1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:32,716 Speaker 1: Pushkin Hay Slite Changers. When I was thinking about a 2 00:00:32,796 --> 00:00:35,756 Speaker 1: launch event for my new book, The Other Side of Change, 3 00:00:36,156 --> 00:00:38,876 Speaker 1: the person I most wanted to be in conversation with 4 00:00:39,116 --> 00:00:43,836 Speaker 1: was social scientist Brenee Brown. Brene's research has shaped how 5 00:00:43,876 --> 00:00:48,276 Speaker 1: millions of us think about concepts like shame, vulnerability, and resilience, 6 00:00:48,796 --> 00:00:51,996 Speaker 1: and her expertise felt so relevant to the themes of 7 00:00:52,036 --> 00:00:55,356 Speaker 1: the Other Side of Change, and so when I asked 8 00:00:55,356 --> 00:00:58,716 Speaker 1: Renee and she said yes, I was of course elated. 9 00:00:59,316 --> 00:01:02,636 Speaker 1: She hosted a virtual conversation to an audience of early 10 00:01:02,676 --> 00:01:05,636 Speaker 1: readers of the book on the night before it was published. 11 00:01:06,196 --> 00:01:08,916 Speaker 1: We covered so much ground and it truly felt like 12 00:01:08,956 --> 00:01:12,236 Speaker 1: the conversation could go on for hours. It was a 13 00:01:12,236 --> 00:01:14,556 Speaker 1: peak memory for me, and so I wanted to share 14 00:01:14,596 --> 00:01:17,036 Speaker 1: it with all of you in the slight Change community. 15 00:01:17,396 --> 00:01:24,556 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy. Okay, now over to Brenee. Hey friend, Hey, Renee, 16 00:01:24,556 --> 00:01:25,076 Speaker 1: how you doing. 17 00:01:25,756 --> 00:01:29,956 Speaker 2: I have read, I have learned. I have to tell 18 00:01:29,996 --> 00:01:34,676 Speaker 2: you that I will. Oh, my name's on the front. 19 00:01:34,716 --> 00:01:37,636 Speaker 2: Let's read what I say about the Other Side of Change. 20 00:01:37,796 --> 00:01:41,916 Speaker 2: I say a rare combination of beautiful storytelling, cognitive science, 21 00:01:41,956 --> 00:01:46,476 Speaker 2: and wholehearted wisdom. I am going to confirm this is true. 22 00:01:46,596 --> 00:01:47,996 Speaker 2: I freaking love this book. 23 00:01:48,396 --> 00:01:50,476 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. That means so much to me. 24 00:01:50,836 --> 00:01:52,876 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I love it. 25 00:01:52,996 --> 00:01:56,836 Speaker 2: And let me just tell you that I don't know 26 00:01:56,876 --> 00:02:00,036 Speaker 2: how you thought of this appendix where you go through 27 00:02:00,276 --> 00:02:03,556 Speaker 2: like every chapter, what the science says, what you can do. 28 00:02:03,996 --> 00:02:05,956 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm going to make a bot out of this, 29 00:02:06,476 --> 00:02:08,956 Speaker 2: and I'm going to name it my therapist name, and 30 00:02:09,156 --> 00:02:11,116 Speaker 2: then I'm just going to live in the appendix. Okay, 31 00:02:11,396 --> 00:02:14,316 Speaker 2: sorry for everybody that's joined. I'd like to use this 32 00:02:14,356 --> 00:02:18,716 Speaker 2: as my personal therapy session because it's that good. I'm 33 00:02:18,716 --> 00:02:20,996 Speaker 2: going to read an introduction, which is kind of weird 34 00:02:21,036 --> 00:02:26,276 Speaker 2: because Mysen Kursker and we all know her author, podcast creator, host, 35 00:02:26,636 --> 00:02:32,076 Speaker 2: cognitive scientist. Her podcast A Slight Change of Plans one 36 00:02:32,076 --> 00:02:35,516 Speaker 2: of my favorites, named best show of the Year by Apple, 37 00:02:35,756 --> 00:02:40,596 Speaker 2: deservedly like the appendix. She served as a Senior policy 38 00:02:40,636 --> 00:02:43,116 Speaker 2: advisor in the Obama White House, where she founded and 39 00:02:43,196 --> 00:02:46,196 Speaker 2: chaired the Social and Behavioral Sciences Team. She was also 40 00:02:46,236 --> 00:02:49,276 Speaker 2: appointed as the first Behavioral Science Advisor to the un 41 00:02:49,716 --> 00:02:52,516 Speaker 2: She has a BA from Yale, a PhD from Oxford 42 00:02:52,596 --> 00:02:55,796 Speaker 2: as a Rhodes Scholar and completed a post doctoral fellowship 43 00:02:55,796 --> 00:03:00,956 Speaker 2: in cognitive neuroscience at Stanford. Let me just skip to 44 00:03:00,956 --> 00:03:02,916 Speaker 2: the part where she's a total badass but then writes 45 00:03:02,916 --> 00:03:06,076 Speaker 2: in a way that we can actually understand, feel not alone, 46 00:03:06,276 --> 00:03:08,916 Speaker 2: and make great changes. So you want to start with 47 00:03:08,916 --> 00:03:13,276 Speaker 2: a rapid fire, I do. Okay, what have you binged 48 00:03:13,316 --> 00:03:14,556 Speaker 2: lightly that you loved? 49 00:03:15,076 --> 00:03:22,156 Speaker 1: Oh? Heated rivalry. My husband was like, my wife has 50 00:03:22,196 --> 00:03:24,676 Speaker 1: departed the building because I just was watching the show 51 00:03:24,716 --> 00:03:27,196 Speaker 1: obsessively all of last week. I'm like, you know, there 52 00:03:27,276 --> 00:03:28,956 Speaker 1: is a book launched, a prep form, but I'm like, 53 00:03:29,276 --> 00:03:31,676 Speaker 1: there are more important matters here. Okay, I need to 54 00:03:31,676 --> 00:03:32,676 Speaker 1: know how this ends. 55 00:03:33,036 --> 00:03:35,876 Speaker 3: I mean, life made other plans. 56 00:03:36,076 --> 00:03:38,156 Speaker 1: Yeah, very important plan for Shane. 57 00:03:38,196 --> 00:03:42,556 Speaker 3: And yeah, I'm obsessed. I've seen it. 58 00:03:42,996 --> 00:03:47,196 Speaker 1: You know that the real life Ilia is from Texas. 59 00:03:47,556 --> 00:03:51,796 Speaker 1: Yessian accent is Yes, I was so impressed. I really 60 00:03:51,836 --> 00:03:52,876 Speaker 1: thought the dude was Russian. 61 00:03:53,356 --> 00:03:55,156 Speaker 2: So, oh my god, it's so good. It's such I 62 00:03:55,196 --> 00:03:56,716 Speaker 2: love it. It's a great, a great love story. So 63 00:03:56,716 --> 00:04:01,796 Speaker 2: I've seen it twice. I'm with you, Okay, favorite meal. 64 00:04:02,876 --> 00:04:06,316 Speaker 2: I love Mexican food, so Enchilada's. 65 00:04:06,156 --> 00:04:07,156 Speaker 3: Cheese Andilada's chicken. 66 00:04:07,196 --> 00:04:08,996 Speaker 1: Enchiladasila's vegetarian. 67 00:04:09,356 --> 00:04:11,196 Speaker 3: Oh vegetarian, okay, cheese inchiladas. 68 00:04:11,196 --> 00:04:12,436 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, what about you? 69 00:04:15,276 --> 00:04:20,276 Speaker 2: I'm gonna get I'm not vegetarian. I don't no heat 70 00:04:20,276 --> 00:04:22,676 Speaker 2: in the chat, but I'm gonna probably have a beefihita. 71 00:04:22,756 --> 00:04:24,956 Speaker 2: But I will join you for a cheese inchilada as well. 72 00:04:25,236 --> 00:04:25,516 Speaker 3: Nice. 73 00:04:25,556 --> 00:04:27,356 Speaker 1: You can have that mine, thank you. 74 00:04:28,076 --> 00:04:30,796 Speaker 2: I'll take it and some welcome oley and chips of course, 75 00:04:31,716 --> 00:04:35,036 Speaker 2: and icy. 76 00:04:35,436 --> 00:04:37,756 Speaker 3: Ideal superpower. 77 00:04:38,836 --> 00:04:44,596 Speaker 1: Sleeping on airplanes. That's how you know you turned forty. 78 00:04:44,796 --> 00:04:46,956 Speaker 1: I turned forty to Zever, it used to be like 79 00:04:47,156 --> 00:04:49,996 Speaker 1: to fly to read other people's minds, and now I'm like, 80 00:04:50,316 --> 00:04:52,996 Speaker 1: I would like to have high quality sleep when I travel. 81 00:04:53,876 --> 00:04:56,756 Speaker 2: Official, if we're gonna, if we're gonna go with that, 82 00:04:56,836 --> 00:05:00,436 Speaker 2: I'll go for risk free hrt oh nice. 83 00:05:00,716 --> 00:05:03,276 Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, that is what everyone's talking about these days. Okay, 84 00:05:03,276 --> 00:05:07,236 Speaker 1: I'm that too, Yeah, yeah, okay. One song that would 85 00:05:07,236 --> 00:05:09,676 Speaker 1: have to be on the playlist of your life. Oh 86 00:05:09,756 --> 00:05:12,956 Speaker 1: my gosh. The Alex weren Ordinary song just took my 87 00:05:12,996 --> 00:05:13,556 Speaker 1: breath away. 88 00:05:14,116 --> 00:05:16,116 Speaker 3: That's how I can give you goosebumps a little bit. 89 00:05:16,396 --> 00:05:20,276 Speaker 1: He's like twenty early nighties, I know, and he's the 90 00:05:20,356 --> 00:05:24,236 Speaker 1: oldest soul. So I'm at my brother's apartment. I was 91 00:05:24,276 --> 00:05:26,276 Speaker 1: just dancing to that song with my nephew. So it 92 00:05:26,316 --> 00:05:30,476 Speaker 1: really transcends generations because he's eight and he's like, oh, Maya, 93 00:05:30,516 --> 00:05:32,716 Speaker 1: I love that song. Maya. You and I have such 94 00:05:32,796 --> 00:05:35,476 Speaker 1: similar music taste. And I was like, that's the coolest 95 00:05:35,476 --> 00:05:37,316 Speaker 1: anyone's ever thought. I was in that age group, So 96 00:05:37,356 --> 00:05:37,916 Speaker 1: this is great. 97 00:05:38,276 --> 00:05:40,556 Speaker 3: He he wants to be cool like you. I love this. 98 00:05:41,596 --> 00:05:44,556 Speaker 2: Okay, we've got to get into the book because I 99 00:05:46,636 --> 00:05:47,956 Speaker 2: have a lot of questions, and then we're going to 100 00:05:47,956 --> 00:05:51,356 Speaker 2: get some audience questions, which is really exciting. So let's 101 00:05:51,436 --> 00:05:53,636 Speaker 2: talk about from the I feel like I know you, 102 00:05:53,676 --> 00:05:55,476 Speaker 2: but I want everybody to know you like I know you. 103 00:05:55,516 --> 00:05:57,356 Speaker 2: So I'm going to back it way up and say, 104 00:05:57,996 --> 00:06:03,156 Speaker 2: tell me about tell all of us about what inspired 105 00:06:03,236 --> 00:06:04,556 Speaker 2: you to write the book. 106 00:06:06,196 --> 00:06:08,156 Speaker 1: So I should start off by saying I never planned 107 00:06:08,156 --> 00:06:10,156 Speaker 1: to write a book. I was happy to go to 108 00:06:10,236 --> 00:06:12,836 Speaker 1: my grave not having written a book. And when I 109 00:06:12,876 --> 00:06:15,516 Speaker 1: started a slight change of plans, I really doubled down 110 00:06:15,516 --> 00:06:17,356 Speaker 1: on this. I was like, the podcast is giving you 111 00:06:17,396 --> 00:06:20,636 Speaker 1: what I need, and so no book, no book, no book. 112 00:06:21,276 --> 00:06:24,876 Speaker 1: And then something happened where I think I had done 113 00:06:24,876 --> 00:06:28,196 Speaker 1: maybe fifty or sixty episodes of a Slight Change, and 114 00:06:28,676 --> 00:06:33,116 Speaker 1: I started to notice these very interesting connections across stories, 115 00:06:33,636 --> 00:06:36,676 Speaker 1: and I wasn't expecting to find them. But there was 116 00:06:36,716 --> 00:06:38,476 Speaker 1: one story in particular I talk about in the book 117 00:06:38,516 --> 00:06:42,276 Speaker 1: where I just interviewed a young thirty something who had 118 00:06:42,276 --> 00:06:45,836 Speaker 1: been diagnosed with stage four cancer, and I'd also interviewed 119 00:06:45,836 --> 00:06:48,156 Speaker 1: a woman who found out that her late husband had 120 00:06:48,236 --> 00:06:51,836 Speaker 1: cheated on her for decades, and they were both reckoning 121 00:06:52,116 --> 00:06:56,036 Speaker 1: with a similar feeling of betrayal. And I was like, oh, wow, 122 00:06:56,916 --> 00:07:00,236 Speaker 1: there is something very universal about the way that we're 123 00:07:00,276 --> 00:07:04,756 Speaker 1: navigating these changes in ways that transcend the exact topic, 124 00:07:04,916 --> 00:07:08,036 Speaker 1: the exact issue. Andre and I just felt like in 125 00:07:08,076 --> 00:07:12,196 Speaker 1: our society, when we're going through hard stuff, people direct 126 00:07:12,316 --> 00:07:15,556 Speaker 1: us towards the area of interest. So I'm like, you know, 127 00:07:15,876 --> 00:07:18,156 Speaker 1: if I'm saying I'm having a tough time at work, Oh, 128 00:07:18,196 --> 00:07:20,876 Speaker 1: I have a friend who you know recently been laid off, 129 00:07:20,916 --> 00:07:22,796 Speaker 1: you should talk to them. I'm going through divorce. Oh, 130 00:07:22,836 --> 00:07:25,596 Speaker 1: actually my friend went through divorce. Oh I've lost a 131 00:07:25,596 --> 00:07:27,556 Speaker 1: loved one. Go to the bereef part of the bookstore 132 00:07:27,876 --> 00:07:30,036 Speaker 1: that's sort of the generic advice, which is you need 133 00:07:30,076 --> 00:07:32,876 Speaker 1: to find people whose stories look like yours. And I 134 00:07:32,956 --> 00:07:35,716 Speaker 1: was having these insights from collecting the wisdom of my 135 00:07:35,796 --> 00:07:40,676 Speaker 1: guests that no, actually we share a similar psychology. You 136 00:07:40,796 --> 00:07:43,356 Speaker 1: don't need to find people whose stories look like yours. 137 00:07:43,636 --> 00:07:46,476 Speaker 1: There are lessons that will emerge irrespective of what you're 138 00:07:46,516 --> 00:07:49,676 Speaker 1: going through, that are relevant for all of us. And 139 00:07:49,756 --> 00:07:52,756 Speaker 1: so I felt like a book was the only medium 140 00:07:52,876 --> 00:07:57,036 Speaker 1: through which I could connect and combine new stories that 141 00:07:57,076 --> 00:07:59,316 Speaker 1: people hadn't heard on the podcast, which is primarily what 142 00:07:59,476 --> 00:08:02,916 Speaker 1: the other side of changes, and then illuminate those universal 143 00:08:02,996 --> 00:08:05,836 Speaker 1: lessons that sat within the stories. And so this was 144 00:08:05,876 --> 00:08:08,396 Speaker 1: truly a passion project because again, like didn't want to 145 00:08:08,396 --> 00:08:10,436 Speaker 1: write a book, but felt compelled to write a book, 146 00:08:10,476 --> 00:08:12,356 Speaker 1: which is sort of the best way to go about 147 00:08:12,476 --> 00:08:15,076 Speaker 1: this process because it is not for the faint hearted, 148 00:08:16,076 --> 00:08:17,956 Speaker 1: as I learned, No, And. 149 00:08:17,876 --> 00:08:20,916 Speaker 2: I think I just have to say, on behalf of 150 00:08:20,956 --> 00:08:23,516 Speaker 2: everyone that's here, I'm grateful that you did that, because 151 00:08:23,636 --> 00:08:27,156 Speaker 2: one of the things I love about your podcast is 152 00:08:28,716 --> 00:08:36,316 Speaker 2: sometimes what I'm in a hard place, especially I mean, yeah, 153 00:08:36,396 --> 00:08:37,476 Speaker 2: I mean I was going to say I was going 154 00:08:37,516 --> 00:08:39,276 Speaker 2: to talk about a hard place that I'm struggling with 155 00:08:39,356 --> 00:08:41,796 Speaker 2: right now because it's I've got a daughter getting married 156 00:08:41,836 --> 00:08:44,996 Speaker 2: and a mom that died, you know, earlier than I thought, 157 00:08:45,036 --> 00:08:46,836 Speaker 2: and I'm wrestling with the fact that she's not going 158 00:08:46,836 --> 00:08:49,676 Speaker 2: to be at the wedding. But none of the stories 159 00:08:50,036 --> 00:08:53,476 Speaker 2: that helped me understand myself in the book were about 160 00:08:53,556 --> 00:08:55,996 Speaker 2: grief and death. They were about other types of losses 161 00:08:55,996 --> 00:08:59,436 Speaker 2: and other kinds of changes of plans. So I'm going 162 00:08:59,476 --> 00:09:01,796 Speaker 2: to say you're a really good qualitative researcher, which might 163 00:09:01,876 --> 00:09:03,076 Speaker 2: hurt your heart, but that. 164 00:09:03,236 --> 00:09:07,716 Speaker 1: Doesn't It really doesn't. I mean, as an academic, to 165 00:09:07,756 --> 00:09:10,876 Speaker 1: your point, people are like quality stuff, narrative storytelling, but 166 00:09:12,276 --> 00:09:15,196 Speaker 1: I have been humbled. I mean, the power of stories 167 00:09:15,276 --> 00:09:18,276 Speaker 1: is immense, and I will I will go to that 168 00:09:19,236 --> 00:09:22,556 Speaker 1: for qualitative research and storytelling. I'm a full on convert. 169 00:09:23,036 --> 00:09:26,236 Speaker 2: Okay, y'all, y'all are hearing it here, first team, heated 170 00:09:26,316 --> 00:09:30,716 Speaker 2: rivalry team, qualitative research. I always used to say that 171 00:09:31,316 --> 00:09:33,916 Speaker 2: stories are just data with the soul, like it's just 172 00:09:33,996 --> 00:09:38,236 Speaker 2: you know, they're really important data. Let's go to your 173 00:09:38,356 --> 00:09:44,396 Speaker 2: childhood dream of being a violinist, share that story with 174 00:09:44,476 --> 00:09:50,756 Speaker 2: everyone and how that changed how you thought about change, 175 00:09:51,836 --> 00:09:54,196 Speaker 2: And I would love for you to speak to something 176 00:09:54,516 --> 00:09:57,876 Speaker 2: that I have learned from you, and I look for 177 00:09:57,996 --> 00:10:01,676 Speaker 2: it immediately in my own life when I'm struggling, and 178 00:10:01,716 --> 00:10:07,676 Speaker 2: I help my kids with it too. How it impacted 179 00:10:07,716 --> 00:10:09,116 Speaker 2: the way you thought of your idea? 180 00:10:10,276 --> 00:10:15,236 Speaker 1: Long story short, My childhood was fully centered around the violin. 181 00:10:15,716 --> 00:10:18,156 Speaker 1: When I was six, my mom went up to our 182 00:10:18,196 --> 00:10:20,836 Speaker 1: attic and brought down my grandmother's violin that she had 183 00:10:20,876 --> 00:10:23,676 Speaker 1: played as a little girl in Burma and India. And 184 00:10:23,796 --> 00:10:26,036 Speaker 1: I was so close to my grandmother. I mean when 185 00:10:26,036 --> 00:10:28,516 Speaker 1: I would go to India in the summers, we were inseparable. 186 00:10:28,836 --> 00:10:30,356 Speaker 1: I would stand next to her in the kitchen when 187 00:10:30,356 --> 00:10:32,276 Speaker 1: she was cooking food. I would sit next to her 188 00:10:32,276 --> 00:10:35,396 Speaker 1: in prayer physician when she like meditated and did prayers 189 00:10:35,436 --> 00:10:38,156 Speaker 1: to the Hindu gods for hours. I would sleep next 190 00:10:38,156 --> 00:10:40,916 Speaker 1: to her on the linoleum floor with clothes, our pillows. 191 00:10:40,996 --> 00:10:44,676 Speaker 1: I just felt a natural gravitation towards her. And so 192 00:10:45,196 --> 00:10:48,316 Speaker 1: when my mom, I'm the youngest of four kids, offered 193 00:10:48,316 --> 00:10:50,636 Speaker 1: me the chance to play the violin, I was like, yes, 194 00:10:50,796 --> 00:10:53,036 Speaker 1: that's what our grandmother did. You know. We were separated 195 00:10:53,036 --> 00:10:55,156 Speaker 1: by thousands of miles, so I wanted anything to feel 196 00:10:55,196 --> 00:10:58,356 Speaker 1: close to her, and it was like a magnet because 197 00:10:58,396 --> 00:11:00,116 Speaker 1: my parents had to tell me to do lots of stuff, 198 00:11:00,116 --> 00:11:02,396 Speaker 1: but for some reason, they never had to tell me 199 00:11:02,436 --> 00:11:04,636 Speaker 1: to practice, which was kind of astonishing for them, like 200 00:11:04,676 --> 00:11:07,876 Speaker 1: what six year old wants to practice the violin? Right? 201 00:11:08,396 --> 00:11:10,276 Speaker 1: But I really did and I didn't have to be 202 00:11:10,316 --> 00:11:14,516 Speaker 1: pressured at all, and so I start to develop big dreams. 203 00:11:14,596 --> 00:11:18,236 Speaker 1: I get accepted at Juilliard, the world renowned violinist. It 204 00:11:18,316 --> 00:11:21,156 Speaker 1: saw Pearlman invites me to be his private student. I mean, 205 00:11:21,156 --> 00:11:23,596 Speaker 1: it feels like it was a different lifetime ago, Brene. 206 00:11:23,596 --> 00:11:27,116 Speaker 1: But I think like when Pearlman takes me out as 207 00:11:27,156 --> 00:11:30,156 Speaker 1: a student that I might have the opportunity to go pro. 208 00:11:30,316 --> 00:11:32,556 Speaker 1: It was sort of the vote of confidence that I 209 00:11:32,636 --> 00:11:35,276 Speaker 1: needed to get outside of my imposter syndrome and to 210 00:11:35,396 --> 00:11:38,796 Speaker 1: really believe I had it. And so everything was going 211 00:11:38,836 --> 00:11:43,236 Speaker 1: according to plan until my slight change of plans, acute 212 00:11:43,276 --> 00:11:45,836 Speaker 1: hand injury ended my dreams in a moment. I was 213 00:11:45,876 --> 00:11:48,596 Speaker 1: at summer camp. I was fifteen years old. I was 214 00:11:49,156 --> 00:11:53,916 Speaker 1: also very very stubborn, very much in denial, kept playing 215 00:11:53,956 --> 00:11:58,756 Speaker 1: through pain, had surgeries, alternative treatments, kept performing. I just 216 00:11:59,076 --> 00:12:01,836 Speaker 1: I couldn't let the violin go, and I think I've 217 00:12:01,876 --> 00:12:04,436 Speaker 1: only realized in recent years that the reason for that 218 00:12:04,796 --> 00:12:09,756 Speaker 1: is my entire sense of worth and well being identity 219 00:12:10,356 --> 00:12:14,956 Speaker 1: was entangled with the instrument, and so in losing the violin, 220 00:12:15,116 --> 00:12:17,636 Speaker 1: I wouldn't just be losing an instrument. I would be 221 00:12:17,676 --> 00:12:21,876 Speaker 1: losing myself. And that just felt way too threatening. Not 222 00:12:21,916 --> 00:12:25,396 Speaker 1: only did I feel such deep connection to it, but 223 00:12:25,436 --> 00:12:28,396 Speaker 1: it was also filling these voids I felt in my life. 224 00:12:28,436 --> 00:12:31,036 Speaker 1: So I was teased and bullied a lot as a kid. 225 00:12:31,156 --> 00:12:32,996 Speaker 1: I was one of a few brown kids in a 226 00:12:32,996 --> 00:12:36,876 Speaker 1: predominantly white school. The girls in my neighborhood were so cruel. 227 00:12:37,276 --> 00:12:39,436 Speaker 1: At the lunch table one day, this one girl was like, 228 00:12:39,516 --> 00:12:41,956 Speaker 1: you are so ugly, it's painful for me to look 229 00:12:41,956 --> 00:12:43,516 Speaker 1: at you, and then just got up and left and 230 00:12:43,556 --> 00:12:46,356 Speaker 1: went to another table. By the way. Like a decade 231 00:12:46,436 --> 00:12:48,756 Speaker 1: or two later, she saw my wedding photos and she 232 00:12:48,876 --> 00:12:52,356 Speaker 1: was like stunning, And I'm like, where was that? Yeah, 233 00:12:52,356 --> 00:12:53,716 Speaker 1: when I was in middle school. 234 00:12:54,316 --> 00:12:57,036 Speaker 3: There's two we have in common, folks. I'm going to 235 00:12:57,156 --> 00:12:58,516 Speaker 3: keep it clean, but no. 236 00:12:58,796 --> 00:13:01,076 Speaker 1: Yeah, I digress. This is not relevant to the book. 237 00:13:01,116 --> 00:13:03,796 Speaker 1: I just clearly haven't healed from my childhood with now 238 00:13:03,836 --> 00:13:07,716 Speaker 1: I'm with you, let's go anyway. So I was teased 239 00:13:07,756 --> 00:13:09,436 Speaker 1: a lot, but then when I went to Julia, I 240 00:13:09,436 --> 00:13:12,876 Speaker 1: felt so at home because it was a very international group, 241 00:13:12,996 --> 00:13:15,476 Speaker 1: so they embrace me for my indian ness and like 242 00:13:15,516 --> 00:13:17,716 Speaker 1: it just didn't seem to matter. And So what I 243 00:13:17,836 --> 00:13:20,996 Speaker 1: learned from that experience, and it's taking me a long time, 244 00:13:21,156 --> 00:13:25,716 Speaker 1: is that we so often anchor our self identities to 245 00:13:25,836 --> 00:13:28,956 Speaker 1: what we do, to the roles or labels that we occupy. 246 00:13:29,156 --> 00:13:32,556 Speaker 1: So that could be being a violinist, it could be 247 00:13:32,556 --> 00:13:34,676 Speaker 1: being an athlete, it could be being a mom, head 248 00:13:34,716 --> 00:13:37,996 Speaker 1: of the PTA, whatever it is that tends to be 249 00:13:38,636 --> 00:13:42,596 Speaker 1: how we affiliate, and having those identities can bring our 250 00:13:42,596 --> 00:13:45,956 Speaker 1: lives lots of meaning and purpose and stave off existential angst. 251 00:13:46,396 --> 00:13:49,476 Speaker 1: But the downside is that when life does throw you 252 00:13:49,516 --> 00:13:51,996 Speaker 1: a curveball, it can threaten that thing and that can 253 00:13:52,036 --> 00:13:55,956 Speaker 1: be very destabilizing. And so I have learned that it's 254 00:13:56,036 --> 00:14:00,916 Speaker 1: really helpful to expand our self identity to include not 255 00:14:01,156 --> 00:14:03,596 Speaker 1: just what we do, but why we do that thing. 256 00:14:04,076 --> 00:14:05,796 Speaker 1: So I asked myself, what was it that I loved 257 00:14:05,836 --> 00:14:09,316 Speaker 1: about the violin Emotional connection? That is what I that 258 00:14:09,436 --> 00:14:11,956 Speaker 1: is what makes me light up that's what makes mya tick. 259 00:14:12,716 --> 00:14:15,156 Speaker 1: Just because I lost the violin didn't mean that I 260 00:14:15,196 --> 00:14:17,116 Speaker 1: lost what led me to love it in the first place. 261 00:14:17,516 --> 00:14:19,716 Speaker 1: That part of me was actually still intact. So even 262 00:14:19,756 --> 00:14:23,076 Speaker 1: though I felt I'd lost everything, I actually hadn't, And 263 00:14:23,476 --> 00:14:26,116 Speaker 1: it was just a matter of finding other outlets through 264 00:14:26,116 --> 00:14:29,476 Speaker 1: which to express this very fundamental desire, which was to 265 00:14:29,476 --> 00:14:32,756 Speaker 1: emotionally connect with people. And I have through my book 266 00:14:32,756 --> 00:14:34,796 Speaker 1: the other side of change. I have through my podcast 267 00:14:34,876 --> 00:14:38,436 Speaker 1: a slight change of plans. There are other ways to 268 00:14:38,476 --> 00:14:41,516 Speaker 1: figure out how to express your why, and it'll give 269 00:14:41,556 --> 00:14:43,836 Speaker 1: you a softer landing when you do that, because it 270 00:14:43,876 --> 00:14:46,356 Speaker 1: can serve as a compass. And one thing that was 271 00:14:46,356 --> 00:14:48,756 Speaker 1: so unexpected about the book is the final chapter ended 272 00:14:48,836 --> 00:14:51,276 Speaker 1: up being memoir. It turned out I was going through 273 00:14:51,276 --> 00:14:53,716 Speaker 1: my own unexpected changes as I was writing the book, 274 00:14:54,196 --> 00:14:56,316 Speaker 1: and as I was contending with the fact that my 275 00:14:56,836 --> 00:14:59,836 Speaker 1: hopes of becoming a mom weren't coming true. I actually 276 00:14:59,876 --> 00:15:02,396 Speaker 1: had to ask myself those same set of questions when 277 00:15:02,436 --> 00:15:06,436 Speaker 1: it came to motherhood. What was I craving from parenthood 278 00:15:06,436 --> 00:15:10,556 Speaker 1: and could I find some of those traits and features elsewhere? So, yeah, 279 00:15:10,556 --> 00:15:12,836 Speaker 1: I would encourage everyone who's listening to us right now, 280 00:15:12,916 --> 00:15:15,676 Speaker 1: ask yourself what your why is, because life can't take 281 00:15:15,716 --> 00:15:17,556 Speaker 1: that away from you. You can hold on to that 282 00:15:17,596 --> 00:15:18,796 Speaker 1: in these crisis moments. 283 00:15:19,156 --> 00:15:21,396 Speaker 2: I love the story so much with your grandmother because 284 00:15:21,396 --> 00:15:25,836 Speaker 2: I had a similar relationship with my grandmother. I was 285 00:15:25,876 --> 00:15:27,996 Speaker 2: writing down words when you were telling this story and 286 00:15:28,036 --> 00:15:30,276 Speaker 2: when I was hearing it again. You know, it wasn't 287 00:15:30,356 --> 00:15:39,396 Speaker 2: just identity. It's belonging, yes, history, connection, worth. It's these 288 00:15:39,436 --> 00:15:45,796 Speaker 2: things that are so huge and fundamental to being human 289 00:15:47,316 --> 00:15:53,436 Speaker 2: that we thumbtack to things we can't control. Where those 290 00:15:53,436 --> 00:15:57,356 Speaker 2: things live inside of us, you know, and you thumbtack 291 00:15:57,436 --> 00:16:02,596 Speaker 2: them to an event or an instrument or a role, 292 00:16:04,356 --> 00:16:07,516 Speaker 2: And none of those things, over the course of a lifetime, 293 00:16:07,636 --> 00:16:10,276 Speaker 2: can hold the weight of what we're talking about here, 294 00:16:10,756 --> 00:16:13,156 Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean? Like, yes, they're so 295 00:16:13,316 --> 00:16:16,716 Speaker 2: well said, hold the weight. That's exactly right. I mean, 296 00:16:17,716 --> 00:16:20,956 Speaker 2: I learned this lesson too from Olivia. The first chapter 297 00:16:21,116 --> 00:16:23,076 Speaker 2: turns out she's putting all of her self worth in 298 00:16:23,076 --> 00:16:25,596 Speaker 2: the opinions of others. You and I talked about this, 299 00:16:25,676 --> 00:16:27,876 Speaker 2: and you're on a slight change of plans. We know 300 00:16:27,956 --> 00:16:30,596 Speaker 2: how far that gets you? Yeah, we know how tenuus 301 00:16:30,596 --> 00:16:31,516 Speaker 2: that relationship is. 302 00:16:31,556 --> 00:16:34,836 Speaker 3: Yeah, that is the ultimate thumb sack word. 303 00:16:34,716 --> 00:16:39,076 Speaker 1: Exactly, and she becomes locked in. She is literally unable 304 00:16:39,116 --> 00:16:41,636 Speaker 1: to move any part of her body other than her eyes, 305 00:16:41,716 --> 00:16:43,716 Speaker 1: and she can only blink to communicate with the world. 306 00:16:44,116 --> 00:16:47,436 Speaker 1: Talk about a surrendering to the rawness of who you 307 00:16:47,476 --> 00:16:49,956 Speaker 1: are because you can no longer curate any version of 308 00:16:49,996 --> 00:16:52,436 Speaker 1: yourself for other people that you think is palatable. You're 309 00:16:52,516 --> 00:16:57,116 Speaker 1: literally locked in. And so you're exactly right. You should 310 00:16:57,156 --> 00:17:01,996 Speaker 1: ask yourself how much weight could this thing hold of 311 00:17:01,996 --> 00:17:04,756 Speaker 1: my identity? And is it possible that I can put 312 00:17:04,796 --> 00:17:07,716 Speaker 1: more eggs and more baskets? And is it possible that 313 00:17:07,756 --> 00:17:10,396 Speaker 1: I can diversify the loved? And by the way, it 314 00:17:10,436 --> 00:17:13,676 Speaker 1: can be very uncomfortable to do this. I remember on 315 00:17:13,756 --> 00:17:16,916 Speaker 1: the night of the second miscarriage where my husband Jimmy, 316 00:17:16,916 --> 00:17:19,716 Speaker 1: and I found out that our surrogate and miscarried twins. 317 00:17:19,796 --> 00:17:23,116 Speaker 1: We were just beside ourselves with grief, right, and I 318 00:17:23,156 --> 00:17:27,156 Speaker 1: remember Jimmy came into the bedroom and said, Maya, let's 319 00:17:27,236 --> 00:17:30,196 Speaker 1: just say a few things were grateful for And I 320 00:17:30,236 --> 00:17:34,836 Speaker 1: was like, oh, hell nah, I'm not doing a gratitude 321 00:17:34,916 --> 00:17:38,836 Speaker 1: exercise right now. Jimmy, you take your Instagram nonsense and 322 00:17:38,876 --> 00:17:41,596 Speaker 1: your toxic positivity. You go to the corner and you 323 00:17:41,676 --> 00:17:44,716 Speaker 1: do the gratitude exercise. Okay, I'm lying here, miserable with 324 00:17:44,756 --> 00:17:46,916 Speaker 1: the covers over me. And then he like kind of 325 00:17:46,956 --> 00:17:48,916 Speaker 1: wore me down. I was like, okay, fine, I'll just 326 00:17:48,916 --> 00:17:50,676 Speaker 1: do it. If anything, just like get him off my case. 327 00:17:50,676 --> 00:17:52,316 Speaker 1: And he was like so sweet and earnest. So I 328 00:17:52,356 --> 00:17:55,556 Speaker 1: also felt bad. And what I started to do, actually, 329 00:17:55,636 --> 00:17:58,316 Speaker 1: he's a software engineer. He unknowingly was engaging me in 330 00:17:58,356 --> 00:18:02,156 Speaker 1: a self affirmation exercise. And what is a self affirmation exercise. 331 00:18:02,196 --> 00:18:05,036 Speaker 1: It's when you list all the things that bring your 332 00:18:05,036 --> 00:18:08,316 Speaker 1: life meaning and purpose and value that are not being 333 00:18:08,356 --> 00:18:11,476 Speaker 1: threatened by the chain going through. And what that does 334 00:18:11,636 --> 00:18:14,836 Speaker 1: is it staves off denial. It makes the stakes less high, 335 00:18:15,276 --> 00:18:17,836 Speaker 1: and it makes you more okay with accepting your reality. 336 00:18:17,956 --> 00:18:20,236 Speaker 1: So I start rattling off my list. I'm like, I'm 337 00:18:20,276 --> 00:18:22,716 Speaker 1: so grateful to be an aunt to my sixties's nephews. 338 00:18:22,716 --> 00:18:24,716 Speaker 1: I'm so grateful to host a slight change of plans. 339 00:18:24,716 --> 00:18:26,396 Speaker 1: I have the best listeners in the world. They write 340 00:18:26,396 --> 00:18:29,076 Speaker 1: me these love letters all the time. I'm so grateful 341 00:18:29,156 --> 00:18:32,916 Speaker 1: to gossip about the Bachelor with my fitness trainer, all 342 00:18:32,916 --> 00:18:35,996 Speaker 1: these things. And it was like magic Brene, because I 343 00:18:36,036 --> 00:18:40,956 Speaker 1: felt myself zooming out on my life right sizing what 344 00:18:41,076 --> 00:18:44,316 Speaker 1: I was going through, I realized I developed tunnel vision. 345 00:18:44,356 --> 00:18:47,556 Speaker 1: I was so laser focused on motherhood that nothing else 346 00:18:47,596 --> 00:18:50,436 Speaker 1: that seemed to matter for the last few years. And 347 00:18:50,556 --> 00:18:52,836 Speaker 1: I suddenly saw, Oh my god, my life is so 348 00:18:52,996 --> 00:18:56,076 Speaker 1: full of rich and meaningful identities I'd just forgotten. 349 00:18:57,036 --> 00:18:59,076 Speaker 3: Oh my god, I just love the Jimmy story. It's 350 00:18:59,116 --> 00:19:00,796 Speaker 3: so great that he's still alive. 351 00:19:01,756 --> 00:19:12,836 Speaker 2: I mean, hij hi, Jimmy, we love you, We love you, Jimmy. 352 00:19:25,276 --> 00:19:37,116 Speaker 2: M What is You know what I think of when 353 00:19:37,276 --> 00:19:38,996 Speaker 2: I you know, as a social scientist, you know what 354 00:19:39,036 --> 00:19:41,756 Speaker 2: I think of when I think about what Jimmy did. 355 00:19:41,876 --> 00:19:44,076 Speaker 2: I think about the three p's, Like, this is not 356 00:19:44,196 --> 00:19:47,756 Speaker 2: pervasive in every corner of my life. This is not permanent, 357 00:19:48,236 --> 00:19:51,796 Speaker 2: and this is not personal. What is the what is 358 00:19:51,836 --> 00:19:54,036 Speaker 2: the neuroscience of. 359 00:19:56,516 --> 00:19:56,596 Speaker 3: That? 360 00:19:58,956 --> 00:20:02,916 Speaker 2: Like that swallow us whole hole that we go into 361 00:20:03,676 --> 00:20:06,876 Speaker 2: where we have no periphery at all. 362 00:20:07,236 --> 00:20:08,436 Speaker 3: Yeah, do you know what I mean? 363 00:20:08,556 --> 00:20:11,396 Speaker 2: Where I it seems like what Jimmy had you engage 364 00:20:11,436 --> 00:20:19,316 Speaker 2: in actually created a vision beyond that. 365 00:20:20,196 --> 00:20:25,036 Speaker 1: It's classic focusing illusion from behavioral economics. That's what's happening. 366 00:20:25,636 --> 00:20:26,676 Speaker 1: We've zoomed in our camera. 367 00:20:27,516 --> 00:20:30,236 Speaker 3: That is exactly what's happening, yeah. 368 00:20:31,916 --> 00:20:34,396 Speaker 1: To us. Yeah, so when we focus, when we so 369 00:20:34,516 --> 00:20:36,556 Speaker 1: just literally imagine that everyone on this call, you have 370 00:20:36,556 --> 00:20:38,996 Speaker 1: a camera and you press the zoom buttons so far 371 00:20:38,996 --> 00:20:41,156 Speaker 1: it's literally getting blurry. But that's what our minds do 372 00:20:41,276 --> 00:20:44,476 Speaker 1: in this moment of crisis, right, we literally forget that 373 00:20:44,556 --> 00:20:49,756 Speaker 1: there is any background where so laser focused in. And interestingly, 374 00:20:49,836 --> 00:20:52,316 Speaker 1: what happens when we have this focusing illusion where all 375 00:20:52,356 --> 00:20:54,876 Speaker 1: we see is this little spot And for some person 376 00:20:54,916 --> 00:20:57,796 Speaker 1: this is an illness. For another person's the divorce. For me, 377 00:20:57,836 --> 00:21:02,356 Speaker 1: it was the miscarriage. You will assign it massive significance, 378 00:21:02,716 --> 00:21:04,556 Speaker 1: the exclusion of everything else in your life that could 379 00:21:04,596 --> 00:21:06,956 Speaker 1: have meeting. And then something we were talking about before 380 00:21:06,996 --> 00:21:10,236 Speaker 1: this call. It's like the starter kit for roomen. That 381 00:21:10,396 --> 00:21:14,196 Speaker 1: is where rumination begins. You've zoomed in so closely to 382 00:21:14,236 --> 00:21:17,196 Speaker 1: the problem and you just start going over it and 383 00:21:17,236 --> 00:21:19,036 Speaker 1: over it and over it. We both talked about this 384 00:21:19,036 --> 00:21:21,796 Speaker 1: in Advanced Guys. We both have PhDs in rumination. Yeah, 385 00:21:21,876 --> 00:21:23,836 Speaker 1: I devote a whole chapter to it in the book. 386 00:21:23,916 --> 00:21:27,396 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I've devoted like thirty years to it personally, 387 00:21:28,316 --> 00:21:31,476 Speaker 2: Like I have every tag on here is like I 388 00:21:31,476 --> 00:21:36,956 Speaker 2: have a rumination question. Wait, define rumination for us. Talk 389 00:21:36,996 --> 00:21:39,196 Speaker 2: about why it's so hard on us, I mean, and 390 00:21:39,276 --> 00:21:42,556 Speaker 2: also the new research are not just emotionally hard, but 391 00:21:42,636 --> 00:21:46,276 Speaker 2: physically hard in our bodies, and then talk to us 392 00:21:46,316 --> 00:21:49,636 Speaker 2: about the relationship between all in rumination. 393 00:21:50,516 --> 00:21:56,156 Speaker 1: Yes, So rumination happens often in the aftermath of change 394 00:21:56,276 --> 00:22:01,316 Speaker 1: because in the face of so much uncertainty, which we 395 00:22:01,396 --> 00:22:04,036 Speaker 1: know our brains are not wired to enjoy. My favorite 396 00:22:04,076 --> 00:22:06,956 Speaker 1: study shows that we're more stressed when we're told we 397 00:22:07,036 --> 00:22:09,476 Speaker 1: have a fifty percent chance of getting an electric shock 398 00:22:09,836 --> 00:22:12,316 Speaker 1: than when we're told we have a one hundred percent chance. 399 00:22:12,756 --> 00:22:14,836 Speaker 1: So we'd rather be sure bad things going to happen 400 00:22:14,876 --> 00:22:17,076 Speaker 1: than to have to grapple with any ambiguity. I resonate 401 00:22:17,076 --> 00:22:19,436 Speaker 1: with this fully. I'm like, bring on the shocks, tell 402 00:22:19,476 --> 00:22:22,236 Speaker 1: me out the story, and I cannot deal with that 403 00:22:22,276 --> 00:22:24,836 Speaker 1: anticipatory anxiety, right, but. 404 00:22:24,876 --> 00:22:26,876 Speaker 3: Lock that shit down, yes, and get it over with, 405 00:22:27,116 --> 00:22:27,476 Speaker 3: Just get it. 406 00:22:27,476 --> 00:22:32,236 Speaker 1: Over with exactly. And so we have these regrets or 407 00:22:32,276 --> 00:22:37,276 Speaker 1: anxieties or worries or catastrophic thoughts about the future, whatever 408 00:22:37,316 --> 00:22:40,236 Speaker 1: it is, and we just start, almost like on a 409 00:22:40,236 --> 00:22:43,836 Speaker 1: hamster wheel, we start just running in circles. That's the 410 00:22:43,956 --> 00:22:46,436 Speaker 1: analogy that Ethan Cross, one of the researchers who studies 411 00:22:46,476 --> 00:22:49,796 Speaker 1: this uses, And you all know this feeling. You wake 412 00:22:49,876 --> 00:22:51,636 Speaker 1: up at three in the morning, let's say you had 413 00:22:51,676 --> 00:22:54,996 Speaker 1: a negative interaction with your coworker. You can't get them 414 00:22:54,996 --> 00:22:57,596 Speaker 1: out of your head, and you keep thinking you're making 415 00:22:57,636 --> 00:22:59,516 Speaker 1: progress as you think through this, but you end up 416 00:22:59,516 --> 00:23:02,516 Speaker 1: in exactly the same place over and over and over again. 417 00:23:02,796 --> 00:23:05,956 Speaker 1: It is so maddening. And I had actually a version 418 00:23:05,996 --> 00:23:08,276 Speaker 1: of this when I was in college. So the final chapter, 419 00:23:08,316 --> 00:23:10,596 Speaker 1: I think people know from a slight change of plans 420 00:23:10,956 --> 00:23:13,756 Speaker 1: one part of my path to motherhood story, which was 421 00:23:13,796 --> 00:23:17,156 Speaker 1: the fertility surrogacy part, they don't actually know the story 422 00:23:17,156 --> 00:23:20,156 Speaker 1: that predates it. And I'm actually very excited for people 423 00:23:20,236 --> 00:23:21,916 Speaker 1: to read this part because I never thought I would 424 00:23:21,916 --> 00:23:24,356 Speaker 1: share that. It was very, very hard for me to write, 425 00:23:24,796 --> 00:23:28,356 Speaker 1: but I actually developed an obsessive worry when I was 426 00:23:28,396 --> 00:23:32,836 Speaker 1: seventeen years old about my future kids suffering, and I 427 00:23:32,916 --> 00:23:36,396 Speaker 1: would just endlessly loop in my dorm room over and 428 00:23:36,436 --> 00:23:39,796 Speaker 1: over again about all the ill fates they could experience. 429 00:23:39,836 --> 00:23:42,116 Speaker 1: It could be you know, what if they, you know, 430 00:23:42,156 --> 00:23:45,396 Speaker 1: one day, experience massive debilitating depression, what if the experience 431 00:23:45,436 --> 00:23:46,996 Speaker 1: of hate crime. Like I was just going through all 432 00:23:46,996 --> 00:23:49,036 Speaker 1: the things, by the way, while everyone else was like 433 00:23:49,356 --> 00:23:54,476 Speaker 1: getting ship faced and go yeah, I was like thinking 434 00:23:54,516 --> 00:23:57,036 Speaker 1: about the future of humanity and how my children might 435 00:23:57,196 --> 00:24:01,316 Speaker 1: hypothetical children would prosper, super cool, super fun friend. You 436 00:24:01,356 --> 00:24:04,356 Speaker 1: guys would have all loved me in college obviously. But 437 00:24:04,516 --> 00:24:08,516 Speaker 1: here's the thing about rumination. We don't get to choose 438 00:24:09,316 --> 00:24:12,516 Speaker 1: what our brains obsess over, and that's what's so annoying 439 00:24:12,516 --> 00:24:15,636 Speaker 1: about it. It will just find you. And then one 440 00:24:15,636 --> 00:24:17,476 Speaker 1: of the reasons I devote a whole chapter to it 441 00:24:17,516 --> 00:24:20,196 Speaker 1: is that there are very effective strategies for us to 442 00:24:20,236 --> 00:24:24,196 Speaker 1: actually break that obsessive loop and to forge what psychologists 443 00:24:24,236 --> 00:24:28,756 Speaker 1: call psychological distance between you and your current preoccupations. So 444 00:24:28,876 --> 00:24:32,676 Speaker 1: one of my favorite, very easy to do strategies is 445 00:24:32,716 --> 00:24:36,796 Speaker 1: to invite awe inspiring experiences into your life, so we 446 00:24:36,876 --> 00:24:39,396 Speaker 1: can feel awe in the presence of anything that is 447 00:24:39,556 --> 00:24:43,636 Speaker 1: vast and that transcends our understanding of the world. The 448 00:24:43,716 --> 00:24:46,836 Speaker 1: obvious ones are music, art, nature, but my favorite one 449 00:24:46,876 --> 00:24:49,356 Speaker 1: that I feel doesn't get recognized enough and deserves to 450 00:24:49,356 --> 00:24:52,116 Speaker 1: be at the front of the line is moral beauty, 451 00:24:52,156 --> 00:24:55,516 Speaker 1: and that's when we just witness other extraordinary acts that 452 00:24:55,636 --> 00:24:58,636 Speaker 1: human beings engage in. It could be their kindness or 453 00:24:58,676 --> 00:25:01,156 Speaker 1: self sacrifice, or their courage, or the resilience in the 454 00:25:01,156 --> 00:25:06,076 Speaker 1: face of illness, whatever it is. It violates our assumptions 455 00:25:06,116 --> 00:25:08,876 Speaker 1: about what humans are capable of and the best way possible, 456 00:25:09,276 --> 00:25:12,236 Speaker 1: and in turn rewires our brains and makes us see 457 00:25:12,236 --> 00:25:15,156 Speaker 1: what maybe we are capable of. It gives us that 458 00:25:15,276 --> 00:25:21,116 Speaker 1: incredible capacity for imagination around our potential. And so what 459 00:25:21,196 --> 00:25:24,116 Speaker 1: aud does is that it dampens the parts of the 460 00:25:24,116 --> 00:25:27,756 Speaker 1: brain that are associated with self immersion, like the ego 461 00:25:27,876 --> 00:25:32,636 Speaker 1: eparts the default mode network, and in doing so, in 462 00:25:32,716 --> 00:25:36,196 Speaker 1: dampening neural activity, it allows us to step outside of 463 00:25:36,236 --> 00:25:40,436 Speaker 1: our individual wants and needs and anxieties. Oh, we get 464 00:25:40,436 --> 00:25:43,276 Speaker 1: the necessary perspective we need. We are able to see 465 00:25:43,316 --> 00:25:46,036 Speaker 1: our problems with a little bit more clarity and objectivity. 466 00:25:46,476 --> 00:25:48,956 Speaker 1: And I want to hear how it worked for you. 467 00:25:49,276 --> 00:25:52,076 Speaker 2: I've tried it twice, and I tried two different things. 468 00:25:52,156 --> 00:25:54,316 Speaker 2: I looked at Steve and I said at the end 469 00:25:54,396 --> 00:25:57,596 Speaker 2: of last year and said I need to go fishing, 470 00:25:57,876 --> 00:26:02,676 Speaker 2: and he's like, and we're big Gulf Coast South Texas 471 00:26:02,676 --> 00:26:06,356 Speaker 2: fisher people, and where the sunset goes on for miles 472 00:26:06,916 --> 00:26:08,396 Speaker 2: and it's just incredible. 473 00:26:08,756 --> 00:26:12,076 Speaker 3: And I was so deep in rumination. 474 00:26:12,236 --> 00:26:13,876 Speaker 2: I was almost having a little bit of a hard 475 00:26:13,916 --> 00:26:17,436 Speaker 2: time getting out of bed, because you tackle, you tackle 476 00:26:17,476 --> 00:26:19,916 Speaker 2: another word that's a really as an emotional someone who 477 00:26:19,956 --> 00:26:25,716 Speaker 2: stays emotional granularity. Despair the belief that today will tomorrow 478 00:26:25,756 --> 00:26:27,796 Speaker 2: will be just like today is the way I define it. 479 00:26:28,556 --> 00:26:30,636 Speaker 3: And so I was in some moderate despair. 480 00:26:31,116 --> 00:26:37,516 Speaker 2: And we went and I watched that sunset and it 481 00:26:37,756 --> 00:26:44,316 Speaker 2: was it literally melted my rumination. This was this was 482 00:26:44,396 --> 00:26:48,196 Speaker 2: deeply meaningful for me. And the second time I caught 483 00:26:48,196 --> 00:26:53,476 Speaker 2: myself ruminating, I couldn't get to the Gulf Coast. But 484 00:26:53,556 --> 00:26:58,476 Speaker 2: I listened to Bergheim, the new album, and yeah, just 485 00:26:58,516 --> 00:27:01,036 Speaker 2: with my headphones on in the dark, and I was like, 486 00:27:02,716 --> 00:27:05,396 Speaker 2: I don't know, there's something about I studied Awe for 487 00:27:05,476 --> 00:27:09,676 Speaker 2: Atlas of the Heart. There's something that is such a 488 00:27:09,756 --> 00:27:16,836 Speaker 2: counterintuitive relief about being small in the vastness of beauty, 489 00:27:16,996 --> 00:27:19,116 Speaker 2: that hey, I have to be honest with you. 490 00:27:19,156 --> 00:27:19,836 Speaker 3: It reminds me of you. 491 00:27:21,596 --> 00:27:24,436 Speaker 2: It does, it really does there's something vast about your beauty, 492 00:27:25,316 --> 00:27:29,116 Speaker 2: so there is. And there's something incredible about how you 493 00:27:29,236 --> 00:27:34,276 Speaker 2: lay out a landscape of pain and possibility that's bigger 494 00:27:34,316 --> 00:27:37,676 Speaker 2: than you. So it's yeah, yeah, we can cry if 495 00:27:37,676 --> 00:27:41,036 Speaker 2: we want. Okay, we're getting we're getting questions, so no, 496 00:27:41,196 --> 00:27:45,436 Speaker 2: I know. Okay, So we've got a question from Andrea. 497 00:27:46,156 --> 00:27:48,596 Speaker 2: What's the best thing we can do to help a 498 00:27:48,636 --> 00:27:51,916 Speaker 2: friend or loved one who's in the midst of unexpected 499 00:27:51,996 --> 00:27:55,916 Speaker 2: change and struggling to get to the other side of it. 500 00:27:55,916 --> 00:27:56,796 Speaker 3: It's a great question. 501 00:27:56,996 --> 00:28:02,076 Speaker 1: That's such a good question. Don't impose your own mental 502 00:28:02,116 --> 00:28:03,516 Speaker 1: framework onto the other person. 503 00:28:04,316 --> 00:28:10,756 Speaker 2: Wa wait, wait, wait, wait, Okay, I'm going to stop 504 00:28:10,796 --> 00:28:15,996 Speaker 2: you because this is so important defined before you go forward. 505 00:28:16,276 --> 00:28:19,596 Speaker 2: What a mental framework is, Yeah, and how you might 506 00:28:19,636 --> 00:28:21,796 Speaker 2: have one and your friend who's in struggle might have one. 507 00:28:22,196 --> 00:28:26,596 Speaker 1: Yeah. We have pretty quickly an immediate vision of what 508 00:28:26,636 --> 00:28:29,436 Speaker 1: would make us feel better if we were in that 509 00:28:29,476 --> 00:28:33,716 Speaker 1: person's situation, and we like empathy to be shown to 510 00:28:33,796 --> 00:28:37,076 Speaker 1: us in a very particular way. We have a clear 511 00:28:37,156 --> 00:28:39,836 Speaker 1: understanding of what we would want, and I think a 512 00:28:39,916 --> 00:28:43,036 Speaker 1: lot of the time we don't do the cognitive work 513 00:28:43,276 --> 00:28:46,036 Speaker 1: of trying to figure out what would pacify or help 514 00:28:46,076 --> 00:28:48,996 Speaker 1: the other person think more constructively given the way that 515 00:28:49,116 --> 00:28:52,916 Speaker 1: their brain is wired, and so providing support for that 516 00:28:52,996 --> 00:28:59,476 Speaker 1: person first requires really deep, deliberate listening. My instinct too, 517 00:28:59,636 --> 00:29:01,796 Speaker 1: is like, let me just throw a bunch of solutions 518 00:29:01,836 --> 00:29:04,796 Speaker 1: your way. Oh you're the other the other fifteen other things. 519 00:29:05,196 --> 00:29:07,396 Speaker 1: And you know, we know there's different types of empathy, right, 520 00:29:07,436 --> 00:29:11,156 Speaker 1: we know there's empathic concern and cognitive empathy and emotional empathy. 521 00:29:11,196 --> 00:29:14,036 Speaker 1: You have to figure out how to step outside of 522 00:29:14,076 --> 00:29:19,436 Speaker 1: yourself and understand that this person has had a totally 523 00:29:19,436 --> 00:29:22,116 Speaker 1: different life experience than you've had. They have a different 524 00:29:22,156 --> 00:29:25,316 Speaker 1: way of responding to trauma. Potentially their needs in this 525 00:29:25,396 --> 00:29:28,556 Speaker 1: moment might even be different from their needs yesterday. So 526 00:29:28,716 --> 00:29:32,036 Speaker 1: first just listen and then try to do the diagnosis 527 00:29:32,076 --> 00:29:33,716 Speaker 1: part or the helping part. 528 00:29:34,236 --> 00:29:37,396 Speaker 3: I think that's beautiful. I had my sister. 529 00:29:37,796 --> 00:29:39,916 Speaker 2: My sister and I have this question we ask each 530 00:29:39,916 --> 00:29:44,916 Speaker 2: other because we really assume the same mental framework because 531 00:29:44,916 --> 00:29:45,636 Speaker 2: we're sisters. 532 00:29:46,796 --> 00:29:49,196 Speaker 3: And so now we just say what does love look 533 00:29:49,276 --> 00:29:49,916 Speaker 3: like right now? 534 00:29:51,756 --> 00:29:54,476 Speaker 2: And she'll say, I don't want any of your bullshit advice, 535 00:29:54,596 --> 00:29:56,676 Speaker 2: but I want you to bring me a cheesy cast 536 00:29:56,716 --> 00:29:59,476 Speaker 2: a role, leave it at the door and don't even 537 00:29:59,596 --> 00:30:03,236 Speaker 2: knock because I don't want to see your face. I'm like, Okay, gotcha, 538 00:30:03,676 --> 00:30:07,556 Speaker 2: I'm interested. Yeah, but it's almost like I never thought 539 00:30:07,556 --> 00:30:10,836 Speaker 2: about it, Untilly, you just said this so smart. I 540 00:30:10,916 --> 00:30:14,316 Speaker 2: almost struggle more with people that I'm closer to because 541 00:30:14,356 --> 00:30:18,236 Speaker 2: I assume more familiarity with mental with the mental model. 542 00:30:18,596 --> 00:30:19,516 Speaker 3: Does that make sense? Oh? 543 00:30:19,556 --> 00:30:22,116 Speaker 1: One hundred percent? And sometimes it's even worse than that. 544 00:30:22,156 --> 00:30:24,516 Speaker 1: For me, I'm prescriptive about it. I want them to 545 00:30:24,516 --> 00:30:26,756 Speaker 1: see their problem in a certain way. I'm so annoyed 546 00:30:27,356 --> 00:30:29,036 Speaker 1: when they don't see it the way I see it. 547 00:30:29,276 --> 00:30:31,436 Speaker 1: So I can be I have to be very careful 548 00:30:31,756 --> 00:30:34,996 Speaker 1: to not be sanctimonious as I'm giving them advice or 549 00:30:35,036 --> 00:30:36,516 Speaker 1: even you know, this is how you should see it, 550 00:30:36,556 --> 00:30:38,076 Speaker 1: and this is the thing that should make you feel better. 551 00:30:38,116 --> 00:30:39,276 Speaker 1: Thank you very much. I'm done. 552 00:30:39,396 --> 00:30:42,836 Speaker 2: You're up in my number one ineogram, like, not only 553 00:30:42,836 --> 00:30:44,676 Speaker 2: do I have the solution for your problem, but I'd 554 00:30:44,716 --> 00:30:48,556 Speaker 2: like to define the problem for you. Okay, this is 555 00:30:48,556 --> 00:30:53,516 Speaker 2: from Elizabeth. How do you distinguish between healthy real time 556 00:30:53,556 --> 00:30:58,356 Speaker 2: emotional processing and maladaptive rumination? Damn, Elizabeth, as I'm gonna 557 00:30:58,356 --> 00:31:01,916 Speaker 2: read it again, how do you distinguish between healthy real 558 00:31:01,956 --> 00:31:07,516 Speaker 2: time emotional processing and maladaptive rumination, and what evidence based 559 00:31:07,556 --> 00:31:12,516 Speaker 2: practices help people day On the productive side of that line, 560 00:31:13,876 --> 00:31:18,516 Speaker 2: her sign off is great, and you're already in our club. Sincerely, 561 00:31:18,756 --> 00:31:20,436 Speaker 2: a chronic intellectualizer. 562 00:31:21,716 --> 00:31:26,436 Speaker 1: Elizabeth is smart AF That's a fantastic question. And the line, 563 00:31:26,436 --> 00:31:29,396 Speaker 1: by the way, is very, very blurry. And I have 564 00:31:29,476 --> 00:31:32,436 Speaker 1: found myself in my adult life not always knowing. So 565 00:31:32,556 --> 00:31:37,076 Speaker 1: let's say you get an unexpected health diagnosis. There's some 566 00:31:37,196 --> 00:31:40,516 Speaker 1: amount of productive thinking and research that you should be doing, 567 00:31:41,236 --> 00:31:44,556 Speaker 1: and yet you'll pass some line in the sand, at 568 00:31:44,556 --> 00:31:49,436 Speaker 1: which point it becomes obsessive and it stops being productive. Unfortunately, 569 00:31:49,476 --> 00:31:51,476 Speaker 1: there isn't kind of a one size fits all for 570 00:31:51,516 --> 00:31:54,596 Speaker 1: any given circumstance other than you notice it is massively 571 00:31:55,116 --> 00:31:59,596 Speaker 1: degrading your well being. The telltale, though, in terms of 572 00:31:59,636 --> 00:32:05,596 Speaker 1: just generalized patterns, is you find yourself returning to the 573 00:32:05,716 --> 00:32:09,996 Speaker 1: same thought, exact thought loops over and over again. So 574 00:32:11,276 --> 00:32:13,636 Speaker 1: you are asking yourself a novel question. So you think 575 00:32:13,676 --> 00:32:15,916 Speaker 1: it's new. You think you're on the brink of having 576 00:32:15,996 --> 00:32:18,476 Speaker 1: this profound insight about this problem that's been plaguing you. 577 00:32:18,516 --> 00:32:20,036 Speaker 1: And if you could just crack the code on that, 578 00:32:20,276 --> 00:32:22,916 Speaker 1: then you'll feel better. If I could just get reassurance 579 00:32:23,236 --> 00:32:25,556 Speaker 1: that you know, I've been talking about these examples of 580 00:32:25,596 --> 00:32:27,316 Speaker 1: the book. It's like, if I could just figure out 581 00:32:27,356 --> 00:32:29,396 Speaker 1: why they stopped loving me, if I could just figure 582 00:32:29,396 --> 00:32:32,076 Speaker 1: out why I lost this job, if I could just 583 00:32:32,116 --> 00:32:33,916 Speaker 1: figure out all the things that could plague my family, 584 00:32:33,956 --> 00:32:35,556 Speaker 1: I'll be able to keep them safe. Right, we have 585 00:32:35,596 --> 00:32:38,516 Speaker 1: all these If I could just questions, But then what 586 00:32:38,556 --> 00:32:40,916 Speaker 1: will happen is we'll get that reassurance and then the 587 00:32:40,956 --> 00:32:42,916 Speaker 1: next day we'll wake up and will be something else 588 00:32:42,956 --> 00:32:49,316 Speaker 1: that we're seeking. And so I think that reassurance seeking 589 00:32:50,236 --> 00:32:52,876 Speaker 1: is a very good indicator that you're in the obsessive 590 00:32:52,916 --> 00:32:56,636 Speaker 1: space when you don't feel calm in the face of 591 00:32:56,676 --> 00:32:59,436 Speaker 1: really good evidence, because you almost resistant and it's not enough. 592 00:32:59,476 --> 00:33:02,436 Speaker 1: It's not enough, it's not enough. I remember I was 593 00:33:02,476 --> 00:33:05,196 Speaker 1: actually just talking this morning. I did CNN with boll 594 00:33:05,276 --> 00:33:09,836 Speaker 1: Flizer and Pam and Pamela was like, I had this 595 00:33:09,916 --> 00:33:13,476 Speaker 1: OCD postpartum where I just kept needing to know if 596 00:33:13,476 --> 00:33:17,116 Speaker 1: my baby was alive, Like every second I was worried 597 00:33:17,116 --> 00:33:19,036 Speaker 1: that like maybe like I needed to check on the 598 00:33:19,036 --> 00:33:21,916 Speaker 1: health of my baby, and that is that OCD space 599 00:33:21,916 --> 00:33:24,556 Speaker 1: where there's no amount of reassurance that feels acceptable. 600 00:33:26,316 --> 00:33:28,036 Speaker 2: It reminds me, and you know, I have twenty eight 601 00:33:28,076 --> 00:33:30,236 Speaker 2: years of sobriety. It reminds me of something that I 602 00:33:30,356 --> 00:33:33,636 Speaker 2: learned in AA very early on, as saying you can 603 00:33:33,676 --> 00:33:37,876 Speaker 2: never get enough of what you don't need. And it's 604 00:33:37,916 --> 00:33:40,996 Speaker 2: almost like it's for me. I never thought about to 605 00:33:41,036 --> 00:33:44,956 Speaker 2: this split second when you were defining it that one 606 00:33:44,996 --> 00:33:49,836 Speaker 2: of the lines for me might be with rumination. Is 607 00:33:49,836 --> 00:33:54,516 Speaker 2: it healthy thinking and intellectualizing or is it rumination? Is 608 00:33:54,556 --> 00:33:57,076 Speaker 2: it something that I can never get enough of? And 609 00:33:57,116 --> 00:33:59,636 Speaker 2: it's driving me deeper and deeper in this whole, like 610 00:33:59,676 --> 00:34:00,996 Speaker 2: the focus in the hole. 611 00:34:00,996 --> 00:34:04,196 Speaker 1: Because the opposite of rumination is actually productive critical thinking. 612 00:34:04,676 --> 00:34:06,636 Speaker 1: And so one thing I want to reassure Elizabeth about 613 00:34:06,676 --> 00:34:09,676 Speaker 1: is that I share a lot of stories on I 614 00:34:09,716 --> 00:34:15,476 Speaker 1: share a lot of strategies. It's really important for people 615 00:34:15,596 --> 00:34:21,236 Speaker 1: to pay attention to the emotions they're feeling in their 616 00:34:21,236 --> 00:34:25,276 Speaker 1: body when they're having these thoughts. When you're having like calm, 617 00:34:25,316 --> 00:34:29,076 Speaker 1: deliberate thinking, you feel a certain way when you're having 618 00:34:29,556 --> 00:34:33,916 Speaker 1: anxiety driven like obsessive. If I don't find this out, 619 00:34:33,996 --> 00:34:36,956 Speaker 1: my life is going to crumble. That's usually a sign 620 00:34:37,036 --> 00:34:38,716 Speaker 1: that you're on the wrong side of it. 621 00:34:39,356 --> 00:34:42,596 Speaker 2: Helpful, Okay, Last question, I can't believe we're out of time, 622 00:34:42,636 --> 00:34:44,276 Speaker 2: like this is a nuts. 623 00:34:45,676 --> 00:34:45,956 Speaker 3: Okay. 624 00:34:46,036 --> 00:34:50,876 Speaker 2: Last questions from Beverly. What was the biggest surprise you 625 00:34:51,076 --> 00:34:53,676 Speaker 2: encountered during your research and your writing journey. 626 00:34:54,196 --> 00:34:54,996 Speaker 3: I love that question. 627 00:34:55,236 --> 00:35:00,356 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. You know it's interesting. I'm deeply optimistic 628 00:35:00,436 --> 00:35:02,956 Speaker 1: about humans, so I tend to see the good in people, 629 00:35:02,956 --> 00:35:04,636 Speaker 1: and I tend to assume the best in people, which 630 00:35:04,676 --> 00:35:08,156 Speaker 1: I'm really glad about. But I also don't believe the 631 00:35:08,236 --> 00:35:10,276 Speaker 1: universe has my bad in any way at all. And 632 00:35:10,316 --> 00:35:13,116 Speaker 1: I don't really have strong religious or spiritual leanings, and 633 00:35:13,156 --> 00:35:18,236 Speaker 1: so there's no safe landing. I have like safety net 634 00:35:18,236 --> 00:35:20,476 Speaker 1: that I fall into when a really shitty thing happens 635 00:35:20,516 --> 00:35:26,356 Speaker 1: in my life, and that is hard. And for that reason, 636 00:35:26,876 --> 00:35:32,036 Speaker 1: I am very skeptical. When I hear someone say something like, oh, 637 00:35:32,076 --> 00:35:35,236 Speaker 1: there's a silver lining to like a negative change, I'm like, really, 638 00:35:35,676 --> 00:35:37,396 Speaker 1: is that just something you told yourself to make yourself 639 00:35:37,396 --> 00:35:39,876 Speaker 1: feel better about it? Like I often say, I'm allergic 640 00:35:39,876 --> 00:35:44,836 Speaker 1: to two things, soy and platitudes, because there can't handle 641 00:35:44,876 --> 00:35:49,196 Speaker 1: either one and so one thing I was shocked to 642 00:35:49,316 --> 00:35:55,436 Speaker 1: discover through writing this book was how grateful people who 643 00:35:55,436 --> 00:35:59,836 Speaker 1: had been through harrowing change were about who they became 644 00:35:59,916 --> 00:36:03,396 Speaker 1: on the other side. They would never have willed their 645 00:36:03,476 --> 00:36:05,316 Speaker 1: change to happen again. Who would Why would you ever 646 00:36:05,316 --> 00:36:10,436 Speaker 1: invite illness or loss or heartbreak into your life? But 647 00:36:10,516 --> 00:36:14,236 Speaker 1: they felt that they had emerged transformed, that the change 648 00:36:14,236 --> 00:36:17,596 Speaker 1: had affected them, had transformed them, had left lasting change 649 00:36:17,596 --> 00:36:22,436 Speaker 1: within them in ways that unlocked new found mental freedom 650 00:36:23,076 --> 00:36:27,356 Speaker 1: and confidence and new capabilities, a renewed relationship with a 651 00:36:27,916 --> 00:36:31,796 Speaker 1: family history that was troubled, just a new way of 652 00:36:31,836 --> 00:36:36,996 Speaker 1: seeing themselves in the world around them. And I was 653 00:36:37,116 --> 00:36:40,076 Speaker 1: so moved by this because I just didn't know there 654 00:36:40,156 --> 00:36:44,156 Speaker 1: was going to be some element of redemption in all 655 00:36:44,196 --> 00:36:47,476 Speaker 1: of these people's stories, and then I had to experience 656 00:36:47,516 --> 00:36:51,236 Speaker 1: it for myself, and that was the best proof. Like 657 00:36:51,276 --> 00:36:54,036 Speaker 1: I was still a little skeptical until all of a sudden, 658 00:36:54,036 --> 00:36:57,676 Speaker 1: I realized that I was transforming, going through my own change, 659 00:36:57,676 --> 00:37:02,236 Speaker 1: which I detail in the final chapter. And I realized, Brene, 660 00:37:02,236 --> 00:37:03,716 Speaker 1: if you had asked me on the night member when 661 00:37:03,756 --> 00:37:05,476 Speaker 1: Jimmy came in the room, if you had asked me 662 00:37:05,516 --> 00:37:09,476 Speaker 1: on that night. Will you ever find true happiness again? 663 00:37:09,636 --> 00:37:12,756 Speaker 1: I would have said no. Is there anything good that's 664 00:37:12,756 --> 00:37:14,116 Speaker 1: going to come of this? I would have said no. 665 00:37:14,636 --> 00:37:18,516 Speaker 1: Will you ever feel whole not having children? I would 666 00:37:18,516 --> 00:37:22,236 Speaker 1: have said no, And yet here I am. It's going 667 00:37:22,276 --> 00:37:26,396 Speaker 1: to make feel little emotional. Three years later, I am 668 00:37:27,116 --> 00:37:30,436 Speaker 1: the happiest that I've ever been. I'm the most hopeful, 669 00:37:30,916 --> 00:37:32,916 Speaker 1: I'm the most whole. I've had to do a lot 670 00:37:32,916 --> 00:37:36,116 Speaker 1: of work kind of unpacking why I'd anchored so much 671 00:37:36,116 --> 00:37:37,996 Speaker 1: of my self worth to motherhood. That was a whole 672 00:37:37,996 --> 00:37:40,516 Speaker 1: cultural like, oh my god, I need to challenge the 673 00:37:40,516 --> 00:37:43,516 Speaker 1: societal norms and why is society so cruel towards child 674 00:37:43,596 --> 00:37:46,716 Speaker 1: free women? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But I 675 00:37:46,916 --> 00:37:51,316 Speaker 1: felt myself developed new values and perspectives and abilities, and 676 00:37:51,956 --> 00:37:54,716 Speaker 1: it was such a beautiful process that was unfolding within 677 00:37:54,756 --> 00:37:59,836 Speaker 1: me subconsciously. And I just like I'm beaming because I 678 00:37:59,876 --> 00:38:01,356 Speaker 1: it was like it was one thing to see it 679 00:38:01,396 --> 00:38:02,996 Speaker 1: and all the people I was writing about, but then 680 00:38:02,996 --> 00:38:04,716 Speaker 1: I just didn't expect to see it in myself. 681 00:38:06,956 --> 00:38:08,756 Speaker 3: I mean, this. 682 00:38:10,476 --> 00:38:12,956 Speaker 2: Takes me to a line that you wrote in your preface. 683 00:38:13,476 --> 00:38:18,276 Speaker 2: I just highlighted this. I made a post it note 684 00:38:18,276 --> 00:38:20,436 Speaker 2: that had it. I wrote a quote and I hung 685 00:38:20,436 --> 00:38:24,036 Speaker 2: it in my study. This is what you write? Can 686 00:38:24,076 --> 00:38:27,956 Speaker 2: I quote you to you please? A negative change can 687 00:38:28,076 --> 00:38:31,756 Speaker 2: feel like an apocalypse, as if the world we knew 688 00:38:32,396 --> 00:38:36,796 Speaker 2: has now been destroyed. But apocalypse comes from the Greek 689 00:38:36,836 --> 00:38:43,596 Speaker 2: word apocalypsis, which actually means revelation. This etymology is instructive. 690 00:38:43,956 --> 00:38:47,956 Speaker 2: Change can upend us, but it can also reveal things 691 00:38:47,996 --> 00:38:50,556 Speaker 2: to us. What if we saw the hardest moments in 692 00:38:50,556 --> 00:38:53,756 Speaker 2: our lives is a chance to reimagine ourselves rather than 693 00:38:54,116 --> 00:38:58,276 Speaker 2: just something to endure. What potential change could be could 694 00:38:58,276 --> 00:39:02,076 Speaker 2: be unlocked within us. In going on this journey with others, 695 00:39:02,156 --> 00:39:04,516 Speaker 2: I've become far more curious about who I can be 696 00:39:04,716 --> 00:39:07,116 Speaker 2: on the other side of change. I hope that after 697 00:39:07,156 --> 00:39:09,916 Speaker 2: reading this book you'll come to feel the same way. 698 00:39:11,276 --> 00:39:12,476 Speaker 2: I think you've done that for us. 699 00:39:13,036 --> 00:39:16,556 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Thank you, Brenee. I so appreciate 700 00:39:16,876 --> 00:39:21,156 Speaker 1: you blessing this book with breneis and I'm was so 701 00:39:21,276 --> 00:39:24,996 Speaker 1: thoughtfully read it and it really moves my heart. How 702 00:39:24,996 --> 00:39:30,076 Speaker 1: many people signed up to join this conversation, It's okay, 703 00:39:30,116 --> 00:39:32,316 Speaker 1: of ninety eight percent of you signed up because Brene's 704 00:39:32,396 --> 00:39:34,356 Speaker 1: name is on the flyer. I'm not taking it personally, 705 00:39:34,396 --> 00:39:38,036 Speaker 1: I'm really not, but no, truly, I am so moved 706 00:39:38,076 --> 00:39:40,076 Speaker 1: by the passion you have for the topic and for 707 00:39:40,116 --> 00:39:42,236 Speaker 1: the work, and I'm just so happy that we could 708 00:39:42,236 --> 00:39:44,556 Speaker 1: all be together on this Monday night. So thank you. 709 00:39:45,556 --> 00:39:47,476 Speaker 2: I love this and I just want to say that 710 00:39:48,196 --> 00:39:50,516 Speaker 2: one of the things I've taken away and my final thing, 711 00:39:50,796 --> 00:39:54,716 Speaker 2: is that there have been things in my life that 712 00:39:55,356 --> 00:39:58,236 Speaker 2: were unexpected, and there's also been a world that I 713 00:39:58,276 --> 00:39:59,996 Speaker 2: live in right now that is not the world that 714 00:40:00,036 --> 00:40:04,036 Speaker 2: I expected. And I have found your lessons here as 715 00:40:04,156 --> 00:40:07,996 Speaker 2: valuable in the macro negotiations of life, a life that 716 00:40:08,076 --> 00:40:10,516 Speaker 2: I didn't in a world that I didn't have in 717 00:40:10,556 --> 00:40:14,236 Speaker 2: my bingo card, as much as the personal. So you're 718 00:40:14,276 --> 00:40:17,396 Speaker 2: making us better and I think I think of you 719 00:40:17,436 --> 00:40:18,516 Speaker 2: what I think of moral beauty. 720 00:40:18,556 --> 00:40:43,196 Speaker 1: So thank you, Hey, thanks so much for listening. If 721 00:40:43,236 --> 00:40:45,996 Speaker 1: you're curious about the other side of Change, you can 722 00:40:46,036 --> 00:40:47,756 Speaker 1: pick up a copy at the link in the show 723 00:40:47,796 --> 00:40:51,076 Speaker 1: notes or wherever you buy books. And if you're looking 724 00:40:51,116 --> 00:40:53,756 Speaker 1: for more Brenee on a Slight Change of Plans, you're 725 00:40:53,796 --> 00:40:56,276 Speaker 1: in luck. Brenee was on the show a couple of 726 00:40:56,316 --> 00:40:59,956 Speaker 1: seasons ago for a conversation about identity and how we 727 00:40:59,996 --> 00:41:03,076 Speaker 1: can find ourselves picking up and holding on to different 728 00:41:03,076 --> 00:41:06,036 Speaker 1: ones over the course of our lives. You'll find a 729 00:41:06,076 --> 00:41:08,956 Speaker 1: link to that episode in the show notes as well. 730 00:41:09,196 --> 00:41:11,476 Speaker 1: Back in a week with another episode of A Slight 731 00:41:11,596 --> 00:41:23,876 Speaker 1: Change of Plans. I'll see you then. A Slight Change 732 00:41:23,876 --> 00:41:27,156 Speaker 1: of Plans is created, written, and executive produced by me 733 00:41:27,356 --> 00:41:31,996 Speaker 1: Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes our showrunner Alexander Garatin, 734 00:41:32,356 --> 00:41:36,556 Speaker 1: our editor Daphne Chen, our lead producer Megan Lubin, our 735 00:41:36,596 --> 00:41:41,196 Speaker 1: associate producer Sonya Gerwit, and our sound engineer Erica Huang. 736 00:41:41,636 --> 00:41:45,076 Speaker 1: Luis Scara wrote our delightful theme song and ginger Smith 737 00:41:45,156 --> 00:41:48,236 Speaker 1: helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is 738 00:41:48,276 --> 00:41:52,036 Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks to everyone there, 739 00:41:52,476 --> 00:42:05,476 Speaker 1: and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee.