WEBVTT - Brené Brown and Maya Talk “Heated Rivalry,” Mental Spirals, and Moral Beauty 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:32.716 Pushkin Hay Slite Changers. When I was thinking about a 0:00:32.796 --> 0:00:35.756 launch event for my new book, The Other Side of Change, 0:00:36.156 --> 0:00:38.876 the person I most wanted to be in conversation with 0:00:39.116 --> 0:00:43.836 was social scientist Brenee Brown. Brene's research has shaped how 0:00:43.876 --> 0:00:48.276 millions of us think about concepts like shame, vulnerability, and resilience, 0:00:48.796 --> 0:00:51.996 and her expertise felt so relevant to the themes of 0:00:52.036 --> 0:00:55.356 the Other Side of Change, and so when I asked 0:00:55.356 --> 0:00:58.716 Renee and she said yes, I was of course elated. 0:00:59.316 --> 0:01:02.636 She hosted a virtual conversation to an audience of early 0:01:02.676 --> 0:01:05.636 readers of the book on the night before it was published. 0:01:06.196 --> 0:01:08.916 We covered so much ground and it truly felt like 0:01:08.956 --> 0:01:12.236 the conversation could go on for hours. It was a 0:01:12.236 --> 0:01:14.556 peak memory for me, and so I wanted to share 0:01:14.596 --> 0:01:17.036 it with all of you in the slight Change community. 0:01:17.396 --> 0:01:24.556 I hope you enjoy. Okay, now over to Brenee. Hey friend, Hey, Renee, 0:01:24.556 --> 0:01:25.076 how you doing. 0:01:25.756 --> 0:01:29.956 I have read, I have learned. I have to tell 0:01:29.996 --> 0:01:34.676 you that I will. Oh, my name's on the front. 0:01:34.716 --> 0:01:37.636 Let's read what I say about the Other Side of Change. 0:01:37.796 --> 0:01:41.916 I say a rare combination of beautiful storytelling, cognitive science, 0:01:41.956 --> 0:01:46.476 and wholehearted wisdom. I am going to confirm this is true. 0:01:46.596 --> 0:01:47.996 I freaking love this book. 0:01:48.396 --> 0:01:50.476 Thank you so much. That means so much to me. 0:01:50.836 --> 0:01:52.876 Oh my gosh, I love it. 0:01:52.996 --> 0:01:56.836 And let me just tell you that I don't know 0:01:56.876 --> 0:02:00.036 how you thought of this appendix where you go through 0:02:00.276 --> 0:02:03.556 like every chapter, what the science says, what you can do. 0:02:03.996 --> 0:02:05.956 I mean, I'm going to make a bot out of this, 0:02:06.476 --> 0:02:08.956 and I'm going to name it my therapist name, and 0:02:09.156 --> 0:02:11.116 then I'm just going to live in the appendix. Okay, 0:02:11.396 --> 0:02:14.316 sorry for everybody that's joined. I'd like to use this 0:02:14.356 --> 0:02:18.716 as my personal therapy session because it's that good. I'm 0:02:18.716 --> 0:02:20.996 going to read an introduction, which is kind of weird 0:02:21.036 --> 0:02:26.276 because Mysen Kursker and we all know her author, podcast creator, host, 0:02:26.636 --> 0:02:32.076 cognitive scientist. Her podcast A Slight Change of Plans one 0:02:32.076 --> 0:02:35.516 of my favorites, named best show of the Year by Apple, 0:02:35.756 --> 0:02:40.596 deservedly like the appendix. She served as a Senior policy 0:02:40.636 --> 0:02:43.116 advisor in the Obama White House, where she founded and 0:02:43.196 --> 0:02:46.196 chaired the Social and Behavioral Sciences Team. She was also 0:02:46.236 --> 0:02:49.276 appointed as the first Behavioral Science Advisor to the un 0:02:49.716 --> 0:02:52.516 She has a BA from Yale, a PhD from Oxford 0:02:52.596 --> 0:02:55.796 as a Rhodes Scholar and completed a post doctoral fellowship 0:02:55.796 --> 0:03:00.956 in cognitive neuroscience at Stanford. Let me just skip to 0:03:00.956 --> 0:03:02.916 the part where she's a total badass but then writes 0:03:02.916 --> 0:03:06.076 in a way that we can actually understand, feel not alone, 0:03:06.276 --> 0:03:08.916 and make great changes. So you want to start with 0:03:08.916 --> 0:03:13.276 a rapid fire, I do. Okay, what have you binged 0:03:13.316 --> 0:03:14.556 lightly that you loved? 0:03:15.076 --> 0:03:22.156 Oh? Heated rivalry. My husband was like, my wife has 0:03:22.196 --> 0:03:24.676 departed the building because I just was watching the show 0:03:24.716 --> 0:03:27.196 obsessively all of last week. I'm like, you know, there 0:03:27.276 --> 0:03:28.956 is a book launched, a prep form, but I'm like, 0:03:29.276 --> 0:03:31.676 there are more important matters here. Okay, I need to 0:03:31.676 --> 0:03:32.676 know how this ends. 0:03:33.036 --> 0:03:35.876 I mean, life made other plans. 0:03:36.076 --> 0:03:38.156 Yeah, very important plan for Shane. 0:03:38.196 --> 0:03:42.556 And yeah, I'm obsessed. I've seen it. 0:03:42.996 --> 0:03:47.196 You know that the real life Ilia is from Texas. 0:03:47.556 --> 0:03:51.796 Yessian accent is Yes, I was so impressed. I really 0:03:51.836 --> 0:03:52.876 thought the dude was Russian. 0:03:53.356 --> 0:03:55.156 So, oh my god, it's so good. It's such I 0:03:55.196 --> 0:03:56.716 love it. It's a great, a great love story. So 0:03:56.716 --> 0:04:01.796 I've seen it twice. I'm with you, Okay, favorite meal. 0:04:02.876 --> 0:04:06.316 I love Mexican food, so Enchilada's. 0:04:06.156 --> 0:04:07.156 Cheese Andilada's chicken. 0:04:07.196 --> 0:04:08.996 Enchiladasila's vegetarian. 0:04:09.356 --> 0:04:11.196 Oh vegetarian, okay, cheese inchiladas. 0:04:11.196 --> 0:04:12.436 I'm sorry, what about you? 0:04:15.276 --> 0:04:20.276 I'm gonna get I'm not vegetarian. I don't no heat 0:04:20.276 --> 0:04:22.676 in the chat, but I'm gonna probably have a beefihita. 0:04:22.756 --> 0:04:24.956 But I will join you for a cheese inchilada as well. 0:04:25.236 --> 0:04:25.516 Nice. 0:04:25.556 --> 0:04:27.356 You can have that mine, thank you. 0:04:28.076 --> 0:04:30.796 I'll take it and some welcome oley and chips of course, 0:04:31.716 --> 0:04:35.036 and icy. 0:04:35.436 --> 0:04:37.756 Ideal superpower. 0:04:38.836 --> 0:04:44.596 Sleeping on airplanes. That's how you know you turned forty. 0:04:44.796 --> 0:04:46.956 I turned forty to Zever, it used to be like 0:04:47.156 --> 0:04:49.996 to fly to read other people's minds, and now I'm like, 0:04:50.316 --> 0:04:52.996 I would like to have high quality sleep when I travel. 0:04:53.876 --> 0:04:56.756 Official, if we're gonna, if we're gonna go with that, 0:04:56.836 --> 0:05:00.436 I'll go for risk free hrt oh nice. 0:05:00.716 --> 0:05:03.276 Okay, yeah, that is what everyone's talking about these days. Okay, 0:05:03.276 --> 0:05:07.236 I'm that too, Yeah, yeah, okay. One song that would 0:05:07.236 --> 0:05:09.676 have to be on the playlist of your life. Oh 0:05:09.756 --> 0:05:12.956 my gosh. The Alex weren Ordinary song just took my 0:05:12.996 --> 0:05:13.556 breath away. 0:05:14.116 --> 0:05:16.116 That's how I can give you goosebumps a little bit. 0:05:16.396 --> 0:05:20.276 He's like twenty early nighties, I know, and he's the 0:05:20.356 --> 0:05:24.236 oldest soul. So I'm at my brother's apartment. I was 0:05:24.276 --> 0:05:26.276 just dancing to that song with my nephew. So it 0:05:26.316 --> 0:05:30.476 really transcends generations because he's eight and he's like, oh, Maya, 0:05:30.516 --> 0:05:32.716 I love that song. Maya. You and I have such 0:05:32.796 --> 0:05:35.476 similar music taste. And I was like, that's the coolest 0:05:35.476 --> 0:05:37.316 anyone's ever thought. I was in that age group, So 0:05:37.356 --> 0:05:37.916 this is great. 0:05:38.276 --> 0:05:40.556 He he wants to be cool like you. I love this. 0:05:41.596 --> 0:05:44.556 Okay, we've got to get into the book because I 0:05:46.636 --> 0:05:47.956 have a lot of questions, and then we're going to 0:05:47.956 --> 0:05:51.356 get some audience questions, which is really exciting. So let's 0:05:51.436 --> 0:05:53.636 talk about from the I feel like I know you, 0:05:53.676 --> 0:05:55.476 but I want everybody to know you like I know you. 0:05:55.516 --> 0:05:57.356 So I'm going to back it way up and say, 0:05:57.996 --> 0:06:03.156 tell me about tell all of us about what inspired 0:06:03.236 --> 0:06:04.556 you to write the book. 0:06:06.196 --> 0:06:08.156 So I should start off by saying I never planned 0:06:08.156 --> 0:06:10.156 to write a book. I was happy to go to 0:06:10.236 --> 0:06:12.836 my grave not having written a book. And when I 0:06:12.876 --> 0:06:15.516 started a slight change of plans, I really doubled down 0:06:15.516 --> 0:06:17.356 on this. I was like, the podcast is giving you 0:06:17.396 --> 0:06:20.636 what I need, and so no book, no book, no book. 0:06:21.276 --> 0:06:24.876 And then something happened where I think I had done 0:06:24.876 --> 0:06:28.196 maybe fifty or sixty episodes of a Slight Change, and 0:06:28.676 --> 0:06:33.116 I started to notice these very interesting connections across stories, 0:06:33.636 --> 0:06:36.676 and I wasn't expecting to find them. But there was 0:06:36.716 --> 0:06:38.476 one story in particular I talk about in the book 0:06:38.516 --> 0:06:42.276 where I just interviewed a young thirty something who had 0:06:42.276 --> 0:06:45.836 been diagnosed with stage four cancer, and I'd also interviewed 0:06:45.836 --> 0:06:48.156 a woman who found out that her late husband had 0:06:48.236 --> 0:06:51.836 cheated on her for decades, and they were both reckoning 0:06:52.116 --> 0:06:56.036 with a similar feeling of betrayal. And I was like, oh, wow, 0:06:56.916 --> 0:07:00.236 there is something very universal about the way that we're 0:07:00.276 --> 0:07:04.756 navigating these changes in ways that transcend the exact topic, 0:07:04.916 --> 0:07:08.036 the exact issue. Andre and I just felt like in 0:07:08.076 --> 0:07:12.196 our society, when we're going through hard stuff, people direct 0:07:12.316 --> 0:07:15.556 us towards the area of interest. So I'm like, you know, 0:07:15.876 --> 0:07:18.156 if I'm saying I'm having a tough time at work, Oh, 0:07:18.196 --> 0:07:20.876 I have a friend who you know recently been laid off, 0:07:20.916 --> 0:07:22.796 you should talk to them. I'm going through divorce. Oh, 0:07:22.836 --> 0:07:25.596 actually my friend went through divorce. Oh I've lost a 0:07:25.596 --> 0:07:27.556 loved one. Go to the bereef part of the bookstore 0:07:27.876 --> 0:07:30.036 that's sort of the generic advice, which is you need 0:07:30.076 --> 0:07:32.876 to find people whose stories look like yours. And I 0:07:32.956 --> 0:07:35.716 was having these insights from collecting the wisdom of my 0:07:35.796 --> 0:07:40.676 guests that no, actually we share a similar psychology. You 0:07:40.796 --> 0:07:43.356 don't need to find people whose stories look like yours. 0:07:43.636 --> 0:07:46.476 There are lessons that will emerge irrespective of what you're 0:07:46.516 --> 0:07:49.676 going through, that are relevant for all of us. And 0:07:49.756 --> 0:07:52.756 so I felt like a book was the only medium 0:07:52.876 --> 0:07:57.036 through which I could connect and combine new stories that 0:07:57.076 --> 0:07:59.316 people hadn't heard on the podcast, which is primarily what 0:07:59.476 --> 0:08:02.916 the other side of changes, and then illuminate those universal 0:08:02.996 --> 0:08:05.836 lessons that sat within the stories. And so this was 0:08:05.876 --> 0:08:08.396 truly a passion project because again, like didn't want to 0:08:08.396 --> 0:08:10.436 write a book, but felt compelled to write a book, 0:08:10.476 --> 0:08:12.356 which is sort of the best way to go about 0:08:12.476 --> 0:08:15.076 this process because it is not for the faint hearted, 0:08:16.076 --> 0:08:17.956 as I learned, No, And. 0:08:17.876 --> 0:08:20.916 I think I just have to say, on behalf of 0:08:20.956 --> 0:08:23.516 everyone that's here, I'm grateful that you did that, because 0:08:23.636 --> 0:08:27.156 one of the things I love about your podcast is 0:08:28.716 --> 0:08:36.316 sometimes what I'm in a hard place, especially I mean, yeah, 0:08:36.396 --> 0:08:37.476 I mean I was going to say I was going 0:08:37.516 --> 0:08:39.276 to talk about a hard place that I'm struggling with 0:08:39.356 --> 0:08:41.796 right now because it's I've got a daughter getting married 0:08:41.836 --> 0:08:44.996 and a mom that died, you know, earlier than I thought, 0:08:45.036 --> 0:08:46.836 and I'm wrestling with the fact that she's not going 0:08:46.836 --> 0:08:49.676 to be at the wedding. But none of the stories 0:08:50.036 --> 0:08:53.476 that helped me understand myself in the book were about 0:08:53.556 --> 0:08:55.996 grief and death. They were about other types of losses 0:08:55.996 --> 0:08:59.436 and other kinds of changes of plans. So I'm going 0:08:59.476 --> 0:09:01.796 to say you're a really good qualitative researcher, which might 0:09:01.876 --> 0:09:03.076 hurt your heart, but that. 0:09:03.236 --> 0:09:07.716 Doesn't It really doesn't. I mean, as an academic, to 0:09:07.756 --> 0:09:10.876 your point, people are like quality stuff, narrative storytelling, but 0:09:12.276 --> 0:09:15.196 I have been humbled. I mean, the power of stories 0:09:15.276 --> 0:09:18.276 is immense, and I will I will go to that 0:09:19.236 --> 0:09:22.556 for qualitative research and storytelling. I'm a full on convert. 0:09:23.036 --> 0:09:26.236 Okay, y'all, y'all are hearing it here, first team, heated 0:09:26.316 --> 0:09:30.716 rivalry team, qualitative research. I always used to say that 0:09:31.316 --> 0:09:33.916 stories are just data with the soul, like it's just 0:09:33.996 --> 0:09:38.236 you know, they're really important data. Let's go to your 0:09:38.356 --> 0:09:44.396 childhood dream of being a violinist, share that story with 0:09:44.476 --> 0:09:50.756 everyone and how that changed how you thought about change, 0:09:51.836 --> 0:09:54.196 And I would love for you to speak to something 0:09:54.516 --> 0:09:57.876 that I have learned from you, and I look for 0:09:57.996 --> 0:10:01.676 it immediately in my own life when I'm struggling, and 0:10:01.716 --> 0:10:07.676 I help my kids with it too. How it impacted 0:10:07.716 --> 0:10:09.116 the way you thought of your idea? 0:10:10.276 --> 0:10:15.236 Long story short, My childhood was fully centered around the violin. 0:10:15.716 --> 0:10:18.156 When I was six, my mom went up to our 0:10:18.196 --> 0:10:20.836 attic and brought down my grandmother's violin that she had 0:10:20.876 --> 0:10:23.676 played as a little girl in Burma and India. And 0:10:23.796 --> 0:10:26.036 I was so close to my grandmother. I mean when 0:10:26.036 --> 0:10:28.516 I would go to India in the summers, we were inseparable. 0:10:28.836 --> 0:10:30.356 I would stand next to her in the kitchen when 0:10:30.356 --> 0:10:32.276 she was cooking food. I would sit next to her 0:10:32.276 --> 0:10:35.396 in prayer physician when she like meditated and did prayers 0:10:35.436 --> 0:10:38.156 to the Hindu gods for hours. I would sleep next 0:10:38.156 --> 0:10:40.916 to her on the linoleum floor with clothes, our pillows. 0:10:40.996 --> 0:10:44.676 I just felt a natural gravitation towards her. And so 0:10:45.196 --> 0:10:48.316 when my mom, I'm the youngest of four kids, offered 0:10:48.316 --> 0:10:50.636 me the chance to play the violin, I was like, yes, 0:10:50.796 --> 0:10:53.036 that's what our grandmother did. You know. We were separated 0:10:53.036 --> 0:10:55.156 by thousands of miles, so I wanted anything to feel 0:10:55.196 --> 0:10:58.356 close to her, and it was like a magnet because 0:10:58.396 --> 0:11:00.116 my parents had to tell me to do lots of stuff, 0:11:00.116 --> 0:11:02.396 but for some reason, they never had to tell me 0:11:02.436 --> 0:11:04.636 to practice, which was kind of astonishing for them, like 0:11:04.676 --> 0:11:07.876 what six year old wants to practice the violin? Right? 0:11:08.396 --> 0:11:10.276 But I really did and I didn't have to be 0:11:10.316 --> 0:11:14.516 pressured at all, and so I start to develop big dreams. 0:11:14.596 --> 0:11:18.236 I get accepted at Juilliard, the world renowned violinist. It 0:11:18.316 --> 0:11:21.156 saw Pearlman invites me to be his private student. I mean, 0:11:21.156 --> 0:11:23.596 it feels like it was a different lifetime ago, Brene. 0:11:23.596 --> 0:11:27.116 But I think like when Pearlman takes me out as 0:11:27.156 --> 0:11:30.156 a student that I might have the opportunity to go pro. 0:11:30.316 --> 0:11:32.556 It was sort of the vote of confidence that I 0:11:32.636 --> 0:11:35.276 needed to get outside of my imposter syndrome and to 0:11:35.396 --> 0:11:38.796 really believe I had it. And so everything was going 0:11:38.836 --> 0:11:43.236 according to plan until my slight change of plans, acute 0:11:43.276 --> 0:11:45.836 hand injury ended my dreams in a moment. I was 0:11:45.876 --> 0:11:48.596 at summer camp. I was fifteen years old. I was 0:11:49.156 --> 0:11:53.916 also very very stubborn, very much in denial, kept playing 0:11:53.956 --> 0:11:58.756 through pain, had surgeries, alternative treatments, kept performing. I just 0:11:59.076 --> 0:12:01.836 I couldn't let the violin go, and I think I've 0:12:01.876 --> 0:12:04.436 only realized in recent years that the reason for that 0:12:04.796 --> 0:12:09.756 is my entire sense of worth and well being identity 0:12:10.356 --> 0:12:14.956 was entangled with the instrument, and so in losing the violin, 0:12:15.116 --> 0:12:17.636 I wouldn't just be losing an instrument. I would be 0:12:17.676 --> 0:12:21.876 losing myself. And that just felt way too threatening. Not 0:12:21.916 --> 0:12:25.396 only did I feel such deep connection to it, but 0:12:25.436 --> 0:12:28.396 it was also filling these voids I felt in my life. 0:12:28.436 --> 0:12:31.036 So I was teased and bullied a lot as a kid. 0:12:31.156 --> 0:12:32.996 I was one of a few brown kids in a 0:12:32.996 --> 0:12:36.876 predominantly white school. The girls in my neighborhood were so cruel. 0:12:37.276 --> 0:12:39.436 At the lunch table one day, this one girl was like, 0:12:39.516 --> 0:12:41.956 you are so ugly, it's painful for me to look 0:12:41.956 --> 0:12:43.516 at you, and then just got up and left and 0:12:43.556 --> 0:12:46.356 went to another table. By the way. Like a decade 0:12:46.436 --> 0:12:48.756 or two later, she saw my wedding photos and she 0:12:48.876 --> 0:12:52.356 was like stunning, And I'm like, where was that? Yeah, 0:12:52.356 --> 0:12:53.716 when I was in middle school. 0:12:54.316 --> 0:12:57.036 There's two we have in common, folks. I'm going to 0:12:57.156 --> 0:12:58.516 keep it clean, but no. 0:12:58.796 --> 0:13:01.076 Yeah, I digress. This is not relevant to the book. 0:13:01.116 --> 0:13:03.796 I just clearly haven't healed from my childhood with now 0:13:03.836 --> 0:13:07.716 I'm with you, let's go anyway. So I was teased 0:13:07.756 --> 0:13:09.436 a lot, but then when I went to Julia, I 0:13:09.436 --> 0:13:12.876 felt so at home because it was a very international group, 0:13:12.996 --> 0:13:15.476 so they embrace me for my indian ness and like 0:13:15.516 --> 0:13:17.716 it just didn't seem to matter. And So what I 0:13:17.836 --> 0:13:20.996 learned from that experience, and it's taking me a long time, 0:13:21.156 --> 0:13:25.716 is that we so often anchor our self identities to 0:13:25.836 --> 0:13:28.956 what we do, to the roles or labels that we occupy. 0:13:29.156 --> 0:13:32.556 So that could be being a violinist, it could be 0:13:32.556 --> 0:13:34.676 being an athlete, it could be being a mom, head 0:13:34.716 --> 0:13:37.996 of the PTA, whatever it is that tends to be 0:13:38.636 --> 0:13:42.596 how we affiliate, and having those identities can bring our 0:13:42.596 --> 0:13:45.956 lives lots of meaning and purpose and stave off existential angst. 0:13:46.396 --> 0:13:49.476 But the downside is that when life does throw you 0:13:49.516 --> 0:13:51.996 a curveball, it can threaten that thing and that can 0:13:52.036 --> 0:13:55.956 be very destabilizing. And so I have learned that it's 0:13:56.036 --> 0:14:00.916 really helpful to expand our self identity to include not 0:14:01.156 --> 0:14:03.596 just what we do, but why we do that thing. 0:14:04.076 --> 0:14:05.796 So I asked myself, what was it that I loved 0:14:05.836 --> 0:14:09.316 about the violin Emotional connection? That is what I that 0:14:09.436 --> 0:14:11.956 is what makes me light up that's what makes mya tick. 0:14:12.716 --> 0:14:15.156 Just because I lost the violin didn't mean that I 0:14:15.196 --> 0:14:17.116 lost what led me to love it in the first place. 0:14:17.516 --> 0:14:19.716 That part of me was actually still intact. So even 0:14:19.756 --> 0:14:23.076 though I felt I'd lost everything, I actually hadn't, And 0:14:23.476 --> 0:14:26.116 it was just a matter of finding other outlets through 0:14:26.116 --> 0:14:29.476 which to express this very fundamental desire, which was to 0:14:29.476 --> 0:14:32.756 emotionally connect with people. And I have through my book 0:14:32.756 --> 0:14:34.796 the other side of change. I have through my podcast 0:14:34.876 --> 0:14:38.436 a slight change of plans. There are other ways to 0:14:38.476 --> 0:14:41.516 figure out how to express your why, and it'll give 0:14:41.556 --> 0:14:43.836 you a softer landing when you do that, because it 0:14:43.876 --> 0:14:46.356 can serve as a compass. And one thing that was 0:14:46.356 --> 0:14:48.756 so unexpected about the book is the final chapter ended 0:14:48.836 --> 0:14:51.276 up being memoir. It turned out I was going through 0:14:51.276 --> 0:14:53.716 my own unexpected changes as I was writing the book, 0:14:54.196 --> 0:14:56.316 and as I was contending with the fact that my 0:14:56.836 --> 0:14:59.836 hopes of becoming a mom weren't coming true. I actually 0:14:59.876 --> 0:15:02.396 had to ask myself those same set of questions when 0:15:02.436 --> 0:15:06.436 it came to motherhood. What was I craving from parenthood 0:15:06.436 --> 0:15:10.556 and could I find some of those traits and features elsewhere? So, yeah, 0:15:10.556 --> 0:15:12.836 I would encourage everyone who's listening to us right now, 0:15:12.916 --> 0:15:15.676 ask yourself what your why is, because life can't take 0:15:15.716 --> 0:15:17.556 that away from you. You can hold on to that 0:15:17.596 --> 0:15:18.796 in these crisis moments. 0:15:19.156 --> 0:15:21.396 I love the story so much with your grandmother because 0:15:21.396 --> 0:15:25.836 I had a similar relationship with my grandmother. I was 0:15:25.876 --> 0:15:27.996 writing down words when you were telling this story and 0:15:28.036 --> 0:15:30.276 when I was hearing it again. You know, it wasn't 0:15:30.356 --> 0:15:39.396 just identity. It's belonging, yes, history, connection, worth. It's these 0:15:39.436 --> 0:15:45.796 things that are so huge and fundamental to being human 0:15:47.316 --> 0:15:53.436 that we thumbtack to things we can't control. Where those 0:15:53.436 --> 0:15:57.356 things live inside of us, you know, and you thumbtack 0:15:57.436 --> 0:16:02.596 them to an event or an instrument or a role, 0:16:04.356 --> 0:16:07.516 And none of those things, over the course of a lifetime, 0:16:07.636 --> 0:16:10.276 can hold the weight of what we're talking about here, 0:16:10.756 --> 0:16:13.156 Do you know what I mean? Like, yes, they're so 0:16:13.316 --> 0:16:16.716 well said, hold the weight. That's exactly right. I mean, 0:16:17.716 --> 0:16:20.956 I learned this lesson too from Olivia. The first chapter 0:16:21.116 --> 0:16:23.076 turns out she's putting all of her self worth in 0:16:23.076 --> 0:16:25.596 the opinions of others. You and I talked about this, 0:16:25.676 --> 0:16:27.876 and you're on a slight change of plans. We know 0:16:27.956 --> 0:16:30.596 how far that gets you? Yeah, we know how tenuus 0:16:30.596 --> 0:16:31.516 that relationship is. 0:16:31.556 --> 0:16:34.836 Yeah, that is the ultimate thumb sack word. 0:16:34.716 --> 0:16:39.076 Exactly, and she becomes locked in. She is literally unable 0:16:39.116 --> 0:16:41.636 to move any part of her body other than her eyes, 0:16:41.716 --> 0:16:43.716 and she can only blink to communicate with the world. 0:16:44.116 --> 0:16:47.436 Talk about a surrendering to the rawness of who you 0:16:47.476 --> 0:16:49.956 are because you can no longer curate any version of 0:16:49.996 --> 0:16:52.436 yourself for other people that you think is palatable. You're 0:16:52.516 --> 0:16:57.116 literally locked in. And so you're exactly right. You should 0:16:57.156 --> 0:17:01.996 ask yourself how much weight could this thing hold of 0:17:01.996 --> 0:17:04.756 my identity? And is it possible that I can put 0:17:04.796 --> 0:17:07.716 more eggs and more baskets? And is it possible that 0:17:07.756 --> 0:17:10.396 I can diversify the loved? And by the way, it 0:17:10.436 --> 0:17:13.676 can be very uncomfortable to do this. I remember on 0:17:13.756 --> 0:17:16.916 the night of the second miscarriage where my husband Jimmy, 0:17:16.916 --> 0:17:19.716 and I found out that our surrogate and miscarried twins. 0:17:19.796 --> 0:17:23.116 We were just beside ourselves with grief, right, and I 0:17:23.156 --> 0:17:27.156 remember Jimmy came into the bedroom and said, Maya, let's 0:17:27.236 --> 0:17:30.196 just say a few things were grateful for And I 0:17:30.236 --> 0:17:34.836 was like, oh, hell nah, I'm not doing a gratitude 0:17:34.916 --> 0:17:38.836 exercise right now. Jimmy, you take your Instagram nonsense and 0:17:38.876 --> 0:17:41.596 your toxic positivity. You go to the corner and you 0:17:41.676 --> 0:17:44.716 do the gratitude exercise. Okay, I'm lying here, miserable with 0:17:44.756 --> 0:17:46.916 the covers over me. And then he like kind of 0:17:46.956 --> 0:17:48.916 wore me down. I was like, okay, fine, I'll just 0:17:48.916 --> 0:17:50.676 do it. If anything, just like get him off my case. 0:17:50.676 --> 0:17:52.316 And he was like so sweet and earnest. So I 0:17:52.356 --> 0:17:55.556 also felt bad. And what I started to do, actually, 0:17:55.636 --> 0:17:58.316 he's a software engineer. He unknowingly was engaging me in 0:17:58.356 --> 0:18:02.156 a self affirmation exercise. And what is a self affirmation exercise. 0:18:02.196 --> 0:18:05.036 It's when you list all the things that bring your 0:18:05.036 --> 0:18:08.316 life meaning and purpose and value that are not being 0:18:08.356 --> 0:18:11.476 threatened by the chain going through. And what that does 0:18:11.636 --> 0:18:14.836 is it staves off denial. It makes the stakes less high, 0:18:15.276 --> 0:18:17.836 and it makes you more okay with accepting your reality. 0:18:17.956 --> 0:18:20.236 So I start rattling off my list. I'm like, I'm 0:18:20.276 --> 0:18:22.716 so grateful to be an aunt to my sixties's nephews. 0:18:22.716 --> 0:18:24.716 I'm so grateful to host a slight change of plans. 0:18:24.716 --> 0:18:26.396 I have the best listeners in the world. They write 0:18:26.396 --> 0:18:29.076 me these love letters all the time. I'm so grateful 0:18:29.156 --> 0:18:32.916 to gossip about the Bachelor with my fitness trainer, all 0:18:32.916 --> 0:18:35.996 these things. And it was like magic Brene, because I 0:18:36.036 --> 0:18:40.956 felt myself zooming out on my life right sizing what 0:18:41.076 --> 0:18:44.316 I was going through, I realized I developed tunnel vision. 0:18:44.356 --> 0:18:47.556 I was so laser focused on motherhood that nothing else 0:18:47.596 --> 0:18:50.436 that seemed to matter for the last few years. And 0:18:50.556 --> 0:18:52.836 I suddenly saw, Oh my god, my life is so 0:18:52.996 --> 0:18:56.076 full of rich and meaningful identities I'd just forgotten. 0:18:57.036 --> 0:18:59.076 Oh my god, I just love the Jimmy story. It's 0:18:59.116 --> 0:19:00.796 so great that he's still alive. 0:19:01.756 --> 0:19:12.836 I mean, hij hi, Jimmy, we love you, We love you, Jimmy. 0:19:25.276 --> 0:19:37.116 M What is You know what I think of when 0:19:37.276 --> 0:19:38.996 I you know, as a social scientist, you know what 0:19:39.036 --> 0:19:41.756 I think of when I think about what Jimmy did. 0:19:41.876 --> 0:19:44.076 I think about the three p's, Like, this is not 0:19:44.196 --> 0:19:47.756 pervasive in every corner of my life. This is not permanent, 0:19:48.236 --> 0:19:51.796 and this is not personal. What is the what is 0:19:51.836 --> 0:19:54.036 the neuroscience of. 0:19:56.516 --> 0:19:56.596 That? 0:19:58.956 --> 0:20:02.916 Like that swallow us whole hole that we go into 0:20:03.676 --> 0:20:06.876 where we have no periphery at all. 0:20:07.236 --> 0:20:08.436 Yeah, do you know what I mean? 0:20:08.556 --> 0:20:11.396 Where I it seems like what Jimmy had you engage 0:20:11.436 --> 0:20:19.316 in actually created a vision beyond that. 0:20:20.196 --> 0:20:25.036 It's classic focusing illusion from behavioral economics. That's what's happening. 0:20:25.636 --> 0:20:26.676 We've zoomed in our camera. 0:20:27.516 --> 0:20:30.236 That is exactly what's happening, yeah. 0:20:31.916 --> 0:20:34.396 To us. Yeah, so when we focus, when we so 0:20:34.516 --> 0:20:36.556 just literally imagine that everyone on this call, you have 0:20:36.556 --> 0:20:38.996 a camera and you press the zoom buttons so far 0:20:38.996 --> 0:20:41.156 it's literally getting blurry. But that's what our minds do 0:20:41.276 --> 0:20:44.476 in this moment of crisis, right, we literally forget that 0:20:44.556 --> 0:20:49.756 there is any background where so laser focused in. And interestingly, 0:20:49.836 --> 0:20:52.316 what happens when we have this focusing illusion where all 0:20:52.356 --> 0:20:54.876 we see is this little spot And for some person 0:20:54.916 --> 0:20:57.796 this is an illness. For another person's the divorce. For me, 0:20:57.836 --> 0:21:02.356 it was the miscarriage. You will assign it massive significance, 0:21:02.716 --> 0:21:04.556 the exclusion of everything else in your life that could 0:21:04.596 --> 0:21:06.956 have meeting. And then something we were talking about before 0:21:06.996 --> 0:21:10.236 this call. It's like the starter kit for roomen. That 0:21:10.396 --> 0:21:14.196 is where rumination begins. You've zoomed in so closely to 0:21:14.236 --> 0:21:17.196 the problem and you just start going over it and 0:21:17.236 --> 0:21:19.036 over it and over it. We both talked about this 0:21:19.036 --> 0:21:21.796 in Advanced Guys. We both have PhDs in rumination. Yeah, 0:21:21.876 --> 0:21:23.836 I devote a whole chapter to it in the book. 0:21:23.916 --> 0:21:27.396 Yeah, and I've devoted like thirty years to it personally, 0:21:28.316 --> 0:21:31.476 Like I have every tag on here is like I 0:21:31.476 --> 0:21:36.956 have a rumination question. Wait, define rumination for us. Talk 0:21:36.996 --> 0:21:39.196 about why it's so hard on us, I mean, and 0:21:39.276 --> 0:21:42.556 also the new research are not just emotionally hard, but 0:21:42.636 --> 0:21:46.276 physically hard in our bodies, and then talk to us 0:21:46.316 --> 0:21:49.636 about the relationship between all in rumination. 0:21:50.516 --> 0:21:56.156 Yes, So rumination happens often in the aftermath of change 0:21:56.276 --> 0:22:01.316 because in the face of so much uncertainty, which we 0:22:01.396 --> 0:22:04.036 know our brains are not wired to enjoy. My favorite 0:22:04.076 --> 0:22:06.956 study shows that we're more stressed when we're told we 0:22:07.036 --> 0:22:09.476 have a fifty percent chance of getting an electric shock 0:22:09.836 --> 0:22:12.316 than when we're told we have a one hundred percent chance. 0:22:12.756 --> 0:22:14.836 So we'd rather be sure bad things going to happen 0:22:14.876 --> 0:22:17.076 than to have to grapple with any ambiguity. I resonate 0:22:17.076 --> 0:22:19.436