Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridge Todd and this
Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Welcome to
Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, where we explore
Speaker 1: the intersections of identity, social media, and technology and y'all,
Speaker 1: I take one week from rounding up the news and
Speaker 1: we get the big update that is the big TikTok update. Joey,
Speaker 1: were you surprised to see that Biden signed legislation essentially
Speaker 1: banning TikTok into law this week?
Speaker 2: Like, I want to say that I'm I was surprised,
Speaker 2: but at this point, I don't know, I'm not not
Speaker 2: really not really surprised. I feel like, who's to say,
Speaker 2: what's happening with this administration?
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's kind of how I feel. So I
Speaker 1: want to tell folks like what's going on, and then
Speaker 1: I'll get into sort of my thoughts about it. So,
Speaker 1: in case you have not heard, this week, President Biden
Speaker 1: signed a foreign aid package that includes a bill that
Speaker 1: would ban TikTok if the China based parent company Byte
Speaker 1: Dance fails to divest from the app and sell it
Speaker 1: to a non Chinese owned company. We have been talking
Speaker 1: about the potential for a TikTok ban for a while.
Speaker 1: It sounds like there was some like very serious political
Speaker 1: maneuvering to get where we are today. So earlier this year,
Speaker 1: House lawmakers overwhelmingly voted in favor the bill called the
Speaker 1: Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act when it
Speaker 1: was brought as like a standalone measure with a shorter
Speaker 1: timeframe for byte Dance to sell TikTok. So that timeframe
Speaker 1: was six months. It seemed like that bill, even though
Speaker 1: a lot of people in the House were like, yes,
Speaker 1: this bill like it passed overwhelmingly, it seemed like it
Speaker 1: might have had trouble passing in the Senate, Like key
Speaker 1: Senate leaders were pretty noncommittal about it, some even signal
Speaker 1: that they might not vote for it. So the way
Speaker 1: to get this TikTok legislation through then became bundling it
Speaker 1: into the High Priority Foreign Aid Package, which essentially forced
Speaker 1: the Senate to take up the issue earlier than it
Speaker 1: probably would have otherwise. Right, So, how this worked was
Speaker 1: that in addition to separate votes on aid packages for Ukraine, Israel,
Speaker 1: and Taiwan, lawmakers were also voting on the twenty first
Speaker 1: century Piece Through Strength Act, which was sort of like
Speaker 1: a grab bag of popular national security measures that Slate
Speaker 1: reports included things like bills to seize frozen Russian assets
Speaker 1: or the ability to impose sanctions on Ventanel traffickers, and
Speaker 1: a lot more sort of like national security stuff, and
Speaker 1: that the Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act
Speaker 1: aka the TikTok legislation was sort of bundled within that
Speaker 1: larger legislation. In order to get aid for any of
Speaker 1: these countries, senators had to vote for the entire package,
Speaker 1: which included the TikTok bills. That's kind of how we
Speaker 1: got to where we are right now, where in earlier episodes, Joey,
Speaker 1: you and I were like, oh, maybe it'll happen, like
Speaker 1: maybe the Senate will pass it. I guess we're gonna
Speaker 1: discuss it. We'll see how we went from that to like, oh,
Speaker 1: now to sign into law.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels like the kind of thing that like
Speaker 2: shouldn't happen in a functioning democracy. I will say, like,
Speaker 2: I don't. It feels like the kind of thing that
Speaker 2: maybe we shouldn't just have like a grab bag of
Speaker 2: different legislation that has to all be passed together, which
Speaker 2: all on its own is you know, open to scrutiny.
Speaker 2: But yeah, the piece through strength act too like that.
Speaker 2: I'm not one to say things sound like they're like
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four esque, but that is a nineteen eighty
Speaker 2: four type law. Name like, are you serious like that?
Speaker 2: I don't know, and yeah, no, I will, I mean,
Speaker 2: like you said, I will admit I was. I honestly
Speaker 2: did not think this is going to pass. I thought
Speaker 2: the Biden administration current is facing ill a lot of
Speaker 2: scrutiny about a lot of different issues, and a lot
Speaker 2: of different issues, particularly.
Speaker 3: That young people are paying attention to.
Speaker 2: You know, I would have thought this maybe would have
Speaker 2: been a little bit less priority for them, but guess not.
Speaker 3: Guess not.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is so. So I want to get into
Speaker 1: that because I feel like that is really coloring a
Speaker 1: lot of a conversation is like that exact sentiment, And
Speaker 1: I feel like, I think I've said this on the
Speaker 1: show before that I thought that we would see a
Speaker 1: TikTok ban in twenty twenty four, like I was. That
Speaker 1: was on my my bingo card of legislation that I
Speaker 1: thought was gonna happen. However, I think the fact that
Speaker 1: we were talking about this standalone legislation and then we're
Speaker 1: talking about it as bundled in these these foreign aid packages,
Speaker 1: Like I guess, I'm surprised by how it ended up happening,
Speaker 1: how quickly it happened. I thought we had a lot
Speaker 1: more time, but here we are. So in the previous
Speaker 1: version of this standalone legislation, Bite Dan's had six months
Speaker 1: to sell TikTok to a non Chinese owner. But the
Speaker 1: legislation that Biden just signed into law this week extends
Speaker 1: that timeline. So the new law would allow TikTok to
Speaker 1: continue to operate in the US if Fight Dance sold
Speaker 1: it within two hundred and seventy days or about nine months,
Speaker 1: a time frame that Biden could extend up to a year.
Speaker 1: In case you're wondering, this timeline puts the date of
Speaker 1: sale and whatever happens after that sale after the election
Speaker 1: in November, which I cannot imagine is by coincidence. I
Speaker 1: wonder why he picked that date, you know, So lawmakers
Speaker 1: are really going out of their way to try to
Speaker 1: make sure that people don't think of this as a
Speaker 1: TikTok ban specifically, they're like, TikTok ban, what are you
Speaker 1: talking about? Like, we love TikTok, We don't want to
Speaker 1: keep TikTok from people. So Virginia Democrat Mark Warner, who
Speaker 1: was one of the lawmakers who was really pushing this legislation, said,
Speaker 1: I don't want to make clear to all Americans, this
Speaker 1: is not an effort to take your voice away. Many Americans,
Speaker 1: particularly young Americans, are rightfully skeptical. At the end of
Speaker 1: the day, They've not seen what Congress said. They've not
Speaker 1: been in the classified briefings that Congress has held, which
Speaker 1: have delved more deeply into some of the threats posed
Speaker 1: by foreign control of TikTok. But what they have seen
Speaker 1: beyond even this bill is Congress has failure to enact
Speaker 1: meaningful consumer protections on big tech and may cynically view
Speaker 1: this as a diversion or worse, a concession to US
Speaker 1: social media platforms. To those young Americans, Joey, I want
Speaker 1: to say, we hear your concern, and we hope that
Speaker 1: TikTok will continue under new ownership American or otherwise, what
Speaker 1: do you think about that?
Speaker 2: You know, I really feel seen and heard I really
Speaker 2: feel like the Democratic Party definitely got at all of
Speaker 2: my concerns about this legigulation.
Speaker 3: I yeah, oh my god, that makes so much sense.
Speaker 2: Of course, it's just classified information that we haven't seen.
Speaker 3: It's I don't know, I mean.
Speaker 2: That's so that's such a ridiculous statement for so many reasons. Like,
Speaker 2: first of all, that is so so paiere, and I
Speaker 2: feel like that like we're in.
Speaker 3: A weird spot where I think a lot.
Speaker 2: Of politicians are very much like leaning on that, like well,
Speaker 2: you know, it's just well, there's classified information you don't
Speaker 2: know about or whatever, and I don't think that's working
Speaker 2: as well in this situation, because, like the whole point
Speaker 2: is it's an issue of freedom of speech, and it's
Speaker 2: an issue of like, hey, you've had all these very
Speaker 2: public congressional trials. I mean we all saw that the
Speaker 2: congressional trial and the clip of them asking the Singaporean
Speaker 2: CEO of TikTok if he was a member of the
Speaker 2: Communist Party of China or whatever. So I feel like
Speaker 2: that that excuse doesn't hold up as well. And then yeah,
Speaker 2: like they're they're he just laid it out there, he said.
Speaker 3: You know, oh no, no, no, don't worry.
Speaker 2: The issue isn't that we're caving to us social media platforms,
Speaker 2: except that is exactly what's happening.
Speaker 3: Like, Yeah, I don't know, it feels it's it's so.
Speaker 2: Strange and so patronizing, and I I think feel very
Speaker 2: similarly to a lot of these young Americans that he's
Speaker 2: addressing and that this this sounds like bullshit.
Speaker 1: And I think the reason why it sounds like bullshit
Speaker 1: is that we just don't know what he's referring to.
Speaker 1: It's classified, right, so exactly, you know, they've cited national
Speaker 1: security concerns stemming from the app's Chinese ownership. Specifically, they
Speaker 1: have talked about like the possibility of the Chinese government
Speaker 1: like accessing data of American users or using the app
Speaker 1: and it's like very powerful algorithm to spread propaganda or
Speaker 1: influence elections and spread chaos. Right as far as I know,
Speaker 1: like this is a little bit out of my wheelhouse,
Speaker 1: as far as I know, to us the American people,
Speaker 1: that is largely like theoretical, like oh, they could potentially,
Speaker 1: they could do this. It's not like we have a
Speaker 1: smoking gun of them doing that on like a wide scale.
Speaker 1: I'm not in these these classified briefings, So I have
Speaker 1: no idea. But members of Congress are referring to information
Speaker 1: that they say that they have seen and heard in
Speaker 1: the security briefings about the potential for TikTok to harm
Speaker 1: American interests. But we just don't know about any of
Speaker 1: that because the contents of these briefings are not public.
Speaker 1: So we're just being told, TikTok this app that you're
Speaker 1: using every day, that many many of these elected officials,
Speaker 1: Biden included, are using all the time, it is this
Speaker 1: massive security threat. Just trust us.
Speaker 2: I think the real issue is I think a lot
Speaker 2: of these Congress people are just upset that they're not
Speaker 2: getting the number of followers that I thought they would
Speaker 2: get on TikTok. That's my theory because and that's understandable,
Speaker 2: you know what, I get it. I've been frustrated sometimes
Speaker 2: when I made a video that I put a lot
Speaker 2: of effort into and I wanted it to perform better.
Speaker 2: That's understandable. If that's your reason for wanting to ban TikTok,
Speaker 2: just say that, I think you'll get a lot more
Speaker 2: people on your side.
Speaker 1: Listen. I would be sympathetic. I tried TikTok and TikTok
Speaker 1: for me was a flop. I am not a TikTok early.
Speaker 1: It's just like, I have to accept that about myself.
Speaker 1: So I would be if they came out and said that,
Speaker 1: I would be they would have my sympathy. I'd be like, Oh,
Speaker 1: my TikTok's never do numbers either. I get it.
Speaker 3: We all been there.
Speaker 1: So there is some talk of the need for transparency
Speaker 1: into what these lawmakers are saying that like, we don't know.
Speaker 1: Democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal and Republican Senator Marshall Blackburn are
Speaker 1: calling for TikTok briefings to be declassified so that the
Speaker 1: government can quote better educate the public on the need
Speaker 1: for urgent action. We are deeply troubled by the information
Speaker 1: and concerns raised by the intelligence community in recent classified
Speaker 1: briefings to Congress. TikTok is a weapon in the hands
Speaker 1: of the Chinese government and poses an active risk to
Speaker 1: our democratic institutions and national security.
Speaker 2: They wrote, Uh, Senators Blumenthal and Blackburn, that is the
Speaker 2: duo that also brought you the Kids Online Safety Act.
Speaker 1: So oh, there we go.
Speaker 2: Take I mean, you know, I am very curious to
Speaker 2: see what what I you know what I think. Actually, yeah,
Speaker 2: if if they do release this information, if you show
Speaker 2: the public what is what actually is the scary classified
Speaker 2: information that that is the reason I need a band TikTok.
Speaker 2: But knowing them and their history, it's probably just like
Speaker 2: there were trans people on the app.
Speaker 1: Yes, And I think that Joey, I think that you
Speaker 1: and I talked about this. Blackburn specifically earlier in earlier
Speaker 1: iterations of the Kids Online Safety Act, was like pretty
Speaker 1: explicitly when I asked like, oh, what's your beef with
Speaker 1: the internet, Like why do you want to have this?
Speaker 1: Why do you want to regulate it in this way?
Speaker 1: She was like, oh, you know, we were planning on
Speaker 1: using it to make sure that content about transidentity doesn't
Speaker 1: reach youth. We want to keep youth from that kind
Speaker 1: of unsafe information. And then people were like really, and
Speaker 1: then she was like, oh, no, no, I was misquot
Speaker 1: when I was misquoted, but it's like a video, so
Speaker 1: you really were misquoted. I saw you say it on
Speaker 1: a video with my eyes.
Speaker 3: Guys, it was out of context.
Speaker 1: That is really good, Like, I'm glad that you added that,
Speaker 1: and honestly, like, when it comes to something as expansive
Speaker 1: and impactful as like regulating the Internet or regulating the
Speaker 1: social media apps that we use, which, by the way,
Speaker 1: I don't want to make it seem like I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: platforms should just be able to do with they whatever
Speaker 1: they want, Like that is not how I feel. However,
Speaker 1: it does just highlight that like people like Blackburn, who
Speaker 1: have a really clear public record of how she feels
Speaker 1: and how she is going to use this kind of
Speaker 1: Internet legislation and regulation to further marginalize and criminalize marginalize
Speaker 1: people Like we're not making that up. She says that
Speaker 1: it is concerning to me that these are the people
Speaker 1: who are being tasked with making changes and laws about
Speaker 1: how we access or don't access the Internet. Like that,
Speaker 1: on its face is really troubling to me. Let's take
Speaker 1: a quick break back, so find this on this legislation.
Speaker 1: What happens now, Well, probably for all of us and
Speaker 1: all of you listening, nothing really in the short term.
Speaker 1: So first of all, TikTok is not going anywhere for
Speaker 1: at least a couple of months. The countdown clock where
Speaker 1: they need to sell has started, but like they have
Speaker 1: eight months to do to figure that out. So It's
Speaker 1: not like TikTok's not gonna work on your phone right now.
Speaker 1: But even still, this probably is the beginning of what
Speaker 1: will be a complicated legal challenge. TikTok has already signaled
Speaker 1: that they intend to fight this legislation in the courts.
Speaker 1: TikTok's chief executive show Too said, rest assured, we are
Speaker 1: not going anywhere. We are confident and we will keep
Speaker 1: fighting for your rights in the courts. Side note, it
Speaker 1: is really interesting to me how TikTok has framed this
Speaker 1: as like we are fighting for your rights. Like I
Speaker 1: love TikTok. I'm actually wearing a TikTok sweatshirt right now,
Speaker 1: I cut from an event, which like, it's not because
Speaker 1: I'm in the bag for big TikTok. Although if they
Speaker 1: wanted to pay me, no, I'm just kidding. No, I
Speaker 1: don't take money from social media platforms. But yeah, yet,
Speaker 1: I mean, nobody's made me a compelling offer this This
Speaker 1: sweatshirt is very nice, but it's not gonna cut it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting how they've been able to publicly
Speaker 1: frame this as like, oh, we're not fighting for our
Speaker 1: like platform that we run and own and make money
Speaker 1: from we're fighting for you and your rights. Like It's
Speaker 1: an interesting framing one that I don't totally agree with,
Speaker 1: but I get why they're I get why they're framing
Speaker 1: it that way. Like when I was looking at the
Speaker 1: images from some of the in person like rallies in
Speaker 1: support of TikTok, TikTok had clearly given out signs for
Speaker 1: folks to hold that would say like, I'm one of
Speaker 1: the however many TikTok users there are in America who
Speaker 1: wants my rights represented. Like they've really been able to
Speaker 1: frame this as like a grassroots like we're just fighting
Speaker 1: for your it's kind of thing like Airbnb. I feel like,
Speaker 1: really set the playbook for how to how to make
Speaker 1: it seem like, oh, this isn't like a big tech
Speaker 1: company advocating in this way. This is like just local, grassroots,
Speaker 1: mom and pop small businesses. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: Oh, bridge it so it's like you, uh have some
Speaker 2: some personal experience with the airbnbs or can I.
Speaker 1: Say I do? I do? That is a conversation for
Speaker 1: another day. But I know quite a bit about it.
Speaker 2: Actually, Yeah, No, it has been strange though, I mean
Speaker 2: I understand why they're doing it. It's a it's a
Speaker 2: good like, for lack of a better word, propaganda technique
Speaker 2: to get people to be on your side. And I mean,
Speaker 2: I don't, I don't fully agree with what they're saying.
Speaker 3: But at the same time, it is.
Speaker 2: A First Amendment you know issue, and I it is
Speaker 2: a it is definitely, it's definitely straight. We're in a
Speaker 2: very strange well, I mean, I don't know, We're we're
Speaker 2: walking around talking about what is happening kind of on
Speaker 2: a larger scale right now in the US regarding freedom
Speaker 2: of speech and the fact that there have been massive
Speaker 2: crackdowns on peaceful protests and freedom of speech happening across
Speaker 2: the country on college campuses and you know, beyond.
Speaker 3: But it is.
Speaker 2: This, Yeah, it is a weird situation. And it is TikTok,
Speaker 2: you know, not necessarily. They don't have the best track
Speaker 2: record of honoring that freedom of speech they're claiming to
Speaker 2: be fighting for right now.
Speaker 3: But maybe they're turning a page. I don't know.
Speaker 1: So it does sound like that TikTok is going to
Speaker 1: be appealing this on First Amendment kind of free speech grounds.
Speaker 1: According to The New York Times, the company is expected
Speaker 1: to argue that a forced sale of TikTok could violate
Speaker 1: its users free speech rights because a new owner could
Speaker 1: potentially change the apps content policies and reshape what users
Speaker 1: are able to freely share and communicate about on the platform.
Speaker 1: TikTok actually already has some precedent for fighting bans in
Speaker 1: the courts using exactly this logic, and the platform has
Speaker 1: actually already won similar First Amendment battles in the courts
Speaker 1: back when Trump was president. He tried to force a
Speaker 1: sale or a ban of the app in twenty twenty,
Speaker 1: but federal judges blocked that effort because it would have
Speaker 1: had the effect of shutting down, quote, a platform for
Speaker 1: expressive activity. We talked about this on the show a
Speaker 1: while back, but y'all might recall that Montana tried to
Speaker 1: ban TikTok in the state last year because of the
Speaker 1: app's Chinese ownership, but a different federal judge ruled against
Speaker 1: that state law for similar reasons. So far, there's actually
Speaker 1: only been one state level TikTok ban that survived a
Speaker 1: court challenge. It was super narrow. It only applied to
Speaker 1: state employees in Texas, where the governor announced a ban
Speaker 1: of the app on state government devices and networks in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two because of the Chinese ownership and related
Speaker 1: data concerns. Professors at public universities challenged that ban in
Speaker 1: the court, saying that it actually blocked them from being
Speaker 1: able to do research into the app, which actually, to
Speaker 1: me makes a lot of sense. A federal judge upheld
Speaker 1: the state ban in December, finding that it was reasonable
Speaker 1: restriction in light of Texas's concerns and that narrow scope
Speaker 1: only impacting state employees. So that was the only time
Speaker 1: that one of these bands was actually upheld in the court.
Speaker 1: So there is like a strong track record for TikTok
Speaker 1: being able to successfully fight these bands in the courts. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I remember the Montana when we talked about
Speaker 2: the Montana ban that did not work, And part of
Speaker 2: the reason it didn't work is like it is like surprise, surprise,
Speaker 2: It's hard to like ban an app that people already
Speaker 2: have on their phones or you can then go to
Speaker 2: another state or have a VPN or whatever to download.
Speaker 2: It's really interesting because the Texas legislation is the only
Speaker 2: one that I'm like, Okay, it is still ridiculous, but
Speaker 2: I get where they're coming from with that, Like Okay, yeah, sure,
Speaker 2: if it's a the issue is like we're worried about
Speaker 2: the Chinese government spying on the US, Like yeah, okay,
Speaker 2: if it's if it's government employees, like that I think
Speaker 2: is more or less reasonable. Again, I still don't agree
Speaker 2: with it because I think it is not coming from
Speaker 2: any a, it's not coming from a reality, and then
Speaker 2: b it's it is still I think, in my opinion
Speaker 2: of freedom of speech infringement.
Speaker 3: But the fact that like I feel like and maybe
Speaker 3: this is.
Speaker 2: Me having like a like a rosy view of like
Speaker 2: the pre Trump administration sort of conversation around this, but
Speaker 2: I feel like that is kind of would be the
Speaker 2: most extreme legislation you would see around this for a
Speaker 2: really long time, Like that would kind of be the
Speaker 2: what would be like the more conservative viewpoint for a while.
Speaker 2: And now it's just gone so far that it's like, no,
Speaker 2: we're just going to completely ban this app.
Speaker 1: Yeah. That's actually what made me initially pretty convinced that
Speaker 1: we would see a federal TikTok ban in our in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four was because how many different states we're
Speaker 1: banning TikTok from like government or public like public university devices.
Speaker 1: I almost like, oh, this is happening pretty swiftly. That
Speaker 1: seems to be like the like the the there seems
Speaker 1: to be a pretty quick vibe shift around this happening.
Speaker 1: That's what kind of initially made me think like, oh,
Speaker 1: I think this might this might actually be something that
Speaker 1: we see.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think and I think again, Like like I said,
Speaker 2: I'm just just because I don't think that it's it's
Speaker 2: a reasonable legislation, because yeah, then that the element is
Speaker 2: when you're just saying government, you know, employees or property
Speaker 2: or whatever, that does also include yeah, like public universities
Speaker 2: and a lot of things that aren't necessarily like the
Speaker 2: government government.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, this.
Speaker 2: Is it has been a weird road to get here
Speaker 2: and here we are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think it gets even weirder when you
Speaker 1: ask the question of like, okay, so the government will
Speaker 1: be forcing a sale to a different owner that is
Speaker 1: not based in China, is there a buyer? Like who
Speaker 1: would buy it? And the answer to that is like
Speaker 1: not clear. TikTok has a pretty hefty price tag, so
Speaker 1: it's like not clear who could even afford it? You know.
Speaker 1: My initial thought was like oh, elon musk. I feel
Speaker 1: like these guys don't really have money, like they say,
Speaker 1: like either think you're a billionaire, but all your money
Speaker 1: is tied up in like lawsuits and shit.
Speaker 2: Because my immediate reaction was also that too, where I
Speaker 2: was like, oh, no, it's.
Speaker 3: Gonna happen again, and I was like.
Speaker 2: Wait, he's still paying off his bills for Twitter, Like no, no,
Speaker 2: we're good. I think they should just we should like
Speaker 2: like they should just keep like bringing the price dout,
Speaker 2: like you know, supply and demand that whole thing. I
Speaker 2: think I think we can get a a There are
Speaker 2: no girls on the internet controlled TikTok by the end
Speaker 2: of the year. If, oh my god, to keep bringing
Speaker 2: the price down, that's my proposal. Bridgeon.
Speaker 3: I think we should purchase TikTok listeners.
Speaker 1: Let's pull our money.
Speaker 3: Actually, I mean it's let's start to go fund me.
Speaker 3: Let's go It's funny.
Speaker 1: You say this. Just yesterday, one of my favorite disinformation reporters,
Speaker 1: formerly of NBC, Ben Collins, announced that him and his buddies,
Speaker 1: this is going to sound like a joke, but it's not.
Speaker 1: They pulled their money and they bought the onion. So
Speaker 1: that just happened something familar. Yes, I'm I'm I hand
Speaker 1: to God. Look it up. Ben Collins formally NBC disinformation reporter.
Speaker 1: They was announced yesterday morning, like oh Geomdia sold the onion.
Speaker 1: It's not clear to who they sold it to. And
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I've never heard of this, this
Speaker 1: media conglamorate or like this investor group. Wonder who that is.
Speaker 1: Later that evening, Ben Collins was like, yeah, it was
Speaker 1: me and my friends. We got together and pulled their money.
Speaker 1: So now I'm the CEO of the Onion. We're bringing
Speaker 1: it back, we're giving we're rehiring everybody, We're allowing the
Speaker 1: stack to control it to in everybody. So that was
Speaker 1: like like a rare piece of like in my book
Speaker 1: good Media. He was like good, good people pulling pull
Speaker 1: pulling their money and actually buying a cool thing, like
Speaker 1: it could happen. It could happen.
Speaker 2: For a second, I thought you met like just like
Speaker 2: he was doing disinformation, Like.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, because no, can you imagine that you're a
Speaker 1: if you're like a bad actor who spreads disinformation and
Speaker 1: you buy a well known satire site, like the possibilities
Speaker 1: are endless.
Speaker 3: That's how we got x so.
Speaker 2: It's so drunk, like literally it was because of like
Speaker 2: the Bablon be getting found or whatever.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, Yeah no, that's wow.
Speaker 1: So yeah, we could tangoty.
Speaker 2: We could own TikTok uh it was on subscribers. You
Speaker 2: guys get a share of the I watched succession. I
Speaker 2: know how this stuff works. Yeah, we we could do it.
Speaker 2: You know, we're we're listen.
Speaker 1: If Elon Musk could do it, Joey, you and I
Speaker 1: could certainly do it.
Speaker 2: We could run. We could run TikTok. I think we
Speaker 2: do really good. We would definitely do better than Elon Musk.
Speaker 1: Oh, I have no doubt, no doubt. So probably not
Speaker 1: Elon Musk buying TikTok. A big American tech company like
Speaker 1: Meta or Google. They might have the money to afford
Speaker 1: the like hefty price tag, but they probably would not
Speaker 1: be able to purchase it because of anti trust concerns.
Speaker 1: Right now, Meta is currently fighting a Federal Trade Commission
Speaker 1: lawsuit that alleges that it's purchased of WhatsApp and Instagram
Speaker 1: violated US anti trust law. So the FTC is like
Speaker 1: actively seeking to break that company up. So I don't
Speaker 1: think that Zuckerberg and Meta are going to like pylon
Speaker 1: there right now. Back in twenty twenty, there had been
Speaker 1: some lofty talks of maybe Microsoft with some involvement from
Speaker 1: the retailer Walmart, partnering to buy TikTok. This is back
Speaker 1: when Donald Trump was pushing for a sale. But it
Speaker 1: sounds like those conversations like didn't really go anywhere. It
Speaker 1: could be a private equity firm or a group of investors.
Speaker 1: A former Trump administration Treasury secretary, Stephen Minuchein said that
Speaker 1: he wanted to put a group of investors together to
Speaker 1: buy it. Like what a nightmare that would be, Like
Speaker 1: a Trumper owning TikTok, Elon Musk owning Twitter, Zuckerberg owning
Speaker 1: face like like are like are oh, I don't even
Speaker 1: want to think about that. That would be guys.
Speaker 3: Tumblr's still out there.
Speaker 1: Yeah you can buy They're like nobody used like like
Speaker 1: I want someone to like buy one, like buy Zanga
Speaker 1: bring that back right, like like like like zig instead
Speaker 1: of yeah big instead of zagging. Well, everybody's talking about
Speaker 1: these big platforms. Who's buy who's buying up like the
Speaker 1: smaller platforms to bring those back? Remember Bisco that Like
Speaker 1: I remember that was one of the first like aesthetics
Speaker 1: that was ever on my radar, like the Visco lasthetics.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, all right, p Visco girl, Visco girl, What
Speaker 2: happened to Visco?
Speaker 3: That's a yeah. She had her moment, she.
Speaker 1: Had her time. So the entire thing is just very
Speaker 1: messy and very complicated, especially thinking through what it would
Speaker 1: actually look like logistically for TikTok to divest from byte Dance.
Speaker 1: There was just a recent report in the Financial Times
Speaker 1: that spoke to two dozen current and former employees that
Speaker 1: said that TikTok has only become more deeply interwoven with
Speaker 1: byte Dance as tensions over the apps ownership have escalated.
Speaker 1: The legislation that biden sign prohibits any connection between TikTok
Speaker 1: and byte Dance after a sale. Yet TikTok employees use
Speaker 1: fyt dance software in their communications, and the company's employees
Speaker 1: are global, with executives in Singapore, Dublin, Los Angeles, Mountain View, California,
Speaker 1: and elsewhere. So it's unclear if byte Dance would actually
Speaker 1: even consider selling TikTok's entire global footprint or just its
Speaker 1: US based operations, where it has about seven thousand employees.
Speaker 1: Like what it would actually logistically look like for byte
Speaker 1: Dance to just sort of tether its US based operations
Speaker 1: for TikTok. It's like unclear. It seems like it would
Speaker 1: be pretty complicated, and because a big source of concern
Speaker 1: is specifically TikTok's algorithm that controls and dictates what American
Speaker 1: audiences see, there was some talk of TikTok maybe trying
Speaker 1: to move forward in the US with a version of
Speaker 1: TikTok that is not controlled by an algorithm to see
Speaker 1: if that changes things, but that would also be pretty complicated.
Speaker 1: The apps recommendation algorithm, which figures out what users like
Speaker 1: and serves up content, is really a key part of TikTok.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like what makes TikTok TikTok. But Chinese
Speaker 1: engineers work on that algorithm, which byte Dance owns, so
Speaker 1: untethering all of that to move forward in the US
Speaker 1: might be kind of tricky. I also read yesterday that
Speaker 1: byte Dance said that they would actually prefer to shut
Speaker 1: TikTok down in the US rather than sell it if
Speaker 1: the Chinese company exhausts all legal options to fight legislation
Speaker 1: to ban the platform, So they would just be like, oh,
Speaker 1: we would rather just like not operate in the US,
Speaker 1: shut it down there and keep going. And honestly, like
Speaker 1: you might be thinking like, oh, that would be a
Speaker 1: bad financial move, but I believe that that's only twenty
Speaker 1: five percent of their revenue. Like, I don't think that
Speaker 1: TikTok is a huge part of the byteedance entire portfolio.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're also I mean not to diminish the
Speaker 2: like buying power of the US and how like important
Speaker 2: this is on a kind of economic scale, but also
Speaker 2: like there's there are many other countries out there that
Speaker 2: probably would continue to use TikTok, and I.
Speaker 3: Don't I don't know, I feel like they're gonna be fine.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel exactly the same way. And you know,
Speaker 1: something that you were saying earlier is that, you know,
Speaker 1: Mark Warner in his statement was like, oh, well this
Speaker 1: is don't I don't want people to cynically think we're
Speaker 1: just like in the bag for big tech, but this
Speaker 1: is a big win for American big tech companies. I
Speaker 1: bristle at the framing of this as like a business
Speaker 1: story when it's so much more. But it does need
Speaker 1: to be said that Facebook has been trying to destroy
Speaker 1: TikTok for kind of a while. Folks might recall that
Speaker 1: Facebook reportedly tried to buy TikTok's predecessor, the lip syncing
Speaker 1: app Musically, back in twenty sixteen, but byt dance Is
Speaker 1: ended up acquiring it instead and that became TikTok. So
Speaker 1: they tried to buy it didn't work. When that didn't work,
Speaker 1: Facebook did that thing that tech companies do, which is like,
Speaker 1: I will create a similar but less good version of
Speaker 1: my competitor. So in twenty twenty, Facebook launches Reels, which
Speaker 1: was which is you know, was like that short form
Speaker 1: video app for a while. It was essentially just like
Speaker 1: identicals of TikTok, only the content that you would see
Speaker 1: there was like a couple of weeks old. Like my
Speaker 1: friends who didn't have TikTok, they'd always be like, oh
Speaker 1: look at this real I saw, and it will be like
Speaker 1: the thing that the thing that was like hot on
Speaker 1: TikTok like a week ago. You know what I mean, right, Yeah?
Speaker 2: I and I love like a group channel Instagram, a
Speaker 2: couple of my friends that are all lovely and this
Speaker 2: is not a dig at them that a liberal often
Speaker 2: send videos and I'm like, I saw that a month ago.
Speaker 3: But thank you for sharing it again.
Speaker 1: Joey thinks your reels are whack.
Speaker 2: I think I'm sorry, I'm calling you behind the times
Speaker 2: or whatever, But nobody responds to my TikTok dms, so
Speaker 2: that's what you got.
Speaker 1: So reels has grown pretty steadily thanks to its aggressive
Speaker 1: integration with Instagram. Like when you scroll Instagram, you're basically
Speaker 1: just like getting sort ofd real. So they definitely have
Speaker 1: done some trickery there to like force us all to
Speaker 1: consume reels whether we want to or not, whether it's
Speaker 1: against our will or not. TikTok has maintained its hold
Speaker 1: on younger users while also making inroads with adults. For
Speaker 1: a long time, people talked about TikTok as like, oh,
Speaker 1: the dancing app for kids. That was never even really
Speaker 1: true even back then. But like it is certainly not
Speaker 1: true now. The majority of people on TikTok it's young people,
Speaker 1: and it's like people in their thirties, and so it's
Speaker 1: this idea that it's just an app that's popular with kids.
Speaker 1: Is this not true?
Speaker 2: Also, again, I'm gen Z and I'm in my twenties. Like,
Speaker 2: there plenty of people that are gen z that are
Speaker 2: like young adults now, yeah, also use TikTok.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. So we did a podcast episode about this with
Speaker 1: TikTok researcher Abby Richards. But basically Facebook's big thing here
Speaker 1: was really successfully demonizing TikTok. Mark Zuckerberg talked about TikTok
Speaker 1: in a speech he made at Georgetown University in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 1: He said, while our services like What'sapp are used by
Speaker 1: protesters and activists everywhere due to strong encryption and privacy
Speaker 1: protections on TikTok, the Chinese app growing quickly around the world,
Speaker 1: mentions of these protests are censored even in the US.
Speaker 1: Is that the internet we want? Which? First of all,
Speaker 1: if you are a protester, you're probably using Signal And
Speaker 1: this is me like again, I'm not being paid by Signal.
Speaker 1: If you're protester or activists, you signal, don't use What's App.
Speaker 2: I don't know anybody that is like like a like
Speaker 2: out like an activist, like really really out there activists
Speaker 2: like that uses WhatsApp to talk about like organizing.
Speaker 3: Also yeah, like wow, uh, famous famous.
Speaker 2: Supporter of protesters and activists everywhere, Mark Zuckerberg.
Speaker 1: Yes, friend, to the activist, friend to the protester, Mark Zuckerberg,
Speaker 1: freedom of speech advocate, I what that is?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's ridiculous.
Speaker 1: And of course it's not like a platform like Facebook
Speaker 1: or threads whatever suppressed content about politics or protests or
Speaker 1: social movements like they would never like what, they would.
Speaker 3: Never do that.
Speaker 2: There definitely was not a graphic going around Instagram that
Speaker 2: I reposted. A lot of my friends were posted about
Speaker 2: how to go into your settings and turn off the
Speaker 2: automatic thing that like limited political quote unquote political content
Speaker 2: on everybody you know, for you page or whatever it's
Speaker 2: called on on Instagram, their Instagram stories or whatever. That
Speaker 2: just coincidentally is happening now and absolutely has nothing to
Speaker 2: do with anything happening.
Speaker 3: In real life in college campuses right now.
Speaker 2: And you know, these protesters that Mark Zuckerberg is like
Speaker 2: best friends with, they definitely definitely this has nothing to
Speaker 2: do with that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, So you know, we talked about this on
Speaker 1: the show before that. The Washington Post in twenty twenty
Speaker 1: two reported that Facebook had been paying this major Republican
Speaker 1: consulting firm called Targeted Victory to push local stories and
Speaker 1: op eds that really painted TikTok as this danger to
Speaker 1: society and a danger to young people. Specifically, they talked
Speaker 1: about like all of these dangerous viral TikTok trends, many
Speaker 1: of which happened to actually have started or been spread
Speaker 1: on Facebook. So it was just this this tactic to
Speaker 1: be like, oh, TikTok is so dangerous, when the things
Speaker 1: that they were calling out Facebook either also spread or
Speaker 1: were the originators of a lot of these narratives really
Speaker 1: caught on with lawmakers, who then raised them in congressional hearings.
Speaker 1: There was also this piece in Politico about how TikTok
Speaker 1: kind of misplayed the Washington lobbyist game, counting on their
Speaker 1: large number of users to prevent Congress from actually taking action,
Speaker 1: while not meaningfully responding to these national security concerns that
Speaker 1: lawmakers were bringing up until it was kind of too late.
Speaker 1: I do think that TikTok, because so many people use
Speaker 1: it and because people feel strongly about it, I think
Speaker 1: that they really relied on that, like, oh, that alone
Speaker 1: is going to be enough to defend us from these
Speaker 1: claims and to keep us strong footing in the United States.
Speaker 1: I think they perhaps misplayed their hand there.
Speaker 4: More After a quick break, let's get right back into it.
Speaker 1: So I want to talk about something that you've brought up,
Speaker 1: which is like what I actually think is going on here.
Speaker 1: So we've talked a ton on the podcast about how
Speaker 1: I think that lawmakers like want to look tough on
Speaker 1: big tech while also remaining very cozy financially with American
Speaker 1: big tech companies. I also think that they want to
Speaker 1: look tough on China's so this is sort of like
Speaker 1: a two birds, one stone kind of thing. But I
Speaker 1: also think that increasingly this is really about young people
Speaker 1: and support for Palestine. So the Washington Post has a
Speaker 1: really interesting piece that will put in the show notes,
Speaker 1: basically breaking this down. They write, when congressional Republicans this
Speaker 1: month repeated their long running calls for a nationwide ban
Speaker 1: on TikTok, they highlighted a data point that they said
Speaker 1: was proof of the apps sinister underpinnings. The number of
Speaker 1: TikTok videos with hashtag free Palestine is dramatically higher than
Speaker 1: those with hashtag stand with Israel. The gap, they said,
Speaker 1: offered evidence that the app, owned by Chinese tech giant Fyteedance,
Speaker 1: was being used to boost propaganda and brainwash American viewers. So,
Speaker 1: like I think that's really kind of a big piece
Speaker 1: of this why we are seeing this anti TikTok legislation
Speaker 1: being bolstered, particularly right now. But as that Washington Post
Speaker 1: piece points out, Facebook and Instagram, TikTok's US based rivals
Speaker 1: show a remarkably similar gap. On Facebook, the free Palestine
Speaker 1: hashtag is found on more than eleven million posts, thirty
Speaker 1: nine times more than those with hashtag stand with Israel.
Speaker 1: On Instagram, the pro Palestinian hashtag is found on six
Speaker 1: million posts, twenty six times more than the pro Israel hashtag.
Speaker 1: So I think that what's going on here is that
Speaker 1: I think lawmakers are seeing people being supportive of Palestine,
Speaker 1: particularly young people, and they're like, what explains this. It
Speaker 1: has to be TikTok. It has to be foreign medaling
Speaker 1: or manipulation. It has to be like the Chinese government
Speaker 1: and sowing chaos and confusion and manipulation with our youth.
Speaker 1: And I really think that is a big part of
Speaker 1: why we are seeing these renewed efforts.
Speaker 3: To ban the app exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think talking about this too, and this is
Speaker 2: kind of this has been an ongoing conversation, is that
Speaker 2: they're there have like the the political establishment and kind
Speaker 2: of like the powers that be for a while have
Speaker 2: been very shocked by this fact that quote unquote all
Speaker 2: of a sudden, I'm not I don't think that's actually
Speaker 2: the case, but like, all of a sudden, all of
Speaker 2: these young people are being a little bit more skeptical
Speaker 2: about the kind of like established narrative of what is
Speaker 2: happening in Palestine and what's happening in Gaza, and I think,
Speaker 2: you know, I think a lot of politicians and a
Speaker 2: lot of these officials are have been sort of surprised
Speaker 2: and taken aback by the protests. Again, I don't think
Speaker 2: they should be, because I think, like a if you
Speaker 2: look at history, there is a like a lot of people,
Speaker 2: especially with the protests happening right now, have brought up
Speaker 2: like Kent State and brought up a lot of the
Speaker 2: Vietnam protests and sort of the similarities. It's like, there
Speaker 2: isn't it's not like there isn't a president for this.
Speaker 2: And then also like from their perspective, it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: it's that these apps that are doing propaganda, but it's
Speaker 2: like no, a lot of what is actually happening is
Speaker 2: just that there are videos of what's happening on the
Speaker 2: ground and god so that are going around social media.
Speaker 2: There are you know, families that are trapped, There are
Speaker 2: people that are on the ground there, There are reporters
Speaker 2: that are on the ground there that are able to
Speaker 2: get that information to a wider audience because of social
Speaker 2: media and are able to you know, there are other
Speaker 2: kind of options other than just sort of these legacy
Speaker 2: media companies that are providing information about what's happening, and
Speaker 2: that is making a lot of people question the sort
Speaker 2: of narrative that they've been told about the situation. That
Speaker 2: is making a lot of people want to look more
Speaker 2: into these and I think for a lot of people, like.
Speaker 3: The patterns are sort of clicking.
Speaker 2: It is sort of like making sense that like hey,
Speaker 2: you know, this isn't this isn't like a new thing.
Speaker 2: This is like you know, I don't know, I was
Speaker 2: growing up in sort of like the aftermath of the
Speaker 2: like Iraq and Afghanistan wars, and like it's interesting, like
Speaker 2: people keep pointing to Vietnam, but like that was really
Speaker 2: not that long ago, Like you know, the the Iraq
Speaker 2: War going into the Iraq War over a like complete
Speaker 2: live was not that long ago.
Speaker 3: Like people remember that. People are responding to that.
Speaker 2: Young people remember that because like again, like myself, a
Speaker 2: lot of us like grew up in the.
Speaker 3: Aftermath of that. I will say, I think a lot
Speaker 3: of this this.
Speaker 2: Argument drives me insane, Like I'm not surprised by it,
Speaker 2: because I do think it is like the easiest route
Speaker 2: for the a lot of these politicians to go is
Speaker 2: just the like, oh, it's just it's the kids that
Speaker 2: are wrong or they they don't they're just you know, brainwashed.
Speaker 2: There's no way that these you people that are studying
Speaker 2: at universities and are paying attention to what's happening in
Speaker 2: the news and are putting together, you know, the puzzle
Speaker 2: pieces of like hey, what we're seeing isn't new. A
Speaker 2: lot of this has happened before, and has happened repeatedly
Speaker 2: in different contexts. Like there's kind of this idea that like, oh,
Speaker 2: they don't understand anything, they just don't get it.
Speaker 3: They must be being brainwashed.
Speaker 2: That's the only explanation, because if there's any like any
Speaker 2: other explanation would force me to acknowledge the fact that like, yeah,
Speaker 2: a lot of this is very fucked up, but a
Speaker 2: lot of this is like, you know, like it's easier
Speaker 2: to kind of be patronizing to people than it is
Speaker 2: to give them credit for how smart and thoughtful people
Speaker 2: actually can be. And the fact that you know, what
Speaker 2: is happening right now is very very clearly wrong and
Speaker 2: fucked up and people are not happy about it. And
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, it's easier to say say like, oh,
Speaker 2: well there's being watch, let's stick with the status quote
Speaker 2: than it is to actually want to make any change.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think like that, like that's why that
Speaker 1: statement from Mark Horner hit me so weird, because it's like, ultimately,
Speaker 1: I think that you're exactly right. These these arguments to me,
Speaker 1: sound very limiting to young people. They sound very condescending
Speaker 1: to young people. It makes it seem like young people
Speaker 1: are not smart enough or with it enough to look
Speaker 1: around at what's going on and make an assessment when
Speaker 1: they absolutely are. It just feels very callous to me.
Speaker 1: And I think like, given that we're in an election
Speaker 1: year and we're hearing lots of elected officials and politicians
Speaker 1: who want your vote, like signaling like, oh yeah, we
Speaker 1: want the youth vote, it's like they're saying, we want
Speaker 1: y'all's vote, but we don't think you're smart enough to
Speaker 1: understand what's going on in the world.
Speaker 3: And we're also not going to listen.
Speaker 2: That's exactly like I mean, I a lot of people
Speaker 2: have pointed out are like quoting Fras East Sire is
Speaker 2: the bare minimum And what the Biden administration just finally
Speaker 2: like made a statement kind of calling for a ceasefire
Speaker 2: like a couple of weeks ago, right, Like it's I
Speaker 2: think like this is they want they talk a lot
Speaker 2: to talk about how important the youth vot is or
Speaker 2: how important like marginalized groups are or whatever to this election,
Speaker 2: and then they're doing nothing to actually address what people
Speaker 2: are asking for and what people are and like, yeah, no,
Speaker 2: like I'm sorry if you are actively suppressing the freedom
Speaker 2: of speech of the group that you are trying to
Speaker 2: get to vote for you, and then you're like to
Speaker 2: the point where you are sending like the cops to
Speaker 2: go mass arrest people for peacefully protesting, like like either
Speaker 2: you're just stupid and short sighted or like you want
Speaker 2: to lose, Like I don't know what to tell you
Speaker 2: at that point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And something else that you said is that this
Speaker 1: idea that oh well, certainly this is coming from manipulation
Speaker 1: via TikTok, Like this is young people are feeling this
Speaker 1: way all of a sudden, and that's just not true.
Speaker 1: Young Americans have consistently shown support for Palestinians in Pew
Speaker 1: Research surveys, including in a poll in twenty fourteen, four
Speaker 1: years before TikTok ever launched in the United States. And
Speaker 1: so this idea that like, oh, it's just TikTok manipulating
Speaker 1: young people with their algorithm, how do you have account
Speaker 1: for the fact that younger people have consistently shown support
Speaker 1: for Palestinians even before TikTok was ever a thing.
Speaker 3: Here exactly exactly.
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't like I I will say I
Speaker 2: supposely as somebody who was was in college before TikTok
Speaker 2: really took off, but like like kind of kind of
Speaker 2: like literally like right before that time, like this was
Speaker 2: it wasn't like this again. It wasn't like this appeared
Speaker 2: own of nowhere. These were conversations that were happening. These
Speaker 2: were like there were the efforts to for the camp,
Speaker 2: the college that I went to, there were a lot
Speaker 2: of major efforts to get them to divest from, you know,
Speaker 2: fossil deal companies and also like a lot of these
Speaker 2: companies that were you know, making weapons that were like
Speaker 2: you know, actively do it.
Speaker 3: The companies that are that are.
Speaker 2: Doing this stuff that is now being you know broad
Speaker 2: like now I think has reached a wider audience like that.
Speaker 2: It's again, it's it's not like it came out of nowhere.
Speaker 2: And I think anybody that is like paid attention to
Speaker 2: the news or to current events or to like like
Speaker 2: contemporary like politics or like global politics could tell you
Speaker 2: that and could tell you that none of this is
Speaker 2: like new and none of this is just like appearing
Speaker 2: out of nowhere. But you know, it's a very convenient
Speaker 2: narrative for the people that want to keep up the
Speaker 2: status quo that this is just popped out of nowhere
Speaker 2: and it's TikTok's fault, clearly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think it really. I mean I I
Speaker 1: was there for a lot of that. I got my
Speaker 1: start as somebody who was like a leftist with campus
Speaker 1: organizing like that was like like I was in high school,
Speaker 1: when I was in I think tenth grade when nine
Speaker 1: to eleven happened, and anti war organizing was just like that,
Speaker 1: like that's when that became a thing for me, and
Speaker 1: so it you know, I was in high school when
Speaker 1: all that was popping off, and I was just started
Speaker 1: like it was like my my up sort of political
Speaker 1: or like radical consciousness awakening, and I was like the
Speaker 1: exact right age for it. I will not sit here
Speaker 1: and tell you that I had the perfect practice that
Speaker 1: everything I ever did was like well, got out smart,
Speaker 1: like logical blah blah blah. I mean I was nineteen
Speaker 1: and I was in nineteen.
Speaker 3: You weren't like a perfect political like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was nineteen and I was high all the time.
Speaker 1: And I guess I say that to say, like so
Speaker 1: for me, it was anti war organizing. It was School
Speaker 1: of the America's watch organizing, like like yes, that was
Speaker 1: a little bit of a yeah, that was that was
Speaker 1: a big part of what a what an institution.
Speaker 2: I'm I am morbidly fascinated by the School of the
Speaker 2: Americas and all the very very terrible.
Speaker 1: Somebody needs to do a podcast thought it because it
Speaker 1: is wild.
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, yeah, there's I think they did a
Speaker 2: there was a be Hide the Bastards episode about about
Speaker 2: School of the America's in particular. That was that was
Speaker 2: one of the things that gotta be like on some
Speaker 2: research spiral about it, but.
Speaker 1: Nice plug for our our podcast Cousins over that cool zone.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I say this to say that it's hard
Speaker 1: for me to look at what's happening right now on
Speaker 1: college campuses and also look at the conversation happening around
Speaker 1: TikTok and not be really concerned. Like I, young people
Speaker 1: especially need to be able to express themselves politically and
Speaker 1: to have places where they can learn about their political
Speaker 1: selves and like express that. I like, like I would
Speaker 1: not be who I am today if I did not
Speaker 1: have that space to figure it out and to figure
Speaker 1: out what that looks like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I also want to add because I think Bridget
Speaker 2: I think we've had like very soamiliar experiences with this,
Speaker 2: and I something that I know has come up and
Speaker 2: I I'm not gonna say what this group is because
Speaker 2: I don't want to give them any more attention. But
Speaker 2: there is a group that targets and dockses students that
Speaker 2: students and university faculty that do that support Palestine or
Speaker 2: support or they have a very broad definition of what
Speaker 2: being quote unquote anti Israel or in their words like
Speaker 2: anti smatic is. I like literally had a Jewish history
Speaker 2: professor who like called herself a Zionist, was a liberal
Speaker 2: Zionist and was targeted by this group. But I know
Speaker 2: this was something that this particular organization, Like I had
Speaker 2: a couple of like older people in my life that
Speaker 2: recently found out about them, just because of some like
Speaker 2: you know, obviously they've been doing a lot of toxic lately.
Speaker 2: But I remember having a conversation with my dad actually
Speaker 2: about this, and he was like so shocked that this
Speaker 2: was happening, and he was like, this is awful, Like
Speaker 2: I can't believe that, like they're targeting students, And I
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, no, Like I have a lot of
Speaker 2: friends that were docksed by them when we were like nineteen,
Speaker 2: like we were like we were still teenagers.
Speaker 3: Like that was and like I think, like you were saying,
Speaker 3: like I think, you.
Speaker 2: Know, obviously, I like I support the protesters. I'm standing
Speaker 2: here and I agree with the protesters. Even if you don't,
Speaker 2: you should be supporting people's like ability to use college
Speaker 2: as an experience to like explore different political ideas and
Speaker 2: realities and learn about there's always this big you know,
Speaker 2: like the right loves to throw a fit over like oh,
Speaker 2: like these like liberal campuses are in a bubble and
Speaker 2: they don't know the real world. Like no, no, no, no, Actually,
Speaker 2: the point of college a lot of times is to
Speaker 2: meet people that have different experiences than you and to
Speaker 2: like form these different and learn about these different ideas
Speaker 2: and form these different ideas. And like, we should not
Speaker 2: be at a place where simply trying to learn about.
Speaker 3: Other issues or trying to learn about different perspectives.
Speaker 2: Or whatever at Like, if that's what you're doing, we're
Speaker 2: like advocating for causes you care about.
Speaker 3: Like that should not be reason to be docked. Like
Speaker 3: before you could even.
Speaker 2: Legally drink, Like that is that that that's not something
Speaker 2: that should be happening.
Speaker 1: Yes, And like I mean, like I we have a
Speaker 1: I'm in the works on a whole episode about this.
Speaker 1: This might be an unpopular opinion, but it is how
Speaker 1: I feel having adults who might not even have a
Speaker 1: real connection to university campuses saying things like, oh, if
Speaker 1: a college freshman says xyz thing that is supportive of Palestine,
Speaker 1: we should put their name and their information on a
Speaker 1: truck and drive it around their community and make sure
Speaker 1: that nobody ever hires them for the rest of their life.
Speaker 1: Who is that helping? Like, like, I think that it's
Speaker 1: an environment that like the conversation around camp, the campus
Speaker 1: protests that are happening right now, it's it's just really
Speaker 1: scary to me. I guess I'll just put it that way.
Speaker 2: It's really scary. I think none of this is new.
Speaker 2: Is like a lot of what we're talking about. I
Speaker 2: think that the advent of social media and the fact
Speaker 2: that like they're obviously like as we're talking about, there
Speaker 2: are a lot of positives and we're you know, having
Speaker 2: this conversation to say that to the TikTok ban is
Speaker 2: not going to be a good solution to all of
Speaker 2: what's happening. Like, there are a lot of positive social media,
Speaker 2: but I do think there is also a lot of
Speaker 2: negatives in the fact that because it is so much
Speaker 2: more visible, the reaction is going to be so much
Speaker 2: stronger and there is going to be and yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: and again I one hundred percent agree with you, and like,
Speaker 2: like nobody a what these students are advocating for is
Speaker 2: they're advocating for peace. They're advocating for like the bare minimum,
Speaker 2: like stop the fucking violence. Like there's so many, so
Speaker 2: many people who die. This is insane. And but regardless
Speaker 2: of what is happening, regardless of what they're fucking protesting,
Speaker 2: regardless of what is being spoken about, nobody should be yeah,
Speaker 2: nobody should be docs.
Speaker 3: Nobody should have.
Speaker 2: Their life potentially ruined or like attempted to be ruined
Speaker 2: because of something they said when they were nineteen or
Speaker 2: twenty or whatever.
Speaker 1: Exactly and folding it into the TikTok conversation. If young
Speaker 1: people are not able to express themselves politically on their
Speaker 1: college campuses, at college and then the digital spaces where
Speaker 1: they would do that Twitter, you can't really do that
Speaker 1: effectively right now if TikTok is banned. I just worry
Speaker 1: that we are losing both irol and digitally places where people,
Speaker 1: particularly young people are able to safely show up to
Speaker 1: express their political beliefs, understand their political beliefs, refine and
Speaker 1: sharpen their political beliefs. And that's not good. Like, I
Speaker 1: really see these two things as related. The fact that
Speaker 1: we have all of this suppression and crack down on
Speaker 1: campus protest, while also the places and spaces where you
Speaker 1: would digitally be able to show up and do that
Speaker 1: are also being undermined. It just as I can't help
Speaker 1: but see those two things that's happening together.
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of the voices that are
Speaker 1: talking about this moment in time, I think are like
Speaker 1: really leading with a lot of anxiety and sort of
Speaker 1: like I don't want to say concern trolling, but like
Speaker 1: a lot of anxiety around youth and social media, and
Speaker 1: like youth are miserable, they're supporting Palestine because they're on
Speaker 1: their phones, which are making them miserable. I just feel
Speaker 1: like we're not having good substantive conversations rising to the
Speaker 1: top about what's going on in this very particular moment
Speaker 1: in time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, actually off at that point.
Speaker 2: Not to sound conspiratorial or whatever, but I think it's interesting.
Speaker 2: There were a lot of like articles and stuff that
Speaker 2: were coming out that I do think we're very valid.
Speaker 2: I do think make a good point, but if they're
Speaker 2: about this fact. But like, and again, as somebody who
Speaker 2: is kind of like the beginning of gen Z, I
Speaker 2: lived through a lot of this, but it was like
Speaker 2: all of these young people are sort of beginning to,
Speaker 2: you know, question whether having iPhones all the time, having
Speaker 2: smartphones all the time is actually good for us or
Speaker 2: like having like growing up with this access to the
Speaker 2: Internet and social media from such a young age was
Speaker 2: a good thing, Like maybe it was actually sort of harmful.
Speaker 2: And now we're seeing this next generation go through it,
Speaker 2: and you know, there are there are a lot of
Speaker 2: articles that we're coming out about, like here's this group
Speaker 2: of like twenty something things that have decided to get
Speaker 2: like Nokia.
Speaker 1: Phones, and I've read like yeh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Like all of that, and I don't, like, I think
Speaker 2: that's great. I totally agree. And I will say, like again,
Speaker 2: as somebody who spends a lot of time online and
Speaker 2: a lot of time on the Internet, like I definitely I
Speaker 2: need to detach a lot. I see a lot of
Speaker 2: the negatives too, But at the same time, it's like
Speaker 2: I still believe, like and I mean, I get like
Speaker 2: this is a lot of the philosophy of the show
Speaker 2: is like the Internet is a thing that exists. It's
Speaker 2: the thing that it is a tool. It can be
Speaker 2: a tool for bad, awful things. It could also be
Speaker 2: a tool for organizing and activism and you know, changing
Speaker 2: the world to be a or trying to make the
Speaker 2: world a better place.
Speaker 3: Like it can be, and it also can be a
Speaker 3: place for community.
Speaker 2: It can be like I I've found a lot of
Speaker 2: community online spaces.
Speaker 3: I think, like.
Speaker 2: Just just inherently demonizing the idea like the Internet and
Speaker 2: social media and whatever part of that is what gets
Speaker 2: us to things like this, where then it's like, but
Speaker 2: then we can't even look at the fact that, no,
Speaker 2: like social media in this case, like again, if we're
Speaker 2: talking about like the protests happening for Palestine right now,
Speaker 2: social media has been a really really important tool for
Speaker 2: organizing and for getting information out there. It hasn't been
Speaker 2: the only thing that has been important. There are also
Speaker 2: like a lot of other you know, actions that need
Speaker 2: to be done and things that need to be done
Speaker 2: and whatever.
Speaker 3: But you know, like I'm not.
Speaker 2: Saying that just posting a bunch of graphics on your
Speaker 2: Instagram is like, you know, peak activism or whatever. But
Speaker 2: also it is like it has been a very important
Speaker 2: tool of getting information out there and getting and helping
Speaker 2: to organize these protests. And I think if we if
Speaker 2: we forget that, that's just gonna end up hurting all
Speaker 2: of us. And I think that's kind of the direction
Speaker 2: we're going with this legislation. That's scary, and.
Speaker 1: I think it. It just adds to this feeling of
Speaker 1: just loss of faith in democracy and institutions. And I
Speaker 1: think that, like particularly right now, that like people are
Speaker 1: feeling so checked out from democracy that I just don't
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 2: Think we need it.
Speaker 1: I don't think that people need any other reason to
Speaker 1: be even more disengaged and checked out. The spear from
Speaker 1: Under the Desk news to we've had on the show
Speaker 1: before you could think of V. They're kind of like
Speaker 1: the Walter cronkinde of TikTok. They made it really yeah,
Speaker 1: like V is everywhere. V made a really interesting point
Speaker 1: they said, the consequence is not that TikTok gets banned,
Speaker 1: it's that the American public loses faith even more in
Speaker 1: the institution of government than they already have. And I
Speaker 1: think that really for me, like sums up how I
Speaker 1: think a lot of folks are feeling. Like I've seen
Speaker 1: people say things like, oh, they'll ban TikTok before they
Speaker 1: ban guns, or just like how weird it is to
Speaker 1: be having these conversations. It's like seeing conversations where it's
Speaker 1: like how close to death does someone who was pregnant
Speaker 1: have to be before their doctor kind of bort their
Speaker 1: non viable pregnancy. It just feels wrong when we have
Speaker 1: all of these other really huge issues happening to be like,
Speaker 1: oh and then they're gonna ban TikTok, like that's what
Speaker 1: they're doing. Like I could understand how somebody watching watching
Speaker 1: this moment in time is just like that's it. I
Speaker 1: have lost what faith I had in the institution of
Speaker 1: government because of this moment, Like I understand that the
Speaker 1: way that people are responding in this moment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean, like I said before, I think
Speaker 2: for all the hand ringing the Biden administration is doing
Speaker 2: right now or the Democratic Party is doing about like
Speaker 2: oh my god, like we're losing young people or not
Speaker 2: having young people engaging, or we're losing the sort of
Speaker 2: like loyalty quote unquote of like all these marginalized groups
Speaker 2: that you know, previously would have been a big part
Speaker 2: of our.
Speaker 3: Voter base.
Speaker 2: For all the hand ringing and for all the complaining
Speaker 2: about that they're not doing anything to make to motivate
Speaker 2: people to want to support them, and they're not doing
Speaker 2: anything to like actually show that, yeah, like that we
Speaker 2: live in a functioning democracy, Like this is a like
Speaker 2: this is very clearly a sign that that is, that
Speaker 2: is not what's happening.
Speaker 3: But this is not a.
Speaker 2: This this this is an example of democracy not functioning
Speaker 2: the way that it is supposed to. And I think,
Speaker 2: like you can't be having that sort of like moral
Speaker 2: high ground or yeah, like handwringing about it if then
Speaker 2: you're not actually going to put in the work to
Speaker 2: to to make these systems work the way that you
Speaker 2: claim that they are supposed to work.
Speaker 1: Exactly, and then folding in the breakdown of these tools
Speaker 1: that have been used to allow people who are marginalized
Speaker 1: to build platforms and express themselves and build political power,
Speaker 1: you know, like if there's no TikTok and there's no
Speaker 1: real Twitter and meta is deprioritizing political and social issues
Speaker 1: kind d on their platforms, Where will we get the
Speaker 1: next Black Lives Matter? Where will we get the next
Speaker 1: meet to? How will we like build power and mobilize?
Speaker 1: Like I am a person who believes that marginalized people
Speaker 1: will always find a way, Like we'll always make a
Speaker 1: way out of no way. That is what we do.
Speaker 1: But I just don't want to get into this place
Speaker 1: where we have to keep rebuilding. We have to keep
Speaker 1: building new platforms. One platform goes poof, and so then
Speaker 1: we have to spend all of this energy and time,
Speaker 1: our resources that we know are not infinite, their finite,
Speaker 1: rebuilding and redoing this like it just after a while,
Speaker 1: it gets really tired and like people get burnt out,
Speaker 1: and I just think like, yeah, we're just in this
Speaker 1: very particular moment that I really see a lot of
Speaker 1: those a lot of those chickens coming home to roost.
Speaker 2: And this is why I think we need to revive
Speaker 2: Tumblr and we all need to go back to Tumblr
Speaker 2: and start using Tumblr again.
Speaker 3: But although that's not also not a very functional website.
Speaker 1: This is why there are no girls on the Internet.
Speaker 1: Community needs to band together and bye bye.
Speaker 3: TikTok exactly support go fund me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll send the link around for folks to donate
Speaker 1: and we'll we'll get a Google dot go. And I'm
Speaker 1: like your organizer friend who's like, as soon as the
Speaker 1: idea is floated, like I will circulate the Google dot
Speaker 1: so we'll get we'll get our content moderation policies together
Speaker 1: in that Google doc. Joey, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: being here. This was this was like when this news
Speaker 1: came down, I was like, I cannot wait to find
Speaker 1: out what joey things you're my like TikTok correspondent correspond Yeah,
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. Uh, where can folks keep
Speaker 1: off with you?
Speaker 2: You can find me on Twitter or Instagram at patnot prat.
Speaker 3: That's p A T t n O T p r
Speaker 3: A T T.
Speaker 2: I also want to give a shout out to if
Speaker 2: you like listening to there are no girls Leadernet or
Speaker 2: any other of our iHeartMedia podcast and you want to
Speaker 2: support the fantastic producer is that works super hard on
Speaker 2: those shows, you should check out the iHeart Podcast Union socials.
Speaker 2: You can find us on Twitter and hopefully by the
Speaker 2: time this episode drops, also on Instagram at iHeart Pod Union.
Speaker 2: That's yeah, iHeart Pod Union. Hopefully you can find it.
Speaker 1: You'll figure it out.
Speaker 3: Figure it out, You'll figure it out.
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna tell you guys my TikTok, but if
Speaker 2: you find it, come say hi. I don't know, it's
Speaker 2: a lot of me like talking about like whatever piece
Speaker 2: of media I've hyper fixated on for like a couple
Speaker 2: of month span, So I don't know if you want
Speaker 2: to Yeah, right now, it's been like DC comics.
Speaker 3: So if anybody is interested.
Speaker 2: You're welcome to try to find that, but I will
Speaker 2: not be telling you what my user name is.
Speaker 1: I could see you having a podcast that's just called
Speaker 1: like Joey's recent hyper fixationss Siperfixations.
Speaker 2: I I heard if you want to green light that, right,
Speaker 2: let's make it happen.
Speaker 3: I feel like that's when I, oh, yeah, and then
Speaker 3: I will that. That's kind of been my repertoire. And
Speaker 3: on Stuff Mom Never told You.
Speaker 2: Another show that I am occasionally on has usually been Hey,
Speaker 2: there's this thing that I just like, have been obsessed
Speaker 2: with lately, can I come talk about it? But I
Speaker 2: will be having a good episode coming up, coming out
Speaker 2: on Sminty or on stuff Mom Never told you soon
Speaker 2: about the Swifties and some of the the darker side
Speaker 2: of online fandom. Uh, don't have a set date for that,
Speaker 2: but I will update you guys when I do.
Speaker 1: I can out wait. You'll be here when that episode drops.
Speaker 1: You will, we'll you'll, we'll be discussing it.
Speaker 3: I have a whole like conversation about this. We didn't
Speaker 3: do like a round table.
Speaker 1: I was, yeah, like a swifty round table, A swifty
Speaker 1: round table. I feel like I like I'm not. I'm
Speaker 1: not a Swifty. I I mean, you know this about me.
Speaker 1: I've gone from like not loving Taylor Swift to being like, oh,
Speaker 1: actually I'm neutral on her, to now being like I
Speaker 1: don't know anything about her music, but like, I would
Speaker 1: like to be a Smifty and include me in your community. People.
Speaker 2: My thoughts on Taylor Swift are. I love her music.
Speaker 2: I grew up listening to her music. She has been
Speaker 2: one of my top artists on Spotify for like forever.
Speaker 2: The fandom concerns me a lot, but I do think
Speaker 2: she herself. I understand a lot of the criticism and
Speaker 2: I support I don't. I think there's a lot of
Speaker 2: her is a figure, is an interesting person. I try
Speaker 2: to keep her separate from the music. That that's my
Speaker 2: keeping the art separate from the artist. I think situation
Speaker 2: is Taylor Swift. But yeah, I don't know if then
Speaker 2: the latest thing is a bunch of Swifties are mad
Speaker 2: at me because I said that one of the lines
Speaker 2: and one for most recent songs sounded kind of dumb
Speaker 2: and I apparently don't understand how metaphors work. The consensus
Speaker 2: in the comments section, but.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's a great teaser for swifty convos to come. Joey,
Speaker 1: thank you for being here.
Speaker 3: Of course, thanks for having me, Bridget.
Speaker 1: And thanks to all of you for listening. I will
Speaker 1: see you on the Internet. If you're looking for ways
Speaker 1: to support the show, check out our mark store at
Speaker 1: tangodi dot com slash store. Got a story about an
Speaker 1: interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi,
Speaker 1: You can reach us at Hello at tangody dot com.
Speaker 1: You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tengody
Speaker 1: dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was
Speaker 1: created by Me Bridget Toad. It's a production of iHeartRadio
Speaker 1: and Unbossed Creative edited by Joey pat Jonathan Strickland is
Speaker 1: our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer.
Speaker 1: Michael Almada is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Toad.
Speaker 1: If you want to help us, row, rate and review
Speaker 1: us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check
Speaker 1: out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts.