WEBVTT - Mass Appeal: How a Graffiti Zine Turned Entertainment Brand Changed Media 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:04.880 We were almost out of business, literally, like we had 0:00:04.880 --> 0:00:06.760 no way to pay the printer back. I don't think 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:08.960 we had any employees, a couple of interns, but like 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:11.440 that was it. We weren't going to make another issue. 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:12.800 We couldn't. 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:25.680 Welcome to Idea Generations All Angles, a podcast about culture's 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:31.760 most influential brands and the teams that built them. If 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:35.040 you're an entrepreneur, creative, or anyone interested in harnessing the 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:38.800 power of collaboration, join me Noah Callahan Bever each week 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:42.600 as we dissect the most dynamic companies in culture, because 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:45.440 the only way to truly understand success is to look 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:49.920 at it from all angles. Idea Generations All Angles is 0:00:49.960 --> 0:01:02.200 a Will Packer Media podcast. In nineteen ninety six, Adrian 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:05.199 Mohler and Patrick Alassek published the first issue of mass 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:11.080 Appeal magazine. In the nearly three decades that followed, mass 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:14.160 Appeal would grow from an underground graffiti zine into a 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:18.840 culture defining, multifaceted entertainment brand with a hand in everything 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:23.240 from digital content to music distribution, to full length documentaries 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:29.920 and much much more. However, the rise of Massapel has 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:33.880 been anything but straightforward. From barely legal circulation schemes, at 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:37.240 bankruptcy to a shocking death in the family, The brand 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:41.720 has endured extraordinary challenges and still through it all risen 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:46.520 like a phoenix. On this week's episode of All Angles, 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:50.040 we talked to co founder Adrian Mohler, former creative director 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:53.960 Sasha Jenkins, as well as current CEO Peter Bittenbender and 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:57.520 rap legend slash partner Nas to hear the tale of 0:01:57.560 --> 0:02:01.400 two mass appeals and understand how a brand can rise, fall, 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:04.920 and rise again thanks to an ensemble cast of elite, 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:08.760 like minded culture creators. But before any of that happened, 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:12.120 decades before Massapeel would release a string of smash Nas 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:15.639 albums or produce an epic four part Wu Tang documentary, 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:19.000 there were just two teenagers running around the streets of Washington, 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:21.359 d C. With dreams of getting in touch with their 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:22.400 graffiti idols. 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:27.760 I was living in McLean, Virginia, which is a suburb 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:28.240 of DC. 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:32.200 This is Adrian Moehler, co founder of Mass Appeal magazine. 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:35.200 I had a crew of my dare like friends, and 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:38.920 all we cared about in life was graffiti, riding on walls, 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:43.680 riding on freight trains, and during high school, you know, 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:46.239 we would sneak out at night go paint in the city. 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:48.600 We were like a crew of like, I don't know 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:51.720 seven of us, and I think five of us started 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:54.240 doing graffiti at the same time we sucked. We'd paint 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:57.519 like underneath overpasses in the suburbs, and back then, you know, 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:00.880 obviously there was no Internet, so we would like subway 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:03.320 art or any kind of book or magazine we could 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:06.119 get her hands on, and kind of quickly realized that 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:09.919 we didn't have a lot of talent in the traditional sense, 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:14.640 but we loved excitement and loved doing daredevil shit, so 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:17.480 like bombing aspect of graffiti really appealed to us, being 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:21.000 willing to be uncomfortable, risking getting in trouble and just 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:22.399 getting up as much as possible. 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:27.160 Pat and Adrian were in love with graffiti and the 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:30.000 outlawed lifestyle that came with it, but they knew that 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:33.359 where their talent might be limiting, their passion had no bounds, 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:36.240 and they wanted to participate in the culture. So they 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:39.280 decided to document it in a magazine, a magazine that 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:41.040 they would call mass appeal. 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:47.360 At that point, we had already been doing graffiti for 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:49.640 a while by the time I graduated, I had moved 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:51.839 to New York to go to Pratt. We talked about 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:54.119 a little bit like oh yea, we should do magazine, 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:55.840 but you know, it was just drum talk, like nothing 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:59.680 ever came of it. And somehow Pat was just like yo, 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:02.760 I yea like five grand from my grandparents. I don't 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:04.520 know where you got it, but and he found like 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:07.360 a printer that like it was in DC. You know, 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:09.960 I think he said they printed like National Geographic, which 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:14.040 in hindsight I really doubt. I used the photo labbit Pratt. 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:16.279 They had a scanner. I would design like half the 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:18.840 magazine and photoshop. He did a couple of pages and 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:21.159 I still have the floppy disc that says mass Appeal 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:22.799 on it, and then I would mail him that disc. 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:25.480 I honestly didn't think anything would ever come of it, 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:29.160 but then he actually got this thing printed. That's how 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:32.560 mass Appeal one was born. We had a bunch of 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:34.800 copies and we would just go to stores and put 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:38.120 them on consignment and get them out there. And in hindsight, 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:41.120 I mean, the magazine looked terrible, but it just proved 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:44.960 us that these like kind of nineteen year old like 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:47.680 fuck up kids could make something just by having like 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:50.360 a magazine. We were able to get like a couple 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:52.840 of sponsors for the next one, a couple of graffiti 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:55.080 stores that took it, and like people were mailing us 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:57.080 shit like that was incredible. I mean we did not 0:04:57.240 --> 0:04:59.359 put a lot of these out. Most of them probably 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:00.720 are still in this ba you know what I mean, 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:04.599 the other's mom's basement. But somehow it would get passed around 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:06.839 to different graph writers and we would just get these 0:05:06.920 --> 0:05:09.680 envelopes with pictures in them, and we were like, wow, 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:11.840 this is actually like reaching people. 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:19.359 Despite its limited print run, somehow Mass Appeal got around 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:23.280 and overnight the guys started receiving inbound submissions from graph 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:26.000 writers looking to be featured in the mag With very 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:29.520 little strategy but a lot of authenticity, Mass Appeal had 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:30.400 found an audience. 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:34.440 It was awesome in hindsight, I think it made us 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:38.359 feel important. Rob from Alife said it really eloquently, you know. 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:40.720 Mass Appeal like at the beginning was kind of like 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:44.640 a blog or social media before there was that for 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:48.039 that culture. There were a couple other graphmags out there, 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:51.000 but there wasn't a ton of ways to like communicate 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:55.560 with everyone. People really treasured those magazines. Code from the 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:58.839 Bronx mailed us like some really nice pictures, and we 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:01.240 always were like, how did these magazines get all these pictures? 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:03.200 We just figured because you know, graft guys are so 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:07.200 like secretive, nobody would like ostentatiously just mail a bunch 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:09.599 of pictures. But they did, and we got cool shit, 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:11.760 you know, and we were just like, dude, like we 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:16.679 should do this again. Pat moved to New York fairly quickly. 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:18.600 He was my roommate in New York. I had this 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:22.560 like rent controlled four bedroom apartment at two thirty four 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:26.239 Saint James's Place, which Biggie Small was like two thirty 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:29.360 two or something. It was like right next door. It 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:32.760 was this huge apartment, and I had a couple of roommates. 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:34.680 I think my rand was six hundred bucks for the 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:37.440 whole thing, so I literally like lived there for free. 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:40.000 We had a little office, you know. For the two 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:41.960 years or something, we worked out of there. 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:47.719 As Pat and Adrian worked to keep massive Field's business growing, 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:50.520 each fell into natural roles that suited them best. 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:53.760 I could still picture Patt just chain smoking cigarettes in 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:55.800 this little office. It was like boiler room I mean 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:57.560 probably probably make five hundre phone calls today, Like he 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:00.720 didn't give a shit. He was relentless as good as 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:02.800 the sales stuff. But I was good at making like 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:07.039 decks and sponsorship ideas and whatnot. That was always really 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:10.360 good at talking to people and good at sales. And 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:12.480 you know, his dad was always in sales and taught 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:15.000 him a lot, always gave us great advice, and so 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:17.560 that was just a natural thing for him to do. 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:22.000 I had gone to art school for photography, so I 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:25.120 love the whole creative aspect of it. The printing thing 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:27.440 was kind of just a by product of that, because 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:29.080 you know, I was good at doing like the pre 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:31.760 press stuff and some of the graphic design, and I 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:34.240 just enjoyed it too. And a big thing that I like, too, 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:37.360 was just kind of collaborating with creative people, like in hindsight, 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:39.680 like that was my favorite part of the magazine, just 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:43.360 working closely with some really awesome, sometimes really wacky, but 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:49.600 just highly creative designers, photographers, whatever, and just making cool shit. 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:54.960 The first five issues were just really like hand to mouth, 0:07:55.240 --> 0:08:00.000 Like Tower Records would take a bunch of magazines and 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:02.280 they would pay us like half the money for them 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:06.200 almost like upfront, and like that check would bankroll us 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:09.280 get like maybe ten thousand dollars in advertising, not a lot, 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:11.280 but we don't really have any overhead, you know. We 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:12.200 were like poor kids. 0:08:13.960 --> 0:08:17.000 As Pad and Adrian continued to drop issues, their process 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:19.560 evolved and they found ways to become more efficient, and 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:21.960 with the help of Pat's mom's credit card and the 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:25.239 generous return policy at best Buy, mass Appeal was able 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:25.920 to level up. 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:30.560 We really lucked into the timing of that right because 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:34.240 desktop publishing became like possible. That was kind of that whole, 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:38.000 like Quark Express Photoshop probably one point zero, I don't remember, 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:40.400 but we would say, Pats mom's credit card, go to 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:42.920 like comp Usa or best Buy, buy all the shit 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:45.040 we needed, use it for a week, and then return 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:47.480 it all. And then at the same time, the roots 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:48.920 were kind of spreading a little bit. 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:52.480 As mass Appeal started to make a name for itself 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:55.719 within graffiti culture, Adrian and Pat looked to differentiate the 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:59.000 book within the graph scene landscape, so they avoided featuring 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:02.520 overly wrought legal walls and made mass apeels beat high 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:03.240 wire bombing. 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:06.440 We were like, we're going to put more bombing into 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:09.560 it and writers that took bigger risks. We tried not 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:11.559 to put a ton of legal walls in the magazine 0:09:11.600 --> 0:09:14.400 and the people that we interviewed. We wanted someone that 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:17.360 was either just put it all on the line every night, 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:21.760 or someone that overcame a lot of obstacles and made 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:24.840 a successful career out of it, someone like Todd James, 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:26.800 you know, that had like an incredible amount of talent 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:32.400 but then transcended that into a successful career outside of it, 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:34.440 but without like turning his back on it. I don't 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:36.760 know if we really wrote that down or anything, but 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:38.640 in hindsight, that's kind of what we tried to do. 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:41.719 I pretty quickly realized, like this is only going to 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:44.040 go so far. No, like this was fun. I had 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:46.240 to get a job. I was working for Martha Stewart 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:49.520 Magazine for a while and using her color printer after 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:52.200 hours to print like thousands of media kids. I mean 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:54.120 they had this like printer like the size of a 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:57.040 small room, and you know, I got caught at the 0:09:57.400 --> 0:10:01.560 and quit, but but literally print like thousands of these things. 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:04.079 It kind of worked. But then like we were almost 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:06.240 out of business, literally, like we had no way to 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:08.760 pay the printer back. I don't think we had any employees, 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:11.320 a couple of interns, but like that was it. You know, 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:13.560 we weren't going to make another issue. We couldn't. 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:19.920 Internally, the future of Mass Appeal may have been in jeopardy. However, 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:22.760 in the streets the magazine was gaining heat, and they 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:26.360 organically caught the attention of another pioneering publisher in their space. 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:29.839 I did a graffiti zine when I was a kid, 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:32.560 and they weren't many zines at the time, and maybe 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:34.280 two or three in the entire world. 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:37.120 This is Sasha Jenkins, who, among other things, is an 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:41.080 acclaimed documentary filmmaker, author, and co founder of the legendary 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:42.959 culture publication Ego Trip. 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:47.040 So Mass Appeal was a zine that I kept up with, 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:49.840 and I noticed an evolution. They started to have interviews 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:54.280 with rappers and great photography, and you know, I bought it. 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:56.959 I was a fan. Sasha kept a close eye on 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.599 the landscape because in nineteen ninety as a teenager in 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:02.559 a story queens, he self published a graffiti scene called 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:06.240 Graphic Scenes and Explicit Language. Then a couple of years later, 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:09.000 in nineteen ninety two, he had a neighborhood friend Hajji 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:12.640 Akabadi would co found the first hip hop newspaper, beat Down. 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:16.200 Sasha's first projects covered what was then a novel mix 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:19.880 of interests from rap music to skateboarding to graffiti. His 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:23.640 passion for those cultures and independent publishing foreshadow division that 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:24.839 he would bring to mass appeal. 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:29.280 Beatdown was a hip hop newspaper. I started with a 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:32.160 childhood friend and Queens who was like an aspiring producer 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:34.160 who had worked in Marley Marl and had done things 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:36.320 in the music industry. And I had my relationships with 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:38.439 artists and photographers, and we came together and did a 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:41.880 hip hop newspaper called Beatdown in nineteen ninety two. Was 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:44.480 printed at a place right across the street from Queensbridge 0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:47.080 Housing projects where they printed newspapers, and it cost us 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:49.439 about six hundred and fifty dollars for the first issue. 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:51.840 I was there for about a year. We got Tommy 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:54.040 Boyd to buy the back cover, which paid for everything 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:57.360 for at least a year. Beatdown had done a party 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:01.080 with KRS one and we were giving out newspapers and 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:04.240 I gave it to a gentleman named Elliott Wilson. I said, 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:06.800 I know you from high school, and then Hodgi went 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:08.439 up to him and said, I know you from college. 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:11.079 So we both kind of randomly knew him, not directly 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:14.440 but seen him around. So he called our voicemail and 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:16.720 said he wanted to be down with us, and Elliott 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:20.320 Wilson got down with beat Down. Eventually, me and Hodgy 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:22.480 had a falling out where we didn't agree on what 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:24.080 the direction of the magazine. 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:29.680 Eventually, Sasha would part ways with Hodji and lead beat Down. However, 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:32.880 music editor Elliott Wilson would come with him too, and 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:35.680 after a short hiatus, the two would secure seed money 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:39.040 from Star Wars producer Henry Chalfont and list beat Down 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:42.959 critic Jeffrey chairman Mao and co create a new Brandon magazine, 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:43.920 Ego Trip. 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:51.079 Sometime later in ninety four, myself and Elliott started Ego 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:55.640 Trip Magazine. Ego Trip Magazine was a free magazine in 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.600 New York. It wasn't all hip hop. It was skateboarding, 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:01.360 it was graffiti. It was all of my interests sort 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:04.960 of crystallized in a magazine. Elliott loved hip hop, but 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:07.600 he was open to the idea of doing something a 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:10.800 little different, and my argument was what purpose are we 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:15.160 serving creating another hip hop magazine? What advertisers it's gonna 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:17.000 want to fuck with us, right, Why don't we offer 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:20.320 something that's more expansive that can get more advertisers. Maybe 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:22.480 we'll get a skate brand, maybe we'll get a clothing brand. Right, 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:24.760 So that's how I was thinking at the time. So 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:28.880 at first it was myself, Elliott Wilson, and Jeff Chairman Mao, 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:32.319 who was affiliated with a place I was interning at 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:35.640 called Third World Newsreel. There was a magazine called Rap 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:39.200 Pages out of California and they had a section called 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:43.440 Underground Zine. So the Gabe Alvarez, who was the editor there, 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:45.560 reached out to us and said, hey, we want to 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:47.959 interview you guys about your zine. We think it's really cool. 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:51.560 So he gave interviews us and then we fly to 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:54.160 California to do a Cypersil cover story. We meet Gabe 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:57.280 in person, we hit it off. We say to Gabe, 0:13:57.320 --> 0:13:59.800 why don't you move to New York and work on 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:02.920 this ego trip thing. He decides to move to New 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:04.400 York and he moves to my mother's house in the 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:06.600 story of Queen's Because we didn't have that much money, 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:10.840 but my mom was like, I'll put your boy up. Eventually, 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:14.960 Gabe convinced or encouraged Brent Rollins, who was the art 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:18.280 director at rad Page's, to come to New York, which 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:21.760 he does. And then once Brent came on board, I 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:25.200 mean he's, you know, obviously a fabulous artist, super talented guy. 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:28.640 How brands come together is obviously the talent and the 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:31.480 vision that everyone has, but it's also magic. It's also 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:35.320 like you can't explain, you know. I look at Ego Trippez, 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:37.880 a band that I was in, and we put out 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:40.920 some great records and they stand a test of time 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:41.680 and we move on. 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:52.240 Ego Trip did indeed put out some classics, and I 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:54.520 know because I was fortunate enough to be part of it. 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:57.280 As a young intern. I looked up to Sasha and 0:14:57.320 --> 0:14:59.800 I was eventually able to work with him at Well, 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:04.280 we'll get into that later. Meanwhile, at Mass Appeal, things 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:07.040 were still looking pretty bleak for Patent Adrian. The guys 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:09.040 were down to their last dollar and it looked like 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:11.480 they had published their last issue, but with a lucky 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:14.320 bounce and a little help from their NYC Graffiti network 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:17.480 of writers like Saysan Ewok. Things would change overnight. 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:25.240 Mountain dew called us and we're like, we need breakdancers 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:27.760 to make a video commercial. Do you guys do that? 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:30.320 And we'll like, yeah, of course we have breakdancers. Of 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:33.360 course we didn't know any breakdancers. But it turned out 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:38.160 that ewalkdrew out of breakdance and Pat somehow got Saysa's 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:42.240 studio keys and we like filmed this commercial with them 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:44.200 there and I think they paid us like twenty thousand 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:47.320 dollars for it. At that time, like we were billionaires, 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:49.400 Like that was like more money than we had ever seen, 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:52.240 and we were just like yes and able to do 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:53.280 another issue. 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:57.800 Having gotten a taste of blue chip advertiser money, Pat 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:00.600 and Adrian had an appetite for more, but they felt 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:03.360 that the magazines rough around the edge of aesthetic was gating, 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:05.840 so they reached out to a Life, the independent New 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:09.360 York culture brand to help Who's eponymous streetwear line and 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:12.360 Rivington club sneaker boutique defined downtown cool. 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:18.160 There was other magazines coming out and they had better 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:20.040 ads than we did, nicer paper, all this stuff, and 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:22.120 we're like, man, we want to step it up, but like, 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:25.240 how do we do that and then you had a 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:27.240 place like a life that opened up. And meeting those 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:29.640 guys is when Massive fel really changed for the better 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:32.920 because my vision was an experience was just really limited. 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:35.000 I knew I liked better stuff, but I didn't know 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:37.880 how to do it that original A Life crew they 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:40.080 were like a generation older than me. They'd had like 0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:43.600 real jobs in publishing, could like really make shit happen. 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:46.240 So many people I felt were just like full of 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:50.600 shit and didn't have like the life experience to back 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:53.440 it up, and those guys did, especially Rob. They were 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:55.760 able to take like the Iraq crew and a lot 0:16:55.760 --> 0:16:58.560 of those early photographers and mix that up and put 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:02.080 some dope content together. Making those guys do the creative 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:05.320 directors of Mass Appeal at the time was awesome. 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:08.600 With a Life in the mixed creatively, Mass Appeal became 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:12.320 a more sophisticated product, both for consumers and advertisers alike. 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:15.920 As soon as we made a few bucks, we got 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:19.080 an office, and then a Life helped make the magazine 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:22.600 cool to bigger advertisers, and once we stopped work with 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:24.320 them at that point, we kind of had to figure 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:27.720 it out. Been around in photo shoots and creative directors 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:29.360 and all this stuff to figure out how to hire 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:31.600 our own and we kind of had the recipe down 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:33.280 and then we're like, okay, you know, we could do 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:36.200 this six times a year. It became a little easier. 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:39.800 At the time, there were probably like one hundred, you know, 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:43.840 advertisers like the Stucy and the Vans that supported things 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:46.240 like mass Appeal. I mean that's just so important, you know, 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:49.240 because without those companies, I think it couldn't have happened. 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:54.200 Support from other independent brands was instrumental in keeping the 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:56.399 lights on it Mass Appeal, but they would need to 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:59.240 start landing corporate advertisers if they really wanted to grow. 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:03.159 We started kind of upselling it to the Cools and 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:05.840 the Scions and the Fords, and we started getting like 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:08.919 real advertisers. I remember when we did like a million 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:11.640 dollars in revenue for the year, and I was just. 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:14.800 Like, dude, I'm a millionaire, like you know, And yeah, 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:17.800 obviously there was nothing left of that million dollars, probably 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:20.679 less than that after paying everybody, but that just felt 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:23.199 really really good, Like I felt like we made it 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:26.320 on average, probably did like one hundred thousand dollars in 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:27.720 ads per issue. 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:30.520 We always just plow it right back in because there's 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:32.600 always something that needed to get you know, we needed 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:36.320 a phone system, we needed a graphic designer or whatever. 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:38.840 You know, there's always a list of shit that needed 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:41.359 to get bought. You know that that never ended. 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:47.480 As the overhead grew, the team found creative ways to 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:50.119 increase their ad revenue. Going out of business was not 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:53.000 an option. So without any other recourse, and in order 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:56.000 to stay cash flow positive, Pat and Adrian were forced 0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:58.919 to make some ethically questionable moves. 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:01.720 We had all these people that needed to get paid, 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:04.639 and the only way we could bring in more money 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:07.280 was by just saying that we printed more copies than 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:10.520 we did. So we did a thousand copies, and then 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:14.400 two and then five, and then we'd go after these 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:17.199 like real advertisers and they're like, we don't advertise with 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:20.800 anybody that prints less than fifty thousand copies. So well, 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:23.560 we do fifty thousand, and then of course we're like, 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:25.920 well wait a minute, if they'll pay eight thousand dollars 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:29.359 for that, they'll pay sixteen thousand if we say we 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:31.320 do one hundred and twenty five thousands. And then it 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:34.480 just kept going up. And up and up, and it 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:37.600 just became more and more unbelievable. The printer was cool 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:39.880 as shit. You would give me like fake receipts if 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:42.600 somebody asked for it. Forget just how many were printed, 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:44.639 Like we couldn't even distribute that many, you know, so 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:46.960 like Tower would keep taking you know, I don't know 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:49.600 what they took, fucking five thousand copies and send us 0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:51.479 the half of them back like a year later. And 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:53.960 then at that point we did have real distribution. But 0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:56.760 you know, MASSI Appeal is never like a newstand magazine 0:19:56.880 --> 0:19:59.439 like it would be on some newstands and you know, 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:01.680 Barnes and Old what was cool, Like we couldn't afford 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:04.080 like the front window placement, and even we could have 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:06.600 like what about it, you know, like it's like a 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:09.080 very niche thing. I mean, that was definitely like a 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:12.320 house of cards waiting to fall down, just because it 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:14.400 had to keep going up because we had no other 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:17.400 way to increase the revenue or we would have just gone. 0:20:17.400 --> 0:20:20.119 Our business. 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:23.120 Money was always very tight. 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:25.320 We used to have this peel box we would always check, 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:27.639 and I swear to that it was never any fucking 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:29.720 money in it. We'd wait in line for twenty minutes 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:32.639 at the post office and be like, sure, you don't. 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:35.200 Have any mail for us, and maybe a check fell off. 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:37.879 Could you check again? And it was very stressful to 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:41.200 make payroll and just have the cash fload. Even though 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:44.280