1 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: The media. 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 2: The year was nineteen sixty eight and the military coup 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 2: had just rocked the Isthmian country of Panama. Welcome, it 4 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,479 Speaker 2: could happen here. I'm Andrew Sage, joined again by. 5 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:22,600 Speaker 3: James. It's me again. I'm excited to talk about Panama. 6 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:23,279 Speaker 2: Nearly mister Q. 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 3: Yeah I did. I was forgot who I was for 8 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 3: a second. 9 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 2: And this is the follow up to the last episode 10 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 2: on the history of US involvement in Panama. So you 11 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 2: can go back and give that one. Listen if you 12 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 2: happened already. But in these times of trump ro doctrine, 13 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 2: I want to take us back to this particular moment 14 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 2: in Iama's first history to highlight the parallels with today. 15 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 2: In short, what we talked about last time was how 16 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 2: Panama became a testing ground for US Empire. Long before, during, 17 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 2: and after the construction of the Panama Canal, the US 18 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 2: had repeated military interventions justified as protecting transit or American interests, 19 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 2: and Washington ultimately backed Panama's break from Columbia in nineteen 20 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 2: oh three secure canal rights on Washington students. This independence 21 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 2: came with a cost, a caveat a lopsided treaty that 22 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 2: turned Panama into US protectorate and granted the US permanent 23 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 2: control over the canal zone and the rest of the country. Effectively, 24 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 2: the canal's construction itself was an insurance feat built on 25 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 2: racial hierarchy, and throughout the rest of the twentieth century, 26 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 2: the US continued to demonstrate its control over Panama's politics, 27 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 2: the attempts of its people to exercise their autonomy, to 28 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 2: exercise their their rights, and the US of course engaged 29 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 2: in the testing of chemical weapons in the season of 30 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 2: land and the use of the country as a regional 31 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 2: military launch pad. And yet Parmelians continue to resist, continue 32 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 2: to challenge US control, and continue to demand treaty reform. 33 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 2: And so following the nineteen sixty four riots, there was 34 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:08,679 Speaker 2: an opportunity to negotiate a new treaty, but after the 35 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 2: first attempt was rejected by Panama nineteen sixty seven, a 36 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 2: military coup would rock the country in nineteen sixty eight. 37 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 2: A feast. To get this timeline thanks to my main 38 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 2: resource for these episodes, Emperors in the Jungle, The Hidden 39 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 2: History of the US in Panama by John Lindsay Poland, 40 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 2: but he doesn't go into too much depth on the 41 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 2: military coup. Specifically, for that, I had to look to 42 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 2: an EPSCO knowledge advantage article by Carl Henry Marco titled 43 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 2: Omar Tortijos ousts Arias in Panama. What I learned from 44 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 2: that was there was a coalition of National Guard officers 45 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 2: that ousted President Arnulfo Arias, who was himself trying to 46 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 2: consolidate control over the military so they would support his 47 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 2: future elections by removing those officers he thought he could control. 48 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 2: So there were apparently racial tensions mixed into the school 49 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 2: as off officers in the National Guard had increasingly come 50 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 2: from Mestizo backgrounds as opposed to white backgrounds, which had 51 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 2: traditionally supported the civilian predominantly white oligarchy, so a coalition 52 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 2: of officers tried to change this. At first, they were 53 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 2: led by a guy named Major Boris Martinez, who seized 54 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 2: power and ousted areas before anyone thought for a moment 55 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: the things were finally going to radically change in the country. 56 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 2: Within months, student protests were crushed by the National Guard 57 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 2: with arrests and beatens, making it clear that the military 58 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 2: rule and not democracy, was there to stay. But not 59 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 2: long after Martinez took control, he was himself ousted by 60 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: a lieutenant colonel and the junta's chief of staff in 61 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine. That man was Omar Torrijos Herrera, a 62 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 2: Mestizo officer with middle class roots who sat to challenge 63 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 2: the oligarchy. Somewhat fun fact, though, Lindsay Poland mentions that 64 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 2: Torrijos sued as a s for the US military intelligence 65 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 2: for nineteen fifty five to nineteen sixty nine, informing the 66 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 2: Americans about everything from labor unrest and student activities to 67 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 2: political issues and Soviet Chinese penetration. So the host was 68 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 2: one of the soldiers who helped suppress the unrest in 69 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty four. In fact, oh well, but in power. Publicly, 70 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 2: he styled his military rule as reformist. He pushed through 71 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 2: land reforms that opened up estates long when applies by elites, 72 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 2: and promised change for rural Panama. But although these reforms 73 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 2: were popular, very few poor Panaminians actually benefited. Meanwhile, he 74 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 2: overhauled the banking laws in the country, such as Panama 75 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 2: quickly became a hub for offshore banking and money laundering. 76 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:48,359 Speaker 2: But it can't be said that he didn't do anything 77 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 2: positive for the country because he was the one who 78 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 2: asted to establish a new treaty with the US. The 79 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,840 Speaker 2: US was facing international pressure this point for the continued 80 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 2: ownership of the canal, especially thanks to nineteen seventy three 81 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 2: United Nations Security Council session hosted by Torrijos in Panama City. 82 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy seven, Tory Host negotiated Jimmy Carter and 83 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 2: secured the treaties that promised the canal's return to Panmanian control. 84 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 2: The Torri Host Carter Treaties which agreed to transfer the 85 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 2: canal from the United States to Panama on December thirty first, 86 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety nine, with the surrounding territory of the canals 87 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 2: and returned first in nineteen seventy nine, and the US 88 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 2: military being allowed to remain the country until nineteen ninety nine. 89 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 2: But despite this major win, Torri Host knew his rule 90 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 2: was under pressure, so he announced a controlled return into 91 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 2: civilian government. He created a political party dominated by the 92 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 2: National Guard. He stepped back from the presidency. He installed 93 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 2: a civilian figurehead named Aristateius Royo, and he promised elections 94 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 2: by nineteen eighty four, but then his private plane crashed 95 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty one. It's funny how frequently that happened 96 00:05:58,440 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 2: back in those days. 97 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 3: You know, small aircraft doesn't randomly. 98 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:05,599 Speaker 2: These political leaders are constantly dying and plane crashes. Yeah, 99 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 2: very sad, and so the democratic reforms didn't happen. Instead, 100 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 2: Toriijos's intelligence chief emerged as the new military dictator of Panama. 101 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 2: His name was Manuel Noriega. Now, as Lindsay Poland talks 102 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 2: about in the book, Noriega was another informant for the 103 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 2: US in the mid nineteen fifties, but his career in 104 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 2: the military wasn't going anywhere because he had a history 105 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 2: of alcoholism and beaten women until Torijo's hand picked him 106 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 2: as his intelligence chief. Manuel Noriega came up inside a 107 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 2: Panamanian National Guard that had been shaped, trained, and closely 108 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 2: supervised by the US during the Cold War. He was 109 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 2: educated at Peru's National Military Academy, trained at the School 110 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 2: of the Americas, took courses in intelligence and content intelligence 111 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty seven, and training psychological warfare at Fort Benning. 112 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 2: By the late nineteen sixties, he had also become a 113 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 2: regular informant for US intelligence. You know, he took more 114 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 2: than just a few courses. He was very much embedded 115 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 2: with the Americans and so totally hosts dead. Noriega seized 116 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 2: the opportunity to take power. Initially, the US was pretty 117 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 2: much okay with this. No Diego had previously been a 118 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 2: CIA asset, providing intelligence and governments and militaries across the region, 119 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 2: including Cuba. He had helped suppress leftist movements, facilitated US 120 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 2: regional operations, and maintain stability around the canal, and for 121 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 2: that he was well compensated more than one million dollars 122 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 2: from the cie WOW, plus at least another one hundred 123 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 2: and sixty two thousand dollars from the US Army and 124 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 2: the Defense Intelligence Agency. By the early nineteen seventies, US 125 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 2: agencies already knew that no Diego was deeply involved in 126 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 2: drug trafficking. In nineteen seventy two, to be Row of 127 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 2: Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs even considered assassinating him, but he 128 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 2: was just too useful for him to go so soon. Yeah, So, 129 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 2: throughout the Carter years, evidence of his criminal activity was 130 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 2: building up and was also suppressed because Washington needed Panome 131 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 2: and cooperation to secure ratification of the canal. Treatas. But 132 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 2: under Reagan the evidence became impossible to ignore, as intelligence 133 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 2: reports from nineteen eighty three and ninety eighty five documented 134 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 2: meetings between nor Diega and Cartail figures permissions to manufacture 135 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 2: cocaine in Panama and offers to mediate disputes between the traffickers. 136 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 3: I love the mediation by the best. 137 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. He was like, hey, guys, this isn't you. 138 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 2: That's come on, Let's let's have us sit down and 139 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 2: talk on. 140 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 3: He was committed to like a non cast, real solution, 141 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,079 Speaker 3: you know. It's great to see. 142 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, And and they continue to protect him even with 143 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 2: that smoking gun. They were like, yeah, Noriega is still 144 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 2: our guy. They had hoped that he would cooperate with 145 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 2: contra operations against Nicaragua's Sandinista government, though, but in what 146 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:18,319 Speaker 2: was I suppose his first strike, he refused to cooperate 147 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 2: with them on that operation. He also maintained relations with 148 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 2: both Nicaragua and Cuba, and meanwhile, under his leadership, the 149 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:30,079 Speaker 2: Panamanian Defense Forces expanded their role in both arms and 150 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 2: drug smuggling networks, much of it feeding directly into the 151 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 2: US drug market. So Noriega and the US had to 152 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 2: break up in the mid to late eighties, and this 153 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 2: is also thanks to US domestic politics. You see, in 154 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty six, the Iran Contra scandals saw a key 155 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:52,599 Speaker 2: figures who had shielded Noyeka previously be removed from their positions. 156 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 2: At the same time, the cracker key and panic took 157 00:09:56,040 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 2: over US politics again a very racialized situation. Yeah, Congress 158 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 2: had passed sweeping anti drug laws with mandatory minimum sentences, 159 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 2: and the media was freeing this whole drug problem as 160 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 2: a foreign, racial black threat. 161 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:13,439 Speaker 3: Yeah. 162 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:18,959 Speaker 2: Noriega, being a Panamedian dictator, ended up being a very 163 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 2: useful prop villain of sorts for the burgeoning war on drugs. 164 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 2: So in February nineteen eighty eight, US Grand Juries in 165 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 2: Miami and Tampa indicted Noriega for drug trafficking linked to 166 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:37,239 Speaker 2: activities from nineteen eighty two to nineteen eighty four. Sanctions 167 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 2: followed within weeks, supposedly to force amount, but they didn't. 168 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 2: The sanctions scored shortages. He can only collapse and suffering 169 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 2: among ordinary Panamanians. Yet Noriega stayed in power, used the 170 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:54,719 Speaker 2: crisis to justify emergency measures and nationalist rhetoric, as is 171 00:10:54,920 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 2: usually the response. I realize with US inflicted sanctions up 172 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 2: creating almost a support piace, right or the administration and 173 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 2: power because you know, you're trying to make the people suffer. 174 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 2: And in said people end up standing with their government, 175 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 2: even if they have critiques of that government. 176 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, right, because they don't want to become another like 177 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 3: vassal state. And especially in Panama, right, like they've they've 178 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 3: already been there at once, or like look at what's 179 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 3: happening right now in Iran, right, Like yeah, HARMANI it's 180 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 3: literally like he's literally tweeting that the people protesting and 181 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 3: Donald Trump supporters. 182 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And the thing is that they're always going 183 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 2: to be all types of people in any protests. And 184 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 2: I wish when people realize that. Yeah, you know, people 185 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 2: tend to take like one or two figures or one 186 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,079 Speaker 2: two pictures in any particular protest and say, oh, look 187 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 2: they are doing this. That means the entire protests like this. 188 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 2: It's like no. Protests tend to I think, invite a 189 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 2: variety of positions, perspectives, actors into the free. 190 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,959 Speaker 3: Yeah. By their nature, they're large gatherings of people, right, 191 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 3: Like they're not going to be a monolith. People will 192 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,439 Speaker 3: always seek to either represent protests in one way or 193 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 3: represent themselves controlling a protest when they have not done so. 194 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,319 Speaker 3: But for the most part they're very hedrogeneous. 195 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, the monolithizing of protests, including this case with Iran, 196 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 2: I think it's a very clear example of how useful 197 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 2: that is for every side of a conflict. Yes, because 198 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 2: you know, the protest could be treated as a monolith 199 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 2: by committee and by the Iranian government, you know, to 200 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:27,839 Speaker 2: save there and to say these are enemies from within, 201 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 2: you know, these are these are Zionists facts and this thing. 202 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 2: And then of course the Israelis could also try and 203 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 2: stake a claim on this and say, yeah, this is 204 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 2: all people. And you know, I'm sure they're probably Masad 205 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 2: agents on the ground, as they are in most protest situations, 206 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 2: not necessarily massadity agents, but intelligence service agents in general 207 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 2: from agencies around the world. 208 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 3: Sure. 209 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, you could always pick and choose 210 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 2: and create your own freemen based on which aspects of 211 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:59,079 Speaker 2: the truth you want to focus on. But that's why 212 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: I think our solidarity has dreamin with people and not 213 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 2: with states. 214 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, it seems to be the fundamental issue affecting 215 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 3: much of the Internet left in the United States, so 216 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 3: their solidarity based to only be to states and not 217 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 3: to people. Right, we see that in Iran or Venezuela 218 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 3: or Russia or any anywhere else. Really like this sort 219 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 3: of Internet tanky leftism likes to talk about. 220 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, so we saw that kind of upswing of nationalistic Further, 221 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 4: following those US sanctions and the political situation in Panama 222 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 4: was deteriorating rapidly. 223 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 2: No Diego annulled the results of the me nineteen Ellion 224 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 2: ninety elections after his chosen candidates were decisively defeated. Protests 225 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 2: followed the Panamine and defense forces crushed them, and the 226 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 2: images of his oposition figures being beaten by his military 227 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 2: saturated US televisions to reinforce the racialized image of the 228 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 2: savage Panamania because many of the soldiers that were doing 229 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 2: the beating were black and brown and the opposition figure 230 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 2: in question was white, So they were able to clip 231 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 2: that and you know, create a whole narrative around it 232 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 2: that served their interests. Now, in October nineteen eighty nine, 233 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 2: a coup attempt by Panamanian officers failed and the officers 234 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 2: were executed in the US. Meanwhile, criticism of President George H. W. 235 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 2: Bush had intensified, with editorials and senators accusing him of 236 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 2: weakness for his failure to act decisively against Noriaca. And 237 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 2: oh boy, call a man. We to go on and 238 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 2: prove his manhood, you know. So for the motivation for 239 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 2: what came next was Noriaca's nomination of Thomas Duquet as 240 00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 2: the first Panamian administrator of the Panama Canal Commission. Bush 241 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 2: did not like that pick, and if the US invaded, 242 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 2: then they could pick who they preferred, So there was 243 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 2: another motivation. The invasion was also motivated by a desire 244 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 2: to showcase the Pentagon's post Cold War mission. You know, 245 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 2: the Cold War was weighing at that point, particularly with 246 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 2: the fall of the Berlin Wall May months before, and 247 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 2: so a new threat, a new boogeyman, was needed to 248 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 2: justify US military action in Latin America, this time in 249 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 2: the form of the drug war story. And then on 250 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 2: December sixteenth, a U. S. Marine Intelligence udit ran a 251 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 2: roadblock near Palmeian military headquarters. Paramanian soldiers opened fire, killing 252 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 2: Lieutenant Robert Pass. Another US soldier and his wife were detained, 253 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 2: and while the soldier was beaten. The wife was threatened 254 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 2: with the rape. Within twenty four hours, Bush ordered a 255 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 2: full scale invasion. On December twenty, or nineteen eighty nine, 256 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 2: the United States launched its twentieth military intervention in Panama 257 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 2: since eighteen fifty six, and by far the most violent. 258 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 2: It was the worst destruction Panama had seen since Columbia's 259 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 2: Thousand Days War. Eighteen thousand people lost their homes. At 260 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 2: least five hundred and sixteen Panamanians were killed by official 261 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 2: Pentagon counts. Internal Army estimates, however, but civilian deaths closer 262 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 2: to one thousand jeez, and many believed that the true 263 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 2: number was even higher. Entire neighborhoods were destroyed. El to Rillo, 264 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 2: a poor, mostly black and Mestizo community built originally for 265 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 2: canal workers, was bombed and burned to the ground. San 266 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 2: Miguelitos also hit and across the country. Thousands were detained 267 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 2: in prison camps. Damage exceeded one billion dollars on top 268 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 2: of losses for nearly two years of sam shuns. The 269 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 2: US used overwhelming force, including stealth bombers, their born assaults, 270 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 2: and heavy firepower in densely populated areas against a Panamanian 271 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 2: force of only about three thousand trained soldiers. Nodega was captured, 272 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 2: flew into the United States, tried and imprisoned, and, as 273 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 2: Lindsay Poland writes, quote, the names of the twenty five 274 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 2: US soldiers killed during the invasion ruled across TV screens 275 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 2: around the world. He had a register of Panaminians killed 276 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 2: during the invasion has never been published even in Latin America. 277 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 2: End quote. 278 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 3: Jeez, when no Diega like sought refuge in the Vatican 279 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 3: embassy for a while, I understand that they played like 280 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 3: you two music NonStop to force him to capitulate the 281 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 3: PID what yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they used YouTube and 282 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 3: some other stuff too, But. 283 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,120 Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure my age here this just before my time. 284 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 2: This was the band that was forced onto all the 285 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 2: iPods and stuff, right. 286 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 3: Yes, that's right, yeah, yeah, this was Yeah, and prepped 287 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 3: a parallel operation. Maybe again they would maybe that was 288 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 3: a CIA or Yeah Bono, the guy who talks to 289 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 3: Big Game and then never pays his taxes in Ireland 290 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 3: also part of the invasion of Panama. 291 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,120 Speaker 2: He had a critical role in US intervention. 292 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 3: Yeah wait until I find it. I bet there was 293 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 3: some band I like as well. But you two is 294 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 3: the one that sticks in my mind. 295 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 2: The humanity if there has to be a walk around 296 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 2: war crime. 297 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. 298 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 2: So, in all seriousness, though, Loriego was not a good 299 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 2: guy by any stretch of the imagination. And I don't 300 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 2: know why people feel this, this compulsion to try and 301 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 2: rehability figures that have been targeted by US imperial staggression. 302 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 2: You know, you can condemn US superior suggression without carrying 303 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 2: water for their image, right, Yeah, Now, Loriego was not 304 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 2: a good guy, but he was not unusual. I think, 305 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 2: if anything, you can point out the hypocrisy of the 306 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 2: United States in this you know, selective outrage because at 307 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 2: the very same moment our WUS atrocities were being inflicted 308 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 2: by leaders across the region, carried out by regimes firmly 309 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 2: integrated in Washington's could races. In Guatemala, for example, security 310 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 2: forces kidnapped, tortured, and raped Diana Ortiz, an American nun 311 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 2: before she managed to escape. But there's no evidence of 312 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 2: this triggered outrage in Washington or coals for military intervention. 313 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 2: And then in El Salvador, Gorilla forces launched an offensive 314 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 2: on San Salvador and the army responded by murdering six 315 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 2: Jesuit priests. The same forces went on to arrest, torture, 316 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 2: and intimidate international aid workers and church personnel, but none 317 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 2: of this was treated as grounds for invasion. Regime she 318 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 2: enjoy emergency action. The US only removed Noriega because he 319 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 2: wasn't convenient to their ends anymore, and the aftermath of 320 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 2: that invasion was utter devastation. Panama was left without a 321 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 2: function government until the US military stepped in to fill 322 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 2: the vacuum after two or three days. American forces formerly 323 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 2: took over the administration of the country under the Pentagon 324 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 2: Plan called Operation Blind Logic. US officers were signed to 325 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 2: supervise twenty two Panamean ministries and state agencies, effectively running 326 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 2: the country for months. At the same time, the military 327 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 2: crippled what remained of Panama's civilian administration by season roughly 328 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 2: fifteen thousand boxes of government documents. The invasion permanently reshaped 329 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 2: Panama's political reality, dividing it between those absorbed into Noriega's 330 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 2: nationalist rhetoric and those who had welcomed foreign intervenure. It 331 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 2: also sends a clear message to every political actor that 332 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 2: Panama's sovereignty was conditional on their cooperation with the US. Meanwhile, 333 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 2: in the US there was barrier murmur against the government's 334 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 2: claimed right to invade. Panama removed its government, dismantled its military, 335 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 2: and then if it costs on Panama's poor black and 336 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 2: Mestizo communities, the US kind of moved on from Panama 337 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:12,440 Speaker 2: after the invasion. I mean, they continued to meddle an intervene, 338 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 2: but they'd basically gotten what they wanted at that point, 339 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 2: which was the removal of someone who was not going 340 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 2: to cooperate with them anymore. Unless you believe that they 341 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 2: disrupted the drug trade with the arrest of Doriego, Panama 342 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 2: continued to function as a transit point for cocaine and 343 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 2: a center for money laundering at basically the same scale 344 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 2: as before. So, finally, what exactly is the connection with Venezuela. 345 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 2: If any James you want to go first, yeah. 346 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 3: I mean, there's a very obvious parallel in that they 347 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 3: have deposed a leader that you don't need to go 348 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 3: carry water for the guy they deposed. You could say 349 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,119 Speaker 3: something is bad without like the person that happen and 350 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 3: who does not therefore become a perfect angel. Things cannot 351 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 3: be binary, That's okay, But like it is wild that 352 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 3: we look to what happened in Panama and we're like, 353 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 3: you know what we could do better than that. We 354 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 3: don't even have to declare a war. We don't even 355 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 3: have to do an invasion, right, we can just just 356 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 3: kidnap a guy. 357 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 2: I mean, they did do an invasion. They kind of 358 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 2: bombed a bunch of people and stuff. 359 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 3: Too, Yes they did. Yeah, they did an air Yeah 360 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 3: they did, like an airborne invasion, I guess would be 361 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 3: the way to describe it. Like and in a sense, right, 362 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,400 Speaker 3: like I'm happy that they didn't sort of go through 363 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 3: the streets of Caracas with bombs and artillery and mortars. 364 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, the then do squashed earth yeah this time. 365 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 3: But at the same time, like we have now, like 366 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 3: I've literally have spoken to several people in Bends wehear 367 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,199 Speaker 3: in the last twenty four hours, right, and they are 368 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 3: in that situation now of not knowing, right, like who 369 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 3: is the relevant authority? The US in this case doesn't 370 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 3: seem to have replaced the regime. They've just and again 371 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 3: in a parallel to what we saw in Panama, just 372 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 3: installed another person, right. 373 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 2: Not even necessarily install another person, because I mean. 374 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 3: Let it trickle down and see how it rides. 375 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 2: Rodriguez was already. 376 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I guess maybe they looked to Rodriguez and 377 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 3: were like, because she's previously worked with Like, I guess 378 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 3: the anality would be the Chamber of Commerce maybe something 379 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,400 Speaker 3: like that, like Venezuelan business interests. Maybe they would just say, yeah, well, 380 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,199 Speaker 3: maybe we can force her to be compliant with what 381 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 3: we want. Like, the only shit getting liberated is the 382 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 3: oil in Venezuela, right, and it's actually not very good oil. Yeah, 383 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 3: the same happened in Panama. Right. The US didn't go 384 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,680 Speaker 3: to liberate people, that went to liberate the canal. It's 385 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 3: so disappointing to see people still look at foreign policy 386 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 3: and binary terms. And like you said before, I think 387 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,199 Speaker 3: one of the things that the Venezuelan people I'm speaking 388 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 3: to express deep, deep frustration with is that when they 389 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 3: take a risk right and go online and share their 390 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 3: frustrations with both chovies more with the United States invading 391 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 3: their country, they're told by Western leftists that they must 392 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 3: be either THAA agents or pretend Venezuelans like Americans posing 393 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:13,920 Speaker 3: as Venezuelans. 394 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, or like Gusanos or whatever. 395 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, like there is this. I mean in the case 396 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 3: of Venezuela. Right, if you thought it was great, you 397 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 3: could have gone. You had two decades to go. I 398 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 3: went when I was an undergraduate, right to see it, 399 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 3: study it, to understand it. It was formative in the 400 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,360 Speaker 3: way that my politics are now, which is politics. It 401 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 3: doesn't see human liberation coming from the state. 402 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 2: It's not to say that there's nothing positive happening in 403 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 2: Venezuela in terms of experiments with you know, communal initiatives 404 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 2: and you know, cooperative economic projects, despite the US aunctions, 405 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 2: despite what they are in endurant Gas Weelan people have 406 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 2: you know, managed to innovate and managed to create you know, 407 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:01,199 Speaker 2: these kinds of projects where they can exercise they autonomy, 408 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 2: exercise their voice and their self determination. 409 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:06,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. 410 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 2: I think, of course that there's a level of I 411 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,919 Speaker 2: think co optation or attempts by ut government or Venezuela 412 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,400 Speaker 2: to use those projects and to integrate those projects into 413 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 2: their apparatus or to gain legitimacy through those projects. But 414 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 2: that's always the situation on the ground is very complex, 415 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 2: and people are going to have different perspectives and feelings 416 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 2: on the levels of government's involvement in their communes and whatnot. 417 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 2: I think the best outcome for Venezuelan's would have been, 418 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,439 Speaker 2: of course, primarily the lifting of US sanctions and you know, 419 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 2: secondarily their own self directed liberation from the imposition of 420 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 2: the government on their projects. But you know, there are 421 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 2: those who have those projects who support of months involved, 422 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,120 Speaker 2: mind get received funding and that kind of thing. 423 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 3: So it's complex. Like you say, Rare that these things 424 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 3: aren't binaries. It's not like always good, always bad. But 425 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 3: as you said, right, like our solidarity should be with 426 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 3: the Venezuelan people. They should be the ones who get 427 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:17,879 Speaker 3: to decide who rules Venezuela. 428 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, even if I disagree with that, Yeah, 429 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 2: I still think our sol be up to them. 430 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 3: We should want a world in which yet they can choose, 431 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 3: even if they don't choose what we want. Otherwise it's 432 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 3: just another kind of colonial project, right, and I think 433 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 3: that colonial impulse. And let's also be honest, there is 434 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 3: a racialized component to the way that the American left 435 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 3: talks to people in the global South, right, and I 436 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 3: think we should not overlook that that they think that 437 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 3: people aren't capable of either they don't know what's best 438 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 3: for them and they need to be told by someone else, 439 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 3: or that they're not capable of understanding. Like people in 440 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 3: Venezuela are extremely aware of the consequences of US intervention. 441 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 3: I lived with people who were tortured in Chile. When 442 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 3: I lived in Venice, where that many people came from 443 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 3: fleeting Pinochet right to Venezuela. It was a place that 444 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,919 Speaker 3: previously accepted migrants. Before migrants I ended up leaving in 445 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 3: large numbers as they have now. People are extremely aware 446 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 3: of what US intervention means. You know, they're much better 447 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:21,360 Speaker 3: educated than most Americans on affairs in South and Central America. Yeah, 448 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 3: they know the game that is being played here, and 449 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 3: I would just like to see people afford them the 450 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 3: same humanity that they afford people in this country. Shouldn't 451 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,159 Speaker 3: be that difficult, but it genuinely seems to be. 452 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think too. There's an element where you know 453 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 2: them with their knowledge, we make calculations, We make decisions 454 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 2: that you with that same knowledge wouldn't make. You know 455 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 2: because there's internal disagreement too the people who have the 456 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 2: same knowledge, and then they come to different conclusions about 457 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 2: that or the best course of action and about the 458 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 2: best trade offs that they should be making about how 459 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 2: they navigate the conditions they've been placed in. Yeah, and 460 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 2: I think there's there's room for those conversations we had 461 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 2: without erasing that ipe we see your perspectives and favor 462 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 2: of that simple binary that keep coming back to. 463 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, like there's no need for their condescension if 464 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 3: we can give criticisms from a place of solidarity. One 465 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 3: of the things that I learned when I was in Java, like, 466 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 3: not everything that happens there is something that I think 467 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,719 Speaker 3: is perfect or good, right, And there are a lot 468 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 3: of people there, including internationalists, right, like there's an anarchist 469 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 3: group techoshan analysist who are an anarchist group within the revolution, 470 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 3: and like the revolution itself is not purely anarchist. Right 471 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 3: that they exist to give criticism from a place of solidarity, 472 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 3: and both groups wanting the other group to get better, 473 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 3: right to have what they want to succeed, which is 474 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 3: how our relations with these other like I guess liberation 475 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 3: struggles in Venezuela would be a reasonable term to use, right, Like, 476 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 3: our relationship with them should be that like we care 477 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 3: about you, we hopefully both care about these things right, 478 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 3: about human liberation, about people being able to live with 479 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 3: dignity and respect. And we could disagree, but we're ultimately 480 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 3: disagreeing from a place of solidarity and support, not of condescension, 481 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 3: which is what I see far too much. I think 482 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 3: when I'm on the internet. 483 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 2: Exactly exactly, so you know, no diego and when we're 484 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 2: all are not interchangeable. Partama nineteen eighty nine is not 485 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 2: to Venezuela and twenty six. The political systems, reachional dynamics, 486 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 2: and global context are different, but the stories tooled to 487 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 2: justify us in Aventure ah pretty fuiliar. In Panama, the 488 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 2: invasion was framed as a moral necessity to stop drugs, 489 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 2: restore democracy, and defend American lives. And this is in 490 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 2: spite of the fact that US collaborated with that very 491 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 2: same regime. But yeah, beforehand. Interestingly, in Venezuela's case, the 492 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 2: justifications were also pretty similar. At first, stopping drugs, restoring democracy, 493 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 2: defending American lives, and just like with Panama, they faced 494 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 2: sanctions to traumatic isolation and economic pressure. But after the 495 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 2: invasion of Venezuela, Trump just dropped the pretense entirely. He 496 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 2: just came out and said it, Yeah, we want their oil. 497 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 2: So what what is the international community going to do 498 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 2: about it? The laws do not apply to us. In fact, 499 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 2: we are going to withdraw from all of those international 500 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 2: agreements that you know, threaten not interest. You could look 501 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 2: this up that the US literally put this into what 502 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 2: was it. 503 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 3: It's an executive order, right, leg. 504 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 2: As executive order, right, Yeah, the withdrawing from all of 505 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 2: these international agreements that don't align with what they want. 506 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 2: And so in both the case of Panama and the 507 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 2: case of Venezuela, American interests supersede all else. American laws 508 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 2: somehow apply to the entire world, while the world's laws 509 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 2: never apply to America, and the actual people on the 510 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 2: ground in both cases don't matter at all. And also 511 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 2: another parallel, the domestic American narrative of racialized fail and 512 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 2: drug war hysteria can be found in both invasions. And 513 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 2: just like Panama left the media consciousness after the invasion 514 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 2: as though the problems were solved, I wouldn't be surprised 515 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 2: if we see a similar situation play out after they 516 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 2: get what they want out of Venezuela, suddenly all the 517 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 2: issues of Venezuela have would no longer be in the 518 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 2: picture because America got what they wanted course development story, 519 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 2: so it remains to be seen. That's what I have 520 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 2: for today. History does not repeat, but it's good to 521 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 2: know because I find it often rhymes or power to 522 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 2: all the people. Peace. 523 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: It could Happen Here is a product of cool Zone Media. 524 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 525 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 526 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 527 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 1: now find sources for it could Happen Here, listed directly 528 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 1: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.