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Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with

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Speaker 1: Me your Girl, Danielle Moody, recording from the Home Bunker. Folks,

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Speaker 1: I'm very excited about today's interview with Crystal little John.

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Speaker 1: She is the Associate professor of sociology at the University

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Speaker 1: of Oregon and author of Just Get on the Pill,

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Speaker 1: The Uneven Burden of Reproductive Politics, and is the author

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Speaker 1: of a new book, Fighting Mad Resisting The End of

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Speaker 1: Roe v. Wade that just hit stands this month. You

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Speaker 1: know what is extraordinary about the times that we are

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Speaker 1: living in, and I mean there are so many things

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Speaker 1: that are extraordinary, that are uniquely absurd and obscene, and

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Speaker 1: one of them is the war on women, right. And

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Speaker 1: we've heard that phrase before, and when I say women,

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Speaker 1: I mean all women, I mean people with uteruses. There

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Speaker 1: is and has been since the founding of this country,

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Speaker 1: the desire to control women, whether that be to deny

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Speaker 1: them access to the ballot, to deny them employment, to

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Speaker 1: subjugate them as nothing more than cleaning, cooking, and staff

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Speaker 1: in a man's household if you were in a heterosexual relationship.

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Speaker 1: Because that is what prior to women being able to

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Speaker 1: access their own financial wealth, visa, credit cards, and loans,

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Speaker 1: which didn't happen folks until the nineteen seventies. Right, Like,

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Speaker 1: you know, you have people in your family who were

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Speaker 1: probably born at a time when women could not get

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Speaker 1: credit cards without their husbands or their fathers. Right, That

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Speaker 1: did not happen in this country until after nineteen seventy four.

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Speaker 1: And so when we see this renewed push to criminalize

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Speaker 1: a uterus right, to give women absolutely no control over

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Speaker 1: their futures, this is the world that Republicans want women

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Speaker 1: to go back to, where there was a permission structure.

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Speaker 1: You had to ask permission from the men in your life,

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Speaker 1: right in order to make any type of move at all.

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Speaker 1: You know, we have the audacity to look at some

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Speaker 1: Middle Eastern countries and look at their treatment of women

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Speaker 1: and say, oh my god, no one would ever force

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Speaker 1: me to wear a job or a veil or this,

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Speaker 1: that and the other thing. And I'm just like, you

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Speaker 1: didn't have power until nineteen seventy four, and right now,

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Speaker 1: in a majority of states in this country, women don't

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Speaker 1: have power. I mean, the stories that are coming out

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Speaker 1: of places like Louisiana, right places like Alabama are horrific

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Speaker 1: stories of women being forced to miscarry, women being forced

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Speaker 1: into cesarean sections, you know, because of doctors that are

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Speaker 1: unwilling to take the risk of caring for them because

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Speaker 1: they don't want to end up in jail. So the

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Speaker 1: way that our society and the way that Republicans are

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Speaker 1: trying to set up our society is backwards. It is dangerous,

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Speaker 1: it is patriarchal, it is beyond oppressive. And I pray

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Speaker 1: folks that the more than half of this country right

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Speaker 1: will stand up come November and say no to the

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Speaker 1: Republicans up and down the ballot. And so my conversation

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Speaker 1: today with Crystal Little John is about what is happening

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Speaker 1: right now, how women and people with uteruses are fighting back.

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Speaker 1: This situation feels so incredibly bleak, but we have to

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Speaker 1: find hope and fire someplace because they're not going to stop. Right.

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Speaker 1: We thought that it was all, well, it'll just be abortion. No,

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Speaker 1: now it's ivy app Next up it is birth control.

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Speaker 1: Because if you can control a woman's uterus, you can

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Speaker 1: control her future. You can force her out of the workplace.

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Speaker 1: We saw what happened during the height of COVID two

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Speaker 1: million women, two million women left the workforce, because they

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Speaker 1: had to now be a full time teacher to their

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Speaker 1: small children. Men didn't leave the workforce, and I don't

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Speaker 1: know how many of those women were able to return,

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Speaker 1: but it goes to show you just how fragile the

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Speaker 1: victories are that we have won, and what it's going

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Speaker 1: to require in the future. Right, if we are to

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Speaker 1: ever get this right back in my lifetime, what it

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Speaker 1: will mean to solidify it so that it can never

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Speaker 1: be taken away again. My conversation with Crystill Little John

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Speaker 1: is coming up next, folks. I am very excited to

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Speaker 1: welcome to WOKF Daily, Associate Professor of sociology at the

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Speaker 1: University of Oregon, author of Just Get on the Pill,

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Speaker 1: The Uneven Burden of Reproductive Politics, and the new book

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Speaker 1: Fighting Matt Resisting the End of Roe v. Wade. Excited

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Speaker 1: to have Crystal Little John join us. Crystal reproductive rights

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Speaker 1: is something that I feel like I have been talking about,

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Speaker 1: if not every day, every week since the overturning of

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Speaker 1: Roe v. Wade in twenty twenty one. It is an

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Speaker 1: issue that I think that many people just assumed was

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Speaker 1: going to just be there. Access to abortion was just

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Speaker 1: going to there. It was quote unquote precedent, as all

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Speaker 1: of the justices that came in, Gorsich, Kavanaugh, and Barrett

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Speaker 1: come in and they say, oh, no, you know, we

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Speaker 1: uphold precedent, fingers crossed behind their back. They overturn Roe v. Wade.

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Speaker 1: And now what is present is in America. I don't

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Speaker 1: even want to call it a patchwork of protections, as

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Speaker 1: I have done many times before, is a dystopian America.

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Speaker 1: So please talk to us about your book Fighting Mad

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Speaker 1: and why it's so important for it to be out

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Speaker 1: right now in this moment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we wrote this book for exactly the reasons that

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Speaker 2: you're talking about, right. We wanted to edit a collection

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Speaker 2: that would show what people on the ground are doing

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Speaker 2: to protect abortion access in the midst of attacks from

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Speaker 2: every different angle that we can imagine, and to really

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Speaker 2: show that even as people are having to confront lack

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Speaker 2: of abortion access today, they also had to confront lack

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Speaker 2: of abortion access before Roe v. Wade was overturned. But

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Speaker 2: there were people then and now that are saying, we're

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Speaker 2: not we're not going to accept this right. We're not

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Speaker 2: just going to let the Supreme Court violate folks's rights.

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Speaker 2: We're going to fight to try and figure out what

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Speaker 2: we can do to get them the support that they need.

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Speaker 2: So from abortion funds continuing to do their work to

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Speaker 2: try and get people to be able to travel out

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Speaker 2: of state to get abortions, to folks working with lawyers

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Speaker 2: to try and help people get access to legal support

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Speaker 2: if they face criminalization for their pregnancy outcomes, whether that's

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Speaker 2: miscarriage or abortion, and so we just really felt like

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Speaker 2: it was important to showcase the work of folks that

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Speaker 2: oftentimes can get hidden, especially when you have these major

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Speaker 2: shocks to our system. Right when everybody can be focusing

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Speaker 2: on all of the different moving parts, it can be

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Speaker 2: hard to see the stuff that's going on behind the

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Speaker 2: scenes where you have people doing the day in and

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Speaker 2: day out work to protect people that can sometimes get

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Speaker 2: lost in the shuffle just not even be known. And

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Speaker 2: so we wanted to showcase the work of so many

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Speaker 2: folks that are brave and committed and courageous in just

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Speaker 2: so many ways, that are out there fighting every single day,

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Speaker 2: whether or not people know it or realize that that's

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Speaker 2: what they're doing.

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Speaker 1: Talk about the stories and talk about the kind of

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Speaker 1: profiles and courage because I don't think you know what's

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Speaker 1: funny is that we now wright eight years after Donald Trump,

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Speaker 1: talk about political violence in this country in a different

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Speaker 1: way since January sixth. But folks also need to remember

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Speaker 1: that one America has always been a wildly violent place,

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Speaker 1: particularly for Black Americans, at the hands of white domestic terrorists.

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Speaker 1: But abortion clinics used to be in the news because

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Speaker 1: of being bombed, right abortion providers. There are a number

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Speaker 1: that were killed and or shot at right for providing abortion.

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Speaker 1: So talk to us about because when we say profiles

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Speaker 1: and courage, it's like, oh, yeah, you're doing a great job.

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Speaker 1: It's like, no, this job of providing reproductive care, abortion care,

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Speaker 1: providing information is actually dangerous inside the United States.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and we have so many different like you're saying

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Speaker 2: profiles of courage from people that are doing this work.

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Speaker 2: So I immediately think about the work of the Emma Goldman

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Speaker 2: Clinic in Iowa. We talk with friend Seeing Thompson in

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Speaker 2: the book, and we talk about the work that clinic

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Speaker 2: has been doing, especially as they face all kinds of

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Speaker 2: different legal restrictions, new restrictions on abortion in the state,

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Speaker 2: and how their staff has responded to that right from

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Speaker 2: trying to make sure that they remain steadfast and the

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Speaker 2: work that they're doing right, committed to patients that are

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Speaker 2: coming in that are facing all kinds of hardships, that

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Speaker 2: are facing confusion about what's available to them, what they

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Speaker 2: can do, what they can't do, where they might need

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Speaker 2: to go to get services. And so you have clinics

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Speaker 2: like the MMIC Goldman Clinic that even amid the different

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Speaker 2: restrictions that are being passed that make their work harder

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Speaker 2: and harder to do, they stay steady doing the work

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Speaker 2: and trying to figure out how they can pivot what

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Speaker 2: they can do instead to try and make sure people

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Speaker 2: get the care that they need. Especially when we think

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Speaker 2: about the dab's decision and the context of the pandemic,

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Speaker 2: right and all of the different stuff that was coming

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Speaker 2: down and affecting people's lives. So I think about the

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Speaker 2: Emma Goldman Clinic and and the abortion the folks doing

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Speaker 2: abortion care there. I think about abortion doulas. So we

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Speaker 2: have Cynthiapu Theatris in our book that talks about her

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Speaker 2: work and as an abortion doula, which some people may

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Speaker 2: not even know about. Right. The work of folks that

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Speaker 2: are providing support for patients as they're thinking about their abortions,

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Speaker 2: as they're trying to get access to abortions, as they're

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Speaker 2: going through their abortions, and then after they have an

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Speaker 2: abortion right, if they need additional support there. And so

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Speaker 2: you have folks that are both agitating within care facilities

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Speaker 2: and within clinics, and you also have folks that are

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Speaker 2: everyday people just trying to make sure that they can

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Speaker 2: provide support to those people who need it. We also

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Speaker 2: have profiles from folks that are I think about if when,

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Speaker 2: how that are really working to develop legal funds so

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Speaker 2: that people that are facing criminal and have to deal

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Speaker 2: with all kinds, you know, they have to think about

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Speaker 2: how they can pay for a lawyer, they have to

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Speaker 2: think about some people have to think about bail, right,

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Speaker 2: Having funds available for people kind of anticipating that when

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Speaker 2: this criminalization happens, people are going to need to make

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Speaker 2: sure that they have as much support as possible as

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Speaker 2: they navigate things that they may have no idea about

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Speaker 2: how to navigate. And so you have so many people

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Speaker 2: from the educating, the education domain, the healthcare domain, like

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Speaker 2: I said, just regular people, everyday people. You have professors, right,

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Speaker 2: you have people, you have nurses, doctors, there's so many

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Speaker 2: people in the book that talk about the different ways

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Speaker 2: that all of us can can be involved in the

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Speaker 2: fight for abortion care and abortion rights, regardless of whether

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Speaker 2: or not we're directly involved in providing abortion care in

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Speaker 2: terms of being a health care provider, whether or not

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Speaker 2: we are involved in work with the government right, everybody

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Speaker 2: can have a role to play, and they provide just

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Speaker 2: a number of examples to show us what that can

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Speaker 2: look like.

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Speaker 1: It's extraordinary because I think that where I am, you know,

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Speaker 1: and where some people sit, which is in these tentatively

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Speaker 1: i'll say, tentatively blue states right where they feel as if, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're protected here, and well, why don't these

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Speaker 1: people that need care just go to where care is available?

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Speaker 1: And I want you to be able to speak to

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Speaker 1: one the resources just as you were naming out that

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Speaker 1: are required right in order to get to these states,

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Speaker 1: but then also the potential criminal investigation that they can

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Speaker 1: be under once they return, Like what is it that

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Speaker 1: crystal that people on the coast, who frankly are only

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Speaker 1: as safe as who is sitting in the White House

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Speaker 1: right now, need to understand about what has transpired since

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Speaker 1: the fall of Row.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think One of the biggest things to keep

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Speaker 2: in mind is the effect of both misinformation and disinformation

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Speaker 2: on how people experience, As we talked about before, the

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Speaker 2: patchwork of abortion care in the United States, and when

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Speaker 2: it comes to thinking about who this fight pertains to

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Speaker 2: and who's involved, I think it's important to recognize that

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Speaker 2: because of all of these different changes that have been

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Speaker 2: taking place state by state, and because of the rampant

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Speaker 2: campaigns to misinform people, it can be hard for folks

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Speaker 2: to understand what are their rights right, what will happen

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Speaker 2: to them if they travel out of state to get

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Speaker 2: an abortion, how could that differ by states? What is

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Speaker 2: the information that might be collected on them that they

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Speaker 2: may or may not even recognize as being collected from them.

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Speaker 2: And so I think when we talk about the resources

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Speaker 2: that it takes to get an abortion, I think, obviously

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Speaker 2: people have to have money if they have to travel

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Speaker 2: out of state to get an abortion, but I think

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Speaker 2: it's all we also have to think about information as

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Speaker 2: a resource and the importance of just knowing what's going

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Speaker 2: on on a day to day basis and how that

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Speaker 2: can change. And so when I am me and my

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Speaker 2: co editor of Ricky Soalinger are thinking about this issue.

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Speaker 2: We're thinking about the resources that involve the finances whether

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Speaker 2: when you have to travel to get an abortion, we're

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Speaker 2: thinking about the resources that might involve child's care. Right.

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Speaker 2: Many people that get abortions are already parents, and so

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Speaker 2: if they have to travel to get an abortion, who's

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Speaker 2: going to be around to take care of their children? Sometimes,

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Speaker 2: you know, people are having to travel for hours and hours.

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Speaker 2: They might have overnight trips, right, so that you have

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Speaker 2: costs ofel, you know, hotel stays, gas flights. Right, There's

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Speaker 2: all of these things that start to add up when

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Speaker 2: it comes to quote unquote just trying to get to

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Speaker 2: travel to get an abortion. And I think that though

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Speaker 2: even as we know that different companies you know, said

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Speaker 2: that they were going to provide travel for abortion care, right,

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Speaker 2: we also know that in the aftermath of some of

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Speaker 2: those promises, people didn't necessarily deliver on the things that

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Speaker 2: they said that they were going to. And even though

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Speaker 2: that's the case, I think that's why it's so important

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Speaker 2: that you have the work of abortion funds and reproductive

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Speaker 2: justice organizations, right, who have long been committed to folks

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Speaker 2: in their community who are striving to provide that access

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Speaker 2: to people where that's access to information, access to resources,

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Speaker 2: right funds to be able to get them to where

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Speaker 2: they need to be. There are people that are continuing

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Speaker 2: to do the hard work of providing the access the

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Speaker 2: different resources that people need to get access to abortion,

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Speaker 2: and those grow every day.

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Speaker 1: You know, before the fall of Row, so many women

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Speaker 1: and people with uteruses in these red states only had

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Speaker 1: but one abortion clinic, if any right in an entire state.

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Speaker 1: So even before the fall of Row, what we had

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Speaker 1: seen over the last you know, forty nine plus years

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Speaker 1: or whatever it was, is a chipping away right at

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Speaker 1: access and ability and of you know, for those who

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Speaker 1: know as well that you know, the High Amendment which

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Speaker 1: denied women the ability to use right like federal funds

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Speaker 1: and resources that you would receive medicaid and the like

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Speaker 1: to get an abortion right were not allowed. And so

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Speaker 1: there were already all of these restrictions. And from my

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Speaker 1: question for you, Crystal, is then now that it's gone,

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Speaker 1: how do you get it back right? Like your book

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Speaker 1: is about, you know, fighting back. And we've seen the marches, right,

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Speaker 1: we've seen women, politicians and others speak out against this

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Speaker 1: where you know, we saw it just recently in the

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Speaker 1: State of the Union, where Biden is, you know, making

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Speaker 1: it a front issue of his campaign. But how do

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Speaker 1: we actually get it back? And do you think that

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Speaker 1: we will in our lifetime?

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Speaker 2: I have the book gives me a lot of hope

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Speaker 2: that we that we will get it back. I think

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Speaker 2: that a key component of that is to refuse to

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Speaker 2: make concessions around abortion. I think that some of this, uh,

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Speaker 2: some of the issues that we continue to face are

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Speaker 2: in part a consequence of not having enough pushback to

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Speaker 2: the kinds of things that we're being done to chip

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Speaker 2: away at abortion access. So when we're talking about restrictions

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Speaker 2: on when into a pregnancy people can get an abortion,

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Speaker 2: and people being okay with saying okay, well, let's allow

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Speaker 2: people to keep saying we can set this limit, this limit,

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Speaker 2: this limit, versus saying people need access to abortion and

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Speaker 2: we need to fight restrictions that are preventing them from

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Speaker 2: receiving that access to abortion. And I think one of

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Speaker 2: the things that is just so heartening for me about

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Speaker 2: reproductive justice as a framework and as a movement is

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Speaker 2: a recognition that the courts have long failed to uphold

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Speaker 2: the rights protect the rights of marginalized folks in the

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Speaker 2: United States, and not only have they failed to do that,

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Speaker 2: as we see with Dobbs, and the Dobs is just

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Speaker 2: one example of the many ways that the courts have

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Speaker 2: actively sought to violate the rights of folks that are marginalized,

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Speaker 2: and so with reproductive justice, the biggest one of my

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Speaker 2: biggest takeaways is the importance of continuing to use and

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Speaker 2: deploy the things that we can do in all kinds

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Speaker 2: of domains as activists to fight for things, because I

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Speaker 2: don't think that any change is going to come from

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Speaker 2: folks just acknowledging that things are hard and that things

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Speaker 2: are continuing to be hard and feeling like there's nothing

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Speaker 2: that we can do. I think that change always comes

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Speaker 2: about by people fighting to demonstrate that they're not okay

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Speaker 2: with the way that things are going, that they're not

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Speaker 2: just going to quietly accept the violation of people's rights.

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Speaker 2: And I think that as we see the different effects

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Speaker 2: of what's been happening with Dobbs, I think that you

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Speaker 2: also see it We already had a lot of support

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Speaker 2: for abortion before before the Dobs decision came down. I

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Speaker 2: think when you see the horrible consequences that Dobbs has

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Speaker 2: wrought for so many people across the United States. I

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Speaker 2: think that you also see more visible activism around it.

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Speaker 2: It was always there, but I think that you have

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Speaker 2: more people who didn't feel like this was necessarily their

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Speaker 2: fight joining the fight and saying this is important for

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Speaker 2: all of us, even if people don't feel like they

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Speaker 2: are going to need an abortion or that they would

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Speaker 2: have an abortion, to recognize that this is assault on

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Speaker 2: people's freedoms generally, an ass alt on the reproductive freedom specifically,

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Speaker 2: but an assault on people's freedoms generally that people need

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Speaker 2: to actively agitate against. And I believe that it is

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Speaker 2: that agitation that can show political leaders that their constituents

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Speaker 2: are going to hold them accountable for protecting abortion rights

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Speaker 2: as a fundamental human right that people have in the

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Speaker 2: United States. Whether or not the Dobbs decision did what

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Speaker 2: I believe so and we know the court should have

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Speaker 2: done to protect people.

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Speaker 1: You know, I wonder my last question for you is,

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Speaker 1: as we move into November and the stakes on so

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Speaker 1: many levels and so many issue areas could not be higher,

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Speaker 1: what would be the one message that you would want

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Speaker 1: the Democrats to relay to women and people with uteruses.

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Speaker 1: If in fact, Donald Trump were to become president again.

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Speaker 2: I would say a key, a key thing that needs

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Speaker 2: to be relayed is that we cannot allow that to happen.

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Speaker 2: We cannot allow that to happen. We have to fight

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Speaker 2: to make sure that that doesn't happen. We need to

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Speaker 2: make sure that we loudly proclaim the importance of people

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Speaker 2: having access to abortion as right, the importance of making

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Speaker 2: sure that we undo the damage that has been done

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Speaker 2: by the Dobbs decision, and the role that everyone has

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Speaker 2: to play in trying to make that happen. Obviously, we

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Speaker 2: know that people's voting rights are continuously being encroached upon

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Speaker 2: in the United States, and we also know that the

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Speaker 2: courts have failed to uphold people's rights. But I think

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Speaker 2: that as part of citizens of the United States, we

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Speaker 2: can all have a role to play by doing our

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Speaker 2: part to try right to try and make sure that

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Speaker 2: this doesn't happen, because we've seen the consequences of it happening.

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Speaker 2: We've seen the consequences of not having leaders in power

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Speaker 2: that respect and uphold and value not only abortion rights,

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Speaker 2: but the very lives of women and people that have universes.

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Speaker 2: And I think The message that needs to be communicated

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Speaker 2: is we can't allow it to happen if we believe

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Speaker 2: in supporting people's freedoms and upholding people's freedom.

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Speaker 1: Folks, the book is fighting mad, resisting the end of

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Speaker 1: Roe v. Wade. And I just have to tell you

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Speaker 1: christ a little John. I'm just I'm so grateful for

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Speaker 1: the work that you do. I'm so grateful for this

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Speaker 1: book that you have written and that you made the

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Speaker 1: time to share it with us on woky If really

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Speaker 1: appreciate you.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: That is it for me today, Dear friends on wokay

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Speaker 1: app as always Power to the people and to all

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Speaker 1: the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.