WEBVTT - Listener Mail: The Fires of Orc 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.840 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:05.840 --> 0:00:14.160 Works dot com. Hey you wasn't the Stuff to Blow 0:00:14.200 --> 0:00:17.040 your mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:19.599 and we find ourselves here. This is you know, every 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:21.840 year people ask, hey, how do you get all the 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:24.319 episodes into the vault so they can one day become 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:28.040 Vault episodes. Well, today's the day. It's it's ongoing. Uh. 0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:33.280 Carney has been loading the episodes from into the vault 0:00:33.680 --> 0:00:36.440 all day and then at the end of that effort, 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:39.040 there was, of course in a New Year's Eve party. 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:42.280 So Carney is pretty worn out. Man. I am so 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:47.200 sick of the sound Carney makes when he's backing up. Yeah, 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:48.720 it's it's it's a bit annoying, but you know, he 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:51.159 has to back up, especially when he's carrying the heavier loads, 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:53.840 such as, uh, the episode in the Ark of the Covenant. 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:56.280 But but I'm glad that has been filed away in 0:00:56.280 --> 0:00:58.400 the vault as well. Yeah, but we're just gonna have 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:00.560 to get it back out again when those top top 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:05.120 men show up to look at it. Uh. So, yeah, 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:06.959 it's it's it's been a fun year and we're about 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:09.160 to enter into a new year for stuff to blow 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:11.160 your mind. I think it's gonna be pretty exciting. We 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:15.040 already have some some some pretty fabulous topics lined up there. 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:17.280 So of course other topics we've been meaning to get 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:21.640 to Allen that are now going to be twenty nineteen episodes, 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:23.320 like you know, you know what I realized as we 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:26.960 never did Science of Highlander too. I know it's we 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:30.400 We've been trying all year twenty nineteen. It must happen. 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:33.039 Because I want to lie and say it's our most 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:35.759 requested episode. I don't think that's true. It's the most 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:39.080 requested by by by us. But um, and then we 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:41.000 have a lot of sway over what gets done. We 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:42.720 just we just need to make an effort to it 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:45.840 to both see it again. Um. But I also want 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:48.360 to do Highlander two because there are other movie based 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:51.640 episodes that I would love to to cover. I would 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:56.200 love to really just dig into uh David Cronenberg video drume, 0:01:56.280 --> 0:01:59.200 for example, I was rewatching parts of that for an 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:02.280 episode we're gonna recording that you know where we only 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:04.920 like marginally mentioned video drum. But there's so much meat 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:07.520 on the bone there well, especially in the digital age, 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:10.760 the way. Basically, I think we're living in a world 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:14.320 where we have all become Max Wren, brainwashed by media 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:17.560 and turned into killing machines that are doing the bidding 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:20.840 of the people who create our media. Yeah, indeed, I 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:24.040 think they're they're I think the metaphor is even stronger now. 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:28.520 But today we're doing the listener mail thing. Carney is 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:30.840 is going to be roused just enough so that he 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:34.440 might deliver some listener mail to us, and we once more. 0:02:34.800 --> 0:02:37.840 Another month passes, and we have a number of great 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:42.160 bits of listener correspondence to refer to here. Alright, so 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:44.160 we already mentioned the Ark of the Covenant. Maybe we 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:46.200 should look at some mail on the subject of the 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:47.960 ark now, if you haven't heard it. We did a 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:50.840 couple of episodes in November. I think was it November. 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:53.120 When do we do those episodes? I believe it was 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:55.520 the first week in December because it ended up accidentally 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:58.280 corresponding with Hanukah this year. Okay, Well, anyway, we're talking 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:00.880 about the legendary artifact, the r of the Covenant as 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:03.520 it has appeared in of course in the Bible, but 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:07.840 in Indiana Jones movies and then in these scientific interpretations 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:10.760 where people are sort of practicing what we called bronze punk, 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:14.080 where they look back to legends and myths from the 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:17.040 Bronze Age and say, what what if actually people were 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:20.360 using some kind of science or technology here. Uh. And 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:22.800 so Amelia gets in touch with us in response to 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:25.520 these episodes, she says, Hey, Rob and Joe, your Ak 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:27.639 of the Covenant episodes are officially two of my all 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:31.040 time favorites as an unabashed lover of ancient history, both 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:34.960 academic and pseudo scientific. I was glued to my earbuds. 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:39.360 Your discussion of the mutilated Dagon statue and subsequent plagues 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:42.240 got me thinking, now, remember the story here, the ideas 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:45.040 that the Philistines. There's a story told in the Bible 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:48.880 where the Philistines took the arc from the ancient Israelites. 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:51.400 They took it to the temple of Dagon, their god. 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:54.320 But then the arc did a bunch of mischief while 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:57.880 it was among the Philistines. It destroyed the statue of 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:00.760 their god Dagon, and it in it up, giving them 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:05.080 what the original translation into English called immrods in their 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:07.040 secret parts. Right. And we had a lot of fun 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:10.600 in that episode looking at various theories regarding what those 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:13.640 immerrods could have been. Now, we always need to be clear, 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:16.599 we're not necessarily advocating the idea that this is like 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:19.880 a record of a historical event that actually needs explanation. 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:22.640 But what could these people haven't have had in mind? 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:27.000 So Amelia continues, Why would the ark myth choose mice 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:31.479 and quote immerrods in the philistines secret parts as a 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:35.000 specific punishment related to the defiling of their patron God? 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:38.839 Could these two plagues have had particular significance relating to 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:42.120 Dagon's role in Philistinian culture? And this is a great 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:44.880 question because so many of the answers were looking at 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:47.080 it from the modern perspective. They were saying, Hey, we 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:50.800 know that mice and uh and in certain swellings, we 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:52.960 can we can sort of build a plague theory out 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:55.919 of that bubonic plague theory. But indeed, like, what is 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:59.600 the original context? Yeah? So yeah, and what would this, 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:02.159 what with this imagery have meant to the people who 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:06.040 compose this story, so Amelia continues. In college, I took 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:08.440 a class on Biblical legs of Jesus, which refers to 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:12.200 critical and scholarly analysis of the ancient texts Exa Jesus 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:16.919 uses historically relevant, social and mythological lenses to interpret obscure 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:19.880 Biblical passages. One of the first things you learn from 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:22.520 Biblical Legs of Jesus is that the Old Testament is 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:27.279 riddled with allusions to Sumerian mythology. I won't bog down 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:30.480 this email with specific cases, but the overall effect is 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:34.200 a vivid illustration of an era fraught with interfaith lore. 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:37.839 The Abrahamic nomads of the Old Testament did not likely 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:43.279 operate within the metaphysical monotheism which characterizes later Christian theology. 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:46.279 In modern terms, we may interpret the Jews devotion to 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:51.320 Yahweh using a contemporary Christian concept of one all powerful, 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:56.440 existent deity, but Exajesus studies suggests this conclusion may be faulty. 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:59.320 For the Hebrews of the Bronze Age Fertile Crescent, Yahweh 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:03.520 more likely stands as the supreme God nested within a 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:07.680 culture of Sumerian devised polytheism. You alway is not the 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:10.719 only God, but he is the true God, and his 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:14.520 communication with his children of Abraham elicits an important cultural 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:18.560 shift in humanity's philosophy on relation to the divine. I 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:21.200 remember picking up on this as a kid in um 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:23.760 in Sunday school class, because when you're reading those Old 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:27.480 Testament stories, it's clear that there are other gods and 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:31.040 they are doing stuff, and yeah, you know, certain people 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:33.279 may explain them away as oh within other really demons, 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:35.400 but now in the text they really come off as 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:38.000 God's Oh yeah, I think this is absolutely clear. I mean, 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:40.799 this is one of the many cases where the Bible 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:43.640 as a whole, the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:48.320 both represent multiplicities of theologies. You know, they're the writers 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:50.719 who are writing the different books and passages, and even 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:53.040 the stories that were compiled into these books had different 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:55.240 points of view, and so some of them may have 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:58.680 only believed that one God existed. But I think it's 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:01.720 a clear, strong strain of thinking in many books of 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:04.400 the Hebrew Bible that there are other gods. It's just 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:07.920 that there's only one God worth worshiping. There's only one 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:11.320 God that that matters, or only one God that's worthy, 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:13.320 and that is the God of Israel. And so I 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:16.000 think Amelia makes a great point about us, uh, you know, 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:20.040 bringing our sort of uh, bringing one theological context to 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:23.480 an ancient, ancient text, without realizing that it might not 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:27.400 actually be appropriate. Uh So, anyway, she continues, Assuming this 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:30.280 theory is correct, the Hebrew people were well versed in 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:33.680 the religious lore of their geographical heritage. In this case, 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:38.240 Dagon presents as one in a series of older rival entities, 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:42.680 which Yahweh's superiority lays low. Joe notes in your second 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:46.920 episode that Daygone, despite his fishy reputation, was worshiped as 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:50.840 a god of grain and possible sexual fertility. Taking this 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:55.080 into consideration, a plague of mice notorious defilers of grain 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:59.680 seeds past in present is humorously self evident. More disturbing 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:02.920 is the notion that the immrods in the philistines secret 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:06.240 parts may not be hemorrhoids or tumors in the anus, 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:10.040 but growths on the genitalia. Robert mentioned some studies leaning 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:13.200 in this direction regarding a syphilis outbreak, but whether or 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:16.640 not the Ark of the Covenant employed syphilitic biowarfare, the 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:20.280 idea of a disfiguring disease which ravages the genitals of 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:25.640 those whose patron is a fertility god smacks of poetic irony. Again, 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:27.680 I think this is a very good point. I think 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:30.480 that you know, we mentioned this in the episode, like, 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:33.640 is this story about what the Arc did to the Philistines? 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:36.760 Is it supposed to be funny? I think the outcomes 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:40.040 and punishments that they specify for the for the Philistines, 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:42.640 they came up with those because they were supposed to 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:46.720 be funny and like humiliating. I can't help but imagine 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:49.000 the Ark of the Covenant on an open mic stage 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:51.960 with the brick Wall behind it, kind of staring into 0:08:52.000 --> 0:08:54.760 members of the audience. Yes, and so I mean even well, 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:57.160 one funny thing you point out there is the brick wall. 0:08:57.240 --> 0:08:59.440 You know, often you watch the Brick Wall comedian and 0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:01.800 the people in the audience are laughing, But we're today 0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:05.120 like this isn't funny? What's going on? So humor definitely 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:07.840 gets lost, even across a single generation or two. You know, 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:10.200 you look at the stand up comics of the nineteen eighties, 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:14.120 not always funny anymore. Obviously, some amount of humor is 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:17.199 lost between the Bronze Age and now and lost in translation, 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:19.160 so it can be difficult to tell is it supposed 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:21.480 to be funny or not. I think it probably is. 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:23.960 I think this is supposed to be kind of like 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:26.400 in the Miller's Tail when the guy gets the hot 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:30.000 iron in his butt. Anyway, coming back to UH to 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:32.760 finish Amelia's email, she says, in short, Yahweh and his 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:36.000 sacred Arc don't mess around. If this interpretation has legs, 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:39.000 it seems Yahweh not only punishes, but take pain, but 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:43.440 takes pains to customize his outrage to the deity in question. 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:46.800 For people whose history is riddled with oppression and assault, 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:50.440 this sort of justice would hold special significance, possibly even 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.760 dark humor. And then she adds some words of thanks 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:57.079 and so thank you Amelia. Yeah, this makes a great point, 0:09:57.120 --> 0:09:59.920 and I think this really adds to to our consideration 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:01.880 of where these stories come from and what they might 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:04.640 have meant. Yeah, and you know, some night out might 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:07.480 out there might think, well, I like the idea of 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:11.600 the ARC using humorless laser beams to smite its enemies 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:14.480 rather than humor. But we have to remember too that 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:19.560 that far more than than than than laser beams. Humor 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:23.680 is a power that can topple gods and topple uh 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:28.720 tyrannical rule, etcetera. I believe even reading the name of 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:31.080 the rose by and burn of Eco. Absolutely, yeah, and 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:33.080 that is that's one of the big themes in the book, 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:37.360 the power and the danger of comedy. Uh, to to 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:42.839 threaten the power of a divine being. Nothing is more 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:46.480 terrifying to the narcissist and the tyrant than the laughter 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:50.080 that people are unable to contain at him, Right, I mean, 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:51.760 this is the this is the agel power of the 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:55.480 you know, the the Emperor's new clothes, etcetera. All right, well, 0:10:55.480 --> 0:10:57.280 as long as we're talking about the arc, we have 0:10:57.320 --> 0:10:59.240 another bit of listener mail here that comes to us 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:03.120 from David. David says, Hello, Robert and Joe. I enjoyed 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:05.640 the latest podcast, as I do most of your episodes, 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:08.360 although as I wow, you know, I mean, we cover 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:11.800 a lot of different topics here. I we realized that 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:14.480 that every episode is not going to be for every listener. 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:18.040 Of course, he continues, although as I have a mild 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:21.760 case of misophonia at the front sequence, as you begin 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:25.240 to almost whisper, I did begin to feel slightly enraged. 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:29.439 Well well, but but you know it's this is another 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:32.400 case where some some listeners may have a problem with whispering. 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:35.600 We know for a fact that multiple listeners will put 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:37.760 us on as they're going to sweep. So you know, 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:40.320 it kind of goes both ways. I can't please everybody, 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:43.560 can't be everybody's dream come true. Anyway, he continues, I 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:45.920 thought you might like to read some observations that I 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:48.720 have made over multiple viewing of Raiders of the Lost Dark, 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:51.960 all right, because we did. We talked about Raiders of 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:53.960 the Lost Dark at length in those episodes. We got 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:55.960 a little carried away at one point. I think we 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:59.480 just basically accidentally turned it into a movie crush episode 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:01.360 for about ten in it. So sorry about that. It 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:03.760 was not on purpose, but you know it was a 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:08.040 little bit on purpose, alright, So he continues, So he 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:11.240 has several different areas he focuses on here. First of all, 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:13.800 the idea that Indie has no effect on the outcome. 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:16.600 He says, quote, this is something you touched on and 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:19.080 was brought up, brought to popular culture in the TV 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:24.240 show Big Bang Theory. It is that despite Indiana Jones's effort, 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:27.160 nothing he does stops the Nazis from accomplishing their goal 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:30.320 and in fact helps them. Whilst this is true, that 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:32.440 is not the point of the movie for me. He 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:34.920 is not meant to succeed. He is coming up against 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:37.679 one of the greatest military forces of all time, and 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:40.240 to have him defeat them would be ridiculous. This was 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:43.000 the point I made in the episode that the genius 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:45.880 of the climax of Raiders of the Lost Art is 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:49.320 that Indie is victorious in the end, not by fighting. 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:51.120 There's not a fight scene at the end of the movie. 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:53.360 He doesn't beat down the enemy and throw him off 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:56.560 a cliff or something. Instead, Indie is victorious at the 0:12:56.640 --> 0:13:00.840 end by realizing what the arc means. That's his that's 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:04.080 his victory, is that the Nazis don't understand what the 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:07.240 arc means, and Indie finally does right. And I think, 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:09.280 you know, I also going to go maybe off on 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:11.400 a limb here a little bit and say that I 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:15.640 think our expectation that Indy should absolutely save the day 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:21.120 and should be a real, you know factor in this scenario, 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:24.760 that this is perhaps a poisoning of the well brought 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:29.480 on by our just obsession with superhero movies and also 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:32.920 epic narratives saying the Lord of the Rings and I 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:37.040 love a good superhero movie. I love uh, I love 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:39.880 you know. Blade two is one of my favorites. I 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:42.640 also enjoyed some of the recent Marvel films as well, 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:47.360 But in those films, the superhero absolutely has to save 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:50.400 the day. That is the trope. You can't have just 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:53.000 a small story or even a you know, a very 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:56.000 exciting story that sort of taking place uh in the 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:59.120 foreground or the background of larger events. Likewise, in an 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:02.160 epic fantasy like Lord of the Rings, it is about 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:06.439 the individuals who do the key things that save the world. Well, 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:08.760 I mean, I think it's that these modern Marvel movie 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:11.800 writers have read T. S. Eliot's critique of Hamlet, and 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:15.040 they're like, Okay, we don't want to have an ineffectual 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:18.240 hero the way Hamlet is, who's just indecisive and doesn't 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:20.880 ultimately fix anything. So we've we've got to go in 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:23.720 the opposite direction and instead of have these like boring 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:28.000 perfect do everything right here. Don't get me started ranting 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:32.240 on Marvel movies. Well again, and I'm not hating on them. 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:34.800 I enjoy some of them as as well. To Actually 0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:37.480 I like the Iron Man movies. Oh yeah, the third 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:41.600 one especially, I really doug the shame Black one. Uh yeah. 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:43.480 So on one hand, I think part of it is 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:45.320 you can't look to a move to every movie and 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:49.080 expected to accomplish the same things that a superhero film does. 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:52.160 So certainly one can't look to every film and expected to, 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:55.360 you know, have exactly the same beats as a superhero 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:59.520 film and have the protagonist engage in the overall narrative 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:02.200 and exactly the same way. I have to say that 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:05.680 I enjoy many a story where the the hero or 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:09.720 the protagonist doesn't really change the outcome of events, or 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:12.280 it's just a smaller story and you get the sense 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:16.040 of something larger, something more epic, taking place that they 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:19.240 may have limited interaction with. You know. The kind of 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:21.560 story I love even more is the one where the 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:24.840 ostensible hero is actually quite ineffectual and it is the 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:27.760 sidekick or some other ally who has to do all 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:29.840 the actual work. Of course, I guess it's the don 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:32.720 Keyxote model. But a great example of this is Big 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:35.280 Trouble and Little China. Absolutely, Jack Burton is just not 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:38.160 very useful in Wang is the real hero, right, But 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:41.000 then at the same time he does have at least 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:44.160 one key moment to shine. Uh And and this comes 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:46.480 back to a discussion that then I know that I 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:51.600 believe we we've had with Lauren Vogelbaum talking about stories, films, etcetera, 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:54.080 or even in a short stories as well, where there's 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:56.280 a lack of agency in the character, where you reach 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:59.400 a point where it's just stuff happening to that individual 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:03.320 and they're not actually like going beyond at least like 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:06.040 India is doing something. He's saving his own life and 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:09.240 the life of Marion towards the end, and and then 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:10.960 there's some arguments for some other things that are going 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:13.200 on there as well, but it doesn't become just a 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:16.800 like a psychedelic freak out of the arc, which you 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:18.440 know very well could have been because you're dealing with 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:20.880 the Ark of the Covenant anyway, David continues. So the 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:23.200 next point that he touches on is the idea that 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:26.720 Bellock saves Hitler. Okay, so Indie's rival in the movie 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:30.440 the French Guy, Yeah, fabulous character. In the movie, the 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:33.520 Nazi commanders are there to obtain the arc and take 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:35.760 it to Hitler. There is a scene near the end 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:38.480 where Bellock convinces them to open the arc on the 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:41.520 island instead of in front of Hitler. The reason is 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:44.880 obviously because of Bellock's own want to have the glory 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:47.840 and his chat with God. This is the holy It's 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:50.640 a radio for speaking to God. But if the Nazi 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:53.680 commanders would have been more insistent, Hitler and probably all 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:56.560 of his major party members in generals would have been extinguished. 0:16:56.640 --> 0:16:59.160 I have never noticed this before, but that's an extremely 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:02.080 good point. It makes Bellock even worse as a villain 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:04.760 because we could have killed Hitler in the thirties, but 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:09.560 Belloc Bellock prevents it. Yeah, yeah, it's it's an interesting read. 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:11.639 I had not thought of that, but it was just 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:13.439 been a longer movie. If it was just at the 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:17.000 end of it, somebody else, Um, who's Indie's boss? Uh? 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:21.639 Was his name? Marcus Brody Dentdno, Elliott, Yeah, it would have. 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:23.000 It would have kind of sucked. At the end of 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:25.920 the movie. Was just Brody reading a newspaper and reading, Oh, 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:28.879 the Ark of the Covenant just took out all the 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:32.119 the leadership of the Third Reich. Interesting role credits wouldn't 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:34.600 have been the same. Yeah, okay. The next point, Nazis 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:37.880 don't act like Nazis, David says. What we know from 0:17:37.920 --> 0:17:40.520 history is that the Nazis never showed restraint when taking 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:44.000 historical artifacts. However, when looking for the arc they do. 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:46.439 They have found the map room and other buildings the 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:49.119 snake room, and we hear they have been digging for months. 0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:51.679 Why wouldn't they just dig out the buildings from the 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:54.639 map It took Solo's team of a few hours to 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:57.440 access the room. That was correct. If they did this, 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:01.080 then in a few months they would have found it. Uh. Yeah, 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:03.119 that might be a good point. Like the Nazis or 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:05.359 the villains of the movie, but the movie actually doesn't 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:09.400 make them bad enough. Yeah, it's I mean, it's it's 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:13.760 weird looking back on storybook Nazis, like it occurring at 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:15.680 just the right time in history where it was I 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:19.520 guess far far enough away from the Second World War, 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:23.280 but also uh, you know, further removed from our our 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:26.679 current struggles in the world. I mean, it's always been important, 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:30.080 I think, to to remind everyone of how awful the 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:33.399 Third Reich was, how awful the Nazis were, and that 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:37.280 there were no there were no heroes among the Third Reich. 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:39.800 But at the same time, I feel like it has 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:44.000 become more important somehow to remind people of that today. 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:46.000 And part of that is because we are getting further 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:48.160 and further away from the Second World War, We're getting 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:50.840 into a time where there are fewer uh you know, 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:54.240 actual there are fewer people carrying the actual flame of 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:58.359 that of that that whole world that we have we 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:01.000 thought we'd move beyond. Oh yeah, like maybe at the 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:03.960 time this movie was made, there was you could feel 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:07.080 more confident that, well, Nazism some is something the world 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:09.680 is now just done with, so you can make cartoonish 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:13.720 historical Nazi characters. Now it's somehow feels a little more 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:17.280 serious to have Nazi characters. Yeah, yeah, it's it's certainly 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:20.520 become a more complicated thing to tackle on your films. 0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:23.480 In fact, I can't think of of anything recently that 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:27.080 is really, you know, struck a similar chord. I guess 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:28.520 there are, I mean, there was like a zombie. There's 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:31.639 Nazi zombie films that are coming out, so but I 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:34.000 haven't seen them. Perhaps we'll hear from listeners on this 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:38.399 whole topic. Alright, Next point where roof access hatches common 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:41.640 in ancient buildings. All three buildings that we see access 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:44.760 had roof access points and no indication that there are 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:48.000 traditional doors. I am unsure, but I believe there is 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:50.800 reference to the city being covered by a sandstorm. That 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:53.480 would mean that in the operation time of the city, 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:56.879 the ground level would be fairly consistent, both internal and 0:19:56.880 --> 0:19:59.560 external to the buildings. The map room shows this also. 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:02.560 So why would they have a rooftop access in more 0:20:02.600 --> 0:20:05.960 modern times? I would believe we would for this, Uh, 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:10.320 we would have this for maintenance. But would this city. Yeah, 0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:12.280 that's a good point. Why do all these buildings have 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:16.159 openings in the roofs? I mean, I can think of 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:22.120 archaeological sites where there are ancient structures that have opening 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:24.679 and openings in the roofs. I think of like some 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:28.160 of the structures of like the ancestral Pueblo peoples of 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:30.359 of New Mexico. You know, sometimes there will be like 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:32.679 the entrance to a building is in the center of 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:35.920 the rooftop. I don't know if that kind of thing 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:38.720 is common in ancient Egypt or not. Well, I guess 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:41.760 one thing that that I that I do think about 0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:44.560 is the fact that many of these the ancient structures 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:48.000 we've talked about on the show, you know, ziggurats for instance. 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:51.440 You know, part of the point of building a structure 0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:54.439 like that was to have access to the top. In 0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:58.720 some fashion, because you are building a sacred mountain, You're 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:01.119