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Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and

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Speaker 1: we have a quick update.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

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Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

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Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

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Speaker 2: didn't remember.

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Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so

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Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping

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Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most

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Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to

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Speaker 1: gain value from them.

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Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

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Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.

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Speaker 3: Just as much.

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Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

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Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

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Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,

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Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You

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Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website.

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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,

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Speaker 1: I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapists advice

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Speaker 1: column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 3: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 3: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you

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Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help

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Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 3: So sit back and welcome to today's session.

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Speaker 1: This week, a man struggles with guilt over how much

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Speaker 1: he should take care of his aging parents despite their

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Speaker 1: abuse growing up.

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Speaker 4: He called us names, He told us we were worthless,

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Speaker 4: you know, like the physical abuse, like spitting in my face.

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Speaker 5: And he's just like, I don't remember that.

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Speaker 4: I was just like, Okay, well, I don't even need

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Speaker 4: to try anymore because you're going to continue with this behavior,

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Speaker 4: and I just I don't want to be part of that.

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Speaker 1: First a quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.

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Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is

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Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 1: Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,

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Speaker 1: or other qualified health provider with any questions you may

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Speaker 1: have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 1: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part

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Speaker 1: or in full, and we may edit it for length

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Speaker 1: and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All names have

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Speaker 1: been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Lourie, Hi guy. So what do we have in

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Speaker 3: our mailbooks today?

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Speaker 1: Today we have a letter about this tricky question of

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Speaker 1: what do we owe our parents as adults if they

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Speaker 1: haven't been the parents that we want it? And it

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Speaker 1: goes like this, Dear therapists, I'm hoping that you can

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Speaker 1: help me with an issue involving my relationship with my parents.

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Speaker 1: I'm forty two years old and was raised in an alcoholic,

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Speaker 1: abusive home. My brother and I were physically abused, but

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Speaker 1: we were verbally abused and demeaned much more regularly. The

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Speaker 1: most significant moment in my youth that haunts me is

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Speaker 1: when I was around twelve or thirteen years old, and

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Speaker 1: my father snorted a bunch of mucus and spat in

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Speaker 1: my face because he thought I locked his keys in

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Speaker 1: the car, which I had not done. I was called worthless, stupid, etc.

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Speaker 1: Frequently after a divorce from my first wife, I saw counseling,

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Speaker 1: which was tremendously helpful. I even took the opportunity to

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Speaker 1: talk to my parents about some of the things that

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Speaker 1: bothered me, but that discussion didn't lead to any acknowledgment

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Speaker 1: on their behalf. My father continues to drink excessively and

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Speaker 1: my parents' relationship has not changed. I see them about

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Speaker 1: four to five times a year at my house, only

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Speaker 1: it's always a stressful time for me, no matter how brief.

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Speaker 1: My biggest struggle is that I love them simply because

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Speaker 1: they are my parents. That's where it ends. We aren't close,

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Speaker 1: and I don't feel a strong attachment to them in

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Speaker 1: any way. Troubled by the fact that my father was

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Speaker 1: in the hospital recently with a significant health problem that

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Speaker 1: led to surgery, and only when he called me to

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Speaker 1: tell me how it went, had I realized that it

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Speaker 1: never occurred to me to call and see how he

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Speaker 1: was doing it. Wasn't a conscious neglect. It just wasn't

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Speaker 1: even on my mind. As they are getting older and

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Speaker 1: their health is failing, it bothers me that I have

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Speaker 1: no strong desire to maintain a meaningful relationship. Worse, the

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Speaker 1: same behaviors alcoholism and drugs have manifested themselves in my brother,

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Speaker 1: and those behaviors are affecting my desire to have any

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Speaker 1: meaningful relationship with him. Can you help me navigate this?

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Speaker 1: Thanks Jason.

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Speaker 3: This letter brings up such an important question, and that is,

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Speaker 3: when you have parents who've failed you in certain ways

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Speaker 3: and you don't have a good relationship with them, then

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Speaker 3: you might take distance from them as a way to

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Speaker 3: protect yourself, as a way to really not allow them

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Speaker 3: to hurt you anymore. But at the same time, you

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Speaker 3: might feel bad about doing that, because in our society

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Speaker 3: supposed to be loyal to parents and close to parents.

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Speaker 3: That it might make you feel like a very bad person,

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Speaker 3: even though that might be the healthiest choice for you.

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Speaker 1: That's right. I think on the one hand, he's dealing

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Speaker 1: with some guilt around not being a good son, and

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Speaker 1: on the other hand, I think there's just this sadness

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Speaker 1: that people have when they realize as adults that not

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Speaker 1: only did they not really feel an attachment to their

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Speaker 1: parents when they were young, but that they're never going

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Speaker 1: to feel that and it makes them feel a little

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Speaker 1: bit like orphans. He says, I love them. I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure that he even feels love. I think that's something

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Speaker 1: that he wants to feel but doesn't. And now he's

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Speaker 1: lost not only his parents, but he's lost a sibling too.

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Speaker 3: That's right, and it raises the next question of then,

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Speaker 3: who is your family right now? And do you have one?

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Speaker 3: So let's go talk to him and find out more

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Speaker 3: about where he is with all this.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapists for My Heart Radio. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back after a short break.

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Speaker 3: I'm Laurie Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is Theotherapists.

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Speaker 3: So Hi, Jason, Hey, Laurie, Hey Guy, Hi, and thank

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Speaker 3: you for coming on a show.

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Speaker 5: Oh, no problem, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 3: Just tell us a little bit about what it is

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Speaker 3: specifically that makes you feel bad when you think about

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Speaker 3: your parents because you say that you're not really close

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Speaker 3: to them on the one hand, but you feel bad

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Speaker 3: about it on the other. Could you tell us a

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Speaker 3: little bit more about what that is.

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Speaker 4: I think that as I've gotten older, I just I've

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Speaker 4: become very aware of the fact that I don't feel

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Speaker 4: close to my parents. I don't necessarily seek out a

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Speaker 4: relationship with them. What little relationship I do have almost

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Speaker 4: comes from a sense of a feeling of obligation like

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Speaker 4: that my parents, I probably should reach out to them,

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Speaker 4: but not something that.

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Speaker 5: That occurs to me on a regular basis.

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Speaker 4: When I have things in my life that are big,

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Speaker 4: monumental things or struggles or celebrations all those things, I'm

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Speaker 4: just very aware of the fact that I don't really

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Speaker 4: reach out to include them or celebrate with them that

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Speaker 4: sort of thing. And my dad was sick in the hospital,

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Speaker 4: and it didn't occur to me to kind of call

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Speaker 4: and check up on him afterwards, and he called me

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Speaker 4: to tell me how he was doing, and it just

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Speaker 4: kind of hit me upside the head, like, oh, my gosh,

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Speaker 4: my dad was in the hospital and was incredibly ill,

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Speaker 4: and it just didn't even occur to me. Like I

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Speaker 4: want to say, I wasn't concerned about him, but I

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Speaker 4: just didn't have the desire. I shouldn't say that the

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Speaker 4: inclination to reach out to keep in touch, to see

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Speaker 4: how he was doing through that whole thing, you know,

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Speaker 4: and when.

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Speaker 3: It hit you upside the head, what feelings did that

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Speaker 3: bring up when you had that insight.

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Speaker 4: But I definitely felt guilty that he was in such

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Speaker 4: bad shape and it didn't occur to me. But I

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Speaker 4: was sad too, Like guys, you know, I have friends

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Speaker 4: that have such great relationships with their parents and I've

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Speaker 4: never had that.

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Speaker 5: And yeah, I was just I was sad more than anything.

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Speaker 4: I think that I just didn't feel that sense to

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Speaker 4: really kind of check on him and see how he

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Speaker 4: was doing.

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Speaker 5: And yeah, guilt, but sadness for sure.

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Speaker 1: I think the sadness is such a big part of this.

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Speaker 1: It's like grieving something that you never had. Yeah, tell

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Speaker 1: us a little bit about what it was like when

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Speaker 1: you were with your parents growing up, and tell us

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Speaker 1: what it's been like when you've been around them as

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Speaker 1: an adult.

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Speaker 4: Okay, my dad is an alcoholic still. He came from

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Speaker 4: a very violent and dysfunctional home in the sense that

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Speaker 4: my grandfather was a World War two vet that had

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Speaker 4: a lot of problems and he grew up my dad

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Speaker 4: grew up in a very abusive household, and that led

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Speaker 4: to him being an alcoholic. My brother and I, you know,

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Speaker 4: witnessed my parents fighting horribly and my mom smacking my

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Speaker 4: dad and my dad just being horribly abusive verbally to

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Speaker 4: my mom and just really nasty and hateful.

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Speaker 1: What would you and your brother do when you were

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Speaker 1: witnessing your parents fighting like this.

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Speaker 4: We try to leave, get out of the house, you know,

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Speaker 4: but sometimes we couldn't, and so we just go into

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Speaker 4: our rooms and just try to get away from it.

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Speaker 4: What's the age difference? He is just try three years

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Speaker 4: younger than.

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Speaker 1: Me, So when this would happen, do you remember what

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Speaker 1: it felt like in your body?

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Speaker 4: I remember always feeling tense, and I would say that

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Speaker 4: I probably I felt scared as well, because I remember

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Speaker 4: moment when I was a teenager when my dad was

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Speaker 4: having one of his outbursts, and I remember looking at

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Speaker 4: him and saying like, I'm not afraid of you anymore.

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Speaker 4: And so I think there was a lot of just

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Speaker 4: kind of fear. He just never knew when he was

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Speaker 4: going to explode. It didn't even have to be something

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Speaker 4: that we did. He could be mad at anything and

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Speaker 4: we would take the heat for it. His computer for

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Speaker 4: work wasn't working one time and he just launched into

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Speaker 4: a tirade at us. I mean, he was physically abusive,

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Speaker 4: but he was way worse emotionally abusive. And I think

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Speaker 4: that's the critical piece that has led to me not

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Speaker 4: having a really good relationship because he's always called us

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Speaker 4: such hateful names growing up, and he, I mean he

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Speaker 4: called us worthless and horrible things for as long as

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Speaker 4: I can remember, and so there's like this big conflict

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Speaker 4: between he's my dad, and he can say he loves

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Speaker 4: me and he's proud of me, but always have this

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Speaker 4: dialogue in the background from like, yeah, but for so long,

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Speaker 4: like you told me I was worthless.

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Speaker 1: What did it look like when he would tell you

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Speaker 1: that he was proud of you? At what point did

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Speaker 1: that happen? Did that happen in your childhood or did

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Speaker 1: that happen once you got older and said you weren't

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Speaker 1: afraid of him anymore?

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Speaker 5: Not until I got older.

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Speaker 4: I think when I got out of high school, my

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Speaker 4: brother and I both kind of handled the fallout from

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Speaker 4: our childhood in two different ways. He got more mixed

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Speaker 4: up into drugs and the alcohol, that sort of thing,

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Speaker 4: and I've always been more inclined to achievement, success, to

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Speaker 4: try to establish a sense of worth and value. And

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Speaker 4: so he started saying those things to me as an adult,

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Speaker 4: you know, after I got graduate school, you know, after

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Speaker 4: I was in the military, and those types of things,

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Speaker 4: like with each one of those you know, feathers in

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Speaker 4: my cap kind of thing, he would say that to me.

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Speaker 4: And so I feel like I've always tried for achievement

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Speaker 4: and stuff, looking for that sense of worth and value.

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Speaker 4: But at the same time, when he says it to me,

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Speaker 4: it doesn't it doesn't mean anything.

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Speaker 1: It feels empty.

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Speaker 4: It's just a weird paradox, you know, where I'm just like, yeah,

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Speaker 4: but I don't even I don't even care if you're

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Speaker 4: proud of me.

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Speaker 3: I was the relationship with you guys when you were kids.

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Speaker 4: For a good part of our childhood. We definitely hung

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Speaker 4: out together. And then when I moved away to college,

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Speaker 4: the discrepancy between the way we were leading our lives

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Speaker 4: became so great that for a long time we didn't

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Speaker 4: we didn't really have any relationship.

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Speaker 1: Well, he had to bear the burden of living with

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Speaker 1: your parents by himself without you around once you left.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, and he's he's told me that things got

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Speaker 4: much worse for him after I left.

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Speaker 3: Were you worried about him when you left? Are you

250
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Speaker 3: just so relieved to be at the house that you

251
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Speaker 3: wanted to just go and live your own life?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I was just I was so relieved is to be

254
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Speaker 4: out of the house and not be around it. I

255
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Speaker 4: kind of didn't want any part of the old situation,

256
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Speaker 4: and I think in part that's kind of continue up

257
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Speaker 4: to this day, where I tell my wife all the

258
00:14:29,839 --> 00:14:32,079
Speaker 4: time like I have PTSD from it, Like I have

259
00:14:32,119 --> 00:14:34,599
Speaker 4: no desire to go to their house. I try to

260
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Speaker 4: keep my interactions as little as possible because it just

261
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Speaker 4: brings up all that old stuff. That's it's painful and uncomfortable.

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Speaker 4: I was aware of the bad direction that his life

263
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Speaker 4: was going in, and so there was a number of

264
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Speaker 4: years until he kind of at least became functional. I

265
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Speaker 4: guess as an adult, where we didn't talk much at all.

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Speaker 4: We talk now that you know these days, but it's

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Speaker 4: still it is just not it's not the same.

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Speaker 3: Do you talk about the stuff? Do you talk about

269
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Speaker 3: what happened? Do you talk about your concerns for him,

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Speaker 3: the fact that you took different paths? Do you actually

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Speaker 3: discuss that stuff?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, Actually we talk about my parents quite a bit,

273
00:15:18,559 --> 00:15:23,039
Speaker 4: but we just have I guess, two different approaches and perspectives.

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Speaker 4: He's okay getting together with my parents and drinking excessively,

275
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Speaker 4: and so even though he has expressed to me, you know,

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Speaker 4: hurt feelings and all those types of things, he tells

277
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Speaker 4: me that he's forgiven them and he's moved on from it.

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Speaker 4: But it's almost like it's kind of masked because he

279
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Speaker 4: doesn't go around them unless he's drinking.

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Speaker 3: Have you ever approached that topic of your relationship and

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Speaker 3: how it's been impacted by this.

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Speaker 4: He has made comments to me in the past about

283
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Speaker 4: how I left and it got worse for him, and

284
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Speaker 4: how he felt like he was always living in my

285
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Speaker 4: shadow kind of and he was never good enough and

286
00:16:08,919 --> 00:16:10,399
Speaker 4: he was all being compared to me.

287
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Speaker 1: When something like that happens, where parents do the comparing

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Speaker 1: and they make one sibling feel like they need to

289
00:16:18,599 --> 00:16:21,639
Speaker 1: live up to what the other sibling is doing, the

290
00:16:21,679 --> 00:16:25,239
Speaker 1: irony of that is, instead of that sibling getting angry

291
00:16:25,239 --> 00:16:29,839
Speaker 1: at the parents for creating that situation, that sibling gets

292
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Speaker 1: mad at the person they're being compared to, as if

293
00:16:33,879 --> 00:16:38,199
Speaker 1: it's your fault for being more stable in that time,

294
00:16:38,399 --> 00:16:41,479
Speaker 1: or your fault for achieving something in that time that

295
00:16:41,839 --> 00:16:45,399
Speaker 1: you become the object of resentment even though you're not

296
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Speaker 1: the one doing the comparing. And when you talk about

297
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Speaker 1: your brother having this relationship with your parents where he

298
00:16:55,359 --> 00:17:01,479
Speaker 1: is drinking around them, some people really are so unable

299
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Speaker 1: to grieve what the relationship really is that they want

300
00:17:06,559 --> 00:17:09,719
Speaker 1: to have some connection, and so they create a way

301
00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:14,039
Speaker 1: of connecting with the parents, even if it's a dysfunctional

302
00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:14,879
Speaker 1: way of connecting.

303
00:17:16,439 --> 00:17:21,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, And we've talked about that where

304
00:17:21,719 --> 00:17:25,119
Speaker 4: I express it's difficult for me to be around them

305
00:17:25,159 --> 00:17:29,679
Speaker 4: because of these reasons, and he agrees with me. You know,

306
00:17:29,839 --> 00:17:32,999
Speaker 4: I agree with you one hundred percent. But they're still

307
00:17:33,039 --> 00:17:36,439
Speaker 4: our parents and we have to have a relationship. They're

308
00:17:36,479 --> 00:17:41,039
Speaker 4: our parents, and I don't have any way, I think,

309
00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:43,919
Speaker 4: to get past the walls that have been put there

310
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Speaker 4: by the way we were treated, and so I feel

311
00:17:48,839 --> 00:17:52,239
Speaker 4: like he uses his drinking to get around those walls

312
00:17:52,279 --> 00:17:57,199
Speaker 4: and just kind of pretend like everything's okay. And my

313
00:17:57,279 --> 00:17:59,399
Speaker 4: parents do that as well in their relationship. They just

314
00:17:59,399 --> 00:18:01,119
Speaker 4: pretend like everything's okay, just sweep it.

315
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Speaker 3: Under the rug.

316
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Speaker 5: And I'm not capable of that.

317
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Speaker 3: The other thing that I think might be keeping him

318
00:18:08,919 --> 00:18:12,199
Speaker 3: there right now is that with you out of the picture,

319
00:18:12,479 --> 00:18:15,159
Speaker 3: he's number one now with them. He's the son now

320
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Speaker 3: that they can connect to and he can make up

321
00:18:17,799 --> 00:18:18,759
Speaker 3: for a lot of us time.

322
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Speaker 5: Yeah.

323
00:18:20,959 --> 00:18:23,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, I never thought about like that, but yeah, it

324
00:18:23,679 --> 00:18:25,799
Speaker 4: makes complete sense for sure.

325
00:18:26,279 --> 00:18:29,399
Speaker 1: When you say that everybody in your family pretends like

326
00:18:30,039 --> 00:18:33,399
Speaker 1: nothing's going on. What was it like when you did

327
00:18:33,439 --> 00:18:36,279
Speaker 1: have that conversation that you mentioned in your letter and

328
00:18:36,399 --> 00:18:38,999
Speaker 1: you talk to your parents about some of the things

329
00:18:39,039 --> 00:18:41,519
Speaker 1: that were really painful for you as a child.

330
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Speaker 4: So my dad had asked my brother and I to

331
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Speaker 4: help him with a project at the house, and I

332
00:18:49,599 --> 00:18:51,199
Speaker 4: reluctantly agreed to go.

333
00:18:51,679 --> 00:18:53,599
Speaker 5: And my dad has.

334
00:18:53,519 --> 00:18:58,599
Speaker 4: Just always had a horrible temper, and he just very

335
00:18:58,679 --> 00:19:04,319
Speaker 4: quickly kind of ended up in extreme fit of anger

336
00:19:04,479 --> 00:19:08,239
Speaker 4: and rage about the way things were going. And I

337
00:19:08,239 --> 00:19:10,639
Speaker 4: have my son and my wife were with me, and

338
00:19:10,679 --> 00:19:13,839
Speaker 4: my son was probably three at the time. I told

339
00:19:13,879 --> 00:19:16,439
Speaker 4: my parents when when my son was born, that I

340
00:19:16,559 --> 00:19:20,359
Speaker 4: was not going to tolerate the drinking and that kind

341
00:19:20,399 --> 00:19:23,839
Speaker 4: of behavior around my son, and that if they were

342
00:19:23,879 --> 00:19:26,839
Speaker 4: going to continue to behave that way, they weren't going

343
00:19:26,879 --> 00:19:30,999
Speaker 4: to see him because I wanted to protect him from that,

344
00:19:31,679 --> 00:19:34,719
Speaker 4: and so my son was there. I told my wife

345
00:19:34,719 --> 00:19:36,759
Speaker 4: to keep him in the house while while my brother,

346
00:19:36,839 --> 00:19:38,959
Speaker 4: my dad, and I were in a backyard and my

347
00:19:39,079 --> 00:19:42,879
Speaker 4: dad and my brother just they just started into it,

348
00:19:42,959 --> 00:19:45,439
Speaker 4: screaming at each other its top of their lungs, carrying

349
00:19:45,479 --> 00:19:48,599
Speaker 4: on in each other's faces, like almost to the point

350
00:19:48,599 --> 00:19:51,959
Speaker 4: where they wanted to hit each other. And I turned

351
00:19:51,959 --> 00:19:55,399
Speaker 4: around and my son was standing there, and the look

352
00:19:55,479 --> 00:20:00,679
Speaker 4: on his face, his eyes were wide open, and it's

353
00:20:00,719 --> 00:20:03,879
Speaker 4: like this look of shock and fear. He had never

354
00:20:03,919 --> 00:20:07,279
Speaker 4: seen anything like that before. And so I scooped him

355
00:20:07,319 --> 00:20:10,319
Speaker 4: up and we left. My dad was very upset that

356
00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:12,119
Speaker 4: we left. He felt like we left him hanging with

357
00:20:12,159 --> 00:20:15,159
Speaker 4: the project. And you know, I just told him, I said,

358
00:20:15,319 --> 00:20:17,039
Speaker 4: I told you that I was not going to tolerate

359
00:20:17,079 --> 00:20:19,759
Speaker 4: that kind of stuff around my kid. And I explained

360
00:20:19,799 --> 00:20:22,479
Speaker 4: to him all the things I feel like we're like,

361
00:20:22,559 --> 00:20:25,719
Speaker 4: the biggest issues for me, you know, the drinking, the

362
00:20:25,839 --> 00:20:29,719
Speaker 4: calling us names, and the big incident which I think

363
00:20:29,719 --> 00:20:32,199
Speaker 4: I mentioned to you in the letter, where I was

364
00:20:32,239 --> 00:20:35,319
Speaker 4: a kid and he had asked me to start the

365
00:20:35,319 --> 00:20:38,319
Speaker 4: car for him in the wintertime and there was snow

366
00:20:38,319 --> 00:20:41,919
Speaker 4: on the ground, and I went out and the passenger

367
00:20:41,999 --> 00:20:44,199
Speaker 4: side of the car was parked against the curbs, so

368
00:20:44,679 --> 00:20:47,079
Speaker 4: I just opened the passenger door. I started the car

369
00:20:47,159 --> 00:20:51,039
Speaker 4: for him, went inside. He went out uh to get

370
00:20:51,039 --> 00:20:54,239
Speaker 4: in the car, and the driver's side was locked. And

371
00:20:55,159 --> 00:20:59,119
Speaker 4: I was probably nine or ten, and he went ballistic

372
00:20:59,399 --> 00:21:01,399
Speaker 4: because he thought I locked the keys in his car

373
00:21:01,479 --> 00:21:04,439
Speaker 4: with the key with the car running, and he had

374
00:21:04,439 --> 00:21:07,759
Speaker 4: called trip away to unlock the car. And he's in

375
00:21:07,919 --> 00:21:12,599
Speaker 4: my bedroom screaming at me, right in my face, telling

376
00:21:12,639 --> 00:21:15,199
Speaker 4: me I was stupid, telling me I was worthless. How

377
00:21:15,199 --> 00:21:20,679
Speaker 4: could I do something so ignorant, And then he snorted

378
00:21:20,719 --> 00:21:24,079
Speaker 4: like a big hunk of mucus and spit in my

379
00:21:24,159 --> 00:21:29,519
Speaker 4: face and stormed out. I was watching out my bedroom

380
00:21:29,559 --> 00:21:33,359
Speaker 4: window at the triple a guy trying to open the

381
00:21:33,399 --> 00:21:36,999
Speaker 4: door to my dad's car. And I went downstairs and

382
00:21:36,999 --> 00:21:38,999
Speaker 4: I went outside and I walked up to them and

383
00:21:39,039 --> 00:21:41,599
Speaker 4: I opened the passenger door because that's the door that

384
00:21:41,639 --> 00:21:43,839
Speaker 4: I used, and so it was unlocked the whole time,

385
00:21:45,519 --> 00:21:47,879
Speaker 4: and he just had this like stone look on his face,

386
00:21:47,919 --> 00:21:50,239
Speaker 4: like he couldn't believe that the door was actually unlocked.

387
00:21:50,279 --> 00:21:53,439
Speaker 4: And so after this incident with my brother. You know,

388
00:21:53,599 --> 00:21:55,799
Speaker 4: that was the big thing. I told him one of

389
00:21:55,799 --> 00:21:58,039
Speaker 4: the worst things that ever happened to me as a kid,

390
00:21:58,719 --> 00:22:02,919
Speaker 4: you know. And he responded to my brother and I

391
00:22:03,039 --> 00:22:06,759
Speaker 4: after the conversation by writing like a ten page letter

392
00:22:07,839 --> 00:22:10,199
Speaker 4: and it had zero.

393
00:22:10,279 --> 00:22:15,319
Speaker 5: Accountability for anything that we discussed. It.

394
00:22:14,639 --> 00:22:18,559
Speaker 4: It was like ten pages of here's all the things

395
00:22:18,599 --> 00:22:21,519
Speaker 4: I've done for you, you know, here's all the experiences that

396
00:22:21,559 --> 00:22:23,319
Speaker 4: I gave you, here's this, that and the other thing,

397
00:22:23,399 --> 00:22:28,479
Speaker 4: and zero acknowledgment of all of the.

398
00:22:28,439 --> 00:22:29,399
Speaker 5: Things that we brought up.

399
00:22:29,799 --> 00:22:32,079
Speaker 4: You know that you called us names, you told us

400
00:22:32,079 --> 00:22:35,679
Speaker 4: we were worthless, you know, like physical abuse, like spitting

401
00:22:35,679 --> 00:22:36,319
Speaker 4: in my face.

402
00:22:36,439 --> 00:22:38,319
Speaker 5: Like he's just like, I don't remember that.

403
00:22:40,639 --> 00:22:42,359
Speaker 1: So it was a defense in a denial.

404
00:22:42,759 --> 00:22:44,479
Speaker 5: Yeah.

405
00:22:44,799 --> 00:22:50,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was probably six years ago, seven years ago.

406
00:22:51,839 --> 00:22:54,719
Speaker 4: And so I've always had these moments where I've tried

407
00:22:54,799 --> 00:22:58,039
Speaker 4: to establish relationship, where I've tried to be involved, where

408
00:22:58,039 --> 00:23:00,479
Speaker 4: I feel like that my parents I should be involved,

409
00:23:01,279 --> 00:23:04,639
Speaker 4: and then in the aftermath of that, I brought everything up.

410
00:23:04,679 --> 00:23:07,679
Speaker 4: I've laid it all out there for you, the big

411
00:23:07,719 --> 00:23:10,519
Speaker 4: things that like are so hurtful to me, and then

412
00:23:10,519 --> 00:23:14,239
Speaker 4: to get no acknowledgment or anything that was kind of

413
00:23:14,279 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 4: like to seal the deal for me, where I was

414
00:23:17,199 --> 00:23:19,839
Speaker 4: just like, Okay, well, I don't even need to try anymore,

415
00:23:19,999 --> 00:23:23,079
Speaker 4: because you're going to continue with this behavior. You're going

416
00:23:23,159 --> 00:23:25,919
Speaker 4: to keep drinking, you're going to keep yelling and being belligerent,

417
00:23:25,999 --> 00:23:28,199
Speaker 4: and I just don't I don't want to be part

418
00:23:28,239 --> 00:23:28,399
Speaker 4: of that.

419
00:23:28,799 --> 00:23:28,999
Speaker 5: You know.

420
00:23:30,559 --> 00:23:33,399
Speaker 1: Was your brother a recipient of that letter.

421
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,239
Speaker 5: Too, Yes? Yeah?

422
00:23:35,279 --> 00:23:37,119
Speaker 1: And what was his reaction to the letter?

423
00:23:38,759 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 4: He thought I was junk too. He just I don't

424
00:23:42,399 --> 00:23:43,879
Speaker 4: even remember. I don't remember us.

425
00:23:43,799 --> 00:23:46,399
Speaker 5: Being mad about it. Actually, I remember.

426
00:23:46,239 --> 00:23:48,959
Speaker 4: Feeling really disappointed and just feeling like, what a waste

427
00:23:48,959 --> 00:23:49,359
Speaker 4: of time.

428
00:23:49,559 --> 00:23:51,319
Speaker 1: I just want to stop you there, because I can't

429
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:55,679
Speaker 1: imagine that you wouldn't be angry to get that kind

430
00:23:55,679 --> 00:23:57,719
Speaker 1: of response. And just the way you were talking about

431
00:23:57,759 --> 00:24:04,719
Speaker 1: it a minute ago, Yeah, you seemed really understandably angry

432
00:24:05,159 --> 00:24:10,559
Speaker 1: that you'd been abused your whole life. You say, I

433
00:24:10,559 --> 00:24:14,159
Speaker 1: don't want my child exposed to this, and it happens anyway,

434
00:24:14,679 --> 00:24:17,159
Speaker 1: and then you explain to your father why you left,

435
00:24:17,519 --> 00:24:20,319
Speaker 1: and here are all of these ways in which you'd

436
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:25,039
Speaker 1: been treated so badly, and instead of having compassion for

437
00:24:25,079 --> 00:24:31,599
Speaker 1: you or taking responsibility for what he did. He just denied, deflected,

438
00:24:32,399 --> 00:24:38,039
Speaker 1: quote unquote didn't remember. And when you talk about feeling

439
00:24:38,079 --> 00:24:43,599
Speaker 1: nothing toward your father now and even feeling nothing when

440
00:24:43,599 --> 00:24:46,479
Speaker 1: you got this letter, I think that might be a

441
00:24:46,519 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 1: way of coping with the fact that there's probably so

442
00:24:50,519 --> 00:24:55,679
Speaker 1: much anger and so much sadness, and I wonder where

443
00:24:55,759 --> 00:24:58,679
Speaker 1: all of that goes. What would happen if you actually

444
00:24:58,759 --> 00:25:01,479
Speaker 1: acknowledge to yourself that you do feel something.

445
00:25:02,959 --> 00:25:04,999
Speaker 5: I mean, like I said, I am angry about it.

446
00:25:06,239 --> 00:25:06,839
Speaker 5: I'm angry.

447
00:25:07,519 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 4: I guess myometer for anger after seeing the way my

448
00:25:11,959 --> 00:25:15,279
Speaker 4: dad conducts himself, I think my barometer for anger is

449
00:25:15,479 --> 00:25:16,519
Speaker 4: skewed a little bit.

450
00:25:16,479 --> 00:25:20,879
Speaker 5: So maybe I associate rage with anger. I am angry.

451
00:25:21,319 --> 00:25:25,679
Speaker 5: There's no acknowledgement, you know, angry and definitely sat.

452
00:25:27,399 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 1: I hear the sadness because your voice is catching, and

453
00:25:29,959 --> 00:25:32,719
Speaker 1: I see your eyes tearing up a little bit. Tell

454
00:25:32,799 --> 00:25:36,559
Speaker 1: us first about the anger. Can you say more about it?

455
00:25:36,599 --> 00:25:38,999
Speaker 1: Because I think you're right that for you, anger looks

456
00:25:38,999 --> 00:25:42,479
Speaker 1: like violence. Yeah, And what we're saying is anger is

457
00:25:42,479 --> 00:25:45,479
Speaker 1: just a normal human emotion. And what it does is

458
00:25:45,519 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 1: it sets an alarm and it says, wait a minute,

459
00:25:48,199 --> 00:25:50,559
Speaker 1: something is not right here. I'm not being treated well.

460
00:25:51,519 --> 00:25:55,479
Speaker 1: So it serves a useful purpose if you do something

461
00:25:56,399 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 1: productive with the anger, right, So can you give voice

462
00:26:00,679 --> 00:26:02,879
Speaker 1: to your anger toward your father?

463
00:26:04,519 --> 00:26:06,839
Speaker 5: I don't even have to express it because I feel like.

464
00:26:08,559 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 4: For me to to express that I'm angry, it definitely

465
00:26:13,439 --> 00:26:13,839
Speaker 4: makes me.

466
00:26:15,879 --> 00:26:18,719
Speaker 5: It definitely makes me really tense and.

467
00:26:18,719 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 4: Almost like move toward that like violent rage or I

468
00:26:23,279 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 4: just want to like scream or something, you know what

469
00:26:25,679 --> 00:26:25,999
Speaker 4: I mean.

470
00:26:26,599 --> 00:26:30,279
Speaker 3: But Jason, the difference between you and your dad is

471
00:26:30,279 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 3: that you can feel that kind of rage and not

472
00:26:34,199 --> 00:26:37,799
Speaker 3: go and scream at someone and he feels it and

473
00:26:37,799 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 3: he just lets it all out. I want you to

474
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 3: get back to what loriosity to do to try and

475
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:43,559
Speaker 3: get in touch with that anger. But I want you

476
00:26:43,599 --> 00:26:45,599
Speaker 3: to when you're doing it, consider the fact that you're

477
00:26:45,639 --> 00:26:46,079
Speaker 3: a dad.

478
00:26:46,199 --> 00:26:46,479
Speaker 1: Now.

479
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,519
Speaker 3: You had that moment where your son is three, and

480
00:26:49,559 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 3: you saw the look on his face when he was

481
00:26:51,399 --> 00:26:55,039
Speaker 3: exposed for a moment to that which you were exposed

482
00:26:55,079 --> 00:27:00,479
Speaker 3: to your entire childhood. So can you extrapulate from that

483
00:27:01,399 --> 00:27:03,359
Speaker 3: and knowing what it did to your son in a moment,

484
00:27:04,279 --> 00:27:06,719
Speaker 3: what it must have been like for you, and try

485
00:27:06,759 --> 00:27:08,799
Speaker 3: and talk about the anger from that perspective.

486
00:27:10,079 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 5: Yeah.

487
00:27:12,279 --> 00:27:16,799
Speaker 4: The only way I can explain it is that I'm

488
00:27:16,919 --> 00:27:21,519
Speaker 4: very aware on a moment to moment basis every day

489
00:27:22,439 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 4: of those feelings.

490
00:27:24,999 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 5: I can still I can still hear him saying those

491
00:27:28,399 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 5: things to me.

492
00:27:30,559 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 4: And the only way I can describe it is, like

493
00:27:33,959 --> 00:27:38,959
Speaker 4: I tell my Wifela, I go to war every day

494
00:27:39,199 --> 00:27:43,039
Speaker 4: trying to not be just completely consumed by it, and

495
00:27:43,159 --> 00:27:49,839
Speaker 4: especially having children on my own, it's it's frightening to

496
00:27:49,879 --> 00:27:54,799
Speaker 4: me to think that if I don't stay in control,

497
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,279
Speaker 4: that I could do something like that to them, because

498
00:27:59,319 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 4: I just I just look at him, and I just

499
00:28:00,639 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 4: see how innocent they are, and I was the same

500
00:28:05,279 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 4: innocent little kid. I didn't deserve any of that. So

501
00:28:11,599 --> 00:28:15,759
Speaker 4: I'm just definitely aware of it. Takes one hundred percent

502
00:28:15,879 --> 00:28:17,239
Speaker 4: focus for me to.

503
00:28:18,719 --> 00:28:20,839
Speaker 5: Not be consumed by those feelings.

504
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,079
Speaker 1: Another difference between you and your dad is that he

505
00:28:26,159 --> 00:28:28,199
Speaker 1: was also an innocent little kid at one point, and

506
00:28:28,239 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 1: he was subjected to a father like the father he became.

507
00:28:33,519 --> 00:28:36,439
Speaker 1: But what he did with all of his anger is

508
00:28:36,639 --> 00:28:39,479
Speaker 1: he turned it outward. And the reason that we want

509
00:28:39,479 --> 00:28:42,159
Speaker 1: you to talk about your anger is because if we

510
00:28:42,239 --> 00:28:46,919
Speaker 1: push down a feeling, we are consumed by it. It

511
00:28:46,959 --> 00:28:50,439
Speaker 1: becomes even bigger. It has no air. And so when

512
00:28:50,479 --> 00:28:52,519
Speaker 1: your father would feel anger, he didn't know what to

513
00:28:52,559 --> 00:28:55,919
Speaker 1: do with it, and so he just lashed out. And

514
00:28:55,959 --> 00:28:58,399
Speaker 1: when you feel anger, you're so afraid of it, because

515
00:28:58,399 --> 00:29:01,319
Speaker 1: you're so afraid of becoming him, that I think you

516
00:29:01,399 --> 00:29:04,599
Speaker 1: turn it inward. I'm not a good son because I

517
00:29:04,639 --> 00:29:08,199
Speaker 1: didn't call him in the hospital. Or I start to

518
00:29:08,239 --> 00:29:11,679
Speaker 1: feel anger because you know, just the way that parents

519
00:29:11,799 --> 00:29:15,439
Speaker 1: do in a normal situation, like my kid is whining

520
00:29:15,479 --> 00:29:18,519
Speaker 1: about something and I'm getting really frustrated with my child

521
00:29:18,639 --> 00:29:20,479
Speaker 1: right now, or they won't take their knap, or they

522
00:29:20,879 --> 00:29:23,599
Speaker 1: you know whatever. It is just the normal day to

523
00:29:23,679 --> 00:29:27,519
Speaker 1: day of being a parent. But for you, you start

524
00:29:27,559 --> 00:29:30,039
Speaker 1: to think, oh, oh, I'm starting to feel angry about something.

525
00:29:30,079 --> 00:29:33,519
Speaker 1: What am I capable of doing? So I need to

526
00:29:33,559 --> 00:29:36,759
Speaker 1: make sure I don't feel any anger because I'm afraid

527
00:29:36,799 --> 00:29:42,519
Speaker 1: of anger. I'm terrified of anger. The problem with doing

528
00:29:42,559 --> 00:29:47,559
Speaker 1: that is that you numb out what you're feeling. You

529
00:29:47,639 --> 00:29:51,559
Speaker 1: don't have any access to what you're feeling.

530
00:29:53,239 --> 00:29:55,999
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I would say that's pretty accurate.

531
00:29:57,119 --> 00:30:03,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, So imagining yourself is that young child, that moment

532
00:30:03,599 --> 00:30:06,999
Speaker 1: when he spat in your face to take a concrete example,

533
00:30:08,479 --> 00:30:10,639
Speaker 1: tell us about how you might have felt, right, then

534
00:30:11,919 --> 00:30:12,919
Speaker 1: tell us about the anger.

535
00:30:12,959 --> 00:30:19,319
Speaker 4: Then that particular instance has so much weight for me.

536
00:30:20,039 --> 00:30:24,639
Speaker 4: It haunts me because I just I can still picture

537
00:30:24,679 --> 00:30:27,759
Speaker 4: myself sitting at my desk in my bedroom and just

538
00:30:29,079 --> 00:30:30,799
Speaker 4: I feeling like humiliated.

539
00:30:31,519 --> 00:30:34,039
Speaker 1: You were humiliated, he humiliated you.

540
00:30:35,759 --> 00:30:37,679
Speaker 4: I just can't think of a more vile thing to

541
00:30:37,719 --> 00:30:41,119
Speaker 4: do to disrespect somebody and the spit in their face.

542
00:30:42,279 --> 00:30:45,839
Speaker 1: But you're laughing, And I think that that's how you

543
00:30:46,119 --> 00:30:49,879
Speaker 1: manage your anger. And what we're trying to do here

544
00:30:49,959 --> 00:30:55,279
Speaker 1: is to let you feel your anger and see that

545
00:30:55,359 --> 00:30:57,639
Speaker 1: it's not as scary as you think it is. Yeah,

546
00:30:57,799 --> 00:31:00,479
Speaker 1: that actually you will get some relief from this, right.

547
00:31:01,839 --> 00:31:05,479
Speaker 3: Can I ask you, Jason, if you able to travel

548
00:31:05,519 --> 00:31:08,719
Speaker 3: back in time and inhabit you're nine year olds self,

549
00:31:08,759 --> 00:31:12,719
Speaker 3: however old you were at that time, and respond to

550
00:31:12,759 --> 00:31:16,039
Speaker 3: your dad from that place forgetting for the moment that

551
00:31:16,079 --> 00:31:18,039
Speaker 3: you were small and you could have just hit you.

552
00:31:18,119 --> 00:31:21,999
Speaker 3: But what would you have said to him if you

553
00:31:22,079 --> 00:31:24,319
Speaker 3: could in that moment?

554
00:31:27,119 --> 00:31:29,639
Speaker 5: How would you say? I'm just a kid?

555
00:31:30,439 --> 00:31:32,759
Speaker 4: You know, I'm just a kid, and I made a

556
00:31:32,799 --> 00:31:37,279
Speaker 4: mistake and I don't deserve to be treated like that.

557
00:31:38,839 --> 00:31:40,559
Speaker 3: Okay, First of all, you didn't even make a mistake,

558
00:31:40,599 --> 00:31:42,239
Speaker 3: which is part of why this one sticks out for

559
00:31:42,279 --> 00:31:44,119
Speaker 3: you that much. You actually didn't make a mistake. You

560
00:31:44,159 --> 00:31:45,799
Speaker 3: didn't want to go into the street because you're not

561
00:31:45,799 --> 00:31:47,359
Speaker 3: supposed to go into the street, so you open the

562
00:31:47,359 --> 00:31:49,199
Speaker 3: door from the sidewalk side, as you're supposed to be

563
00:31:49,199 --> 00:31:51,479
Speaker 3: as a child. But if you want to tell him,

564
00:31:51,479 --> 00:31:53,919
Speaker 3: if you wanted to tell him off, because you're inhabiting

565
00:31:53,959 --> 00:31:56,399
Speaker 3: that body as an adult, so you can really tell

566
00:31:56,479 --> 00:31:58,839
Speaker 3: him off in terms of what he's doing to you,

567
00:31:59,719 --> 00:32:00,999
Speaker 3: what would you say to him? Then?

568
00:32:02,559 --> 00:32:07,279
Speaker 4: How could you treat your child in that way? How

569
00:32:07,279 --> 00:32:10,399
Speaker 4: can you treat a kid worse than you would treat

570
00:32:10,399 --> 00:32:10,879
Speaker 4: a stranger?

571
00:32:10,919 --> 00:32:16,719
Speaker 1: Industry, what I'm hearing from you is a very calm,

572
00:32:16,879 --> 00:32:24,519
Speaker 1: rational adult responding to that kind of violent, abusive outburst.

573
00:32:25,839 --> 00:32:27,959
Speaker 1: And I think what guy is saying is, what do

574
00:32:27,959 --> 00:32:29,879
Speaker 1: you think a kid's anger would look like if they

575
00:32:29,959 --> 00:32:33,439
Speaker 1: felt free to express it in that moment? And I

576
00:32:33,479 --> 00:32:36,799
Speaker 1: have a feeling it would go something like this, I

577
00:32:36,879 --> 00:32:41,279
Speaker 1: hate you, I can't stand you.

578
00:32:42,719 --> 00:32:45,999
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, I guess I just didn't want to say

579
00:32:45,999 --> 00:32:48,519
Speaker 5: that out I guess why not?

580
00:32:50,039 --> 00:32:53,359
Speaker 4: I guess because I can't imagine saying that to somebody

581
00:32:53,439 --> 00:32:56,119
Speaker 4: I loved, you, know, and that's.

582
00:32:55,959 --> 00:32:58,999
Speaker 3: Part of what inhibited you so much. That do you

583
00:32:59,359 --> 00:33:01,199
Speaker 3: When you were a kid, you love the parents you have,

584
00:33:01,359 --> 00:33:04,559
Speaker 3: no matter who they are. You hate them in certain moments,

585
00:33:04,559 --> 00:33:07,119
Speaker 3: but they are parents, and they're the ones that feed

586
00:33:07,159 --> 00:33:09,639
Speaker 3: you and clothe you and protect you. Suppose it, so

587
00:33:10,199 --> 00:33:12,319
Speaker 3: you do love them. There's a trump there. It's very

588
00:33:12,359 --> 00:33:17,159
Speaker 3: difficult to hate them. But there's a part of you

589
00:33:17,279 --> 00:33:20,839
Speaker 3: that felt exactly like Laurie said, I hate you. There's

590
00:33:20,839 --> 00:33:23,119
Speaker 3: a part of you that felt you are a terrible,

591
00:33:23,599 --> 00:33:28,279
Speaker 3: terrible father. It sucks that I ended up with you,

592
00:33:28,599 --> 00:33:31,359
Speaker 3: of all fathers. There's a part of you that wanted

593
00:33:31,399 --> 00:33:35,919
Speaker 3: to say those things, that thought those things, that never

594
00:33:36,159 --> 00:33:39,159
Speaker 3: gave them voice, never allowed himself to even in his

595
00:33:39,199 --> 00:33:39,599
Speaker 3: own head.

596
00:33:39,639 --> 00:33:44,399
Speaker 4: Probably I definitely have thought that as a kid, for sure.

597
00:33:45,679 --> 00:33:50,839
Speaker 4: I think as an adult I hadn't necessarily felt that outward,

598
00:33:50,959 --> 00:33:52,599
Speaker 4: like I hate you sort of thing.

599
00:33:53,519 --> 00:33:53,999
Speaker 5: I think that.

600
00:33:55,759 --> 00:34:00,479
Speaker 4: Hate component has just kind of aged into apathy now

601
00:34:00,599 --> 00:34:05,399
Speaker 4: where I'm just I don't necessarily hate him, but I'm indifferent.

602
00:34:07,519 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 1: Did you feel indifferent when you saw your son's eyes

603
00:34:11,279 --> 00:34:16,559
Speaker 1: bug out and he had to see your father's rage

604
00:34:16,959 --> 00:34:18,199
Speaker 1: or did you feel something else?

605
00:34:20,319 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 5: No, I was very angry and protective.

606
00:34:25,919 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 1: If you could give voice to that anger, what would

607
00:34:27,759 --> 00:34:28,359
Speaker 1: it sound like?

608
00:34:29,999 --> 00:34:32,439
Speaker 5: This is a good exercise giving voice to anger.

609
00:34:32,479 --> 00:34:35,839
Speaker 3: It's very difficult, Yes, when you've loved it for so long,

610
00:34:35,879 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 3: it's very difficult.

611
00:34:37,279 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess in that moment, I just I was

612
00:34:42,799 --> 00:34:45,999
Speaker 4: angry and afraid for my son.

613
00:34:47,079 --> 00:34:50,199
Speaker 1: If you could directly talk to your father, meaning in

614
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,159
Speaker 1: that moment, if you could express your anger in that moment,

615
00:34:53,159 --> 00:34:55,639
Speaker 1: what would it have sounded like? Unedited?

616
00:34:56,239 --> 00:35:00,079
Speaker 4: I probably would have said you, sob how dare you?

617
00:35:00,399 --> 00:35:04,039
Speaker 4: I told you that I would never tolerate this and

618
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,879
Speaker 4: you will never see him again.

619
00:35:09,319 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 1: What is it like right now talking to us about

620
00:35:11,799 --> 00:35:12,359
Speaker 1: your anger?

621
00:35:14,759 --> 00:35:20,599
Speaker 4: It's difficult because I've always associated it with such a

622
00:35:20,639 --> 00:35:26,599
Speaker 4: negative thing, and so to constructively address it, talk about

623
00:35:26,599 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 4: it in a productive way, it's very difficult.

624
00:35:31,519 --> 00:35:34,439
Speaker 5: It's foreign. Like I'm I don't know what to do

625
00:35:34,759 --> 00:35:35,119
Speaker 5: with it.

626
00:35:35,199 --> 00:35:39,199
Speaker 1: You know, what do you do with your son's anger

627
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 1: when he gets angry?

628
00:35:41,559 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 4: I just try to try to talk him down, you know,

629
00:35:43,919 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 4: get down their level and just try to de escalate,

630
00:35:48,679 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 4: you know, let him know that I love them.

631
00:35:51,399 --> 00:35:53,399
Speaker 1: What would it be like if when your son is

632
00:35:53,439 --> 00:35:56,919
Speaker 1: angry about something, to be able to say to him.

633
00:35:57,439 --> 00:36:00,479
Speaker 1: I know, I can see how angry you are. I

634
00:36:00,559 --> 00:36:04,439
Speaker 1: get it. I know how angry you are. I know

635
00:36:04,559 --> 00:36:08,919
Speaker 1: you really really want that third cookie. Have you ever

636
00:36:08,959 --> 00:36:13,439
Speaker 1: been a to just really validate his anger or you

637
00:36:13,519 --> 00:36:17,399
Speaker 1: more about Oh, don't be so angry, or it's okay,

638
00:36:17,439 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 1: I love you. What happens between the two of you

639
00:36:19,799 --> 00:36:20,439
Speaker 1: around anger?

640
00:36:21,119 --> 00:36:22,119
Speaker 5: I have those moments.

641
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,679
Speaker 4: We have three more children too, so we have four total,

642
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:29,599
Speaker 4: and it's very busy, so.

643
00:36:29,519 --> 00:36:32,399
Speaker 1: I'm sure some anger comes up amongst the four.

644
00:36:32,799 --> 00:36:33,479
Speaker 5: Yeah.

645
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, When we have those moments, it just it makes

646
00:36:37,839 --> 00:36:41,799
Speaker 4: me feel it makes me feel so so good, so

647
00:36:41,999 --> 00:36:45,119
Speaker 4: full that I feel like I'm helping them.

648
00:36:45,159 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 5: I'm helping them to understand their feelings.

649
00:36:47,759 --> 00:36:50,919
Speaker 4: I'm validating them and letting them know that it's okay

650
00:36:50,919 --> 00:36:53,159
Speaker 4: to feel that way, but we're going to try to

651
00:36:53,199 --> 00:36:58,039
Speaker 4: work through that constructively. And those moments, I mean, can't

652
00:36:58,039 --> 00:36:59,999
Speaker 4: do it all the time, That's why parenting is so hard,

653
00:37:00,039 --> 00:37:03,599
Speaker 4: but those moments, it just it makes me so happy

654
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:05,839
Speaker 4: where I'm like, I'm proud of myself.

655
00:37:06,639 --> 00:37:08,639
Speaker 5: That's the kind of treatment that I would have wanted.

656
00:37:08,999 --> 00:37:12,559
Speaker 3: This is your way of correcting what you and your

657
00:37:12,599 --> 00:37:15,199
Speaker 3: brother got. So it's your way of healing the universe

658
00:37:15,279 --> 00:37:19,679
Speaker 3: by doing the correction that you never were given. Because

659
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,639
Speaker 3: I think, I think, Jason, that you really grew up

660
00:37:23,679 --> 00:37:29,159
Speaker 3: confusing still do anger with uncontrolled anger. All anger you

661
00:37:29,199 --> 00:37:33,359
Speaker 3: saw was uncontrolled. It was rage, It was belligerent, it

662
00:37:33,399 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 3: was belittling, it was mad in all the way anger

663
00:37:36,799 --> 00:37:42,639
Speaker 3: can be. But there's anger that is instructive and constructive

664
00:37:42,839 --> 00:37:46,119
Speaker 3: and a part of daily life when it's controlled, when

665
00:37:46,159 --> 00:37:50,639
Speaker 3: it's management, it's understood, and that is anger that is

666
00:37:50,879 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 3: legit and important, and you need to make a distinction

667
00:37:55,759 --> 00:37:58,119
Speaker 3: between them so that you're not afraid of that kind

668
00:37:58,119 --> 00:38:00,199
Speaker 3: of anger. I did want to ask about your mum

669
00:38:00,319 --> 00:38:02,639
Speaker 3: because she's a little absent for me and all of this.

670
00:38:03,919 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 4: He's always been very verbally abusive to her and demean

671
00:38:09,519 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 4: and belittling and controlling, And my mom told us when

672
00:38:14,319 --> 00:38:19,079
Speaker 4: we were younger, you know, I stayed with your dad

673
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:23,079
Speaker 4: for you guys, and we used to joke and say, well, thanks,

674
00:38:23,079 --> 00:38:26,399
Speaker 4: you didn't really do us any favors. But she's still

675
00:38:26,439 --> 00:38:28,399
Speaker 4: even now we're grown r out of the house, like

676
00:38:29,159 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 4: he's still the same, and she's just okay with it,

677
00:38:36,079 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 4: and she just kind of shrugs it off, like, Yep,

678
00:38:38,879 --> 00:38:39,519
Speaker 4: that's your dad.

679
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:42,559
Speaker 1: Is that what she did when you were young and

680
00:38:42,599 --> 00:38:47,639
Speaker 1: he would yell at you or physically hit you? What

681
00:38:47,679 --> 00:38:50,199
Speaker 1: would she do just that's your dad? Or would she

682
00:38:50,439 --> 00:38:51,559
Speaker 1: comfort you in any way?

683
00:38:53,079 --> 00:38:56,079
Speaker 4: I don't really have any kind of memory of her

684
00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:00,999
Speaker 4: sticking up for us or intervening or comforting us in

685
00:39:01,639 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 4: those moments. I honestly, I don't know that I have

686
00:39:04,879 --> 00:39:05,919
Speaker 4: any memory of that.

687
00:39:08,079 --> 00:39:12,159
Speaker 1: And did you feel anger towards your mom for not

688
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,879
Speaker 1: being able to acknowledge anything that happened in your childhood?

689
00:39:15,759 --> 00:39:16,999
Speaker 5: Yeah?

690
00:39:17,039 --> 00:39:19,919
Speaker 4: But I think I guess for me personally, I feel

691
00:39:19,919 --> 00:39:25,079
Speaker 4: like the bulk of the damage per se was was

692
00:39:25,079 --> 00:39:28,359
Speaker 4: that my father's hand. So I guess I've just I've

693
00:39:29,079 --> 00:39:31,559
Speaker 4: unknowingly kind of focused there.

694
00:39:32,839 --> 00:39:35,559
Speaker 3: You said, Jason, that it's a war you fight every

695
00:39:35,639 --> 00:39:41,439
Speaker 3: day with these memories that you still hear his voice, right,

696
00:39:41,519 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 3: Like these are real like post traumatic you were in

697
00:39:45,319 --> 00:39:48,079
Speaker 3: the military, you know that is you know post traumatic

698
00:39:48,279 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 3: kinds of symptoms. What's the war that goes on in

699
00:39:50,879 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 3: your head?

700
00:39:53,159 --> 00:40:00,599
Speaker 4: I am constantly trying to counter that dialogue with No,

701
00:40:00,959 --> 00:40:04,359
Speaker 4: you're not worthless. You're not stupid, You're not ignorant, Like

702
00:40:05,999 --> 00:40:09,639
Speaker 4: you don't need people to say that you have aue.

703
00:40:09,639 --> 00:40:14,359
Speaker 3: You You'll still now trying to convince yourself that you

704
00:40:14,519 --> 00:40:17,439
Speaker 3: have worth. Is that a war that you're still having

705
00:40:17,479 --> 00:40:19,879
Speaker 3: in terms of your own self esteem your own self worth?

706
00:40:19,919 --> 00:40:22,879
Speaker 3: You've obviously you're married, you have full kids, you sound

707
00:40:22,919 --> 00:40:24,959
Speaker 3: like you're doing a great job with them. You said

708
00:40:24,959 --> 00:40:28,999
Speaker 3: you had achievements and accolades, but you're still fighting that

709
00:40:29,079 --> 00:40:31,679
Speaker 3: war of the fact that it means something.

710
00:40:33,039 --> 00:40:34,399
Speaker 5: Yeah, I definitely.

711
00:40:34,479 --> 00:40:37,199
Speaker 4: I got to a place where I was trying to

712
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,839
Speaker 4: do so much that I was starting to get burnt out.

713
00:40:41,479 --> 00:40:43,519
Speaker 4: And that's where I started to I feel like, be

714
00:40:43,559 --> 00:40:46,839
Speaker 4: a little more constructive with my narrative with myself. And

715
00:40:47,959 --> 00:40:49,999
Speaker 4: my wife is great. I talked to her about all

716
00:40:50,039 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 4: this stuff, and we have a great relationship. And it's

717
00:40:54,159 --> 00:40:57,359
Speaker 4: one hundred and eighty degrees from the kind of relationship

718
00:40:57,359 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 4: that I was shown growing up. And even though I

719
00:41:01,399 --> 00:41:03,879
Speaker 4: know I'm blessed, I have so much and everything is

720
00:41:03,919 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 4: going well, I feel I'm very aware of like I

721
00:41:09,839 --> 00:41:15,399
Speaker 4: have to really really work at every day being comfortable

722
00:41:15,519 --> 00:41:21,039
Speaker 4: with where I'm at and acknowledging my wife and my children,

723
00:41:21,119 --> 00:41:22,879
Speaker 4: and how I'm blessed and I have value as a

724
00:41:22,959 --> 00:41:26,039
Speaker 4: father and as a husband, and that those are the

725
00:41:26,079 --> 00:41:29,399
Speaker 4: things that really matter, and all the other stuff doesn't.

726
00:41:30,399 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 3: Laurie said earlier that sometimes when you try and put

727
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:37,679
Speaker 3: the anger aside, it's by numbing. But often when you numb,

728
00:41:38,439 --> 00:41:41,599
Speaker 3: it numbs. Generally, we're not very good with that kind

729
00:41:41,599 --> 00:41:44,199
Speaker 3: of anesthetic. It's just a general anesthetic. It numbs the

730
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:48,159
Speaker 3: good stuff often. Two. Are you able to take in

731
00:41:48,799 --> 00:41:53,639
Speaker 3: easily enough the reality of your new family, the warmth

732
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 3: of it, the joy of it, the relationship with your

733
00:41:57,319 --> 00:41:59,879
Speaker 3: wife that you've said is so different, the relationship with

734
00:41:59,919 --> 00:42:01,959
Speaker 3: your kids that is so very different than the one

735
00:42:01,999 --> 00:42:03,039
Speaker 3: your parents had with you.

736
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,599
Speaker 5: I would say no, in a way, it's hard for

737
00:42:07,639 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 5: me to, I guess, relax.

738
00:42:10,399 --> 00:42:13,519
Speaker 4: Into that and just be okay with it. I still

739
00:42:13,599 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 4: have a hard time just sitting still. I still have

740
00:42:16,839 --> 00:42:19,679
Speaker 4: a hard time, for any length of time just sitting

741
00:42:19,679 --> 00:42:22,159
Speaker 4: on the floor playing with my kids, like I have

742
00:42:22,199 --> 00:42:25,399
Speaker 4: to stay busy. And I'm aware of it, and I'm

743
00:42:25,439 --> 00:42:32,079
Speaker 4: aware of the thought in my mind of my family

744
00:42:32,119 --> 00:42:34,919
Speaker 4: is so great. Why can't I just relax and just

745
00:42:34,919 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 4: settle into this and just be perfectly okay.

746
00:42:39,639 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 1: The thing about growing up with trauma is that when

747
00:42:44,279 --> 00:42:47,399
Speaker 1: you're finally out of jail, so it feels like you're

748
00:42:47,399 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 1: in jail growing up, and then you're finally released and

749
00:42:50,759 --> 00:42:53,559
Speaker 1: now you have this family where you feel like there's love,

750
00:42:53,599 --> 00:42:57,839
Speaker 1: there's warmth, there's space for emotions, there's a respectful way

751
00:42:57,879 --> 00:43:01,199
Speaker 1: of interacting with one another. There's also a sense of

752
00:43:01,279 --> 00:43:06,199
Speaker 1: unreality to it, like is this real? Is this going

753
00:43:06,279 --> 00:43:10,719
Speaker 1: to last? Will this go away at any moment? And

754
00:43:10,919 --> 00:43:14,399
Speaker 1: that sometimes can prevent us from just being present in

755
00:43:14,439 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 1: it and enjoying it, because in the back of our minds,

756
00:43:18,319 --> 00:43:22,999
Speaker 1: it's like, is this really happening? That sense of I

757
00:43:22,999 --> 00:43:25,039
Speaker 1: don't know if this is going to be here tomorrow,

758
00:43:25,119 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 1: even though you have no reason to believe it it won't.

759
00:43:28,439 --> 00:43:29,799
Speaker 1: Are you experiencing any of that?

760
00:43:31,559 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it's it gets better with time.

761
00:43:36,319 --> 00:43:40,599
Speaker 4: But I know there's been plenty of times where I've

762
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,999
Speaker 4: had conversations with my wife where I've always been kind

763
00:43:43,999 --> 00:43:48,119
Speaker 4: of hesitant to take time for myself, and I say

764
00:43:48,119 --> 00:43:48,559
Speaker 4: to her, like.

765
00:43:48,679 --> 00:43:49,679
Speaker 5: I would just feel guilty.

766
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:51,519
Speaker 4: I would feel guilty if I'm doing this and you

767
00:43:51,599 --> 00:43:54,199
Speaker 4: need me to do that or something like that, and

768
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:58,439
Speaker 4: she's so accepting and just you need to have your time,

769
00:43:58,519 --> 00:43:59,199
Speaker 4: you need to do this.

770
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 5: It's okay. I want you to do this. It's okay.

771
00:44:02,479 --> 00:44:07,639
Speaker 4: And I've been very hesitant to make space for what

772
00:44:07,799 --> 00:44:13,199
Speaker 4: my needs may be because I'm afraid, Well, I don't

773
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:15,199
Speaker 4: want to. I don't want to take too much time.

774
00:44:15,279 --> 00:44:17,079
Speaker 4: I don't I don't want her to be upset. I

775
00:44:17,119 --> 00:44:19,039
Speaker 4: don't I don't want this to end. This is so great.

776
00:44:19,199 --> 00:44:23,559
Speaker 1: I think what you're talking about is that it's very

777
00:44:23,639 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 1: uncomfortable when somebody sees you when for so long you

778
00:44:28,319 --> 00:44:33,199
Speaker 1: haven't been seen, and you don't trust it. It feels

779
00:44:33,199 --> 00:44:37,439
Speaker 1: so foreign to you. My needs matter? And am I

780
00:44:37,559 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 1: going to be perceived as selfish if I take her

781
00:44:40,839 --> 00:44:43,679
Speaker 1: up on this? What's the catch? How is this going

782
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,399
Speaker 1: to get turned around on me? Because there might have

783
00:44:46,439 --> 00:44:49,119
Speaker 1: been times in your childhood where the moment you let

784
00:44:49,159 --> 00:44:52,959
Speaker 1: down your guard, the other shoe dropped, and so you

785
00:44:52,999 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 1: can't really trust this that, oh, she wants me to

786
00:44:55,799 --> 00:44:58,199
Speaker 1: take time for myself. But then is she later going

787
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:00,079
Speaker 1: to come back and say she resents me for it?

788
00:45:01,639 --> 00:45:06,119
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's pretty much it directly.

789
00:45:06,599 --> 00:45:11,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you did take time what would you do

790
00:45:11,519 --> 00:45:11,879
Speaker 3: with it?

791
00:45:13,559 --> 00:45:16,119
Speaker 4: I used to have a lot of hobbies, but since

792
00:45:16,119 --> 00:45:18,359
Speaker 4: we've had kids, I don't really have much time for anything.

793
00:45:18,479 --> 00:45:20,559
Speaker 1: So what were your hobbies?

794
00:45:21,399 --> 00:45:24,639
Speaker 5: I used to mountain bike quite a bit, play guitar.

795
00:45:25,879 --> 00:45:28,119
Speaker 1: So when your wife says, go take some time, what

796
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 1: prevents you from getting on that bike?

797
00:45:31,199 --> 00:45:33,959
Speaker 4: It's like, all right, well, I already spent so much

798
00:45:33,999 --> 00:45:37,919
Speaker 4: time out of the house working, and you were home

799
00:45:38,079 --> 00:45:40,919
Speaker 4: with the kids the whole time. I feel bad if

800
00:45:40,959 --> 00:45:42,999
Speaker 4: I'm going to go take a couple hours to go

801
00:45:43,079 --> 00:45:46,479
Speaker 4: by myself and do something when I've already had time

802
00:45:46,519 --> 00:45:47,839
Speaker 4: away from the family.

803
00:45:48,359 --> 00:45:52,639
Speaker 1: Can I offer your wife's perspective? Sure, I'm guessing that

804
00:45:52,759 --> 00:45:57,879
Speaker 1: her perspective might be you've been working so hard to

805
00:45:57,959 --> 00:46:03,879
Speaker 1: support us, and everybody needs a break, and you would

806
00:46:03,879 --> 00:46:08,199
Speaker 1: probably even be more relaxed and joyful and playful and

807
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:12,119
Speaker 1: present if you could unwind a little bit. And so

808
00:46:12,279 --> 00:46:14,359
Speaker 1: not only does it help you, but it would help

809
00:46:14,439 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 1: me and it would help the kids if you would

810
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 1: go spend a couple hours on that bike.

811
00:46:20,599 --> 00:46:23,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm laughing because I've I've heard pretty much that

812
00:46:23,519 --> 00:46:24,119
Speaker 4: exact thing.

813
00:46:25,279 --> 00:46:27,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, and yet you resist it still.

814
00:46:29,359 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, it's that message. You said, there's a war

815
00:46:33,399 --> 00:46:35,679
Speaker 1: going on every day. It's the I don't deserve.

816
00:46:37,599 --> 00:46:42,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, maybe the realization that hasn't filtered in

817
00:46:42,599 --> 00:46:44,519
Speaker 3: yet that the war is over.

818
00:46:46,119 --> 00:46:47,879
Speaker 4: That's a good point. I never thought about like that,

819
00:46:49,159 --> 00:46:52,959
Speaker 4: and if you did. If I did, I would change

820
00:46:52,959 --> 00:46:58,999
Speaker 4: everything tills. It would create a lot of space for

821
00:47:00,039 --> 00:47:01,439
Speaker 4: a tremendous amount of joy.

822
00:47:02,199 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 3: Oftentimes people feel in your situation where the wall will

823
00:47:05,759 --> 00:47:09,119
Speaker 3: be over to say this area indelicately, the wall will

824
00:47:09,119 --> 00:47:10,039
Speaker 3: be when they're dead.

825
00:47:11,639 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 5: Yeah, I thought about that.

826
00:47:12,839 --> 00:47:18,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you've already disconnected from them to a substantial degree.

827
00:47:19,919 --> 00:47:23,159
Speaker 3: Keep the visits minimum. They come four or five times

828
00:47:23,159 --> 00:47:27,199
Speaker 3: a year to your place, so it's supervised. You have

829
00:47:27,279 --> 00:47:29,559
Speaker 3: the option to ask them to leave. If they misbehave

830
00:47:30,039 --> 00:47:32,079
Speaker 3: the first hint of a war erupting, you would probably

831
00:47:32,119 --> 00:47:34,359
Speaker 3: toss them out so you wouldn't have to be exposed

832
00:47:34,399 --> 00:47:38,599
Speaker 3: to it. So you've already taken the steps to end

833
00:47:38,639 --> 00:47:42,999
Speaker 3: that war or your exposure to it, and to create

834
00:47:43,119 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 3: such a different reality with your family, and you're not

835
00:47:47,359 --> 00:47:49,599
Speaker 3: getting the joy because when you said it, you said

836
00:47:49,639 --> 00:47:52,159
Speaker 3: that would create so much space for joy, which means

837
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:56,159
Speaker 3: there's so much space for joy that you're not experiencing

838
00:47:57,319 --> 00:47:57,919
Speaker 3: that you could.

839
00:47:58,919 --> 00:48:02,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think what's taking up some of the

840
00:48:02,439 --> 00:48:08,199
Speaker 1: space is this internal conflict you're having Jason, about what

841
00:48:08,319 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 1: do I owe my parents at this time in my life?

842
00:48:13,679 --> 00:48:18,879
Speaker 1: What is my responsibility to my parents, even if they

843
00:48:19,639 --> 00:48:21,519
Speaker 1: were not able to be the kinds of parents that

844
00:48:21,559 --> 00:48:27,079
Speaker 1: I needed? Yeah, and how do I balance that with

845
00:48:28,359 --> 00:48:31,159
Speaker 1: not going back into the war zone.

846
00:48:32,159 --> 00:48:34,639
Speaker 4: That's a good way to describe it. I definitely feel like,

847
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:39,199
Speaker 4: what are my obligations? I guess what are my responsibilities?

848
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 5: What do I owe them?

849
00:48:41,439 --> 00:48:43,359
Speaker 4: But because of where I'm at with the whole thing,

850
00:48:44,439 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 4: my wife says, like, when they come over, it changes me.

851
00:48:48,439 --> 00:48:51,639
Speaker 5: I'm definitely I'm on edge, I'm on guard.

852
00:48:52,599 --> 00:48:54,959
Speaker 1: What does happen when they come over and they're in

853
00:48:54,999 --> 00:48:58,399
Speaker 1: your territory and your wife is there, so you have

854
00:48:58,479 --> 00:49:01,319
Speaker 1: that support and she knows exactly what's going on, so

855
00:49:01,359 --> 00:49:03,079
Speaker 1: she can be there to kind of you know, you

856
00:49:03,079 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 1: can give her a look, she can give you a look.

857
00:49:05,399 --> 00:49:08,639
Speaker 1: And does that happen for the two of you? Yeah,

858
00:49:09,319 --> 00:49:12,119
Speaker 1: you have that kind of You're see You're not like

859
00:49:12,319 --> 00:49:16,399
Speaker 1: the child who feels completely isolated in the experience and

860
00:49:16,439 --> 00:49:19,679
Speaker 1: alone and helpless, but you have your wife who can

861
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:21,959
Speaker 1: give you that look like, oh, my goodness, your parents

862
00:49:21,999 --> 00:49:26,359
Speaker 1: just did that, and they just said that, yeah, So

863
00:49:26,839 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 1: what is that like? When they come over and they're

864
00:49:29,319 --> 00:49:29,999
Speaker 1: on your turf.

865
00:49:31,039 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 4: That's usually the only way like I see them simply

866
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:36,679
Speaker 4: because I can control the circumstance in some way.

867
00:49:36,599 --> 00:49:37,119
Speaker 5: Like we don't.

868
00:49:37,519 --> 00:49:40,799
Speaker 4: We don't have alcohol in the house, and we usually

869
00:49:40,799 --> 00:49:43,119
Speaker 4: try to encourage them to visit earlier in the day

870
00:49:43,639 --> 00:49:46,639
Speaker 4: because my dad can. Usually he's usually fine up to

871
00:49:46,679 --> 00:49:49,599
Speaker 4: a certain point, but he's been here deep into the afternoon,

872
00:49:49,599 --> 00:49:52,559
Speaker 4: and then the switch flips and you can tell that

873
00:49:52,679 --> 00:49:53,639
Speaker 4: he's getting thirsty.

874
00:49:54,679 --> 00:49:56,679
Speaker 5: Even though I've controlled.

875
00:49:56,399 --> 00:50:00,639
Speaker 4: For those variables as much as I can, I'm always

876
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:04,159
Speaker 4: on edge. I'm always on guard. But if I'm honest,

877
00:50:04,199 --> 00:50:09,879
Speaker 4: when they come over, it's they're usually fine. Now, I

878
00:50:09,879 --> 00:50:13,999
Speaker 4: mean they because he's not drinking. He's fine, and my

879
00:50:14,119 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 4: kids love to be around him. They're always pleasant.

880
00:50:16,839 --> 00:50:21,839
Speaker 5: When they're here. But I, for whatever reason, can't.

881
00:50:22,119 --> 00:50:27,679
Speaker 4: I'm not comfortable letting down my guard even though I've

882
00:50:27,679 --> 00:50:30,559
Speaker 4: controlled for those variables that lead to bad things.

883
00:50:32,559 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 1: Is there a part of you that wishes that the

884
00:50:35,279 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 1: grandparents that they are to your kids could have been

885
00:50:38,759 --> 00:50:42,999
Speaker 1: the parents that they were to you. Absolutely, So we've

886
00:50:42,999 --> 00:50:45,599
Speaker 1: been talking about anger, and I think that's where the

887
00:50:45,639 --> 00:50:48,919
Speaker 1: sadness comes in, where you can see the potential of

888
00:50:48,999 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 1: what things might have looked like, but you didn't get it.

889
00:50:52,319 --> 00:50:55,679
Speaker 1: And even as an adult, you haven't gotten that acknowledgment

890
00:50:55,799 --> 00:50:58,079
Speaker 1: or that apology from them.

891
00:50:58,599 --> 00:50:59,959
Speaker 3: Yeah.

892
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:05,079
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've struggled with that as well. Do they owe

893
00:51:05,079 --> 00:51:05,919
Speaker 4: me an apology?

894
00:51:06,079 --> 00:51:06,159
Speaker 6: Like?

895
00:51:06,599 --> 00:51:09,319
Speaker 5: How do I move forward knowing that that may never

896
00:51:10,679 --> 00:51:11,159
Speaker 5: I think.

897
00:51:10,959 --> 00:51:13,159
Speaker 1: You know the answer to the question of whether you

898
00:51:14,279 --> 00:51:18,439
Speaker 1: are owed an apology. The answer is yes, you are

899
00:51:18,519 --> 00:51:23,279
Speaker 1: owed an apology. You can't get reparation for the time

900
00:51:23,319 --> 00:51:25,559
Speaker 1: spent as a child where you were treated that way,

901
00:51:26,039 --> 00:51:31,399
Speaker 1: but at the very least, an acknowledgment, an apology something

902
00:51:31,399 --> 00:51:35,359
Speaker 1: that says I know that I did this to you

903
00:51:36,199 --> 00:51:39,559
Speaker 1: and I am deeply, deeply sorry. But I think if

904
00:51:39,639 --> 00:51:43,039
Speaker 1: you wait for that, that if you still hold out

905
00:51:43,079 --> 00:51:47,479
Speaker 1: the hope for it, the war won't end, you know.

906
00:51:47,519 --> 00:51:49,319
Speaker 1: I think the war ends when we let go of

907
00:51:49,359 --> 00:51:52,919
Speaker 1: the hope of having a different childhood, and you think

908
00:51:52,959 --> 00:51:56,079
Speaker 1: that waiting for the apology is leaving you in that

909
00:51:56,199 --> 00:52:00,519
Speaker 1: limbo of still hoping for having a better childhood, meaning

910
00:52:00,559 --> 00:52:02,799
Speaker 1: you know that you can't go back into childhood, but

911
00:52:02,839 --> 00:52:06,639
Speaker 1: there's something about the apology that helps with that.

912
00:52:07,919 --> 00:52:08,199
Speaker 5: Yeah.

913
00:52:09,399 --> 00:52:11,359
Speaker 1: I think that where you are going to have to

914
00:52:11,399 --> 00:52:16,199
Speaker 1: go with that is into some grief work around the

915
00:52:16,279 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 1: childhood that you actually did have and around who your

916
00:52:19,759 --> 00:52:23,479
Speaker 1: parents are and what their limitations are. And that's very

917
00:52:23,519 --> 00:52:29,599
Speaker 1: different from numbing yourself from those feelings, okay.

918
00:52:30,119 --> 00:52:32,839
Speaker 3: Because because that's why your God is up when they visit.

919
00:52:32,959 --> 00:52:35,519
Speaker 3: It's not so much so you're ready in case dad

920
00:52:36,199 --> 00:52:40,119
Speaker 3: loses his temper. It's so that all the feelings you

921
00:52:40,199 --> 00:52:45,039
Speaker 3: have that come up when you see them actually behave Okay,

922
00:52:45,119 --> 00:52:48,519
Speaker 3: When you see your kids connect to them, then it

923
00:52:48,559 --> 00:52:51,799
Speaker 3: brings up all these feelings about what they did to you,

924
00:52:52,639 --> 00:52:55,039
Speaker 3: what your dad did, what your mom didn't do to

925
00:52:55,079 --> 00:52:59,159
Speaker 3: protect you, what they're giving to your kids now that

926
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:02,079
Speaker 3: they never gave to you. It brings up so many

927
00:53:02,119 --> 00:53:05,879
Speaker 3: feelings that you have. That's why your God is up

928
00:53:05,959 --> 00:53:08,999
Speaker 3: not for the attack, but from the attack from within.

929
00:53:12,879 --> 00:53:15,039
Speaker 1: I also think that when you see your parents act

930
00:53:15,119 --> 00:53:18,519
Speaker 1: in a way that feels good, that there is a

931
00:53:18,599 --> 00:53:21,399
Speaker 1: part of you that is still hoping that they're going

932
00:53:21,479 --> 00:53:23,999
Speaker 1: to see something that they haven't seen before about the

933
00:53:23,999 --> 00:53:29,159
Speaker 1: way that they treated you and the better behaved they are.

934
00:53:29,999 --> 00:53:31,879
Speaker 1: Even though you want that and you want that for

935
00:53:31,919 --> 00:53:38,679
Speaker 1: your kids, that somehow it's gutting because there's a there

936
00:53:38,799 --> 00:53:42,919
Speaker 1: there in some way you can see that, but they

937
00:53:42,959 --> 00:53:46,199
Speaker 1: can't quite get to the place of saying, I'm really sorry,

938
00:53:46,319 --> 00:53:49,359
Speaker 1: I see what I did. And I'm talking about both

939
00:53:49,359 --> 00:53:53,679
Speaker 1: of them, your mother and your father, And so there's

940
00:53:53,679 --> 00:53:57,839
Speaker 1: that paradox of it's great that they can behave themselves

941
00:53:57,959 --> 00:54:00,839
Speaker 1: around my kids. It's great that we can have a

942
00:54:00,839 --> 00:54:05,239
Speaker 1: pleasant enough time, but that brings up that hope of

943
00:54:05,479 --> 00:54:08,359
Speaker 1: and if they can do that, maybe they can apologize,

944
00:54:08,559 --> 00:54:11,799
Speaker 1: and when they don't, you get devastated all over again.

945
00:54:12,319 --> 00:54:18,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, I definitely think that tying into that is every

946
00:54:18,279 --> 00:54:22,759
Speaker 4: time my mom or my dad tries to kind of

947
00:54:22,759 --> 00:54:25,359
Speaker 4: make me feel guilty for like we don't see you enough,

948
00:54:26,679 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 4: that narrative starts. I'm where I'm just like, you don't understand,

949
00:54:30,799 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 4: like if you just apologize, if you just acknowledge this,

950
00:54:33,879 --> 00:54:34,239
Speaker 4: you know.

951
00:54:36,039 --> 00:54:38,359
Speaker 1: Do you ever say that to them? Do you ever

952
00:54:38,439 --> 00:54:41,919
Speaker 1: tell them, you know, I think that you don't understand

953
00:54:41,999 --> 00:54:44,639
Speaker 1: the reason that I don't see you as much as

954
00:54:44,679 --> 00:54:45,279
Speaker 1: you would like.

955
00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:49,159
Speaker 5: No, I haven't, not from that angle.

956
00:54:49,439 --> 00:54:53,279
Speaker 4: I mean, I've told them you're welcome to come over

957
00:54:53,319 --> 00:54:55,639
Speaker 4: to our house whenever you would like, just let us

958
00:54:55,679 --> 00:54:59,119
Speaker 4: know you want to come over. But in that regard,

959
00:54:59,839 --> 00:55:03,319
Speaker 4: even if we invite them, they don't carve out a

960
00:55:03,319 --> 00:55:07,239
Speaker 4: lot of time at all. Their schedule was packed and they.

961
00:55:08,839 --> 00:55:09,639
Speaker 5: Rarely have time.

962
00:55:10,199 --> 00:55:13,719
Speaker 4: So it's that weird thing where they're going to try

963
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:15,279
Speaker 4: to make me feel guilty for not coming.

964
00:55:15,839 --> 00:55:18,919
Speaker 3: Is there a schedule the deed packed or is it

965
00:55:18,999 --> 00:55:21,079
Speaker 3: that an hour and a half drive, an and a

966
00:55:21,079 --> 00:55:24,359
Speaker 3: half drive back, a few hours over there, and that's

967
00:55:24,399 --> 00:55:26,879
Speaker 3: already a lot of hours without drinking for your dad.

968
00:55:27,799 --> 00:55:30,799
Speaker 3: Often what happens with alcoholics is they don't want to

969
00:55:30,799 --> 00:55:33,999
Speaker 3: be that far from a drink, and too if they

970
00:55:33,999 --> 00:55:35,679
Speaker 3: can't drink at the old place, which I think they

971
00:55:36,079 --> 00:55:39,519
Speaker 3: are not allowed to, and they know that, then coming

972
00:55:39,559 --> 00:55:42,559
Speaker 3: there is difficult because it's being dry for way longer

973
00:55:42,559 --> 00:55:44,319
Speaker 3: than they he would ordinarily.

974
00:55:45,039 --> 00:55:47,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think so for sure, because I know if

975
00:55:47,839 --> 00:55:49,999
Speaker 4: they go to my brother's house, who's about the same

976
00:55:50,039 --> 00:55:52,879
Speaker 4: distance from them in another direction, they can.

977
00:55:52,799 --> 00:55:54,079
Speaker 5: Visit there for a lot longer.

978
00:55:54,639 --> 00:55:57,999
Speaker 4: But my brother drinks and lets them drink and right,

979
00:55:58,399 --> 00:55:59,839
Speaker 4: So I'm sure that's a huge part of it.

980
00:55:59,959 --> 00:56:02,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, does he have brother visit, does he have a family?

981
00:56:02,959 --> 00:56:05,639
Speaker 3: Does he visit visit us?

982
00:56:05,759 --> 00:56:11,119
Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, he he comes here, not that much.

983
00:56:11,679 --> 00:56:13,999
Speaker 4: In fact, the last time he came to visit, they

984
00:56:14,039 --> 00:56:17,599
Speaker 4: came in the morning and he brought beer with him

985
00:56:18,359 --> 00:56:22,239
Speaker 4: and was drinking nine thirty ten in the morning.

986
00:56:23,439 --> 00:56:25,159
Speaker 1: Did you feel comfortable with that?

987
00:56:27,999 --> 00:56:29,559
Speaker 5: It concerns me for sure.

988
00:56:30,479 --> 00:56:34,759
Speaker 1: Have you and your brother ever discussed his alcoholism and

989
00:56:34,839 --> 00:56:36,319
Speaker 1: has he ever gotten treatment for it?

990
00:56:36,959 --> 00:56:42,399
Speaker 4: No, He's had a history of drug overdoses before he

991
00:56:42,479 --> 00:56:46,279
Speaker 4: was impatient when he was a senior in high school.

992
00:56:46,279 --> 00:56:53,639
Speaker 4: I think for attended suicide. He smokes marijuana regularly, drinks regularly,

993
00:56:53,759 --> 00:56:55,639
Speaker 4: And I've asked him why do you feel they need

994
00:56:55,679 --> 00:56:57,399
Speaker 4: to do those things? Like why do you feel they

995
00:56:57,399 --> 00:57:01,039
Speaker 4: need to drink that much? And he's you know, professed

996
00:57:01,079 --> 00:57:03,079
Speaker 4: like you know sometimes where I have a problem, I

997
00:57:03,199 --> 00:57:05,799
Speaker 4: drink too much or I probably need to cut back,

998
00:57:05,919 --> 00:57:10,039
Speaker 4: And he's aware that he has a problem, and then

999
00:57:10,159 --> 00:57:11,999
Speaker 4: he tries to get better and then he goes right

1000
00:57:11,999 --> 00:57:12,639
Speaker 4: back to it.

1001
00:57:12,679 --> 00:57:17,879
Speaker 1: You know. After the suicide attempt, what was your parents'

1002
00:57:17,919 --> 00:57:20,399
Speaker 1: reaction to that? Did that serve as any kind of

1003
00:57:20,479 --> 00:57:22,079
Speaker 1: wake up call for them.

1004
00:57:22,999 --> 00:57:28,639
Speaker 4: He has told me that after he got released, that

1005
00:57:29,279 --> 00:57:33,439
Speaker 4: my mom took him to a bunch of different counselors,

1006
00:57:34,439 --> 00:57:38,119
Speaker 4: and that the counselors had kind of presented to my

1007
00:57:38,199 --> 00:57:40,159
Speaker 4: mom some of the reasons for why he was having

1008
00:57:40,199 --> 00:57:46,119
Speaker 4: these behaviors, implying that it was outcomes from our home life,

1009
00:57:46,199 --> 00:57:49,079
Speaker 4: you know, that sort of thing, and my mom didn't

1010
00:57:49,119 --> 00:57:51,839
Speaker 4: like it, so she'd take him to another counselor another counselor.

1011
00:57:52,199 --> 00:57:55,759
Speaker 4: He went to four or five different ones, because from

1012
00:57:55,799 --> 00:57:59,479
Speaker 4: what he tells me, my mom wasn't getting the answers

1013
00:57:59,479 --> 00:58:02,839
Speaker 4: that she wanted, which was it he had a serious problem.

1014
00:58:03,039 --> 00:58:05,119
Speaker 4: From what he says, that they were pointing out that

1015
00:58:05,279 --> 00:58:09,279
Speaker 4: it was an outcome of, you know, my dad's drinking

1016
00:58:09,399 --> 00:58:10,999
Speaker 4: and that kind of stuff that has led to this,

1017
00:58:12,039 --> 00:58:13,039
Speaker 4: and she didn't want to hear that.

1018
00:58:15,759 --> 00:58:18,079
Speaker 1: I think maybe he doesn't understand that the war is

1019
00:58:18,119 --> 00:58:21,599
Speaker 1: over either, that as an adult he can go get

1020
00:58:21,599 --> 00:58:26,039
Speaker 1: treatment and he can go understand some of these things better,

1021
00:58:26,639 --> 00:58:31,279
Speaker 1: so he can understand himself better and what's holding him

1022
00:58:31,319 --> 00:58:33,959
Speaker 1: back from really being present in his life. So I

1023
00:58:33,999 --> 00:58:36,079
Speaker 1: think both of you kind of came out of the

1024
00:58:36,119 --> 00:58:40,959
Speaker 1: war shell shocked with tons of PTSD and you still

1025
00:58:40,959 --> 00:58:45,159
Speaker 1: don't understand what it means to be out of the

1026
00:58:45,199 --> 00:58:46,679
Speaker 1: war zone. Yeah.

1027
00:58:47,639 --> 00:58:48,279
Speaker 5: Yeah, for sure.

1028
00:58:48,719 --> 00:58:52,439
Speaker 1: It's interesting because you're trying so hard not to be

1029
00:58:52,639 --> 00:58:56,719
Speaker 1: your dad and he was trying so hard not to

1030
00:58:56,759 --> 00:59:01,759
Speaker 1: be his dad. I think that you personalize the fact

1031
00:59:01,759 --> 00:59:04,919
Speaker 1: that he can't apologize to you, But in his mind,

1032
00:59:04,999 --> 00:59:08,319
Speaker 1: I think he truly believes I was such a better

1033
00:59:08,399 --> 00:59:11,279
Speaker 1: dad to my kids then my dad was to me,

1034
00:59:12,599 --> 00:59:15,319
Speaker 1: and he probably feels like he's not getting any credit

1035
00:59:15,359 --> 00:59:18,719
Speaker 1: for it, and that's why he defends himself so much,

1036
00:59:18,759 --> 00:59:21,159
Speaker 1: and also the shame that comes up when he realizes

1037
00:59:21,799 --> 00:59:24,319
Speaker 1: I actually was like my dad in a lot of ways,

1038
00:59:24,839 --> 00:59:27,559
Speaker 1: and he has so much shame around that that he

1039
00:59:27,759 --> 00:59:32,519
Speaker 1: just can't acknowledge it himself much less to you. That

1040
00:59:32,559 --> 00:59:37,719
Speaker 1: doesn't excuse any of his behavior, but it might give

1041
00:59:37,759 --> 00:59:41,279
Speaker 1: you a different kind of framework to think about why

1042
00:59:41,319 --> 00:59:43,639
Speaker 1: he had to write the ten page manifesto to you,

1043
00:59:44,359 --> 00:59:47,719
Speaker 1: why he can't acknowledge the effect that his behavior had

1044
00:59:47,759 --> 00:59:48,119
Speaker 1: on you.

1045
00:59:49,919 --> 00:59:50,119
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1046
00:59:50,159 --> 00:59:51,239
Speaker 5: I thought about that.

1047
00:59:52,599 --> 00:59:55,279
Speaker 4: As much as I want them to own it and

1048
00:59:56,279 --> 01:00:02,159
Speaker 4: acknowledge it to me, I can see how that would

1049
01:00:02,199 --> 01:00:05,879
Speaker 4: be very difficult what I'm.

1050
01:00:05,759 --> 01:00:08,399
Speaker 1: Saying, Jason, is that it's hard to acknowledge to somebody

1051
01:00:08,479 --> 01:00:12,079
Speaker 1: else what you won't acknowledge to yourself. And I don't

1052
01:00:12,159 --> 01:00:16,359
Speaker 1: think that your dad can hold on to anything that

1053
01:00:16,559 --> 01:00:20,279
Speaker 1: happened from your perspective, because he feels so much shame.

1054
01:00:20,639 --> 01:00:22,959
Speaker 1: He feels so much like I trade so hard to

1055
01:00:22,999 --> 01:00:25,319
Speaker 1: get away from being my father, and when you bring

1056
01:00:25,359 --> 01:00:29,839
Speaker 1: this up, he thinks maybe I was like my father

1057
01:00:30,439 --> 01:00:33,359
Speaker 1: in these ways. And I don't think he can acknowledge

1058
01:00:33,399 --> 01:00:37,319
Speaker 1: that to himself long enough, if at all, to be

1059
01:00:37,359 --> 01:00:38,639
Speaker 1: able to acknowledge that to you.

1060
01:00:39,319 --> 01:00:39,559
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1061
01:00:41,199 --> 01:00:46,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, what you're talking about is intergenerational trauma. That we

1062
01:00:46,759 --> 01:00:49,319
Speaker 1: have an emotional inheritance. Just like we have a genetic

1063
01:00:49,359 --> 01:00:53,559
Speaker 1: inheritance with our DNA and our physical characteristics, there's an

1064
01:00:53,599 --> 01:00:57,239
Speaker 1: emotional inheritance too that gets passed down from generation to

1065
01:00:57,319 --> 01:01:01,439
Speaker 1: generation until somebody puts a stop to it. And it

1066
01:01:01,479 --> 01:01:04,719
Speaker 1: sounds like you are that person in your family doing

1067
01:01:04,759 --> 01:01:08,439
Speaker 1: that for the next generation. And while you're doing that,

1068
01:01:08,519 --> 01:01:11,519
Speaker 1: you're having some co inflict about what does that mean

1069
01:01:11,559 --> 01:01:14,799
Speaker 1: to do that and also be a good son?

1070
01:01:19,999 --> 01:01:22,879
Speaker 3: Sug Jesson. We do have some advice for you, and

1071
01:01:22,919 --> 01:01:27,279
Speaker 3: that advice comes from the following place. We spoke about

1072
01:01:27,319 --> 01:01:31,919
Speaker 3: intergenerational trauma, and we really see it in your family.

1073
01:01:31,959 --> 01:01:36,719
Speaker 3: Your grandfather had World War Two, your dad had the

1074
01:01:36,759 --> 01:01:39,799
Speaker 3: residual of World War Two that his dad brought home,

1075
01:01:40,359 --> 01:01:43,879
Speaker 3: and that was his own war. And then you've had

1076
01:01:44,279 --> 01:01:48,479
Speaker 3: your own war with your dad. And what we are

1077
01:01:48,599 --> 01:01:53,799
Speaker 3: so impressed with is the remarkable job that you've done

1078
01:01:54,439 --> 01:01:58,519
Speaker 3: and making sure you're the last one to deal with

1079
01:01:58,559 --> 01:02:05,079
Speaker 3: the war. Because you've done a masterful job of finding

1080
01:02:05,119 --> 01:02:09,279
Speaker 3: a way to end the war and to protect your

1081
01:02:09,439 --> 01:02:13,719
Speaker 3: family and even to protect yourself. You can have your

1082
01:02:13,719 --> 01:02:17,199
Speaker 3: parents come and visit in a way that's safe because

1083
01:02:17,239 --> 01:02:20,519
Speaker 3: it's for limited amounts of time. It's earlier in the day,

1084
01:02:20,879 --> 01:02:23,279
Speaker 3: but they can be there for your kids. They can

1085
01:02:23,319 --> 01:02:26,759
Speaker 3: have grandparents and you can even see them in action

1086
01:02:26,919 --> 01:02:31,159
Speaker 3: with all the difficult feelings that brings up. And it's

1087
01:02:31,199 --> 01:02:36,359
Speaker 3: not just that you've stopped the transmission of the intergenerational trauma.

1088
01:02:36,479 --> 01:02:40,039
Speaker 3: You've really done things in a radically different way. Your

1089
01:02:40,039 --> 01:02:43,239
Speaker 3: brother's drinking at nine point thirty, and you've had to

1090
01:02:43,279 --> 01:02:45,359
Speaker 3: come such a long way in order to make sure

1091
01:02:45,519 --> 01:02:50,759
Speaker 3: it stops with you. But you have, and we're not

1092
01:02:50,799 --> 01:02:55,039
Speaker 3: sure that that part has really registered with you yet,

1093
01:02:55,399 --> 01:02:59,439
Speaker 3: because you're still at war with your feelings. So peace

1094
01:02:59,479 --> 01:03:04,479
Speaker 3: time is here and you're not enjoying it because you're

1095
01:03:04,559 --> 01:03:10,599
Speaker 3: still living the war. And so what we'd like you

1096
01:03:10,679 --> 01:03:13,799
Speaker 3: to do this week is would like you to come

1097
01:03:13,879 --> 01:03:18,239
Speaker 3: up with the ritual that symbolizes the end of the

1098
01:03:18,279 --> 01:03:22,319
Speaker 3: war for you. When we were talking about that, one

1099
01:03:22,319 --> 01:03:26,439
Speaker 3: thing I thought about was that iconic image of the

1100
01:03:26,479 --> 01:03:30,119
Speaker 3: sailor in Times Square kissing that lady. You're smiling, you

1101
01:03:30,159 --> 01:03:32,599
Speaker 3: know the image, and we were thinking maybe you and

1102
01:03:32,639 --> 01:03:35,519
Speaker 3: your wife need to replicate that image or do something similar.

1103
01:03:35,559 --> 01:03:37,639
Speaker 3: But really, just as an example, we want you to

1104
01:03:37,639 --> 01:03:40,679
Speaker 3: come up with some kind of ritual in which you

1105
01:03:40,759 --> 01:03:44,159
Speaker 3: and your wife know that you are celebrating the fact

1106
01:03:44,199 --> 01:03:47,759
Speaker 3: that you've ended the war and you've done it really successfully.

1107
01:03:47,919 --> 01:03:51,999
Speaker 3: We think despite the war, you're still act with your feelings.

1108
01:03:52,479 --> 01:03:54,839
Speaker 3: So that's one of the tasks we'd like you to

1109
01:03:54,839 --> 01:03:57,919
Speaker 3: accomplish this week, to talk with your wife, think together,

1110
01:03:58,359 --> 01:04:01,199
Speaker 3: and really come up with a ritual that would be

1111
01:04:01,319 --> 01:04:05,479
Speaker 3: symbolic for you to imply the war's over. I want

1112
01:04:05,479 --> 01:04:10,959
Speaker 3: it for myself and for my family. Enjoy it because

1113
01:04:10,999 --> 01:04:12,319
Speaker 3: we are living in peace.

1114
01:04:14,399 --> 01:04:15,719
Speaker 5: Okay, I like that.

1115
01:04:16,799 --> 01:04:20,279
Speaker 1: And then, because we feel like the war that you're

1116
01:04:20,279 --> 01:04:25,919
Speaker 1: still waging is the war with your feelings and specifically anger, sadness,

1117
01:04:26,319 --> 01:04:30,279
Speaker 1: and grieving, we feel like that the price that you

1118
01:04:30,479 --> 01:04:32,719
Speaker 1: pay for the war with your feelings is that you

1119
01:04:32,759 --> 01:04:35,879
Speaker 1: do cut off joy, and so we want you to

1120
01:04:37,879 --> 01:04:41,799
Speaker 1: end that war as well. And one way to do

1121
01:04:41,839 --> 01:04:43,719
Speaker 1: that is to start really getting in touch with those

1122
01:04:43,719 --> 01:04:45,999
Speaker 1: feelings and the way that you did in our conversation today.

1123
01:04:46,719 --> 01:04:48,199
Speaker 1: But what we'd like you to do is we'd like

1124
01:04:48,239 --> 01:04:53,239
Speaker 1: you to write down three incidents from childhood that were

1125
01:04:53,799 --> 01:04:56,919
Speaker 1: painful for you, and then we'd like you to make

1126
01:04:56,959 --> 01:04:59,599
Speaker 1: two columns. We'd like you to make an anger column

1127
01:05:00,079 --> 01:05:03,679
Speaker 1: and a sadness column, and we'd like you to write

1128
01:05:03,719 --> 01:05:08,519
Speaker 1: down in great detail without editing yourself, like earlier when

1129
01:05:08,519 --> 01:05:11,319
Speaker 1: I said, what would that young boy say when his

1130
01:05:11,399 --> 01:05:14,119
Speaker 1: father spit in his face? And I said, I think

1131
01:05:14,159 --> 01:05:16,919
Speaker 1: he might say I can't stand you, And you said, oh,

1132
01:05:16,919 --> 01:05:19,879
Speaker 1: I could never say that, but the little boy was

1133
01:05:19,879 --> 01:05:23,759
Speaker 1: probably feeling that. And so we want you to write down,

1134
01:05:23,759 --> 01:05:25,999
Speaker 1: in the anger column and in the sadness columns, in

1135
01:05:26,079 --> 01:05:29,479
Speaker 1: great detail, what that little boy might say, and it

1136
01:05:29,559 --> 01:05:31,359
Speaker 1: might help you to think about if you did that

1137
01:05:31,479 --> 01:05:36,479
Speaker 1: to your kids, what might they be feeling, And that

1138
01:05:36,519 --> 01:05:39,039
Speaker 1: will get you closer to some of those feelings that

1139
01:05:39,199 --> 01:05:42,559
Speaker 1: feel so scary to you. They feel like the enemy.

1140
01:05:42,639 --> 01:05:46,399
Speaker 1: Anger is the enemy because anger looks like emotional or

1141
01:05:46,439 --> 01:05:52,159
Speaker 1: physical violence. Sadness is the enemy because it brings back

1142
01:05:52,199 --> 01:05:55,919
Speaker 1: all those memories. But what you don't realize is that

1143
01:05:56,799 --> 01:05:59,639
Speaker 1: there's also the sides of anger and sadness that are

1144
01:05:59,759 --> 01:06:02,959
Speaker 1: very healing and very liberating. And we think it'll be

1145
01:06:03,039 --> 01:06:05,199
Speaker 1: quite a relief for you to finally be able to

1146
01:06:05,199 --> 01:06:09,119
Speaker 1: have access to those feelings. In that spirit, it will

1147
01:06:09,159 --> 01:06:12,279
Speaker 1: help he you to enjoy the post war era that

1148
01:06:12,319 --> 01:06:15,359
Speaker 1: you're now in. And so what we'd like you to

1149
01:06:15,399 --> 01:06:17,599
Speaker 1: do is we'd like you to spend two hours a

1150
01:06:17,639 --> 01:06:21,239
Speaker 1: week experiencing the joy that comes with the end of

1151
01:06:21,239 --> 01:06:25,319
Speaker 1: the war. And for you, that might be mountain biking,

1152
01:06:25,399 --> 01:06:27,719
Speaker 1: it might be playing the guitar, it might be any

1153
01:06:27,759 --> 01:06:32,759
Speaker 1: of those hobbies that are truly just for you. How

1154
01:06:32,759 --> 01:06:33,599
Speaker 1: does that sound to you?

1155
01:06:35,199 --> 01:06:39,239
Speaker 5: That's a lot, but I'm looking forward to it. Yeah.

1156
01:06:40,239 --> 01:06:43,319
Speaker 4: I like the analogy of peace time and then in

1157
01:06:43,359 --> 01:06:46,239
Speaker 4: the war. I think that resonates with me pretty significantly.

1158
01:06:46,319 --> 01:06:50,119
Speaker 1: So yeah, There's one more thing that I left out,

1159
01:06:50,159 --> 01:06:53,199
Speaker 1: which is that as you're getting in touch with your feelings,

1160
01:06:53,999 --> 01:06:57,479
Speaker 1: you will get closer to your truth. And that's a

1161
01:06:57,479 --> 01:07:00,719
Speaker 1: really positive development because when your mother then sends guilt

1162
01:07:00,759 --> 01:07:03,399
Speaker 1: to you or your father sends guilt to you, first

1163
01:07:03,439 --> 01:07:05,679
Speaker 1: of all, just because somebody sends guilt doesn't mean you

1164
01:07:05,719 --> 01:07:08,599
Speaker 1: have to accept delivery. I want you to remember that

1165
01:07:08,639 --> 01:07:11,959
Speaker 1: you don't have to sign up for the package. And

1166
01:07:11,999 --> 01:07:15,359
Speaker 1: the other part of that is you can say your truth,

1167
01:07:15,919 --> 01:07:19,799
Speaker 1: which is that Mom, Dad. The reason that we don't

1168
01:07:19,839 --> 01:07:21,759
Speaker 1: get together more, the reason that I don't come to

1169
01:07:21,839 --> 01:07:24,959
Speaker 1: your house is because we have a lot of stuff

1170
01:07:24,999 --> 01:07:29,719
Speaker 1: between us that's not been acknowledged, and I find it

1171
01:07:29,759 --> 01:07:32,679
Speaker 1: really difficult, and so I found a way to spend

1172
01:07:32,679 --> 01:07:36,319
Speaker 1: time with you that works out well. When we do

1173
01:07:36,359 --> 01:07:38,279
Speaker 1: it the other way, it doesn't work out too well.

1174
01:07:39,479 --> 01:07:42,319
Speaker 1: And if there comes a time when you're willing or

1175
01:07:42,359 --> 01:07:45,119
Speaker 1: able to acknowledge some of the things that are still

1176
01:07:45,439 --> 01:07:48,359
Speaker 1: in the air between us, that might make it easier

1177
01:07:48,959 --> 01:07:51,359
Speaker 1: for us to get together in a different way. So

1178
01:07:51,439 --> 01:07:54,959
Speaker 1: if you are open to that, I'm here, and if

1179
01:07:54,999 --> 01:07:57,319
Speaker 1: you're not, I'm glad to see you in the way

1180
01:07:57,359 --> 01:08:02,439
Speaker 1: that works for all of us. Okay, we don't know

1181
01:08:02,479 --> 01:08:05,039
Speaker 1: if that conversation will happen this week, and we don't

1182
01:08:05,039 --> 01:08:07,559
Speaker 1: know how often the guilt is delivered to you. But

1183
01:08:07,639 --> 01:08:09,479
Speaker 1: if it does, and that does happen this week, and

1184
01:08:09,519 --> 01:08:11,199
Speaker 1: you're able to say that, we'd like to hear how

1185
01:08:11,199 --> 01:08:11,999
Speaker 1: that goes as well.

1186
01:08:12,199 --> 01:08:14,399
Speaker 5: Okay, and if it doesn't.

1187
01:08:14,159 --> 01:08:15,599
Speaker 1: Happen this week, we'd like you to have that in

1188
01:08:15,639 --> 01:08:20,159
Speaker 1: your back pocket for the next time the guilt comes

1189
01:08:20,199 --> 01:08:20,879
Speaker 1: to your doorstep.

1190
01:08:21,559 --> 01:08:24,639
Speaker 4: Okay, sounds good. Thank you guys so much. I can't

1191
01:08:24,639 --> 01:08:26,079
Speaker 4: tell you how much I appreciate your time.

1192
01:08:26,759 --> 01:08:40,239
Speaker 3: You're very welcome. I think Jason is going to do

1193
01:08:40,439 --> 01:08:44,279
Speaker 3: everything we suggested. He seems like someone who does that,

1194
01:08:44,399 --> 01:08:46,599
Speaker 3: who does his best at most things, and so I'm

1195
01:08:46,639 --> 01:08:49,439
Speaker 3: sure he's going to do it. I really hope he

1196
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:51,479
Speaker 3: does it in a way that allows him to get

1197
01:08:51,479 --> 01:08:55,359
Speaker 3: the emotional experience and the emotional benefits that we're so

1198
01:08:55,519 --> 01:08:56,719
Speaker 3: much advocating for.

1199
01:08:57,519 --> 01:08:59,599
Speaker 1: And I think creating a symbol of the end of

1200
01:08:59,679 --> 01:09:04,279
Speaker 1: war that comes from him is going to help him

1201
01:09:04,279 --> 01:09:06,959
Speaker 1: have a framework around the work that he has to do.

1202
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:08,999
Speaker 1: So he's doing some things this week that I think

1203
01:09:08,999 --> 01:09:10,999
Speaker 1: you are going to be very helpful for him, and

1204
01:09:11,039 --> 01:09:12,519
Speaker 1: I think that they're going to set the stage for

1205
01:09:12,599 --> 01:09:14,839
Speaker 1: a continuation of the work that is going to help

1206
01:09:14,919 --> 01:09:16,919
Speaker 1: him truly live in peacetime.

1207
01:09:22,119 --> 01:09:25,839
Speaker 3: You're listening to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after

1208
01:09:25,879 --> 01:09:26,519
Speaker 3: a quick break.

1209
01:09:38,639 --> 01:09:41,119
Speaker 1: So, guy, we heard back from Jason, and let's see

1210
01:09:41,119 --> 01:09:43,999
Speaker 1: if he was able to take some steps to end

1211
01:09:44,119 --> 01:09:44,479
Speaker 1: the war.

1212
01:09:45,759 --> 01:09:47,839
Speaker 5: Hey Lourie, Hey guy, it's Jason.

1213
01:09:48,559 --> 01:09:51,119
Speaker 4: Just wanted to check back in with you guys and

1214
01:09:51,199 --> 01:09:54,399
Speaker 4: follow up after our conversation from earlier in the week.

1215
01:09:56,119 --> 01:09:58,519
Speaker 5: It's been a crazy week for us here. We actually

1216
01:09:59,719 --> 01:09:59,999
Speaker 5: were in.

1217
01:09:59,999 --> 01:10:04,199
Speaker 4: The process of moving this week and my wife's grandfather

1218
01:10:04,599 --> 01:10:07,999
Speaker 4: died suddenly in the midst of all of that, so

1219
01:10:08,119 --> 01:10:10,759
Speaker 4: we had quite a bit of big family stress going

1220
01:10:10,799 --> 01:10:13,959
Speaker 4: on this week. But be that as it may, I

1221
01:10:14,039 --> 01:10:17,919
Speaker 4: was able to still accomplish the tasks that you assigned me.

1222
01:10:19,359 --> 01:10:22,599
Speaker 4: The first one, you know, getting together with my wife

1223
01:10:22,679 --> 01:10:28,159
Speaker 4: and kind of coming up with a way to celebrate peacetime.

1224
01:10:28,839 --> 01:10:31,639
Speaker 4: I think it's just been really beneficial to kind of

1225
01:10:31,679 --> 01:10:35,479
Speaker 4: begin my day connecting with her and just kind of

1226
01:10:35,519 --> 01:10:40,119
Speaker 4: reaffirming the fact that.

1227
01:10:38,839 --> 01:10:41,399
Speaker 5: The war is over and it's peacetime now, and.

1228
01:10:42,919 --> 01:10:44,559
Speaker 4: I don't know if it was your intention or not,

1229
01:10:44,719 --> 01:10:48,639
Speaker 4: but you kind of gave me a new mantra that

1230
01:10:49,079 --> 01:10:52,279
Speaker 4: I've been able to kind of fall back on and

1231
01:10:52,479 --> 01:10:55,639
Speaker 4: use that, especially during the stress of this week, that

1232
01:10:55,679 --> 01:10:58,559
Speaker 4: I can constantly remind myself that the war is over

1233
01:10:58,639 --> 01:11:03,999
Speaker 4: and we're in peacetime now. In writing out experiences from

1234
01:11:03,999 --> 01:11:08,799
Speaker 4: my childhood, it's interesting to me that that's the hard

1235
01:11:08,799 --> 01:11:13,319
Speaker 4: part for me, is to still be completely honest to

1236
01:11:13,399 --> 01:11:16,759
Speaker 4: the feelings. Kind of how it was when we spoke

1237
01:11:16,799 --> 01:11:18,639
Speaker 4: the first time, how it was hard for me to

1238
01:11:18,759 --> 01:11:23,279
Speaker 4: actually be able to verbalize things such as I hate

1239
01:11:23,319 --> 01:11:26,079
Speaker 4: you and that sort of thing. Even though it's not

1240
01:11:26,119 --> 01:11:30,439
Speaker 4: being verbalized, just still depend to paper. It's still difficult

1241
01:11:31,039 --> 01:11:34,159
Speaker 4: to kind of give life to those feelings. I don't

1242
01:11:34,199 --> 01:11:36,639
Speaker 4: know how to describe it in your way, But nonetheless,

1243
01:11:36,679 --> 01:11:38,879
Speaker 4: I feel like it's a practice that I'm going to

1244
01:11:38,959 --> 01:11:44,359
Speaker 4: continue to evolve, reflecting on things when they when the

1245
01:11:44,519 --> 01:11:49,039
Speaker 4: when events and memories pop up that I can I

1246
01:11:49,079 --> 01:11:51,639
Speaker 4: can sit down and write them out and journal it,

1247
01:11:51,679 --> 01:11:53,439
Speaker 4: so to speak, and really try.

1248
01:11:53,199 --> 01:11:55,119
Speaker 5: To to kind.

1249
01:11:54,919 --> 01:11:58,039
Speaker 4: Of give life to those feelings in a safe way

1250
01:11:58,199 --> 01:12:01,399
Speaker 4: writing it down in paper. I didn't have an opportunity

1251
01:12:01,519 --> 01:12:06,239
Speaker 4: to actually speak to my parents about, you know, talking

1252
01:12:06,279 --> 01:12:09,159
Speaker 4: with you guys, the podcast, that sort of thing. But

1253
01:12:09,399 --> 01:12:12,279
Speaker 4: my mom did come over to help us watch the

1254
01:12:12,359 --> 01:12:14,559
Speaker 4: kids a little bit, to help us pack while we were.

1255
01:12:14,479 --> 01:12:17,599
Speaker 5: Dealing with this move, and it was a good visit.

1256
01:12:17,639 --> 01:12:21,079
Speaker 4: Obviously, we were under a lot of stress and I

1257
01:12:21,119 --> 01:12:23,039
Speaker 4: was really tired, but I think I was still able

1258
01:12:23,079 --> 01:12:26,679
Speaker 4: to kind of enjoy visiting with her, knowing that I,

1259
01:12:26,719 --> 01:12:27,839
Speaker 4: kind of, like I said, had that.

1260
01:12:27,799 --> 01:12:28,919
Speaker 5: Monstra to fall back on.

1261
01:12:29,599 --> 01:12:32,319
Speaker 4: The war's over and it's peacetime now and so I

1262
01:12:32,319 --> 01:12:35,879
Speaker 4: can actually just try to enjoy things as they are.

1263
01:12:35,919 --> 01:12:39,319
Speaker 4: So yeah, it's been a rough week, but it's been

1264
01:12:39,319 --> 01:12:43,039
Speaker 4: a great week. And I honestly think that this week

1265
01:12:43,079 --> 01:12:47,839
Speaker 4: would have been substantially more difficult if I hadn't had

1266
01:12:47,919 --> 01:12:51,199
Speaker 4: the blessed opportunity to speak with the two of you

1267
01:12:51,639 --> 01:12:58,159
Speaker 4: prior to the events unfolding. So I cannot convey my

1268
01:12:58,279 --> 01:13:03,559
Speaker 4: gratitude enough. How thankful I am for your guys insight

1269
01:13:04,239 --> 01:13:07,879
Speaker 4: and for the time taking the time to speak with

1270
01:13:07,959 --> 01:13:10,879
Speaker 4: me and kind of to deal with some of these issues.

1271
01:13:10,959 --> 01:13:13,239
Speaker 5: All right, I can't thank you enough.

1272
01:13:14,599 --> 01:13:16,679
Speaker 4: I appreciate everything you did for me, and I wish

1273
01:13:16,759 --> 01:13:19,199
Speaker 4: you guys both the best moving forward.

1274
01:13:19,239 --> 01:13:19,719
Speaker 5: Thanks again.

1275
01:13:23,799 --> 01:13:26,679
Speaker 3: So first I really want to offer our condolences to

1276
01:13:27,399 --> 01:13:32,919
Speaker 3: Jason's wife. It's really interesting that we gave him this

1277
01:13:32,959 --> 01:13:35,719
Speaker 3: assignment about the war being over in a week where

1278
01:13:35,719 --> 01:13:38,599
Speaker 3: they have to move the grandfather dies, but even more

1279
01:13:38,719 --> 01:13:41,759
Speaker 3: proof of how well he took it to heart, that

1280
01:13:41,799 --> 01:13:46,519
Speaker 3: he was able to persist and do those tasks during

1281
01:13:46,519 --> 01:13:49,239
Speaker 3: this very difficult week and really take in this idea

1282
01:13:49,359 --> 01:13:51,999
Speaker 3: of the war being over. I think it's a great

1283
01:13:52,039 --> 01:13:55,279
Speaker 3: mantra for him. He has a military background, but I

1284
01:13:55,359 --> 01:13:57,919
Speaker 3: do think it's a great simple way to remind himself.

1285
01:13:57,919 --> 01:14:00,119
Speaker 3: He probably says it to himself many many times a day,

1286
01:14:00,159 --> 01:14:02,999
Speaker 3: and I'm glad he does. I'm really glad that worked

1287
01:14:02,999 --> 01:14:03,919
Speaker 3: for him.

1288
01:14:04,479 --> 01:14:06,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, he had an incredibly stressful week, but I think

1289
01:14:06,999 --> 01:14:09,759
Speaker 1: it's easier to get through the stresses of life when

1290
01:14:10,119 --> 01:14:12,959
Speaker 1: you're not in a war. And even when his mother

1291
01:14:13,039 --> 01:14:17,159
Speaker 1: came over, which normally could be stressful, he had a

1292
01:14:17,239 --> 01:14:20,439
Speaker 1: nice visit with her. Again, because not only is the

1293
01:14:20,439 --> 01:14:22,759
Speaker 1: war over, but he was the one who got to

1294
01:14:22,839 --> 01:14:26,199
Speaker 1: declare it to be over. And that's an important piece

1295
01:14:26,239 --> 01:14:29,719
Speaker 1: because when the war's internal, it's always in our power

1296
01:14:29,919 --> 01:14:37,239
Speaker 1: to end it. Next week, our fellow Traveler struggles with

1297
01:14:37,279 --> 01:14:39,719
Speaker 1: the heartbreak of infertility and pregnancy loss.

1298
01:14:40,079 --> 01:14:42,839
Speaker 6: I had a really, really, really hard time without loss.

1299
01:14:43,399 --> 01:14:46,679
Speaker 6: I was probably a month out from surgery when my

1300
01:14:46,919 --> 01:14:47,719
Speaker 6: brother and sister in.

1301
01:14:47,759 --> 01:14:48,999
Speaker 1: Law announced they were pregnant.

1302
01:14:49,079 --> 01:14:50,999
Speaker 6: It really kind of sucked the air out of me,

1303
01:14:51,399 --> 01:14:54,639
Speaker 6: and that really caused like a big friction and my

1304
01:14:54,719 --> 01:14:57,439
Speaker 6: relationship with my brother and sister in law because I

1305
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Speaker 6: just didn't want to be around them.

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Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,

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Speaker 1: don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't

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Speaker 1: miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by

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Speaker 1: telling your friends about it and leaving a review on

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.

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Speaker 3: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

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Speaker 3: Big O Smooth, email us at Lorianguy at iHeartMedia dot com.

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Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

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Speaker 1: by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns

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Speaker 1: are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison

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Speaker 1: Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Kuric we can't.

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Speaker 3: Wait to see you at next week's session.

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Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio