1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:10,320 Speaker 1: It's just overwhelming. A little boy sees a road rage 2 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: killer opened fire, shooting his mommy and his siblings. I 3 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: find it really hard to believe that a mother, Megan Bigelow, 4 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: forty one years old, with our aldred children in the car, 5 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: is going to be weaving in and out in traffic 6 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: having a road rage confrontation. What happened? What happened in 7 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 1: the parking lot of the local dentist Crime Stories with 8 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. When I came out the back door to 9 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: see what was going on, I witnessed the gentleman that 10 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: had been shot multiple times up against the build right here. 11 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: He's very concerned about his daughter's whereabouts. He had been 12 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: shot multiple times. He did say there was a lady 13 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: just right in front of this building here that had 14 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 1: been shot in the head, and it looked like that 15 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 1: she was probably faced down on the concrete. He was 16 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 1: trying to tell the police to go check her. Hey 17 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: called him as a commare, and he said, I want 18 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: to go over there. My mom just got shot. Oh 19 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: my stars. A little boy witness says a road rage 20 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:32,759 Speaker 1: killer opens fire on the boy's family, killing his thirteen 21 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: year old brother, shooting his mom and sibling, Good Gravy. 22 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for 23 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: being with us. You were just hearing from our friends 24 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: at nine News in Denver with me an all star 25 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: panel to break it apart and put it back together again. 26 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: Ashley Willcott judge, trial lawyer anchor at Court TV. You 27 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: can find her at Ashley Wilcot dot com. Stephen Lampley, 28 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:09,519 Speaker 1: detective and author of Outside Your Door on Amazon. Doctor 29 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: Debbie Joffy Ellis psychologist, Adjunct professor, Columbia University. Karen Smith 30 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: joining me from the Florida jurisdiction forensics expert, founder of 31 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 1: Bear Bones Consulting. But right now, to Dave Matt Crime 32 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:29,119 Speaker 1: online dot com investigative reporter. Road rage ends in a 33 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: shooting death. Tell me what happened, Nancy. A headline here 34 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 1: actually explains what happened. You've got a mom and her 35 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: three boys going to an afternoon dental appointment. You've got 36 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: traffic on the road, and missus Bigelow is trying to 37 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: move to her right to get out of the way 38 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: for an emergency vehicle that's trying to pass. She apparently 39 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: cuts off Jeremy Webbs her a twenty three year old man, 40 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: and he then follows her, terrorizing the family as they 41 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: go down the road, enough that witnesses saw them going 42 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,639 Speaker 1: back and forth on the road. Missus bigelow, Okay, wait 43 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 1: a minute, Wait a minute, who wa wa Wait. What 44 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: I'm saying is I think she was being defensive in 45 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: trying to avoid this twenty three year old that is 46 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: terrorizing her going down the road. She was getting out 47 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: of the way of an emergency vehicle when apparently, you know, 48 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: she did maybe cut this guy off, but she wasn't 49 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: the aggressor here. She's got her three boys in the car. 50 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: They're thirteen, twelve, and seven. They're headed to a dentist appointment. 51 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: This guy getting behind her is the aggressor and is 52 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: doing enough jockeying down the road. Lord in heaven, you know, 53 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: as she will caught my husband for Pete's sake, And 54 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: I can't say I haven't ever done it myself, But 55 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: when people cut him off or they won't go at 56 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: a red light, he will sit on the horn and 57 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: he's you know, you know, I love David, but he's 58 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: a big lug and I'm always afraid he'll get out 59 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: of the car and just like kick their car or 60 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: something like, David, look around you. You don't know these people. 61 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 1: A good forty percent of them are on parole or probation. 62 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: Trust me on that. You don't know who's got a 63 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: gun in their car? Just suck it up. That means 64 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: he can't yell at people, or he can't make faces 65 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: at them, gesticulate them till gave them sit on the horn. 66 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: It means I cannot shoot a bird at anybody that 67 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: cuts me off. It just you can't do that, not anymore. 68 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 1: It just and I find it really hard. I mean, 69 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: have you ever sat in a red light and just 70 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: peeked around and thought, Wow, is that a convicted fella? 71 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: Do they have a gun in the car? Only because 72 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: of what we do for a living, right I do now? 73 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: So I have to say my sixteen year old that, 74 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: you know, he is now driving, and that's one of 75 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: the things I've had to teach him, not only the 76 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: extreme flipping someone off, but I tell him be careful, 77 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: don't look next to you and let your facial expression 78 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: indicate that you're annoyed or angry. Because it can take 79 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:27,039 Speaker 1: almost nothing to trigger people, and a lot of people 80 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: nationwide owned guns, keep guns in their car. It is 81 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 1: not worth the risk because, regrettably, someone who is going 82 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: to commit road rage does not care if your children 83 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: are in the car or not. No, they don't care. 84 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: We are talking about a twenty three year old guy, 85 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 1: Jeremy Webster, who apparently pulls his gun and start shooting 86 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: in the suburbs. Steve Lampley. Where we left off with 87 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: Dave Matt was the mom was going in and out 88 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 1: of traffic trying to get away from this guy. Yeah, 89 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: there's I mean the mother, a mother and three sons. 90 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: There children in the car. She doesn't want to stop 91 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: and then give this person an opportunity to do something 92 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: to her family, So she to do it, in my opinion, 93 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: the best way she could do to try to get 94 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 1: away from him. Back to Dave Matt, Dave does how 95 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 1: long does Jeremy Webster follow the mom, Megan Biggielow and 96 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: her children Nancy. This actually went about two and a 97 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: half to three miles from on the road while they 98 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: were headed to this dental appointment. Now, missus Bigelow, actually 99 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: she kept her head about her. Okay, she actually continued 100 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: on the road. She didn't stop and confront the guy. 101 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: She continued on her path to get to this dental 102 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: office parking lot where there were plenty of witnesses, and 103 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:57,239 Speaker 1: so as they pulled in, if you can imagine, Jeremy 104 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: Webster was right on her tail, following her her into 105 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: the parking lot. Megan Bigelow heroically was able to put 106 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: her car in a position in that parking in that 107 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: parking lot where she was able to take a picture 108 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: of the man's license plate. Okay, wait a minute, to 109 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,239 Speaker 1: do that, that would require her getting out and getting 110 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: a picture from either the front or the back of 111 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: the car. I bet that infuriated him, Dave Mack, it did, 112 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: because it's actually from that moment it led to an argument. Now, 113 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: missus Bigelow has three young sons with her, thirteen, twelve, 114 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: and seven. Okay, now she's mama bear. She's protecting her boys. 115 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: She actually confronts Jeremy Webster there in the parking lot, 116 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: and now, as you said, probably did get infuriated when 117 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: she took a picture of his license plate. That's when 118 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: he started arguing with her. Now, she had the presence 119 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 1: of mind to take the picture of the license plate. 120 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: But what happened next, right, I'm just learning something. I'm 121 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: learning that the little boy, the twelve year old boy, 122 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: that's the age of my children. John Data Lucy tells police, 123 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: Mommy took a photo of the driver's plate. She's talking 124 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 1: about the car tag on her phone before they got 125 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:21,239 Speaker 1: out of the car. And that means she's not out 126 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: walking around Jeremy Webster's car taking pictures of it. She 127 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: did that before she got out of the car. Let 128 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 1: me understand something. This is in a dentist office parking lot. 129 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: Is that correct, the Comfort Dental parking lot. Yes, and 130 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 1: there were several other businesses in this little shopping strip 131 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: mall where the dental office was. But here's the part 132 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: and what happened Nancy. When missus Bigelow pulls her vehicle 133 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: into that parking lot, Jeremy Webster pulled directly behind her 134 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: and stopped in the middle of the parking lot, blocking 135 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: her in where she can't go anywhere else. Crime Stories 136 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. I had just dropped her off and 137 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 1: we just lived right down the street on seventy ninth. 138 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:30,599 Speaker 1: There was a gentleman that was there. He had a 139 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 1: gunshot wound to his arm. Gentleman was holding it making 140 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: sure he wasn't bleeding out, he had a gunshot wound 141 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: to his chest. As a parent, he couldn't you know, 142 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: imagine what your mind goes through in today's role. You 143 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: never know where it's going to happen. Whenever somebody loses 144 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: a trigger anymore, you are hearing a witness at the 145 00:09:53,520 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: road rage shooting. That was James Cisneros. What happened? What 146 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: happened in the parking lot of the local dentist. I 147 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: just took the twins to the orthodonist and I'll let 148 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 1: them go in first. Then I part and followed. It's 149 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: unbelievable that now four people have been shot and a 150 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: little boy is dead. Joining me Ashley Willcott, Steve Lampley, 151 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:30,079 Speaker 1: Doctor Debbie Joffey Ellis, Karen Smith, and Dave Mack too. 152 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: Doctor Debbie Joffey Ellis, Psychologist, adjunct Professor, Columbia University, Doctor 153 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 1: Debbie What exactly is road rage? Psychologically speaking? Psychologically, you 154 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: could almost say it's an altered state of consciousness. The 155 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: part of the person's brain who's experiencing the rage, it's 156 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: very primal, and the person's ability at that time to 157 00:10:54,360 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: reason or to restrain themselves is non active. And so 158 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: there's a wild beast here, and one of the best 159 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: things that a person can do who might be around 160 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:12,719 Speaker 1: them is to make the best choice they can. And 161 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: by the way, at that time, they might be in 162 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: a somewhat altered state of panic and fear. Nonetheless, the 163 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: goal not to provoke, not to provoke. The rage does 164 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: not come from the car incident. It's a result of 165 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: pent up stuff, and we don't know from how many 166 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: years back. And it's also a result possibly if it's 167 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: a young person carrying out these acts of a brain 168 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: that's not fully developed, where that part of the brain 169 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: that has the ability to think things through and to 170 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: restrain themselves from taking unhealthy actions isn't fully formed. So 171 00:11:54,720 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 1: I'm not trying to justify in any way a person's 172 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: actions if their brain isn't fully formed. I'm just trying 173 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 1: to give you some facts. Probably in addition to all 174 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: of the above is an attitude and a way of 175 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:17,439 Speaker 1: thinking that fuels the fire, thinking that no one should 176 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 1: have power over me, or I can't stand it when 177 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:26,599 Speaker 1: people drive in front of me. These demanding out of perspective, 178 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: irrational demands fuel any neurological component and any pent up 179 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: stuff that is blooding through too. Karen Smith, forensics expert 180 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: joining me out of Florida, the founder of Bare Bones Consulting. Karen, 181 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:48,079 Speaker 1: how do you go about proving exactly what happened? The forensics? 182 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:54,959 Speaker 1: And here's what they've got this Jeremy person's used egglock. 183 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 1: A block is a semi automatic handgun. It automatically ejects 184 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 1: casings every time the trigger is pulled, so you know 185 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: you're looking at somebody who not only made the decision 186 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: to get a gun, then they pointed it and they 187 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 1: pulled the trigger. That is three separate incidents that he 188 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 1: chose to do, and he fired the gun repeatedly at 189 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: numerous people. So the placings of the casings somewhat tell 190 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: you the pattern that he walked or moved while he 191 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: was firing it. The casings that are left behind at 192 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: the scene can be linked to the handgun that he 193 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: used if they found that in his car or on 194 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: his person. And they can also tell from the gunshot 195 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: wounds and the positions of the people left behind to 196 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: die where they were, what position they were in, how 197 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: close the gun was or how far away it was. 198 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: So the forensics are going to tell a story. It 199 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: may not be the exact story, but with the witness 200 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: statements and everything left behind it that crime scene, there's 201 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: going to be a really good chance that everything will 202 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: come to bearing court. How does a mom and two 203 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: or three boys and an innocent bystander get shot simply 204 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: going to the dentist. Take a listen to this. Meghan 205 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: Bigelow told detectives several months after that shooting, when she 206 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: was finally interviewed by them, that she was trying to 207 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: get over into the right lane because there was emergency 208 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: vehicle coming up right behind her. She was trying to 209 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: get over. That's when she allegedly cut off Jeremy Webster. 210 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: The two exchanged words through their driver's side windows, and 211 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: then he followed her to a parking lot. The two 212 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: got out of the car, argued some more, and that's 213 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: when he allegedly opened fire. I'm sorry. The Bigelow family 214 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: was sitting in the courtroom as all of this was 215 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: being described. Four months after a deadly road rage incident 216 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: in Westminster. A judge is now trying to determine whether 217 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: there's enough evidence for the case to move to trial. 218 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: On one side of the courtroom, a grieving von Bigelow, Senor, 219 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: his wife Megan, and their sons, Von Junior and Asa, 220 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: were shot that fateful day, along with one other man. 221 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: Thirteen year old Von Junior did not survive. On the 222 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: other side of the courtroom, Jeremy Webster, the man police 223 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: say pulled the trigger. Responding officers and Westminster detectives described 224 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: what unfolded that day. One of the first officers on 225 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: the scene explained the chaos of June fourteenth, going into 226 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: graphic detail about the injuries suffered by each of the 227 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: four victims. You're hearing our friends at ABC din verse seven. 228 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: That was making Lopez listen to this. Von Signor silently 229 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: sobbd as officers described seven year old ASA's injuries. The 230 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: officer thought Asa was dead when he first approached him, 231 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: curled up in a fetal position, not far from his 232 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: mother and brother. Von Signor broke down once more when 233 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: a witness statement described the death of his older son. 234 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: The witness calling Von Junior's death a quote execution, saying 235 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: Webster stood over the boy as he was kneeling on 236 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: the ground and shot him. We also learned about what 237 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: happened immediately after that shooting. According to police, Jeremy webs 238 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: Or got back in his car, drove to home depot 239 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: to buy a song, and went back to remodeling a 240 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: house before driving home. He was caught several hours later 241 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: in Castlerock. Meanwhile, the defense brought up Webster's mental history, 242 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: saying he's been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, and this afternoon 243 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: all of us were kicked out of the courtroom. Today 244 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: it was sealed as a judge went ahead and watched 245 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: the entire interrogation video for Jeremy Webster. It's more than 246 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: three hours long, and in it, Jeremy Webster allegedly confesses 247 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: to that shooting. Now, I just found out a couple 248 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: of minutes ago that this court has gone into recess. 249 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: The judge is going to finish watching that video, and 250 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: that's when we could find out whether or not there's 251 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: enough evidence for this to actually move to trial. Good grief. 252 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: If they've got a confession and eyewitnesses. I don't know 253 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: what more they would need to take this case to trial. 254 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: As she willcot. I'm just imagining the mom. She's trying 255 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: to usher the boys toward the aist to get inside, 256 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: to get them safe, when this guy comes out and 257 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 1: starts shooting. She did have words with Jeremy Webster. I 258 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: don't think it even took her saying anything to him 259 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: to push him over the edge. I think he was 260 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 1: a loaded gun, a fire waiting to explode. What do 261 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:26,439 Speaker 1: you make of it? I would agree with you, and 262 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: I think here's the problem. Anytime you have someone who's 263 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: out volatile, it really doesn't matter at that point, in 264 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: my opinion, what you say or do. They are going 265 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: to do what they are going to do. They've already 266 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 1: engaged in their rage, which is going to cause them 267 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: to do something like shoot like he did in this case. 268 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: Having said that, I'm still going to say this, it 269 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 1: is not her fault. It is not her fault. I 270 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,199 Speaker 1: do not believe she could have prevented this. But it 271 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 1: is important for people to keep in mind again, do 272 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 1: everything you can not to engage because people are crazy 273 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: out there. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. The alleged gunman 274 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: told detectives that he feels like someone's always out to 275 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: get him and that is why he was carrying guns 276 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,400 Speaker 1: a day of the shooting. Yeah, and the suspect said 277 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: that in a three hour interrogation after his arrest. A 278 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: judge here in Adams County watched that interrogation video in 279 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 1: private today. In it, Jeremy Webster tells detectives the shooting 280 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 1: felt like a dream, and he said he felt like 281 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: he was watching someone else attack the Bigelow family. In 282 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: the shooting, thirteen year old Vaughan Junior was shot and killed. 283 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: His mom and youngest brother were also shot. The mother, 284 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: Megan Bigelow, says she swerved trying to avoid an emergency vehicle, 285 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: accidentally cutting off the suspect in traffic. Then, according to witnesses, 286 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: the suspect followed her into the parking lot of a 287 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: dentist's office, and after a brief argument, he opened fire 288 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 1: on the family and another bystander. Witnesses say Jeremy Webster 289 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 1: saw the thirteen year old kneeling and walked over and 290 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: shot him again in quote execution style. Today, the defense 291 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: tried to argue that Webster was impaired mentally at the 292 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: time of the shooting and was perhaps not fit to 293 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 1: stand trial. The judge disagreed and set the arraiement date 294 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: for the week after Thanksgiving. Well, that means this is 295 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 1: going to trial. You were hearing our friends at Denver seven. 296 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: That was Lance Fernandez. An arraignment is when you are 297 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: formally read the charges against you and advised of many 298 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: of your rights under the Constitution. That's what an arrayment is. 299 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 1: When the actual charge is brought by a preliminary hearing 300 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: judge or a grand jury, is read out loud in 301 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: court and you are thereby formally on notice of what 302 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 1: the charges are. We see the defense already lining up 303 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: that he was by Paula didn't know what he was doing. 304 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: If he didn't know what he was doing, Dave Mack, 305 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: how can you explain and tell me if I'm right 306 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: or wrong? That? After he shoots the little boy dead 307 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: and shoots the other witnesses, the mother, the brother, and 308 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 1: an innocent guy standing in the parking lot trying to 309 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: take his daughter to the dentist, he goes to home depot, 310 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 1: webs out cash or a credit card, buys a saw, 311 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: and heads to work. He goes to work like any 312 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 1: other day. So how could he be insane and not 313 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: know right from wrong? Interesting that from the very beginning 314 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 1: of this interaction between mister Webster and the police, he 315 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,880 Speaker 1: was playing the mentally deficient card. Or however you want 316 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 1: to refer to it, saying that he had just changed 317 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 1: medication that day. I wondered the same thing. This is 318 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 1: a guy that seemed to be perfectly prepared to shoot 319 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:19,719 Speaker 1: somebody willy nilly and then go on about his daily life. 320 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: It makes absolutely no sense at all what Jeremy Webster 321 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: is claiming as what was going on in his mind 322 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: before this took place. You know, I learned a long 323 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:35,640 Speaker 1: time ago, and it took years for it to sink 324 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 1: in after my fiancee was murdered just before a wedding, 325 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: that you start your day like every other day, everything 326 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 1: seems perfectly fine. I remember walking out of a statistics 327 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: exam on my way to work at the library and 328 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: thinking about how bright and sunny and beautiful the day 329 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: was so glad to get the test behind me. And 330 00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: that's when I found out that out of the blue, 331 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: they've been murdered. Who would think on your way to 332 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: the dentist office, your thirteen year old son is going 333 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: to be murdered execution style, and the parking area at 334 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 1: the dentist office to dodger. Debbie Joffe ellis joining US psychologist. 335 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: He is claiming it all felt like a dream, but 336 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,439 Speaker 1: then he went to home depot and made a purchase 337 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,439 Speaker 1: and went straight to work. Yeah, you know, people, whether 338 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: they have bipolar condition or not. And by the way, 339 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: I feel compelled to say, let's not give a stigmatized 340 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: account of the bipolar condition. There are countless people suffering 341 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: from bipolar disorder that don't go out and murder people. 342 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: So putting that diagnosis aside, it sounds like he was 343 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,679 Speaker 1: very much to paranoid. A few minutes ago, one of 344 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: the reporters that you were presenting the words of said 345 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 1: that he felt people were out to get him. And 346 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: then earlier when you had disclosed that when the mother 347 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,120 Speaker 1: took the photo, that seemed to really set him off. 348 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 1: So you know, people without bipolar can be paranoid as well, 349 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: and they can disassociate. So you know, all of us, 350 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 1: whether we have mental issues or not, are able to compartmentalize. 351 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: So he may have been literally blinded by rage to 352 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 1: do the acts. Again, I'm not necessarily blaming his bipolar 353 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: condition at all. And then somehow dissociates and goes to 354 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 1: home depot a deeply troubled soul. I don't believe anyone 355 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: is commenting on the condition of bipolar. Many of us 356 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: have very close relatives with bipolar and pipolar disorder and 357 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: function absolutely normally society. It's something you can deal with 358 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,479 Speaker 1: and that typically not always, but typically can be control 359 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: with medication. I don't even know if this guy has 360 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,439 Speaker 1: by choler. That's just what he said and what as 361 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: lawyer said, I don't know if that's true or not. 362 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: But what I do know, which is the point I 363 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: was making, is that he isn't by far from insane. 364 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: In fact, he leaves a scene of a mass shooting 365 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 1: where he kills a thirteen year old boy execution style, 366 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 1: goes to home depot, makes a purchase, gets in his 367 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 1: vehicle as Toyota Corolla, and heads to his job site 368 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 1: at a construction site and works all day. So clearly 369 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 1: he knew what he was doing. There's a difference, I believe, Nancy, 370 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 1: between knowing what you're doing and choosing to act in 371 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: evil ways. Well, yes, that's what the law is. The 372 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: law is that insanity under the old McNaughton rule, which 373 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,639 Speaker 1: was in our common is in our common law that 374 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 1: we brought over from Great Britain, is that if you 375 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: knew right from wrong at the time of the incident. 376 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 1: You are not legally insane. I want to go back 377 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: to him going to home Depot, Dave Mac. You know, 378 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,439 Speaker 1: Dave Mack. I always say that Nasaka takes some tips 379 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: from home Depot, Lows and Target because they have the 380 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: most awesome video surveillance. I'm sure he's captured on video 381 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: surveillance making that purchase. I'm assuming that he has. I 382 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,640 Speaker 1: haven't seen anything indicating that. Well, we know he purchased 383 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 1: a saw, So I'm going to go out there and 384 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: say they got him pictured, you know, in that home 385 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,639 Speaker 1: depot buying the saw. You know the fact that he 386 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 1: just goes to work as if nothing is wrong, Stephen Lampley. 387 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: I assume there's going to be video from the dentist's 388 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: office parking lot as well as home depot, and there 389 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: will be witnesses at his workplace where he went that 390 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: will describe him working that day perfectly normally. Well, that's 391 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: the way it seems, Nancy. And what bothers me about this? 392 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 1: And again I was not there. I was not there 393 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: when he confessed and waved his miranda. But what stuck, 394 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: what's sticking out to me is that it seems like, 395 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 1: in my opinion, that he was just going out there 396 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: that hey, my meds were changed, and it it gives 397 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 1: me the impression that maybe he used that as an 398 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 1: excuse to do these crimes. I don't know, but that 399 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 1: stands out to me. But yeah, going doing Danny, going 400 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: about your daily routine. That's very troubling crime stories with 401 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: Nancy Gracedies. You know, Um, nobody deserves that children, nobody 402 00:26:54,960 --> 00:27:00,959 Speaker 1: deserves that. Our society has become so outre. You know 403 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 1: that you just don't know who you're living by, who 404 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 1: you're talking to. You've got to know, is sad that 405 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,439 Speaker 1: nobody could see what was going on in his head? 406 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: Or maybe he doesn't have anybody, maybe somebody you know, 407 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: you didn't have anybody. Do you recognize that he's got problems? 408 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 1: You were hearing a neighbor that's Connie who lived next 409 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: to Jeremy Webster. Apparently no one knew that there was 410 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:37,400 Speaker 1: anything wrong, that there was any mental defect or instability 411 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: or issue whatsoever, and expressed surprise that the shooting suspect 412 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 1: Jeremy Webster lived right there in her apartment complex. But 413 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: take a listen to this. I was talking to you 414 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 1: a little bit earlier about that witness I talked with. 415 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: She said that she saw one of the young kids 416 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 1: out here running towards the street. She stopped him, trying 417 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: to make sure that he was going to be safe, 418 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: and took him into a nearby dental office, Comfort Dental. 419 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 1: I spoke with one of the co owners of that 420 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: place just a few minutes ago, and he explained what 421 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 1: staff they're told him at the time. We knew he 422 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,400 Speaker 1: was related to the victims at the time, and the 423 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: story that I heard was that he was incredibly brave 424 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: and courageous and certainly helped the police officers get to 425 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 1: the bottom of what had gone on. Everybody's still distraught 426 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: in that office today, but they are open and you 427 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: can see flowers. A number of well wishers leaving some 428 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 1: flowers on the bushes underneath this sign. Here, this is 429 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: the parking lot where that incident happened. Yesterday, again, four 430 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: people's shot. One of those children died. We are told 431 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: that the mom and her other child are still in 432 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: critical condition, and that the other victim, a man, an 433 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 1: adult male, is expected to be okay. Again. Road range 434 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: behind issooting yesterday our friends is CBS four Denver. Was 435 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: Brian Mass speaking did you hear him? State Steve Lampley, 436 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 1: detective author of Outside Your Door, that he made contact 437 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 1: with another guy that must be the victim, John Gill, 438 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: that he shot John Gill was taking his daughter to 439 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: the dentist. He shot him down because the guy looked 440 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: at him, Nancy. So this was not like they were 441 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: saying a while ago. This is not necessarily tied to 442 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: the incident of being cut off. It's possibly tied to 443 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: pent up anger or something that happened previously, along with 444 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: his paranoia. In my opinion, well, I don't know about that. 445 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: I think it's a mixture because actually we hear that 446 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: the mom, Megan Bigelow, was dodging an emergency transport vehicle 447 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: I guess an ambulance and she accidentally cut the guy off. 448 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: She cut Jeremy Webster off and he began following her, 449 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: so she wasn't picked out at random, she and her family. 450 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: He followed her. We even through traffic all the way 451 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: the dentist office had pulled down, pulled in behind her. 452 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: It seems as if he blocked her in so she 453 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 1: didn't have anywhere to go. I'm not sure about that, 454 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: but got right behind her, so that is what triggered it, 455 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: because he picked her car after she cut him off 456 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: by accident and followed her for some period of time 457 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 1: on the highway until she pulls in at the dentist office. 458 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: That is what triggered it. Yeah, I completely agree. But 459 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: think about road rage in general, and I've seen it 460 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: happen on the interstates way too often, and that is 461 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: somebody accidentally cuts someone off, swerves over into the other lane, 462 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 1: and that triggers the person next to them, who then 463 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 1: literally will chase them. I've seen it on the interstate, 464 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 1: chasing them down. So I think that's exactly what happened. 465 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: He didn't care. The reason he didn't care what was 466 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: going on around him. He perceived it as she's going 467 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: to run into me, it's her fault. He then instigated 468 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: in a second and chased her down. Isn't it true? 469 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: Dave Jackie is here in the studio is telling me 470 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: that he got out, had a verbal confrontation with Megan Bigelow, 471 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: the mom of three, then went back into his car 472 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: and got his block his gun. Is that right? That's 473 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: my understanding, Nancy WHOA. That's what we call in the 474 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 1: law premeditation. Ashley explained her. I am so premeditation, Nancy. 475 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: You know, and you've said this often, and it's so true. 476 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: Premeditation can happen in a second, It can happen ten 477 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,479 Speaker 1: days before an event. It is when a person thinks 478 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 1: about it, premeditates and decides they're going to do it. 479 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: They think about it the second I would submit. This 480 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: man started chasing her car down. He didn't know anything 481 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: about her, didn't know anything about who was in the car. 482 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: He was angry. She came over, he chased her down. 483 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 1: That to me's the premeditation in this case. Well, the 484 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: judge trying to determine if there's enough evidence to buying 485 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: the case over for trial. Well, it ends in an indictment, 486 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 1: which means he is going to go to trial. Take 487 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 1: a listen to our frensy KdV R. This is Shaul Turner. 488 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: His name is Jeremy Webster. He's twenty three years old 489 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: and apparently lives in Colorado Springs. We don't know what 490 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: he was doing up here in the Westminster area yesterday. 491 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: He's being held for investigation of first degree murder after deliberation, 492 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: first degree homicide with extreme indifference, first degree assault, and 493 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: three counts of criminal attempt. Now, that road rage incident 494 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: that you were talking about happened right in this area yesterday. 495 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: We talked with an individual who said she was driving 496 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: by heard some gunshots. We know that the suspect apparently 497 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: fired multiple times, hitting four individuals, an adult male who 498 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 1: was in one of the vehicles nearby, an adult female, 499 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: and two of her at least three children who were 500 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 1: here on scene. Now, Webster himself then to golf, driving 501 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: in a black Toyota Corolla. He was apprehended along I 502 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 1: twenty five near Castle Rock yesterday, apparently taken into custody 503 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: without incident. He has now entered a not guilty plea 504 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 1: and is awaiting trial. But even though the case is 505 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: moving forward through legal channels, take a listen to the 506 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: district attorney. Nothing is gonna please them. Nothing we do. 507 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: Nothing that's going to happen in the system. You know. 508 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: The only thing that can happen is we can go 509 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: back in time and none of this would ever happen. 510 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 1: That's obviously impossible. And he's right what this mother must 511 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: be going through having her children shot. One one boy 512 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 1: murdered execution style in the parking lot at the dentist 513 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: all over a road rage incident. I'm sure she's blaming 514 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,719 Speaker 1: herself in some way, even though this is not her fault. 515 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 1: There's the aspect of survivor's guilt, which could plague the 516 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 1: other brothers and the mother for the rest of their 517 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:12,320 Speaker 1: life while they are chart listen. Jeremy Webster faces eleven 518 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,760 Speaker 1: charges and could face the death penalty. Investigators say Webster 519 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: followed forty one year old Megan Bigelow into a parking 520 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 1: lot in Westminster last week. They reportedly argued. Then Webster's 521 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,479 Speaker 1: accused of shooting the mom, her thirteen year old son, Vaughan, 522 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: and seven year old Asa. A man in a nearby 523 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,839 Speaker 1: car was shot as well. Vaughan was killed. And now 524 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 1: we're hearing for the first time from the victims of 525 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,320 Speaker 1: that shooting. They've released a statement and a family picture 526 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,479 Speaker 1: says quote. The Bigelows will need to have some help 527 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 1: moving forward. They ask that you consider donating blood immemorial 528 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,319 Speaker 1: of Vaughan Bigelow junior. Seven year old Asa has a 529 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 1: tricheotomy so he can't speak, but they say he's more 530 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: alert this morning. Oh my stars, I can hardly take 531 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,719 Speaker 1: in what that family is going through you're hearing din 532 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:04,839 Speaker 1: Verse sevens Meghan Nopez to Ashley Willcott. I don't know 533 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,839 Speaker 1: how you could ever deal with being there in the 534 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,360 Speaker 1: parking lot when your child's executed. Neither can I, and 535 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 1: I agree with you as a mother. You're going to 536 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: blame yourself. You're going to go over it again and 537 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 1: again and again and again in your mind to say, 538 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 1: what could I have done? What should I have done? 539 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 1: Here's the bottom line. At some point, as horrible as 540 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 1: it is, you have to forgive yourself and be able 541 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 1: to say it happened. There's nothing I could have done 542 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 1: to change the outcome. And I now have to be 543 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: here to continue to love and support my children. And 544 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 1: I can't even imagine what it might take to get 545 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:42,359 Speaker 1: through that as a mother. It's horrible. We wait as 546 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:48,400 Speaker 1: justice unvols Nancy Gray's crime story, signing off Goodbye friend,