Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big
Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners, wherever
Speaker 1: you are in the world. Thank you so much for
Speaker 1: joining us for another episode. Today is one that I
Speaker 1: am super super excited about. Something that we don't talk
Speaker 1: about a lot on this show is sex and pleasure
Speaker 1: and I think that it is really important to discuss.
Speaker 1: So I don't know why we haven't spoken about it before,
Speaker 1: but when I heard about this company a couple of
Speaker 1: years ago, I immediately downloaded their app. It's an amazing
Speaker 1: experience and additionally, I think really aligns with a lot
Speaker 1: of the values we promote on this show. We talk
Speaker 1: a lot about psychology, obviously, and I think, like everything
Speaker 1: in our twenties, sex in our twenties is also based
Speaker 1: in a lot of psychology. So today we are going
Speaker 1: to talk about it, and I've brought on a wonderful,
Speaker 1: fabulous guest to join us. One of the co founders
Speaker 1: of Dipsy, Gina Gutierrez.
Speaker 2: Hi, wow, I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for coming along. Can you kind of talk
Speaker 1: us through what we're talking about today, but also what
Speaker 1: dipsy is, because I think one of the big things
Speaker 1: about sex in our twenties is that we kind of
Speaker 1: don't really have like a guidebook. We kind of just
Speaker 1: go all in. No one's really telling us what to do,
Speaker 1: and we can feel quite disconnected. So where does kind
Speaker 1: of dipsy sit in that kind of space?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So dipsy is an app for audio erotica and
Speaker 2: the stories are all original and we write them ourselves
Speaker 2: in studio. Their sex positive, they're feminist, they're really fun,
Speaker 2: and they show what sex could kind of be like
Speaker 2: realistically but also really aspirationally. And it's obviously fifteen minutes
Speaker 2: of fun when you're listening to an episode, but they're
Speaker 2: also amazing to hear how sex could happen, or what
Speaker 2: you might say, or what a date could be like
Speaker 2: that you might really want to be on, or how
Speaker 2: you might enter a sex club for the first time.
Speaker 2: Right Like, they actually do teach you a little bit
Speaker 2: about how you might experience things in your own life,
Speaker 2: and we love that. We love creating a guidebook in
Speaker 2: a world where there are not a lot of guidebooks.
Speaker 2: So Dipsy is a brainchild of kind of the combination
Speaker 2: of what sexual wellness experience could feel like and also
Speaker 2: like a really great storytelling studio could feel like. And
Speaker 2: it is both.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and where did you get the idea from? So
Speaker 1: if you haven't kind of dipped your toes into audio erotica,
Speaker 1: I think it's amazing. Obviously, as someone who works in
Speaker 1: like the audio space, I think stories and like really
Speaker 1: provide us with an insane ability to firstly be educated,
Speaker 1: but also to connect not just with others but with ourselves. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: where did you get this idea from? Because I think
Speaker 1: it's like so smart.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you. So my co founder and I started
Speaker 2: the company when we were twenty seven, and I'd been
Speaker 2: thinking about these ideas since I was in college, so
Speaker 2: since I was eighteen. And I remember one of my
Speaker 2: really good friends coming back to our dorm and she
Speaker 2: had just had sex the night before with this guy
Speaker 2: that she was really into. She came back and she
Speaker 2: was like, I really like him, but I just the
Speaker 2: sex isn't that good. Why wouldn't that just be automatic?
Speaker 2: If I really like him, shouldn't the sex be good?
Speaker 2: So I started asking her questions about the experience. And
Speaker 2: when I asked her the question what are you thinking
Speaker 2: about when you're having sex? She looked at me with
Speaker 2: this blank stare and she was like, Wow, I really
Speaker 2: don't know. And something about that moment really struck me
Speaker 2: that she was so focused on her physical experience, she
Speaker 2: wasn't thinking about her mental experience at all. So I
Speaker 2: think many of us understand our brains holding us back
Speaker 2: from good sex. It's like I'm stressed out, so that
Speaker 2: makes my sex drive lower, or I'm preoccupied by a
Speaker 2: conversation I had earlier, and so I'm kind of dissociated,
Speaker 2: or I'm overly focused on what I look like or
Speaker 2: what I'm doing, or I'm you know, struggling in all
Speaker 2: these ways. These are actually like psychological barriers, but we're
Speaker 2: really not focused on what ways our brain could really
Speaker 2: support us and having amazing sex. And so, how do
Speaker 2: we have our own bank a fantasy that we lean on,
Speaker 2: And how do we have language that we use that
Speaker 2: we like to hear and guide someone in giving more
Speaker 2: to us, or that we like to say because we
Speaker 2: like to say it, And these are these amazing unlocks
Speaker 2: that really make sex so much better, and storytelling is
Speaker 2: such an amazing space for that. But the reason that
Speaker 2: we started it when we were twenty seven is because
Speaker 2: common Headspace were coming up, and common Headspace we're showing
Speaker 2: that you could make an amazing audio experience that was
Speaker 2: super immersive, and that wasn't there just to teach you
Speaker 2: something like podcasts were doing at the time, but to
Speaker 2: change how you felt. And I firmly believe that storytelling
Speaker 2: can change how you feel. And I really wanted to
Speaker 2: make stories I feel like that, and I had this
Speaker 2: hunch that audio Erotica could really be this amazing immersive
Speaker 2: experience that was imagination forward, so you could imagine kind
Speaker 2: of your own house on the blueprint that we were
Speaker 2: giving you with our stories, what characters looked and sounded like,
Speaker 2: what you looked and sounded like that in that story
Speaker 2: where you were how it all comes together is really
Speaker 2: up to you to create. And there's something really really
Speaker 2: powerful about that that I think is really really empowering.
Speaker 2: You really are in control.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I absolutely love that and totally fully agree. I
Speaker 1: really think it's fascinating what you said around how we
Speaker 1: recognize the intersections between our mental framework and our psychology
Speaker 1: and the sex we're having, but we don't recognize it
Speaker 1: in the moment, right. We think about it as a barrier,
Speaker 1: not as an enabler. So how can we kind of
Speaker 1: leverage that understanding of how our mind's working and how
Speaker 1: our psychology impacts our physical sensations to have good sex
Speaker 1: in our twenties. I think that's like the golden question
Speaker 1: that I get asked so much. It's like countless episodes
Speaker 1: podcast about this, you know, articles people want to know
Speaker 1: how to have good sex in their twenties.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I think first of all, it's answering what
Speaker 2: good sex is like. What makes sex good? I think
Speaker 2: is a question we don't often ask ourselves, and I
Speaker 2: think it's a very personal question. And what I would
Speaker 2: encourage people to think about is start noticing what feels
Speaker 2: good to you across all avenues of your life. And
Speaker 2: what I mean by that is, I think we have
Speaker 2: these stories or ideas of what feels good, like binge
Speaker 2: watching my favorite show feels good, or seeing this group
Speaker 2: of friends feels good. But then when you do binge
Speaker 2: watch that show or you do see the group of friends,
Speaker 2: you're turning off the TV, you're driving home, and you're
Speaker 2: thinking like, ooh, I'm kind of tired, or I'm kind
Speaker 2: of just like feeling a little dick, or I'm feeling
Speaker 2: a little bit out of my body. It's really interesting
Speaker 2: to notice that these things we might have stories about
Speaker 2: that make us feel good actually don't make us feel good.
Speaker 2: On the other hand, there are many things that you
Speaker 2: might do that really surprise you with how good they feel.
Speaker 2: Maybe there's a new friend that you're spending time with
Speaker 2: and every time you leave them and you're like, wow,
Speaker 2: I feel energized, I feel excited, I feel like I laughed,
Speaker 2: I feel like I was funny, whatever, and you notice
Speaker 2: that and it feels good. And so I think it's
Speaker 2: a really good place to start with just being like,
Speaker 2: listen to the signals of your body of like, this
Speaker 2: feels good. I would like more of this where this
Speaker 2: actually doesn't feel good, and you might be surprised by
Speaker 2: what some of those things are. I think we're very distracted.
Speaker 2: We have screens all around us, we're moving from place
Speaker 2: to place, we're busy with our jobs, and if we
Speaker 2: aren't listening to those signals, how can we listen to
Speaker 2: what those signals might be like in the bedroom. So
Speaker 2: that's like baseline where I start. Yeah, I think solo
Speaker 2: sex is also kind of where to start. I mean,
Speaker 2: the American sex education system certainly doesn't talk about masturbation
Speaker 2: the way I think it should be talked about, where
Speaker 2: it's a really by default safe place for you to
Speaker 2: explore what kind of touch you like, what you like,
Speaker 2: to fantasize about pacing order. You know, you get to
Speaker 2: start thinking through what your ropes are. You know, your
Speaker 2: own ropes, and I don't know. I think especially I
Speaker 2: hear this at dipsy with heterosexual women who are in
Speaker 2: partnerships with men who kind of almost assume that men
Speaker 2: come pre coded with knowledge about sex. And I can
Speaker 2: guarantee you that no one comes pre coded with that.
Speaker 2: But men often have the guidebook of porn and that
Speaker 2: comes with the whole mixed set of messages, some maybe
Speaker 2: interesting and some really harmful. And so if he or
Speaker 2: they or she is coming with their own ideas of
Speaker 2: what sex is and what good sex is, you too
Speaker 2: need to come to the table with your ideas of
Speaker 2: what good sex is. You feel empowered in that, and
Speaker 2: you can stand firm in that, and the only way
Speaker 2: you can really do that, I think is by exploring
Speaker 2: just by yourself. And so I think like round one,
Speaker 2: like step one is what does the self touch or
Speaker 2: the solo sex experience feel.
Speaker 1: Like, Yeah, I again, I just keep powerting it. Exactly
Speaker 1: what you're saying. I really really agree with that. It's
Speaker 1: really interesting because when I first started having sex, like
Speaker 1: in my teen years and then even in my like
Speaker 1: very early twenties, I used to just like define sex
Speaker 1: as like penetration. And I was literally talking to someone
Speaker 1: about this yesterday, where I was like I used to
Speaker 1: be like, all right, it's good sex if like it's
Speaker 1: penetrative and he comes totally and nothing else matters because
Speaker 1: it's all about like pleasuring them. And it's so interesting
Speaker 1: because I think when I started to be like really
Speaker 1: move into this like self exploration phase, I bought a vibrator.
Speaker 1: It's the best thing I ever probably the best seventy
Speaker 1: dollars I ever spent. And then suddenly it was like
Speaker 1: not only was I having better sex, but I was
Speaker 1: attracting better partners. And I think it also came from
Speaker 1: this like confidence thing as well, in this like sense
Speaker 1: of self of like, Wow, I am having better sex
Speaker 1: with myself than I've ever had with someone else, So
Speaker 1: I only want someone to elevate that experience.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think if you talk to the average I mean,
Speaker 2: maybe this is a little ageist, but I think if
Speaker 2: you talk to the average forty or fifty year old
Speaker 2: about sex being this playground to discover who you are
Speaker 2: and how confident you can be in this world and
Speaker 2: how much you love yourself, they'd be like, yeah, yah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: I think if you say that to a younger person,
Speaker 2: they're more likely to be like, yeah, totally, Like this
Speaker 2: is this underused space where if I have some more,
Speaker 2: if I pay more attention to what I can do
Speaker 2: in this space, I might like take that with me
Speaker 2: out in the world. And I think when people listen
Speaker 2: to Dipsey they sometimes say that, They'll say, like, I
Speaker 2: don't even need to listen right before I have sex.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I just walk out the street and I'm like
Speaker 2: I'm walking with like a skip in my step. I'm
Speaker 2: feeling good. I'm like bouncing down the sidewalk, I'm smiling
Speaker 2: at strangers like that. Feeling feels like feeling alive. So
Speaker 2: I think sex is just one way to be like,
Speaker 2: how can I like really feel alive and here in
Speaker 2: this world? And that's I mean, like that's so worthwhile,
Speaker 2: you know, Like that's that's it right there in my mind.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that kind of gets to this
Speaker 1: point right where it's like you don't need to be
Speaker 1: I think you don't need to be having sex to
Speaker 1: be experiencing pleasure. I think we often put sex on
Speaker 1: this pedestal. There's this weird conondrum I've found where there's
Speaker 1: like this shame around having sex. But it used to
Speaker 1: be a lot of shame around having too much sex.
Speaker 1: And now I hear a lot of people, see a
Speaker 1: lot of people with my personal life through this podcast
Speaker 1: who come to me and are like, I'm experiencing a
Speaker 1: lot of self shame because I'm having too little Yeah. Classic, Yeah,
Speaker 1: because I feel like everyone is selling sex to me?
Speaker 1: Is this like empowering thing? And that I need to
Speaker 1: have all of these sexual experiences in my twenties to
Speaker 1: like form the foundation of you know, having good sex
Speaker 1: in my third days or like having these stories. Where
Speaker 1: do you think that comes from? Because that's something I'm
Speaker 1: really fascinated by.
Speaker 2: There are so many shoulds in this space. It's incredible,
Speaker 2: and I think it's really interesting to me how numbers
Speaker 2: obsessed we are about sex. We like really try and
Speaker 2: quantify it, like how many times a week is normal?
Speaker 2: What's healthy? What's good for my relationship? And what it
Speaker 2: all boils down to is all of us asking ourselves
Speaker 2: like am I normal? And it's the number one question
Speaker 2: that we get asked all the time, like an investigation
Speaker 2: of whether normal? And the answer is that there are
Speaker 2: so many different ways to be normal, but everyone is
Speaker 2: normal in that there's just like different roots to discovering
Speaker 2: you know, what's going to work for you, and the
Speaker 2: shame around you know, having too much having too little.
Speaker 2: I see it as connected to the self care movement too,
Speaker 2: which I think net net very positive. It's wonderful that
Speaker 2: people have paid more attention to taking care of themselves
Speaker 2: and addressing when they're overstressed or overtaxed. But when that
Speaker 2: starts to tip into are you doing all this stuff?
Speaker 2: Are you meditating every day? These are these shoulds? Actually
Speaker 2: you're putting yourself into a new should space And so
Speaker 2: I would you know, really ask someone to reframe. It's
Speaker 2: like really not about quantity at all, unless that really
Speaker 2: matters to you, decide if that really matters to you.
Speaker 2: But it's actually allowing other people to decide what matters
Speaker 2: to you. I think what really matters is what feels
Speaker 2: good to you. And so if you're having a little
Speaker 2: high quality sex and whatever that means to you, that's amazing.
Speaker 2: Unless you feel like you want to be having more
Speaker 2: for it of it, Ask yourself that is that something
Speaker 2: that you care about, and start to like create your
Speaker 2: own ideas of what matters to you, not because anyone has,
Speaker 2: you know, other ideas that should weigh in on that.
Speaker 2: So there are going to be expectations in this space
Speaker 2: all over the place. I think in relationships, their expectations.
Speaker 2: When you're single, their expectations, and it's hard to We
Speaker 2: are social human beings. We look to others to help
Speaker 2: us understand how we move through this world. And that's
Speaker 2: very natural. But the shame around having you know, two
Speaker 2: little sex, I think now is a little bit of
Speaker 2: like this new thing where like the former stigma was
Speaker 2: like you know, you're out there and you're what are
Speaker 2: all the old fashioned sayings like you're too loose or
Speaker 2: too easy or whatever words were the words then? And
Speaker 2: I think now the new fear that I hear from
Speaker 2: a lot of twenty year olds, you know, eighteen to
Speaker 2: twenty four especially, is like have I had enough?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: Am I experienced enough? Is it shameful and embarrassing that
Speaker 2: I'm going out in the world without enough experience? And
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, like you don't need to put that
Speaker 2: upon yourself.
Speaker 1: I think that that is actually really getting too such
Speaker 1: a such a good point there of like the shoulds
Speaker 1: that accompany sex. And I remember talking to a friend
Speaker 1: the other day and I was like, you know, you
Speaker 1: can have a lot of sex and not much of
Speaker 1: it can be good, yeah, you know, or you can
Speaker 1: be having sex with one person right for your whole
Speaker 1: life and it's amazing. Like I think that that numbers
Speaker 1: that numbers descript on that numbers game you were talking about.
Speaker 1: I see that everywhere in like, oh, what's your body count?
Speaker 1: As well? Totally I'm surprised by how many people ask
Speaker 1: that question.
Speaker 2: I know, the body count thing is interesting. First of all,
Speaker 2: what a horrible phrase, so past.
Speaker 1: I know, I'm like, oh, and the fact that I
Speaker 1: think that it's like was first used very much by
Speaker 1: man and now it's one of those phrases where we
Speaker 1: just say we don't actually think about what that actually, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about what it actually means just right now,
Speaker 2: because I'm thinking about it for the first time in
Speaker 2: a long time, which is like sex as bodies and
Speaker 2: that we are these transactional physical beings and we just
Speaker 2: transact with one another and we handshake or have penetrative
Speaker 2: sex in this context, and then we move on instead
Speaker 2: of having some sort of emotional, chemical, interesting interaction with someone,
Speaker 2: even if that's just purely a one on one time moment,
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean that you're not having a human interaction
Speaker 2: with someone. Body count makes it sound so, yeah, your
Speaker 2: personhood is kind of a race from that completely.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I also think that when we think about
Speaker 1: body count in other aspects, maybe this is a bit
Speaker 1: of a stretch, but how it's used in like the
Speaker 1: military and to like accompany the idea of like dead
Speaker 1: bodies and like this, and when they used it in
Speaker 1: that sense, it was like, oh, what's your body count?
Speaker 1: As this like metal of honor of like how many
Speaker 1: people have you like dominated killed? It just I think
Speaker 1: is still very much this like descripture of like to
Speaker 1: be celebrated. The high your BodyCount the better, and especially
Speaker 1: when we think about its origins in terms of a
Speaker 1: very historically excessively patriarchal, misogynistic society. This is normally what
Speaker 1: it was referring to. Anyhow, we're off track, but I
Speaker 1: do think that it's like that language around sex really
Speaker 1: needs to go.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we're judgmental in both directions. I think we're
Speaker 2: judgmental of single people who have quote unquote too many partners,
Speaker 2: and we're judgmental of long term monogamous people who have
Speaker 2: had only one partner. And like we're judgmental about whether
Speaker 2: that's you know better or worse, whether you learn more
Speaker 2: or less, whether you have more sexual experience or less.
Speaker 2: And I think all of it is just, you know,
Speaker 2: we're projecting our own insecurities about what's happening with everyone else.
Speaker 2: But all experiences are normal, and all experiences are valid
Speaker 2: if they're what you want. And again, it all comes
Speaker 2: back to.
Speaker 1: What you want.
Speaker 2: But of course we struggle with that and sex because
Speaker 2: I don't think a lot of people are asking us
Speaker 2: to evaluate that. Very often we're not. We don't really
Speaker 2: don't really flax that.
Speaker 1: Muscle, absolutely not. I also think it links back to
Speaker 1: very much where we learn sex from. You know, we
Speaker 1: talked about porn, but also in terms about education system,
Speaker 1: the conversations that our friends are having, movies, And I
Speaker 1: recently really was thinking about this in terms of also
Speaker 1: like your first sexual experience and how much that really
Speaker 1: determines how you see sex unless you unlearn it. And
Speaker 1: I think that that also, you know, I don't think
Speaker 1: most people's first sex experience is particularly good. You know,
Speaker 1: it's might not be terrible, but like you're kind of
Speaker 1: just fumbling through it. And I think that if you
Speaker 1: think if your entire perception of sex is based off
Speaker 1: of one experience or like your first experience and how
Speaker 1: that went, and you're not and that's never been challenged,
Speaker 1: particularly what I was talking about before, where it's like
Speaker 1: it's very penetration based and it's very much based on
Speaker 1: like I'm a heterosexual woman, based on what the man wants.
Speaker 1: That takes a long time to unlearn. How do you
Speaker 1: think we can kind of start to unlearn that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting the idea of you know, well, I
Speaker 2: had oral sex and that's not sex or these are
Speaker 2: like common things that you hear, you know, in the
Speaker 2: categorization or the quantifying of like what sex is, and
Speaker 2: it all comes down to ignoring the feelings of it,
Speaker 2: just focused on the facts of it. Your question is,
Speaker 2: how do we move away from the idea that the
Speaker 2: first experience is like this, we over index on it.
Speaker 1: I think, just like, how do we unlearn some of
Speaker 1: some of the early things we're talked about sex, the
Speaker 1: harmful things we're taught about sex, whether that's from alpha
Speaker 1: sexual experience or from porn or from I think I
Speaker 1: think the education system is a bit different in Australia.
Speaker 1: We don't do amazing, but we I think do a
Speaker 1: little bit better.
Speaker 2: But even then, the American system is a.
Speaker 1: System oh wow, okay, so going against the there, but
Speaker 1: how do we unline some of those things?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you reference really early on in the conversation that
Speaker 2: there aren't a lot of good guide books and that's
Speaker 2: something that we a dipsy are very aware of and
Speaker 2: I think it right now. It puts the burden on
Speaker 2: people to do a lot of self discovery to find
Speaker 2: out what they like, but also to do some un
Speaker 2: learning and to do some understanding of how consent can
Speaker 2: fold into their lives and kind of do the work
Speaker 2: of being a healthy sex positive sexual partner. And that's
Speaker 2: hard because I wish it was easier for people. It
Speaker 2: shouldn't have to be so difficult to kind of self
Speaker 2: serve on the Internet to figure that out, especially because
Speaker 2: you might hit a lot of things that you don't
Speaker 2: want to see or aren't there information. The Internet is
Speaker 2: a wild West sort of resource, so I think finding
Speaker 2: sources that you trust really matters, and so like at Tipsy,
Speaker 2: we hope to be one of those sources. You know,
Speaker 2: you trust the makers. They're asking you to pay for
Speaker 2: this content. It is ethical content by default. If you're
Speaker 2: engaging with more classic visual pornography, pay for that content.
Speaker 2: That is the best and only way that you can
Speaker 2: really guarantee that it is on the side of ethical
Speaker 2: porn versus you don't know it's genesis or how it's
Speaker 2: being made. That you are allowing yourself to expand your
Speaker 2: understanding and what those resources are. Like, maybe you're really
Speaker 2: excited about fan thick on the Internet and you're like,
Speaker 2: this isn't teaching. This is just like the fluffy stuff
Speaker 2: about sex. It's not like you're actually doing active work
Speaker 2: and understanding what you like, what the mattics feel exciting,
Speaker 2: to you and what feels less exciting to you. And
Speaker 2: those are all resources that are available to you, and
Speaker 2: many of them are actually fun and engaging and don't
Speaker 2: feel like you're reading your eighteenth blog post about consent
Speaker 2: and still confused. No, I want people to listen to
Speaker 2: a dipsy story and say, like, oh, like that actually
Speaker 2: wasn't so complicated, that didn't like kill the vibe. That
Speaker 2: actually made it sound even sexier. You know, there's a
Speaker 2: spectrum from like consent to dirty talk, and there's like
Speaker 2: a huge in between of like what it means to
Speaker 2: verbalize during sex. These are things that are so hard
Speaker 2: if you don't have examples of what that sounds like.
Speaker 2: So people need more resources to figure that out before
Speaker 2: they're like out in the world. Some people are intrepid
Speaker 2: and they're like, great, I'll figure that out during sex
Speaker 2: and I'll learn as I go, amazing. And there's other
Speaker 2: people that don't feel as comfortable doing that, of course not.
Speaker 2: And so you know, our hope is that there are
Speaker 2: more resources like Dipsy around and there are, but yeah,
Speaker 2: it's okay to take either path. I think like getting
Speaker 2: out there and learning is great, and doing the work
Speaker 2: to learn was also great again and like what's your
Speaker 2: what's your path? Everyone's gonna have a different path.
Speaker 1: I love that you mentioned fan fic on the internet.
Speaker 1: I feel like that was such a introduction for me.
Speaker 1: Was like erotical, like erotic literature, and I remember being like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I feel so bad. I had like
Speaker 1: this one book at college and like I actually found
Speaker 1: it the other day and like this sex and it
Speaker 1: is so mild, Like it's so very mild, and I
Speaker 1: was like wow, like, oh my gosh, like this is insane.
Speaker 1: Like I like had the page like duggy it and
Speaker 1: like all that stuff. And I'm like, I do think
Speaker 1: that that is actually such a valid thing, Like I
Speaker 1: don't know, everyone loves a little bit of a smutty novel.
Speaker 2: Like yeah, every It's amazing how many people now that
Speaker 2: it's getting a little bit more comfortable to talk about
Speaker 2: these things. You know, Dipsy's been around for five years,
Speaker 2: and I think five years ago people talked about this
Speaker 2: less than they do now. Even like the new up
Speaker 2: and coming interest in uh like romance media like Bridgerton
Speaker 2: wouldn't have happened five years ago, which is cool to watch.
Speaker 2: The kind of that's happening, and I think part of
Speaker 2: it is like the pushback against misogyny happening in our
Speaker 2: culture where it's like cool, like you want to watch football, amazing, Well,
Speaker 2: I want to watch a romance vis of media and
Speaker 2: I want to watch Brigerton and that's an equally valuable
Speaker 2: way of using my time. And it's not like chick lit.
Speaker 2: It's not like worse media. It's like great media that
Speaker 2: is fun and I love to consume. So I think
Speaker 2: a little bit of it is like a pushback on
Speaker 2: there aren't certain types of media that are like by
Speaker 2: nature worse or better. You actually just get to choose
Speaker 2: what you like, which I think is really empowering and awesome.
Speaker 2: But yeah, we all had the dog Yard Book, and
Speaker 2: we hit the dog Yard Book right, and that was
Speaker 2: in an era where you had to kind of hide it.
Speaker 1: Exactly. It's so interesting though, because I distinctly remember my
Speaker 1: grandma having like, do you guys have Mills and Boone?
Speaker 1: What is that? Okay? So Mills and Boone is like this.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's just an Australian thing, but it's like this
Speaker 1: series of like smart books, like sexy romance books felt
Speaker 1: like the generation of my grandma. Yeah, well maybe even
Speaker 1: my mom so like, and they all look exactly the
Speaker 1: same and on the front will be like this eighties
Speaker 1: photoshopped image and I'll be like the Cowboy, yeah exactly.
Speaker 1: It will be like the Cowboy and the Runaway like
Speaker 1: something like that. It will be like the Mistress of
Speaker 1: ohm On or like something, and it's just like and
Speaker 1: it's just smuck. And my grandma used to have them
Speaker 1: everywhere when we were kids. So it's it's interesting that
Speaker 1: I still felt like shame around sex. I think because
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, Grandma, that's so embarrassing.
Speaker 1: But it was so it's so funny because I think
Speaker 1: that it's just and it I think also she did
Speaker 1: feel a bit of like shame, but then as she
Speaker 1: got older, she was like, oh, I'm I'm an. I
Speaker 1: still feel sexual urges, like I still feel pleasure. Wow,
Speaker 1: and I'm.
Speaker 2: Really powerful to hear that from your grandmother. That's really cool.
Speaker 1: She was, Oh, she's she's still alive. I don't know
Speaker 1: why I was like gonna say she was. She is
Speaker 1: like a very empower lady. And I think it, you know,
Speaker 1: I actually got old at that actually became more evident
Speaker 1: to me.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, when we were first starting to think
Speaker 2: about making Dipsy not just an idea but a company,
Speaker 2: we were looking at the romance novel industry and it's amazing,
Speaker 2: Like it drives the publishing industry, Like it is the
Speaker 2: reason the publishing industry is afloat. Literally Amazon had to
Speaker 2: create a different package in order to not lose money
Speaker 2: because romance novel consumers read so many of them that
Speaker 2: they were like literally taking Amazon out of business. The
Speaker 2: business model wasn't working, so they had to create a
Speaker 2: separate package for it. So there's like incredible, voracious demand
Speaker 2: for this content, but we weren't seeing that demand kind
Speaker 2: of trickle down to younger audiences. Why is that? Well,
Speaker 2: like is the guy with the long hair on the horse,
Speaker 2: like really the model of what's sexy anymore? Is that
Speaker 2: it there's all sorts of kind of baggage that was
Speaker 2: associated with the category that did really well for our
Speaker 2: moms and our aunts and our grandmothers. And that's amazing,
Speaker 2: Like this is not new, This is just new ways
Speaker 2: of making this feel cool and contemporary, and like it
Speaker 2: is talking about sex the way that you might talk
Speaker 2: about it with your friends or like actually have it,
Speaker 2: you know, out in the world. So I think it's
Speaker 2: amazing that that existed, but I also think we should
Speaker 2: be aware that that was very much like relegated as
Speaker 2: this like silly little woman's thing, which happens a lot
Speaker 2: where either sex is very very dangerous or sex is
Speaker 2: like this like silly, safe little interest, and those like
Speaker 2: those are the kind of the two places that it
Speaker 2: can be. You know, our understanding of what pleasure is
Speaker 2: is really really limited in the context of Western society.
Speaker 2: You know, we've been taught to be good members of society,
Speaker 2: and that our value is measured by what we make
Speaker 2: or what we do, or by our success or maybe
Speaker 2: buy how esteemed we are, and so we see pleasure
Speaker 2: as like a distraction to what matters most, or worse,
Speaker 2: like a place of no return, Like if we focus
Speaker 2: on pleasure, we'll ignore all these more important parts of
Speaker 2: our lives. And so pleasure is generally seen as the
Speaker 2: stone where it's like allowed to exist if it feels guilty,
Speaker 2: Like you can have it, but you better feel guilty
Speaker 2: about it. That's like the regulating factor. And I think
Speaker 2: the way that we treated romance novels for many, many
Speaker 2: decades was that it's like, Okay, you can have your
Speaker 2: silly little book that's safe, but like, let's make you
Speaker 2: feel a little guilty about it to keep it in check,
Speaker 2: because pleasure is seen as selfish, and pleasure is seen
Speaker 2: as you know, you need to earn it, and the
Speaker 2: worst worst case scenario, it's seen as dangerous, where like,
Speaker 2: once you get a taste, what will happen? And frankly,
Speaker 2: I think, in the context of our patriarchal society, as
Speaker 2: you just called it out, if a woman knows what
Speaker 2: true pleasure is, why wouldn't she just leave her husband,
Speaker 2: Why wouldn't she break the family you did? Why wouldn't
Speaker 2: she be out discovering and exploring. It was like, let's
Speaker 2: not even give her a taste, right, And those are
Speaker 2: the containers of thought that we still see when we
Speaker 2: talk to our customers. We hear that all the time.
Speaker 2: These are the things I'm afraid of. It's like, Eh,
Speaker 2: if I'm experiencing pleasure, I'm wasting time, Or like if
Speaker 2: I'm experiencing pleasure, that means someone else experiences less of it.
Speaker 2: Or if I work hard enough and get thin enough,
Speaker 2: then I deserve something.
Speaker 1: Like we all know that feels like that second point
Speaker 1: that you just said then was like like I've never
Speaker 1: been able to identify which one that if I feel pleasure,
Speaker 1: someone else.
Speaker 2: Will feel less zero sum.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Ye, I'm shocked because I think that
Speaker 1: that is an attitude that I've had for a very
Speaker 1: long time. Definitely, Wow, that was like kind of my
Speaker 1: going to me. But people are probably listening to this
Speaker 1: being like, yeah, Dad, that's not true. But like, I
Speaker 1: think it was just the way that you were able
Speaker 1: to describe that. I guess that really Also, I want
Speaker 1: to say, you're so right when you were talking about
Speaker 1: the you know, the cowboy with the long hair, and
Speaker 1: how this generation is is not particularly attracted to that depiction.
Speaker 1: And I really think you know that it comes down
Speaker 1: to people are more interested in a character psychologically nowadays.
Speaker 1: Same way they don't want them to be. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: don't want them to be like perfect, they want them
Speaker 1: to be they want them to have some kind of
Speaker 1: nuance and some kind of discoverability and some kind of
Speaker 1: vulnerability that is interesting. It's not just about physical form.
Speaker 1: It's not about being this like archetype and depiction of attractiveness.
Speaker 1: It's it's we are like we we want to be
Speaker 1: more psychologically satisfied by our characters.
Speaker 2: That's so well said, and you see that in fan fiction,
Speaker 2: like you see the kind of like enemy that is
Speaker 2: misunderstood and has so much more to offer, or the
Speaker 2: kind of mysterious character that hasn't been fully understood until
Speaker 2: one person can really see and understand them. And that's
Speaker 2: some of the most common tropes that you're seeing happen
Speaker 2: over and over again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, your biggest example is Christian Gray. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: probably fifty shades gay like this, like torture.
Speaker 2: Do you think he's redeemable often?
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: That's questions out here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I actually did read that. I actually read that
Speaker 1: series of my summer break this year.
Speaker 2: Oh really, I think I wasn't a fan.
Speaker 1: I was, I wasn't a fan. I actually didn't love it.
Speaker 1: I didn't love it. It was just at my beach
Speaker 1: house and I had forgotten to bring a book because
Speaker 1: I was hiking beforehand, and it was the only thing that.
Speaker 1: Funnily enough, they actually had three copies, so it was
Speaker 1: like me. Yeah, So it was like me and my
Speaker 1: cousin and one of my best friends. We were all
Speaker 1: reading it fun We book clubbed it like an accident.
Speaker 2: Of what was the debrief?
Speaker 1: Like, I think it was like, you know, it was
Speaker 1: so funny. At one point she won't mind me saying this,
Speaker 1: but my cousin was like, got to this part that
Speaker 1: I knew was like particularly spicy, and then she's like,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna go upstairs. Yeah, And I was like, you,
Speaker 1: I think that is so valid. I think like our
Speaker 1: consensus on it was like this is not actually that
Speaker 1: appealing because it would be like I think the one
Speaker 1: thing that I noticed about it was in all the
Speaker 1: sex scenes, it was like she came really quickly. She
Speaker 1: came within like three minutes, and I was like, and
Speaker 1: then she'd be like, oh, wave of pleasure, and then
Speaker 1: like he just kept going and then we would die. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I was like I do think. Yeah, anyhow, here's
Speaker 1: my book review. Guys, no one asked for it, but
Speaker 1: fifty Shades a great book group.
Speaker 2: I mean, fifty Shades blew open the idea of what
Speaker 2: a romance novel could be, which I think many people
Speaker 2: felt was like kind of this dowdy old school thing
Speaker 2: and that's cool, Like that did amazing work, But was
Speaker 2: it the best written version of what sex at its
Speaker 2: most aspirational and sexy could be. I think most people think, no,
Speaker 2: you know, the power dynamics at play there could have
Speaker 2: been a lot more nuanced, and the pleasure could have
Speaker 2: been a lot more mutual and like, listen to each
Speaker 2: their own, Like some people love that book absolutely awesome,
Speaker 2: power to you.
Speaker 1: But there.
Speaker 2: There needs to be more versions of what like a
Speaker 2: really sexy piece of media can look like. And I
Speaker 2: honestly I give credit to shows like Bridgerton that are
Speaker 2: trying to figure those things out on the big screen,
Speaker 2: which again wasn't happening five years ago. So I think,
Speaker 2: like talk about generational shifts, like what millennials were consuming
Speaker 2: is different than what gen z is consuming, Like it
Speaker 2: literally is a different world of content out there.
Speaker 1: Obviously, we've spent a large part of this episode talking
Speaker 1: about sex, and sex is fun and sex is fascinating
Speaker 1: and interesting. People love talking about sex. But there are
Speaker 1: some other things about your life right now, your experience,
Speaker 1: that I think would be equally valuable to share with
Speaker 1: people in their twenties. The first one being that we
Speaker 1: have almost a well we have a decade between us,
Speaker 1: so you're kind of like you're kind of me in
Speaker 1: my thirties, right, like where I'm at in my twenties
Speaker 1: in your fingxactly. And I think that there is at
Speaker 1: least around me in the people. I see this like
Speaker 1: ending doom associated with turning thirty, and it's almost like
Speaker 1: the clock ticks over. One of my friends the other
Speaker 1: day said to me, she was like, oh, what did
Speaker 1: she say? She was like, oh, thirty is when when
Speaker 1: women die, like no longer I know. I was like,
Speaker 1: I was like, I do people feel like, excuse me?
Speaker 1: I know, I know. I was like, Clare, that is
Speaker 1: not what we want to hear. But you are post thirties.
Speaker 1: How has it been. What's what's been some of the
Speaker 1: learnings in the new outlook on life? If there has
Speaker 1: been one?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you know. I'm thirty three. So the
Speaker 2: pandemic started when I was twenty nine. So like right
Speaker 2: at the tail end of my twenties, I think all
Speaker 2: of us in some ways felt like we were disrupted,
Speaker 2: like we last something, we last college years, or we
Speaker 2: lost like transition years in our twenties, or we lost
Speaker 2: you know, I lost turning thirty, like that was just
Speaker 2: lost to the wind of the pandemic. So there is
Speaker 2: something unique and present right here and now. But you know,
Speaker 2: speaking from my experience, my twenties were interesting because ten
Speaker 2: years ago, fifteen years ago, it wasn't as common as
Speaker 2: it is today to have queer friends that were out
Speaker 2: of the closet when I was eighteen, or when I
Speaker 2: was twenty or even when I was twenty three, Like,
Speaker 2: I had plenty of friends that one of my friends
Speaker 2: affectionately calls baby queers that were figuring out what it
Speaker 2: means to feel safe out in the world as someone
Speaker 2: who's stated as clear. And for those folks, you know,
Speaker 2: you're working through that feeling of you should be more
Speaker 2: experienced but aren't, and that can be really challenging you
Speaker 2: in your twenties. And I think there's versions of that
Speaker 2: that happened in our thirties too, Like we are all
Speaker 2: baby clearing in some ways. Where maybe you hit thirty
Speaker 2: and I've had this for plenty of friends and you're
Speaker 2: deeper in monogamy with someone, you've been with someone for
Speaker 2: a longer time, and you're like, hey, I actually want
Speaker 2: to figure out not how to not how to have
Speaker 2: good sex, but how to have great sex. What is
Speaker 2: that going to look like for me. So I actually
Speaker 2: see a lot of interests start to spike in maybe
Speaker 2: like the twenty eight twenty nine zone, where people are like,
Speaker 2: I want a self love journey, I want to love
Speaker 2: my body, I want to enjoy sex. I want to
Speaker 2: expand what my understanding of sex is. Maybe I want
Speaker 2: to open up my relationship. There's like more play happening
Speaker 2: with not just I want to have sex and I
Speaker 2: want to have as much of it as possible, but like,
Speaker 2: I really want to focus on quality, and I think
Speaker 2: that that's really a big shift in the thirties. It's like,
Speaker 2: how do I really focus on what quality is like
Speaker 2: to me? Which is amazing. I think people always talk
Speaker 2: about you feel less pressure as you grow older. I mean,
Speaker 2: I don't know, you feel pressure in different ways, but
Speaker 2: I think there's a little bit less of this, like
Speaker 2: I need to be out. I don't know, tallying my
Speaker 2: body account would be the worst way to say it,
Speaker 2: but like out there and like pushing myself and I'm tired,
Speaker 2: but I'm gonna go out on a Thursday. We feel
Speaker 2: that less, I think, generally speaking in our thirties, but
Speaker 2: we can still really attend to the moment we are
Speaker 2: in our sexual journey and it's not finished. You know,
Speaker 2: life certainly doesn't end at thirty. I love being thirty three.
Speaker 2: I love being into my thirties. I think I can
Speaker 2: definitely say that I love myself more now than I
Speaker 2: did ten years ago, and I hope that that keeps growing.
Speaker 2: And you know, the ernie is always there and bino
Speaker 2: libido shifts right Like you might be twenty three and
Speaker 2: a really little lebido at the time because your boss
Speaker 2: is horrible and you're working super long hours, or you're
Speaker 2: having body shame images, body image issues, and there's all
Speaker 2: sorts of stuff going on, and then you might come
Speaker 2: out of that and have a renaissance at thirty three.
Speaker 2: You might have a renaissance at forty. Like the moments
Speaker 2: that we're having the best sex in our lives are
Speaker 2: certainly not maintained or like bound by our twenties. I
Speaker 2: think actually most people that I speak to that are
Speaker 2: past their twenties say they're having better sex now than
Speaker 2: they did then. So it's ahead of you. Look forward
Speaker 2: to it. There's a lot more life to live. I
Speaker 2: think the greater interest in sexual self discovery is kind
Speaker 2: of the big one that I feel really excited by.
Speaker 2: You know, what does that look like for me? What's
Speaker 2: that going to feel? Like? How am I going to
Speaker 2: bring that out? What class am I going to take?
Speaker 2: Am I gonna take a Shabari class? Am I gonna
Speaker 2: learn to love my body through a dance class?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: I see a lot more of that. It's a little
Speaker 2: bit more like high intention, which I really respect.
Speaker 1: What's a shabari class?
Speaker 2: Rope tang? Like a complex kind of art but also
Speaker 2: like a form of BDSM that involves knots and ropes.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, wow, fascinating. There we go. I'm learning.
Speaker 1: I had no idea what that was, but super super cool.
Speaker 1: It's also good to hear I think that the best
Speaker 1: is yet to come. It is such a trend like
Speaker 1: hearing that I do think that our twenty so like
Speaker 1: the quantity is yeah, we're like how many sexual experiences
Speaker 1: can I have? How much alcohol can I drink? How
Speaker 1: many countries can I visit? How many like you're mosting
Speaker 1: really hard? How much money can I make? Like everything
Speaker 1: is like yeah, it's like I just want the maximum
Speaker 1: of everything, the maximum pleasure, And it's kind of tiring
Speaker 1: to be honest and sometimes I just want like I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm cool with like the bare minimum.
Speaker 2: Well, maybe that's another thing that I can speak to.
Speaker 2: That you're thirty four, I think you give yourself a
Speaker 2: lot more leeway to like feel the feeling that you're feeling,
Speaker 2: and if that feeling is t that's okay, and that's
Speaker 2: really liberating. I mean, I don't know if you're familiar
Speaker 2: with the account then ministry, but I think it's like
Speaker 2: really powerful stuff, yeah, around liberation coming from allowing yourself
Speaker 2: to feel what you feel and if that feeling is tired,
Speaker 2: to embrace it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think it's also a massive shift in psychology
Speaker 1: as well. Of Previously it was around treating the negative thoughts,
Speaker 1: treating the self criticism, treating whatever's going on, and the
Speaker 1: way to like treat it was to like shame it
Speaker 1: out of ourselves or to suppress it, or to be
Speaker 1: like go for a run, like go and do this,
Speaker 1: go and distract yourself. And nowadays it's more like, actually
Speaker 1: you need to sit with them, and anything else is
Speaker 1: actually just going to exacerbate that feeling, that distress, whatever
Speaker 1: that urge is. So you need to really like embrace
Speaker 1: the good and the bad, which I think is such
Speaker 1: a part of positive psychology and like more holistic psychology
Speaker 1: that's like really coming through in this in this like
Speaker 1: new generation of psychologists, so super fascinating. The other thing
Speaker 1: I want to talk about is your journey through entrepreneurship.
Speaker 1: I know it hasn't it has actually does have stuff
Speaker 1: to do with sex. I know this is just like
Speaker 1: a sex episode. Obviously you started Dipsy. How has that
Speaker 1: been because I think we were talking about this before
Speaker 1: we started recording like that. Yeah, yeah, I know we
Speaker 1: should have started recording then, but it's still gonna be great. Yeah,
Speaker 1: around like your journey through entrepreneurship, I feel like everyone
Speaker 1: is fascinated by how you can start a business, what
Speaker 1: makes a business, all of those kinds of things. Can
Speaker 1: you talk us through were you working elsewhere before, like
Speaker 1: the whole journey would be would be great to hear
Speaker 1: your path through.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean this could take hour or so, I'll
Speaker 2: try and keep it brief. So before I started Dipsy,
Speaker 2: I was a brand strategist, So I was helping brands
Speaker 2: figure out how to meet people where they are with
Speaker 2: what they could authentically offer and tell stories that people liked,
Speaker 2: were interested in, and so storytelling was always part of
Speaker 2: the mix. I studied psychology and undergrad and oh I
Speaker 2: got I didn't. And I have always been really curious
Speaker 2: about what people want, what makes them tick, and why
Speaker 2: they do different things than what they state that they want,
Speaker 2: just really you know, just fascinating stuff, just the baseline
Speaker 2: of you know, human behavior. And then I met my
Speaker 2: co founder, and it was right around the time that
Speaker 2: I had this idea. And I think the moment that
Speaker 2: you take the idea to the reality of like, I'm
Speaker 2: quitting my job, I will not be making money, I'm
Speaker 2: going to put all of my eggs in this basket
Speaker 2: definitely helps when you have someone who is equally passionate
Speaker 2: about that idea. So I think that we really supported
Speaker 2: each other when the other was feeling a little bit
Speaker 2: like ah, the other person was there to be you know,
Speaker 2: there's only room for one person at a time to
Speaker 2: be having a freak out, right, and so we got
Speaker 2: to balance each other in those ways and be like, no,
Speaker 2: this is really compelling the researches here and why.
Speaker 1: While I was a.
Speaker 2: Natural storyteller and was excited to figure out what this
Speaker 2: content was going to sound like Fay is an engineer,
Speaker 2: and Fay knows how to build a product, and so
Speaker 2: we were kind of a perfect team to make it happen.
Speaker 2: So I think finding for someone that you have good
Speaker 2: fit with but also someone who you really trust and
Speaker 2: really like matters a lot. Like you're going to be
Speaker 2: spending so much time with whoever you decide to be
Speaker 2: your business partner, should you follow that path, so that
Speaker 2: selection matters. And I would say that mattered in the
Speaker 2: last five years even more than my romantic partner, if
Speaker 2: you can believe it, We've spent so much time together,
Speaker 2: like in many ways she is my other partner.
Speaker 1: Really all that's actually quite beautiful to hear that. Also,
Speaker 1: that fear of like transitioning from being like I've quit
Speaker 1: my job to doing this, that is so scary.
Speaker 2: It's so high conviction, right, like you are really saying
Speaker 2: and I really believe this, and then you are asked
Speaker 2: questions every day to push back on whether what you
Speaker 2: believe is true, and so you have many chances a
Speaker 2: day to be like, do I still believe this? Right?
Speaker 2: And you really just have to keep believing it. And
Speaker 2: I think that if that feels excited because you feel
Speaker 2: such high conviction in something that's amazing and otherwise wait
Speaker 2: for an idea that really makes you feel that way,
Speaker 2: because that conviction will be tested on a daily basis,
Speaker 2: and there will be many people that don't believe. And
Speaker 2: that's hard. That knocks your ego. I really had to
Speaker 2: work on my self esteem through that problem, Like, what
Speaker 2: if not everyone thinks this is what I should be
Speaker 2: spending my time doing. What if not everyone thinks this
Speaker 2: will work? What if not everyone thinks this is important.
Speaker 2: It's hard enough already just every day figuring out how
Speaker 2: to do it, but it's harder when other people don't
Speaker 2: necessarily think it's yeah. You know, does a fifty year
Speaker 2: old white man who my dad's business partner think that
Speaker 2: Dipsy's is important as a twenty five year old who
Speaker 2: is so excited this product exists. Of course not, but
Speaker 2: there are people like that, and so finding that people
Speaker 2: that remind you of why this matters to you and
Speaker 2: reminds you of as being important along the journey is
Speaker 2: also really huge. We were talking about that earlier too.
Speaker 2: It's helpful in the world of podcasting, you're like alone
Speaker 2: a lot. It's helpful to get ot there and be
Speaker 2: like Wow, I meet you and you really like what
Speaker 2: I'm doing. That's amazing.
Speaker 1: It's also what you were talking about, the idea that
Speaker 1: comes along. I've watched this amazing Ted talk the other
Speaker 1: day that was explaining how ancient civilizations used to think
Speaker 1: that the ideas lived in the walls and in the wind,
Speaker 1: and so like an idea would come to you in
Speaker 1: the wind and you had to like grab it, and
Speaker 1: you had like a responsibility to grab it out and
Speaker 1: hold on to it super tight because and you can
Speaker 1: see the ideas like floating by. I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people have like million dollar ideas on a daily basis.
Speaker 1: I think everyone has had a million dollar idea, but
Speaker 1: it's like they just let it float by then grab
Speaker 1: it and it is it takes a lot of courage
Speaker 1: to do both things. I think it takes a lot
Speaker 1: of courage to be like, oh, you know, I actually
Speaker 1: have a family right now and I can't do that
Speaker 1: or I need to focus on my studies, but also
Speaker 1: a lot of courage to be like you know, I
Speaker 1: think that was my experience. I was like the first
Speaker 1: couple of months first year, it was like I didn't
Speaker 1: get any listens I've really it was just like my
Speaker 1: family and close friends, and it just like you just
Speaker 1: got to push through and believe in what you're doing exactly.
Speaker 2: Maybe those are my two biggest learnings.
Speaker 1: Is that possible?
Speaker 2: Could I boil it out to two, that'd be a miracle.
Speaker 2: But I think, you know, what you just said is
Speaker 2: so right, Like there are some people that say, like,
Speaker 2: I have the grit and I'm willing to push through it,
Speaker 2: and I'm willing to deal with a year maybe even
Speaker 2: more where I'm not getting the feedback that I want yet,
Speaker 2: but I just believe and I keep pushing. And there
Speaker 2: are other people that think like that actually sounds more
Speaker 2: terrifying than fun. And I don't know if I have
Speaker 2: that sort of grit. And I actually feel really happy
Speaker 2: pursuing something where someone is telling me what they need
Speaker 2: and I'm doing my job really well, and that is
Speaker 2: an equally respectable path. And in many ways I envy
Speaker 2: that in my hardest days because being entrepreneurs, like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, is responsibilities on me all the time or
Speaker 2: me my co founder all the time. So talk about
Speaker 2: the shame thing, It's like, there's no shame in finding
Speaker 2: what works for you and entrepreneurship definitely isn't for everyone,
Speaker 2: but if you really feel excited to hold tight to
Speaker 2: that idea and like you just want to prove and
Speaker 2: like great, grab it. And your twenties are a great
Speaker 2: time for that because you're full of energy and like,
Speaker 2: you know, what else are you doing? Let's just try it,
Speaker 2: and so it's an amazing time. It's an amazing time.
Speaker 1: Also, I think if you fuck up, it's like that
Speaker 1: was my whole thing. I was like, I have nothing
Speaker 1: to lose by doing this. I have nothing to lose,
Speaker 1: like if I fuck up, Yeah, it's like I really was,
Speaker 1: like and also when when am I going to do this? Otherwise? Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: when else am I going to take this risk? You
Speaker 1: know in my you know, things could happen at any point,
Speaker 1: like yeah, you have children, you have a mortgage, like
Speaker 1: you're getting promoted your family members. Ill, like I need
Speaker 1: to go back and do this, like do my master's.
Speaker 1: I need to. Like I think that it was just
Speaker 1: such a sometimes everything just kind of aligns, but like
Speaker 1: you will be texted. I've learned that like the universe,
Speaker 1: the universe, like some like I think that anything worth
Speaker 1: having isn't easy. Otherwise everyone would have it so wise
Speaker 1: I know that such like it. Sometimes people like yeah,
Speaker 1: sometimes people give me, like give me a little bit
Speaker 1: of flack for that. They're like, yeah, a lot of
Speaker 1: things that are worth having it easy. But I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: but I think that there are some things that aren't,
Speaker 1: you know, like not everyone everyone wants a goal. Yeah
Speaker 1: I want an Olympic medal.
Speaker 2: Right. The phrase that I like to use is like,
Speaker 2: what game do you want to be playing and what
Speaker 2: pain are you willing to tolerate? And so maybe you
Speaker 2: are the kind of person who can really deal with
Speaker 2: challenging personalities and that's just like kind of you know,
Speaker 2: water off your back.
Speaker 1: It's it's not.
Speaker 2: Super stressful to you, but for other people that's like
Speaker 2: intensely uncomfortable. And so maybe you know, being a nurse
Speaker 2: in a hospital isn't the job for you because that
Speaker 2: is like sort of pain that you'd be encountering on
Speaker 2: a daily basis. Okay, so maybe that's not the game
Speaker 2: that you play, but yeah, life is. I think about
Speaker 2: picking the games that you want to play and knowing
Speaker 2: that like, no path is going to be like default wonderful.
Speaker 2: There's all there's so many things about being entrepreneurs are
Speaker 2: so wonderful. You pick who you work with, you choose
Speaker 2: the problems you want to work on, you decide how
Speaker 2: you want to spend your time, and you own them. Like,
Speaker 2: those are really amazing things. But the downside of that,
Speaker 2: if you don't like it is you feel like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, I have all this time. What am I
Speaker 2: supposed to do with it? How am I supposed to
Speaker 2: organize it? How am I supposed to use it? I
Speaker 2: have to pick people. That's so hard, Like, I don't
Speaker 2: like hiring. I find that really stressful. Like there's all
Speaker 2: sorts of ways that you can see the same thing
Speaker 2: in two different directions, And yeah, so probably I could
Speaker 2: bring that all the way back to what feels good
Speaker 2: for you, Like if you're paying attention to what feels
Speaker 2: good for you and you're like, I end this day
Speaker 2: feeling like it was exhausting, but I'm not depleted, I'm
Speaker 2: just tired.
Speaker 1: Cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a difference there.
Speaker 1: Jana, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Speaker 1: This is possibly one of my favorite episodes. I don't
Speaker 1: know why I haven't spoken about sex and pleasure before.
Speaker 1: There's so much psychology and like so many facets of
Speaker 1: it that definitely need to be explored more. I want
Speaker 1: to also say this episode was not sponsored. I just
Speaker 1: really love dipsy. It was not sponsored in any capacity. However,
Speaker 1: if you do want to download this app, experience it's
Speaker 1: some amazing storytelling, it's some amazing audio content. It's a
Speaker 1: little bit different to mine. You can go to what's
Speaker 1: it dipsy dot com slash psych twenty.
Speaker 2: No, you can head two dipsystories dot com slash Psych twenty.
Speaker 2: That's dip sea stories dot com slash psych twenty.
Speaker 1: There you go and you get.
Speaker 2: You'll get thirty days free, so you can explore literally
Speaker 2: every piece of content to your heart's desire for thirty
Speaker 2: days and decide if it's right.
Speaker 1: Breathe, Oh my goodness, look at that. It's free. You
Speaker 1: may as well do it. You may as well just
Speaker 1: download it for thirty days and listen to some fun stories,
Speaker 1: do some exploring. Yeah, do some exploring. I think that's
Speaker 1: really really valuable.
Speaker 2: And I would also definitely say follow us on TikTok
Speaker 2: and Instagram. We put all sorts of fun content, educational
Speaker 2: content out there that's at dipsy stories on both TikTok
Speaker 2: and Instagram. I think the stuff we put up there
Speaker 2: is amazing, and our social media manager is a wizard.
Speaker 1: Actually, I did see something on TikTok the other day
Speaker 1: and it was like one of your stories, like your
Speaker 1: stories and like yeah, and it was like over this
Speaker 1: like tree backdrop, and I was like, wow, who.
Speaker 2: We targeted your effect?
Speaker 1: Oh my god to hear you're my alcohol and just
Speaker 1: like and I follow I follow you guys, but not okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: but like this one in particular was like I was like,
Speaker 1: it's spoke me out. Yeah, it was really good. I
Speaker 1: literally was like, oh, when you listen to a cute
Speaker 1: little story, Thank you so much again for coming on.
Speaker 1: I really think that what you're doing is amazing. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for listening to today's episode. As always,
Speaker 1: if you feel cool to do so, please feel free
Speaker 1: to leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
Speaker 1: wherever you're listening right now. Make sure you go and
Speaker 1: check out dipsy of course, and if you have an
Speaker 1: episode suggestion. If you just want to follow along, please
Speaker 1: follow me at that Psychology podcast on Instagram and on
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Speaker 1: have in the works. We would love to see you
Speaker 1: over there and as always, have a lovely week. We
Speaker 1: will be back with another episode in a couple of
Speaker 1: days