1
00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:07,720
Speaker 1: Hi, this is Annie, and this is Bridget and this

2
00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:21,120
Speaker 1: is stuff Mom never told you. Um, And we wanted

3
00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:23,880
Speaker 1: to start out today with a trigger warning because we're

4
00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,360
Speaker 1: going to be talking about gaslighting, which is a form

5
00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,520
Speaker 1: of mental and emotional abuse. So if that is a

6
00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:33,440
Speaker 1: trigger for you, probably best that you skip this episode. Yeah,

7
00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:39,080
Speaker 1: all right, So let's start with a definition, shall we. Yeah.

8
00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:41,839
Speaker 1: I wonder if most people are familiar with it. Probably not,

9
00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,199
Speaker 1: I don't know. But when someone explained it to me,

10
00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:49,280
Speaker 1: it was like so many things fell into place, because

11
00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:51,239
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people have experienced this and

12
00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:54,400
Speaker 1: they don't realize that they have. Yeah. Sometimes giving folks

13
00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,800
Speaker 1: a name for what they are experiencing or have experienced

14
00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,240
Speaker 1: can be very liberating, can be sort of oh that's

15
00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,360
Speaker 1: what it was. Yeah, and you can start to pinpoint

16
00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:09,680
Speaker 1: the behaviors. Okay, So from Encyclopedia Britannica, gas lighting and

17
00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:14,160
Speaker 1: elaborate and insidious technique of deception and psychological manipulation, usually

18
00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:16,840
Speaker 1: practiced by a single deceiver or gas lighter on a

19
00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:20,000
Speaker 1: single victim over an extended period. Its effect is to

20
00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:23,280
Speaker 1: gradually undermine the victim's confidence in his own ability to

21
00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:27,480
Speaker 1: distinguish the truth from falsehood, right from wrong, our reality

22
00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:31,640
Speaker 1: from appearance, thereby rendering him pathologically dependent on the gas

23
00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:36,000
Speaker 1: lighter in his thinkings or feelix. Oh yeah, so the

24
00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:39,960
Speaker 1: definition you're right, it really does. And you read that definition,

25
00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:43,760
Speaker 1: it's almost impossible to not look back on your prior

26
00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,559
Speaker 1: relationships or family relationships or friendships or whatever and think, oh,

27
00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:51,240
Speaker 1: that person who treated me weird, like made me feel

28
00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:54,040
Speaker 1: really weird. And I always questioned, am I okay? Am

29
00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,160
Speaker 1: I crazy? Am I over sensitive? Am I blowing up

30
00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:59,840
Speaker 1: at nothing? You know, that person who filled you with

31
00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,320
Speaker 1: self doubt? It's easy to look back and say, oh,

32
00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,160
Speaker 1: that's what was happening. Yeah, exactly, And you touched on

33
00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:11,240
Speaker 1: a lot of the common phrases you might hear um.

34
00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:12,919
Speaker 1: And for me, when I learned what this is, there's

35
00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,000
Speaker 1: someone of my family who's really good at this, and

36
00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:18,720
Speaker 1: I like, once I've learned what it is, now when

37
00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:22,160
Speaker 1: when it comes up, I'm able to like say, nope, nope,

38
00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,760
Speaker 1: I'm being perfectly reasonable and how I'm behaving, you can't

39
00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,120
Speaker 1: just dismiss me. So the goal of gas lighting is

40
00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,600
Speaker 1: to make you doubt your own ability to perceive reality.

41
00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,160
Speaker 1: And some common phrases that you might hear, um, are

42
00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,120
Speaker 1: you sure you're remembering that correctly? You know you have

43
00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,079
Speaker 1: a bad memory. Um, you're making things up again. You're

44
00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,399
Speaker 1: too sensitive, Like you said, bridget Um, you'll never find

45
00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:46,800
Speaker 1: someone as good as me. It's all on your head.

46
00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:49,680
Speaker 1: It slowly chips away at the target self esteem. And

47
00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:54,160
Speaker 1: it's so so, so so effective, so effective that it's

48
00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,920
Speaker 1: a frequent tool of dictators and colt leaders. Oh that

49
00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,239
Speaker 1: actually sounds familiar to me, does it? But there actually

50
00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:03,919
Speaker 1: might be someone who is a who you might think

51
00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,360
Speaker 1: of as a bit of a dictator, who is doing that. Now,

52
00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:10,200
Speaker 1: don't any names, but well we might say some names later.

53
00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,320
Speaker 1: Another part of this is the illusory truth effect, and

54
00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:16,840
Speaker 1: that's when someone believes something mostly because they've heard it

55
00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,760
Speaker 1: so much before. This is really problematic and a lot

56
00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,560
Speaker 1: of things, but it comes up in politics. If you

57
00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:25,720
Speaker 1: just hear something over and over, you start to believe it,

58
00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,079
Speaker 1: even if you've only heard it, like from one person

59
00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,240
Speaker 1: saying it over and over again. So gas lighting touches

60
00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:35,240
Speaker 1: on that because if someone repeatedly tells you, oh, you're

61
00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,760
Speaker 1: you're overacting, you're being sensitive, over time, you're going to

62
00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:40,840
Speaker 1: start to think in your own head, like, I guess

63
00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,480
Speaker 1: I'm over reacting and being sensitive. And this is different

64
00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:46,760
Speaker 1: than the occasional like differences in memory or denials or

65
00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,920
Speaker 1: blackout drunk behavior. Um, everyday gas lighting as it's called.

66
00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,480
Speaker 1: This could be human error or defensiveness, but that doesn't

67
00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:58,760
Speaker 1: mean it isn't harmful. But today we're gonna mostly focus

68
00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:03,840
Speaker 1: on deliberate use of gaslighting. Yeah, it's funny you mentioned

69
00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,920
Speaker 1: blackout drunk. Um. We have a glad of great examples

70
00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,000
Speaker 1: from pop culture. But there's well netsticks in my mind,

71
00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:10,720
Speaker 1: which is this book Girl on a Train. Have you

72
00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:15,000
Speaker 1: ever read it? Um, I've been pretty open about my

73
00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:19,520
Speaker 1: love of drink the show like when you when you're

74
00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,760
Speaker 1: someone who drinks or that you have use substances that

75
00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,640
Speaker 1: like mess with your memory. That can be its own

76
00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,359
Speaker 1: kind of weird. Um. I don't say gas lighting, but

77
00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:31,320
Speaker 1: it is a bit where you you kind of are

78
00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:33,880
Speaker 1: dependent on others around you to fill in like oh,

79
00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:35,560
Speaker 1: what did I do last night or what happened last

80
00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:39,480
Speaker 1: night or whatever? Um, and how sort of that can

81
00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,880
Speaker 1: leave you kind of vulnerable for that kind of behavior

82
00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:47,960
Speaker 1: sometimes gaslighting. A gaslighter will use that to their advantage

83
00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:52,000
Speaker 1: or to like further because they want to control the

84
00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,560
Speaker 1: other person. So if you're dependent on a substance, then

85
00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:59,640
Speaker 1: they might like both encourage you to get more addicted

86
00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,920
Speaker 1: and then like blame you for it, and also like, yeah,

87
00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,279
Speaker 1: control the narrative of what what did you do? And

88
00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,200
Speaker 1: girl on the Train is a great example of that

89
00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:14,600
Speaker 1: or that's pretty much the whole plot spoil Yeah, oh yeah,

90
00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:16,359
Speaker 1: he hasn't been out for a couple for a while.

91
00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:22,280
Speaker 1: Oh boy, he was like um. The name gas lighting

92
00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:25,480
Speaker 1: comes from a ninety nine British stage play called Gaslight,

93
00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,240
Speaker 1: which was later produced into two films, the UK's nineteen

94
00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:30,320
Speaker 1: forty gas Light and in nineteen forty four in the

95
00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,880
Speaker 1: US under the same name, starring Ingrid Bergman, and the

96
00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:35,880
Speaker 1: plot of the movie is about an abusive husband doing

97
00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:39,520
Speaker 1: his best to convince his wife she's losing her mind. Um.

98
00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,599
Speaker 1: He does so by convincing her she's a kleptomaniac and

99
00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:44,839
Speaker 1: the sound she's hearing in the dimming of the gas lights,

100
00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:47,960
Speaker 1: she is seeing her all in her head, so she

101
00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,479
Speaker 1: won't know what the real truth is that her husband,

102
00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:56,400
Speaker 1: who was married to Ingrid Berms characters aunt, is trying

103
00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:00,640
Speaker 1: to find the family's lost jewels that's hidden in the house. Um.

104
00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:02,600
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and he murdered the aunt by the way

105
00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,960
Speaker 1: for the jewels. Yeah, no, biggie. But it just goes

106
00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,000
Speaker 1: to show how it's all about controlling her ability to

107
00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,800
Speaker 1: perceive things realistically, and that he uses that as a

108
00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:16,640
Speaker 1: way to conceal his own bad behavior. Yeah, exactly. It's

109
00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:21,400
Speaker 1: you're flipping it around too. Usually, um, when it's in relationships,

110
00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:25,680
Speaker 1: since it's to hide like cheating or if you've got

111
00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,719
Speaker 1: like a gambling addiction and you want to turn, you

112
00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,279
Speaker 1: want to flip the script around and put it on

113
00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:37,200
Speaker 1: the other person. So yeah, this movie pretty much encapsulates it,

114
00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,600
Speaker 1: and it did become the term she finally realizes at

115
00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,200
Speaker 1: the end. She clings to the fact like these gas

116
00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,800
Speaker 1: lights are dimming, these glass lights are dimming. And the

117
00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:50,200
Speaker 1: only way she like realizes that, yes, they are dimming,

118
00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,160
Speaker 1: she is not losing her mind is when the police

119
00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:55,360
Speaker 1: show up at the end and they say, well, the

120
00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:59,320
Speaker 1: guess it's so dim It was right the whole time, Yeah,

121
00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,880
Speaker 1: not crazy, Yeah, which is why, Um, an important thing

122
00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:07,240
Speaker 1: is to have like a support group or people outside

123
00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:11,240
Speaker 1: of that relationship that can verify the truth for you. Yeah.

124
00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:15,120
Speaker 1: I had a friend who had a major gas lighter

125
00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,680
Speaker 1: in her life, and one of the ways that the

126
00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:21,560
Speaker 1: person used gaslighting was by trying to make her think

127
00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,320
Speaker 1: her her own friends like her, the outside sources that

128
00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,600
Speaker 1: you were saying, trying to break down the trust there.

129
00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,120
Speaker 1: And so this person would say things to her like,

130
00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:33,480
Speaker 1: you know, well, your friend agree. I talked to your

131
00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:35,200
Speaker 1: friend and they agree with me, And it's like, no,

132
00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,480
Speaker 1: they didn't. That's a made up thing. But by if

133
00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,600
Speaker 1: you say that enough, you start to not trust the

134
00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:43,720
Speaker 1: people that you look at as your as your support system,

135
00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,240
Speaker 1: and your trust system your outside people. And so I

136
00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:48,160
Speaker 1: really was able to see that as a tactic of

137
00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,160
Speaker 1: isolating her, making her feel like they were the only

138
00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:54,080
Speaker 1: person that would tell her the truth and be real

139
00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:55,800
Speaker 1: with her, and they were all that she had, and

140
00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:57,400
Speaker 1: that the people that she grew up with that she

141
00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,480
Speaker 1: considered like her sisters, like her support we are actually

142
00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:04,280
Speaker 1: you know, talking about her and you know I thought

143
00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,520
Speaker 1: she was being crazy. Yeah, And that is a hallmark

144
00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,240
Speaker 1: of a gas lighter. They will try to bring in

145
00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,080
Speaker 1: your support group and either like break down the trust

146
00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,160
Speaker 1: with them or even say like, well, Annie agrees with me,

147
00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:18,680
Speaker 1: and even though I don't like they're just gonna group

148
00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:24,000
Speaker 1: use me two further their their control in the relationship,

149
00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,960
Speaker 1: their power and relationship. And since UM Gaslight the movie

150
00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:31,400
Speaker 1: came out, there's now so many examples of this in media,

151
00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,319
Speaker 1: and one of the biggest known recent ones that maybe

152
00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,720
Speaker 1: people who watched it didn't pinpoint is Jessica Jones. The

153
00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,679
Speaker 1: main villain in that kill Grave is gaslighting her all

154
00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,640
Speaker 1: the time. He's telling her without like because he does

155
00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,760
Speaker 1: have special powers, but without using them. He's telling her like,

156
00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:50,240
Speaker 1: this is what happened. You were remembering things wrong. I

157
00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,600
Speaker 1: know it happened. You don't know what happened. And she

158
00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:56,600
Speaker 1: even uses the technique that, um, some survivors are are

159
00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,120
Speaker 1: is helpful for some survivors to come back gas lighting,

160
00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:02,920
Speaker 1: where she sights the names of her old streets to

161
00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,760
Speaker 1: like reinforce her truth, to remind herself, no, this is,

162
00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,880
Speaker 1: this is I know this is it's at the gaslights

163
00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,560
Speaker 1: in Gaslights, Yeah exactly. So it's interesting, So like finding

164
00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,719
Speaker 1: something that you can cling to if you've seen, UM,

165
00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,080
Speaker 1: that's such a thing in movies, like, UM, what's that

166
00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:24,200
Speaker 1: movie that's kind of terrible and everyone loved it? Um,

167
00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:30,120
Speaker 1: could it be where they go into people's dreams. Yeah, um,

168
00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,679
Speaker 1: is that the movie where they have the thing that

169
00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:36,360
Speaker 1: you know? This is how I know? Yeah, it's interesting

170
00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,240
Speaker 1: how finding that tangible thing that you can cling to

171
00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,840
Speaker 1: that you know this, This demonstrates my ability to perceive

172
00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,319
Speaker 1: reality correctly. That seems to be a recurring thing with gaslighting,

173
00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,120
Speaker 1: and how you can combat it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Another

174
00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,000
Speaker 1: big example in movies that I ran into a lot

175
00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:55,880
Speaker 1: was the Truman show. Oh yeah, the Changeling, which is

176
00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:57,760
Speaker 1: based on a true story. Have you seen that one,

177
00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:02,199
Speaker 1: Bridget It sounds familiar? Have I seen it? It's about um,

178
00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,200
Speaker 1: it's about Angelina Jolie. I think it's a it's a

179
00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,760
Speaker 1: kind of a period piece. Maybe I'm probably way off,

180
00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:12,200
Speaker 1: but in this century period piece. Um, And she loses

181
00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:16,880
Speaker 1: her child and like weeks passed and the police are like, hey,

182
00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:18,440
Speaker 1: we found your kid, and she's like, that is not

183
00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:20,840
Speaker 1: my kid, Like, nope, it really is that your kid.

184
00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:22,720
Speaker 1: I can't believe you can't remember him. You must be

185
00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,160
Speaker 1: a terrible mom. And she's just like everyone's telling me

186
00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:27,600
Speaker 1: this is my kid. I know, this is not my kid.

187
00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,040
Speaker 1: He doesn't fit in like the same clothes. But the

188
00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:34,720
Speaker 1: police go through epic links to convince her that that

189
00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:36,960
Speaker 1: is her kid or that she has lost her mind.

190
00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,160
Speaker 1: She ends up in insane asylument. Why did they do this,

191
00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,960
Speaker 1: I think because they were embarrassed. I know in the

192
00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,560
Speaker 1: true story that the kid died, it was like twenty

193
00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:50,920
Speaker 1: they found twenty kids in a grave or something. I

194
00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:52,880
Speaker 1: think they were trying to cover up some kind of

195
00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,160
Speaker 1: embarrassing failure on their part by gaslighting Angelia and Julie

196
00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:58,319
Speaker 1: and getting her locked in an insane asylum. As you do,

197
00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:02,200
Speaker 1: right does? Um? That's a lot like a Flight Plan,

198
00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:04,000
Speaker 1: which is a terrible movie, but I saw it in

199
00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,840
Speaker 1: the theater. Have you ever seen flight Plan? Basically flight Plan?

200
00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:09,560
Speaker 1: It's not a very good movie, but I did see

201
00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:13,520
Speaker 1: it in the theater. Um. Jodie Foster. She arrives to

202
00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,640
Speaker 1: an airport with her child, but the child is scared

203
00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:18,320
Speaker 1: to go through t s A, so she hides him,

204
00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:19,920
Speaker 1: and she hides the child, and I think it's a

205
00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,920
Speaker 1: girl under her coat. Security videos don't joke her going

206
00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:24,719
Speaker 1: in with a kid. The kid is later kidnapped, I

207
00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,920
Speaker 1: think by terrorist or something, and they basically try to

208
00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:29,840
Speaker 1: convince her. They're like, you didn't have a kid she's

209
00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:31,920
Speaker 1: like what, and so, of course, because she's a woman,

210
00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,880
Speaker 1: she thinks I'm crazy, you know, I'm It's funny how

211
00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:39,720
Speaker 1: the victims of gas lighting. It's not, it's not only women,

212
00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,360
Speaker 1: but it's interesting how, particularly in pop culture, when it

213
00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:44,960
Speaker 1: is women, women are so quick to beat to think

214
00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:48,280
Speaker 1: I'm quote unquote crazy, like something's wrong with me, and like,

215
00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:52,000
Speaker 1: you're right, my perception of reality is warped. I wonder

216
00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,920
Speaker 1: if that's a gendered thing. Yeah, I I would say so,

217
00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:57,720
Speaker 1: And we are going to touch on that a little

218
00:11:57,720 --> 00:11:59,440
Speaker 1: bit more later. But I do think women are more

219
00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:04,280
Speaker 1: likely to be dismissed as crazy or hormonal is at

220
00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:06,800
Speaker 1: that time of the month for you, like yeah, blaming

221
00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:10,320
Speaker 1: it on on those types of things. And I think

222
00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,640
Speaker 1: that women largely have internalized that and maybe are more

223
00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:18,320
Speaker 1: quick to blame those types of things as well, especially

224
00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:20,760
Speaker 1: like that, Um, I think about nagging all the time,

225
00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,440
Speaker 1: that like you're nagging wife, and I think a lot

226
00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:26,440
Speaker 1: a lot of women are afraid to have that label

227
00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,560
Speaker 1: and afraid of that label in general. And so even

228
00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,480
Speaker 1: if this is I've mentioned before my thirty page on

229
00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:36,600
Speaker 1: the dishes, my thirty page dishes, Even if you're totally

230
00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:41,560
Speaker 1: right to ask for help, and it comes off as nagging.

231
00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:45,040
Speaker 1: I think that. Yeah, that's just a term that has

232
00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:49,200
Speaker 1: been very useful for getting out of doing the dishes,

233
00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:54,560
Speaker 1: among other things. We had a whole episode on Annie's

234
00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:59,120
Speaker 1: opinion dishes that would be like a ten part many

235
00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:06,000
Speaker 1: thories and me just mostly dissolving into and another thing. Um.

236
00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:08,200
Speaker 1: The one more thing I want to touch on in

237
00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,640
Speaker 1: the movie verse of gas lighting is UM. A lot

238
00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:14,920
Speaker 1: of horror movies, like The Shining, Our Clockwork Orange purposefully

239
00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:20,160
Speaker 1: gaslight the audience by um making continuity errs so that

240
00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:22,400
Speaker 1: you're never quite sure, like did I see that? I

241
00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:24,760
Speaker 1: don't maybe I didn't see that. The Shining is the

242
00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,360
Speaker 1: ultimate example of that, because when you watched that movie,

243
00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:29,840
Speaker 1: at least for me, I find myself pausing and going

244
00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,080
Speaker 1: back and thinking I just saw a flash of something

245
00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:33,920
Speaker 1: very disturbing, didn't I, And then you have to go

246
00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,400
Speaker 1: back and make sure that you did in faccie it. Yeah,

247
00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:43,000
Speaker 1: it's pretty effective. Thank you for gaslighting me, Stanley Kubrick. Yeah. Conically,

248
00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,679
Speaker 1: gaslighting is classified as a type of narcissistic abuse, particularly

249
00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:50,520
Speaker 1: malignant narcissist. In this case, the narcissists uses the target

250
00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:56,000
Speaker 1: for validation and esteem while simultaneously detesting the targets of victimhood.

251
00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:01,079
Speaker 1: Gaslighting is gradual, starting out small, but eventually leading to depression, anxiety,

252
00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,319
Speaker 1: and isolation in the target, making him or her even

253
00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,559
Speaker 1: more dependent. And here are some of the hall marks

254
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,320
Speaker 1: telling outright lies. By doing so, by setting the bar

255
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,920
Speaker 1: so high with something that's like obviously a false statement,

256
00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,080
Speaker 1: the gas lighter undermines your ability to know if anything

257
00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,760
Speaker 1: else they say is true or not. A lot of

258
00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,560
Speaker 1: the lies they invoke include someone you care about, Like

259
00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,560
Speaker 1: we mentioned, um, this person agrees with me, she thinks

260
00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:30,000
Speaker 1: you're overacting to Sometimes in the survivor community, this is

261
00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,520
Speaker 1: called a flying monkey because you're kind of sicking. You're

262
00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:35,920
Speaker 1: flying monkeys on on them and sort of, you know,

263
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,120
Speaker 1: building a network of people who you will rely on

264
00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:43,680
Speaker 1: to undermine the victim's sense of reality and itself. Yeah, exactly.

265
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,280
Speaker 1: At the same time, they call people and the media

266
00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,520
Speaker 1: that call into question the reality they're feeding you liars

267
00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,320
Speaker 1: if it is in opposition to what they're telling you.

268
00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:58,360
Speaker 1: That also sounds kind of familiar denial of something they

269
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,640
Speaker 1: said are did, even if you produce proof, even in

270
00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,120
Speaker 1: the face of outright proof and once again this sets

271
00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,200
Speaker 1: you off balance. Um, it makes you question your reality,

272
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,920
Speaker 1: trivialization of your feelings. Gas lighters often attack things that

273
00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,320
Speaker 1: you care about. Their actions don't match their words. Occasionally

274
00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,000
Speaker 1: they offer you kind words, um, words of encouragement, and

275
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:18,440
Speaker 1: it's kind of reminds me of the cycle of abuse

276
00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:20,960
Speaker 1: as well, where it's like, oh, I'll never do it again,

277
00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,720
Speaker 1: I love you and all these things like I failed

278
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,360
Speaker 1: this one time. But then it's it's a cycle. And

279
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:29,760
Speaker 1: they do this to confuse you because then you're like, well,

280
00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,560
Speaker 1: they said this nice thing about me, and maybe they're

281
00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:34,480
Speaker 1: not all bad. How could they be bad. He's being

282
00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:36,240
Speaker 1: so nice to me now, how could he be an

283
00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,480
Speaker 1: abusive person when he's making me feel so good in

284
00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:40,560
Speaker 1: this moment. I must have had him all wrong. I

285
00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:45,320
Speaker 1: must be sensitive. I must be misunderstanding the situation. Yeah, exactly.

286
00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,480
Speaker 1: And it further confuses you, and confusion is the best

287
00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,440
Speaker 1: friend of a gas lighter. Gas lighters often project their

288
00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,680
Speaker 1: own failings or issues. They turn it around on you,

289
00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,160
Speaker 1: so you're the wrong doer. They might act hurt that

290
00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,040
Speaker 1: you've accused them of such a thing. They dismiss she

291
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,960
Speaker 1: was crazy hormonal. How dare you say that about me?

292
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:06,680
Speaker 1: I would never do that. I mean, you must be

293
00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,560
Speaker 1: really out of your mind. You should I worry about

294
00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,560
Speaker 1: your mental health if that's that's really what you think.

295
00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,000
Speaker 1: And to extremes of When a gas lighters question here,

296
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,160
Speaker 1: she may resort to threats of physical abuse, especially if

297
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:25,720
Speaker 1: like they sense that their whole game might be up

298
00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,520
Speaker 1: and the techniques commonly deployed by gas lighters or things

299
00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:31,800
Speaker 1: like withholding. And this is when the gas lighter refuses

300
00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,600
Speaker 1: to listen to share emotions, feigns a lack of interest

301
00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,840
Speaker 1: or understanding. Costic example of this is I'm not listening

302
00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,440
Speaker 1: to this again tonight, countering or questioning the target's reality.

303
00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:43,800
Speaker 1: You're wrong about that last time? You have an over

304
00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,120
Speaker 1: active imagination. You never believed in me. I feel like

305
00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:51,880
Speaker 1: that one is probably really common in relationships with therese infidelity,

306
00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,880
Speaker 1: saying you know, oh you're you're so paranoid, you're so

307
00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:59,000
Speaker 1: jealousy that was I've had people in my life use

308
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,840
Speaker 1: that one, you know, obscured cheating again, if you say

309
00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:04,560
Speaker 1: it over and over and over again, and you say

310
00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,000
Speaker 1: you're really jealous, You're really jealous, you really jealous over

311
00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,160
Speaker 1: and over and over again. You know, you're getting upset

312
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,440
Speaker 1: about nothing. You're inventing things to be upset about because

313
00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:13,840
Speaker 1: you're jealous and paranoid, even if you're not a jealous person,

314
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,280
Speaker 1: like I'm not a very jealous person, but someone saying

315
00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:18,720
Speaker 1: it over and over and over again. By the end,

316
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,159
Speaker 1: I'm apologizing for this person who was like cheating on

317
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,320
Speaker 1: me because I'm apologizing like, oh, I'm I'm just mean

318
00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:26,800
Speaker 1: being I'm you know how you know me, I'm just

319
00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,520
Speaker 1: so jealous by the end of like, wait, sepack, I'm

320
00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:33,159
Speaker 1: not actually jealous and actually you are deceiving me. But

321
00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:37,840
Speaker 1: it's interesting how repeating those countering claims over and over

322
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,720
Speaker 1: again can really you can really internalize them. Yeah, I've

323
00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,480
Speaker 1: definitely seen that play out in a friend's relationship where

324
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,560
Speaker 1: he would call her jealous all the time, and he

325
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:49,520
Speaker 1: would even go so far as to be like, well,

326
00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,239
Speaker 1: I saw you hanging out with this one dude like

327
00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,760
Speaker 1: one time, like maybe you're the one. Yeah, maybe I

328
00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,199
Speaker 1: should be looking into what you're doing. It's it's pretty insidious.

329
00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:01,960
Speaker 1: There's black and diverting, which is flipping the conversation around

330
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,320
Speaker 1: to question the target. So, yeah, you're hurting me on

331
00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:09,080
Speaker 1: purpose or stop nagging me, trivializing I'm dismissing the thoughts

332
00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:11,840
Speaker 1: or feelings in the gas of the target of the gaslighting,

333
00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,480
Speaker 1: and denial, I don't have to take this, you're making

334
00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:16,960
Speaker 1: this up. Stuff like that. As we've kind of touched on,

335
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,119
Speaker 1: it can take place in all sorts of relationships, in

336
00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:22,240
Speaker 1: the workplace, within a family with a significant other. A

337
00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:24,680
Speaker 1: lot of times it's a partner trying to hide a relationship.

338
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,280
Speaker 1: It can take place in a lot of different settings,

339
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:29,639
Speaker 1: and it seems like something that's kind of fairly common.

340
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:33,080
Speaker 1: According to the National Domestic Violence Hotline, around eighty percent

341
00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,080
Speaker 1: of people that call in have experienced some type of

342
00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,840
Speaker 1: mental health coercion. Some of the symptoms of gas lighting

343
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,160
Speaker 1: that they list on their site include constant second guessing yourself,

344
00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,160
Speaker 1: feelings of confusion, asking yourself if you're being too sensitive

345
00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,320
Speaker 1: multiple times a day, constantly apologizing to your gas lighter,

346
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,200
Speaker 1: constantly excusing a gaslighter's behavior, or withholding information from friends

347
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:54,560
Speaker 1: you won't have to make excuses. A feeling like you

348
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:57,399
Speaker 1: can't quite articulate that something is wrong, telling lies to

349
00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,520
Speaker 1: avoid getting put down, or having the rug pulled from

350
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:03,000
Speaker 1: underneath you having a hard time making decisions, feeling that

351
00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,160
Speaker 1: you used to be a more confident and relaxed person,

352
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:07,919
Speaker 1: feeling like you can't do anything right, and feeling like

353
00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,480
Speaker 1: you're constantly letting your partner down. But when I was

354
00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:12,040
Speaker 1: on this website, I saw at the top I had

355
00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,520
Speaker 1: instructions for a quick exiting of the website, not being

356
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:19,600
Speaker 1: able to return by using the back button, so that

357
00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:23,320
Speaker 1: if someone came up behind you, that makes me that's

358
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,680
Speaker 1: very real. Yeah, that broke my heart. So gas lighting

359
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:28,880
Speaker 1: has a really long history, and we're going to talk

360
00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,000
Speaker 1: about it after a quick break for a word from

361
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:45,400
Speaker 1: re sponsor, and we're back, Thank you sponsor. Okay, So

362
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,880
Speaker 1: gas lighting probably honestly has been taking place as long

363
00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,119
Speaker 1: as people have had relationships with each other and have

364
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,960
Speaker 1: trying to manipulate each other. But one example I found

365
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,679
Speaker 1: of it that I loved was Hans Christian Anderson The

366
00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,400
Speaker 1: Emperor's New Clothes And if you don't remember or only

367
00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,080
Speaker 1: have vague memories of the Disney movie, this fairy tale

368
00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:06,480
Speaker 1: revolves around an emperor who loved his clothes to the

369
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,000
Speaker 1: point he spent all of his money on them, and

370
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,240
Speaker 1: two swindlers came to town one day claiming that they

371
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,800
Speaker 1: made fabrics more wonderful than anything you've ever seen, and

372
00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,000
Speaker 1: if you couldn't see those fabrics, it meant you shouldn't

373
00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,280
Speaker 1: have your job because you were incompetent. And of course

374
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,280
Speaker 1: the emperor wanted them because by putting him on, he

375
00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,040
Speaker 1: not only figure out like who thought he was unfit

376
00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,080
Speaker 1: for duty, but he doesn't be looking super super fly,

377
00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:31,679
Speaker 1: So he paid the swindlers a huge amount of cash

378
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,879
Speaker 1: for some new clothes with the most magnificent fabric, and

379
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,440
Speaker 1: the swindler set up two big looms and got to

380
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:42,840
Speaker 1: weaving with invisible read non existent thread um and the

381
00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:44,919
Speaker 1: fabric wanted to ask how they were doing it, he

382
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,400
Speaker 1: didn't because he didn't want to appear stupid, as if

383
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,320
Speaker 1: he thought himself incompetent because he couldn't see the fabric.

384
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,440
Speaker 1: And the Emperor calls the trustee honest town minister to

385
00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:55,919
Speaker 1: describe what he sees, but the minister is afraid of

386
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:57,600
Speaker 1: the same thing. He doesn't want to be called stupid

387
00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:59,520
Speaker 1: and unfit for his job, so he's like, oh wow,

388
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:01,720
Speaker 1: how be would a full look at this fabric? And

389
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,520
Speaker 1: the Emperor's like, oh boy, oh no, I can't see anything,

390
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:06,880
Speaker 1: so he calls in more officials, and the trusted officials

391
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:08,960
Speaker 1: say the same thing because they also don't want to

392
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,040
Speaker 1: appear stupid. So the Emperor pretends he can see them too,

393
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,440
Speaker 1: and the swindlers up the price. They say, we gotta

394
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,640
Speaker 1: We're gonna need more fabric, and the Emperor's advisors are like, wow,

395
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:19,800
Speaker 1: this is the most beautiful thing. You've got to wear

396
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:24,080
Speaker 1: it in your procession that's coming up. And then for okay, um,

397
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,960
Speaker 1: the swindlers finished the clothes. They held them out, describing

398
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,400
Speaker 1: them as light as the spider's web, as if you're

399
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:35,680
Speaker 1: wearing nothing. I'm sure they were very like the infer undressed,

400
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,560
Speaker 1: and they helped him put them on. They went through

401
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:43,679
Speaker 1: like a little miming thing. Everyone complimented him on the fools,

402
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:48,600
Speaker 1: and then he he did the procession completely naked, and

403
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,800
Speaker 1: everyone except the kids. The kids were like, he's he's naked,

404
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,399
Speaker 1: but all the adults were like, no, we're good at

405
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:58,440
Speaker 1: our jobs. We can see those. So that's just a um,

406
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:02,080
Speaker 1: I thought, a funny kind of that's the gas lighting

407
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:07,040
Speaker 1: on a not national but local scale. Yeah, kind of

408
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,240
Speaker 1: the same abill all these people buying in if we

409
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 1: fast forward past the play in films that we mentioned

410
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:16,320
Speaker 1: in the beginning. Um In psychologist named Edward vine Schell

411
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,520
Speaker 1: wrote an article called Some Clinical Consequences of Interjection. Gaslighting

412
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:22,920
Speaker 1: and interjection was the term he used to explain the

413
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:27,680
Speaker 1: transfer of psychic conflicts. One person externalist and projects, and

414
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 1: the other person incorporates and as simbilates. Books and self

415
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 1: help blogs about how to shut gaslighting down proliferated soon after,

416
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 1: with strategies like narrative repair that relies on a counter story,

417
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,400
Speaker 1: and the most research and articles have been about gaslighting

418
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 1: and relationships. Recently, it's gotten more sort of nationwide attention,

419
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,879
Speaker 1: society wide attention, I guess. Take this quote from shay

420
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,440
Speaker 1: m a Fete over Everyday Feminism. She writes, I believe

421
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,400
Speaker 1: that gas lighting is happening culturally and interpersonally on an

422
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,159
Speaker 1: unprecedented scale, and that this is the result of a

423
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,679
Speaker 1: societal framework where we pretend everyone is equal while trying

424
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:06,120
Speaker 1: simultaneously to preserve inequality. And that is something I definitely

425
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,920
Speaker 1: definitely feel in my experience. This is folks who say

426
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,879
Speaker 1: things like, oh, we're all equal now, the races are

427
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,879
Speaker 1: all equal, and so while me is a woman of

428
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 1: color and experiencing inequality. The nation is sort of refusing

429
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,640
Speaker 1: to agree that this is happening. And so it is interesting,

430
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:23,919
Speaker 1: and part of it is that you internalize it and

431
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,919
Speaker 1: you think, oh, I'm over sensitive, I'm making you know,

432
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 1: it's so easy to shut this down, right, like someone saying, oh,

433
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 1: you make everything about race, which people have wrote into

434
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 1: this very podcast, I thought about me, and you know,

435
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 1: it's really quite something to have people insist that we

436
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 1: are living in an equal nation, equal for along spectrums

437
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,480
Speaker 1: of gender, race, sexuality, class. It's really quite rich to

438
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,680
Speaker 1: have those people say, oh, you make everything about race,

439
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 1: when we live in a country where everything is about race, right,

440
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 1: It's quite interesting that people use that tactic, and it

441
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: is it does feel a bit like gas lighting. Oh absolutely, yeah,

442
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,199
Speaker 1: it's exactly what you said, you make everything about races.

443
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 1: It's just a way of it's similar to the boyfriend

444
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 1: telling you like you're just jealous. Like it's a way

445
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 1: to just say, nope, we're all equal here. You're the

446
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 1: ones you're still fighting about trying to stir something up.

447
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,159
Speaker 1: Shay m a Fete on Everyday Feminism. She wrote that

448
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,919
Speaker 1: a lot about that, and she wrote that minorities that

449
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: face stereotypes about mental capacity are particularly prone to gaslighting. Yeah,

450
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,400
Speaker 1: and the more widespread the term has become, the more

451
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,679
Speaker 1: deluded the meaning, and the more often it's used to

452
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 1: gaslight almost it muddies the water around rational disagreement. And

453
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,920
Speaker 1: we're talking more on a societal and cultural level now,

454
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,199
Speaker 1: although this can happen in relationships. And we'll get into

455
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 1: this after one last break for a word from our sponsor,

456
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 1: and we're back, Thank you, sponsor. And this brings us

457
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,199
Speaker 1: too far. I know bridget has been itching fun this

458
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: is I've, I've, and he's had to give me that

459
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: not yet, not yet. Look because I'm raring to go

460
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 1: on this, but all the song's gonna jump right into

461
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 1: it for it. Donald Trump a gas lighter in chief,

462
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 1: I would agree with you, bridget Um. I remember because

463
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 1: I started out just reading basically how the podcast started.

464
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 1: As I was researching that. That was the first thing

465
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:21,880
Speaker 1: I was talking about, was like signs of a gas lighter.

466
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 1: And I was like, huh huh oh, because it all

467
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 1: sounded very familiar. If you're like me, you've probably seen

468
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,400
Speaker 1: headlines in the past year, so that pretty much say

469
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 1: the same thing like Donald Trump is gaslighting America from

470
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 1: teen Vogue. The Trump campaigns were on reality made me

471
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 1: question what I saw from the Washington Post. I'm a Republican,

472
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: Why is my party gaslighting America? From Politico. So we're

473
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 1: not the only ones that made this connection. We're not

474
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 1: the only ones. And some of you might be thinking,

475
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: wait a minute, donald Trump not gaslighting the country. I've

476
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: actually seen headlines that question that that that pushed back

477
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 1: on this narrative that he that we were being gas

478
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: lighted at a national scale by our current president. As

479
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: we talked about in this episode, a hallmark of gas

480
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 1: lighting is trying to make you believe things that are

481
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:10,200
Speaker 1: not true, even when presented with proof. Just today, Donald

482
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,400
Speaker 1: Trump was presented with a video of him saying something

483
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 1: he did not say and still clings to it, right, Like,

484
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 1: Donald Trump will say things that are verifiably untrue, things

485
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: where it's like, oh, you're on video, or oh here

486
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 1: is proof, or oh we have a photo of you

487
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: doing this, and he'll say, no, I didn't do it,

488
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 1: and and it sort of becomes its own kind of

489
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 1: reality in a kind of way. This is this. This

490
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 1: is a small example, but a Kim lying about the

491
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 1: crowdside of inauguration, Kelly and Conway said, he's presenting alternative effects.

492
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: Numbers are numbers. If you say a number and the

493
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 1: different number is higher or lower, I mean, that's not

494
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 1: there's not an alternative to that. That's just how these

495
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 1: things work. Another example is that the Trump administration contends

496
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: that sixty five people died in Hurricane Maria and Puerto Rico,

497
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 1: and Harvard University came out with the study just this

498
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,400
Speaker 1: week that said, actually, that number is more like four

499
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:05,440
Speaker 1: thousand over four thousand, and his administration basically is refusing

500
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:10,200
Speaker 1: to to acknowledge these plain facts. Yes, and when they're

501
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 1: presented with the obvious proof, it becomes fake media fake news,

502
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 1: which we touched on the beginning that that is one

503
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:22,439
Speaker 1: of the hallmarks of dismissing the thing that counters your narrative. Yeah,

504
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 1: and making you feel unsettled and all kilter because you're

505
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 1: seeing this blatant proof and to be told, nope, that's wrong,

506
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,719
Speaker 1: and to make things about race again, as I always do,

507
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 1: because you know that's nothing. Um. Think about the way

508
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 1: that Trump talks about people of color in this country.

509
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 1: He'll go on TV and say things that are blatantly racist.

510
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: And then I'll say, oh, quote unquote, the blacks are

511
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 1: doing better they than they have So not only is

512
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 1: that like not he break down the numbers. That's actually

513
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 1: not a true thing in and of itself. But he

514
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 1: will get on TV and say people of color are

515
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 1: doing great under my administration while simultaneously being really racist.

516
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 1: He does the same thing with women. He'll get He'll

517
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 1: get on TV and say women are making more money

518
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 1: than they've ever made under my administration, while at the

519
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 1: same time bragging about grabbing women by their body parts. Right,

520
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: And so it is a way of saying of sort

521
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 1: of denying a kind of victimhood in a way where

522
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: we all can see that you are doing things that

523
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:27,640
Speaker 1: are not okay, but you are refusing to let that

524
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,199
Speaker 1: reality linger and in a kind of a using it

525
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,400
Speaker 1: against us. Yeah. Absolutely, And a lot of the things

526
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 1: we've been talking about do match up with the behavior

527
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 1: Trump in his cabinet. The dimssile of reality, the constant

528
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: refrain of fake news, the contradictions to undermineing over the press,

529
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: the outright lies, and this all adds up to the

530
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 1: so called post truth era where a lot of us feel, yeah,

531
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:54,959
Speaker 1: very unbalanced and very like daily grind. Yeah. I think

532
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 1: I've talked about this a little bit on the show,

533
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 1: but my post election vibe was very much that way

534
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: that I felt in a kind of way that I

535
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 1: couldn't I was having trouble. This sounds like an exaggeration,

536
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: but I'm not exaggerating. I felt like I was having

537
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: trouble grasping reality and understanding what reality was because I

538
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: feel like I probably kind of like never recovered. I

539
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 1: feel like I spend a lot of time seeing things

540
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: and thinking like what you know, it's just it's And

541
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 1: I think that's also a homework. They say that's a

542
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: hamework of of you know, bad rulers politically, that they

543
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: overwhelm their citizen read with so many things. We're like,

544
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: how could that be? Oh that's oh, how could that be?

545
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: How could that be? Where by the end of it,

546
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: you don't know, like up is down, black and white,

547
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 1: you don't know what's what your best bet? According to

548
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 1: some articles we found, kind of combat this constant deluge

549
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 1: of what is reality? UM is to fact check everything everything,

550
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: educate yourself on what outlets are reputable. UM and Communications

551
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: professor Melissa Zim Dar's has compiled tips recognizing fake or

552
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: miss leading news sites. As it was a thirty page

553
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: spreadsheet of these sites. It's really helpful. I have a

554
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 1: lot to say about this as somebody who has worked

555
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: in journalism and media a lot. The way we talk

556
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: about fake news, I mean, this could be its own episode.

557
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: But so fake news. If you are really familiar with media,

558
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: you know when someone says fake news, like you know

559
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: what they mean. It's a very specific thing. But because

560
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 1: we live in and Donald Trump as our president, fake

561
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 1: news is sort of almost lost its meaning. So when

562
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: a reputable news source gets a report wrong and they

563
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: retract it, which you know, it's it's a drag and

564
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: it happens, it's not fake news that happens, and you

565
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: know when so a good examples when ABC released this

566
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: report on Michael Flynn that they ended up having to retract.

567
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: They retracted it, they apologized, they said, here's what we

568
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 1: got wrong. The reporter who who presented that report was suspended.

569
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 1: All the things that were supposed to happen happened. You know, journalism,

570
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: you should be able to trust your media and your

571
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: and your journalists just like any other profession in there.

572
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 1: They make errors and make mistakes, and there's a protocol

573
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: for that. That is not fake news. And so the

574
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: fact that that has been sort of conflated with stories

575
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: that are flat out bogus, you know, stories saying that

576
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton is running a pedophile ring from the basement

577
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: of my neighborhood DC pizza shop, and we have proof

578
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 1: that is a headline. There is no there's nothing about

579
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: that that's accurate. So that is fake news. But when

580
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: CNN gets a report wrong, admits, it retracts, it takes

581
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: the appropriate the steps that have been appropriate forever to

582
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: do that, that's not fake news. And I feel like

583
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: that's another way that Donald Trump has been able to

584
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 1: use this, this kind of gas lighting to confuse people,

585
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: that people think that a story saying that Hillary Clinton

586
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: is actually a draco reptilian, you know, she's got scales

587
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: under her clothes is on par with ABC getting a

588
00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: story wrong. Yeah. Yeah, it's really just heartening because I've

589
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 1: I guess this is ultimately a good thing. But now

590
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 1: if I'm on a site where I don't immediately recognize

591
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 1: the name and don't immediately like kind of know that

592
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 1: their trustworthy, UM, I have a moment of like, I

593
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: better check out what this is because it could be

594
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 1: totally fake. That's an interesting thing too, because just people

595
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: are so willing to believe things that fall in line

596
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: with what they want to believe. Yes, some people. I mean,

597
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: I'm going to try to keep it under under control.

598
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 1: But I've got on some rants about this. Particularly Facebook

599
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: I think is as you know, a culprit and it's

600
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 1: trying to rein it in, but I would argue as

601
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: doing it badly. Do you know those things on Facebook

602
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: that was like look back on your you know on

603
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 1: this day. I was certainly a culprit for that. Not

604
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: that long ago. I was sharing things that were fogus

605
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 1: because they aligned with my world view at the time.

606
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 1: And I don't think that we realized that bubbles that

607
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: we were creating on one and we did that because

608
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: it felt. It feels so good when you read something

609
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: you're like, yes, finally share, and then you share and

610
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: all your friends shared, and it really shows how susceptible

611
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 1: we all are too information and content that's not actually real.

612
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 1: I actually don't think it's our fault. There is this

613
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: thing I want to stay on CNN where this woman,

614
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: like a journalist came to her house and they said, hey,

615
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 1: we have proof that this Facebook group that you've been

616
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: a part of is actually run by Russian boats. And

617
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: they were like, here's the proof, and she she refused

618
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: to believe it, and a lot of people were like,

619
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: that woman is so stupid, you know, blah blah blah.

620
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: We don't really live in a country that has a

621
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: media that is helps inform a citizen rate. Like we've

622
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 1: kind of moved a little bit past that, And part

623
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: of me thought, this woman, I mean, it's almost sort

624
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 1: of not her fault in a kind of way that

625
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 1: she's so easily duped and believes it so much when

626
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 1: we just don't live in a country that make that

627
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 1: gives people the resources and makes those resources readily available

628
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,959
Speaker 1: for people to have a more critical lens. I completely,

629
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 1: I'm on the same page with you there. Um media literacy.

630
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 1: We wanted to do a whole like podcast and that

631
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 1: was always going to be as media literacy. Maybe we

632
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: should revive the idea to teach that in college. God yeah, my,

633
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: Like when I was teaching Howard are one oh one

634
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,959
Speaker 1: uh unit was on media literacy actually was a really

635
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,280
Speaker 1: fun course. Man. Maybe we should have like a little

636
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: recurring check in, check in. So all of this has

637
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 1: been triggering for survivors of gaslighting and relationships that depended

638
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 1: on gas lighting. All of this like kind of Trump

639
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 1: cabinet and just discussion of whether or not it is

640
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 1: gas lighting. And then for people that it feels very

641
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,479
Speaker 1: much like gas lighting who have lived through it, it's

642
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,280
Speaker 1: been a difficult period. And over at the Guardian Aerial,

643
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: lev Um offered these tips as someone who survived gas

644
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: lighting as a child, stay defiant, Recognize that they will

645
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: never be accountability. The gas lighter will never take responsibility

646
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 1: for their actions or come around to your point of view.

647
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 1: I want to talk about that one briefly. Um, I

648
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: have a long term relationship with a gas lighter in

649
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 1: my life and it's not that kind of relationship that

650
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 1: I could sort of cut off. And that one, I

651
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 1: think is super super hard because it's so easy to

652
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 1: sort of get caught in this idea of I'm going

653
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: to prove them wrong and you know, compile evidence, and

654
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,399
Speaker 1: you know the lengths I went to try to get

655
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: this person to admit that they were gas not not

656
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 1: even admit they were gaslighting me, but to admit that

657
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: they were not telling the truth, not saying something correct.

658
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 1: It almost was not worth my own sense of self.

659
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,320
Speaker 1: It almost was exhausting emotionally for me. And so having

660
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,839
Speaker 1: to recognize, I will never the accountability I want. I'll

661
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,240
Speaker 1: never get it. I could spend my whole life waiting,

662
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 1: and this person will never be will never say I

663
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 1: lied about this because I wanted to control you, and

664
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'll never get that. And having to admit

665
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:06,839
Speaker 1: that and own that is really really hard, and it's

666
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 1: like a constant struggle. But I think that as people

667
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: who are victims of this kind of of narcissistic abuse,

668
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 1: it's so easy to kind of be a lawyer, and like,

669
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 1: you know, I used to think, like, oh, I'm gonna

670
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna record them with my phone and there my pocket,

671
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 1: and so when they say they didn't say X, I'll

672
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 1: play it for them and then I'll hold it under

673
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 1: their nose. We'll have to admit it. And I used

674
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 1: to have these wild fantasies of of finally getting my

675
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: my you know, of getting them to admit this. And

676
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 1: then I had to say, I'll never get hit and

677
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 1: I have to stay defiant and I have to just

678
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 1: let it go and that's that's another another way to

679
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 1: deal with it. You gotta let go of the wish

680
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: that you have for things to be different, because they

681
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 1: probably won't be different. Like my the person in my

682
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 1: life who was a gas lighter. That is how this

683
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,280
Speaker 1: person is, and I have kind of let go of

684
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 1: any hope that our relationship will be different because this

685
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 1: is how it is. And I have to just stay

686
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 1: defiant and and be confident about my own approach and

687
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: my own understanding situations, and yes, set those boundaries like

688
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: you were saying earlier, say I am behaving in an

689
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 1: appropriate way. What I'm asking for is completely reasonable. The

690
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,839
Speaker 1: way that I'm perceiving the situation is reasonable, and not

691
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 1: get sucked into this to this toxic vibe where this

692
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 1: other person sets the reality. And so you could be

693
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: being totally normal and they're saying that you're being unreasonable

694
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: or jealous or petty or this or that, are ungrateful

695
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: like any of the fill in whatever your gaslighter is

696
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 1: saying here. Yeah, I'm a firm believer that people will

697
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,959
Speaker 1: justify their actions and make them correct. They will do

698
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 1: what they have to do, like the mental acrobatics they

699
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 1: need to do to justify what they're doing and make

700
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:45,919
Speaker 1: it okay. So people are not going to take accountability

701
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 1: for things if it means admitting to themselves that what

702
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: they're doing is wrong, and they'll have to stop. I

703
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: think that is unfortunate, but very rare that people would

704
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: actually turn around, and yeah, you'll waste a lot of

705
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: energy trying to change someone. And I have a friends

706
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 1: who to your point about like producing proof that she

707
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,359
Speaker 1: usedid this like unshakable faith? I think the thing that

708
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 1: we all kind of want to have unshakeable faith in

709
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 1: the certain things are like this is real, the numbers

710
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 1: are there's no alternative facts. This is it. And to

711
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: have that, to present that and have it dismissed is

712
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: kind of frightening, and it kind of shakes your well,

713
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 1: if I can't if that's not going to change things,

714
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: if that's going to be just shoved aside as if

715
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,280
Speaker 1: it's not facts. It's a difficult concept and a frightening

716
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 1: concept to grapple with. And she said it really shook

717
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 1: her that she had this faith in that and then

718
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: it didn't matter. Yeah, so that it's tough, Like none

719
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 1: of these things are easy. Another thing that Aerial recommended

720
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 1: was develop a healthy detachment distinguished between the world of

721
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 1: the gas lighter in the real world. And for me

722
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 1: that's that's been helpful because I too have a gas

723
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 1: lighter in my life. Eventually, I just had to be like,

724
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 1: he sees a different world than me, and I know

725
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: that what I'm saying I can verify with other people,

726
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,399
Speaker 1: that's the thing, But he's not seeing that. Yeah, that's

727
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,760
Speaker 1: that's been helpful doing with my gas lighter as well.

728
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 1: Where in my situation there are so many flying monkeys,

729
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 1: so to speak, where it's just easier for them to

730
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,320
Speaker 1: give it and say, yeah, this this warped version of reality,

731
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 1: that's not true. Let's just say it's true, right, Like

732
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: this person could be saying could be wearing a blue

733
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: shirt and say it's red, and everybody just out of

734
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:29,959
Speaker 1: sheer exhaustion and say, yeah, I guess it's red. And

735
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: having a little bit of a detachment from that for

736
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 1: me has been really helpful and saying when I know

737
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 1: that this is just how the this this is the

738
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 1: world they live in, and for whatever reason, they've convinced

739
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 1: themselves that this is reality. But I know reality and

740
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,919
Speaker 1: I know what's reasonable, and I'm not going to play

741
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 1: the game of even getting caught up into this, and

742
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 1: it is hard, it's very hard. It's so tempting to

743
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,839
Speaker 1: get sucked into it and you know, get mired in it.

744
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 1: But that attachment that love speaks to, I think is

745
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 1: so critical. Yeah, and to your point, the exhaustion that

746
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,840
Speaker 1: is a that's a hallmark of gaslighting. And said, eventually

747
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 1: you just get worn down and you're like, okay. And

748
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: it's often compared to like the frog and the pot

749
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,280
Speaker 1: of water as it gets hotter and hotter, because it's gradual,

750
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 1: gradually wearing you down. And I did want to include

751
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,320
Speaker 1: this example of from the Washington Post story we mentioned earlier.

752
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 1: It was about um by a journalist who witnessed Trump's

753
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: campaign manager at the time, Korey Lewandowski, grabbing and yanking

754
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 1: another reporter in Michelle Fields. When the Trump team they

755
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,320
Speaker 1: denied it outright that it ever happened, and the reporter

756
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 1: who saw it ben terrorist. He started to doubt what

757
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 1: he saw because there everyone else was asking him, I'm like,

758
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 1: are you sure you saw that? Even said I remember

759
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: that reporter even said they had never met. Yeah, and

760
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 1: they were one thing on video. Yes. Well, then the

761
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 1: video came out, and the chump team doubled down. They

762
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 1: were like, Oh, that's nothing, you're all over reacting. The

763
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 1: reporter kind of writes about how he started researching false

764
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 1: witness accounts and maybe what if I didn't am I

765
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 1: seeing what I am, I remembering what I think I'm

766
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 1: remembering correctly, what if I'm not, And how it kind

767
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:11,879
Speaker 1: of it brightened him a little bit because it gave

768
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 1: him a taste of just having your whole reality put

769
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: into a question. Um, And that's kind of what Trump

770
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 1: has been doing when he's dealing with accusations of sexual

771
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,359
Speaker 1: assault too. He's like outride Glide that said he's never

772
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 1: met them, when proof exists that he had. We got

773
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: you on camera, mother, Like it takes some real goal

774
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 1: to be like I never met that person. It's like, oh,

775
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 1: well we did meet and okay, Like it's like that

776
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,800
Speaker 1: that's saying they call a narcissists prayer that didn't happen,

777
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 1: and if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if

778
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 1: it was, it's not a big deal. And if it is,

779
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,320
Speaker 1: it's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't

780
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: mean it. And if I did, you deserved it. Wow. Yeah,

781
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:55,360
Speaker 1: pretty much. That's that's it. So when we talk about

782
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 1: recovery from gas lighting, being able to pick up on

783
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: gas unting behaviors and recognizing them for what they are

784
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,359
Speaker 1: is a huge step. Having a support system is really

785
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 1: vital too, to help you regain your footing in reality.

786
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 1: UM Codependence anonymous might be helpful. It's c O d

787
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 1: A dot org. And it's important to not to blame

788
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 1: yourself for not having trusted yourself. Gas flighting is really

789
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 1: effective and it is gradual. You shouldn't blame yourself for that.

790
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: Another tip is redirecting anchoring statements when you catch yourself

791
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 1: romanticizing your abuser or employing repetition of the truth in

792
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 1: your favor. This could be inform of something like documenting

793
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,399
Speaker 1: the truth, seeking self validation, and really is thinking about

794
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: things like doing reality testing with people that you trust,

795
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: sort of talking to someone who you know can confirm

796
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 1: that you are perceiving things accurately and sort of relying

797
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: on them to help you help you sort through this. Yeah,

798
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 1: and I read a lot of examples of UM, like

799
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 1: keeping a journal and seeing so and so said I'm

800
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 1: a terrible person and that I'm I'm good at these things,

801
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 1: and he's saying, I'm terrible for this reason when I

802
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 1: know that I didn't do this, and like just keeping

803
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 1: reaffirming and writing that down, having something that you can

804
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 1: look to and remember, like like proof if this is

805
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,399
Speaker 1: something that you have dealt with, or you know someone

806
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 1: that is dealt with. The phone number for the National

807
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 1: Domestic Violence Hotline is one eight hundred seven seven two

808
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,839
Speaker 1: three three. That's one seven nine nine seven two three three,

809
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,240
Speaker 1: or I can chat with someone online at the hotline

810
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:34,760
Speaker 1: dot org. Hopefully this is at least given people tools

811
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 1: to recognize this behavior, because I do think that is

812
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: really important. I hope so too. And if you're dealing

813
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 1: with gas lighting out there, we want to hear what

814
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 1: tips have you used to cope with it? How's it

815
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: ben for you. I'm sure it's something that can feel

816
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 1: very isolating, and you know you don't have to deal

817
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 1: with it alone and you shouldn't have to, so definitely

818
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 1: reach out to folks, and we want to hear from

819
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:57,439
Speaker 1: you as well. Absolutely, and that brings us to Listener mail.

820
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 1: Our first letters from Brittany Britney wrote about her journey

821
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 1: to feminism. I'm not really sure where it began. But

822
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,280
Speaker 1: like one of you mentioned, Bridget, I think I've always

823
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 1: been into those feminist girl power shows. I loved Buffy, Charmed, Xena,

824
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: et cetera. One of my favorite was Broona Kamar. Such

825
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:17,800
Speaker 1: an independent female lead that also takes care of business

826
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 1: and fights to help everyone around her no matter who

827
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:21,799
Speaker 1: it is. The show is the reason that I'm such

828
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 1: a huge fan of Kristen Bell, because Christen Bell is

829
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 1: great and Ronne camrs it's really good it is. I'm

830
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 1: pretty sure I love all of those shows you mentioned

831
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 1: when I when I was in my formative years as

832
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 1: well and still now. One of the other reasons she

833
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 1: goes on is music related. I was extremely obsessed with

834
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,720
Speaker 1: Destiny's Child since I was in middle school. I'm twenty

835
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: six years old. Pop R and B and rock music

836
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,479
Speaker 1: helped me get through my rough teenage years. My parents

837
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 1: divorced when I was in the second grade. Later, my

838
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 1: mom was depressed and my dad's been a lot of

839
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 1: time in jail prison, so I didn't get a lot

840
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,400
Speaker 1: of guidance or attention in middle school or high school. Luckily,

841
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 1: I turned out pretty okay anyway, Destiny's Child was a

842
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 1: clear obsession of mine and I always had a lot

843
00:44:57,239 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 1: of inner thoughts of being an independent young woman and

844
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 1: doing what I wanted to do, regardless of what others

845
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:05,720
Speaker 1: or society thought of it. Oh the ladies independent, throw

846
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 1: your hands up at me. Oh I love it. I

847
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 1: could we could do an episode on Destiny's Child. My

848
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,359
Speaker 1: favorite thing about Destiny's Child is how Tina Knowles would

849
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: always design those tacky but actually amazing costumes. So we'll

850
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 1: be One of them would have the pants version, one

851
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 1: of them has a shorts version, one of them had

852
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: the dress version. You know the best. I had a

853
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 1: picture of them on my finder for two years. It

854
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 1: was great. Another album in particular that sticks in my

855
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 1: mind is Christina aguilarra Is stripped particularly Can't Hold Us

856
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 1: Down as a pretty epic choice to me when it

857
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 1: came out. This again reinforce this girl power vibe that

858
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,719
Speaker 1: I love. Another obvious choice from this album is also Beautiful.

859
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 1: Um sang that at Talent Show. Nailed it to Bridget.

860
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:48,839
Speaker 1: Next time we do karaoke, I am going to try

861
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 1: to push you to that one's really good. Also, the

862
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,320
Speaker 1: song that she did on the Mulan soundtracks really good.

863
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 1: She had as it's a classic she's so good reflections.

864
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 1: Oh you know a song. Yes, people don't think of her,

865
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 1: but she made a lot of good songs for young

866
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 1: people who were going through and like wanted to feel

867
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,879
Speaker 1: adult feelings. You know. Gene and a bottle Baby got

868
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 1: to rub me the right way. Last, but not least

869
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:17,239
Speaker 1: Fighter was also very important because it taught me that

870
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 1: no matter what I was going through, I'd make it

871
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:21,760
Speaker 1: through okay, because I was strong and could get through anything.

872
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 1: I set my mind too. So thank you so much

873
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 1: for writing. Oh yeah, we connected to a lot of that, Brittany, obviously. Obviously, Brittany,

874
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 1: let's come talk music. Yeah, it'll be like a Destiny's

875
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 1: Child slash outbursts of singing podcast which who wouldn't want

876
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 1: to listen to that? Who wouldn't Anyone who's heard me

877
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 1: at karaokes like, um me, yes, I have a terrible voice.

878
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:50,760
Speaker 1: Thank you for that letter. I have one from Aaron.

879
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 1: Aaron wrote, just heard the episode on the NFL Cheerleader's

880
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 1: a great job, and you mentioned that you hadn't heard

881
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 1: women say quote, I have a son in the same

882
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 1: way a man might say, I wouldn't split women I

883
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 1: have daughters. I thought I would share my experience with

884
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 1: hearing that phrase. Surprise women still lose. At my conservative

885
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 1: Christian college, Spring harolded a group of form posts from

886
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 1: men to the general effect of ladies, please cover up

887
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 1: your sun dresses are causing us men to have impure thoughts.

888
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: Several arguments back and forth, and usually one that says,

889
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 1: we're your brothers in Christ and you're making a stumble.

890
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 1: That's pretty bad. But the ones I found particularly poisonous,

891
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: or the ones from other women that said things like

892
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: I have brothers and future sons and I don't want

893
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 1: them to be in moral danger. This is striking because

894
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 1: it's basically tells me that the only way a woman

895
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 1: could have an opinion on the subject is by taking

896
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 1: on the male gaze and speaking from that perspective. Moral

897
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 1: of the story, sun dresses are a paraful weapon, and

898
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 1: the Pentagon to check into deploying them if we're interested

899
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:52,439
Speaker 1: in bringing down the male gender. Sun dresses. I've long suspected, Oh,

900
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 1: because we're at a sundress in the studio, came equipped

901
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 1: her battle. That's right, always got a sun dress ready

902
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 1: to go. So thank you to Aaron and Brittany for

903
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 1: writing You two can write to us and we would

904
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 1: love to hear from you. Our email is mom Stuff

905
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 1: at house to folks it dot com, and you can

906
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,280
Speaker 1: find us on the social means on Instagram at stuff

907
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,839
Speaker 1: I've Never Told You and on Twitter at mom stuff. Yes,

908
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,799
Speaker 1: and thanks for listening, and thanks as always to our producers,

909
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 1: Dylan Fagan and Catheine Kogan