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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told You. From house supports

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and

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Speaker 1: I'm Caroline, and this week we're talking about women and agriculture,

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Speaker 1: and today we're focusing on farming. And Caroline, this episode

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Speaker 1: made me a little bit jealous because I do not

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Speaker 1: have a green thumb. No, I I am at once

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Speaker 1: accepting of the fact that I have a brown or

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Speaker 1: a black thumb and in denial because I understand that

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Speaker 1: I have in fact killed bamboo before i've killed a cactus.

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Speaker 1: But on the other hand, I am still ever optimistic.

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Speaker 1: I purchased a whole bunch of plants now that it's

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Speaker 1: spring and it's warm and like tropical in Atlanta. Already,

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Speaker 1: I've purchased a bunch of plants to keep it my

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Speaker 1: boy friend's house because I have no yard um and

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Speaker 1: I am convinced that this year, Kristen, this is the

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Speaker 1: year that I'm going to keep them alive. Well, I'll

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Speaker 1: be rooting for you. I like, I'll be rooting for

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Speaker 1: the plants you as well, but but more the plants, Caroline.

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Speaker 1: I get it. Rooting rooting an intentional gardening pun didn't

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Speaker 1: even mean to make that happen off to a good story. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Um well, I can't imagine, for one, keeping a plant

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Speaker 1: in a pot alive, but to keep entire fields of

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Speaker 1: plants alive is mind boggling to me on a personal level.

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Speaker 1: And when it comes to women in farming, though, this

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Speaker 1: is a really exciting time to be a woman working

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Speaker 1: the land because women have been farming as long as

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Speaker 1: men have been farming, really, but in recent years there's

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Speaker 1: been a lot more attention paid to the role of

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Speaker 1: women in agriculture. Yeah, we've got this thing that is

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Speaker 1: referred to across a whole bunch of sources called the

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Speaker 1: grass ceiling, that women are finally cracking the grass ceiling,

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Speaker 1: or I guess putting a shovel in it. Yeah, we're

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Speaker 1: getting out our lady lawnmowers. And now that's right, that's right. Um.

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Speaker 1: But a lot of focus traditionally has been on women's

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Speaker 1: role on the farm being one of support. She's the

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Speaker 1: supporting actress. So she's at home at the farmhouse, she's

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Speaker 1: cooking dinner, she's paying the bill, she's making sure all

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Speaker 1: of the homestead stuff is taken care of while her

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Speaker 1: cowboy farmer husband is out on the tractor, farming the fields.

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Speaker 1: But as we'll get into, women have so much more

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Speaker 1: of a role than just that. Then, not that there's

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Speaker 1: anything wrong with being at the homestead and cooking dinner

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Speaker 1: and all of that good stuff, but women do have

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Speaker 1: an incredibly active, rich, vital role out in the fields

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Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, no longer is the end all be

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Speaker 1: all to become a farmer's wife. Um and Barrett Brandt

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Speaker 1: wrote about feminism and the idea of the farmer's wife

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Speaker 1: and the relationship between farming women and feminism in a

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Speaker 1: paper called on the Relationship between Feminism and farm Women

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Speaker 1: UH in the journal Agriculture and Human Values, and she

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Speaker 1: talks about how in the nineteen eighties and nineties, research

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Speaker 1: on women farmers consistently found those farming families, as you

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Speaker 1: talked about, reflecting these kinds of patriarchal power structures, men

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Speaker 1: as the landowners, rendering women subordinate to them and in

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Speaker 1: a lot of ways even to the land. And I

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Speaker 1: thought it was interesting too that the f f A

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Speaker 1: formerly known as Future Farmers of America didn't even admit

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Speaker 1: girls until nineteen sixty nine, although, as reported on a

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Speaker 1: couple of years ago in USA, today it's now made

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Speaker 1: up a forty four percent women compared to just women

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Speaker 1: in so even when it comes to youth an interest

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Speaker 1: in farming, we're seeing a growing interest among girls. But

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Speaker 1: that's crazy to me that, Like I I get the

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Speaker 1: whole thing about attitudes about women and not thinking that

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Speaker 1: women are cut out for farming. Like I understand that

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Speaker 1: some of those attitudes existed and somehow, you know, still

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Speaker 1: do exist. But it's crazy to me that in an

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Speaker 1: organization called the Future Farmers of America, they weren't even like,

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Speaker 1: maybe we should let little girls play well because they

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Speaker 1: would be in the future of farmer wives of America. Caroline.

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Speaker 1: That's where the that's where the girls would belong under

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Speaker 1: the old paradigm, I should say, because as Helen Gunderson,

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Speaker 1: who is a farmer in northern Iowa told NPR not

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Speaker 1: too long ago, quote, girls could grow up to be

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Speaker 1: farmers wives, but for a woman to actually consider herself

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Speaker 1: to be a farmer or grow up to be a farmer,

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Speaker 1: that wasn't in the script. And she told in PR

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Speaker 1: about how when she was a young girl on her

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Speaker 1: family farm, her brothers were the ones who were being cultivated.

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Speaker 1: I am so sorry for all of these unintentional farming puns.

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Speaker 1: By the way, it's just gonna keep happening. They were

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Speaker 1: being cultivated for the later harvest of uh No. All

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Speaker 1: of her brothers were received all the attention from her

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Speaker 1: dad to make sure that they knew how to operate

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Speaker 1: and manage a farm from the more business side, whereas

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Speaker 1: little Helen was just so may you might grow up

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Speaker 1: one day and be a farmer's wife and you can

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Speaker 1: live off the land that way. Yeah, But she said

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Speaker 1: that when she talked to her dad about this, like, hey, dad,

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Speaker 1: you know years later when she came back and wanted

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Speaker 1: to be a farmer and wanted to have more of

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Speaker 1: a role out on the land, and she told her

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Speaker 1: to I was like, hey, you know, I really feel

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Speaker 1: like you put more of the focus on the boys.

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Speaker 1: Maybe is that a thing? And he was like, oh, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that sounds about right. So I mean, nobody's denying that

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Speaker 1: women were kind of being shuttled off into a different

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Speaker 1: direction the kitchen, but right exactly toward the kitchen or

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Speaker 1: the henhouse right so to speak, or literally literally, And

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Speaker 1: that was also exemplified in a Super Bowl commercial couple

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Speaker 1: of years ago which I remember, and the theme was

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Speaker 1: God Created a farmer, and it was this very uplifting,

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Speaker 1: beautifully shot commercial really celebrating the farmer. And as pointed

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Speaker 1: out in this USA Today article on the rise of

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Speaker 1: women in farming, almost all of the imagery in that

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Speaker 1: commercial was of men on tractors, men in the pickup trucks,

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Speaker 1: men on horseback. There were a couple of women here

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Speaker 1: and there, but overwhelmingly male farmers. Yeah, and talking to

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Speaker 1: USA Today Denise O'Brien, who has been farming with her

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Speaker 1: husband for just about forty years in Iowa, so that, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's great that there's this tribute to agriculture and that

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Speaker 1: we still respect our farmers and we want to pay

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Speaker 1: tribute to them. But on the other hand, she says,

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Speaker 1: they're missing more than half the population that's been involved

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Speaker 1: with it. And so that's kind of what we want

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Speaker 1: to talk about today in this episode. We want to

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Speaker 1: show you that the staff regarding women and farming are

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Speaker 1: way better than you might expect, and they've been getting better.

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Speaker 1: According to the u s d A u S farms

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Speaker 1: operated by women nearly tripled over the past three decades

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Speaker 1: from five percent in nineteen seventy four percent by two

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Speaker 1: thousand seven. Now, of course there is an issue of

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Speaker 1: of reporting um the U. S d A's agricultural SINCEUS

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Speaker 1: only started counting secondary farm operators including women in two

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Speaker 1: thousand two. And the whole issue there is that a

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Speaker 1: lot of smaller farms, you know, you might think of

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Speaker 1: the little organic farm in Vermont or something. A lot

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Speaker 1: of those smaller operations are run by women, by people

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Speaker 1: of color, and so those are the smaller farms tend

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Speaker 1: to be outside of the mainstream. But even since two

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Speaker 1: thousand two, when the U. S d A started including

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Speaker 1: those secondary farm operators, there has been a thirty percent

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Speaker 1: jump and women run farms, according to Lee Adcock, who's

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Speaker 1: the director of the Women Food and Agrica Culture Network.

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Speaker 1: Now there is a little bit of statistical conflict because

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Speaker 1: we also found a post over at the National Sustainable

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Speaker 1: Agriculture Commission which identified a six percent drop in women

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Speaker 1: as principal farm operators from two thousand seven to two

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Speaker 1: thousand twelve. But that was actually, in statistical speak, that

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Speaker 1: was more of an outlier because in the past few

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Speaker 1: years almost all the trend pieces have been all focused

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Speaker 1: on the rising role of women in agriculture. Not just

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Speaker 1: in the United States but also around the world, happening

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Speaker 1: at such a pace that some are referring to this

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Speaker 1: as the feminization of agriculture. Yeah, and a large part

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Speaker 1: of this so called feminization is the fact that as

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Speaker 1: society has become more geared towards urban centers, men are

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Speaker 1: leaving the homes and the farms in the rural areas

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Speaker 1: at a greater pace lead basically leaving women behind. And

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Speaker 1: so it's not necessarily that more women are setting out

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Speaker 1: to be farmers, although that is certainly the case in

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Speaker 1: many areas, but it also happens to be that they

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Speaker 1: are sort of left behind, so to speak. And because

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Speaker 1: of how unintentional this feminization of agriculture is, particularly in

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Speaker 1: more developing nations UH, the u N has actually put

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Speaker 1: a lot of focus on providing more resource for women farmers.

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Speaker 1: Um So, for instance, women farmers tend to own less

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Speaker 1: fertile plots of land, they tend to own fewer work animals,

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Speaker 1: and also just have less education in general. So with

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Speaker 1: this growing responsibility that women around the world are now

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Speaker 1: having in terms of the global food supply, the u

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Speaker 1: N and a lot of other NGOs are saying, hey, well,

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Speaker 1: we need to support them. We need to make sure

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Speaker 1: that they are on as equal footing with male farmers

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Speaker 1: as possible, because the land that they have and they're

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Speaker 1: tending and harvesting is very important to feed us. Exactly

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Speaker 1: what I mean that is talking about the global the

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Speaker 1: global farm the global farming industry. But I think that

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Speaker 1: exists here too. We read plenty of stuff that talks

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Speaker 1: about how quote unquote minority farmers, whether that is someone

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Speaker 1: who is a woman, a person of color, a queer farmer.

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Speaker 1: As we'll get into a little bit later. Um, a

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Speaker 1: lot of these people who aren't part of the big

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Speaker 1: industrial farm complex have a lot of problems getting that

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Speaker 1: important financial support, especially in terms of things like going

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Speaker 1: organic for instance, to be able to get that U

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Speaker 1: s d A funding. It's harder for minority farmers sort

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Speaker 1: of wherever you are. And can I just call out

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Speaker 1: a few of the international women farmers that we ran

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Speaker 1: across in our research, Caroline, Okay, So a lot of

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Speaker 1: this was coming from Modern Farmer, which recently won a

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Speaker 1: national magazine award. And I'll tell you what, Friends, after

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Speaker 1: spending a week on the Modern Farmer website, I want

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Speaker 1: to subscribe it's fantastic. It's a fantastic resource. And one

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Speaker 1: of the things we were looking at was this photo

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Speaker 1: essay of women farmers around the world, and among them

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Speaker 1: were the seaweed mamas of Zanzibar who harvest seaweed that

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Speaker 1: we probably enjoy in our farmers markets or at our

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Speaker 1: local sushi restaurant. Um also rural Nepalese women who make

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Speaker 1: up a majority of soul landowners in Nepal. And then

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Speaker 1: there was another post about the Yamagata Girls Farm in

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Speaker 1: Japan where it's this a group of young women who

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Speaker 1: have started up a farm in Japan. It's exactly what

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Speaker 1: it sounds like. Um. So it's really interesting to see

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Speaker 1: beyond our own backyards, how women are, you know, paving

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Speaker 1: their own way in agriculture. But then the question becomes

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Speaker 1: why more women, especially when we look back in the

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Speaker 1: United States and we see all of these trend pieces

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Speaker 1: reporting on those uh those USDA statistics saying hey, there

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Speaker 1: are more women running farms. What's going on? Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: like we touched on earlier, the census is counting more

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Speaker 1: of those small secondary farm operators, a lot of whom

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Speaker 1: are women, and most female run farms do tend to

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Speaker 1: be smaller and more diverse, and many are part of

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Speaker 1: the organic and local food movements. Most also have annual

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Speaker 1: sales under ten thousand dollars. And this is coming from

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Speaker 1: that same NPR interview with Lee Adcock, the director of

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Speaker 1: the Women Food and Agriculture Network, and she was saying

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Speaker 1: that by far the biggest percentage of that increase in

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Speaker 1: women farmers is women with small acreages making not a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of money, but making some money from agriculture

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Speaker 1: and often raising food or livestock for food. And she

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Speaker 1: says that they are really out there there, out there working,

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Speaker 1: and they are raising the food that we are eating.

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Speaker 1: But she says they're not getting into farming to run

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Speaker 1: quarter million dollar combines. They're out there raising food. And

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Speaker 1: this was something that Sonya Faruki also explored over at

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Speaker 1: The Atlantic in terms of gender and big agri business.

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Speaker 1: The Tyson Foods, for instance, the the ubiquitous chicken that

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Speaker 1: you might see in your grocery stores. She says that

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Speaker 1: women are scarce when it comes to running those large scale,

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Speaker 1: big factory farms, and using Tyson as an example, Tyson

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Speaker 1: Foods has one woman on its executive team. But at

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Speaker 1: the same time, Faruki says, it's not that surprising to

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Speaker 1: not see that many women, particularly in the leadership there

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Speaker 1: might be working in the factories, but not many women

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Speaker 1: in the leadership of agribusiness, because that's usually not where

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Speaker 1: our interests lies when it comes to farming. We're far

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Speaker 1: more interested on a ridge, in these smaller, more sustainable,

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Speaker 1: slower kinds of food operations. Yeah, and she says that

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Speaker 1: when you look at four of the biggest multibillion dollar

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Speaker 1: factory farm corporations, women cumulatively constitute less than ten percent

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Speaker 1: of senior executives. And she's arguing in her article though,

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Speaker 1: that it would be only a good thing, only a

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Speaker 1: positive thing, to get more and more women on boards

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Speaker 1: on executive teams, because she argues that women have a

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Speaker 1: different perspective, that yes, we tend to want to be

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Speaker 1: part of the smaller, organic, you know, homegrown, more local operations,

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Speaker 1: but that our perspective on things like organic food, cage

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Speaker 1: free eggs, animal cruelty could help benefit the rest of

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Speaker 1: the industry. Yeah, and when it comes to those large

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Speaker 1: factory farms, that's something that we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: a little bit more in our next podcast this week,

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Speaker 1: which is all about Dora Puerta, a woman who took

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Speaker 1: on directly some of those big farms out in California. UM.

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Speaker 1: But looking back at those women farmers UM. The rise

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Speaker 1: of farmers markets, local local farmers markets, which is something

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Speaker 1: that we've seen here where we live in Atlanta, has

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Speaker 1: been highly attractive for female producers. C says, working with

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Speaker 1: farm to table restaurants, the entire slow food movement has

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Speaker 1: been really really attractive UM to newer women farmers coming

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Speaker 1: into the fold. And there's also just in general more

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Speaker 1: opportunity by virtue, for instance of farmland family farmland changing

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Speaker 1: hands as baby boomers age. Yeah, and just the fact

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Speaker 1: that it'll it's going to eventually start to be less

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Speaker 1: weird in the public imagination that a woman could run

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Speaker 1: a big farm and sit on a tractor and have

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Speaker 1: it not be a big deal. And so maybe people

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Speaker 1: like Helen Gunderson and her family it won't be such

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Speaker 1: a thing of like, well, we're definitely passing this down

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Speaker 1: just to the sons, and the daughter can go find

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Speaker 1: something else to do. Old McDonald is going to become

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Speaker 1: old ms donald. Huh, that's right, And and Ms McDonald

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Speaker 1: we'll have the chance to get in on this because

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Speaker 1: according to USA today, there are about two hundred million

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Speaker 1: plus acres of farmland in the US that will change

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Speaker 1: hands by and there's a real potential for women to

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Speaker 1: end up owning half of that land. Yeah, and that's

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Speaker 1: why you're seeing more and more women focused groups emerging

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Speaker 1: like Women Food and Agriculture Network and a smaller operations

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Speaker 1: like Annie's Project that directly serve women interested in farming

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Speaker 1: to teach them not only how to grow crops, but

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Speaker 1: also how to manage a farm business. And globally too,

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Speaker 1: we see organizations like Landessa and one Percent for Women

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Speaker 1: that also focus more on things like land use rights

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Speaker 1: and supporting those women in agriculture who might need more

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Speaker 1: of a leg up in the context of being in

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Speaker 1: a developing country. And you've got the issue too that

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Speaker 1: we've touched on about women's interests growing in farming, particularly

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Speaker 1: in sustainable agriculture, because traditionally women have been likelier to

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Speaker 1: control household diets themselves, so they maybe perhaps are more

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Speaker 1: likely to go in the direction of sustainability, in organic farming,

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Speaker 1: fewer pesticides, things like that. And when you look at

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Speaker 1: nonprofits who are focused on sustainable agriculture issues. Women compose

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Speaker 1: sixty one and a half percent of those employees and

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Speaker 1: of those organizations executive directors. And then there are also

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Speaker 1: the responses of women farmers themselves about what personally motivates

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Speaker 1: them to have to pursue this career and lifestyle that

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Speaker 1: isn't necessarily easy. And Audrey Mulcan, who is a photographer

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Speaker 1: who created the Female Farmer Project documenting women farmers across

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Speaker 1: the United States, posted on her like fan Facebook page

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Speaker 1: asking her followers what draws women to farming, and so

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Speaker 1: the responses included nurturing, a desire to set a good

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Speaker 1: ecological example for children, creativity, exhibiting strength, the fact that

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Speaker 1: women are natural feeders and cultivators, and also a desire

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Speaker 1: to make a difference. So there really does seem to

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Speaker 1: be for a lot of women and farming this connection

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Speaker 1: between themselves as women and how they see themselves in

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Speaker 1: that role, and that connection to the earth and to

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Speaker 1: being mothers and also to food production. But as we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about in the second half of the podcast,

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Speaker 1: for some women, farming is a feminist act as well.

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Speaker 1: So over bitch Alice Parker writes about the eco feminist movement.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps you've read about eco feminism and the links between

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Speaker 1: feminism womanhood, the traditional definition of that versus the definition

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Speaker 1: that we would perhaps be aspiring to as farmers. Um

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Speaker 1: And Parker writes about shopping at a farmer's market and

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Speaker 1: buying raw fermented sarakraut locally or direct from a farmer,

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Speaker 1: doing all of these things like knitting your own clothes,

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Speaker 1: riding your bicycle, cooking something simple from scratch. She talks

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Speaker 1: about them as feminist acts. It might not seem obvious,

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Speaker 1: they might seem small, like they're very unimportant personal acts,

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Speaker 1: but she says they oppose and unweave heartless systems of

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Speaker 1: oppression like factory farms and sweatshops. These oppressive systems, she writes,

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Speaker 1: carry the real prison walls, not your kitchen. And so

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Speaker 1: it is. It's that argument that a lot of people make,

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Speaker 1: whether it's about farming or something like the New domesticity movement,

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Speaker 1: that being a provider, being the person who's raising the food,

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Speaker 1: raising the livestock, knitting those hats, it doesn't have to

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Speaker 1: be an oppressive act. What's oppressive, a lot of these

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Speaker 1: people argue, is participating in a capitalist system that exploits workers. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and also many would viably argue poisons the land and

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Speaker 1: food as well through the use of things like pesticides.

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Speaker 1: And if you want to learn more about ecofeminism, we've

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Speaker 1: done an entire podcast all about that, So we're not

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Speaker 1: going to get into the nuts and bolts of it,

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Speaker 1: but you can find that podcast over at stuff Mom

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Speaker 1: Never Told You dot com. But we do want to

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Speaker 1: mention briefly the women's land movement of the nineteen seventies,

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Speaker 1: and that is women with a Y, because these were

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Speaker 1: radical feminists who formed separatist agricultural communities, including places like

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Speaker 1: Yellow Hammer and Woman Share, as a way to fully

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Speaker 1: liberate themselves from the patriarchy. And again, there is a

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Speaker 1: great piece on this in Modern Farmer, my new favorite magazine,

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Speaker 1: not even joking, and it was fascinating to see how

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Speaker 1: there was It was radical feminism and also lesbianism combined

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Speaker 1: with agriculture. Some call this a take back the Land movement,

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Speaker 1: where these women really firmly believed that they needed to

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Speaker 1: eradicate men from their lives completely, whether that's sexually or

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Speaker 1: whether that is in like in any way providing for

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Speaker 1: their livelihood. They were like, we don't need you, We're

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Speaker 1: just gonna We're gonna take back the land essentially. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: But unlike a lot of farms today, I think the

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Speaker 1: focus was more on the act of separating themselves from

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Speaker 1: men and the traditional system of being with men, depending

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Speaker 1: on men for providing, you know, of depending on those

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Speaker 1: big factory farms. The focus wasn't so much on the

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Speaker 1: actual farming itself, which I think is different from a

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Speaker 1: lot of today's farms, where the farmer identity sort of

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Speaker 1: comes first. In a lot of cases, well, it's more

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Speaker 1: about the food as politics rather than the the food

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Speaker 1: coming second to politics and personal politics. Although they did

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Speaker 1: have their own Indian magazines and newsletters like Country Women,

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Speaker 1: which I wish I could still subscribe. And while they

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Speaker 1: were successful in demonstrating the fact that oh look, hey,

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Speaker 1: women can actually grow well some women, not me. Typically

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Speaker 1: women can actually grow plants, they can farm, they can

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Speaker 1: be successful growers. This movement, and this has been a

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Speaker 1: criticism of many parts of Second Way feminism. This movement

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Speaker 1: was mostly made up of white, middle class radical feminists,

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Speaker 1: and it highlights the racial disparity that still to some

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Speaker 1: extent exists within local food and c s A and

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Speaker 1: the farmers market movements. Yeah, I mean these a lot

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Speaker 1: of these women who were part of the Land Movement

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Speaker 1: met in liberal arts colleges. For instance. You're coming from

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Speaker 1: a privileged position when you in the background of say cushi,

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Speaker 1: you're sort of higher education context. Separate yourself willfully and

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Speaker 1: pursue this kind of lifestyle, which which will directly contrast

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Speaker 1: actually what we're going to talk about in our next

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Speaker 1: podcast with Dolora Suerta and the Chicano civil rights movement

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Speaker 1: happening in California around the same time. But when you

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Speaker 1: look at your local C. S A today, when you

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Speaker 1: go to your local farmers market today, there are lots

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Speaker 1: of questions that are being raised about who those farmers

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Speaker 1: markets and that wonderful organic sustainable agriculture is feeding. Because

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Speaker 1: if you look at lower income areas and areas that

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Speaker 1: might have higher concentrations of people of color, they're off

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Speaker 1: in food deserts. They don't have as much access, and

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Speaker 1: the food that we're talking about is often more expensive.

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Speaker 1: It's usually too expensive for me, Caroline, and it is

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Speaker 1: important to bring up these disparities that exist within things

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Speaker 1: like the organic food movement, within the farmers market movement

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Speaker 1: and the rise and farmers market popularity. But side note

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Speaker 1: fun fact to Schegee professor Dr book Or T. Watley's

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Speaker 1: pick your Own Farms and clientele membership Club's idea in

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Speaker 1: the early nineteen eighties was really what laid the groundwork

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Speaker 1: for c S a S. Though credit is usually attributed

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Speaker 1: to other people. Yeah, we read about that in Mother

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Speaker 1: Earth News and we wanted to mention it just because

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Speaker 1: it is an example of often the erasure of farmers

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Speaker 1: of color, which is what we wanted to talk about

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Speaker 1: as well, because black farmers make up just about two

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Speaker 1: percent of the total farming population. And when it comes

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Speaker 1: to agriculture and people of color and we're talking about

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Speaker 1: the United States, no big surprise that there's been a

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Speaker 1: lot of structural racism embedded within the industries. I mean,

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Speaker 1: going back even pre slavery, just to the days of

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Speaker 1: out and outland theft from Native Americans taking their farmland,

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Speaker 1: to then slavery and then share cropping, and then today

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Speaker 1: with these massive agribusinesses and its reliance on immigrant labor,

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Speaker 1: often cheap and exploited immigrant labor, which again we'll get

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Speaker 1: way more into in our next episode. But so you

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Speaker 1: can understand then how it's sort of a complicated issue

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Speaker 1: sometimes when people of color want to come back and

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Speaker 1: reclaim that land because it's so deeply embedded. Our country's

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Speaker 1: relationship with people of color and agriculture is so deeply embedded. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's been something that families have tried to climb out of,

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Speaker 1: and so for some people today it would seem regressive

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Speaker 1: to then want to go back and farm. And in fact,

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Speaker 1: I mean the relationship between farmers of color in the U. S.

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Speaker 1: Government is still a testy one because many have filed

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Speaker 1: civil suits against the U. S. D A but receiving

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Speaker 1: less government funding compared to white farmers. So there are

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Speaker 1: still questions of discrimination. And then when we talk about

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Speaker 1: women farmers of color, who we have layers of discrimination

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Speaker 1: upon layers of discrimination. Yeah. But it's interesting though that

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Speaker 1: a greater proportion of women of color operate farms than

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Speaker 1: do white women, because if you look back to stats

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Speaker 1: from fourteen percent of female principal farm operators were African

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Speaker 1: American versus twenty percent of them being Asian and thirty

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Speaker 1: percent were Native American, compared toent of female principal farm

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Speaker 1: operators who were white in twenty twelve and because of

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Speaker 1: you know, the existence of this diversity, but at the

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Speaker 1: same time still going back to our collective idea of

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Speaker 1: what a farmer looks like. It's old McDonald. It's usually

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Speaker 1: an older white gentleman. Or the pitchfork and a plaid

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Speaker 1: shirt and overalls, a little straw hat, right, a nontractor.

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Speaker 1: Natasha Bowen's a k A Brown Girl farming started blogging

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Speaker 1: about diversity and farming and also started something called the

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Speaker 1: Color of Food Project to document the lives and the

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Speaker 1: crops of farmers of color around the United States. Yeah,

432
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 1: this was really interesting looking at women who, like you

433
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: said Kristen, felt almost compelled to leave rural areas, especially

434
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 1: in the Southeast, to leave those rural areas, leave that

435
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 1: history that is so the racial aspects intertwined with agriculture,

436
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,120
Speaker 1: to leave that all behind. And then how when they

437
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,719
Speaker 1: got older they realized, no, what I want to do

438
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 1: is go back to the land, whether it's to whether

439
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 1: it's a political statement, or whether it's to really just

440
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,639
Speaker 1: take care of my family, your community. Like the example

441
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 1: of the woman in the Lower ninth Ward in New

442
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: Orleans starting a garden to feed that community, yeah, And

443
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 1: if you look at Natasha bow and herself, she has

444
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: a really interesting take on farming and femininity because she

445
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 1: says that I've personally never felt more like a woman

446
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 1: then the first time I dug my hands into the soil.

447
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 1: And that's a statement that may not align with what

448
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: society defines as feminine getting our hands dirty, writing tractors,

449
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 1: hurting cattle. So affirming that feminine identity with the land

450
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 1: and finding that solidarity while out on the road for

451
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 1: the Color of Food was so important to me. And

452
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: I love that because you really can argue that either

453
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: way that farming is super traditionally feminine if we go

454
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 1: all the way back to hunter gatherers men hunting, maybe

455
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 1: women gathering and farming um or if you go all

456
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: the way to the other side and say that it's

457
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: it's totally unexpected, it's non traditional work for women well,

458
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: and for a lot of people, farming is radical as well.

459
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 1: A lot of what Bowen's has discovered and talked about

460
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 1: through the Color of Food project is the food justice movement,

461
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: that intersection of you know, providing this kind of healthy,

462
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: sustainable food for these communities that are usually not so

463
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: linked in with their local farmers markets UM and she

464
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 1: says that women are leading the food justice movement for

465
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: farm workers, and she calls out examples like the Coalition

466
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:42,479
Speaker 1: of Immokali Workers in Florida UM also women like Soru

467
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: Jerriaman of Roku United, the author of Behind the Kitchen

468
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: Door that talks about injustice of women working in the

469
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: food system's restaurant industry. She says, the impact is heavy

470
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 1: on every level from farm to table when it comes

471
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: to women in our overall all food system, from seed

472
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 1: to table. And we're also seeing a rise in organizations

473
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: like Southeastern African American Farmers Organic Network that helped train

474
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: and mentor Black organic farmers. But it's interesting about that organization.

475
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: While it is certainly not focused solely on women, what

476
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 1: people within that organization have noticed is that more and

477
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 1: more people that they're dealing with are women. There women farmers,

478
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 1: especially in the Southeast, who are seeking more resources, basically

479
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 1: more kind of like friends in the farming business. And

480
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: in addition to farmers of color organizing getting more recognition

481
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: and really fighting for food justice and seeing those intersections

482
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: between identity politics and what is on our plates, we

483
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 1: also have to talk about LGBT farmers who are another

484
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: group challenging the status quo of who can be a

485
00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: farmer and what a farmer looks like. And this was

486
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: something that was really publicized on a more national level

487
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: by Jonah Mossburg's documentary out Here Yeah. The documentary highlighted

488
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 1: a queer grassroots farming movement around the country basically, and

489
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 1: for Mossburg, he said that living in a rural setting

490
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: really helped him to get more comfortable in his own skin.

491
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 1: He says that it made me feel strong, it made

492
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: me feel like everyone else around me, because Mossberg is

493
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: a trans farmer. And what's so interesting in listening to

494
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 1: not only what Mossburg has to say, but talking to

495
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: other farmers too, is that he makes it clear that

496
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: sort of the farming identity is almost above everything else,

497
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 1: and that when you are farming, when you've got your

498
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 1: hands in the dirt, when you're in touch with the

499
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 1: land or you know the animals that you're raising, it's

500
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,479
Speaker 1: almost kind of an equalizer. And so I love this

501
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: idea that we saw in a couple of different places

502
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 1: about how minority farmers, whether you're a woman, a woman

503
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 1: of color, an LGBT farmer, you're you're queering the farming system,

504
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 1: and that it's less about being gay, being lesbian, being

505
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: a trans farmer, and so much more about just being

506
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 1: almost an unexpected farmer, being an outsider who's working to

507
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: change that industry. Well, and we probably don't think of

508
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: rural America as necessarily being a safe space for lgbt

509
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: Q individuals, but Mossburg told Bitch magazine, and this was

510
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: also echoed by other farmers that you talked to in

511
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: out here. He said, quote, I think small scale sustainable

512
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: agriculture is inherently a logical and safe place for queer

513
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: people because it's a place where we can enact and

514
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: practice our queer values. And a lot of times in

515
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 1: those farming communities, it seems like from the people that

516
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: they've talked to, it's more about the connection to the

517
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 1: land and the animals and what you are harvesting that

518
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 1: often is more more of a focal point than who

519
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 1: you are, if that makes sense. But it seems like

520
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 1: the common thread through all of these different groups of

521
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: people is that they're bringing different perspectives to farming and

522
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 1: how important that is. I mean, just like when you

523
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: talk about getting different perspectives in any industry, in any

524
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: line of work, and and what a difference that different

525
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 1: types of people can make, especially when it comes to

526
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 1: our own health and the food that we put in

527
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 1: our bodies. Yeah, and I was really hardened to see

528
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: as well that the USA, the U. S d A

529
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: has been supporting that queering of the farm system. Is

530
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 1: Mossberg put it because it and the National Center for

531
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 1: Lesbian Rights now hosts a rural pride campaign, which is great.

532
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: And can I just mention my favorite quote from Mossburg

533
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: Um in which a bitch asked what the queerest vegetable

534
00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 1: was and he said, it's not rainbow charred. Everybody always

535
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 1: says rainbow chart. There is, in fact, um an lgbt

536
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: Q farming group out in the San Francisco Bay area

537
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: that I think it's called the rainbow Chart Coalition. Um.

538
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 1: He says it's not that he thinks it's silariac and

539
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 1: maybe you want to go buy it. Immediately I know

540
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: is description of cooking with it. I was like, oh man,

541
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: I need to get my boyfriend to cook with this.

542
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,320
Speaker 1: And what about there? There was also um a goat

543
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 1: farmer who runs a farm called like Stassy Nanny's or

544
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 1: something like that and makes incredible cheese. It was great

545
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 1: to just see all these profiles of you know, these

546
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 1: lgbt Q farmers, these farmers of color, these women farmers,

547
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 1: all of these people who are reclaiming land in their

548
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 1: own ways, and also considering, Caroline, how much it contrasts

549
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 1: my day today, highly urbanized life, and imagining what what

550
00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: a joy that pace must be like. I mean, they're

551
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: waking up a lot earlier than I am, I'm sure,

552
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: and farming is not easy by any means, um, But

553
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,399
Speaker 1: just to think about how much those people that we've

554
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 1: been talking about and reading about appreciate the land and

555
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: what they do so much, um economy me want to

556
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 1: go be a farmer, to be honest. Yeah, I mean

557
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,479
Speaker 1: there was there was an attitude kind of in in

558
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 1: several of the people we read about who were sort

559
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 1: of opting out of that that urban uh nine to

560
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: five lifestyle, who were pursuing something different, whether it was

561
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 1: for political reasons or purely personal wanting to get back

562
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 1: in touch with them more quote unquote a more natural

563
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: way of living, of of living off the land, and

564
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 1: just just fascinating to see how that idea of what

565
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:58,240
Speaker 1: a farmer looks like is absolutely changing. So I really

566
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 1: hope there are some farmers listening. Urban farmers, community gardeners.

567
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 1: I don't care if you can grow plants. Hey, you're

568
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: a farmer in our book. We want to hear from

569
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 1: you though. Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com

570
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 1: is our email address, um and any thoughts on sustainable agriculture,

571
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: food deserts, food justice and this idea of queering our

572
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: food system. Let us know all of your thoughts. Mom

573
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: stuff at how stuff works dot com again is our

574
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: email address. You can also tweet us at mom stuff

575
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 1: podcasts or messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple

576
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: of messages to share with you when we come right

577
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 1: back from a quick break. And now back to the show.

578
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:43,839
Speaker 1: So I have a letter here about our episode on

579
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: passive aggressive behavior. And you know, in the episode, we

580
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 1: pointed out that the stereotype is that for women are

581
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 1: passive aggressive than men, that it's totally a woman thing,

582
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: but that in reality it's way more of a kind

583
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 1: of fifty split. And so we have a letter here

584
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 1: from Brittany kind of talking about that. She says just

585
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: wanted to stay a great job on the passive aggressive

586
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 1: episode of the podcast. When I first saw the title,

587
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: I thought, oh, yeah, I definitely think it's more gendered

588
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 1: towards females, But as you discussed it, I actually felt

589
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 1: like my husband fit a lot of these categories, but

590
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 1: in different ways. I can't believe the term oh, I'm

591
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:27,240
Speaker 1: only kidding never came up. We've had so many conversations

592
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 1: about this in my relationship. I feel like my husband

593
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 1: is constantly teasing or giving smart slash harsh remarks in

594
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: the name of humor, and now I'm wondering if that's

595
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 1: just his version of being passive aggressive. For what it's worth,

596
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 1: he claims it's a remnant of his time in the military,

597
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: which ties him perfectly to the beginning of that episode.

598
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 1: I think girl on girl passive aggressiveness maybe more common

599
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,800
Speaker 1: than male on male passive aggression, but I would argue

600
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: that when it comes to straight cis gender relationships between

601
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 1: males and females, both platonic and roman antic, they're equally

602
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 1: full of passive aggressiveness on both sides, even if it

603
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: displays differently, perhaps because of ingrained beliefs and physical power.

604
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: Descript and sees question Mark. Thanks for the podcast and

605
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 1: thanks for all you do, and thank you Brittany. Well, Caroline.

606
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 1: I have a letter here also from a Brittany, and

607
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:24,840
Speaker 1: it's on our O c D podcast, UM and Brittany writes,

608
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 1: I wanted to share my youngest brother's story. He was

609
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 1: completely quote normal as a young child, and suddenly, when

610
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 1: he was about thirteen or fourteen, he began to exhibit intense,

611
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: typically O c D like symptoms. He washed his hands

612
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 1: to the point that they cracked in blood. He would

613
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 1: only use one bathroom out of the four in my

614
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 1: parents home because he felt that was the only clean one,

615
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: even though my parents got the very clean house. After

616
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 1: taking him to the therapist for months with no results

617
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 1: and in fact worsening symptoms, my frustrated mom resorted to

618
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 1: researching his symptoms for self and came across a rare

619
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:07,320
Speaker 1: syndrome called PANDOUS, which stands for pediatric autoimmune neuropsychiatric disorders

620
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:11,919
Speaker 1: associated with streptococcal infections. Basically, it's a mouthful that means

621
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 1: kids who have had strepped sometimes develop an autoimmune reaction

622
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 1: to the bacteria, which causes their immune system to begin

623
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 1: attacking their brains, leading to symptoms that can look like

624
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 1: O c D or other psychiatric disorders. It turns out

625
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 1: that the existence of pandas is not agreed upon in

626
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 1: the medical community, and my brother's pediatrician wouldn't take my

627
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:35,720
Speaker 1: mother's inquiry about it seriously. My mom didn't give up there, however,

628
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 1: and went to locate an immunologists slash PANDAS specialist a

629
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 1: few hours away. In one visit, the specialists confirmed my

630
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: brother's diagnosis as PANDAS rather than true O c D.

631
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,359
Speaker 1: He was prescribed a heavy round of antibiotics to kill

632
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: off the strep bacteria. Within a week of taking the antibiotics,

633
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 1: my brother's symptoms were noticeably improved, and within a month

634
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: he was back to normal. I just wanted to share

635
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 1: this in case it might be helpful to other listeners,

636
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 1: especially since pandist can mask itself as O c D,

637
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 1: but is in fact very rare and hard to diagnose.

638
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 1: So thanks for the heads of Brittany, and thanks to

639
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: everybody who's written into us. Mom steven House. Stuff works

640
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 1: dot Com is where you can send us your letters

641
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: and links to all of our social media as well

642
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 1: as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts, including this

643
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 1: one with our sources, so you can see all of

644
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 1: those modern farmer articles I am ow obsessed with. Head

645
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 1: on over to Stuff Mom Never told You dot com

646
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 1: for moral this, and thousands of other topics. Is it

647
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com