1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: Tell that story about how Grandaddy said something to him. Well, okay, 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: because let's get down to the brass tacks of it. 3 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:10,480 Speaker 1: Memi and Grandaddy, Mom's parents who were married. Mimi cheated 4 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: on Granddaddy with Papa. Can we say that at the workplace. 5 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: Mimi's going to be gone in a couple of years. 6 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, We'll cut it. We'll cut it. We got 7 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: to give the people to contact. 8 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, this is a taboo. 9 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: Thing, but it's happening everywhere all the time. It's true, 10 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: people cheat all of the time. I've always known this because, 11 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: as I've said many times, I come from a long 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: line of cheaters, and it's never been a secret in 13 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 1: my family. But it's also a subject we really don't 14 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: discuss very much, especially when we're all together. And even 15 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: though decades have passed and life partners have been found, 16 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: it was still a touchy subject for my mom to 17 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,199 Speaker 1: address when she came into the studio for the episode 18 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: we recorded with her last year. Ever since that conversation, 19 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: I've been wondering, why are people's so scared of really 20 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: getting into what it's like to be cheated on, or 21 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: to be the cheater, or to be cheated with. Today, 22 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: we're getting into it. I'm hopewordered and welcome to Boysover, 23 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: a space where we're learning and unlearning all the myths 24 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: we're taught about love and relationships. Here's a hot take. 25 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 1: I think cheating is more of a gray area than 26 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: we really make it out to be. And let me 27 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: stop right there and say I'm sorry if that's triggering 28 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: to anyone listening. I never want to excuse the heartbreak 29 00:01:55,600 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: that cheating causes, but maybe cheating can also lead us 30 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: to something big necessary, a revelation that helps us understand 31 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: what it is that we needed all along. Our guest today, 32 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: Lauren LaRusso is a psychotherapist who specializes in extra marital affairs. 33 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: She's the author of the book Beyond Infidelity, which helps 34 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 1: people who have been betrayed transform their grief into the 35 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: start of a new beginning. As a therapist, Lauren works 36 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: with every angle of cheating, the cheaters, the cheated on, 37 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 1: and the cheated with, so today she's here to dissect 38 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: what infidelity reveals about all of us. Lauren, Welcome to 39 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: boy Sover. Thanks for having me so excited to have 40 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: a therapist in the house. A small piece of me 41 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: just wants to tell you about my life in free 42 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 1: see where we Go, But I wanted to first ask 43 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 1: you how you got into working with extra marital affairs. 44 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 2: I was a therapist first, that was by design, and 45 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 2: then the part that wasn't by design is that I 46 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 2: discovered my own husband's affair and it did end up 47 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 2: ending my marriage. But what I discovered in that moment 48 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 2: of realization that my marriage was ending and this had 49 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 2: been happening, was that I was really unprepared for the 50 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 2: reality of what that looked like in real life. So 51 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 2: as a therapist, we can sit back in our chair 52 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 2: and guide people through something very different when you're going 53 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 2: through it. And so my experience led me to essentially 54 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,799 Speaker 2: look for all the resources I could, and I ended 55 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 2: up truly becoming an expert in it because I had 56 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 2: to go through it and I had to learn through it. 57 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: It is a thing that really breaks a person to 58 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: their core. When I was in maybe middle school, my 59 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: dad got caught. My mom like went to Verizon and 60 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: went through his phone records, which I feel like is 61 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: a very y two K way to get caught, And 62 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: I know that you could do that mean right, It's 63 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: like you really just have to be holding your partner's phone. 64 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: Like I've been hearing all these stories about cheating, and 65 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: it just seems like iPads and phones are always the 66 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: thing that get people caught. Will you tell me how 67 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: you found. 68 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 2: Out phone phone? You know, we do. We live in 69 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 2: this era where everything's obviously digital and contact is all 70 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 2: right there. So when you find out, you're opening Pandora's 71 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 2: box and you can't put it back in. So I've 72 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 2: had clients who literally the wrong text message comes to them, 73 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 2: or somehow a receipt is sent to their inbox that 74 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 2: wasn't supposed to be there, and so you can do 75 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 2: your best to cover it up. But that's how we 76 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,280 Speaker 2: transact these days totally. And so the odds of finding 77 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 2: out and discovering what's going on, it's all just right there. 78 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,919 Speaker 1: In my family, like we were completely shocked. It was 79 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 1: like my dad not to like everyone's fine now and forgiven, 80 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like we've moved past it, 81 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: but in the moment it was Pierre's shock, like no 82 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 1: one had any suspicion. But was that there for you? 83 00:04:57,760 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: Did you go looking for it or did it kind 84 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: of find you? Both? 85 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 2: And I think that, no matter how much suspicion you have, 86 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 2: the moment of going from possibility to truth is a 87 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 2: shock in and of itself. There is no preparation totally. Now, 88 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 2: I was shocked. I absolutely thought my marriage would last forever. 89 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 2: I don't know who gets married thinking it will end, 90 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 2: but you know, it's certainly not me. And so what 91 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 2: had been coming up for me was odd behaviors. So 92 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 2: it wasn't that I thought it would happen. It's that 93 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:35,559 Speaker 2: my marriage stopped making sense. The connection started to feel off, 94 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 2: the behavior started to feel different, and I started to say, 95 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,600 Speaker 2: we have a crisis here, and I can't figure out 96 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 2: what it is. Right. I'm a therapist, I'm relational. I 97 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 2: know I tuned in exactly, and we know our spouse 98 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 2: is they are our closest person. So I had these inklings. 99 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 2: I was asking directly, and then I went looking for 100 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 2: the truth myself, as many people do, and I found it. 101 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:04,479 Speaker 1: Something I've been thinking about is the cultural opinion on 102 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 1: staying or leaving if you find out a man is cheating, 103 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: Like I remember growing up, like my mom first of all, 104 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: wanted to stay, and for some reason, Hillary Clinton staying 105 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 1: with Bill Clinton was like a conversation in my house 106 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: and everyone was like really judgmental of her for staying, 107 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 1: which I think it's like person to person, But what 108 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: was your relationship with that leaving or staying, making it 109 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: work or not. 110 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 2: You can't figure out what you're gonna do until you're 111 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 2: walking in those shoes, And so I think that culturally 112 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 2: we want to say, of course I'm gonna leave. Our 113 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,799 Speaker 2: pride tells us of course we're gonna leave. I thought 114 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 2: if that ever happened. I even told my husband, if 115 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 2: that ever happened, that would be the deal breaker. I 116 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 2: didn't leave. Hmmm, I didn't leave. 117 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 1: Are y'all still together? 118 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 2: No, No, we're divorced. I didn't leave, even though I 119 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 2: thought I would. But I just want to also put 120 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 2: a pin in the fact that it goes both ways completely. 121 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 2: So I have a community for betray spouses where I 122 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 2: provide coaching and support. It is a huge number of 123 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 2: men in there who are dealing with the same kind 124 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 2: of shame of staying with a partner who has betrayed them. 125 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 2: And there's a million reasons to stay. It's your whole 126 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 2: life intact as you know it. Your family, your finance, 127 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 2: is your home, everything you've invested in up until then, 128 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 2: and then that one person does something that is known 129 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 2: as the deal breaker, and you're supposed to get up 130 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 2: and leave. It's not that easy. It creates a real crisis. 131 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: Why do you think this is something I think about 132 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: because I feel like there's so many relationships where maybe 133 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: people want to end it, maybe they should end it, 134 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: like not to keep talking about my parents, but like 135 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 1: they were fighting all of the time, and when they 136 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: got divorced, me and my siblings were like, yes, it 137 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: needed to happen. Why do you think cheating is like 138 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: the thing that finally like breaks it open, where it's 139 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: like that is like the ultimate deal breaker. 140 00:07:55,800 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 2: Hmmm, well, it is a break in the promise of 141 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 2: the relationship. Fighting isn't a break in the promise of 142 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 2: a relationship. Anger, all of those other resentments, they're not 143 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 2: what we consider to be deal breakers. They're what we 144 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 2: consider to be normal marital and relational exchanges. Now lying concealing, 145 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 2: using the resources that are meant for the relationship and 146 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 2: bringing them outside of the relationship. That's a transgression that 147 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 2: changes what's happening between the two people. Now there's something 148 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 2: that's not happening between the two people, and it's bringing 149 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 2: those resources that are meant for the relationship elsewhere. That's 150 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 2: what changes things. It's a deal breaker in that whether 151 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 2: you part ways or stay together is secondary to the 152 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 2: question of how are we going to make sense of 153 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:49,239 Speaker 2: this completely? 154 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: So when it happened to you and you decided you 155 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: were going to stay, like, how did that go? 156 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 2: Not? Well? Well, I learned firsthand what I now know 157 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 2: to be true, that someone who's been having an affair 158 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 2: was long gone and you are too late. Oftentimes, so 159 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 2: depending on the nature of the affair, when it's discovered 160 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 2: by the betrayed spouse or partner, they are now just 161 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 2: discovering something that has legs of its own, and that's 162 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 2: a life of it. It's a life of its own. 163 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 2: It's a fond it's a relationship, and that doesn't go 164 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 2: away easily quickly. And so I'm thinking, well, of course, 165 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 2: my partner's loyal to me. We're married, he's my spouse, 166 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 2: so he never stopped being my person. But I had 167 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 2: stopped being his person and I didn't know it. So 168 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 2: I'm over there being the therapist that I am going. 169 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 2: We can find a way to learn from this, grow 170 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 2: from this, get stronger now. At the same time, that 171 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 2: idea was also scary for me, because it's a huge 172 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 2: risk to recommit to someone who's hurt you, who's been 173 00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 2: lying to you. But you know what, do I have 174 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 2: to ar My whole life is here, Let's give it 175 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 2: a go. He was not in the same place. And 176 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 2: that's what many spouses who've been having an affair contend 177 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 2: with totally. They're still loyal to the affair, They're still 178 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 2: loyal to the affair partner. They're not ready to recommit. 179 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 2: They've got some stuff to sort of out about how 180 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 2: their feelings have changed, about how their reality has changed 181 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 2: in that time they've been having the relationship. So for me, 182 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 2: that was a huge journey of confusion of words not 183 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 2: matching behaviors. So, you know, my spouse affirming that he 184 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 2: thought we could make it work, but not doing the 185 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 2: things that would be required to make it work. Showing 186 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 2: up to the court but not playing ball, so to. 187 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: Say, completely just being checked out. I feel like when 188 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: people have been cheated on, they take like the self 189 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:50,079 Speaker 1: blame of it all. Why do you think that is? 190 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 1: And how do people deal with it? 191 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 2: We think that a successful relationship is something that somehow 192 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 2: we control, and in a way we do because we 193 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 2: bring our fifty percent to it. But when someone betrays you, 194 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 2: you know, societally and culturally, we see it as a 195 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 2: reflection of you, you as a partner. What we say 196 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 2: in this society is that if your partner was happy, 197 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 2: they wouldn't cheat. If you had been giving them what 198 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 2: they needed, if you hadn't been what they had needed, 199 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 2: they wouldn't cheat. That's very blameful. That puts the responsibility 200 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 2: squarely on the person who had no choice or agency 201 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 2: in the matter, which is all upside down. 202 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: So you work with a lot of people who have 203 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 1: been betrayed. You said three groups. I saw this on 204 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: your website, those who were like the affair partner, the 205 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: one who's done the betraying, and the one who's been betrayed. 206 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't sort of want to hear 207 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: about how you treat those three groups differently, and like 208 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: what you find between the three of them, the differences. 209 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's important for me to work with all sides 210 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 2: because healing requires work on all sides. As I experienced 211 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 2: me just trying to heal the relationship unilaterally, as the 212 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 2: betrayed left out two other major plays, which is why 213 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 2: my marriage ended, my husband and the person he was 214 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 2: in a relationship with. And so it is really important 215 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 2: to make sense on all sides, because each of those 216 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 2: people is experiencing something unique to them and telling themselves 217 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 2: stories that shape their experience and the choices they're making, 218 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 2: and oftentimes are being fed a story by one or 219 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 2: the other partner. 220 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: I have to tell you a personal anecdote. Earlier this year, 221 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: my mom and my stepdad were coming to town. Now, 222 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: my dad is dating a woman who he did get 223 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: caught with, so like the affair partner, they're still together. 224 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:54,559 Speaker 1: They've been together for like ten years or something, ever 225 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: since my parents divorced. He divorced my mom for her, 226 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 1: and so my mom and her boyfriend. I call when 227 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: my stepdad came to town, and I didn't realize, but 228 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: my dad and his girlfriend were also coming to town 229 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: at the exact same time, just so happens. And it 230 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 1: was about a week leading up when I realized it, 231 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: and I was like, oh my god. My mom and 232 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: this woman haven't been in the same room since pre 233 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: finding out, so they knew each other. They were like 234 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: friendly friend enough but they haven't seen each other ever since, 235 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,679 Speaker 1: and so I told my mom, and my mom was like, 236 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: I think we should all get lunch. 237 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:34,439 Speaker 2: Power move mom. 238 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: But when I asked him about it, he was like, 239 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: that is not going to happen. It's like, no, that's 240 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: his worst nightmare I think ever. But like I was 241 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: asking her, what are you trying to show? Like what 242 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: are you going to get out of sitting at lunch 243 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: with somebody like that? And she was like, I kind 244 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: of want to show her I'm not who maybe he 245 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 1: told her I was, And I thought that was It's 246 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,839 Speaker 1: like really powerful. Do you find that like those who 247 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: have been betrayed, like are trying to make amends with 248 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: the other woman? Like what is that dynamic? Like? 249 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 2: Hmm, Well, first of all, I just love that story 250 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 2: for so many reasons. 251 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: You Mom, she's a mess and loves a therapist, love 252 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: me some message. 253 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 2: There's just so many branches we could go down with 254 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 2: that story, right. It speaks to so many aspects of 255 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 2: the experience. I can't even tell you. But you have 256 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 2: to be so careful to as an affair partner about 257 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 2: the story you're hearing. 258 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: About the spouse. 259 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 2: It's usually painted with much more critical strokes, oftentimes quite unfairly. Now, 260 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 2: I would never every situation's different, So I would never 261 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 2: diminish someone's experience in a marriage that was really just impossible. 262 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 2: You know, there's plenty of partnerships that just are impossible. 263 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 2: But you know, it doesn't mean that that person's a 264 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 2: bad person or it's crazy. There's a lot of labels 265 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 2: that tend to get slapped on and assigned to make 266 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 2: it easier to have that transgression, and we need to 267 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 2: think critically about that. That's a person too. Maybe that 268 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 2: person wasn't so easy to be married to. It's just 269 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 2: because someone has an affair doesn't mean that they're the 270 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 2: person whose needs weren't being met or that they're not challenging. 271 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 2: Oftentimes it's quite the opposite. 272 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, how does infidelities show up in generational trauma? 273 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 2: Oh? 274 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: Hugely. 275 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, it does transcend generations depending on the imprint. So 276 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 2: for you, you're telling a story about how your dad 277 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 2: is still with his affair partner, and that's a story 278 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 2: you can tell in the next generation. And that's a 279 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 2: story that your mom has right about how her life went. 280 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: My grandmother also a cheater on my okay, on my 281 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: mom's side. My poor mom was like flanked by two 282 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: cheating situations. 283 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 2: It's very common. 284 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: You know, wait, why is it common that I think 285 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: life is. 286 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 2: Long and complicated and staying connected is hard. Honestly, we 287 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 2: have to learn to hang in there during hard times. 288 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 2: We need to learn to stay connected during hard times, 289 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 2: during moments of disconnection. It's really about hanging in there 290 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 2: because those are the times that we're all vulnerable in 291 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 2: our lives. It's just one of those things where it 292 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 2: can happen because you just feel connected to someone new. 293 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 2: We like newness as humans. So there's a million different 294 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 2: reasons why it happens. But essentially, when I work with 295 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 2: someone who has experienced the trauma of infidelity with their parents, 296 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 2: they come into their own relationships with a much more 297 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 2: acute awareness of the possibility of it, and they usually 298 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 2: have created rules in advance for themselves and their relationship 299 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 2: that I'm never going to do that and or that's 300 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 2: never going to happen to me, and then oftentimes they 301 00:16:59,440 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 2: end up. 302 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: Doing it right because it just happened right. 303 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 2: Or it ends up happening to them and they're like, 304 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 2: I told my spouse that that was the one thing 305 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 2: that they could never do because my dad did it 306 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 2: to my mom, or my mom did it to my dad, 307 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 2: and they did it and it's not rule based. 308 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 1: Do you think once a cheater, always a cheater. 309 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 2: No, I don't, and I can say that from firsthand experience. 310 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: Speak to that. 311 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 2: The answer is always. It depends when it's something that's 312 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 2: deep in your psyche in terms of you know, maybe 313 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 2: it's an attachment wound, maybe it's a personality trait, something 314 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 2: where you're always looking for the next right thing, or 315 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 2: you're looking to sidestep conflict or conversations that are natural 316 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 2: to a relationship. You are more likely to be unfaithful. Okay, 317 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 2: So when we see patterns in my practice, we see 318 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 2: patterns of personality, attachment styles, avoidance, conflict avoidance, those are 319 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 2: some of the risk factors for repeat infidelity. 320 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: Okay, so let me get this. So the risk factors 321 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 1: for repeat and fidelity are conflict avoidant. Makes sense insecure attachment? Like, 322 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 1: what attachment is a cheater? 323 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 2: No, well, listen, I would never It's not. None of 324 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,479 Speaker 2: this is black and white, because there's plenty of conflict 325 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 2: avoidant people who are just conflict avoidant loyal Yeah, exactly, 326 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 2: So it's more just when we're working with unfaithful spouses, 327 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:27,120 Speaker 2: there are patterns that we see in what got them 328 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 2: there and what might get them there repeatedly if they 329 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:31,880 Speaker 2: don't solve those parts of themselves. 330 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: What do you think people who cheat? What do you 331 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: think they most often misunderstand about maybe the damage they've 332 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 1: caused a lot. 333 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 2: Because I think unless you're on the other side, you 334 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 2: cannot really understand what it feels like. I don't think 335 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 2: that anyone who is unfaithful thinks at all about the 336 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 2: impact of it. They're only thinking about what they are 337 00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:00,680 Speaker 2: going to get or feel or experience because of it. 338 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 2: And then when it's too late, that's when the devastation 339 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:09,199 Speaker 2: sinks in. I didn't mean to end my marriage with this. 340 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 2: I didn't know it would traumatize you. I don't know 341 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 2: what anyone thinks is going to happen, but they're just 342 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 2: not thinking about it, and then the aftermath is a disaster. 343 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 2: It's generational trauma's crisis for the family. It's undoing for 344 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 2: the family. Now. Couples often stay together, and that doesn't 345 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 2: mean that they stayed together healed. Oftentimes they stay together 346 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 2: very deeply wounded, and that has its own ripple effect totally. 347 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: How do you feel like someone who has the tendency 348 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: to step out heals that part of them? How do 349 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,360 Speaker 1: they really address it? How do they get at it? 350 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 1: I feel like there has to be a level of 351 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: self forgiveness, but what's in your experience? How do they 352 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:49,640 Speaker 1: get beyond that? 353 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:52,400 Speaker 2: You need to learn about the parts of yourself that 354 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 2: were coming up around those behaviors, and you need to 355 00:19:55,760 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 2: lean into the counterbalance to those. So if you lean 356 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 2: towards dishonesty because you think you're protecting your spouse by 357 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 2: not telling them the truth about how you feel, can 358 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 2: you make micro choices day in and day out to 359 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 2: be more honest and sit in the discomfort of what 360 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 2: being a real human in your relationship looks and feels 361 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 2: like that's going to lead to some friction. 362 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 1: I was reading your book and I loved the part 363 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 1: where you said, once you're in this moment, so you've 364 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 1: found out and you have to heal from it. You 365 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: said something like treat yourself like you're in like basically 366 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 1: a care facil. Just go full blown into like take 367 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: care of yourself mode. Can you speak to why that is? 368 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 1: Because I feel like that's such a difficult thing to 369 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: do when you're so low and you're filled with self 370 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: blame and like your world has fallen apart. But once 371 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: I read it, it made sense. But can you speak 372 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:11,479 Speaker 1: to that a little. 373 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 2: It's such an important first step in the journey. It's 374 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 2: not only for stabilization and survival. Your nervous systems wrecked 375 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:25,360 Speaker 2: in a trauma. You're in grief and you need interventions 376 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 2: to help stabilize you and ground you during that time. 377 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 2: But more importantly, you're also laying the groundwork for self 378 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 2: care and self soothing, which is the number one most 379 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 2: important skill you will learn as a betrayed spouse. So 380 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 2: that piece of work that you have to do, it's 381 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,640 Speaker 2: not just like this fluff of oh go self care. 382 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 2: It's literally I'm learning to trust myself again in the 383 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 2: world by asking myself what I need in this moment 384 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:58,120 Speaker 2: and then providing that to myself. 385 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: I love the term self soothing. I feel like that 386 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: goes beyond self care. I feel like self care is 387 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: such a like thrown around all the time and sort 388 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,479 Speaker 1: of been taken over in a way that means it 389 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 1: means less almost now, and so many women I feel 390 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: like don't have time, are encouraged to before a big disaster. 391 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 1: But do you see the women in your practice coming 392 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: in with those tools Already? 393 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 2: Most of us don't learn to self soothe. 394 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: Well. 395 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 2: We go from our parents who helped soothe us out 396 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 2: into becoming full adults who somehow need to soothe other people. 397 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 1: Right, and then. 398 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 2: Something happens in our life and we're totally thrown off 399 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 2: course we don't know how to deal with it inside 400 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 2: of ourselves. Betrayal is unique because the person that you 401 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 2: would turn to for coregulation soothing is now the person 402 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 2: who has hurt you. And so that's why learning how 403 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 2: to self soothe is so critical during this time. Because 404 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 2: when women come into my office and men, I'll just 405 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 2: keep adding that, shout out both shout out to the 406 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 2: betrayed men. They they are looking to their spouse historically 407 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 2: to be a co soother with them, and their spouse 408 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 2: is gone, is doing the right, and their emotions reinforce 409 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:20,239 Speaker 2: their unfaithful spouse's guilt and shame, and so suddenly the 410 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 2: betrayed is spiraling all by themselves. And I mean, that's 411 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 2: why people drink, That's why people turn to other coping mechanisms. 412 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 2: But what I find with the betrayed party is they 413 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 2: keep on turning to their unfaithful for soothing, not get it, 414 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 2: and then around and around we go. 415 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 1: I feel like I've been having a few conversations with 416 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: women who were like in this situation with a man 417 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:48,120 Speaker 1: where the man maybe was unfaithful or like was lying 418 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: or was just not being completely honest, and then ended 419 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 1: up like leaving. I'm thinking of one friend specifically, and 420 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,880 Speaker 1: I feel like so often the women who are left 421 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: still sort of put that person on a pedestal and 422 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: they don't want to make them out to be a 423 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 1: bad person. It's like this girlfriend of mine was talking 424 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,919 Speaker 1: to me about a guy that had betrayed her, and 425 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,400 Speaker 1: I was like, why is it so important for you 426 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: to make me believe he's a good person, Like, I'm 427 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: not understanding why his reputation is important to you. Do 428 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: you see that in your practice? 429 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 2: Sometimes it's self protection because what does it say about 430 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 2: me if I picked. 431 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 1: This person completely? 432 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 2: And also we want to paint a nicer narrative about 433 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 2: that person just to when we're married, you know, obviously, 434 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,880 Speaker 2: like we protect our marriage and we conceal the truth 435 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 2: from people who could support us. In order to try 436 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 2: to work it out together. But that really hurts betrayed 437 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 2: spouses often because they don't get the support that they need, 438 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 2: they don't get the clarity that they need because they're 439 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 2: trying to work it out with the person who's even 440 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 2: more confused than they are, in order to protect the relationship. 441 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 2: But usually it's self protection. And also I think it 442 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 2: goes back to those worthiness wounds honestly that we were 443 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,880 Speaker 2: talking about earlier. So they were unfaithful, it must mean 444 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 2: something about me. So sometimes we do put that person, well, 445 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 2: obviously they're better than me because they betrayed me. Now 446 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 2: it does not always got a case. 447 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: No, I see that completely. I see that thought process happening. 448 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 1: How do you get your clients to like get out 449 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 1: of that headspace? 450 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,919 Speaker 2: You have to build your worthiness and oftentimes it was 451 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 2: never there to begin with. It was never there to 452 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 2: begin with. So sometimes the person who went outside of 453 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 2: the relationship to get what they wanted, they had this 454 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 2: sense of entitlement in a way that the betrayed needs 455 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 2: a little bit of totally. And I don't mean to 456 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 2: transgress a relationship, no, I just mean feel better about 457 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:48,640 Speaker 2: yourself completely. 458 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 1: Well, there was always like a piece of me who 459 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: and still now like my mom will wish that they 460 00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: had stayed together, and like she's still like yearns. I 461 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 1: think a little for the idea she had on their 462 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 1: wedding day. How do you help people build a sense 463 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: of worthiness? How does someone really do that? Yeah, there's 464 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: a lot of huge how do you start? 465 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, your mom's story is so important because there's so 466 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 2: much pain and grief you take with you always. You know, 467 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 2: I can feel one hundred times better than I did 468 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,479 Speaker 2: before this happened in my marriage, and I still have 469 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 2: pain and grief over the loss of my family, over 470 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 2: the loss of my marriage. These are stories we never 471 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 2: saw for ourselves, and it can be really hard to 472 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 2: weave a new tapestry and make sense of it being 473 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 2: our story now. So there's a little bit of resistance 474 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:47,200 Speaker 2: there to the full acceptance, and there's pain in that. 475 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 1: Now. 476 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 2: The other piece of it is we have to let 477 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 2: someone go who wasn't choosing us, obviously, and all of that. 478 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,959 Speaker 2: But what I sense in your mom's story is the 479 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 2: sadness of not having had the chance. So what I 480 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 2: mean by that is is that when someone has an affair, 481 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 2: they have chosen to leave the relationship before it's over, 482 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 2: before it's taken its last gasping breaths. And in my 483 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 2: case as well, I remember thinking constantly I didn't even 484 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 2: have a chance. If I had known something was wrong, 485 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 2: if I had known there was something he needed, if 486 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 2: I had known, If I had known, if I had known, 487 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 2: I would have done. 488 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: Something about it. 489 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 2: And then it's too late when you finally get the 490 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 2: chance to go to bat for your marriage and it 491 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 2: doesn't work because they're gone already. 492 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: It's like every time I see a married couple, and 493 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: as a child of divorce, I sum it up in 494 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: my head, are they going to work? Are they not? 495 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: But what is like your advice to a young couple 496 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:51,719 Speaker 1: to truthfully avoid getting there? What can women do? What 497 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: can men do before it's finally happening, to make sure 498 00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: like communication is honest, things are coming out, men feel 499 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,439 Speaker 1: like they can really say how they feel and what 500 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: they need. What is the advice you give? 501 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,479 Speaker 2: You said the word honest. Yeah, that's what it is. 502 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,880 Speaker 2: Because there's no safeguard against infidelity, right, all you can 503 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 2: do is try to keep a commitment to honesty that 504 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 2: has to start inside of you self. Honesty comes before 505 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 2: honesty outside of yourself, and so. 506 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: It is not easy. No, exactly for both parties, exactly 507 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: for the betrayed and the betrayer. How did you personally 508 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 1: get to a place of being betrayed to a place 509 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 1: where you could trust again? 510 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 2: Are you assuming I trust again? 511 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: I'm thinking maybe no. 512 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 2: You know, I've always been a trusting person, for better 513 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 2: and for worse. That person who like leaves their laptop 514 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 2: out in Starbucks and walk somewhere else, you know. Yeah, yeah, 515 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 2: so I've been a trusting person. Now self trust is 516 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 2: the anecdote to the fear of trusting again. So when 517 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 2: I'm afraid because I'm in a partnership and he could 518 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 2: hurt me again, I have to say to myself, I 519 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 2: survived once, I will survive again. If someone does this 520 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 2: to me, it's not a reflection of me, right, it's 521 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 2: a reflection of them. I need to talk myself through 522 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 2: those fears. So it's really about do I trust myself 523 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 2: to take care of myself, to show up for myself 524 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 2: in a time of need, Whereas I never had to 525 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 2: ask myself those questions before. So I can trust my 526 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 2: partner because I trust myself. 527 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: I have an issue with self trust. I have a 528 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: very hard time making a decision on my own and 529 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: feeling one hundred percent confident about it, Like I need opinions, 530 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:42,959 Speaker 1: I need advice, I need someone to tell me what 531 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: to do all of the time. Where do you start 532 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: with forming that self trust? Where do you tell women 533 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: to begin? 534 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, what would it be like for you to have 535 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 2: to make a decision without outsourcing it? So it's literally 536 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 2: built over time, one question into yourself at a time, 537 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 2: from that moment of self soothing, what do I need 538 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 2: right now? 539 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: This whole podcast was born out of the idea of 540 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: understanding that like male validation and a romantic partner and 541 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: like romantic chaos was like taking up so much in 542 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: my life, and it's been like a project that's been 543 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: in the works, I guess for like a little over 544 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: two years now, and I feel the self trust like 545 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: slowly coming back. 546 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 2: That's even more important for someone like you because part 547 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 2: of the reason you had to step back is that 548 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 2: you didn't trust yourself enough to be in relationship and 549 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 2: not lose yourself right, And so if you're used to 550 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 2: looking outside of yourself for the answers or the insight 551 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 2: or how you should feel, you need to strengthen that 552 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 2: before you can step in with someone else and be 553 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 2: a whole person. 554 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: Okay, this is a question we ask everybody at the 555 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 1: end of every interview because we talk a lot about unlearning, 556 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 1: you know, seeing those narratives, those stories that like generational 557 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: pattern that maybe you're trying to untangle. What is one 558 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: thing about love you've had to unlearn. 559 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 2: That it's earned growing up and internalizing lessons that love 560 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 2: is earned. Love is something you can control by controlling 561 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 2: the other person's experience. That's that codependency you speak of. 562 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 2: But love that's unconditional, That's that's real love. Yeah, and 563 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 2: that's what I've come to learn and know the difference between. 564 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: And I think we can all remind ourselves of that. Yes, 565 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 1: you know. Okay, Well, thank you so much. 566 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 2: Thank you. 567 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: This is amazing for me. 568 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 2: This was wonderful for me too. Was it as good 569 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 2: for you? 570 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: Thank you so much to Lauren for coming on and 571 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: bearing with all of my questions and thoughts about cheating. 572 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: This conversation was a long time, so I had a 573 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: lot to say. If you're healing from cheating wounds, I 574 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: highly recommend Lauren's book Beyond Infidelity and truly hope that 575 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 1: you're able to find the light at the end of 576 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: this terrible, heartbreaking tunnel. Thanks everyone for listening, and I'll 577 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: talk to y'all next week. Boy Sover is a production 578 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: of iHeart Podcasts. I'm your host, Hopewordard. Our executive producers 579 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 1: are Christina Everett and Julie Pinero. Our supervising producer is 580 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 1: Emily Meronoff. Our assistant producer is Logan Palau. Engineering by 581 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: Bahid Fraser and mixing and mastering by Abou Zafar. If 582 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: you liked this episode, please tell a friend and don't 583 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: forget to rate, review, and subscribe to boy Sober on 584 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: the iHeart read You app, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you 585 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: get your favorite shows.