Speaker 1: On the Dog Cast, the questions asked if movies have
Speaker 1: women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy zef invest start
Speaker 1: changing it with the beck Del Cast. Hey, Caitlin, Yes, Jamie,
Speaker 1: fasten your seatbelt. It's gonna be a bumpy podcast. Honey.
Speaker 1: Now that's the level of writing that gets you nominated
Speaker 1: for an oscar. Wow. I wasn't expecting that, Jamie. You
Speaker 1: didn't see the twist coming, did you? You thought I
Speaker 1: was gonna say ride. I know it didn't night, No night.
Speaker 1: You thought I was gonna say night. Oh, it is
Speaker 1: a bumpy night because she's she's just saying like I'm
Speaker 1: going to get so fucked up and ruin everyone's night.
Speaker 1: And she's right. I've never heard someone promise that in
Speaker 1: advance and quite the same like it's it's oh, it's gorgeous, iconic.
Speaker 1: She's an icon. So welcome to the beck Dodcast. This
Speaker 1: is our movie podcast, where we in a lies the
Speaker 1: representation of women in movies, using the Bechtel test as
Speaker 1: a jumping off point. And that, of course, is a
Speaker 1: media metric created by cartoonist Ellison Bechtel sometimes called the
Speaker 1: Bechtel Wallace test, and it requires that two female identifying
Speaker 1: characters who have names they have to speak to each other,
Speaker 1: and that conversation has to be about something other than
Speaker 1: a man. For instance, ruining each other's lives is a
Speaker 1: topic that passes handily. I'm so excited to be covering
Speaker 1: this movie today. We do not very frequently cover movies
Speaker 1: of this era, but it is a pretty common request
Speaker 1: as far as older movies go. It's one of my faves.
Speaker 1: I'm we're covering All About Eve today. We are, and
Speaker 1: we have a special guest where again we're still in
Speaker 1: the quarantine, but we're all videoing in from different locations.
Speaker 1: I don't remember life before this anymore. Who does um?
Speaker 1: But we're very excited for our guest today. She is
Speaker 1: an amazing comedian and director. It's Sara June. Hello, Wow,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for having me. Oh, it's our pleasure.
Speaker 1: It is tough to be on zoom, but thank you
Speaker 1: so much for continuing to do this podcast. Oh you know,
Speaker 1: what else are we going to do right now? What
Speaker 1: is your history in relationship with the movie All About Eve?
Speaker 1: I probably first watched All About Eve when I was
Speaker 1: in high school and I was in this phase where
Speaker 1: I found out you could get DVDs from the library, um,
Speaker 1: and my library had a great, great DVD selection. So
Speaker 1: I watched a lot of movies that were really good
Speaker 1: that I did not understand because I was a child.
Speaker 1: And then I watched some movies that were really good
Speaker 1: that I did understand even though I was a child.
Speaker 1: And one of those movies it was all about Eve. Baby,
Speaker 1: this is like a good movie to first see when
Speaker 1: you're a teenager. I feel like it hits like and
Speaker 1: it probably I would guess like hits different at different
Speaker 1: stages of life too. So it also informed like everything
Speaker 1: I thought I knew about the theater. I was like,
Speaker 1: the theater is crazy, sexy, dangerous, British, right, and they
Speaker 1: hate television. I like, I I think that, like, I mean,
Speaker 1: you're always supposed to think that Eve is like pure evil.
Speaker 1: But my first viewing of this, I do remember being like,
Speaker 1: even he's got a good head on her shoulders, she's
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like I I always love Margo to
Speaker 1: death forever, but I didn't have as much um empathy
Speaker 1: for her the first time as I do ten years on.
Speaker 1: I am now closer to Margot's age than Eve's age,
Speaker 1: so I'm like Eve, that slimy little rat. I'm Margot
Speaker 1: is single white female. There it's it's yeah, yeah. This
Speaker 1: movie came out both before Single White Female and before
Speaker 1: Mean Girls, So if you need modern references, those are them.
Speaker 1: It and the Favorite. I think the Favorite is like
Speaker 1: I have I have some One of the writers of
Speaker 1: The Favorite was like, yeah, this is like a lot.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of All about even then. I remember
Speaker 1: I read that interview where they were like, it's like
Speaker 1: if all about Eve was um, and then there was.
Speaker 1: It was also based on like a sorry I'm getting
Speaker 1: off topic, but it was also based on an actual
Speaker 1: historical event, which was the Queen making this random made
Speaker 1: attendant of hers her the purser, just like out of nowhere.
Speaker 1: Pretty cool, pretty cool stuff. You love to hear it,
Speaker 1: love to hear it, all right. So yeah, that's my
Speaker 1: history with All About Nice Jamie, what's your history. I
Speaker 1: love this movie a lot. I think I saw it.
Speaker 1: I think I probably This probably is a movie I
Speaker 1: saw like my freshman year in college. This seems like
Speaker 1: around the correct time to have seen this movie. Um,
Speaker 1: that's a guest. But I've seen this movie many times now.
Speaker 1: It's weird. I haven't like thought about it from a
Speaker 1: I mean it's weird. It's like, you can't think about
Speaker 1: this movie from a feminist standpoint, which is kind of
Speaker 1: great because it's like mostly women interacting with each other,
Speaker 1: so you cannot. But this was my first time watching
Speaker 1: it with like a Bechtel whatever helmet. Is it a
Speaker 1: helmet that we wear? Um, it's with that I mean
Speaker 1: in the in the quarantine, Yes, but yeah, it's one
Speaker 1: of It's one of my favorite, um, I think, probably
Speaker 1: one of my favorite movies ever, but definitely one of
Speaker 1: my favorite older movies. I love. I was like when
Speaker 1: I was a kid, I was like a TCM head
Speaker 1: and Judy Garland and Bettie Davis were like my gals.
Speaker 1: I love Betty Davis and her performance and this is
Speaker 1: fucking ink. I mean, everyone's performance in this is great.
Speaker 1: I love this movie. It's so weird because they were like, Okay,
Speaker 1: the fact that you know someone is so powerful that
Speaker 1: they can just be cruel and awful to everyone is
Speaker 1: not a good thing. But I do like it when
Speaker 1: it's Bettie Davis doing it. When Betty Davis is cruel
Speaker 1: and terrible to everyone she's ever met. I love it.
Speaker 1: I think it's cool. Caitlin, what's your history with this movie?
Speaker 1: I too saw it, probably run freshman year when I
Speaker 1: was in you know, I was a starry eyed film student,
Speaker 1: much like Eve Harrington, you know, trying to just consume
Speaker 1: as much cinema as I could. And what that meant
Speaker 1: for me was I would watch like three DVDs that
Speaker 1: I borrowed from the library a day and absorb none
Speaker 1: of literally okay, okay, you're not even literally updated. Eve,
Speaker 1: like two thousands are Eve would be watching DVDs. She
Speaker 1: would be like, I'm going to figure this out, right, right, right.
Speaker 1: So this is one of those movies that I had
Speaker 1: on in the background and didn't apparently retain anything about it,
Speaker 1: which is a shame because it's a really good movie
Speaker 1: and there's lots to talk about it. I am very
Speaker 1: excited to talk about it. The dialogue in this movie
Speaker 1: is so smart and sharp and tight and clever and
Speaker 1: so well written. It's incredible. Manko It's yeah, he got
Speaker 1: it's it's I mean, there's there's Well, we'll talk about
Speaker 1: the short comings of the story at lark, but like
Speaker 1: the fucking script is it's so good. It's like every
Speaker 1: character is so distinct, even like smaller characters that normally
Speaker 1: I feel like movies of any era would just kind
Speaker 1: of make a throw away. Like even Marilyn Monrose character
Speaker 1: has like a small arc and she says funny stuff
Speaker 1: and like it's just so good. I love it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's dive into the recap. The movie starts with a
Speaker 1: young woman named Eve Harrington. That's and Baxter. She is
Speaker 1: a big fan of the theata and an even bigger
Speaker 1: fan of an actress named Margot Channing. And that is
Speaker 1: our queen Betty Davis, who is you know, a star
Speaker 1: of the stage. And one night Karen Richards that's a
Speaker 1: friend of Margot's. They are friends because her husband, her husband,
Speaker 1: um Lloyd Richards, is the playwright of the production that
Speaker 1: Margot is currently starring in. But this woman, Karen, sees
Speaker 1: Eve outside of the theater and had noticed her. They're
Speaker 1: like waiting night after night, so she decides to invite
Speaker 1: her in and introduce her to Margot, right, which is like, okay,
Speaker 1: this is the first act of kindness from a woman
Speaker 1: to a woman in the movie, And she'll live to
Speaker 1: regret it. I love that's like she's like, oh, let
Speaker 1: me do something nice, and then the movie is like,
Speaker 1: the biggest mistake you ruin everyone's lives. Yeah, let this
Speaker 1: be a lesson. Women shouldn't be nice to each other,
Speaker 1: never mix with the commoners. Right that too. It's a
Speaker 1: classes in trench coach shall enter, so they invite her in.
Speaker 1: They're all chatting and Eve tells them her story about
Speaker 1: how she came to love the theater, about how she
Speaker 1: had this husband who died in the war, and how
Speaker 1: she started following Margot's career, and Margot is very smitten
Speaker 1: by all of this and by Eve, and she has
Speaker 1: Eve move into her house and start working for her
Speaker 1: as an assistant more or less, I will say, a
Speaker 1: second assistant. She already has an assistant, right Bertie, Oh
Speaker 1: my god, Bertie is like the feminist icon of icon
Speaker 1: Bertie coon in right, because it isn't like Bertie like
Speaker 1: the main she's her main gal. And then Eve is, yeah,
Speaker 1: like she's doing it. Doesn't even like Eve is doing
Speaker 1: more than she's asked. She's Eve is acting the way
Speaker 1: we're told as eighteen year old interns that you should
Speaker 1: ask like, they're like, invent tasks for yourself, make yourself
Speaker 1: seem useful even if you're not doing shit, And that's
Speaker 1: kind of what she's doing A million percent, yes, And
Speaker 1: this is kind of the start of her beginning to
Speaker 1: cross some boundaries in her relationship it with Margot. And
Speaker 1: then after that we see Eve maybe kind of flirting
Speaker 1: with Margot's boyfriend, Bill Sampson, who Betty Davis was having
Speaker 1: an affair with on set and would marry and was
Speaker 1: married to for ten years. Excuse me, Yeah, they got
Speaker 1: they like dumped their spouses at the time for each
Speaker 1: other and he was her last husband. I know. They
Speaker 1: have great chemistry too. It's like that that relationship is
Speaker 1: I mean stuff have isn't but but it's like, I mean,
Speaker 1: they got they got chemistry, you know what they do.
Speaker 1: He daddies her from the very first scene he does. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he dams her so hard and so immediately she's like,
Speaker 1: what do you do and he's like, let me tell
Speaker 1: you about the theater, kid like, and she just cowers.
Speaker 1: And that's after he has come into the room and
Speaker 1: called Margo like a trash heap or something like that.
Speaker 1: He's like, you look like shit, I have a flight
Speaker 1: in four or five minutes. It's like peak nineteen fifties writing.
Speaker 1: It's like peak black and white movie where they're like,
Speaker 1: what are you doing woman? You look like garbage and
Speaker 1: she's like, oh, garbage, pooh pooh. And then and then
Speaker 1: she just does what he says. But but yeah, and
Speaker 1: then he like ignores Eve a couple different times. I mean,
Speaker 1: these are like as close you can as you can
Speaker 1: get to being like, oh, that sucks for it. But like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, Eve is smart and honestly, when I
Speaker 1: saw that scene this time, I had never thought about
Speaker 1: this dynamic before. But the fact that he comes in
Speaker 1: immediately talks to Margo and only Margo, even though he's like,
Speaker 1: you look like should I have a flight? Let's go,
Speaker 1: and like sees the other girl, barely says hi to
Speaker 1: her and then fully only pays attention to Margo. I
Speaker 1: think is a smart guy who's in a relationship with
Speaker 1: a narcissist. That's a guy who's like, if I say
Speaker 1: hi to this other woman in the room, she will
Speaker 1: have my head. Yeah, I mean there I wonder, I wonder. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like their relationship is just like bizarre all around, but
Speaker 1: there's like watching that scene with Eve this I haven't
Speaker 1: seen this movie and maybe two years or so, but
Speaker 1: watching that scene, it's like, I feel like everyone has
Speaker 1: ben Eve in that situation to where just like someone
Speaker 1: more powerful than you walks into a room and it's like,
Speaker 1: who is this. Okay, great, anyways the other most powerful
Speaker 1: person in the room. I'm going to be mean to
Speaker 1: you and then leave and you're like oh yeah, and
Speaker 1: I'm talking to you, but also kind of performing for everybody.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, well, and then Margot's doing that too, to
Speaker 1: the point where Bertie has to be like this is
Speaker 1: making me physically ill. I'm leading I have to go
Speaker 1: into the bedroom. That's what I love because they're all
Speaker 1: doing this like you there, I know you that, And
Speaker 1: then she's just like, oh but brother, she's just doing
Speaker 1: like yeah, she's doing like a like old Timey Brooklyn
Speaker 1: like character actor bit in the middle of this Transatlantic
Speaker 1: accent scene, and you're just like, yeah, well, yeah, sure,
Speaker 1: this is what the world like, sparkling with sparkling wit.
Speaker 1: I'm like this Sparkling's amazing. And then Bertie is like
Speaker 1: want a load up bull crap and like she's right,
Speaker 1: She's the best. Bertie is amazing. She is and she
Speaker 1: I wish that she was like written out after whatever
Speaker 1: at the beginning of act too, But what can you do?
Speaker 1: When I was researching the production of this movie, they
Speaker 1: said that they had to cut like fifty pages from
Speaker 1: the script. So there was some Birdie that hit the
Speaker 1: cutting room floor. And originally she was supposed to Um,
Speaker 1: she was going to be instead of that girl. Wasn't
Speaker 1: like Phoebe. At the end, it's Birdie and she comes crown. Yeah. Um.
Speaker 1: So it's at this point in the story when Margot
Speaker 1: starts to get increasingly more and more annoyed with Eve
Speaker 1: because of all the boundaries she is crossing methodically. It's
Speaker 1: she's a master or manipulator. But we don't know that
Speaker 1: yet quite as as an audience. We're only starting to
Speaker 1: see hints of it. We start on the side of
Speaker 1: like everyone's calling Margot paranoid, and we're like, Margot is paranoid, right,
Speaker 1: but the tide will turn. Um. So, one night, right
Speaker 1: before a homecoming slash birthday party um that is being
Speaker 1: thrown for Bill, Margot and Bill have this big fight
Speaker 1: about Eve because Margot is insecure about her age and
Speaker 1: she's worried that um Eve, who is considerably younger than Margot,
Speaker 1: will replace Margot. And then cut to the party, we
Speaker 1: get that the famous line the fest in your seatbelts,
Speaker 1: it's going to be a bumpy night, and we're like,
Speaker 1: we're like, and then it is it. Yeah, she delivers
Speaker 1: on the promise. Oh yes, she gets wasted. My girl
Speaker 1: gets shit fish ship face. And then she still gives
Speaker 1: the most articulate, pithy put downs of the entire Like
Speaker 1: what everyone wishes they sounded like when they're blackout drunk
Speaker 1: is how she's That's how everyone feels like they are
Speaker 1: talking when they're bega mean drunk, but they're actually like
Speaker 1: throwing up. Do not say this to me. I am
Speaker 1: as wispy tinous. I'm like, I think I sound like
Speaker 1: this after five hundred white cloths, and I'm just like
Speaker 1: really cool but also like I don't care, but also
Speaker 1: leave me alone. I have to ask the DJ to
Speaker 1: play the same song five times in a row. I
Speaker 1: love the like and and the way that and this
Speaker 1: is also like the costume designs in this movie are
Speaker 1: edith head, so they're fucking amazing, and the way that
Speaker 1: they like the old Hollywood wood way to indicate that
Speaker 1: a woman is drunk is just like slide her sleeve
Speaker 1: off her shoulder and tussle her hair, and you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: she's wasted, and like holding up holding up very full
Speaker 1: Martini glass perfectly and never spilling it while being like
Speaker 1: knowing and like you know, slurring your retorts. She's a star.
Speaker 1: She's a star, right. And then Eve weasels her way
Speaker 1: into being Mark goes understudy, unbeknownst to Margot, And then
Speaker 1: there's this audition that happens with Marilyn Monroe's character, a
Speaker 1: young actress named Ms Caswell. Eve shows up instead and
Speaker 1: reads opposite her. In this audition, it turns out that
Speaker 1: Eve is an amazing actor who blows everybody away, including
Speaker 1: this theater critic named Addison DeWitt, which is another perfect
Speaker 1: old timey theater critic name. Right. Never has there actually
Speaker 1: been a person with a name like this. It's great. Yeah,
Speaker 1: his names you get it, You get what he does,
Speaker 1: You get what he's like. His name is DeWitt, do
Speaker 1: you guys get it? Maco Wit is like Maco with
Speaker 1: is like a stark and style jerking himself off, and
Speaker 1: it's like, ah, there it is de wit so Eve
Speaker 1: being awesome at acting makes Margo very jealous, and she
Speaker 1: shows up at the theater after this audition and she
Speaker 1: has this outburst. You know, Lloyd is like, you're a
Speaker 1: horrible actress. And then Bill literally compares, he like objectifies
Speaker 1: her to the point where he's like, you're a piano Look. Okay, wait,
Speaker 1: I will say this. He doesn't say you're a horrible actress.
Speaker 1: He says something almost worse, which is, you're too old
Speaker 1: to play the part that I wrote and that you've
Speaker 1: been playing for like at this point weeks months now,
Speaker 1: you know, just to say, like it's not that you're bad,
Speaker 1: you're just not young enough. I think I hate Lloyd
Speaker 1: the most out of everyone in this movie because Lloyd
Speaker 1: is just he's so infuriating to me. I feel like
Speaker 1: he kind of gets off like like he's made to
Speaker 1: so egotistical. Yeah, like I feel like this. Okay, So
Speaker 1: like men in this movie are like bad, but it's
Speaker 1: more it's written more that they're clueless rather than they
Speaker 1: are making the rules. But like Lloyd could write apart
Speaker 1: for Margot, that's her age. He just won't do it.
Speaker 1: He's acting like my hands are tied. I can only
Speaker 1: write about twenty year olds, and you're like, you have
Speaker 1: the power to not do that. I hate Lloyd so much. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Also like, if you know, if you are lucky enough
Speaker 1: to know what kind of an actor you're going to
Speaker 1: be working with, then you should write a part for
Speaker 1: that actor. You know, right, why would you not? Whatever?
Speaker 1: I hate Lloyd, Karen, Karen Defense Force. Karen can do better,
Speaker 1: for sure. Yeah, so he sucks. And then Bill is
Speaker 1: talking to Margot and he's like, you know, you're being paranoid.
Speaker 1: I love you, but this is the last straw. I
Speaker 1: gotta say goodbye, and then he leaves her, which I
Speaker 1: think is healthy. I do think he's kind of like acting.
Speaker 1: I like Bill some of the time. A lot of
Speaker 1: the time he does, guess light her quite a bit,
Speaker 1: or at least he does calls her paranoid without um
Speaker 1: ever really truly listening to her and her feelings. So
Speaker 1: I think that Bill is like cut too much slack.
Speaker 1: But but I do agree Sara that him getting out
Speaker 1: of their relationship when it becomes that volatile. I don't
Speaker 1: really fault him for it, and neither does Margo. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like it's like, oh, yeah, that's a good boundary
Speaker 1: to have, you know, like they're not married, you know,
Speaker 1: and he's like, I I agree that he's like he
Speaker 1: calls her paranoid, which is like not okay, But at
Speaker 1: that point, like when somebody is like lying to you
Speaker 1: as much as Margot does and refusing to listen to
Speaker 1: you as much as you're refusing to listen to them,
Speaker 1: it's like, all right, I'm out. I don't know, it's yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a Well, we'll talk about Bill because I have
Speaker 1: like mixed feelings towards him, and I feel like maybe
Speaker 1: I cut him too much slack because I really liked
Speaker 1: the actor and the fact that he and Betty Davis
Speaker 1: got married. Oh well, we'll get there. Also, he like
Speaker 1: violently throws Margo down on a bed, which is obviously
Speaker 1: not okay, but like pretty typical for an old Hollywood
Speaker 1: film to see a man being violent towards women, Like
Speaker 1: we also see Addison slap Eve in the face, you know,
Speaker 1: which is very yikes. But anyway, um, so we're at
Speaker 1: the point where you know, Margot's boyfriend has left, her
Speaker 1: friends are upset with her, and then a short time later,
Speaker 1: when Margot is returning home from a weekend getaway with
Speaker 1: Karen and Lloyd. Some car trouble causes her to miss
Speaker 1: her show that night, and it's implied that Karen drained
Speaker 1: the gas out of the tank of the car on
Speaker 1: purpose so that Margot would miss the show to help E. So,
Speaker 1: with Margot being gone, Eve, her understudy, steps in, performs
Speaker 1: the part and dazzles the crowd. And wouldn't you know it,
Speaker 1: a bunch of theater critics just happened to be at
Speaker 1: the show that night, and they're also all very impressed
Speaker 1: with Eve, including Addison do Wit. Yes. So, now that
Speaker 1: Eve is making her way into the spotlight, she tries
Speaker 1: to seduce Bill Sampson, but he's like, wait a minute,
Speaker 1: I'm still in love with Margot, and then he goes
Speaker 1: back to Margot. Karen has also forgiven Margot and feels
Speaker 1: super guilty about what she did to make her miss
Speaker 1: the performance. And then Addison DeWitt has written this review
Speaker 1: about how awesome Eve was in the play how awful
Speaker 1: Margot is, And in this review, Eve talks about how
Speaker 1: pathetic it is for older actresses to play parts for
Speaker 1: younger women and how you know older women are bitter
Speaker 1: and they don't want to support younger actresses. Then everyone's like, oh,
Speaker 1: I guess maybe Margot wasn't being paranoid right right, except
Speaker 1: Lloyd is still being a piece of ship because he's
Speaker 1: he defends Eve. I hate Lloyd. What's just horny? I
Speaker 1: hate him? Lloyd is horny and I also hate him.
Speaker 1: So Lloyd is defending Eve and he's like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: Eve claims that Addison put those words in her mouth.
Speaker 1: And then he's like, and what if Eve is in
Speaker 1: my new play performing the lead role of Cora and
Speaker 1: then his wife. His wife Karen is like, listen, Eve
Speaker 1: is a rat scumbag and you will not cast her
Speaker 1: in your play. Yeah. Then that night, when Margot, Bill, Karen,
Speaker 1: and Lloyd are out drinking some wine at a like
Speaker 1: rich people establishment, Eve is also there a club. The
Speaker 1: club in the club was it? What is it? Betty
Speaker 1: Davis is like, where the elite come to meet? You're like, yeah, good, sure, whatever,
Speaker 1: bit you are drunk again. Eve is also there and
Speaker 1: she sends over a note asking Karen to meet her
Speaker 1: in the ladies room, and she does very titanic make
Speaker 1: it count meet me by the clock, and then they
Speaker 1: actually go and have a really cool party below deck. No, Um,
Speaker 1: what happens instead is that Eve and Karen chat and
Speaker 1: Eve starts out by apologizing, but then her tone shifts
Speaker 1: and then she starts blackmailing Karen because and Baxter is
Speaker 1: so good in that. Yeah. She when she puts her
Speaker 1: cards on the table every time, it's just like because
Speaker 1: she knows that Karen has something to do with Margot
Speaker 1: missing the show that night. And it turns out all
Speaker 1: Eve once from Karen is for her to tell her husband,
Speaker 1: her husband, Lloyd, to cast Eve in his new play.
Speaker 1: And that apparently happens because we cut to Lloyd and
Speaker 1: Eve rehearsing for the play bill is directing it right,
Speaker 1: And then it seems like Eve is trying to get
Speaker 1: close to Lloyd and she's like, hey, Addison, did you
Speaker 1: know that Lloyd is going to leave Karen and that
Speaker 1: he and I are going to get married? And Addison's like, oh,
Speaker 1: actually no, that's not going to happen. You're not going
Speaker 1: to marry him because you belong to me. I know
Speaker 1: about your real past and others. It's so over dramatic
Speaker 1: it shouldn't work, and yet it does right, Like it's
Speaker 1: it's so much. So then he he blackmails her because
Speaker 1: it turns out she's been lying about a bunch of stuff.
Speaker 1: And then we cut to her accepting this award for
Speaker 1: her acting, but like everyone hates her. Margot is there,
Speaker 1: Karen is there. They're like this fucking asshole, and everyone
Speaker 1: else in the room is a very old man who
Speaker 1: is clapping heartily right, and they're just like, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: so good. And then Eve wins the award and and
Speaker 1: and Margot's mean to her one last time. Oh, and
Speaker 1: he gives a spee each where she thanks Karen and
Speaker 1: Lloyd and Margot and then they're just like a stony face.
Speaker 1: I love it. And then Eve goes home and a
Speaker 1: young woman who is obsessed with her, much like Eve
Speaker 1: was obsessed with Margot at the beginning of the movie.
Speaker 1: This young woman is in her house has like snuck
Speaker 1: it broke into her house. And then she's like, oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, Eve Harrington, I love you so much. You're
Speaker 1: so awesome. And we're like, oh no, the cycle is
Speaker 1: going to repeat itself. And I have so many thoughts
Speaker 1: on the ending. So that's the story. Let's take a
Speaker 1: quick break and then we will come right back to
Speaker 1: discuss Can we start by talking about the ending? Is
Speaker 1: that too Is that too much? Let's do it? Okay.
Speaker 1: So this was the first time I had really given
Speaker 1: some critical thought to the ending of the movie, because
Speaker 1: I feel like greenplay wise, it's great because he brings
Speaker 1: you all the way back to one and the quote
Speaker 1: unquote villain of the movie is getting her come up,
Speaker 1: and and it's like I never really questioned it before.
Speaker 1: But my main criticism of this movie that I still
Speaker 1: am gonna love forever and ever. But I think my
Speaker 1: main criticism of it is that like that ending heavily
Speaker 1: implies that, like the problem the whole time is eve
Speaker 1: and it's it's ambitious women. Ambitious women are the problem,
Speaker 1: and ambitious and women are like naturally inclined to be
Speaker 1: catty towards one another and to be vicious towards one another.
Speaker 1: And it's not like there this movie does not really
Speaker 1: interrogate the system that they are put in, in the
Speaker 1: positions they're put in, and the fact that they are
Speaker 1: told they can't be useful after a certain age, and
Speaker 1: the fact that there's only so many stars that can
Speaker 1: exist that are women. So one does have to displace
Speaker 1: another just because of the way it's been set up.
Speaker 1: And so at the end, by having that other women
Speaker 1: come for Eve and you're like, oh, he's gonna get
Speaker 1: what's coming to her. It's like, but you know, for
Speaker 1: for all the men of the story, I mean, I
Speaker 1: think this is probably this is realistic for its time,
Speaker 1: But for all the men of the story, things stay
Speaker 1: status quo um and will for forever. Yeah, there's never
Speaker 1: the implication that like Lloyd or Bill our rivals, right,
Speaker 1: they're friends, they're like BFFs. Yeah, they're like great collaborators
Speaker 1: and close friends. I mean, I guess the difference is
Speaker 1: one is a writer and one is a director. But seriously,
Speaker 1: it's it's still not I mean, and this is one
Speaker 1: really great thing about the movie. We don't hear almost
Speaker 1: anything about those guys and their careers outside of this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: which is good because it's like who care, Like they're
Speaker 1: they're not the interesting. I didn't even think of that. Like,
Speaker 1: we know Bill goes to direct a movie, but we
Speaker 1: don't know if the movie is good or anything. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we don't know anything about that movie. Yeah, we don't
Speaker 1: even know what it's about. It doesn't matter because Margot's
Speaker 1: not in it, so it doesn't matter because she's the
Speaker 1: center of the universe. It's very clear, I mean, and
Speaker 1: it's like I don't even really want to knock the
Speaker 1: writing too much for creating this reality, because it was
Speaker 1: very reflective of the time, and still now it's like
Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter how good the stuff they do is.
Speaker 1: We don't actually know if Floyd is a good writer,
Speaker 1: but like, the world is always going to make enough
Speaker 1: space for them, so it doesn't even like they don't
Speaker 1: even have to be good. The only male character I
Speaker 1: want to know more about is Addison. I would watch
Speaker 1: a fucking franchise about Addison DeWitt, just like Frasier. Yes
Speaker 1: he really is. What if he was Frasier's No, he's
Speaker 1: not Fraser's dad, that's Martin. I would buy him as
Speaker 1: one of Frasier's cousins for sure. I can't believe I
Speaker 1: just insulted Martin Crane like that. I'm so sorry, but yeah,
Speaker 1: come on, but yeah, this was the first time I
Speaker 1: ever thought of the ending as like, I mean, it
Speaker 1: is like it it's just kind of it's the desis
Speaker 1: statement of the movie of like this thing that's happening
Speaker 1: with these women as cyclical, which might be true, but
Speaker 1: it doesn't examine really why that is. I mean, I
Speaker 1: want to describe the literal final shot, which is the
Speaker 1: young woman Phoebe, the young woman who we are meant
Speaker 1: to inter It is going to replace Eve wearing Eve's
Speaker 1: cape and holding her award and looking at herself in
Speaker 1: the mirror and like pretending that she's accepting the award,
Speaker 1: and then it's her cape and her crown, and um,
Speaker 1: Eve has this three way mirror so that you see
Speaker 1: all these endless rows of Phoebe's accepting the award and bowing.
Speaker 1: It's a beautiful shot and you might as well just
Speaker 1: write in text on the screen such is Woman, because
Speaker 1: it's like, look at this endless literally endless, infinite cycle
Speaker 1: of not only identical but disposable. Yeah, am I reading
Speaker 1: too much into this? I think that that is what
Speaker 1: the intention is. Probably it's I love this movie. Okay,
Speaker 1: that's what I had to say. That's what I had
Speaker 1: to say about the ending. I just have never thought
Speaker 1: of it from from that angle before. Yeah, it's it's
Speaker 1: pretty funny because like she the girl, Phoebe is like, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm president of the Eve Harrington fan club and Eve's
Speaker 1: like yeah, okay, She's at no point she like how
Speaker 1: did you get in here? But but it's it is
Speaker 1: cool that, I mean, Eve gets so defensive right away
Speaker 1: when that was her I mean a year ago. How
Speaker 1: much time passes in this movie, It's unclear, it's less.
Speaker 1: I think some of the voiceover. The voiceover is like, wow,
Speaker 1: it was just last April or last October, like it's
Speaker 1: it implies that it's only been like I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's been like kind of a short amount of time.
Speaker 1: I mean, you got a handed to Eve. Um. Part
Speaker 1: of me wanted to interpret the ending as kind of
Speaker 1: like a cautionary tale of like this is what happens
Speaker 1: if you're a woman who exploits and tramples on other women.
Speaker 1: But you're right, Jamie, like, it's not fair that ambitious
Speaker 1: women are shown as being like the villains because and
Speaker 1: there's so much to talk about, but there's this theme
Speaker 1: that only pops up every so often in the movie.
Speaker 1: But with Margot, you have this powerful woman who has
Speaker 1: a solid career. She is very successful, but every once
Speaker 1: in a while she'll be like, well here's the thing. Though,
Speaker 1: a woman is not complete without a man. Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: a conversation towards the end when she and Bill have
Speaker 1: gotten engaged and she's like, I'm going to be a
Speaker 1: married woman and Lloyd's like, well, what does that have
Speaker 1: to do with anything? And Margot says, you know what
Speaker 1: it means, I've I'll finally have a life to live.
Speaker 1: I don't have to play parts I'm too old for
Speaker 1: just because I've got nothing to do with my nights.
Speaker 1: And it's like, oh my gosh, that's so bleak, Like
Speaker 1: I know, it's like, is that is that what you
Speaker 1: were doing? Right? It's so and it's like they're My
Speaker 1: understanding is that that attitude was kind of reflective of
Speaker 1: Betty Davis's feelings. She never had a desire to leave performing,
Speaker 1: but it like she also historically in her life had
Speaker 1: like would try to fill areas of her life through
Speaker 1: marriages and stuff like that, and like there, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I read a whole whole thing that was just like
Speaker 1: drawing comparisons from Betty Davis's life to Margot. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of one to one things. That part, Like that
Speaker 1: gave me a little bit of pause too. I don't
Speaker 1: know how to feel about it, because I do think
Speaker 1: that it ends up being maybe a little bit too
Speaker 1: far of like it's like a deeply heteronormative like, yeah,
Speaker 1: a woman is not a woman without him. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, we're like we're basically we're quoting the script
Speaker 1: here where she goes, you're not a woman if you
Speaker 1: don't have a husband. Essentially, Um, she says that you
Speaker 1: you can be a lot of things, but you're not
Speaker 1: a woman. So like, in one sense, she doesn't discount
Speaker 1: her accomplishments, but she doesn't see them as being compatible
Speaker 1: with her sex. And also and were you know, we
Speaker 1: assume her gender. You know, she's she's she's like, until
Speaker 1: you perform the heteronormativity of being a woman in a
Speaker 1: relationship with a man, you're not a woman. You're just
Speaker 1: like essentially a laborer, but like one without sex. You know,
Speaker 1: she's she's masculine eyes but also de sexualized. Heavy. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I totally very heavy, and and the the way that
Speaker 1: I mean. And and it's also like she decides to
Speaker 1: she's she's like full on Oprah and steadman. She's like,
Speaker 1: I don't want to marry you, like I love you,
Speaker 1: I don't want to marry you, which is a kind
Speaker 1: of like radical idea up until like pretty recently, um,
Speaker 1: and he couldn't handle it. And he ends up getting
Speaker 1: his way with that, And that's never really interrogated that much,
Speaker 1: and it's implied that her making that change of heart
Speaker 1: improves her life a lot. Is her kind of you know,
Speaker 1: conceding to his wishes. There is a little bit part
Speaker 1: of me where I feel like and I don't I
Speaker 1: don't want to give Manko it's more credit for thinking
Speaker 1: than he's actually doing. But he's a really good right
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I've kind of viewed part of
Speaker 1: that of like, Margot only has so many options in
Speaker 1: her time, even though she's the most powerful, as powerful
Speaker 1: as a woman could be in this time, she only
Speaker 1: has so many alternatives to being and actress. And it
Speaker 1: doesn't even seem like she doesn't want to be an actress.
Speaker 1: She just doesn't want to put put up with all
Speaker 1: the bullshit that she's going to be subjected to as
Speaker 1: she gets older. And so I there's a way I
Speaker 1: can see it. I still don't like the way that
Speaker 1: they go with it, but there's a way I can
Speaker 1: see it where she's like Okay, well what's my alternative this? Okay,
Speaker 1: then I'll throw myself into this and hopefully it will
Speaker 1: end better for me, which is bleak. It's a really
Speaker 1: shitty choice that she has to make, but you understand
Speaker 1: why she makes the one she makes, right, because it's like,
Speaker 1: I mean, there's unfortunately there in there's no way that
Speaker 1: her acting career was going to get easier as she
Speaker 1: gets older. You mean yeah, yeah, like I mean Eve
Speaker 1: or no Eve. And that was true for Betty Davis,
Speaker 1: like I mean right, Because so this movie is largely
Speaker 1: about a woman who is very insecure about aging, who
Speaker 1: worries that she will be replaced by a younger woman,
Speaker 1: both in her romantic life and her professional life. Then
Speaker 1: her fear are actualized when a younger woman shows up,
Speaker 1: exploits those insecurities and then like weasels her way in
Speaker 1: and tries to replace her, and then you know the
Speaker 1: various consequences of that. So it's another movie that focuses
Speaker 1: on an antagonistic relationship between two women who are in
Speaker 1: competition with each other. I do think that this, especially
Speaker 1: for the time this came out in I think the
Speaker 1: movie does a fairly decent job of exploring like why
Speaker 1: women be in competition with each other because of the
Speaker 1: through line of like Margot's insecurity about aging. But I
Speaker 1: also agree Jamie, you know you suggested that the movie
Speaker 1: doesn't really go so far as to say, well, why
Speaker 1: would a woman be insecure about aging? Well, because like
Speaker 1: men run society and men don't deem women getting older
Speaker 1: is something that's socially acceptable. She's like, why doesn't Lloyd
Speaker 1: write her apart? Like, why doesn't Lloyd write her apart?
Speaker 1: It would be why doesn't Lloyd just fucking write her apart?
Speaker 1: That would take Eve out of the equation entirely. They're like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: this is an insurmountable problem that Bettie Davis has to
Speaker 1: look twenty. Yeah, She's like, I have to say this though.
Speaker 1: Upon this most recent reviewing, I was really really struck
Speaker 1: by how good Eve is at doing what she wants
Speaker 1: to do, because, like the opening scenes where they meet her,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, like basically one of the first
Speaker 1: scenes where Karen meets her outside the theater takes you know,
Speaker 1: says hey, you know, I've seen you outside the theater
Speaker 1: every night, and she's like, yeah, you know, I watched
Speaker 1: the play every night. And then I stand outside the
Speaker 1: dressing room so I can maybe see Margot go in
Speaker 1: and out, and it's so pathetic and it's fucking raining,
Speaker 1: and it's she's all wet, and Karen is like, oh
Speaker 1: my god. And then she gets to come inside and
Speaker 1: meet Margot, and Margot mainly doesn't pay attention to her
Speaker 1: for a while. And then when she finally and Eve
Speaker 1: doesn't say anything. She's invisible. She's just like a fly
Speaker 1: on the wall. And then finally, when there's like a
Speaker 1: time where everybody's been introduced to Eve, she gives this
Speaker 1: big fucking monologue that we later find out is full
Speaker 1: of lies about her upbringing, and Bertie calls it out
Speaker 1: right away. Bertie's like, wow, what is that like character
Speaker 1: actor line she gives. It's like everything but the kitchens,
Speaker 1: the Bloodhounds, everything but the Bloodhounds. Snippet. Yeah, it was great.
Speaker 1: But the thing that she does in these early scenes
Speaker 1: that I hadn't really noticed up until now how perfectly
Speaker 1: she does it, is she targets what she knows about
Speaker 1: those people and their insecurities, and she gives it to them.
Speaker 1: So like Margot is insecure about her own power, and
Speaker 1: so Eve defers to her. She's like, you're the queen.
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with you. I'll do anything you say, run
Speaker 1: me over with a car. And Margot was like, I
Speaker 1: kind of like this girl because that's like who Margot is.
Speaker 1: She wants somebody who's like Margot is the most important
Speaker 1: person in the universe. So like Eve fucking works to
Speaker 1: get everybody on her side before she really starts sucking
Speaker 1: up their lives, and like Bill, you know, she's like, hey, uh,
Speaker 1: let me ask you a question about theater. He jumps
Speaker 1: down her throat. She immediately is like, that's okay, I
Speaker 1: don't mind. I like it, daddy, And he's like, hmmm,
Speaker 1: I kind of like this girl. Like everybody she meets,
Speaker 1: she she is exactly what they want her to be.
Speaker 1: And you know, that's a lot of work. When she
Speaker 1: tells the story of her life, she sets it up
Speaker 1: so that Margot and the play aged in Wood literally
Speaker 1: saved her life. And who doesn't want to hear that?
Speaker 1: Who doesn't want to hear I was at my lowest
Speaker 1: point and you and your art saved me right, Like
Speaker 1: it's just it's it's so she is incredibly smart, and
Speaker 1: she's like determined in a very funny old timing way.
Speaker 1: But she's very determined to change her like station in life,
Speaker 1: which a lot of us are, and it's like you,
Speaker 1: she's trying to live out the American dream and she's
Speaker 1: like willing to ruin people's lives over it, and it
Speaker 1: sounds like, I mean, we don't know what Margot was
Speaker 1: like as a young woman, but we do know that
Speaker 1: Margot also started as like a lower middle class girl
Speaker 1: and escalated to the huge star that she is. So
Speaker 1: it's not out of the realm with possibility that Margot
Speaker 1: was once using this playbook, um, which I think it
Speaker 1: would be kind of interesting to know. But I think
Speaker 1: like Eve, I mean, I know, even the quote unquote
Speaker 1: villain of the story, but even watching it, even if
Speaker 1: you don't interpret Eve as the villain of the story,
Speaker 1: it is like cool to see, like you're saying, sorry,
Speaker 1: how she uses that playbook, which it's like in many ways,
Speaker 1: and it's like frustrating to watch her have to kind
Speaker 1: of like convince these mostly male figures and Margot that
Speaker 1: she is worthy and to get the information she needs
Speaker 1: to get to where she wants to be. But then
Speaker 1: you kind of see at a much lower less scary level.
Speaker 1: Marilyn Monrose character has to do the exact same thing
Speaker 1: where she's like brought out and told immediately like you
Speaker 1: have to be nice to this old man. If you
Speaker 1: want to be successful, do it. And then and people
Speaker 1: get frustrated with her because she's good at it. But
Speaker 1: it's like you told her that that was the only
Speaker 1: option she had, Like what else is she supposed to do? Yeah,
Speaker 1: like Addison de Witt brings her to Margo's party to
Speaker 1: flirt with Max. Yeah, to flirt with Max, because Max
Speaker 1: is a producer, and Max is just like, oh my stomach,
Speaker 1: you know, like he's that Hollywood producer we all know
Speaker 1: and love from the forties. I guess he's like I
Speaker 1: need I need digestivates. You're like, yeah, get this man
Speaker 1: some thums. You're like, what the fund does this guy do?
Speaker 1: And then Addison just as goes, okay, well here's Max.
Speaker 1: Go basically, you know, pull your dress down off one
Speaker 1: shoulder and go, you know, hang out with him a
Speaker 1: little bit. And she's like, okay, just go show over
Speaker 1: your tits, okay. But it's like she's not given and
Speaker 1: and it's also what I like about I mean, There's
Speaker 1: not too much to say about Marilyn Monro's character. She's
Speaker 1: only in two scenes, but she does have that little
Speaker 1: arc where I think she tells him like outright, she's
Speaker 1: just like, whire all of these guys gross. Like she
Speaker 1: basically says, I hate that I have to do this,
Speaker 1: and he's like, well, you have to do it, so yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And it's like that. I I appreciate that this greenwriting
Speaker 1: goes to like demonstrate that, like, these women aren't idiots.
Speaker 1: They know that like what is being asked if them
Speaker 1: is unreasonable. But there there doesn't at this time seem
Speaker 1: to be an alternative, right because, like I mean, we
Speaker 1: we talk about what women sometimes have to do to
Speaker 1: get ahead in the world because the world is set
Speaker 1: up so that it's harder for women to you know,
Speaker 1: make a livable income or to get promotions or be
Speaker 1: leaders of industry or anything like that. And this was,
Speaker 1: you know, even more true for nineteen fifty than it
Speaker 1: is now. So that means that, you know, women sometimes
Speaker 1: have to turn to other avenues just to be able
Speaker 1: to survive or get ahead in the smallest way, and
Speaker 1: sometimes that means women having to use their sexuality to
Speaker 1: get ahead, which is what we see Marilyn Monroe do
Speaker 1: um well, and Eve's willing to do it too. She
Speaker 1: tries to seduce Bill, she tries to seduce Lloyd. Okay,
Speaker 1: so question about even Lloyd. Do you think she's bullshitting
Speaker 1: Addison at the end, I can't tell. I feel like
Speaker 1: just knowing her, yes, I think she is. But I'm
Speaker 1: always down to hate Lloyd more. But it doesn't seem
Speaker 1: like that just seems like it happened too fast to
Speaker 1: be true, and things like we don't see and you know,
Speaker 1: the fact that they apparently cut fifty pages of script
Speaker 1: kind of makes this make more sense. I'm like, we
Speaker 1: never we as viewers never see them together, which is
Speaker 1: a thing that we need to have to you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. In this film, the camera is objective,
Speaker 1: so if we had seen Lloyd and Eve make out,
Speaker 1: I would believe it. But when Eve says something, I
Speaker 1: don't necessarily believe it, right, which is like you're supposed
Speaker 1: to feel that way too, So you're just like, but
Speaker 1: but is that an artistic choice to like to imply
Speaker 1: ambiguity or is it just cover time? I'm not sure,
Speaker 1: But I mean, so we have like women using their
Speaker 1: sexuality to get ahead. We or like women marrying a
Speaker 1: man who will provide financial security, and that's maybe like
Speaker 1: what Karen does with Lloyd, because like she's always framed
Speaker 1: as like I don't have any part of the theater
Speaker 1: except for my husband, he is a playwright, and she
Speaker 1: does have his job for him. What do we see
Speaker 1: over and over, Like she makes a lot of the
Speaker 1: high level decisions, she makes casting decisions like I'm just
Speaker 1: like put her on the bank roll Lloyd, Jesus no, yeah,
Speaker 1: yeah yeah. And then another thing that women might have
Speaker 1: to do to again like change their station in life
Speaker 1: is to trample on other women to get ahead, which
Speaker 1: is what Eve is doing. But again, like, there are
Speaker 1: a lot of situations where women might feel like they
Speaker 1: have to compete against another woman for something, and it's
Speaker 1: often because they're operating within an industry or an institution
Speaker 1: that is again controlled by men, and men have only
Speaker 1: allotted a small number of spaces for the women to occupy.
Speaker 1: So of course, like women and feel like they have
Speaker 1: to compete against each other for these very finite number
Speaker 1: of spaces, especially when society gives women like an expiration
Speaker 1: date and like doesn't value older women, which is Margot's
Speaker 1: whole insecurity Um And I feel like a lot of
Speaker 1: a lot of movies that we've talked about do have
Speaker 1: this through line of women being in competition with each
Speaker 1: other and some into varying degrees of success. Will they
Speaker 1: explore why that might be, But the fact that it
Speaker 1: attempts it, I feel like it is like kind of impressive,
Speaker 1: kind of impressive for ninety especially a movie that was,
Speaker 1: you know, written and directed by a man um because
Speaker 1: a lot of these movies, like the ones that we've
Speaker 1: covered so far in the podcast, that have been about
Speaker 1: kind of antagonistic or competitive female relationships. You know, We've
Speaker 1: got Death Becomes Her, Working Girl and the Favorite Those
Speaker 1: are some of our Matreon episodes. We've got Black Swan,
Speaker 1: We've got Single White Female, We've got My Best Friend's Wedding.
Speaker 1: And I think all of these movies are written and
Speaker 1: or directed by men. So I'm like, if manco Witz
Speaker 1: can do it thirty years before you did, what's the
Speaker 1: problem or just let a woman write a movie. Women's
Speaker 1: interiority was not invented until the nineties. But I also
Speaker 1: wonder like how many of these men are just like, well,
Speaker 1: women be petty and women be competing against each other.
Speaker 1: I have no idea why they might be like that,
Speaker 1: but that's how they be, so like they just make
Speaker 1: movies about it. There. The other thing with this that
Speaker 1: is not even mentioned in the film's credits, which seems
Speaker 1: kind of fucked, is that um Joseph Manko has adapted
Speaker 1: this from a short story written by a woman. Um,
Speaker 1: which may expect. I don't know how faithfully adapted it is.
Speaker 1: I think that he like it was a pretty short
Speaker 1: story and he really flushed it out, and it was
Speaker 1: mainly the Eve character that he took. But it was
Speaker 1: a short story written by a writer named Mary Or
Speaker 1: who I guess was hanging or round Hollywood and had
Speaker 1: like seen some all about Eve situation and wrote about it.
Speaker 1: But she's not She's not credited at all, and she's
Speaker 1: not credited. They just like stole her story and didn't
Speaker 1: credit her. Well, I mean, I think she didn't steal it.
Speaker 1: She was pay like she was, but she wasn't credited,
Speaker 1: which is like bad. Um, We've got to take another
Speaker 1: quick break, but we'll come right back. Well, we're talking
Speaker 1: about Eve. I wanted to talk Caitlin. We talked about
Speaker 1: this briefly yesterday. But um, there has been a fair
Speaker 1: amount written about um how Eve maybe queer coded. It's
Speaker 1: never been said by Mankowitz whether this was intended, but um,
Speaker 1: it's been speculated that the characters of Addison de Witt
Speaker 1: and Eve are both queer coded characters, and they are
Speaker 1: also the two villains of the story. Um, which seems
Speaker 1: to be you know, a very um, regressive, old timmy
Speaker 1: Hollywood thing that happens all the time. But there's been
Speaker 1: I mean, it's weird, there's stuff written about it kind
Speaker 1: of both ways. I'm pulling brilliantly from the Wikipedia page here.
Speaker 1: But um, brave, brave Jamie, thank you so much. I
Speaker 1: can't wait for to read our iTunes reviews of like
Speaker 1: These Dumb Broads Should Die? Um um okay. Professor Robert J. Corber,
Speaker 1: who has studied homophobia within the cultural context of the
Speaker 1: Coldware in the US, posits the foundational theme and all
Speaker 1: but Eve is the defense of the norms of heterosexuality,
Speaker 1: specifically in terms of patriarchal marriage. Uh must be upheld
Speaker 1: in the face of challenges from female agency and homosexuality.
Speaker 1: The nurturing heterosexual relationships of Margo and Bill, and of
Speaker 1: Karen and Lloyd served to contrast the loveless relationship, predation,
Speaker 1: and sterile careerism of the homosexual characters, even Addison. Um, okay,
Speaker 1: so question what is the basis for reading Eve as
Speaker 1: queer coded? I guess because she never she's like doesn't
Speaker 1: have a real boyfriend. I don't know, right, Okay, so
Speaker 1: this is basically the same thing with Addison is like
Speaker 1: he's kind of effeminine and he doesn't have a girlfriend.
Speaker 1: That's it. Well, I've also seen people. I've also seen
Speaker 1: people site the line and it's it's like either way,
Speaker 1: they don't explicitly like Addison for sure fields old timey
Speaker 1: queer coding to me. But I'm like, maybe that's not true.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but but there is that one line.
Speaker 1: I definitely I definitely think so. But um, sometimes that's
Speaker 1: all there is, you know what I mean. Like, but
Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean that it's not a thing, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? The line I saw people sighting
Speaker 1: in writing about this movie as like possibly commenting on
Speaker 1: quirt as. It was at the end where Addison says
Speaker 1: that he like actually doesn't want to suck or anything.
Speaker 1: She's gross and then he says, you're an improbable person, Eve,
Speaker 1: So am I we have that in common? And so
Speaker 1: different people have interpreted that as some like very production
Speaker 1: codey it may shin of otherness, but it was never said.
Speaker 1: And and interestingly, Mankowitz Um has said in interviews later,
Speaker 1: I don't think he was asked about this outright, but
Speaker 1: that he he um is not homophobic, which is I
Speaker 1: mean imagine um he said that, Um he thinks that
Speaker 1: society should quote drop its vendetta against homosexuals unquote, which
Speaker 1: is a very old timey way to be an ally. Um.
Speaker 1: Can I give a different reading? And I'm sorry, I
Speaker 1: just I've been too exposed to b D s M
Speaker 1: culture via via a close friend to not be able
Speaker 1: to read so many scenes in this as highly sexual
Speaker 1: power dynamics. So one way that I read Addison and
Speaker 1: Eve is like he shows up and he's like, hey,
Speaker 1: what if I own you? And she's like, UM, no thanks,
Speaker 1: and he's like, all blackmail you if you don't let
Speaker 1: me own you, because that's what he wants to do.
Speaker 1: And while I see that as a reading of like
Speaker 1: he's gay and he wants a beard, you know, if
Speaker 1: that's like the queer reading. It's like beat my girlfriend
Speaker 1: in public, and I'll not reveal your secret life to anyone.
Speaker 1: Also want to mention her real name, Gertrude Slovinsky. There
Speaker 1: might be some other types of coding going on here
Speaker 1: that's true or not careful. There might be a little
Speaker 1: bit of a little bit of anti Semitism here if
Speaker 1: we're if we're thinking about it, and I mean you
Speaker 1: would think that in this I mean, I think that
Speaker 1: this movie is supposed to take place around n That
Speaker 1: used to be a super common Hollywood practice would be
Speaker 1: if you had a name that sounded to other in
Speaker 1: any way, you just have to change it. But not
Speaker 1: make a Witz, not make Wits. But if make a
Speaker 1: Witz was a woman, maybe he would have possibly, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I think I think it's a it's a
Speaker 1: it's an interesting way of commenting on like whitewashing in Hollywood.
Speaker 1: I mean, the whole readA Hey Earth story. There's so
Speaker 1: many stories like that. It's an interesting it's an interesting point.
Speaker 1: But anyways, back to back to even Addison, Um, it
Speaker 1: really feels like it's a very master slave type relationship. Um.
Speaker 1: And that may not be what is implied, but I
Speaker 1: think if you, uh, if you wanted to read it
Speaker 1: that way, you could and it just I don't know,
Speaker 1: it really jumps out at me. That's a fun read
Speaker 1: like that. There dynamic is like, so it's so sexy,
Speaker 1: you know, as you said, um, as you quoted from that.
Speaker 1: Basically the queer theory reading of it, their relationship is
Speaker 1: very sterile, sexless ambitious. It's all about getting ahead. He
Speaker 1: wants to be with her, not because he wants to
Speaker 1: fuck her, you know, it's about my career, like your
Speaker 1: body disgusts me. I only love power. Let's use each other. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then Eve is like mmmm, but like once Eve,
Speaker 1: Eve immediately uses Addison before before that part. She uses
Speaker 1: Addison from the beginning to at a hit like she's like,
Speaker 1: come watch my audition. Oh, I'll hang out with you, like,
Speaker 1: and she uses him in his column. I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's it's a very it's a tale of like two
Speaker 1: people who are both very strong willed and trying to
Speaker 1: manipulate each other. And then Addison is like, I have
Speaker 1: out manipulated you. Now you're the sub I don't know.
Speaker 1: I like this theory and it should be added to
Speaker 1: the Wikipedia page. Thank you. Please, added Jamie added to
Speaker 1: the page, I'll do it. But yeah, that there, that's
Speaker 1: the that's the queer theory reading. Before we get to Margaret.
Speaker 1: I mean, Margot's the one to watch here, but I
Speaker 1: wanted I had a few things to say quickly about
Speaker 1: Karen a k a the his wife of the story.
Speaker 1: I could talk about Karen four hours. Karen is I
Speaker 1: feel again it's like they're most movies of this time
Speaker 1: and of this time would not make Karen such a
Speaker 1: like a character with such depth, because she's presented to
Speaker 1: us as like she is the good wife Julianna Margolie's
Speaker 1: like she she's very polite, she's very respectful, she is
Speaker 1: doing what society is expecting of her. But later you
Speaker 1: get to see that she's like frustrated. She's frustrated and
Speaker 1: insecure in her marriage because she's married to an egotistical, asshole,
Speaker 1: narcissist who doesn't recognize how much she's contributing to his career. She,
Speaker 1: like Margot, is constantly told that she's being hysterical when
Speaker 1: she is simply stating what is happening in front of people,
Speaker 1: and I like that her Her friendship with Margot is
Speaker 1: kind of complicated too, because Margot is condescending to her
Speaker 1: for being a good wife, So like Karen is being
Speaker 1: put down for doing what society is asked of her,
Speaker 1: and Margot, I kind of interpret, like takes out her
Speaker 1: insecurity on Karen and be like, oh, you're such a
Speaker 1: good little wife, and then that motivates Karen to kind
Speaker 1: of fuck Margot over a little, which, like I think
Speaker 1: lesser writing would make that seem like women be fucking
Speaker 1: each other over, But with Karen, it's like, no one
Speaker 1: isn't shipping on Karen and she's only like doing what
Speaker 1: she thinks that she's supposed to do, and so I
Speaker 1: just like, I think she's fascinating, and I mean, I
Speaker 1: just like her. Between Margot, Bill Lloyd, and Eve, everyone
Speaker 1: in Karen's life is a narcissist except Bertie. Except for Bertie,
Speaker 1: who is so awesome. Bertie is absolutely my favorite character.
Speaker 1: She's Karen is like caretaking everybody, constantly catering to these
Speaker 1: huge egos that are pummeling her from every direction. Like
Speaker 1: can you imagine being friends with Margot the world's biggest leo,
Speaker 1: Like just somebody who's always like it's all about me, me, me,
Speaker 1: like literally the star of the show on stage and off,
Speaker 1: she's exactly the same. Everybody is like Margot's famous for
Speaker 1: being nuts, so like she's just a very classic drama
Speaker 1: Queen's literally Betty Davis like it's just yeah, and she's like,
Speaker 1: she's like, Karen's my best friend, Like, who do you
Speaker 1: think that best friend is not somebody who's ever going
Speaker 1: to try and take the spotlight away from her? Yeah,
Speaker 1: someone who's compartmentalizing the funk out of her life, no
Speaker 1: threat to Margot whatsoever, and someone who's very, very very
Speaker 1: happy being being totally behind the scenes. Karen deserves better,
Speaker 1: but also she then she drains the gas tank and
Speaker 1: it's like, I'm gonna sunk over my friend. I like that.
Speaker 1: I like that, Karen. But Karen's not smart there I think,
Speaker 1: I mean, Karen's smarter than people give her credit for it,
Speaker 1: but I guess that that's kind of relative. But she's
Speaker 1: not that smart. Everyone treats Karen like a fucking idiot,
Speaker 1: and she is like average. She thinks she's smart. I
Speaker 1: just don't think she's conniving the way that like Eve is,
Speaker 1: or I don't think she is. She does like one
Speaker 1: mean thing and then immediately feels endless guilt about it,
Speaker 1: And I mean it was a really shitty thing, Like
Speaker 1: I think what Karen does is almost worse than things
Speaker 1: that that like. And she never comes clean to Margot
Speaker 1: about it. I mean, Margot would murder her, but Margot
Speaker 1: would murder her, and so she doesn't tell her, and
Speaker 1: so she is kind of in a way lying to
Speaker 1: her best friend. She is yes, to protect her life.
Speaker 1: These people need therapy, So a therapist. Why would I
Speaker 1: have a therapist when I get sorry, when I could
Speaker 1: have a bottle of scotch ha ha. You're just like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, therapist right, hair on the ball cock.
Speaker 1: But then I feel I mean, I do feel bad
Speaker 1: for Margot, who again is like a pretty egomaniacal narcissist who,
Speaker 1: maybe you could argue, kind of drums up drama now
Speaker 1: and then. But also like she is, you know, the
Speaker 1: victim of Eve exploiting and manipulating her. And she keeps
Speaker 1: saying like, I don't trust this woman. She's annoying me.
Speaker 1: She's like pushing boundaries, like there's a lot of issues here.
Speaker 1: She's lying all this stuff, and you know, Bill is like,
Speaker 1: you're a paranoid none of this is happening. You know.
Speaker 1: Lloyd is over here being like having you in my
Speaker 1: place is a compromise. Your performances are lackluster, but it's
Speaker 1: only because he's not writing the right parts for her.
Speaker 1: He calls her a piano. It makes me so mad.
Speaker 1: Oh he like it's it's one of those funny ones
Speaker 1: where you're like, oh, men objectify women, and then you
Speaker 1: hear that line and you're like that's a bit much
Speaker 1: like there. Yeah, like that's a little too on the nose, dude,
Speaker 1: we get it. You think women are objects exactly brutal.
Speaker 1: I love in the party scene where Addison is like
Speaker 1: kind of drunk and he's just like blathering about like
Speaker 1: we're all freaks in the theater and like talking about
Speaker 1: how they're all they all go to the theater because
Speaker 1: they have nowhere else to go. Man, it's like this
Speaker 1: fucking breakfast club ass moment. And he's like, that's why
Speaker 1: we're all here, dude, and everyone's like, yeah, yeah, we're
Speaker 1: all a little random here, and you're like, stop it.
Speaker 1: It's so x d I do agree. I think that,
Speaker 1: like Marco, I mean, Margot is that's why she's so amazing.
Speaker 1: It's like she like, there are times where she is
Speaker 1: being a straight up brat, she's being a diva at
Speaker 1: different times, but then there's other times where it's like, no,
Speaker 1: she this concern she has is legitimate and people are
Speaker 1: ignoring her, and she's just defensive about it because everybody
Speaker 1: is constantly telling her, like, hey, don't you think you
Speaker 1: should maybe think about retiring? So she's kind of like, no,
Speaker 1: funk off. Yeah, there's a few. There's a few moments
Speaker 1: that I mean, Mark like, all of her moments are great,
Speaker 1: but they were like two in particular that I was
Speaker 1: just like that always blow me away. The first one
Speaker 1: is it's a scene with her and Bill. It's been
Speaker 1: mentioned that she's like gained a little bit of weight
Speaker 1: and she's being shamed for it, and she's in the
Speaker 1: same she is almost eating a chocolate the whole scene,
Speaker 1: which is a miracle because we don't see women eating
Speaker 1: movies ever. Uh, and Bill is calling her hysterical. He's
Speaker 1: saying it gently, but he's like, you gotta relax with
Speaker 1: all this stuff, la lah blah, and she's like resisting
Speaker 1: eating the chocolate and resisting eating the chocolate, and then
Speaker 1: once he gaslights her for the fourth or fifth time,
Speaker 1: She's just like shrugs and eats it, and it's like
Speaker 1: it's such a good moment. You're like, yep, everyone's been
Speaker 1: in that situation. And then there's that scene with her
Speaker 1: and Karen in the car, which is like heartbreaking and
Speaker 1: so like that scene where like Margaret, like if it
Speaker 1: wasn't already clear, you know that she's like very self
Speaker 1: aware of like she doesn't want to be loved for
Speaker 1: her image. She wants to be loved for herself. But
Speaker 1: how can she expect someone to love her for herself
Speaker 1: when she can't even distinguish herself from her image? And
Speaker 1: you're like, WHOA, that's heavy. And then she has that
Speaker 1: that monologue where she's like, funny business a woman's career,
Speaker 1: like that whole woman's career speech. Oh yeah, I have
Speaker 1: it here. She says, funny business a woman's career. The
Speaker 1: things you drop on the way up, the letters so
Speaker 1: that you can move faster. You'll forget you need the
Speaker 1: when you get back to being a woman. That's one
Speaker 1: career all females have in common, whether we like it
Speaker 1: or not, being a woman. But then she goes on
Speaker 1: to be like and you're not a woman unless you
Speaker 1: have a man who is married to you haven't performed
Speaker 1: your gender until you have U have a sexual partner.
Speaker 1: It's it's so it's so heartbreaking because it's like you
Speaker 1: can you can see why she wants to give up
Speaker 1: show like it's it's and and it's the same with
Speaker 1: like Bettie Davis. If like, it's not that Margot doesn't
Speaker 1: want to act, is that she just like is tired
Speaker 1: of like having to act in a very specific way
Speaker 1: that no longer makes sense, and like having to put
Speaker 1: up with all this stuff like no wonder she's like,
Speaker 1: fuck it. Yeah, how many actors, how many actors and
Speaker 1: actresses in Hollywood right now? Do you think basically feel
Speaker 1: the exact same way. Sure, I mean it's like I
Speaker 1: think you see a lot of women who I mean
Speaker 1: usually they start lifestyle brands. But I'm thinking of someone
Speaker 1: I think of because we just recorded Are my best
Speaker 1: Friend's wedding episode yesterday, is Cameron Diaz, where like she
Speaker 1: was so famous and she always played a variation on
Speaker 1: like the same role, and then when she turned forties,
Speaker 1: she was like and I don't I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: want to speculate and Cameron Diaza. I don't know why
Speaker 1: she chose to retire from acting, but I mean it's
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, they're there, just aren't as many options,
Speaker 1: and it's like you can go on ABC and play
Speaker 1: a lawyer, but like what else you know, there's not
Speaker 1: the options aren't always there, and it's like you you
Speaker 1: have to like empathize. I don't know, Marko, that's that
Speaker 1: car speech, fox me up. It makes me so sad. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's that ultimate moment if she's like, man, I know
Speaker 1: I've been a bit, but ship can you blame me?
Speaker 1: And you're like Noah, And it's so it's so like
Speaker 1: relatable to me to be like, ah, fuck, well, I
Speaker 1: guess I was really shitty everybody. Yeah, I mean she
Speaker 1: said something like I've been over sensitive to the fact
Speaker 1: that Eve is so young, so feminine, so helpless, Like
Speaker 1: she is like admitting to her insecurities about like Eve's
Speaker 1: youth and all this stuff, and then like Karen is
Speaker 1: sitting right beside her being like well, being being feminine
Speaker 1: in this context is being helpless. Like Margot is less
Speaker 1: feminine because she is not totally helpless. She definitely struggles
Speaker 1: with things, but she doesn't she doesn't need a man,
Speaker 1: you know, like or at least she or at least
Speaker 1: she acts like she doesn't for a while and then goes, yeah,
Speaker 1: I do. I don't like that was kind of a
Speaker 1: with with her and Bill. It's like there are a
Speaker 1: lot there are issues in that relationship. But I was
Speaker 1: kind of like, does she like need a man or
Speaker 1: does she want one? And like, like, I think maybe
Speaker 1: she doesn't need one, but she does want one, and
Speaker 1: there's like a conflict in her feelings of like she
Speaker 1: wants a man in her life, but she only wants
Speaker 1: it on very specific terms of like she's like you
Speaker 1: are Steadman, and Bills like I don't want to be
Speaker 1: Steadman and she's like, well, I don't know what to
Speaker 1: tell you because I want Steadman. And I mean, it's
Speaker 1: it's really interesting because it's I'm I think that it
Speaker 1: would be kind of like the easy choice to make
Speaker 1: with Marco, and I don't like the way that they
Speaker 1: end up sort of being like and then she was
Speaker 1: a wife and the end. But I think it is
Speaker 1: an interesting choice to give Margot the dimension of like, yes,
Speaker 1: she's very powerful, she guards her power, she's very talented,
Speaker 1: but she does want someone to love her for herself
Speaker 1: and is worried that that's not going to happen. That's
Speaker 1: very understandable. And if she wants a companionship in a
Speaker 1: man like totally fine. Many many people do, but it
Speaker 1: feels like such a weird inconsistency for her to start
Speaker 1: out being like, no, I don't want to get married.
Speaker 1: If we got married right now, it would just be
Speaker 1: to prove a point, and I don't want that, Like,
Speaker 1: we don't need to be married, and then like suddenly,
Speaker 1: out of nowhere, there's this shift in her character where
Speaker 1: she's like, well, I'm not a woman unless I marry
Speaker 1: this man, so let's get engaged. And it's like, where
Speaker 1: is this coming from? Well, it reminds me a lot
Speaker 1: of Katherine Hepburn movies, where in the beginning she's like,
Speaker 1: I don't need a man, funk everyone, and then halfway
Speaker 1: through the movie someone goes, Katherine, you've been putting on
Speaker 1: this persona where you're a bit and we know that
Speaker 1: deep down you want love from a man, and then
Speaker 1: she goes, I do, and I love those movies and
Speaker 1: I love Katherine Hepburn, and and she knew this, and
Speaker 1: she even talked about this as an actress, that she
Speaker 1: was typecast as you know, this this huge, gorgeous, like
Speaker 1: Amazon sort of lesbian, you know, who had as many
Speaker 1: lines and as much screen time as the man that
Speaker 1: she was in a romance with. But you know, it's
Speaker 1: it's how kind of how I feel about the Philadelphia story. Like,
Speaker 1: I love that in the beginning of that movie, she's
Speaker 1: so hard and so strong about maintaining her identity, and
Speaker 1: like in this movie, Margot was like, Hey, I love you,
Speaker 1: but I don't want to subsume my literal identity into yours.
Speaker 1: And Bill is like, come on, come on just a little,
Speaker 1: and she's like, no, I don't like that. And then
Speaker 1: by the end she's like, know what, I really love Bill.
Speaker 1: I guess I could subsume my identity for him a little,
Speaker 1: which is a thing that millions of people do every
Speaker 1: fucking day. Yeah it sucks, because yeah, it's it sucks
Speaker 1: to like watch someone make that choice, but it's it
Speaker 1: makes sense that she like of the time, it makes
Speaker 1: I don't know, well, you know, I'm just saying like
Speaker 1: it feels it feels relevant to now. You know, there
Speaker 1: are just people who are like who either you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes it's marriage, sometimes it's moving in with a partner.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's just you know, your fucking boundaries or whatever.
Speaker 1: But I don't know, I feel like there are there
Speaker 1: are people now who who are in kind of the
Speaker 1: same situation. And this movie is pretty old and that
Speaker 1: is yeah. I mean it is like and and I
Speaker 1: mean even speaking to it, you're saying about Katherine Hepburn
Speaker 1: movie is like that, like taming an independent spirit thing
Speaker 1: is such a thing. And it's also like, yeah, like
Speaker 1: the the almost like weird fantasy of like male writers
Speaker 1: being like, oh, the only reason that a woman would
Speaker 1: act independent is because they want to get the attention
Speaker 1: of a man. And then what they do they can chill,
Speaker 1: you know. And yeah, the way I do I kind
Speaker 1: of against my better judgment. I like Margot and Bill
Speaker 1: for each other in in a lot of moments, and
Speaker 1: I do appreciate that he shows up for her in
Speaker 1: a way that that no one does in the movie,
Speaker 1: because he's like one of the only people in the
Speaker 1: movie who doesn't really betray her at any point. Um,
Speaker 1: So we do appreciate him on that level of like
Speaker 1: he does seem to be I mean, for all the
Speaker 1: you're hysterical and not like we see the same scene
Speaker 1: with multiple female characters in this movie where it's a
Speaker 1: woman talking to a man and he's like, you're being
Speaker 1: hysterical and she's like, no, it's you're talking to me
Speaker 1: that way because of my gender, and they say what,
Speaker 1: and then that's the whole scene. Um. Yeah, and Bill
Speaker 1: is Bill is just as guilty of that attitude as
Speaker 1: the other men in the movie. I do appreciate that
Speaker 1: he shows up for her and does seem to love her,
Speaker 1: and there's like when that bullshit Addison de Witt article
Speaker 1: comes out, he's there right away, and like, I appreciate
Speaker 1: that element of Bill. I do think that like Margot
Speaker 1: and Bill are a very good pair because Margot really
Speaker 1: wants somebody who only wants her, and you know, for
Speaker 1: all of Bill's other faults, that is something that he is.
Speaker 1: You know, he wants, Yeah, he loves, he loves her
Speaker 1: and and I know, like for the cultural context of
Speaker 1: the time, there are things that you know, we would
Speaker 1: interpret as like clingy or weird that at the time
Speaker 1: we're like, this is what someone does when they're in
Speaker 1: love and respect a woman. You know, it's weird it's
Speaker 1: like and in this movie, this movie is very often
Speaker 1: compared to Sunset Boulevard, which comes out around the same time,
Speaker 1: and there was like just a period I'm sure that
Speaker 1: someone's written a thesis on this, but like a period
Speaker 1: of time where like the aging actress was a part
Speaker 1: that was available to women over forty and they were like,
Speaker 1: look at this amazing opportunity for you. You're playing yourself
Speaker 1: and how you feel insecure, and they were supposed to
Speaker 1: be like, and you're a monster, and it ends horribly
Speaker 1: for you. But but I think, I mean, I used
Speaker 1: to really like Sunset Blean. It's a very well written movie.
Speaker 1: But I think watching them both, I've seen them both
Speaker 1: this year now, and I mean, Sunset Bolevard is is
Speaker 1: not very kind to women. And I think that, like Margot,
Speaker 1: I guess Margot's strength at the end of the movie
Speaker 1: is that she has the respect and love of the
Speaker 1: people in her life. Still, She's still even though Karen
Speaker 1: is lying to her, she has Karen, she has Lloyd,
Speaker 1: she has Bill, and she has like her support system
Speaker 1: is intact, and but that's at the expense of her
Speaker 1: career sort of. I don't know, it's just all very right, Well,
Speaker 1: I think I think what the film like wants to
Speaker 1: portray by the end is like, sure, E've got what
Speaker 1: she wanted material gain, power, success, aim, but at the
Speaker 1: expense of she can't break up with Addison DeWitt or
Speaker 1: else he will destroy her life. So like She's got
Speaker 1: this partner who she's with not because she loves him,
Speaker 1: but because he's literally blackmailing her. And Margot has this
Speaker 1: partner who is with her because he loves her, and
Speaker 1: that's it. He's not with her because she's famous. He's
Speaker 1: not trying to get anything out of her. He really
Speaker 1: does just want to be with her, even if she's
Speaker 1: not an actress anymore. So in that way, like Margot
Speaker 1: basically not being an actress anymore is shown as like
Speaker 1: a positive thing. Yeah, like for her identity. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: implied that she's able to be more comfortable and more
Speaker 1: herself not acting. But again that lets I mean, that
Speaker 1: lets Lloyd off the hook in a major way, because
Speaker 1: it's like, yes, why would you want Lloyd in your lifestyle.
Speaker 1: It's like, I mean, ultimately watching it through this time,
Speaker 1: it just felt very clear that like the villain of
Speaker 1: the movie is the industry that they're in and not
Speaker 1: even specifically, Um, whether the movie recognizes that, I kind of.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't think so. Actually, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know how hard was thinking about this. I
Speaker 1: don't know. I think it does. I think it touches
Speaker 1: hard on, you know, like with the with the Miss
Speaker 1: Caswell stuff, on just the disposability of young talent and
Speaker 1: how the industry will take somebody from nobody to super
Speaker 1: famous receiving industry's highest award within a year, and who
Speaker 1: knows what the funk will happen to even in a year.
Speaker 1: You know, she's like a she's like a child star basically,
Speaker 1: you know, and child stars often have a very rough
Speaker 1: time when they stop being a child star. It's true. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think that at very at least manko
Speaker 1: Witz is he's making common he's making a pretty brutal
Speaker 1: commentary on theater specifically, which like so I'm like, okay,
Speaker 1: you know he's got some vendetta against the theater what
Speaker 1: But like, yeah, it does seem like he has an
Speaker 1: awareness that this is But but I can't tell that
Speaker 1: if he's just framing like this is how this industry works,
Speaker 1: I can't tell how critical he actually is of it,
Speaker 1: I don't know, um, but either way, it's a fucking
Speaker 1: well written movie. It's really I have Can I share
Speaker 1: some of my favorite lines of dialogue, because there are lots.
Speaker 1: I'll try to pair this down, um, starting with I mean,
Speaker 1: there's among the many, many conversations that Margot has about
Speaker 1: age and aging in her insecurities around it. UM. At
Speaker 1: one point we learned that she is forty and Bill
Speaker 1: is thirty two, so she's eight years older than him,
Speaker 1: and she says, he's thirty two, he looks thirty two.
Speaker 1: He looked at five years ago, he'll look at twenty
Speaker 1: years from now. I hate men. Another one is toward
Speaker 1: the beginning, when Margot says to Lloyd, be a playwright
Speaker 1: with guts, write me one about a nice, normal woman
Speaker 1: who just shoots her husband. And we're like, yes, they
Speaker 1: really knew how to like write amazing insults and like
Speaker 1: Snyde remarks in old Hollywood Betty Davis, I guess she
Speaker 1: had a reputation for rewriting a lot of her own
Speaker 1: lines in movies, and this was supposed to be one
Speaker 1: of the only movies she was ever in that she
Speaker 1: like didn't rewrite a single line. Amazing, interesting because there's
Speaker 1: an exchange about that where Lloyd is talking about the
Speaker 1: words he's written in his plays, and he's like, just
Speaker 1: when exactly does an actress decide they are her words
Speaker 1: that she's saying, her thoughts she's expressing. And Margot responds
Speaker 1: right back with usually at the point when she has
Speaker 1: to rewrite and rethink them to keep the audience from
Speaker 1: leaving the theater, right, which is like, literally, what Betty
Speaker 1: Davis would do? We really really quick before I forget,
Speaker 1: So I guess. Claudette Colbert was originally supposed to play
Speaker 1: the part of Margo um and, in I think the
Speaker 1: most old Hollywood depressing reason of all time, she could
Speaker 1: not play the part and the part went to Benny
Speaker 1: Davis because Claudette Colbert hurt her back in a rape
Speaker 1: scene in a movie. Literally the movie was about her
Speaker 1: getting raped and her back was hurt, and so she
Speaker 1: couldn't play this role of a lifetime. Most oppressing thing
Speaker 1: I've ever heard in my life anyways, um continue, that's
Speaker 1: so fucked up. Also, um manco Witz said that, and
Speaker 1: Baxter he said it was such a weird, old timey
Speaker 1: sexist compliment. He said that ann back he chose and
Speaker 1: Baxter to play Eve because she had bitch virtuosity. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I read that somewhere too, which is I'm like, I mean,
Speaker 1: he's right. I feel like women should be allowed to
Speaker 1: use that phrase among themselves. Yes, Eve has extremely high
Speaker 1: level of bitch virtuosity. And okay, Caitlin, did you write
Speaker 1: down that part where Eve is talking about applause and
Speaker 1: she's like, applause, applause, it rushes over you like waves.
Speaker 1: Oh no, I didn't write that one down. It's so good.
Speaker 1: She's just like I can only get horny when people
Speaker 1: are applauding. That whole scene is just her monologue about
Speaker 1: like I need attention. I love it and I can't
Speaker 1: live without it. And that's why I feel like with
Speaker 1: her in Addison, it's just about power. She's like I
Speaker 1: need the power, and he's like, I got you the power.
Speaker 1: You're my slave, and she's like, okay, Oh, here's a
Speaker 1: fun one that Marilyn Monroe's character says to Eve about
Speaker 1: Addison de Witt because Eve is like, oh, I don't
Speaker 1: want to we we should? You should to me, I'll
Speaker 1: just I'll just bore you and Marilyn Monroe says, you
Speaker 1: won't bore him, honey, you won't even get a chance
Speaker 1: to talk. And oh, it's like such a great burn
Speaker 1: that she I don't even think she realizes is a burn.
Speaker 1: Marilyn Monroe is so good at that, at like just
Speaker 1: being like acting so dumb but saying it so perfectly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: man's great. Uh. And then I think my final favorite
Speaker 1: line that I will share is Lloyd talking to Karen
Speaker 1: while they're arguing about Eve. He says that better cynicism
Speaker 1: of yours is something you've acquired since you've left Radcliffe,
Speaker 1: and Karen says that cynicism you referred to I acquired
Speaker 1: the day I discovered I was different from little Boys,
Speaker 1: and we're like, ah, feminist icon Karen. Karen is right.
Speaker 1: Every time a woman has intuition in this movie, she
Speaker 1: has treated as if she is making things up right,
Speaker 1: and she's always right. She's like, like, being a woman
Speaker 1: is about knowing ship that men don't know. Good grief.
Speaker 1: The men in this movie are pretty dim. It's true.
Speaker 1: Does anyone else have any other final thoughts to share?
Speaker 1: I don't think so. This is Oh god, this is
Speaker 1: so much fun. Yeah, this is I mean, I'm so
Speaker 1: glad I got to talk about this movie with someone
Speaker 1: about um the scene where Eve is in the bathroom
Speaker 1: with Karen and his blackmailing her. She's wearing this incredible
Speaker 1: costume that has a really high neck and has like
Speaker 1: sort of a scallop neckline, and the actual neckline is
Speaker 1: very low, but the neck is very high and in
Speaker 1: between is like a fine mesh. And it's so perfect
Speaker 1: for a scene where somebody who has acted extremely modest
Speaker 1: up until this point is suddenly is shown to be
Speaker 1: extremely false and have been like good costumes, good costumes
Speaker 1: he had. Has anyone ever said that? Also, Jamie, there
Speaker 1: is a respute and reference? Did you catch it? I love?
Speaker 1: I mean, as if the work couldn't be elevated more so?
Speaker 1: Good God, if I wish, I wish Alfred Molina were
Speaker 1: alive for this, oh really quick car update. So I've
Speaker 1: been following, uh, Alfred Molina's fens to really carefully through
Speaker 1: the car and he he has a fence to and
Speaker 1: he's been sewing his own masks and he did a
Speaker 1: little so is my mom. He did a little jokey
Speaker 1: post yesterday where he was a message to everyone out
Speaker 1: there in the quarantine and it was just him wearing
Speaker 1: his mask and he was like who who and everyone's
Speaker 1: like ha ha, Freddy, you crack me up. I love that. Oh.
Speaker 1: I was going to tell you, guys, I saw Alfred
Speaker 1: Malina in a play. Wait did you see the one
Speaker 1: in Pasadena? Yeah? I saw the father. I saw the daddy.
Speaker 1: It was good that daddy was so good and so sad.
Speaker 1: I was not prepared for it to be so sad.
Speaker 1: Well I was. I was also led to believe that
Speaker 1: the woman who played ros On Fraser was going to
Speaker 1: be in the play, and that turned out to not
Speaker 1: be true. So I was a little disappointed from the
Speaker 1: guy that's so funny. My friend was just wrong. She
Speaker 1: was like Ross from Fraser is in it, and I
Speaker 1: was like, okay with Alfred Mallina for sure. Well, this
Speaker 1: conversation about Alfred Malina unfortunately does not pass the well
Speaker 1: I know it actually does pass the Bechtel tests, because
Speaker 1: we have said that any conversation about Alfred Millina does pass.
Speaker 1: And speaking of the Bechtel test, does all about Eve
Speaker 1: pass the Bechtel tests? Oh? Yeah? With flying colors? Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: first seen all the time. There's a lot of combinations
Speaker 1: of characters who talk to each other that passed between
Speaker 1: even Karen, between Eve and Margot, Margot and Karen, Margot
Speaker 1: and Birdie. The list goes on. It's a lot of passes.
Speaker 1: As far as our nipple scale zero to five nipples.
Speaker 1: Based on its representation of women, this one is a
Speaker 1: little tricky, and I wasn't nervous. I'll be honest, I
Speaker 1: was a little nervous to talk about this movie because
Speaker 1: you know, it's classical Hollywood cinema. I don't know an
Speaker 1: awful lot about old Hollywood, so I was like, oh, no,
Speaker 1: there's like gonna be all this context and stuff that
Speaker 1: I don't know about, and like information about the way
Speaker 1: you know, movies were made and the way stories were
Speaker 1: told back then, and I just don't know enough about it.
Speaker 1: But I do enjoy this movie. I do still struggle
Speaker 1: with movies that are about antagonistic relationships between women. I
Speaker 1: do think this movie has like a lot of nuance
Speaker 1: to its female characters. I do enjoy that it is
Speaker 1: female driven, but I still, if given a choice, I
Speaker 1: will almost never choose a movie that is about an
Speaker 1: antagonistic female relationship, because even though they do exist, in
Speaker 1: the world. I far prefer to see, you know, if
Speaker 1: there's a story about an older, more distinguished, successful woman
Speaker 1: taking a younger woman under her wing and being her mentor,
Speaker 1: I would rather see that story play out that they like,
Speaker 1: have a great relationship and they conquer the world and
Speaker 1: take down the patriarchy together. And I just like I
Speaker 1: wish for more stories like that. Um, But I do,
Speaker 1: of course, I see a lot of value in this story.
Speaker 1: I think it explores interesting themes, and I think that
Speaker 1: all the female characters are really interesting and far more
Speaker 1: fleshed out than we see in more contemporary movies, which um,
Speaker 1: you wouldn't necessarily expect. But I think that just between
Speaker 1: the the examination of Margot and her insecurities about aging,
Speaker 1: I do think that could have been explored a little
Speaker 1: bit more fully in terms of like why is she
Speaker 1: insecure about aging? Why do women end up in these competitive,
Speaker 1: antagonistic relationships. But I think it does a fairly good
Speaker 1: job for a movie, you know, written and made in
Speaker 1: ninety But there's a lot to love about this and
Speaker 1: find very interesting and compelling. I'll give it like a
Speaker 1: three nipples. I think, Um, of course, it's an extreme
Speaker 1: I don't you know they didn't let non white people
Speaker 1: be in movies back then, and if they did, they
Speaker 1: were in the most horrific trophy stereotypical, reductive roles imaginable.
Speaker 1: And this movie just erases people of color altogether. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's probably better that there were no people of color
Speaker 1: in this movie, right, because they would not have been
Speaker 1: treated respectfully in any know, it would have made it
Speaker 1: so much worse. But you know, I think it does
Speaker 1: by today's standards, I think this movie holds up pretty magnificently. Um,
Speaker 1: it's not without his issues. And then also just like
Speaker 1: the weird message of like, yes, women can be strong
Speaker 1: and awesome and great, and they shouldn't be antagonistic toward
Speaker 1: each other. But also a woman isn't a woman unless
Speaker 1: she's in a heteronormative relationship with a man and married
Speaker 1: to him. So that feels a little bit like a
Speaker 1: conflicting message. But overall, yeah, I think three nipples. I'll
Speaker 1: give two to Bertie and I'll give one to Bettie Davis.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna give this, Uh, I want to give it
Speaker 1: three point seven five. I guess I'll go three point
Speaker 1: I don't know, I want, I wanna yeah. I I
Speaker 1: also like, you know, I'm sure I have blind spots
Speaker 1: with this movie because I love it so much, But
Speaker 1: I just I think, especially for its time, Okay, I
Speaker 1: think with the context, given it's time, I'm going to
Speaker 1: give it three point seven five because there is, like
Speaker 1: I do I agree that, um, the like implication that uh,
Speaker 1: Margot's better off as a wife than as an actor.
Speaker 1: But but it's also not that sim I don't know.
Speaker 1: I I think that there's so many different kinds of
Speaker 1: women in this My main issue with the movie, I
Speaker 1: think is that it's not I mean, Eve is the
Speaker 1: clear cut villain, and it's not the system that they're
Speaker 1: inside of, but that is so inherent to the movie
Speaker 1: that it's hard to take yourself out of it. I
Speaker 1: just think that, I mean, this movie is about women
Speaker 1: in a way that for the most part and not
Speaker 1: but for the most part, is not condescending to their needs, wants, desires,
Speaker 1: or relationships with anyone around them. I just, Oh, Betty
Speaker 1: Davis is so amazing. I do wish that it examined
Speaker 1: the aging more than just this is how women feel,
Speaker 1: and not examine a why do women feel it this way? Um?
Speaker 1: But just the performances are so good, and the relationships
Speaker 1: between women are so like they're they're more detailed than
Speaker 1: just like women pulling each other's hair for two hours.
Speaker 1: There's more like I just I really like it. So
Speaker 1: I'll go three point seven five. Maybe that's too nice,
Speaker 1: give two to Bertie, uh one to Eve and uh
Speaker 1: point seven five to Margo. I'm gonna go out out
Speaker 1: and give it four full nipples, do it? See? I
Speaker 1: think something that we might want to do, Jamie for
Speaker 1: like really old movies like this is like do sort
Speaker 1: of like an adjusted for inflation nipple rating, where like
Speaker 1: if we were doing this podcast in like nineteen fifty
Speaker 1: and like this movie came out, it would be like, wow,
Speaker 1: five nipples across the board. But like, obviously this movie
Speaker 1: made seventy years ago. I will I will also say
Speaker 1: this this is this is one of those movies where
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, this is like a play. Like this
Speaker 1: is just like a play. There's nothing visually that exciting
Speaker 1: about it. It's it looks great, but it's really just
Speaker 1: like you watch this movie for the acting and for
Speaker 1: the writing, Like there's nothing going on visually that is
Speaker 1: you know that that exciting, you know even for the time,
Speaker 1: you know, even just differ inflation. This is a fucking talkie,
Speaker 1: you know. Uh, so you gotta you gotta sit down,
Speaker 1: you gotta be ready for like you know, there aren't
Speaker 1: they're on a lot of like fist fights or action
Speaker 1: sequences or anything in this movie. No, no big gags
Speaker 1: like that. I think you got to go into that
Speaker 1: with that mentality to enjoy it for sure. Who who
Speaker 1: would you like to give your four nipples to one
Speaker 1: to every drink that Margot had on the bumpy ride night? Perfect? Amazing?
Speaker 1: Uh Well, Sara, thank you so much for joining us
Speaker 1: for this incredible discussion. It's been a delight. Thank you
Speaker 1: for letting me talk about all about Eve for so long.
Speaker 1: This made my day. I of talking about this movie,
Speaker 1: I know, and I feel like I'm like, did we
Speaker 1: even cover everything? I feel like there's it's there's so
Speaker 1: many layers, are so much. Yeah, I feel like we
Speaker 1: kind of only scratch the surface. But thank you so
Speaker 1: much for being here, Sorrow. Where can people follow your stuff?
Speaker 1: Follow you online? All that good stuff? Uh? You can
Speaker 1: go to my website which is hey sorry June dot
Speaker 1: com and you can sign up for an email list
Speaker 1: which is a thing that I will do if people
Speaker 1: sign up for it. It's not a thing, but I
Speaker 1: don't know social media anymore, and I don't know what
Speaker 1: to do. I mean, that's the ultimate act of self love. Yes,
Speaker 1: for the best. Yeah, you can. You can go to UM.
Speaker 1: If you are on social media, please follow means TV
Speaker 1: sometimes it means Underscore TV. It is a streaming network
Speaker 1: and YouTube channel that I make videos for. And I'm
Speaker 1: going to have a series come out in a couple
Speaker 1: of months that I'm really excited about. Awesome, Only Jamie's
Speaker 1: in one. Yeah. Yeah, check that out. Everybody check it out.
Speaker 1: He I'm excited. Yeah, Jamie's gonna be in an episode. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I can't believe I forgot that first. We've been in
Speaker 1: here for so long. There was no life before this,
Speaker 1: It's true. Yeah, honestly, Um, it feels like one million
Speaker 1: years ago that we shot it. All right, Well, thanks
Speaker 1: for getting on the phone with me. Guys. This is like,
Speaker 1: you know, some much needed social I'm sure you can tell. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for having me. Of course, UM
Speaker 1: come back anytime we need to discuss more older movies.
Speaker 1: You can follow us on social media at Spechtel Cast.
Speaker 1: You can subscribe to our Patreon a k a. Matreon,
Speaker 1: which is at patreon dot com slash specktel Cast. It's
Speaker 1: five dollars a month and it gets you too bonus
Speaker 1: episodes and what better time to consume more content than
Speaker 1: right now during the quarantine. So check us out on
Speaker 1: the Matreon if you're able. It's true, you can get
Speaker 1: our more on t public. We're gonna be doing a
Speaker 1: lot of fun stuff in the coming months on the
Speaker 1: matrion if you want to join us. And uh we
Speaker 1: we love you so much. I hope this has been
Speaker 1: a sufficiently bumpy podcast. Yeah, hey, everyone, unfastened your seatbelts
Speaker 1: because the Bumpy podcast is over. Bye bye,