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Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's Josh Josh Clark. No, not that Josh

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Speaker 1: Clark you went to high school with. Sorry to get

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Speaker 1: your hopes up like that. This is Josh Clark from

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Speaker 1: that podcast you listen to Stuff You Should Know, And

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Speaker 1: for this week's SYSK Select, I'd chosen our September twenty

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Speaker 1: nineteen episode on lime disease. This one's pretty fascinating because

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Speaker 1: it turns out lime disease has a ton of intrigue

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Speaker 1: associated with it. It started out with a cluster of

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Speaker 1: weird symptoms of people in Connecticut, and then they finally

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Speaker 1: figured out it was coming from tics. But the mystery

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Speaker 1: wasn't over because people started developing chronic lime and at

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Speaker 1: first the medical community didn't believe they had any disease whatsoever.

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Speaker 1: They thought it was all in their heads. Well they

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Speaker 1: were wrong. You can find out about all this and

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Speaker 1: more in this episode on lime disease.

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Speaker 2: Enjoy Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's

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Speaker 1: Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry over there. This

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Speaker 1: is Stuff you Should Know the podcast. Yeah, Chuck, I

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Speaker 1: have a question for you. Yes, you know it kicks

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Speaker 1: me OFFLME disease.

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Speaker 3: I'm so mad at you.

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Speaker 1: Blame you me for that one. She's like, you should

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Speaker 1: say this, and I said, you know what, I'm I

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Speaker 1: should totally say that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. This is sort of a follow up to our

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Speaker 3: July twenty seventh, twenty ten episode Why Ticks Suck In,

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Speaker 3: which which is sort of a legendary episode because we

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Speaker 3: falsely promised to send people T shirts if they made

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Speaker 3: it all the way through the episode. That's right, We're

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Speaker 3: just kidding. But we still get those requests of wears

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Speaker 3: my shirt.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's hilarious. I forgot about that and also get

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Speaker 1: sued today.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Probably. So. Also want to point out and shout

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Speaker 3: out our former website HowStuffWorks dot com because a couple

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Speaker 3: of the articles that we use for much of this

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Speaker 3: episode is from the old HSW website.

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Speaker 1: Nice, they're holding it down over there.

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Speaker 3: They're holding it down and this is real good stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So we're talking today about lime disease.

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Speaker 3: In particular, not limes.

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Speaker 1: No, we should say it's capital l ym disease. And

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Speaker 1: the reason it's called that is because it's named after

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Speaker 1: a town which is one of three towns where the

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Speaker 1: initial outbreak of lime disease that led to this bacterial

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Speaker 1: infection persistent bacterial infection was first describe medically.

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Speaker 3: One of the facts of the show. I think, oh yeah, sure,

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Speaker 3: who knew it was named after a town, Lime, Connecticut?

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Speaker 3: I knew did you know that before this?

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Speaker 1: Sure?

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Speaker 3: Did we cover that? And why tik suck?

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Speaker 1: I don't think so.

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Speaker 3: All right, well, you're smarter than me that.

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Speaker 1: No, it's not that. I think what got me was

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Speaker 1: I I heard about people saying, like, no lime disease,

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Speaker 1: like people take it for granted, but it's actually some

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Speaker 1: this really mysterious illness. And I'm like, what are you

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Speaker 1: talking about? So I think I looked into this year's

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Speaker 1: back and that's what I found out.

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Speaker 3: All right, that was all So we're equally smart.

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Speaker 1: Right exactly, I'm not smarter than you.

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Speaker 3: What is smart? It's just like someone happens to know

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Speaker 3: one thing, someone else knows another. Sure, I say, they

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Speaker 3: cancel out, we're all smart here you goo.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you pulled that out because I would have

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Speaker 1: been like, what is smart? I couldn't have come up

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Speaker 1: with the definition.

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Speaker 3: So lime disease, We'll go ahead and hit you with

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Speaker 3: a couple of stats here. Lime disease in the United

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Speaker 3: States is more than doubled since nineteen ninety seven.

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Speaker 1: That's astounding, it is.

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Speaker 3: And it has spread too. It used to be very

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Speaker 3: much localized in kind of the Northeast, sort of mid

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Speaker 3: Atlantic areas, some in the South, but now you can

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Speaker 3: get lime disease. And I believe the entire lower forty

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Speaker 3: eight is that correct.

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Speaker 1: There are cases in all forty eight states. Supposedly half

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Speaker 1: of the counties in the United States now are considered

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Speaker 1: a high risk for lime disease. And like all of

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Speaker 1: this happened just in the last like twenty or so years. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which is I mean, there's a lot of debate over

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Speaker 1: the CDC calls lime disease endemic, which is a disease

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Speaker 1: that has become a like an ongoing part of an

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Speaker 1: area or region, and some other people are saying, guys,

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about here is an epidemic. This is

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Speaker 1: an epidemic, and you should start calling it that because

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Speaker 1: it will kind of raise the alarm to the next

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Speaker 1: level or two where it should be. Because this is

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Speaker 1: a very alarming spread of disease that we're seeing right now,

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Speaker 1: lime disease is the number one vector borne disease in

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Speaker 1: the United States. It's way more prevalent than things like

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Speaker 1: West Nile or chicken gooony or anything like that, but

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Speaker 1: it's still kind of treated as like up there in

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Speaker 1: the northeastern US thing, and that's just not the case.

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Speaker 1: It's spread in every direction except east because it hit

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Speaker 1: the Atlantic, but everywhere else where. It can spread into

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Speaker 1: the interior of the United States and up into Canada.

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Speaker 1: It's starting to.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and there's also a history continuing to this day

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Speaker 3: even where lime disease can be overlooked, misdiagnosed, not taken

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Speaker 3: as seriously by your doctor as it should be, including

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Speaker 3: what we'll get to later on something called post treatment

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Speaker 3: lime disease syndrome. And it's all very frustrating if you

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Speaker 3: have been an individual that has had lime disease. There's

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Speaker 3: a big community out there of people that are like,

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Speaker 3: why won't anyone listen to us, Why won't our doctors

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Speaker 3: take as seriously? And what do we have to do here?

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Speaker 3: Like do we have to start dropping dead?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a tremendous amount of frustration in that community

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Speaker 1: because there's a sentiment among the medical establishment that.

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Speaker 3: You know, he takes some antiotics.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, it's easy to cure lime disease. Here's some antibiotics.

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Speaker 1: You still have persistent symptoms. Those are probably in your head.

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Speaker 1: We're not going to say they're in your head, but

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Speaker 1: they're in your head. And the people who are experiencing

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Speaker 1: these symptoms are like, no, my life has been derailed

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Speaker 1: by these symptoms, and you guys aren't doing anything about it.

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Speaker 3: It's frustrating. I know there's a lot of people out

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Speaker 3: there that are pretty pretty stoked right now to be

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Speaker 3: hearing this. Yeah, you know for sure we're advocating for

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Speaker 3: you guys. Sure, not patting myself on the back, although

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Speaker 3: I am literally patty like.

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Speaker 1: I see you chuck here. That albow is sticking out

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Speaker 1: pretty far. So.

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Speaker 3: Lime disease is a disease. It's an infection caused by

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Speaker 3: the bacterium boro lea burgdorfrairi wow borg da faery burg

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Speaker 3: dea fraiari.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna get you an apron and call you the

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Speaker 1: word butcher.

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Speaker 3: Burgdor fairy work more. And we'll get to why it's

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Speaker 3: called that in a bit. But if you haven't caught

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Speaker 3: on by now, it is transmitted through tick bites.

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Speaker 1: Right, So, a tick, and in particular a nymph stage

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Speaker 1: of a tick, which is a young adult or juvenile tick,

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Speaker 1: will transmit this bacteria, the Borellia burgdor fairy, into a human.

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Speaker 1: And the reason we usually get it from nymphs chuck

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Speaker 1: is because an adult tick doesn't find humans particularly appetizing,

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Speaker 1: but a nymph tick will because they're stupid, they don't

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Speaker 1: know anything yet. So as they're feeding on us. After

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Speaker 1: somewhere maybe around twenty four to thirty six hours of

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Speaker 1: feeding this infected tick that has this bacteria in it,

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Speaker 1: the bacteria will make its way from the mid gut

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Speaker 1: to the tick saliva and the tick transmit it transmits

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Speaker 1: it into the human bloodstream, where it just absolutely wreaks

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Speaker 1: havoc on the human body.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you said something really key there, twenty four

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Speaker 3: thirty six, forty eight hours later, really really important. They

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Speaker 3: have to be attached to you for that long, sometimes

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Speaker 3: even longer to transmit this bacterium. So if you find

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Speaker 3: a tick on you and you get it off, if

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Speaker 3: you don't need to sweat lime disease, no, if you

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Speaker 3: get it off in due time.

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Speaker 1: Right exactly, If like you see it's still crawling on you.

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Speaker 1: It's unattached, you don't worry about it at all. But

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Speaker 1: when it is attached and when it has transmitted the

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Speaker 1: bacteria what it's transmitted, This be burgdor Ferry is like

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Speaker 1: really amazing at its job, which is infecting you, giving

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Speaker 1: you a bacterial infection. It has figured out how to

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Speaker 1: zoom through the bloodstream but then also take itself out

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Speaker 1: of the bloodstream by latching onto the walls of your

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Speaker 1: blood vessels.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this was crazy about this cellular stuff that once

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Speaker 3: it's attached to a cell. They said, it's like a slinky.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't let go. It just like basically reaches out

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Speaker 3: and grabs the next cell without letting go of the

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Speaker 3: previous cell and just sort of walks end over end right,

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Speaker 3: never unattaching.

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Speaker 1: Itself right exactly. So as it's moving along, it's never

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Speaker 1: it's not going to get kind of you know, washed

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Speaker 1: away and the extracellular matrix it's stuck to the cell.

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Speaker 1: If it wants to be stuck in the cell, it

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Speaker 1: can do the same thing to the blood vessel walls

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Speaker 1: to pull itself out of the bloodstream and then go

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Speaker 1: attack you know, specific parts of the body, So it's

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Speaker 1: really good at hanging on. That's one thing that makes

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Speaker 1: it kind of pernicious. And then another thing exactly, it's

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Speaker 1: basically yeah, it's like the bacteria version of a tick.

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Speaker 1: I didn't think about that. And then another thing it does, Chuck,

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Speaker 1: I think this is really really recent research. It can

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Speaker 1: actually change its protein expression at a much faster rate

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Speaker 1: than the normal mutation rate for bacteria, something like fifteen

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Speaker 1: times faster.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And what that does is that just makes it

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Speaker 3: really hard for our human immune system to catch up to.

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Speaker 1: It, right, because our immune system will produce antibodies based

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Speaker 1: on the initial infection, but by the time the antibodies

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Speaker 1: come around, the bacteria may have changed itself so that

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Speaker 1: the antibodies won't recognize it. They'll just go right past

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Speaker 1: it because it doesn't it doesn't fit the description that

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Speaker 1: the antibodies have.

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Speaker 3: That's right, And you'll know that something bad is happening

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Speaker 3: first of all if you find that tick. But if

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Speaker 3: you get headaches, fever, fatigue is a huge, huge symptom.

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Speaker 3: But the real telltale is what's called em It's an

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Speaker 3: expanding skin rash called erythema migrants and it's like it's

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Speaker 3: that circular pattern. And then we did talk about this

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Speaker 3: on the Ticks episode. But it's a circular pattern with

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Speaker 3: what looks like a bull's eye in the center of it.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and you can take off your butcher's apron now

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Speaker 1: because you just that was beautiful, put on your chef's

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Speaker 1: chef's hat.

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Speaker 3: You're sweating over there.

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Speaker 1: So that that particular rash, that bullseye rash, that is

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Speaker 1: like a just an absolute telltale sign that you have

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Speaker 1: a line boreolis boreliosis infection that only comes around and

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Speaker 1: like maybe seventy to eighty percent of cases. I think

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Speaker 1: if every person got that rash, we would not have

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Speaker 1: this problem with lime disease because it would be caught

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Speaker 1: very quickly because you get that within usually about a

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Speaker 1: week or less of getting infected. But it doesn't come

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Speaker 1: up in all cases. And with some of those other

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Speaker 1: symptoms like you said, like weakness, headaches, flu like symptoms

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Speaker 1: like those could be a lot of different other things,

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Speaker 1: joint pain, and so the lime disease infection goes undiagnosed

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Speaker 1: or misdiagnosed in a lot of cases, are did for

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Speaker 1: many many years. It's just now that they're starting to

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Speaker 1: kind of recognize it or suspect lime when otherwise they

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Speaker 1: might not have.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean literally hundreds of things can be can

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Speaker 3: have the same symptoms as lime disease. So lime's been

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Speaker 3: around for a long time. We'll talk about the history

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Speaker 3: here in a minute, as far as the nineteen seventies

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Speaker 3: go and official recognition, but it's been around. I believe

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Speaker 3: the Yale School of Public Health find the bacterium in

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Speaker 3: ancient North America, like sixty thousand years old before the

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Speaker 3: arrival of humans. They have an autopsy of a fifty

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Speaker 3: three hundred year old mummy that had lime disease.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know Utzi the Iceman, remember him?

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Speaker 3: I remember Uzzy?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I was disappointed that they referred to him as

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Speaker 1: a fifty three hundred year old mummy. It's like, no,

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Speaker 1: it's Utzi the ice everybody knows him, give him his name.

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Speaker 1: But he had lime disease.

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Speaker 3: He did. And there was a German physician named Alfred

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Speaker 3: Buckwald who described this that em skin rash that we

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Speaker 3: now call lime disease about one hundred and thirty years ago.

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Speaker 1: Right, So lime disease has been around a while, but

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Speaker 1: we are just now seeing a huge again an epidemic

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Speaker 1: of it, and in a massive spread of it, not

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Speaker 1: just in North America, but there's also two other kinds

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Speaker 1: of ticks that transmit two other kinds of lime causing

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Speaker 1: bacteria in Europe and Asia, and in all three places,

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Speaker 1: North America, Europe, and parts of Asia, the incidence of

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Speaker 1: lime diseases picking up at an alarming pace.

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Speaker 3: I think we should slow down our pace. Take break. Okay,

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Speaker 3: all right, we'll come back and we'll talk about Lime

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Speaker 3: Connecticut right after this. All right, So Lime, Connecticut. Something

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Speaker 3: is very old hat to you.

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Speaker 1: Right it for years Lime Old Lime?

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Speaker 3: And what was the third town? I don't remember, No,

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Speaker 3: let's just call it New Lime. It was.

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Speaker 1: Notice, they're going to be so mad. Their high school

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Speaker 1: football team is going to go brazik on Old Lime

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Speaker 1: this year.

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Speaker 3: In the nineteen seventies, though, there were a group of

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Speaker 3: children and adults in these towns in Connecticut that were

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Speaker 3: having all these weird symptoms swollen knees, skin rashes, headaches,

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Speaker 3: all this severe fatigue. And it's bad enough these days,

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Speaker 3: But in the early nineteen seventies, doctors were definitely did

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Speaker 3: not have this on the radar and were very dismissive

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Speaker 3: of what was going on in these towns and if

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Speaker 3: it were not for the work of Judith Minch and

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Speaker 3: Polly Murray too, just regular moms. Although Polly Murray did

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Speaker 3: work for the World Health Organization for a while. They

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Speaker 3: were advocates. They were patient advocates because their families were

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Speaker 3: getting sick and no one would listen. And they were like,

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Speaker 3: someone's got to do something. Something's going on here, and

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Speaker 3: these doctors are not being any help, right, And it

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Speaker 3: was a big deal. Polly Murray ended up writing a book.

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Speaker 3: She made it sort of her life's work in nineteen

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Speaker 3: ninety six, a book called The Widening Circle. And because

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Speaker 3: of sort of the persistent sexism and science, they were

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Speaker 3: largely discounted, even though they had a list of thirty

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Speaker 3: seven individuals they researched on their own, contacted scientists. We

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Speaker 3: just really need to shout them out. Polly Murray died

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Speaker 3: just about a month ago at the age of eighty five.

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Speaker 1: Oh is that right? Yeah, Yeah, she was a persistent

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Speaker 1: cuss as they call them up in the Yankee States.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 1: So on the one hand, yes, from the everything I've

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Speaker 1: read and all the impressions I have. They were very

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Speaker 1: much dismissed, and it was very much sexist and also

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Speaker 1: I think because they weren't doctors. But on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: the doctors who were being presented with these cases were like,

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Speaker 1: I have no idea what this is, so let's just

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Speaker 1: pretend it's not real. But luckily those two women in

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Speaker 1: the groups that they established, they went on and they

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Speaker 1: contacted Yale Medical School, they contacted the state, and they

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Speaker 1: really kind of put this on the map. They said,

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Speaker 1: there is a mysterious epidemic that's going on where you

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Speaker 1: have a lot of kids who suddenly have juvenile arthritis

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Speaker 1: out of nowhere. What are you guys going to do

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Speaker 1: about it? And because of their agitation, this mystery made

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Speaker 1: its way to the desk or I guess, the microscope

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Speaker 1: of a guy named Willie Bergdorffer, and he was at

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Speaker 1: the time the world's foremost authority on what's called Rocky

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Speaker 1: Mountain spotted fever, which is another tickborn bacterial infection.

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Speaker 3: I remember that when I was a kid, that was

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Speaker 3: a big news item. It was a scary one.

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Speaker 1: He was working out in Colorado, and Colorado was ground

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Speaker 1: zero for Rocky Mountain spotted fever. For a while, which is, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you do not want to have that. It's a really

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Speaker 1: bad bacterial infection. But by this time they had done

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Speaker 1: thanks to the legwork done by the moms and the

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Speaker 1: patient advocate groups in the Lime, Connecticut, it had been

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Speaker 1: pretty well established that the common thread between all these people,

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Speaker 1: besides where they lived and by the way, it was

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00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:13,400
Speaker 1: chuck lyme Old Lime and East HadAM sorry East HadAM

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Speaker 1: aside from the fact that they all lived in the

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Speaker 1: same region, was that all of them were almost all

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Speaker 1: of them were called being bitten by a tick, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of them had a mysterious rash right before

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Speaker 1: the symptoms presented. So it came to this guy, Willie

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Speaker 1: Bergdorffer's microscope because they had said, there's something in the

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Speaker 1: ticks here that is creating this disease that we haven't

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Speaker 1: encountered before.

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Speaker 3: That's right, and he had already discovered this bacterium called

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Speaker 3: it How do you how do you pronounce that spirit.

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Speaker 1: Chat spira keet, spire key, But spira keet is a

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Speaker 1: type of bacteria, and that's what that's what they all, right,

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Speaker 1: spirra chet and you just made me think of the

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Speaker 1: older brother Chet and weird.

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Speaker 3: Now go make yourself one. But what.

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Speaker 1: Man? That guy had some good quotes.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, rip what what Bill Paxton when he died

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Speaker 3: a couple of years ago? Very sad?

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Speaker 1: Are you sure I'm thinking of Bill Pullman?

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Speaker 3: No, Bill Paxton died. It was so sad because I

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Speaker 3: had just listened to his uh Mark Maron interview and

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Speaker 3: he was like, after that episode, I wanted nothing more

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Speaker 3: than to be Bill Paxton's friend and neighbor. He just

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Speaker 3: sounded like the best guy and best family man. And

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Speaker 3: he passed away way too early.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, really, I did not know about that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I saw Frailty not too many weeks ago. It's still

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Speaker 1: pretty good.

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Speaker 3: Was it the first viewinger?

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Speaker 1: No? No, no, I've seen it before.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, man, great movie.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. But he wrote and I believe directed and starred

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Speaker 1: in it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. It was so good. And I love a good

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Speaker 3: Powers Booth cast and call.

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Speaker 1: For sure it was. It was unusual and surprising.

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Speaker 3: But it was perfect, very good, underrated film. Where are we? Oh?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we were talking about Rocky Mountain spotted fever. Willie

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Speaker 1: Bergdorfer identifying the spiro keet that was causing.

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Speaker 3: Lime hirakeet right, spira chet What a dumb, dumb.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. No, remember we established we're all smart.

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Speaker 3: He Yeah, So he discovered this, this parakeet, and he

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00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:28,320
Speaker 3: was honored by this discovery and naming that thing after himself.

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Speaker 3: That's why it has that interesting name.

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Speaker 1: I get the impression. And he didn't name it after himself.

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Speaker 1: They named it after him to go on.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, but.

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Speaker 1: There's a big difference between him saying this thing's called

359
00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:44,280
Speaker 1: the Burgdorferey bacteria and somebody saying we're going to name

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Speaker 1: this after you.

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Speaker 3: No, I totally agree.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So Burgdorfrey or Burgdorfer. He figures out what is

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Speaker 1: the basis of lime disease, which is great. That's an

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00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,920
Speaker 1: enormous breakthrough. It establishes that yes, it is its own thing,

365
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Speaker 1: it's its own disease. And because it was a bacteria,

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Speaker 1: it's a spier key, which again it's a kind of

367
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:09,640
Speaker 1: a snakelike shaped bacteria specific kind that walks like a slinky.

368
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Speaker 1: Because it was a bacterial infection, the medical establishment said, oh,

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Speaker 1: we got this here. Take some antibiotics, and over the

370
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,840
Speaker 1: course of several years, starting in I think the nineties,

371
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Speaker 1: is when they really started to say, okay, we can

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Speaker 1: cure lyme disease, especially if we catch it early on

373
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Speaker 1: by a two to four week round of antibiotics. Right,

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Speaker 1: here you go, and they said, case closed, we're the

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Speaker 1: medical establishment. Let's go have a party for ourselves.

376
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Speaker 3: Yeah, And here's the thing, Like many times that can

377
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,199
Speaker 3: take care of the problem. So it's not like they

378
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,720
Speaker 3: were just lazy and not doing their work. But I

379
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:51,439
Speaker 3: think they closed the book a little too soon, and

380
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Speaker 3: a lot of people do because that oral that round

381
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,400
Speaker 3: of oral antibiotics, if you catch it early, it can

382
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,000
Speaker 3: really work. But and I think they say, what like

383
00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:02,879
Speaker 3: nine times out of ten, if you catch it early,

384
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,040
Speaker 3: then that will that will work right there.

385
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:11,480
Speaker 1: So they're so persistent with that assertion that if you

386
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,760
Speaker 1: find a tick on yourself and you live in an

387
00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,760
Speaker 1: area where lime disease is known to thrive, if you

388
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:20,840
Speaker 1: can't say how long that tick's been on you, they're

389
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:25,120
Speaker 1: probably just going to give you a round of antibiotics portolactically. Yeah.

390
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,520
Speaker 1: And again, like you said, in a lot of cases,

391
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Speaker 1: and I believe, from what I've read, the vast majority

392
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Speaker 1: of cases in early stage lime disease, that round of

393
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:37,040
Speaker 1: antibiotics should work.

394
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, And they say that if you and This is

395
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:44,120
Speaker 3: from the American Lime Diesus Foundation quote. If you live

396
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:49,760
Speaker 3: in an endemic area, have symptoms consistent with early lime disease,

397
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,720
Speaker 3: and suspect recent exposure to a tick, present your suspicion

398
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,879
Speaker 3: to your doctor so that he or she may make

399
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:56,400
Speaker 3: a more informed diagnosis.

400
00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,679
Speaker 1: So show up to your doctor and say, yeah, madam,

401
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,800
Speaker 1: I would love to present my suspicions to you. Please

402
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:03,280
Speaker 1: sit down.

403
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:05,480
Speaker 3: Well, they're saying sort of, still, you still sort of

404
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,879
Speaker 3: need to be your own advocate because it is so

405
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,439
Speaker 3: hard to diagnose. Still, because if you're going on symptoms alone,

406
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,200
Speaker 3: like we said, there are hundreds of things that share

407
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 3: those symptoms and lime disease may not be the first

408
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:17,879
Speaker 3: thing they think of.

409
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,720
Speaker 1: That's a huge problem with lime disease. Another huge problem

410
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,720
Speaker 1: is that the test we use to test for lime

411
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 1: disease doesn't actually test for the b burgdorfree bacteria. It

412
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 1: tests for the antibodies that should be present in your

413
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 1: bloodstream if you have a bacterial infection, not even specific

414
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,159
Speaker 1: to that one, but a bacterial infection. The problem is

415
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 1: it takes days, if not maybe a week or two

416
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 1: before your body mounts an effective immune response against this infection.

417
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 1: So if you find a tick and they give you

418
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,480
Speaker 1: a test, say within the first couple of days, it's

419
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 1: going to come back negative. Even though you very much

420
00:22:56,040 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 1: have a Burgdor free infection, it's going to come negative

421
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,400
Speaker 1: because it's the antibodies haven't been created yet. The other

422
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 1: part of the problem is even if you take a

423
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:12,159
Speaker 1: blood test that tests directly for the Burgdor free bacterium,

424
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,439
Speaker 1: it moves out of the blood stream really easily and

425
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,160
Speaker 1: within its several days. So there's a very brief window

426
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 1: of time where you can directly test for the Burgdor

427
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,479
Speaker 1: free bacteria and find it in a simple blood test.

428
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can also get false positives, and they're advocating

429
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 3: now for two tiered testing for confirmation of the diagnosis.

430
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,440
Speaker 3: So if you get that first positive test sometimes now

431
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 3: you'll get a different test, a Western block test, right,

432
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 3: that's gonna really get more specific to that antibody, not

433
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:45,160
Speaker 3: just the general antibodies.

434
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 1: Right. So part of the other problem is the reason

435
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 1: a lot of patient activists and patient advocate groups say no, doctors,

436
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:57,679
Speaker 1: you're wrong, like this is not good enough, is that

437
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 1: there's a sneaking suspicion among people who have what's called

438
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:07,160
Speaker 1: chronic lime or post treatment lime disease syndrome is that

439
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 1: the round of antibiotics, the two to four week round

440
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 1: of antibiotics that seemingly cured the lime disease symptoms, that

441
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:20,200
Speaker 1: you had actually failed to fully knock out the bacteria

442
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 1: that created this infection, that created this lime disease in

443
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 1: the first place, that it just burrowed further into your body.

444
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,679
Speaker 1: And because the medical establishment said we got it, it's fine,

445
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 1: these antibiotics cured it and didn't go deeper, that bacterial

446
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 1: infection is allowed to fester and then present in worse

447
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 1: ways later.

448
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's a really big deal because you know

449
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,160
Speaker 3: what will happen is they'll say, you're cured. We gave

450
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 3: these antibiotics. They worked. But weeks and months and even

451
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 3: years later, when people have persistent fatigue and muscle aches

452
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 3: and headaches and you know, like your knee joints hurt,

453
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 3: they said, like a brain full can happen. And these

454
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 3: are all things that are I don't want to say generic,

455
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 3: but if you walk into your doctor and say I

456
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,160
Speaker 3: feel like I'm fuzzy and I have a brain fog

457
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 3: and get headaches and I'm tired, it's sort of a

458
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 3: wide it's hard to pinpoint what's going on. Sure, and

459
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 3: they think you're cured of the lime disease. So that's

460
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 3: where some of the more dismissive, at least from the

461
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 3: lime disease community. They're saying, like, I have this chronic issue,

462
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 3: and they're saying, but no, there's no such thing as

463
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 3: a chronic issue. Right.

464
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: Well, they're also saying like, look, we gave you a

465
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,199
Speaker 1: test for lime disease and you came back negative. Right

466
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: you know, we know you had it before we tested you.

467
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 1: We came back positive, We treat you with antibiotics. Now

468
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: we've tested you again and it's coming back negative. You

469
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 1: don't have lime disease anymore. So there's a huge debate

470
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,919
Speaker 1: whether they're the antibiotic course is not enough and that

471
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 1: the lime disease is persisting elsewhere in the body, and

472
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: that maybe it's changed its form so that it won't

473
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: show up on the tests like it should, or there's

474
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 1: remnants of it. I saw one article that suggested that

475
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: the cell wall from the spiro keat the brigdor free

476
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 1: spiro keet can remain even after the thing's dead and

477
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 1: persistent joint tissue and cause an immune response there, which

478
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: would explain this long term arthritis is like a post

479
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 1: treatment line disease syndrome symptom. Or is it that it

480
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 1: converts into an entirely different disease, like an autoimmune disorder.

481
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, some people think that it could trigger an autoimmune

482
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,959
Speaker 3: response and the infection's gone, and this is what's happening

483
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 3: later on. Is you have this autoimmune response, it can

484
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 3: lead to other things like rheumatic heart disease. I think

485
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,880
Speaker 3: we do we cover Keon Bear syndrome or just talk

486
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 3: about it in different episodes.

487
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: We've talked about it, and I think if I remember

488
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 1: correctly as Gia Barre.

489
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 3: GiB, I'm pretty sure.

490
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, we could both be wearing the apron for this

491
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 1: one though.

492
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 3: Well, we'll split it up. I get the doer half.

493
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 1: All right, I get the top half. I'm porky pigging

494
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 1: it all right.

495
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 3: I'm going to just cover my bits down there. But

496
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,360
Speaker 3: regardless of what's happening, what people know is is that

497
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 3: they don't feel right, and it's extremely frustrating to feel

498
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 3: these symptoms months and years later and not be taken

499
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 3: seriously in a doctor's office.

500
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, so a lot of people are saying that these

501
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: this course of antimbiotics shouldn't be two to four weeks,

502
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 1: it should be many months, because you really need to

503
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: get all of the spiral keet out of there or

504
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 1: else it's going to persist and you're going to have

505
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: big problems. And then the medical establishment is saying, like

506
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: what you're talking about doesn't even exist. So there's a

507
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 1: lot of frustration that you're saying a big disconnect, and

508
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 1: this is something that is probably going to keep playing out,

509
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 1: although it seems like it may be on its way

510
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: out because of the epidemic proportions line is taking now

511
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 1: in the United States.

512
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, the statistics are mounting up such that

513
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 3: it can't be ignored any longer. Not that it was ignored,

514
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 3: but you know that's probably a harsh statement, but it's

515
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 3: being taken away more seriously now.

516
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw something like there's an expectation that there's

517
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 1: going to be something like three hundred to four hundred

518
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 1: thousand new cases of lime disease in the United States alone,

519
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 1: and that ten to twenty percent of those patients will

520
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 1: end up with chronic lime disease.

521
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, I spend a fair amount of time

522
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 3: hiking around the woods with my dogs and have pulled

523
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 3: plenty of ticks off of them and plenty of ticks

524
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 3: off of myself. And I have fatigue a lot because

525
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 3: I have a four year old and every now and

526
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 3: then I'm like, do I have lime disease?

527
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: Well? Probably not, And here's why.

528
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 3: Well, I've never had the bulls eye. First of all, okay,

529
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 3: that's a big one.

530
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: But also the ticks you pull off of your dog,

531
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: those are dog ticks. They do not transmit lime. It's

532
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: specifically the long late or black legged tick, which is

533
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: a type of deer tick.

534
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 3: Well, but here's the thing. There are plenty of deer

535
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 3: ticks in the woods. Are you saying that they if

536
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 3: they would not latch onto a dog, and they'd be.

537
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: Like, ooh, no, I don't know. I don't know, because

538
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: there's deer ticks all over the woods. Sure, there definitely are.

539
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: I don't know if deer ticks will latch onto a dog.

540
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: It's entirely possible they won't, since there's such a differentiation

541
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: between dog ticks and deer ticks. But I do know

542
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: that dog ticks don't transmit lime.

543
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 3: Well, I think we should talk about my favorite thing

544
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 3: from the ticks episode, And this is one I will

545
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 3: lay on people from time to time is remember how

546
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 3: ticks attach themselves. Sure, they just hang out on blades

547
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 3: of grass and things and just snap their little claws constantly,

548
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 3: just waiting for something to pass by.

549
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: Yet they think can latch onto, right, they sense the

550
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: co two of the mammal that's walking past.

551
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 3: So interesting and chuck.

552
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: One thing I read is that somehow the lime lime

553
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: infected ticks because they're infect of themselves. Lime resides as

554
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: in like small mammals and rodents as a reservoir. Yeah,

555
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: they are infected, but they don't have symptoms. Ticks get

556
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 1: infected with this stuff and they're just passing it along.

557
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: It's not like they're the ultimate source of lime disease.

558
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 3: No, ticks are misunderstood.

559
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: They're really great, right, But from what I saw, the

560
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: ticks that are infected with the lime bacteria are actually

561
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: better at finding hosts than non infected ticks. Like it

562
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: somehow enables them to be better parasites. It's interesting.

563
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, that sounds familiar. Did we cover that or do

564
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 3: I just know that?

565
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: Because I don't, I don't remember, but I do I

566
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: remember you talking about in the Tics episode about how

567
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: they wave their arms in the air when somebody passed by,

568
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: and I remember one of our listeners made some art

569
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: of that. We got to find it.

570
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 3: That's right. And from snapping their little fingers on a

571
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 3: blade of grass to my dog's but to my scrotum,

572
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 3: it's quite a to ride.

573
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 1: It's a wild ride.

574
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 3: And then to Emily eventually plucking that thing out for me,

575
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 3: that's nice, gotta that's what marriage is all about, folks.

576
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, you just have your forearm thrust across your eyes.

577
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: You're like, get it out, get it out.

578
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 3: Uh. So let's take another break. Okay, we'll talk a

579
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 3: little bit about prevention and then a little bit about

580
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 3: some very recent interesting wacky things going on in Congress

581
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 3: about lime disease as a bio weapon.

582
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, Chuck, you talked about prevention. How do you

583
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: keep from having to have a tick pulled from your crotch?

584
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 3: Don't ever go into mother Nature. Just stay in your

585
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 3: mid century modern home with tiled floors, and don't go

586
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 3: into the woods. Sounds delicious, No, I love the woods.

587
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 3: You love the woods? Right? Yeah?

588
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love watching the Woods on television.

589
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, from your midcentury house.

590
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: No, I do. I love the woods myself.

591
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm just kidding, get in the woods, but they

592
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 3: recommend things like deet. I don't use that stuff on

593
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 3: my own body, but some people will say put that

594
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 3: all over your body and put it on your clothes,

595
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 3: and put it on your socks and shoes and.

596
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: Just walk around spring a cloud of it around you

597
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 1: constantly while you're in the woods.

598
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 3: What I do is I just check for ticks.

599
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, a good thing to do, Seriously, it looks super dorky,

600
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: but what do you care is to tuck your pant

601
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: legs into your socks. Yeah, sure, when and then when

602
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: you come out, like wear light colors too, because you

603
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 1: can see the ticks a lot more easily. And then

604
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: when you when you come out of the woods, take

605
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: your clothes off and take a shower as soon as

606
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: you can, and just inspect yourself. Inspect you're growing your armpits,

607
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 1: your scalp. Part of the problem with lime disease, though,

608
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: is remember you get it from TIMPs? Do you get

609
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: it from ticks in the nymph stage which are really

610
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 1: really small. So you've got to check really really well

611
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 1: to see if you have that tick on you.

612
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, and just while you're at it, take off the

613
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 3: adult tics as well. Yeah, don't don't just leave those

614
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 3: and check your dogs. You know, you check your dogs

615
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 3: under their haunches, like on the armpit of their legs

616
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 3: whatever that's called their leg pits. Check behind their ears,

617
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 3: check under their collars, because ticks are trying to you know,

618
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 3: they're not going to hang out just like on the

619
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 3: top of their back. They may start there, but they're

620
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 3: going to try and find a place that's dark and

621
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 3: warm and out of view.

622
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't mean to say you can't get lime

623
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: disease from an adult chuck. It's just that the nymphs

624
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: are far more likely to eat on a human than

625
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: an adult is. But a lime infected adult tick will

626
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: transmit sure lyn to you too.

627
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 3: For sure, A very important distinction. So now we move

628
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:17,399
Speaker 3: on to the US Congress. Very recently, about a month ago,

629
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 3: end of July. I think, yeah, there was a US

630
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 3: House rep named Chris Smith, a Republican out of New Jersey,

631
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 3: who introduced legislation that said, hey, Department of Defense, you

632
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 3: should review these claims that I'm seeing that our own

633
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 3: Pentagon researched using tics to spread lime disease as a

634
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 3: bioweapon in the mid twentieth century. I'm reading a lot

635
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,800
Speaker 3: about this in books and articles that we did research

636
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 3: on Plumb Island and and other insects too, not just ticks,

637
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 3: of turning them into bioweapons, and this thing passed. And

638
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 3: a lot of this comes from a book written by

639
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 3: Chris Newby called Bitten Colon The Secret History of Lime

640
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 3: Disease and Biological Weapons.

641
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 1: And this book, like I think Chris Smith, the representative

642
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: from New Jersey said, like, this book really inspired me

643
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 1: to take up this legislation. But in the book, Newby

644
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: basically says, the government at Fort Dietrich, Maryland, and on

645
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,399
Speaker 1: Plum Island, New York, before it was turned into an

646
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 1: animal disease research center, we're doing.

647
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 3: It was an insect disease research center before that, I guess.

648
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:31,280
Speaker 1: They were looking into well, they definitely were doing biowarfare

649
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 1: research there.

650
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 3: Early early nineteen fifties, Yeah.

651
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 1: And then Fort Dietrich for however long if they're not

652
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,720
Speaker 1: still doing it now, But they were apparently looking into

653
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: ticks as delivery systems for biological weapons.

654
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 3: Yeah.

655
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: I couldn't find that that is actually verified, but I

656
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 1: find that highly believable. But what Newby is saying is

657
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: they were doing that research and then the way we

658
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 1: got line diseases, whatever research they were coming up with, escaped,

659
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 1: say a tick attached to a bird that flew off

660
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 1: of Plumb Island and landed in the area around Lyme, Connecticut,

661
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 1: and these ticks got off and they started to breed

662
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,479
Speaker 1: and they became endemic in this area. And that's where

663
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 1: lime disease came from. There was actually a biological weapon

664
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 1: that was produced and then inadvertently, probably not purposefully released

665
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 1: into the larger population in the northeast.

666
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,760
Speaker 3: Yeah. So here's my question. I haven't read the book,

667
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 3: but are they saying that that we created lime disease

668
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 3: or that we just weaponized it, because those are two

669
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 3: very different things.

670
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't know what she's saying either, and I

671
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:50,839
Speaker 1: think she stopped short of saying that, but that it's

672
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 1: implied that if you put two and two together, the

673
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 1: government was looking into biological warfare and they were talking about,

674
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 1: you know, using ticks at some point, and you know,

675
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: it's really close to this ground zero of where the

676
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,879
Speaker 1: tick epidemic began. You put two and two together, that's

677
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 1: the impression I have is that she didn't actually come

678
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 1: out and say it, but that she lets the readers

679
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: surmise for themselves, which is the problem.

680
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,760
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, that's very easy to disprove if she's

681
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 3: actually claiming that they created lime disease, because we just

682
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 3: got through saying it was in who was the Mummy Utsi?

683
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 3: It was in Utsi years ago over in the Alps. Well, true,

684
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 3: but it also in the United States. I mean, it

685
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 3: came around in the We first discovered it that in

686
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 3: nineteen seventies, and like several different places. It wasn't just

687
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 3: lime Connecticut. They found it in California, right, And you

688
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 3: can't just that just it doesn't add up that it

689
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 3: would be popping up in all these random places if

690
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 3: it escaped from Long Island Sound in nineteen fifty three.

691
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: Right, which I think somebody who subscribed to this conspiracy

692
00:37:58,040 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: theory and is very much what it is, is a

693
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 1: conspiracy theory that well, then the release wasn't purpose or accidental.

694
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: It was purposeful that they spread it around the northeast

695
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 1: California and then Spooner, Wisconsin, which supposedly is the actual

696
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 1: place where the first case of lime disease was described

697
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 1: in the United States in nineteen sixty nine. Yeah, about

698
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:24,240
Speaker 1: six years before this cluster of juvenile arthritis cases popped

699
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 1: up in old Lime Lime in East HadAM.

700
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 3: Well, it's a very bad idea if that's what went on,

701
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 3: because you have to depend on a lot of things,

702
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 3: which is A these tics definitely finding their way to

703
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 3: the enemy. B they attached to the enemy successfully and

704
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 3: transmit the disease. And then what does it transmit? A

705
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 3: very slow acting disease that will give people headaches and

706
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 3: fatigue over the course of a long time.

707
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 1: Right, that also produces a one of a kind, telltale rash,

708
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 1: Right that tells you, supposedly in plenty of time that

709
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 1: you have this this disease that needs to be treated

710
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:07,800
Speaker 1: with a simple course of oral antibiotics.

711
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it has to be probably in the country.

712
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 3: They don't thrive well in the city, right, So it's

713
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 3: just it doesn't make a good biological weapon.

714
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,919
Speaker 1: No. And then again people who subscribed as conspiracy theory say, well,

715
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: they can't all be winners. But maybe it was just

716
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:23,919
Speaker 1: something they were experimenting with and it wasn't very good.

717
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 3: Trust me. I mean, we've done enough research on stuff

718
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,399
Speaker 3: our American government used to do and continue to do that.

719
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:31,760
Speaker 3: It's not the most outlandish thing in the world.

720
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 1: No, it's not. And that's also why Chris Smith, the

721
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 1: representative from New Jersey, shouldn't just be dismissed out of

722
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: hand because it's entirely plausible. It's yeah, it's not just

723
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 1: a complete wacko idea.

724
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 3: Right.

725
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 1: The other reason Christmis shouldn't just be dismissed out of

726
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 1: hand is because he is a true lime warrior. He

727
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 1: introduced other legislation called the Tick Act, and of course

728
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:58,399
Speaker 1: he had to make tick an achronism, that an acronym,

729
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 1: not a an acronism, stand for the Ticks Colon, Identify

730
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 1: Control and Knockout Act. He was really grasping like a

731
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 1: tick on a blade of grass with that one.

732
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 3: But the point is, but knockout's not one word unless

733
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 3: you use it as knockout.

734
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,839
Speaker 1: Well, that's what he's saying, I guess, because the work

735
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 1: goes act. But it would create an additional one hundred

736
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 1: and eighty million dollars in federal funding for lime disease research,

737
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 1: sorely needed.

738
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 3: Right now, that's awesome. I didn't know you was such

739
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 3: an advocate. That's good.

740
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 1: He really is. He hates lime disease like like a lot.

741
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 3: I was about to say something, but I wish I.

742
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: Could take a pill that would bulk up my analogy

743
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 1: region in my brain.

744
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 3: Oh, your analogies are great.

745
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 1: What were you going to say? I want to know

746
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 1: we can beep it off.

747
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 3: And I was going to get political. I was going

748
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 3: to say, he hates ticks like he hates Okay, can

749
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 3: we leave that and bleep it. I don't know, we'll

750
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:57,879
Speaker 3: find out, all right.

751
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 1: So the whole idea that it's a bioweapon almost certainly

752
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 1: not the case, right, but it makes for good press.

753
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 1: I mean, like if you look up like lyme disease

754
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 1: and bioweapon. There is a lot of recent articles written

755
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,359
Speaker 1: on it. Just because a member of Congress introduced this legislation.

756
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: What a lot of people are saying is, look, it

757
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 1: makes sense, like this conspiracy theory that people would go

758
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 1: to that. But on at the same time, there's another

759
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 1: really great explanation for it, and it's climate change that

760
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: this whole thing came about in the seventies, because we're

761
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: starting to see what was called the first epidemic from

762
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,280
Speaker 1: climate change, and there's this really great article on Aon,

763
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 1: which is a great website by Mary Beth Pfeiffer spells

764
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 1: it like Michelle Pfiffer with the p called ticks Rising,

765
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 1: and she's an investigative reporter of science journalists who really

766
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 1: went to a lot of trouble to explain how climate

767
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:03,840
Speaker 1: change has created a new world for ticks and we

768
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 1: are now living in it.

769
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, in twenty fourteen, the EPA actually started

770
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 3: to use four new indicators about what's going on with

771
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 3: climate change and the impact, and one of them was

772
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 3: the spread of lime disease. So like the EPA officially

773
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 3: uses that as a factor in an indicator in determining

774
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,280
Speaker 3: the impact of climate change now right.

775
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 1: And so the whole basis of this idea is that

776
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 1: because of warmer weather, ticks are being killed off in

777
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 1: far fewer numbers from over the winter, so they're surviving

778
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:41,479
Speaker 1: longer as it gets warmer and warmer, higher and higher

779
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:45,359
Speaker 1: up their range is spreading rather rapidly. Oh yeah, and

780
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 1: wherever these tics go, lime disease is game to go

781
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 1: with them. So the spread of lime disease is increasing

782
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 1: as the spread of ticks is increasing too, And ticks

783
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: have gotten totally out of hand in some areas. In

784
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:02,400
Speaker 1: that same Aon article, well, Mary Beth Pfeiffer was talking

785
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 1: about how moose are dying in their thousands in like

786
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 1: Wisconsin and the Dakotas because they're being bled to death

787
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 1: by one hundred thousand ticks at once.

788
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 3: It's amazing that.

789
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 1: Never happened before. And now all of a sudden, it's

790
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 1: kind of becoming routine because the ticks aren't dying off

791
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 1: in the winter like they're supposed to. And again it's

792
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 1: because of climate change. And then in the Northeast, Chuck,

793
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why there's been this explosion of

794
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 1: ticks is because there's been an explosion of deer to

795
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:35,320
Speaker 1: support the tick population.

796
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 3: Sure, back in the day, there were things like mountain lions,

797
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 3: and there were predators that would help control the deer population. Yeah, wolves, wolves.

798
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 3: They are even suggesting reintroducing wolves to help control the

799
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:48,280
Speaker 3: deer population.

800
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you can bet that's going to happen.

801
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 3: No really, no, I mean do you think so? Yeah?

802
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,359
Speaker 1: Totally. Like if three hundred thousand people a year are

803
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: coming down with lime in the United States, they're going

804
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 1: to are reintroducing wolves to combat if it has even

805
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:04,320
Speaker 1: a half of a chance.

806
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 3: I'd be interested to see if that happens for sure,

807
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 3: because humans are going to want to hunt those wolves.

808
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it just brings it out in us

809
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 1: for some reason. Huh.

810
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:18,760
Speaker 3: Well, I mean they hunted the mountain lions, right.

811
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 1: But I think that's the idea of oh wait a minute,

812
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 1: really weird and circuit as bad things happen when we

813
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 1: overhunt mountain lions and wolves, maybe when we reintroduce them,

814
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,240
Speaker 1: we won't have to, you know, or we won't follow

815
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:37,800
Speaker 1: that impulse. We'll just let nature take its course.

816
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:38,399
Speaker 3: Right.

817
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:41,240
Speaker 1: Who knows you got anything else? Man?

818
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 3: I got nothing else.

819
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:47,320
Speaker 1: So there's a solution around antibiotics and some wolves, and

820
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 1: that'll cure what ails us.

821
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, advocate for yourself still, people, sure, and the.

822
00:44:53,120 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 1: Wolves be persistent. That's good advice for everything. Chuck agreed. Everything.

823
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 1: There's certainly cases where persistence is not a good idea,

824
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: But you.

825
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 3: Know what I'm saying, right, I do know.

826
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 1: Okay. If you want to know more about lyme disease,

827
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 1: go check out all of the articles they are to read.

828
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,479
Speaker 1: And again, go check out the aon article by Mary

829
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 1: Beth fight for It's really interesting and since I said

830
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 1: it's interesting, that means it's time for listener mayil.

831
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 3: I'm going to call this neat story about how great

832
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 3: stuff you should know listeners are. Oh, I like that

833
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 3: from Portland, Maine. Hey, guys, my wife, daughter and I

834
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 3: all stuff you should know listeners for years. Decided last

835
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,760
Speaker 3: minute to buy tickets to the show while on vacation

836
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:41,240
Speaker 3: at Old Orchard Beach, Maine, just a short drive south

837
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 3: of Portland. We had nosebleed seats, naturally because we waited

838
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,839
Speaker 3: until just an hour before showtime, and that was more

839
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 3: than cool by us, and we were totally stoked just

840
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 3: to be there, whatever the seats. When we got to

841
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 3: our balcony seats, a friendly fellow named Matt approached us,

842
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 3: said he had three tickets for orchestra seats and asked

843
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 3: if we'd like them. Tickets were intended for friends of

844
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 3: his who were stuck in labor day weekend traffic couldn't

845
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 3: make it to the show. Turns out he had been

846
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 3: scouting the crowd for forty minutes looking for a group

847
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 3: of three, even in listening to the help of the

848
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 3: ushers to find three people together, and we were the

849
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 3: first group that he saw. Brief walked downstairs and there

850
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 3: we were three rows from the stage for the supremely

851
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 3: excellent show about podcast topic red acted. Thanks to Matt

852
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 3: and his friends being stuck in traffic, we went from

853
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 3: not having tickets an hour before showtime to having third

854
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,280
Speaker 3: row ten minutes before you guys took stage. We considered

855
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:37,839
Speaker 3: it a little piece of true magic. So while I'm

856
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 3: confident this lengthy setup and telling you the story is

857
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 3: way too long for the air, no, not true, Richard Clark,

858
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 3: the whole family would be forever grateful if you could

859
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 3: give Matt and the Connecticut groundskeeper a huge thank you

860
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 3: from Rich, Susan and Emily in upstate New York for

861
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 3: sharing those seats with us.

862
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,680
Speaker 1: That is fantastic. I love our shows, man.

863
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 3: It's great. People are so kind. And that is from

864
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 3: Richard Clark, not Dick Clark, but rich Clark.

865
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 1: Oh that's even better. Yeah, Dick Clark's taken.

866
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 3: That's right.

867
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 1: Thank you for rich Clark for recognizing that too.

868
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:09,760
Speaker 3: Yeah.

869
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 1: Thanks for coming to the show, Rich and bringing the family.

870
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 1: And thank you Matt for being such a cool dude.

871
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:18,240
Speaker 1: That was very nice of you. I'm utterly unsurprised because

872
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 1: our fans are pretty great people. Yes, okay, Well, if

873
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Speaker 1: you want to get in touch with us, you can

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Speaker 1: go on to stuff you Should Know dot com and

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Speaker 1: you can send us tweet or a Insta post or

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Speaker 1: a comment or what have you, that kind of thing

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Speaker 1: because all of our social links are there. Or you

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Speaker 1: can just do it the old fashioned way and send

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Speaker 1: an email, wrap it up, spank it on the bottom,

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Speaker 1: and send it off to stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.

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Speaker 2: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

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Speaker 2: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.