or ousting.

1356
01:19:09,720 --> 01:19:14,120
Speaker 1: Ousting would be correct. Nixon's outing he had a picnic

1357
01:19:14,240 --> 01:19:17,800
Speaker 1: baskets on the lawn. It was a great day. There's

1358
01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:21,280
Speaker 1: another kind of outing to okay, well, we can move on.

1359
01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:24,439
Speaker 1: There is and I really hope I pronounced this correctly,

1360
01:19:24,520 --> 01:19:28,800
Speaker 1: But there's the dismissal of the Australian Prime Minister go Whitlam.

1361
01:19:30,240 --> 01:19:34,400
Speaker 1: We have the well, potentially, according to this, maybe the

1362
01:19:34,600 --> 01:19:41,040
Speaker 1: revolution in Iran that outed the Shaw outed ousted. You

1363
01:19:41,120 --> 01:19:44,160
Speaker 1: know what, The Shaw went out, he went out for

1364
01:19:44,240 --> 01:19:48,600
Speaker 1: a night on the town. Joe his ousting. There is

1365
01:19:48,720 --> 01:19:54,000
Speaker 1: the murder of the Chilean President Salvador Allende, the assassination

1366
01:19:54,160 --> 01:19:59,280
Speaker 1: of US President Kennedy. There is man There's all kinds

1367
01:19:59,320 --> 01:20:05,280
Speaker 1: of reported shenanigans on the Papago Indian Reservation, uh anywhere,

1368
01:20:05,360 --> 01:20:09,520
Speaker 1: from c i A drug smuggling to golden platinum smuggling

1369
01:20:09,720 --> 01:20:13,240
Speaker 1: to a lot of weird stuff. But then then the

1370
01:20:13,320 --> 01:20:16,280
Speaker 1: list starts to get even crazier, because then we get

1371
01:20:16,360 --> 01:20:21,080
Speaker 1: area fifty one. We have the Human Genome Project, and

1372
01:20:21,320 --> 01:20:25,560
Speaker 1: we have the death of Princess Diana. I didn't know

1373
01:20:25,920 --> 01:20:29,040
Speaker 1: when we did that episode. Yeah, we know, we might

1374
01:20:29,080 --> 01:20:30,519
Speaker 1: have solved it. But this is how you know that

1375
01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:33,920
Speaker 1: the octopus is real, because they've actually put up a

1376
01:20:33,960 --> 01:20:36,120
Speaker 1: bunch of web pages and they keep grabbing these these

1377
01:20:36,200 --> 01:20:39,000
Speaker 1: all these accusations in tacking on lunear and lunear and

1378
01:20:39,080 --> 01:20:41,680
Speaker 1: lunear things, and so it's got to be the octopus.

1379
01:20:42,000 --> 01:20:44,160
Speaker 1: Well here's this, or it could be just random d

1380
01:20:44,320 --> 01:20:49,920
Speaker 1: bags on the internet. Yeah, I do. I do have

1381
01:20:50,080 --> 01:20:54,360
Speaker 1: to say that in any good conspiracy theory, if you've

1382
01:20:54,439 --> 01:20:58,240
Speaker 1: got a secret cabal, that is an operation, you have

1383
01:20:58,600 --> 01:21:03,000
Speaker 1: to have a bunch of people who die under mysterious circumstances,

1384
01:21:03,800 --> 01:21:06,479
Speaker 1: and Danny can't be the only one. And indeed there

1385
01:21:06,560 --> 01:21:09,760
Speaker 1: are a good number that are pointed to. Okay, let's

1386
01:21:09,760 --> 01:21:13,960
Speaker 1: do it. Okay. We have a journalist by the name

1387
01:21:14,240 --> 01:21:18,240
Speaker 1: of Anson ng. He was a reporter. He was he

1388
01:21:18,360 --> 01:21:21,040
Speaker 1: was shot and killed while he was in Guatemala. He

1389
01:21:21,160 --> 01:21:24,000
Speaker 1: was trying to track out a guy named Jimmy Hughes.

1390
01:21:24,600 --> 01:21:28,640
Speaker 1: Jimmy Hughes was actually connected to the Kabazon Indian Reservation.

1391
01:21:29,720 --> 01:21:33,800
Speaker 1: Shot in the chest, it was ruled a suicide. Sure not,

1392
01:21:33,880 --> 01:21:36,560
Speaker 1: probably not the first choice for suicidal people. But you

1393
01:21:36,640 --> 01:21:40,360
Speaker 1: know guy named Jonathan Moyle. He was an editor for

1394
01:21:40,680 --> 01:21:44,840
Speaker 1: Defense Helicopter World, which was a magazine. He was found

1395
01:21:45,000 --> 01:21:47,720
Speaker 1: hanging in a wardrobe in his hotel room with a

1396
01:21:47,800 --> 01:21:52,360
Speaker 1: pillow case over his head in March of Initially, the

1397
01:21:52,439 --> 01:21:56,439
Speaker 1: death was ruled a suicide, even though there was blood

1398
01:21:56,479 --> 01:21:58,680
Speaker 1: on his bed and a needle mark in his leg.

1399
01:21:59,040 --> 01:22:02,360
Speaker 1: Eight years later it was ruled a murder. We have

1400
01:22:02,960 --> 01:22:08,080
Speaker 1: Alan Standorf. His Standoffs job was to oversee security measures

1401
01:22:08,280 --> 01:22:12,960
Speaker 1: at vent Hill, which is described as a listening post um.

1402
01:22:13,360 --> 01:22:18,280
Speaker 1: It would monitor radio communications. He went home for the holidays.

1403
01:22:18,479 --> 01:22:23,719
Speaker 1: In one for the Christmas holiday, left his family went

1404
01:22:23,880 --> 01:22:26,880
Speaker 1: home and was found dead in the backseat of his

1405
01:22:27,040 --> 01:22:31,160
Speaker 1: car at the airport on the fourth of January two.

1406
01:22:31,680 --> 01:22:34,160
Speaker 1: He died from blunt force trauma to the back of

1407
01:22:34,240 --> 01:22:37,320
Speaker 1: his head. That was ruled a suicide, right, I believe

1408
01:22:37,479 --> 01:22:42,160
Speaker 1: it was ruled suicide or they just had no no leads.

1409
01:22:42,400 --> 01:22:47,040
Speaker 1: I feel listing our next twenty episodes, well I don't

1410
01:22:47,080 --> 01:22:52,360
Speaker 1: have twenty people. Thankfully we have Larry Garon. Larry was

1411
01:22:52,600 --> 01:22:56,519
Speaker 1: a private investigator who worked for Danger Man and was

1412
01:22:56,640 --> 01:23:00,920
Speaker 1: killed in seven while he was investigating the ins Law case.

1413
01:23:01,200 --> 01:23:05,599
Speaker 1: It's according to danger Man himself. Well, no, I believe

1414
01:23:05,720 --> 01:23:07,720
Speaker 1: that it is known. Because he was a p I.

1415
01:23:07,880 --> 01:23:09,599
Speaker 1: It was known that he was looking into the ins

1416
01:23:09,640 --> 01:23:12,360
Speaker 1: law case. But his death, we don't really know what

1417
01:23:12,479 --> 01:23:15,800
Speaker 1: the deal was. We have another guy by the name

1418
01:23:15,880 --> 01:23:20,040
Speaker 1: of Paul Wilcher. Wilcher was a lawyer who who died

1419
01:23:20,240 --> 01:23:25,879
Speaker 1: in you see it called disputed circumstances on a regular basis.

1420
01:23:26,160 --> 01:23:30,800
Speaker 1: He died in disputed circumstances a month after he wrote

1421
01:23:30,800 --> 01:23:34,640
Speaker 1: a letter to the then newly appointed U. S. Attorney

1422
01:23:34,720 --> 01:23:38,600
Speaker 1: General Janet Reno. He was saying that the CIA was

1423
01:23:38,760 --> 01:23:43,120
Speaker 1: killing people to cover up its mind control experiments and

1424
01:23:43,560 --> 01:23:47,719
Speaker 1: that Waco was the incident that happened in Waco, Texas

1425
01:23:48,240 --> 01:23:51,040
Speaker 1: was one of those events. The point here is he

1426
01:23:51,160 --> 01:23:53,599
Speaker 1: wrote this letter and he said Waco was a cover up.

1427
01:23:54,400 --> 01:23:59,679
Speaker 1: On the twenty three of June, he was found dead

1428
01:24:00,040 --> 01:24:04,000
Speaker 1: in his apartment. He was tied in a fetal position.

1429
01:24:04,800 --> 01:24:07,759
Speaker 1: Um oh. And by the way, he also he also

1430
01:24:07,880 --> 01:24:11,200
Speaker 1: had as a lawyer represented Danger Man, as well as

1431
01:24:11,240 --> 01:24:14,800
Speaker 1: another guy who was a pilot who said that he

1432
01:24:14,960 --> 01:24:20,000
Speaker 1: had flown George H. W. Bush to his meeting for

1433
01:24:20,760 --> 01:24:24,880
Speaker 1: setting up the October Surprise. Last guy on the list

1434
01:24:25,240 --> 01:24:31,799
Speaker 1: is Ian Spiro. Spiro possibly. I don't see any exact

1435
01:24:31,880 --> 01:24:34,080
Speaker 1: stuff on this, but he had worked for both the

1436
01:24:34,280 --> 01:24:38,800
Speaker 1: CIA and the British Intelligence and he's alleged to have

1437
01:24:38,960 --> 01:24:42,960
Speaker 1: worked on or with the campaign for October Surprise, and

1438
01:24:43,479 --> 01:24:48,040
Speaker 1: the and the Iran contra affair. Oh and the the

1439
01:24:48,280 --> 01:24:53,120
Speaker 1: Lebanon hostage crisis. Oh and uh. He also talked to

1440
01:24:53,400 --> 01:24:56,760
Speaker 1: Danger Man, so he has a lot of connections. Well.

1441
01:24:57,560 --> 01:25:01,400
Speaker 1: His wife, his son, and his daughters were found shot

1442
01:25:01,479 --> 01:25:05,519
Speaker 1: to death on the fifth of October. Four days later,

1443
01:25:05,960 --> 01:25:09,200
Speaker 1: he was found dead behind the wheel of his suv.

1444
01:25:09,920 --> 01:25:14,560
Speaker 1: He died of cyanide poison. Yeah, that's not suspicious at all. No,

1445
01:25:14,880 --> 01:25:20,000
Speaker 1: that's obvious murder suicide. Okay, So, ladies and gentlemen, that

1446
01:25:20,520 --> 01:25:24,599
Speaker 1: is a the story of Danny Casilero and the octopus,

1447
01:25:25,040 --> 01:25:28,760
Speaker 1: and the octopus and a bunch of the pieces that

1448
01:25:29,000 --> 01:25:34,080
Speaker 1: are claimed to have linked the octopus to the death

1449
01:25:34,320 --> 01:25:37,000
Speaker 1: of Danny. I'm not quite seeing all the connections there.

1450
01:25:37,280 --> 01:25:39,519
Speaker 1: So we we have a we have two simple theories,

1451
01:25:40,280 --> 01:25:43,560
Speaker 1: and our theories are only focused on Casilero. We're not

1452
01:25:43,600 --> 01:25:46,479
Speaker 1: going to go into the octopus, because that I think

1453
01:25:46,560 --> 01:25:49,400
Speaker 1: we've done enough of We're going to just talk about

1454
01:25:49,439 --> 01:25:52,840
Speaker 1: the two theories, which is either a he did kill

1455
01:25:53,000 --> 01:25:57,240
Speaker 1: himself or be he did not, which means somebody else

1456
01:25:57,400 --> 01:26:00,559
Speaker 1: did right well, the first thing that people will turn

1457
01:26:00,680 --> 01:26:04,040
Speaker 1: to in the theory that he killed himself, that he

1458
01:26:04,120 --> 01:26:08,560
Speaker 1: committed suicide is that he had money problems and he

1459
01:26:08,920 --> 01:26:12,320
Speaker 1: wasn't doing that great financially. Like I said before, he

1460
01:26:12,520 --> 01:26:15,960
Speaker 1: sold his interest in the magazine pretty early and could

1461
01:26:16,000 --> 01:26:17,880
Speaker 1: have gotten a lot more money had he waited longer.

1462
01:26:18,200 --> 01:26:19,920
Speaker 1: He might have been a little depressed about that. Huh.

1463
01:26:20,200 --> 01:26:23,600
Speaker 1: Possibly he also had written a book which was not

1464
01:26:23,840 --> 01:26:26,160
Speaker 1: a seller. In other words, he was not really making

1465
01:26:26,200 --> 01:26:29,680
Speaker 1: any money off of that book. But then again, his

1466
01:26:29,840 --> 01:26:32,680
Speaker 1: family had money, so he could have probably got some

1467
01:26:32,800 --> 01:26:35,439
Speaker 1: help with from his family. You know. The thing about

1468
01:26:35,479 --> 01:26:36,960
Speaker 1: it is is he don't know how often he's gone

1469
01:26:37,000 --> 01:26:39,240
Speaker 1: to his family for help in the past. He might

1470
01:26:39,400 --> 01:26:41,720
Speaker 1: like just really not relish the idea of going back

1471
01:26:41,800 --> 01:26:45,000
Speaker 1: yet again. I never want to ask my family for money.

1472
01:26:47,080 --> 01:26:50,040
Speaker 1: There are things that you will find about him. He

1473
01:26:50,320 --> 01:26:55,240
Speaker 1: had they they found out in the through the medical

1474
01:26:55,280 --> 01:26:59,680
Speaker 1: examination the autopsy, they found out that he had multiple sclerosis.

1475
01:27:00,439 --> 01:27:03,560
Speaker 1: And he evidently had been given a diagnosis of that

1476
01:27:03,920 --> 01:27:07,519
Speaker 1: prior to it sounds like at least six months prior

1477
01:27:07,640 --> 01:27:09,800
Speaker 1: to his death. It also sounds like he had a

1478
01:27:10,080 --> 01:27:13,639
Speaker 1: very very mild case of it. But you will see

1479
01:27:13,720 --> 01:27:16,960
Speaker 1: that pointed to as a reason for him to have

1480
01:27:17,200 --> 01:27:21,479
Speaker 1: decided to end his life. It's a very minor, minor

1481
01:27:21,600 --> 01:27:24,559
Speaker 1: case though. But we also have things that we talked

1482
01:27:24,560 --> 01:27:28,599
Speaker 1: about before, which is there was nothing in his system

1483
01:27:29,000 --> 01:27:34,000
Speaker 1: of any significant amount in terms of drugs or alcohol,

1484
01:27:35,160 --> 01:27:39,040
Speaker 1: which kind of really deals a serious blow to the

1485
01:27:39,200 --> 01:27:42,200
Speaker 1: theory that somebody else did him because did him in

1486
01:27:42,640 --> 01:27:45,200
Speaker 1: because you would think that they would have easy route

1487
01:27:45,640 --> 01:27:49,120
Speaker 1: drugged him or got him drunk so that he was

1488
01:27:49,320 --> 01:27:53,840
Speaker 1: incapacitated and couldn't fight back. Yeah, because that's that's the

1489
01:27:53,880 --> 01:27:55,720
Speaker 1: whole thing. That there's no marks on his body, no

1490
01:27:55,840 --> 01:27:57,800
Speaker 1: signs of a struggle all. Of course, if they'd been

1491
01:27:57,800 --> 01:27:59,759
Speaker 1: a struggle, they could have straightened things up. I suppose

1492
01:27:59,840 --> 01:28:02,479
Speaker 1: a bit more than left. And then it's hard also,

1493
01:28:02,760 --> 01:28:06,760
Speaker 1: sorry with the plastic bags, if you think, you know,

1494
01:28:06,920 --> 01:28:09,680
Speaker 1: they kind of strangled him almost I don't know how

1495
01:28:09,760 --> 01:28:13,840
Speaker 1: extensive the autopsies were. And if if you were just

1496
01:28:13,920 --> 01:28:16,960
Speaker 1: strangled him until he passed out and then cut his

1497
01:28:17,040 --> 01:28:23,640
Speaker 1: wrists and then left. You know, you would think, but

1498
01:28:24,040 --> 01:28:27,240
Speaker 1: he would he would have struggled back. He plastic bag

1499
01:28:27,320 --> 01:28:29,880
Speaker 1: over the head, for example. I'll buy that. But there

1500
01:28:30,120 --> 01:28:32,160
Speaker 1: there's gonna be bruises, there's gonna be mark from where

1501
01:28:32,240 --> 01:28:34,920
Speaker 1: somebody gripped his arms and hold them down so that

1502
01:28:35,000 --> 01:28:37,640
Speaker 1: they can hold the bag on his head. Here's the

1503
01:28:37,800 --> 01:28:40,880
Speaker 1: other problem, and this is one of the things that

1504
01:28:41,280 --> 01:28:45,479
Speaker 1: is a major, major mark against the fact that he

1505
01:28:45,880 --> 01:28:50,200
Speaker 1: was killed by somebody else. And that is the investigation

1506
01:28:50,560 --> 01:28:55,760
Speaker 1: that was done and the into the scene in the bathroom,

1507
01:28:55,960 --> 01:28:58,720
Speaker 1: they pathology I think it was. I want to say

1508
01:28:58,720 --> 01:29:01,400
Speaker 1: it's a pathologist. This guy name I can never remember

1509
01:29:01,520 --> 01:29:05,120
Speaker 1: and I've had a hard time finding his stuff. But basically,

1510
01:29:05,280 --> 01:29:09,000
Speaker 1: they gave all this information to a crime scene investigator

1511
01:29:09,120 --> 01:29:12,599
Speaker 1: and said, look at the blood spray, look at where

1512
01:29:12,680 --> 01:29:16,000
Speaker 1: everything is. And this guy went through and he said,

1513
01:29:16,760 --> 01:29:21,040
Speaker 1: oh yeah, it's pretty obvious that nobody else was there

1514
01:29:21,080 --> 01:29:25,479
Speaker 1: because there was no void, there was no no no

1515
01:29:25,760 --> 01:29:30,240
Speaker 1: shadows in the blood splatter spatter, which means nobody was

1516
01:29:30,360 --> 01:29:36,200
Speaker 1: standing there to catch that spraying liquid. Now, the weird

1517
01:29:36,400 --> 01:29:40,479
Speaker 1: thing about that guy is that he worked for the octopus. No,

1518
01:29:41,520 --> 01:29:46,080
Speaker 1: there is there is some point in the scene. I

1519
01:29:46,240 --> 01:29:50,400
Speaker 1: think it's the towels on the floor that was not

1520
01:29:50,720 --> 01:29:54,880
Speaker 1: initially given to him and in all of the description

1521
01:29:55,000 --> 01:29:58,759
Speaker 1: of the scene that he got. And it's the weirdest

1522
01:29:58,840 --> 01:30:00,800
Speaker 1: thing is that as soon as he found out about

1523
01:30:00,880 --> 01:30:04,320
Speaker 1: the towels, he retracted the whole thing. I didn't have

1524
01:30:04,400 --> 01:30:07,880
Speaker 1: all the information. That can't be a correct I can't

1525
01:30:07,960 --> 01:30:11,360
Speaker 1: stand behind what I said because I can't say that

1526
01:30:11,479 --> 01:30:15,120
Speaker 1: it's right, because it's just it's how exactly the towels

1527
01:30:15,240 --> 01:30:18,720
Speaker 1: negate his his observation that there were no shadows. I

1528
01:30:18,920 --> 01:30:23,160
Speaker 1: don't freaking no, I don't get well, okay in fairness right,

1529
01:30:23,479 --> 01:30:25,680
Speaker 1: And maybe it's from a professional stance. I don't want

1530
01:30:25,680 --> 01:30:28,840
Speaker 1: to I don't want to make this clay and yeah,

1531
01:30:29,080 --> 01:30:31,679
Speaker 1: but I guess it's you know again, they're they aren't

1532
01:30:31,680 --> 01:30:33,920
Speaker 1: really crime scene photos. I haven't gone out to see,

1533
01:30:34,040 --> 01:30:36,280
Speaker 1: but it seems reasonable that there would be a place

1534
01:30:36,400 --> 01:30:39,800
Speaker 1: that one could stand that wouldn't create a shadow, that

1535
01:30:39,840 --> 01:30:42,360
Speaker 1: would just make blood free. It's not like it's a

1536
01:30:42,400 --> 01:30:45,120
Speaker 1: three and sixty you would have to because in the

1537
01:30:45,320 --> 01:30:50,360
Speaker 1: tub under the water if Yeah, because he's talking like

1538
01:30:50,400 --> 01:30:52,320
Speaker 1: blood spatter not just on the walls but on the

1539
01:30:52,400 --> 01:30:55,640
Speaker 1: floor too, right, So I would I would guess that

1540
01:30:55,840 --> 01:30:59,519
Speaker 1: the towels had something to do with where the blood

1541
01:30:59,560 --> 01:31:03,200
Speaker 1: would have reasonably flowed and how saturated the towels would

1542
01:31:03,240 --> 01:31:05,680
Speaker 1: have been. Really, really would be my guess, if I

1543
01:31:05,760 --> 01:31:08,320
Speaker 1: had to guess why he would retract that. But you know,

1544
01:31:08,400 --> 01:31:10,920
Speaker 1: the other hand is of maybe he just on a

1545
01:31:11,000 --> 01:31:13,800
Speaker 1: professional courtesy, was like, oh, I didn't actually have all

1546
01:31:13,800 --> 01:31:17,280
Speaker 1: the information. I'm not comfortable doing this anyway a thing.

1547
01:31:17,520 --> 01:31:22,960
Speaker 1: I mean, it almost I almost got the impression that

1548
01:31:23,360 --> 01:31:25,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know about you, but from the

1549
01:31:25,040 --> 01:31:26,679
Speaker 1: way we've described it, I'm sure a lot of people

1550
01:31:26,720 --> 01:31:29,040
Speaker 1: are thinking, well, he did the deed in the top,

1551
01:31:29,640 --> 01:31:33,720
Speaker 1: but it almost gave me the impression that he did

1552
01:31:33,880 --> 01:31:37,840
Speaker 1: at least the initial cuts while not in the tub,

1553
01:31:38,520 --> 01:31:40,560
Speaker 1: and then kind of had that if you ever done this,

1554
01:31:40,680 --> 01:31:41,960
Speaker 1: you start to make a mess and you have that

1555
01:31:42,240 --> 01:31:44,280
Speaker 1: initial panic off. I got to at least kind of

1556
01:31:44,520 --> 01:31:47,000
Speaker 1: stem this and clean it up, and tried to clean

1557
01:31:47,040 --> 01:31:49,519
Speaker 1: it up and then realize the foolishness of what he

1558
01:31:49,640 --> 01:31:51,160
Speaker 1: was doing, and then just went ahead and gotten the

1559
01:31:51,200 --> 01:31:54,320
Speaker 1: tub and hung out like he might have been out

1560
01:31:54,520 --> 01:31:58,320
Speaker 1: of the bath standing somewhere in the bathroom when he

1561
01:31:58,400 --> 01:32:01,679
Speaker 1: had did at least one or two of the number

1562
01:32:01,800 --> 01:32:04,720
Speaker 1: one just standard thing that you hear in conjunction with

1563
01:32:05,200 --> 01:32:08,840
Speaker 1: with suicides, as people instantly regretting it and trying to

1564
01:32:08,960 --> 01:32:11,960
Speaker 1: remedy it. Right, So maybe he was trying to apply

1565
01:32:12,080 --> 01:32:17,840
Speaker 1: pressure or or something. But the other thing that I

1566
01:32:17,960 --> 01:32:22,280
Speaker 1: keep questioning is like, realistically, how much spray are you

1567
01:32:22,360 --> 01:32:25,960
Speaker 1: going to get with cutting your wrists? Like how far

1568
01:32:26,120 --> 01:32:29,920
Speaker 1: up the wall can you reasonably expect spray to go?

1569
01:32:31,439 --> 01:32:35,040
Speaker 1: I don't know. I know that if you hit an

1570
01:32:35,160 --> 01:32:38,880
Speaker 1: heartary or you hit a vein correctly, I know that

1571
01:32:39,040 --> 01:32:43,000
Speaker 1: you can that that blood will flow or spray quite

1572
01:32:43,040 --> 01:32:45,840
Speaker 1: a disk like a juggular or something. But I just

1573
01:32:45,920 --> 01:32:49,040
Speaker 1: don't know if the blood flow in your wrist necessarily

1574
01:32:49,240 --> 01:32:52,600
Speaker 1: is like going to be spraying Like I don't I

1575
01:32:52,600 --> 01:32:54,360
Speaker 1: don't want to get I don't know about it. I

1576
01:32:54,400 --> 01:32:56,360
Speaker 1: mean I can think about like if you're clenching your

1577
01:32:56,439 --> 01:32:58,800
Speaker 1: fist or something. I mean, there's there's some ways that

1578
01:32:58,880 --> 01:33:01,960
Speaker 1: it possibly could go, but I don't know. I'm not sure.

1579
01:33:02,520 --> 01:33:05,320
Speaker 1: But you know, as far as the suicide theory goes,

1580
01:33:05,479 --> 01:33:08,479
Speaker 1: I would have to say that considering all all the

1581
01:33:08,560 --> 01:33:12,840
Speaker 1: other murders that the octopus has been accused of, this

1582
01:33:13,000 --> 01:33:15,600
Speaker 1: is kind of the most undane. So it's kind of

1583
01:33:15,760 --> 01:33:17,760
Speaker 1: it's the most subtle. It's the only one where they

1584
01:33:17,840 --> 01:33:20,000
Speaker 1: really bothered to try to cover their tracks, I orre

1585
01:33:20,080 --> 01:33:22,040
Speaker 1: to believe those other ones. So we're looking at here,

1586
01:33:22,080 --> 01:33:24,720
Speaker 1: shot in the chest, shot in the chest, hung that

1587
01:33:24,800 --> 01:33:27,760
Speaker 1: had needle marksh in his leg. It was real murders,

1588
01:33:30,240 --> 01:33:35,120
Speaker 1: shot tied up in a field position. It looks the

1589
01:33:35,320 --> 01:33:38,160
Speaker 1: most like an actual suicide. Yeah, why did it take

1590
01:33:38,880 --> 01:33:43,240
Speaker 1: trouble for Danny Castle. Here's the other thing that leans

1591
01:33:43,400 --> 01:33:47,840
Speaker 1: towards the fact that he he probably did commit suicide

1592
01:33:47,880 --> 01:33:50,080
Speaker 1: for this theory. When we're in this theory, is that

1593
01:33:50,800 --> 01:33:54,920
Speaker 1: Mike Looney, he was in the room adjacent on one

1594
01:33:55,000 --> 01:33:58,479
Speaker 1: side and there was a family on in the room

1595
01:33:58,760 --> 01:34:02,799
Speaker 1: on the other side of him. Nobody reported any noise.

1596
01:34:03,680 --> 01:34:07,240
Speaker 1: There was no I mean, after the fact, when investigators

1597
01:34:07,320 --> 01:34:10,360
Speaker 1: came to him, nobody's like, you know, it's weird. It

1598
01:34:10,479 --> 01:34:13,120
Speaker 1: sounded like somebody fell out of the bathroom or something like. None,

1599
01:34:13,280 --> 01:34:16,680
Speaker 1: none of that. Nothing. That the family was probably like

1600
01:34:16,840 --> 01:34:21,800
Speaker 1: a family of octopus assassins, just mom, dad, female and

1601
01:34:21,840 --> 01:34:27,479
Speaker 1: then and then a dwarf assassin a little, small, small octopus. Yes,

1602
01:34:28,360 --> 01:34:31,120
Speaker 1: let's move on to the other side of the theory,

1603
01:34:31,200 --> 01:34:35,840
Speaker 1: which is that the octopus killed Danny um. Well, we

1604
01:34:35,920 --> 01:34:38,759
Speaker 1: talked about the money problems thing, and again it seems

1605
01:34:38,760 --> 01:34:41,800
Speaker 1: a little weird that his family could have helped him out.

1606
01:34:41,880 --> 01:34:44,839
Speaker 1: But we've talked about this. We talked about this earlier.

1607
01:34:44,960 --> 01:34:48,479
Speaker 1: Is that the cuts in his wrist were so deep

1608
01:34:48,760 --> 01:34:52,040
Speaker 1: that it doesn't seem like somebody could have continued on

1609
01:34:52,479 --> 01:34:56,360
Speaker 1: after one or two of them unaided. That does give

1610
01:34:56,479 --> 01:34:59,400
Speaker 1: people the idea that he did it himself, or that

1611
01:34:59,479 --> 01:35:03,560
Speaker 1: he couldn't done it himself. Excuse me, I have and

1612
01:35:03,680 --> 01:35:06,040
Speaker 1: I don't mean to sound like an a hole here,

1613
01:35:06,080 --> 01:35:10,120
Speaker 1: but I do have a problem with the note that

1614
01:35:10,280 --> 01:35:13,559
Speaker 1: he left. It's only five lines long, and it's kind

1615
01:35:13,560 --> 01:35:17,280
Speaker 1: of written in a prose style the way it's broken up,

1616
01:35:17,960 --> 01:35:21,760
Speaker 1: But if you read any of his writings that way,

1617
01:35:21,920 --> 01:35:25,040
Speaker 1: it's not the guy personally. I think he took way

1618
01:35:25,120 --> 01:35:28,240
Speaker 1: too many words to make a point. So I really

1619
01:35:28,360 --> 01:35:31,280
Speaker 1: feel like he would have written much more about why

1620
01:35:31,479 --> 01:35:34,240
Speaker 1: he was doing what he was doing. But of course,

1621
01:35:34,400 --> 01:35:37,000
Speaker 1: at the same sign, if he was actually suicidal, he

1622
01:35:37,160 --> 01:35:39,880
Speaker 1: was not in a normal state of mind exactly. That's

1623
01:35:39,960 --> 01:35:44,000
Speaker 1: very true. The other thing that is weird about his

1624
01:35:44,120 --> 01:35:48,560
Speaker 1: suicide note is that he makes a very direct reference

1625
01:35:48,640 --> 01:35:54,640
Speaker 1: to God. Casslero was Roman Catholic, but he wasn't. He

1626
01:35:54,840 --> 01:35:58,679
Speaker 1: wasn't really religious, wasn't a big deal in a lot

1627
01:35:59,000 --> 01:36:00,880
Speaker 1: in his life, and a lot of the people that

1628
01:36:01,040 --> 01:36:05,519
Speaker 1: knew him didn't didn't understand why he would make a

1629
01:36:05,640 --> 01:36:09,720
Speaker 1: reference to God in his suicide note that God is

1630
01:36:09,760 --> 01:36:14,440
Speaker 1: going to let him in because for all intents and purposes,

1631
01:36:15,160 --> 01:36:18,600
Speaker 1: operated without a care towards that. What do you do

1632
01:36:18,640 --> 01:36:21,880
Speaker 1: you know? If his family was particularly religious, it sounds

1633
01:36:21,960 --> 01:36:24,160
Speaker 1: like some of them were and some of them weren't.

1634
01:36:24,439 --> 01:36:26,639
Speaker 1: What about his son, He had drifted and I don't

1635
01:36:26,640 --> 01:36:29,040
Speaker 1: know about his son, to be honestly, again, his son,

1636
01:36:29,240 --> 01:36:32,080
Speaker 1: his son is one of the hardest ones to find anything. Yeah, really,

1637
01:36:32,280 --> 01:36:34,280
Speaker 1: I mean not that I tried to pursue that, but

1638
01:36:34,640 --> 01:36:37,080
Speaker 1: I never really saw a lot of them. So I

1639
01:36:37,160 --> 01:36:40,040
Speaker 1: think the explanation for the God thing is that obviously,

1640
01:36:40,160 --> 01:36:42,400
Speaker 1: if you kill yourself, you're a Catholic, and you kill yourself,

1641
01:36:42,520 --> 01:36:46,160
Speaker 1: you're right. And so it might have been his way

1642
01:36:46,160 --> 01:36:48,120
Speaker 1: of saying, hey, family, I don't worry about me. I

1643
01:36:48,160 --> 01:36:50,519
Speaker 1: think God's gonna let me in. Yeah, it's gonna be okay,

1644
01:36:50,640 --> 01:36:52,880
Speaker 1: it's gonna yeah. I think I might have been. I

1645
01:36:52,920 --> 01:36:55,760
Speaker 1: don't know. It's it's weird. I this is another one

1646
01:36:55,800 --> 01:36:59,200
Speaker 1: of those that I'm just kind of I'm not But

1647
01:36:59,400 --> 01:37:02,920
Speaker 1: he killed himself, well, I really I agree with Joe.

1648
01:37:03,040 --> 01:37:07,599
Speaker 1: I sadly think that he killed himself and for reasons

1649
01:37:07,680 --> 01:37:10,120
Speaker 1: that I don't understand. I guess that's for me. It's

1650
01:37:10,160 --> 01:37:14,200
Speaker 1: the big question mark that adds that component of he

1651
01:37:14,320 --> 01:37:17,880
Speaker 1: was murdered is that, like, I literally cannot find a

1652
01:37:18,000 --> 01:37:21,160
Speaker 1: single thing that makes me think that he was suicidal.

1653
01:37:21,560 --> 01:37:24,920
Speaker 1: That is the problem that there's people that kill themselves

1654
01:37:24,960 --> 01:37:27,720
Speaker 1: all the time. We had no idea that there was

1655
01:37:27,760 --> 01:37:32,400
Speaker 1: anything wrong. And I understand your of thinking that he's murdered,

1656
01:37:32,520 --> 01:37:36,200
Speaker 1: because there is always, especially when we're dealing with a

1657
01:37:36,600 --> 01:37:41,000
Speaker 1: conspiracy like this, there's always that thought that they were

1658
01:37:41,120 --> 01:37:44,960
Speaker 1: good enough that there was a shadow and they brought

1659
01:37:45,040 --> 01:37:48,559
Speaker 1: a catchup bottle full of matching blood type or they

1660
01:37:48,800 --> 01:37:51,639
Speaker 1: sprayed it on the left. Would have been so hard

1661
01:37:51,680 --> 01:37:54,000
Speaker 1: to get his blood it was pouring out of him.

1662
01:37:54,840 --> 01:37:57,559
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of there's a. I mean,

1663
01:37:57,760 --> 01:38:01,080
Speaker 1: we we could talk about all of that stuff. There's

1664
01:38:01,120 --> 01:38:04,040
Speaker 1: a lot of ways that it could go, but that

1665
01:38:04,439 --> 01:38:07,240
Speaker 1: is a that is a hell of a reach. Is

1666
01:38:10,080 --> 01:38:12,640
Speaker 1: consider that these guys were not very subtle in their

1667
01:38:12,680 --> 01:38:15,960
Speaker 1: other murders, right, and so we're busy like running multi

1668
01:38:16,240 --> 01:38:20,120
Speaker 1: national you know, laundering scheme. Right. So we're talking only

1669
01:38:20,120 --> 01:38:22,200
Speaker 1: about that suicide, right, We're not talking about if thought

1670
01:38:22,280 --> 01:38:25,920
Speaker 1: post is really or not. Well, this is a different thing, Okay,

1671
01:38:26,000 --> 01:38:27,960
Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you, And I think I think

1672
01:38:28,040 --> 01:38:29,720
Speaker 1: Joe is probably gonna be on the same page as

1673
01:38:29,760 --> 01:38:31,400
Speaker 1: I am, because I know we've talked about this on

1674
01:38:31,520 --> 01:38:36,920
Speaker 1: this podcast before. I think that an organization of the

1675
01:38:37,240 --> 01:38:43,080
Speaker 1: size and complexity that it is purported to be is impossible,

1676
01:38:45,320 --> 01:38:49,880
Speaker 1: you can, Okay, that's that's a perfect thing to add

1677
01:38:49,960 --> 01:38:56,320
Speaker 1: in because people are loudmouth idiots, and while they may

1678
01:38:56,640 --> 01:38:59,479
Speaker 1: be able to do something, they would not all of

1679
01:38:59,560 --> 01:39:01,640
Speaker 1: them be a will to do it in secret. So

1680
01:39:01,840 --> 01:39:04,760
Speaker 1: I personally think that at least at the scale that

1681
01:39:04,840 --> 01:39:08,040
Speaker 1: it's said to be, the octopus isn't real. Maybe it

1682
01:39:08,280 --> 01:39:11,320
Speaker 1: is a very small little group that has a lot

1683
01:39:11,400 --> 01:39:16,200
Speaker 1: of influences that does small things, but nowhere near the

1684
01:39:16,240 --> 01:39:20,200
Speaker 1: scale interesting. Yeah, and also the inter relation between all

1685
01:39:20,280 --> 01:39:22,240
Speaker 1: these different things. It's not it is not at all

1686
01:39:22,400 --> 01:39:24,800
Speaker 1: clear to me. Oh you mean like Princess Die and

1687
01:39:24,880 --> 01:39:28,760
Speaker 1: all of that. I will point the finger right back

1688
01:39:28,880 --> 01:39:33,240
Speaker 1: at at Kent Thomas for that. I really think. I

1689
01:39:33,400 --> 01:39:35,360
Speaker 1: really think that he got near the end of his

1690
01:39:35,439 --> 01:39:38,519
Speaker 1: book and said, oh crap, I have a word count

1691
01:39:38,560 --> 01:39:43,160
Speaker 1: to meet. Let's pull something else in. Yeah, that's yeah.

1692
01:39:44,040 --> 01:39:46,720
Speaker 1: You obviously have an opinion on the Oh no, I

1693
01:39:46,880 --> 01:39:49,679
Speaker 1: just think I'm curious what it is actually at this point.

1694
01:39:50,880 --> 01:39:55,000
Speaker 1: I just you know, I watched my method of research

1695
01:39:55,080 --> 01:39:58,640
Speaker 1: on this with a lot of YouTube videos into my

1696
01:39:58,760 --> 01:40:02,759
Speaker 1: life right now, um, and I was watching a number

1697
01:40:02,800 --> 01:40:05,200
Speaker 1: of YouTube videos and there were some that were even

1698
01:40:05,280 --> 01:40:08,120
Speaker 1: referencing these movies. I think you watched this as well.

1699
01:40:08,560 --> 01:40:11,920
Speaker 1: This one movie that was made in nineteen forty six

1700
01:40:12,760 --> 01:40:18,519
Speaker 1: that was talking about global business powers. Eight global business

1701
01:40:18,560 --> 01:40:23,479
Speaker 1: powers that really run everything is still one of it, right,

1702
01:40:23,560 --> 01:40:25,320
Speaker 1: So I think, you know, when we run into things

1703
01:40:25,400 --> 01:40:28,040
Speaker 1: like this, I'm you know, I have a hard time

1704
01:40:28,240 --> 01:40:32,920
Speaker 1: going the full government conspiracy theory route, but I am

1705
01:40:33,040 --> 01:40:37,439
Speaker 1: willing to go the there are there are powers in

1706
01:40:37,520 --> 01:40:39,680
Speaker 1: our world that run our lives that we may not

1707
01:40:39,840 --> 01:40:42,840
Speaker 1: be totally aware of totally willing to go there. So

1708
01:40:43,000 --> 01:40:45,880
Speaker 1: that's kind of where my hesitation comes in. I'm not

1709
01:40:46,280 --> 01:40:49,240
Speaker 1: fully tin hat on this guy, but I'm also like,

1710
01:40:49,320 --> 01:40:51,640
Speaker 1: I've got tinfoil in my drawer that I'm really to

1711
01:40:51,720 --> 01:40:53,800
Speaker 1: pull out if need be. Well, you gotta keep some

1712
01:40:53,840 --> 01:40:58,920
Speaker 1: of that stuff around. But so that's that's where that

1713
01:40:59,040 --> 01:41:00,920
Speaker 1: kind of comes in for me, that like, I'm not

1714
01:41:01,040 --> 01:41:03,320
Speaker 1: willing to say that any or all of this stuff

1715
01:41:03,720 --> 01:41:05,960
Speaker 1: is conspiracy stuff. I'm not even willing to say the

1716
01:41:06,040 --> 01:41:09,880
Speaker 1: octopus is real, but I do I don't know. There

1717
01:41:09,960 --> 01:41:12,479
Speaker 1: might be something like it, There might be something similar

1718
01:41:12,600 --> 01:41:15,120
Speaker 1: to it, and it may not be as nefarious or

1719
01:41:15,160 --> 01:41:19,720
Speaker 1: consciously nefarious as we want to assume. But definitely there

1720
01:41:19,760 --> 01:41:22,080
Speaker 1: are things that run our lives that we don't know about. Well,

1721
01:41:22,160 --> 01:41:24,479
Speaker 1: probably I think that most I think the most likely

1722
01:41:24,560 --> 01:41:28,360
Speaker 1: Danny was probably being fed most of the stuff by

1723
01:41:28,680 --> 01:41:34,479
Speaker 1: danger man A K. A. Ricciotto. Yeah, he's amazing with

1724
01:41:34,640 --> 01:41:36,960
Speaker 1: the things that he said. It really is, and I

1725
01:41:37,120 --> 01:41:40,760
Speaker 1: think that I don't think he was murdered because if

1726
01:41:40,800 --> 01:41:43,320
Speaker 1: he was, if he in his research were such a

1727
01:41:43,439 --> 01:41:48,040
Speaker 1: threat to the octopus, then they obviously would have found

1728
01:41:48,080 --> 01:41:50,519
Speaker 1: his notes and gotten rid of them. They didn't do that.

1729
01:41:50,720 --> 01:41:53,240
Speaker 1: They didn't bother. I mean, here they go, this guy

1730
01:41:53,320 --> 01:41:55,280
Speaker 1: is such a danger to them that the engineer this

1731
01:41:55,439 --> 01:41:58,960
Speaker 1: perfect murder that looks so much like a suicide, and

1732
01:41:59,040 --> 01:42:00,960
Speaker 1: they don't bother to go find all of his notes

1733
01:42:01,040 --> 01:42:04,439
Speaker 1: and information and destroy that, destroyed that stuff. Yeah, yeah,

1734
01:42:04,560 --> 01:42:08,160
Speaker 1: they didn't. Yeah, that's a good point. So I think

1735
01:42:08,720 --> 01:42:13,320
Speaker 1: I think it was a suicide. Yeah, it's sad that suicide. No, No,

1736
01:42:13,400 --> 01:42:17,439
Speaker 1: I'm not either sadly I doing all of the research

1737
01:42:17,520 --> 01:42:21,080
Speaker 1: that I did. It's I kind of feel like maybe

1738
01:42:21,160 --> 01:42:23,760
Speaker 1: he went down a track that he shouldn't have gone

1739
01:42:23,800 --> 01:42:26,880
Speaker 1: trapped down, and that was not a good move for

1740
01:42:27,200 --> 01:42:29,800
Speaker 1: him personally, I guess, not from any outside And the

1741
01:42:29,960 --> 01:42:33,479
Speaker 1: other thing that we're not necessarily discussing is that the

1742
01:42:33,720 --> 01:42:39,559
Speaker 1: possibility that he killed himself because someone from an organization said, hey,

1743
01:42:40,960 --> 01:42:43,680
Speaker 1: we know what you're doing, stopped doing that, or you know,

1744
01:42:43,800 --> 01:42:46,320
Speaker 1: threatened or whatever. And again, like, it's not I wouldn't

1745
01:42:46,320 --> 01:42:48,920
Speaker 1: say that that's a reasonable assumption to you know, and

1746
01:42:49,200 --> 01:42:52,560
Speaker 1: I will I had the very same thought process I

1747
01:42:52,720 --> 01:42:59,880
Speaker 1: had that he committed suicide under duress, somebody prompted him

1748
01:43:00,040 --> 01:43:02,240
Speaker 1: to do it, we're going to murder your family. But

1749
01:43:02,360 --> 01:43:06,519
Speaker 1: I got to be honest with you. If if somebody said, Steve,

1750
01:43:07,200 --> 01:43:11,080
Speaker 1: you have to commit suicide or we're going to kill

1751
01:43:11,479 --> 01:43:14,479
Speaker 1: everyone you know, I would probably do it. But you

1752
01:43:14,560 --> 01:43:17,600
Speaker 1: know what else I would do. I would get blitzed

1753
01:43:18,000 --> 01:43:22,479
Speaker 1: in the process. I would be so loaded. Yeah, well

1754
01:43:22,560 --> 01:43:24,600
Speaker 1: I don't know, so that I wouldn't to try and

1755
01:43:24,960 --> 01:43:27,840
Speaker 1: make sure I don't feel anything anything. He was not

1756
01:43:28,080 --> 01:43:30,840
Speaker 1: in that position at all in terms of things that

1757
01:43:31,000 --> 01:43:34,040
Speaker 1: he'd ingested. I guess I wasn't assuming the like, Steve,

1758
01:43:34,120 --> 01:43:36,360
Speaker 1: you have to kill yourself, or I'd be like, hey, Steve,

1759
01:43:36,439 --> 01:43:38,120
Speaker 1: we know what you're doing and if you keep doing it,

1760
01:43:38,479 --> 01:43:41,759
Speaker 1: you were going to kill your family. So like printer

1761
01:43:41,840 --> 01:43:44,720
Speaker 1: attraction for everything you've ever do you know that you

1762
01:43:44,800 --> 01:43:48,080
Speaker 1: would be in that kind of moral quandary of well

1763
01:43:48,160 --> 01:43:50,479
Speaker 1: do I I don't know. I know where you're going.

1764
01:43:50,680 --> 01:43:54,000
Speaker 1: So but the thing about it is is that if

1765
01:43:54,080 --> 01:43:55,880
Speaker 1: you're if you're in that sort of situation, if I

1766
01:43:56,040 --> 01:43:58,720
Speaker 1: was anyway, I would be writing a letter or two

1767
01:43:59,240 --> 01:44:01,519
Speaker 1: to my family last and saying, hey, don't believe my

1768
01:44:01,600 --> 01:44:04,800
Speaker 1: suicide note. But didn't he say that? Didn't he say?

1769
01:44:04,880 --> 01:44:08,720
Speaker 1: At one point if something happens to me, don't buy it.

1770
01:44:08,840 --> 01:44:11,240
Speaker 1: Don't believe that he did say that to his brother.

1771
01:44:11,320 --> 01:44:15,120
Speaker 1: He didn't say that, but I'm just saying, but I

1772
01:44:15,200 --> 01:44:17,320
Speaker 1: mean he might have. He might have. Actually, he might

1773
01:44:17,360 --> 01:44:21,360
Speaker 1: have been just joking around. Well, I mean, whether the guys.

1774
01:44:21,400 --> 01:44:26,000
Speaker 1: There's a million ways, and we could keep hashing out

1775
01:44:26,200 --> 01:44:31,000
Speaker 1: a bazillion little what ifs, but I think instead I

1776
01:44:31,080 --> 01:44:34,240
Speaker 1: need to do we wrap it up now. It's gone

1777
01:44:34,280 --> 01:44:36,320
Speaker 1: on for too long. I think I think that Danny

1778
01:44:36,360 --> 01:44:41,800
Speaker 1: committed suicide. Final verdict. Okay, so you are more than

1779
01:44:41,880 --> 01:44:45,560
Speaker 1: welcome to tell us what your theory is, both in

1780
01:44:45,640 --> 01:44:49,320
Speaker 1: relation to the death of Danny Castelero u oh, and

1781
01:44:49,720 --> 01:44:51,880
Speaker 1: you know whether danger Man is telling the truth and

1782
01:44:52,160 --> 01:44:55,720
Speaker 1: what the heck even if the octopus really exists, you

1783
01:44:55,840 --> 01:44:57,920
Speaker 1: can do that you are the octopus, give us a call.

1784
01:44:58,000 --> 01:44:59,920
Speaker 1: If you are the octopus, please stay away from here.

1785
01:44:59,920 --> 01:45:05,280
Speaker 1: He email address email addresses Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail

1786
01:45:05,360 --> 01:45:08,080
Speaker 1: dot com. I tell you that because well, I'm afraid

1787
01:45:08,160 --> 01:45:09,560
Speaker 1: that you're going to hurt us. But they already know

1788
01:45:09,600 --> 01:45:11,839
Speaker 1: our email address, so we're kind of you know everything

1789
01:45:11,880 --> 01:45:16,360
Speaker 1: about us. They're outside the door right now. We have

1790
01:45:16,600 --> 01:45:20,120
Speaker 1: this episode and all episodes on our website, along with

1791
01:45:20,360 --> 01:45:23,360
Speaker 1: links to some of our research, which that website is

1792
01:45:23,520 --> 01:45:27,400
Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways podcast dot com. We're on social media, so

1793
01:45:27,520 --> 01:45:32,360
Speaker 1: we're on Twitter at Thinking Sideways or Thinking Sideways without

1794
01:45:32,439 --> 01:45:36,320
Speaker 1: the g uh. And we're also on Facebook so you

1795
01:45:36,439 --> 01:45:39,719
Speaker 1: can find us. You can like us and join the group. Again,

1796
01:45:39,840 --> 01:45:42,320
Speaker 1: don't be sending us friends requests. We want you to

1797
01:45:42,360 --> 01:45:43,760
Speaker 1: go to the group because that's where all the good

1798
01:45:43,760 --> 01:45:47,840
Speaker 1: stuff happens, as well as the regular page we are.

1799
01:45:48,960 --> 01:45:52,080
Speaker 1: We're on ron iTunes. I was gonna I'm trying figureut

1800
01:45:52,080 --> 01:45:55,200
Speaker 1: where Elsten ron iTunes, so you can listen to us

1801
01:45:55,240 --> 01:45:58,080
Speaker 1: on iTunes. You can download us on iTunes. If you do,

1802
01:45:58,400 --> 01:46:00,960
Speaker 1: please take the time to leave a moment and a rating.

1803
01:46:01,240 --> 01:46:03,360
Speaker 1: I checked us out the other day and we just

1804
01:46:03,600 --> 01:46:07,479
Speaker 1: keep moving up into the main banks of the ratings,

1805
01:46:07,560 --> 01:46:09,400
Speaker 1: so it is awesome to see us get that high

1806
01:46:09,479 --> 01:46:13,000
Speaker 1: up there. What we're doing good, okay good. By the

1807
01:46:13,080 --> 01:46:15,439
Speaker 1: time this episode comes out, what I've seen today will

1808
01:46:15,439 --> 01:46:19,200
Speaker 1: be completely different. So we're we're way up there in there.

1809
01:46:19,960 --> 01:46:22,559
Speaker 1: We are also going to be on just about every

1810
01:46:22,600 --> 01:46:26,240
Speaker 1: streaming service at this point, so whatever service should prefer

1811
01:46:26,320 --> 01:46:28,679
Speaker 1: to use your welcome to look for us. You're probably

1812
01:46:28,680 --> 01:46:32,760
Speaker 1: gonna find the feed in there. We have the subreddit,

1813
01:46:33,120 --> 01:46:37,040
Speaker 1: which Devin again, what is this? Okay, thank you? I

1814
01:46:37,120 --> 01:46:40,200
Speaker 1: never can I don't know. I still understand. Two weeks later,

1815
01:46:40,200 --> 01:46:42,639
Speaker 1: I still get it as going on there these days

1816
01:46:42,960 --> 01:46:46,280
Speaker 1: just discussions and stuff. Yeah, so there's discussions of episodes

1817
01:46:46,320 --> 01:46:48,599
Speaker 1: and other things. But that is in Reddit. If you're

1818
01:46:48,600 --> 01:46:50,680
Speaker 1: a Reddit union user or you would like to be

1819
01:46:50,760 --> 01:46:53,880
Speaker 1: a Reddit user, that's a good place to go. We

1820
01:46:54,400 --> 01:46:57,800
Speaker 1: uh we are also on Patreon. So if you and

1821
01:46:58,160 --> 01:47:00,439
Speaker 1: you like what we do with the podcast asked and

1822
01:47:00,600 --> 01:47:04,320
Speaker 1: you enjoy it and you would like to contribute, you're

1823
01:47:04,439 --> 01:47:07,479
Speaker 1: welcome to do that. Patrian allows you to contribute on

1824
01:47:07,600 --> 01:47:11,040
Speaker 1: a buy episode basis. However much is comfortable for you.

1825
01:47:11,560 --> 01:47:14,560
Speaker 1: It is completely voluntary and you do not have to

1826
01:47:14,720 --> 01:47:16,600
Speaker 1: do it if you are not in a position to

1827
01:47:16,680 --> 01:47:18,680
Speaker 1: do it. I know a lot of folks as we've

1828
01:47:18,720 --> 01:47:22,120
Speaker 1: been talking about this, have been hitting the PayPal button.

1829
01:47:22,479 --> 01:47:24,320
Speaker 1: You can donate whatever you want is at one time.

1830
01:47:25,200 --> 01:47:27,720
Speaker 1: All of it is awesome. We appreciate it all. Thank you,

1831
01:47:27,880 --> 01:47:30,880
Speaker 1: very appreciate people. People. There are people who have pledged

1832
01:47:31,000 --> 01:47:35,320
Speaker 1: in U per episode. We love you, guys Afraid the expenses,

1833
01:47:35,439 --> 01:47:38,680
Speaker 1: it really does. Yeah, well that is all that we've

1834
01:47:38,760 --> 01:47:42,120
Speaker 1: got for housekeeping, and that is all that we have

1835
01:47:42,600 --> 01:47:46,639
Speaker 1: on Danny Cassilero. And there's there's more out there. There's

1836
01:47:46,720 --> 01:47:48,479
Speaker 1: much to be said, but I don't think there's any point.

1837
01:47:48,800 --> 01:47:51,040
Speaker 1: Well there's no there's point, but there's a lot to

1838
01:47:51,120 --> 01:47:52,840
Speaker 1: be said. But I think that we're going to try

1839
01:47:52,840 --> 01:47:54,680
Speaker 1: and keep this as concise as we can, and we're

1840
01:47:54,680 --> 01:47:57,519
Speaker 1: gonna go ahead and wrap this up. So thank you

1841
01:47:57,600 --> 01:48:00,400
Speaker 1: everybody for going through what turned out to be much

1842
01:48:00,479 --> 01:48:03,320
Speaker 1: longer of an episode than I expected, and we will

1843
01:48:03,360 --> 01:48:20,760
Speaker 1: talk to you next week. Hale hydra, hal hydra, did

1844
01:48:20,800 --> 01:48:24,200
Speaker 1: you say hale hydra? Hale hydra. Okay,