1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you from House top 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and it is pin Ups week 4 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: here on the podcast. That's right, celebrating lady bodies. Lady Bodies, 5 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 1: the original duck faces. Yeah. Interesting, interesting to to really 6 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: figure that out. Yeah, and also carroling the perils of 7 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: getting your dress snagged on any possible surface. Oh my god, 8 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 1: broom handles. Either could be a breeze. You could catch 9 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: it in a phone booth. For those of you who 10 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: don't know what that is, it's a It was a 11 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: glass housing of phones for before people had selves. Like 12 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: that doctor who watch him calls it right thing? Yeah, 13 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: I mean like a cat with an extra long tail 14 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: could be walking by who next thing? You know? There 15 00:00:57,560 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: your panties. It was. It was so hard to be 16 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: a man in the forties and fifties with your dress 17 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 1: always flying up. Yes, But the good thing is pin 18 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: ups always looked delighted to get a little bit of 19 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: a breeze on their thighs. You gotta air it out, 20 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: you gotta air it out, um and Carently this reminded 21 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 1: me of my college days when I wouldn't say that 22 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: I went through a pin up obsession, but I still 23 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:29,759 Speaker 1: am not very good at apartment decoration, not my neck. 24 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: I am not a Martha Stewart. So I decided to 25 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: cover one of my living room walls with images from 26 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: atash and pin up calendar. So I was like, oh, 27 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: my gosh, she's ladies are cute and it's retro, and 28 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:53,639 Speaker 1: this will cover a surface. And looking back, now, that's 29 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: an interesting choice that I've made from my wall decor. Yeah, 30 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: a lot of people would say, oh, Kristen, you were 31 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: identifying with the the obvious freedom and sense of fun 32 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: sexuality these women were enjoying. And other people would say, Kristen, 33 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: why are you buying into this oppressive, kind of empty 34 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: sense of femininity and female exploited sexuality. And then other 35 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: people would say, Kristen, why do you have such attackie 36 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: taste in wal decor. Here is a normal poster you get, 37 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: you know, like Monet or something. Well, just somebody should 38 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: have just given you the poster, the cat hanging from 39 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: the brand, the hanging there, but its tail is somehow 40 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: still like hooking up underneath a woman's dress, lifting it up. 41 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:42,799 Speaker 1: You just can't get away from it, you can't. Um, 42 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:47,079 Speaker 1: So there is a precise definition of what a pin 43 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 1: up is, even though most of us are probably familiar 44 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: with pin up imagery. Yeah, and Tashan's art of the 45 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: pin up by Diane Hansen. She defines a pin up 46 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: as a provocative but never explicit, image of an attractive woman, 47 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 1: created specifically for public display in a male environment. And so, Kristen, 48 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: you were already transgressing. I know what's wrong with you. 49 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: And I will tell you this. That college apartment that 50 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: I'm referring to was not a male environment at all. 51 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: All I did was killed goldfish and panic about my future. 52 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 1: I mean, accidentally kill goldfish. I'm not very good at keeping. 53 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: The two weren't linked exactly exactly, um. And it's not 54 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: just post their images. Pin ups were reproduced in their 55 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: heyday on calendars, lighters, playing cards, in Gooli magazines as well. 56 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: And I mean we still see pin up merch today too, 57 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,839 Speaker 1: hugely popular, which is, you know, part of why we're 58 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: talking about it. It's still hugely popular. Um. And Kristen 59 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: and I found this great uh link of rip bus 60 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: feed that it had gifts showing the original model for 61 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: the pin up image and then the finished product. And 62 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: it's fascinating because not only is it fascinating to see 63 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: the original woman who modeled for all of these stilly poses, 64 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: because she literally was like, my butts in the air 65 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: and I'm holding my skirt up because the breeze is 66 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: coming or whatever. But it literally illustrates how the artist 67 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: shrunk her waist, stretched her legs, boosted her bust, you know, 68 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:24,039 Speaker 1: gave her where she might have just been making like 69 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 1: a surprise dase, gave her those duck lips. Yeah. I mean, 70 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: this was the proto photoshop going on right now, and 71 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: that whole oops, I dropped my panties. More prurient kind 72 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 1: of post, the thing that you would see more in 73 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: girly magazines than on say a USO poster. That was 74 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: something that an illustrator named art Fram came up with. 75 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: It was a very particular kind of gimmick that was 76 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: then reproduced. And there's something apparently very appealing about that 77 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: moment of oh no, where all the elastic go. Well 78 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: that happened, but she never looks too too concerned. She's like, well, 79 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: I guess I'll just step on out, throw them away 80 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: and go about my day. Breeze doesn't come. It's like 81 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: the art equivalent of like a naked dream, you know, 82 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:15,679 Speaker 1: because in your dream, in your naked you're like, maybe 83 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: if I just stand behind this light pole, like no 84 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: one will notice that I'm not wearing clothes, it's not 85 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: as big a deal as if you suddenly were completely 86 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: stark naked in public. Yeah. I mean that is part 87 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: of though, the delight of the pin up, because very 88 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: little phases her. It seems like, yeah, she's very innocent. 89 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 1: She she doesn't have a thought in that pretty shiny, 90 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: pale head. Well, let's talk a little bit about how 91 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: pin ups were conceived, and this is coming from Mary 92 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: Lenna Buseck, who we're going to cite a lot, not 93 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: only in this podcast, but she also gets a nod 94 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: in our follow up podcast on Betty Page, and also 95 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: again from Diane Hansen, who wrote the copy for Tashan's 96 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: The Art of the pin Up and Music. Though, really 97 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: traces the pin up back to the fifteenth century because 98 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:10,720 Speaker 1: that's when we get the printing press, and this allows 99 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 1: for artistic reproductions. That makes this kind of imagery obviously 100 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 1: not nineteen forties pin up imagery, but just imagery in 101 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: general more accessible to poorer classes. Yeah, so instead of 102 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,239 Speaker 1: going to a museum or you know, wherever, you could 103 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: have works of art hanging on your walls at home. 104 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: And then as we move through the centuries, technological advancements 105 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:40,799 Speaker 1: obviously make it easier, cheaper, faster to create artistic reproductions 106 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: and get those into people's homes or you know, as 107 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: the case, maybe into their garages or break rooms wherever 108 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: they're hiding from their wives. Yeah, and alongside that too, 109 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: the rise of the middle class also creates this consumer 110 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: base for it. And one thing that Beausic talks about 111 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 1: is that in the nineteenth century, in particular, she says, 112 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 1: quote the female body is the ultimate signifier of modernity, 113 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: and this too in the nineteenth century. In eighteen eighty 114 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: nine is when Thomas Murphy and Edmund Osborne print the 115 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: first calendar featuring ads beneath the images. Because the thing 116 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: to remember about pin ups is that it really started 117 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: as advertising imagery. Yeah, look at my ad. Here's a 118 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: pretty girl and he's a calendar. Well, the pretty girl 119 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: who was on this first calendar was actually George Washington. 120 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: He his beautiful cheap bones. Um canful that it breezes 121 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: and catch his bleaches, lit those wooden teeth, read out 122 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: of his mouth. Um, and not shockingly, it didn't sell well. 123 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: The calendar market so to speak, didn't really heat up 124 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: until about nineteen o three with the release of the 125 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: first girl calendar, titled Cassette. And it makes sense that 126 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: because that sold so well, because these kinds of calendars 127 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: were intended for workplaces, and at this time workplaces were 128 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: i mean except in very specific kinds of side industries 129 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: like habadashows where you might have lady hat makers. Um, 130 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:15,679 Speaker 1: there are still more exclusively male spaces. So you see 131 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: pin ups mostly in those kinds of break rooms of 132 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: your in the twenties and thirties via these calendars. Yeah, 133 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: and stepping back though to we've talked about the Gibson 134 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: Girl on the podcast before. She's sort of like the 135 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: proto pin up. And while she's technically more of a 136 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: what's called glamour art, so more of something you might 137 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: see in a fashion magazine as instead of just one 138 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: of those hidden away calendars, she definitely was the first 139 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: centerfold and she ended up being reproduced on postcards, plates, calendars, again, 140 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: the same things that we eventually see pin ups being 141 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: put on well. And she also is really instrumental in 142 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: terms of establishing this beauty ideal from fiction, really from 143 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: Charles Dana Gibson's mind of well, this is what a 144 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: beautiful woman looks like, and it trickles down all the 145 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: way to, for instance, her slender ankles that we talked 146 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: about in our Cankles podcast about how well the Gibson 147 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: girl is putting her ankles on display. And this is 148 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: a very new thing for fashion, so all of a sudden, 149 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,439 Speaker 1: well they're slender, Well you better have some slender ankles. 150 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: And the Gibson Girl was mimicked in Chandler Christie's The 151 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: Christie Girl for the Century magazine. There was also Harrison 152 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: Fisher's Fisher Girl, which was included in Puck magazine and 153 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: also Cosmopolitan from around nineteen twelve to nineteen thirty two, 154 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: and all of these women are similarly beautiful and aloof yeah, 155 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 1: it's it's interesting to watch the timeline of how advertising 156 00:09:55,280 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 1: and the days media watching it shape women's appearance and 157 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: how women were expected to look, because I mean, it's 158 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: not like the Christie Girl. I'm looking at a picture, 159 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: it's not like the Christie Girl. Was particularly scandalous, you know. 160 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: She It was like, oh, well, you just have your 161 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 1: hair up in a bun. Well, it seems like in 162 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: a way, these gibs and girls and the Christie girls 163 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 1: were more not necessarily targeted. I don't think that it 164 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 1: was that specific, but they were more influential on women. 165 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 1: They had a wider women's audience that this is what 166 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: you need to look like, whereas pin ups were more 167 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,839 Speaker 1: man it's just look at his name was brought over here. Well, 168 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: so what's kind of evolving After we have the lovely 169 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: Fisher girl and the prim and proper Christie girl in 170 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: the background, we evolved into the twenties and thirties where 171 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: we get girly mags which feature full color pin up 172 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:51,679 Speaker 1: girls on the cover, and then you even get pulp 173 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: magazines that illustrate adventure, crime, detective, sci fi stories, again 174 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: all with you know, titillating pin up images. Yeah, and 175 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: I'm sure it coincides too with the fact that women 176 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: just in their day to day fashion wise are showing 177 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: more skin than ever before. Yeah. Um, So when it 178 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: comes so to who really popularized the pin up as 179 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: we think of it today, a lot of it has 180 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: to do with Esquire magazine. Esquire was all about some 181 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 1: pin ups. It was launched in three as a magazine 182 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 1: for affluent men who liked stylish clothes and sexy women 183 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: and has anything really changed? Um, And it commissioned artists 184 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: like George Petty to paint these idealized images of super 185 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: hot babes ak a pin ups. Yeah, and you'll also 186 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: be familiar with magazines like this doing this even today, 187 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: because you've got Vanity Fair, which features not paintings but 188 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 1: super super obviously airbrushed images of young Starlett's dressed in 189 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: the whole pin up gear, posed in a very stereotypical 190 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: pin up fashion, just as part of a little Q 191 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: and a feature off to the side on one page. 192 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: But anyway, the popularity of these pin up girls in 193 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: Esquire ended up spawning art cards that men and boys 194 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:14,319 Speaker 1: collected and traded like baseball cards. But as this popularity 195 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: and sort of the commodification of it increases by Esquire 196 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: tells Petty, like, dude, you are asking for way too 197 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: much money, and so they chuck him and hire Peruvian 198 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 1: born Alberto Vargas, who was already sort of a not 199 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: a household name, but he was a big deal in 200 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: terms of painting images of women, because he was the 201 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: one behind the zig Feld Follies posters. Yeah, he was 202 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 1: their official painter um. But if you have heard of 203 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: the Varga Girls, you'll notice that it's not the Vargas 204 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 1: Girls because Esquire made him drop the s in his 205 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: name because they thought it sounded too possessive, which was 206 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 1: an interesting fact. And the first Varga girl that Esquire 207 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: prince is a blod on and she's hanging out on 208 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: the phone talking in a short black nightgown like you do, 209 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: like you do. And these Varga girls became mainstream propaganda, 210 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: particularly during World War Two, decorating not only bunkers and barracks, 211 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: but also fighter planes and warships. And one statistic that 212 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 1: we found said that from two to Esquire delivered six 213 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: million copies of its magazine to U. S troops overseas 214 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:33,119 Speaker 1: and three million to the domestic military. Yeah, my grandfather 215 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: during World War Two, his airplane did not have a 216 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: sexy lady on it, although many of his friends planes did. 217 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: He instead just had it painted with the name Saucy 218 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 1: sal which was my grandmother. So he still had a 219 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: cute little name on it, but but no sexy lady 220 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: s And so my my mother Sally is Sally Jr. 221 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 1: So was your grandmother saucy? She was? She was very 222 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: sweet lady, but maybe she was saucy with him, maybe 223 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 1: had a saucy side, could be saucy sou I mean, obviously, 224 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: you know, and everybody knew about the popularity of these 225 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: Esquire images. At one point, comedian Bob Hope said, our 226 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,319 Speaker 1: troops are ready to fight at the drop of an 227 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: Esquire And can we describe sort of the style of 228 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: the Varga girl, because she's very distinct. I mean, she 229 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: kind of has like a very particular kind of thing 230 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: going on. Yeah, it's it's sort of she's both cartoony 231 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: and photo realistic all at the same time, because I mean, 232 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 1: she's obviously incredibly buxom. She's posed in a very kind 233 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: of unnatural way. She's super leggy, super busty, super blonde, 234 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: or if she's a little more dangerous, maybe she's super brunette. Yeah. 235 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: And it's interesting too to see how pin ups played 236 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: into the military imagery as well, because you have pin 237 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: ups in sexy pin up military uniforms. You even have 238 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: one she's topless, but you know, she's covering her side 239 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: boob you can and she can only see her bare 240 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: back and she is pulling out she's presumably putting on 241 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: the uniform of a Women's Auxiliary Core. So it's sort 242 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: of sly in the implication that, yeah, these male soldiers 243 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: are definitely into these pin ups and they find it 244 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: patriotic and they're kind of fighting for her, and also it, 245 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: you know, gives them a little titilation in the trenches. 246 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: But women were aware of them too, so it was 247 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: also a way of saying, well, ladies, if you want 248 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: to be sexy and desirable, well look at this. Look 249 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: at this blonde putting on her women's auxilary xillary Core uniform. 250 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: That could be you too. Why does she use shirt 251 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: when she has a whack hat? It's totally fine, true, 252 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: I mean. And also, by the way, listeners, the hat 253 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: box for this whack Cat Whack being the Women's Army 254 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: Auxiliary Corps, is also beautifully detailed. It's like in this 255 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: lovely striped hat box, which you know, that's fun. Who 256 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: didn't like a hat box? Caroline? And it was this 257 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: beautiful image of this beautiful woman who was used to 258 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: help sell war bonds, recruit women into the war effort, 259 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: and even motivate soldiers sort of remind them what they're 260 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: fighting for. They're fighting for this blonde, all American busty babes, 261 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: you know, come home, to come home safely. To Yeah, 262 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: there were these stories throughout the war of dead soldiers 263 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: being found with Varga Girl pin ups on their persons 264 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: or these calendars. One one soldier died in combat and uh, 265 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: they found his Varga Girl calendar that he had used 266 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: also as sort of a diary as well. So, I 267 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: mean they were very much intertwined with World War two, um, 268 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: but on the home front at Esquire Vargas, Vargas' relationship 269 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 1: with the magazine sours and leaves in ninety six. In 270 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: ninety five, after the war, little magazine called Playboy launches. Yeah, 271 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: and also just a year after that, Esquire finally gets 272 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,640 Speaker 1: in on the game itself and launches its own girly calendars. 273 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 1: So even though they had sort of helped launch this 274 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: whole pin up thing, they had not had their own 275 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: calendars up to this point. So once it's been a 276 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: thing for several years, and once Playboys on the scene, 277 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: they're like, oh, well, we should probably start exploiting images 278 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: of naked women too. Yeah, get on the ball, Esquire. 279 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 1: Come on. I don't know what they were waiting for. 280 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: But you know, we mentioned technology earlier, and as photo 281 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 1: printing technology improves throughout this period, the painted hand airbrushed 282 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: pin up gets retired. And you also have to take 283 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: into account that what's going on culturally in the context 284 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: of the time, and the fact that as more women 285 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 1: post war into the fifties, sixties, and seventies are entering 286 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: the workforce and starting to join up with second wave feminism, 287 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 1: pin ups are no longer an acceptable thing to have 288 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 1: in the workplace. You can't just be hanging up your 289 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: naked lady calendar where other ladies can see that. Yeah, 290 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: that was one thing. A pin up collector commented, saying, 291 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: before the seventies and those feminists, no one thought there 292 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: was anything wrong with these beautiful gals, the good old 293 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 1: days of sexual harassment, before there was even a term 294 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 1: for sexual harassment, Carolina Um. But when it comes to 295 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 1: the heyday of pin ups, before we leave them behind. 296 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,880 Speaker 1: While Vargas does get a lot of the glory, there 297 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: were some notable female pin up artists at work that 298 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: we want to spotlight as well, who arguably created more 299 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: physically precise pin ups. And we're going to talk about 300 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 1: those ladies when we come right back from a quick break. 301 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,959 Speaker 1: So Kristen mentioned the lady pin up painters who were 302 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,679 Speaker 1: in the game and whether they were more precise with 303 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: their art, whether they were more precise in depicting a 304 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,120 Speaker 1: woman's body, because you know, we already talked about how 305 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,199 Speaker 1: the male artists would link in the legs, boost the bust, 306 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 1: all of that stuff, and so were these women doing 307 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: the same thing. While they certainly were presenting uh, sort 308 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: of an idealized version of a woman's body through their art, 309 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: they were creating sort of more anatomically correct figures. Yeah, 310 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 1: and they usually weren't as overtly sexy. They were very 311 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,479 Speaker 1: beautiful and they were still sexy, but not as Vava 312 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: Ba Boom, perhaps as say of Varga girl. And this 313 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 1: is coming from a fantastic article by sociologist Lisa Wade, 314 00:19:58,200 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: and we saw it all the time on the podcast. 315 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: She wrote this over at Collectors Weekly, and she really 316 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 1: highlights three really successful Golden Age pin up painters. Pearl Fresh, Joyce, 317 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: Balanine and Zoe Mozart. And Zoe was probably the most 318 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: publicly visible of the three, both in terms of publicity 319 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: and also pin up art itself. And she was a character. 320 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 1: Well yeah, and the reason she was so visible is 321 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 1: because she herself was a pin up model, whether for 322 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: other artists or for her own art. And I think 323 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:35,959 Speaker 1: that's so fascinating. She was teeny tiny, she was like 324 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 1: what four eleven. She was described as like an eight 325 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: five pound spitfire at one point. Um. But yeah, she 326 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 1: was incredibly interested in the female form, sometimes to the 327 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: point of body snarking. For instance, she ranked women movie 328 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,919 Speaker 1: stars of the time. Her favorites included Ida Lopino, Gene Crane, 329 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: and Mary Anderson, but she was not as approving of 330 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,640 Speaker 1: Veronica leg Yeah. No, she had like very specific criteria 331 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:09,119 Speaker 1: for what she considered the perfect female body. And she 332 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: started out painting cosmetic ads and funny side note, used 333 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 1: her brother Bruce and her sister Marcia to model as couples, 334 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: and Bruce was her favorite lip model, so it all 335 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: these cosmetic ads started to women. If you know you 336 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: had like the disembodied lips, those were Bruce's lips. Getting 337 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: all glammed up. Yeah, there was an ad. It's it's 338 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: basically just the head. It's the painting of just a 339 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 1: woman's face and her hair, and she's got her head 340 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: tilted back to fully illustrate her full shiny lips. And yeah, 341 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 1: those full shiny lips belong to her. But I wonder 342 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: if she made him wear the lipstick. Do you think 343 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: he had to wear lipstick or do you think she 344 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: just kind of, Oh, she was good. I bet she um. 345 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,879 Speaker 1: I bet he didn't have to wear the lipstick. But 346 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: maybe maybe he wanted to. He might have wanted to. 347 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: You know, we don't know that much about Bruce Mosert, 348 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: but we do know that Zoe blew up painting advertisements 349 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 1: and magazine covers. She quickly made a name for herself, 350 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: but when it came to Esquire, they passed her over 351 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: because at one point she thought that she was going 352 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 1: to be tapped to replace Vargas, but Escar was like, thanks, 353 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 1: but no thanks. But she did find steady work with 354 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 1: Brown and Bigelow, which was the nation's biggest calendar company. 355 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:29,159 Speaker 1: Because remember these advertising calendars that usually were decorated with 356 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: pin ups were still very big business at the time, 357 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: and Not only did she create images for the calendars, 358 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 1: but she also created pin up mutoscope cards for World 359 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 1: War two troops. And I had to look up what 360 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 1: a mudscope was, and it's basically just imagine, like, you know, 361 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: how we had those little viewfinder clicky clickie viewfinders in 362 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,439 Speaker 1: the eighties whatever they're called. They were red and they 363 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 1: had a little thing and you clicked them and it 364 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: went to the Yeah, exactly, Um, but yeah, mutoscope was 365 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: like a giant version of that. So instead of looking 366 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: moving images on a screen, you would have an individual experience. 367 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: So it was like a like an old school Google glass, 368 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:11,120 Speaker 1: but just the only thing you could see was babes, right, okay, 369 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,880 Speaker 1: Google babes, Google babes. Um well, Mozart After making lots 370 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: of Google babes moved to Hollywood and Paramount Pictures shot 371 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 1: a short film which I note that is a tongue twister. 372 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 1: Listeners A shot a short film with her for its 373 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 1: Unusual Occupation series, and this is when it talked about 374 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 1: how she not only with a zilli mos pin up 375 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: otics but also a model du Yeah. They had her 376 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: post in one of the images wearing the same little 377 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: costume that the woman in her painting was was wearing 378 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: and and she told somebody later like, well, I mean 379 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 1: that's great now, but I would never be able to 380 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 1: paint a painting in the way they posed me. That's 381 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: just ridiculous. And there's also a photograph of her painting 382 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: the image for the Jane russ A movie Outlaw, where 383 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: Jane Russell's reclined and she's got her like little like 384 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,679 Speaker 1: western get up and she's holding a gun. Um. So 385 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: that's a pretty famous image, which you should also that's 386 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 1: another Google babe. Yeah, that's that's an yeah, actual Google 387 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: image babe. Right. Um, but yeah, Zoe was quoted as saying, 388 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,640 Speaker 1: my whole life centered around men and art. Men were 389 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: easy to come by, and my paintings were my children. 390 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,199 Speaker 1: So she was. She was because she was married what 391 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 1: four times? She was pretty dedicated to her art. So yeah. 392 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 1: And funnily enough, she also wished that mail pin ups 393 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: were a thing. She once said, it's a shame nobody 394 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 1: wanted to hang up pictures of beautiful men in their garages, 395 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 1: but business was business, and one had to meet the demand. Yeah. 396 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: I mean, if the ancient Greeks could sculpt a beautiful 397 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: athletic male nude. Why can't we have male pin up calendars? Well, 398 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: there were beefcake photos, but you know, moms of the 399 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: day weren't allowed to hang those up in the kitchen 400 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 1: in their in their inclusive space and their sphere. Um. Well, 401 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: moving to Pearl Fresh, she's kind of more of a 402 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: mysterious character when compared to Zoe, mostly because her paintings 403 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 1: didn't really hold up, not in terms of style but 404 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,919 Speaker 1: just literally. Uh, she was creating these watercolors that was 405 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: that were difficult to reproduce on a large scale. Yeah, 406 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: and she was super technically skilled with her photo realism 407 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 1: and she was best known for that calendar art in 408 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties. And what's really notable about Pearl Fresh 409 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: is not only how beautiful these women are that she paints, 410 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: but also how athletic they are as well. Um, they're swimming, 411 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,400 Speaker 1: their canoeing, they're playing tennis. As she had this one 412 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: particular aquatic series that did really well, and I thought 413 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,679 Speaker 1: it was it's just interesting to see how she loved 414 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: to see her beautiful women in action. But yeah, that 415 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: a bottic series actually broke records for the publisher and 416 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 1: so people it's not like she was just painting it 417 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 1: for her own enjoyment. People really clamored to get these 418 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 1: athletic beauties. And then we have Joyce Valentine, who is 419 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,399 Speaker 1: actually you've probably seen this. She's best known for the 420 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 1: Copper Tone Girl ad, for which her daughter modeled. Yeah, 421 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: and even though you know, everybody knows her as you know, 422 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 1: the copper Tone artist, and it helped put her on 423 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: the map. Ultimately later in life, it bummed her out 424 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: that that was her signature work because she said, quote 425 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,120 Speaker 1: and it's just another baby ad kind of boring. Yeah, well, 426 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 1: not to mention people. For decades now, I've been banging 427 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: down her daughter's door to interview about having her butt show, 428 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:49,160 Speaker 1: I know, being the copper Tone baby. Um. And Joyce also, though, 429 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: experienced career sexism early on, so she was very talented 430 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: from a young age. And at one point she enters 431 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: this art contest and wins, and the prize is a 432 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: scholar our ship to the Disney School for Animation. But 433 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: when the Disney rep gets a little Joyce on the 434 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 1: phone to say, hey, congratulations, let's plan your trip out here, 435 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: she's turned away once the representative realizes that she is 436 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: a she because Disney was like, oh wait, yeah, no, 437 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: we don't really allow girls to come out here and 438 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 1: do this. And if you want to learn more about that, 439 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 1: we have done a great podcast on the women behind Disney. 440 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: But yeah, she's basically told no, women have babies. You don't. 441 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:40,679 Speaker 1: You're you're a poor investment. Um. But despite that, she 442 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: was well respected among other top named pin up artists, 443 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: particularly during her stint at Steven's Gross studio, where she 444 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: was part of what was called the sun Blow Circle, 445 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: named for Coca Santa creator hadn't sun Blow. She was 446 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,880 Speaker 1: also super close pals with Gil Evgren, who's a fellow 447 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: pin up artist, and she and Elgrant even posed for 448 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:06,400 Speaker 1: each other because Balentine was also big on Payton dudes. Yeah, 449 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: Zoe wasn't the only person who liked to paint dudes. 450 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: Well you know, I mean, I would imagine that, if 451 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,439 Speaker 1: only for Variety's sake, you might want to paint a 452 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: fella every now and then. Um. But Ed Franklin, a 453 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 1: friend of hers, said she was an icon for a 454 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: woman in a man's world, and she kind of got 455 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 1: what was considered pigeonholed into advertising art because this was 456 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: the I mean earliest of the Mad Been Season's days 457 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,239 Speaker 1: where everything was being done by hand. You don't have 458 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: photo technology to the point that you're having these, you know, 459 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: glossy images being reproduced. It's people like Joyce and Pearl 460 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: and Zoe who are painting the actual ad campaigns. And 461 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: so her work was featured in all sorts of advertisements 462 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: for big name companies including Coke Yeah, and her take, 463 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: Joyce's take in particular on the pin up was that 464 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 1: she said, the trick is to make a pin up flirtatious. 465 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 1: She said she always made sure, even for her stuff 466 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: that was featured in Esquire and Penthouse, she always made 467 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: sure to have clothes or at least a towel covering 468 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: up some of the lady bits because she says that 469 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: she wasn't into the whole quote unquote dirty thing that 470 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: Penthouse and Playboy we're doing at the time. Well, and 471 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: that kind of segues us into the next thing we 472 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: want to talk about, which is what do these incredibly 473 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: popular then and now images of these idealized women really 474 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: say about the time and also about us today in 475 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: female sexuality. Because pin Up Dealer, Marry and Old Phillips 476 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: on those three female pin up artists said, I think 477 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: they would consider themselves feminists and the thing is feminism, 478 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: as we mentioned earlier, was partly blamed for the demise 479 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: is of pin ups in the nineteen seventies, although more 480 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: in reality it probably had a lot more to do 481 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 1: with Playboy, more explicit pornography and photo reproductive technology. Um. 482 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: But there are arguments that pin up imagery both then 483 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 1: and today, in this kind of pin up nostalgia, like 484 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 1: what you're talking about earlier with the Vanity Fair photo spreads, 485 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 1: does have tinges of feminism embedded in it. Yeah. Um. 486 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: Maria Elena Buzak, who we mentioned earlier, does argue that 487 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 1: we culturally have a lot to learn from pin ups, 488 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: as pin up interpretation is one of the myriad ways, 489 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: she says, in which women have defined, politicized, and represented 490 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: their own sexuality in the public eye, and similarly, how 491 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: feminism has shaped women's sexuality. Yeah. And she wrote an 492 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 1: entire book about this called pin Up Girls. That's Girl 493 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: as in The Riot Girl, Girl with No Eye, feminism, sexuality, 494 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: and pop culture, and she argues that pin ups embrace 495 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: both the normative because these are ladies going about their 496 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: typical feminine business and the transgressive because it also shows 497 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: women being sexual, so it presents this taboo for mass 498 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: pop cultural consumption and views. That goes on to talk 499 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: about how the pin up girl occupies this sort of 500 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: gray area between portraiture, which is respectable and pornography, which 501 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 1: is obviously not respectable to most people. But she says 502 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: it's too pryan to ever be considered fine art, even 503 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: though the quality of the photo realistic portraiture people like 504 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: Pearl Fresh and her athletes were technically impeccable. Yeah, And 505 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: that's one thing that we haven't even touched on at all, 506 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 1: is how it's starting. I think it was in the 507 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: late eighties or early nineties when these pin up collectors 508 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 1: start coming out of the woodwork, and this question arises 509 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 1: of well is this art? Because it had never really 510 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: been considered art worthy of any kind of critique because 511 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: it was commercial and it was sexy. Right. Yeah, So 512 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: even when whether it was a woman like Zoe Mozart 513 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: or somebody like Vargas, even when they created a beautiful 514 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: image that was an oil painting, like a big scale painting, 515 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: that stuff was just thrown out with the garbage. On 516 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: a lot of cases because it was like, oh well, okay, great, 517 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 1: this is your rough draft. We've printed copies of it. 518 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: It made it into the calendar this year. We don't 519 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: need it anymore. And now though, because there is a 520 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: market for those originals, I mean, if you can get 521 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: your hands on a Vargas, then you're gonna you could 522 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 1: make a lot of money at an art auction. But 523 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 1: being of Vargas, so when we consider the pin ups 524 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: in World War Two and how they were used to 525 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 1: sell and propel the war effort. Speaking to The New 526 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: York Times, use that calls pin ups modern war goddesses. So, 527 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 1: I mean, that's a that's a pretty powerful kind of 528 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: statement to make. And in her book pin Up Girls 529 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 1: Music talks about how quote the Varga Girl presented the 530 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: American public with a hutu for unheard of combination of 531 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: conventional beauty, blatant sexuality, professional independence, and wholesome patriotism that 532 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: resembled a similar contradictory cocktail of attributes cultivated by young 533 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: women of the period. Yeah, so she was a bundle 534 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: of contradictions. She was wholesome, but having her dress lifted up, 535 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 1: you know, she was innocent and sort of vacant but 536 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: sexy and beautiful. Um, she could be used to advertise Schlitz, 537 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: or she could be used to inspire people to go 538 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: to war. Yeah, and there was in that New York 539 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 1: Times article. You know, they're talking to Beau Steck, who's 540 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: very raw rob about these pin ups, calling the modern 541 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 1: war goddesses. But then there was an older woman they 542 00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: were talking to. Um, I forget if it was an 543 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 1: art creck or art historian, and she was saying, you know, 544 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: because she lived during this time when these pin ups 545 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,719 Speaker 1: were everywhere. She was saying, I mean, but at the 546 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:13,760 Speaker 1: same time, those were our idealized women. Those were the 547 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: the types of women that we strived to look like. 548 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 1: That was our standard. Yeah, it's kind of like, you know, 549 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 1: put yourself in the in the shoes of someone who's 550 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,799 Speaker 1: living fifties sixty seventy years from now looking back at 551 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 1: like our Gucci ads and calling them, you know, revolutionary 552 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,839 Speaker 1: and feminist and sexy, and it's like, well, it's it's 553 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:36,840 Speaker 1: more complicated than that. It's not just feminist or not feminist, 554 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: sexy or not sexy, exploitive or not exploitative. Um, there's 555 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 1: there's a lot of gray area when it comes to 556 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: the philosophy behind what we ourselves are projecting onto these 557 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,760 Speaker 1: pin up girls. Well, and there's definitely been in more 558 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 1: recent years this attempt at reclamation because there are a 559 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 1: number of women who are notly just drawn to the 560 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: pin up aesthetic um, but also find it very empowering. 561 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 1: And it's worth noting too that Lisa Wade in that 562 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: Collector's Weekly article reported that there are more female pin 563 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 1: up collectors than male. But they're even beyond just collecting images. 564 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: There are these now specialized pin up photography studios. There's 565 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 1: one here in Atlanta, um that are set up for 566 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 1: women to come and get dressed up and have these 567 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:37,280 Speaker 1: super sexy vintagy photos taken of them. Yeah. Um. Sophie Spinnell, 568 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,800 Speaker 1: who's the founder of San Francisco Shameless Photography, told the 569 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:45,760 Speaker 1: Huffington Post that they're trying to create sexy, feminist, body 570 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 1: positive images, and she says the most important audience for 571 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 1: the Shameless pin up series is the models themselves. I 572 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:53,880 Speaker 1: hope that when they look at these images they can 573 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,879 Speaker 1: see how truly powerful, inspiring and sold deep beautiful they 574 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 1: really are. And it's it's sort of reclaiming a different 575 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,240 Speaker 1: kind of femininity what the New York Times Style section 576 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:09,319 Speaker 1: calls a hip femininity of not following along with the 577 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,880 Speaker 1: cape mosses or the gazelles or whoever, like the tall, 578 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,360 Speaker 1: skinny figure that is unattainable for so many people, especially 579 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 1: if you're just short. You're never gonna be nine ft tall. 580 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: But if that's what the image you grew up looking at, 581 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 1: it's almost like looking at the image of a pin 582 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 1: up model who already does have hips and a butt 583 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,359 Speaker 1: and boobs. It's like, well, I have those things. We 584 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,360 Speaker 1: can work with this. Yeah. I think that that's really 585 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 1: what resonates is that this modern day pin up revival, 586 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 1: even stretching into rockabilly culture and style, is very more 587 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:48,439 Speaker 1: body friendly for a lot of women. Those styles are 588 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 1: incredibly flattering on more curvaceous frames. Yeah, And so I 589 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 1: mean I would argue that, I mean, there's a lot 590 00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,799 Speaker 1: of argument on the internet under this Huffington Post article 591 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: and for picular about whether pin up imagery is feminist 592 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: or not. And I think that if something empowers you, 593 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,799 Speaker 1: it's none of my business whether it empowers you or not. 594 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: Good for you, good for you, not for me. That 595 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 1: whole quote that We've saided before on the podcast. Um, 596 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 1: but there is something nice about people being able to, 597 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 1: through whatever means, take pride in their own figures and 598 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: feel comfortable in their own skin. Yeah. And then New 599 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 1: York Time style piece also suggests that there is a 600 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:37,239 Speaker 1: comfort too in the visual familiarity of those kinds of styles. 601 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: And it's understated sexuality. It's hyper feminine, but at the 602 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:47,319 Speaker 1: same time it's not like extremely explicit you know you 603 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,400 Speaker 1: have You're still you're still covered, but it's accenting your 604 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: feminine curves and not just displaying your skin. Well, it 605 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 1: seems to also it's it's coinciding with the Zoey Deschanel's 606 00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:58,719 Speaker 1: of the world, who are saying I can wear a 607 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,719 Speaker 1: Peter Pan collar and still be a feminist. You know. 608 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 1: It's the it's the whole attitude of the Third Waivers 609 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:09,520 Speaker 1: who are saying, no, I'm not rejecting femininity, I'm embracing 610 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,440 Speaker 1: who I am and what I look like. And this 611 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:14,880 Speaker 1: pin up culture just seems to be sort of parallel 612 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 1: to all that. But meanwhile, Andrea Dorkin not surprisingly is 613 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: having none of this pin up appreciation. So a little 614 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: bit of background the Spencer Art Museum at the University 615 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 1: of Kansas was gifted the massive esquire Um photo collection 616 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:44,319 Speaker 1: containing so many of vargas Is pieces. And so they 617 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,839 Speaker 1: you know, they get all this work, and they're all 618 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:52,239 Speaker 1: these essays commissioned by the museum to analyze and critique 619 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 1: this pin up imagery and particularly these Varga girls and 620 00:38:55,680 --> 00:39:00,480 Speaker 1: kind of place them in art history. And dork In 621 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 1: is just so enraged by the entire thing. And and 622 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,600 Speaker 1: she actually, I mean she's the one also who was 623 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: specifically commissioned to write a piece about this. This is 624 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,200 Speaker 1: not her, just like off on the side saying no, no, no, 625 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: shaking her finger. So at one point, she writes, Vargas 626 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 1: is subject or object, to be more precise, is some lazy, 627 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:27,000 Speaker 1: fetishistic view of white women, pale women, usually blonde. The 628 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 1: drawing itself delineates the boundaries of a non existence, a 629 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:36,920 Speaker 1: white female nonentity. Yeah, basically saying that this is just 630 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,279 Speaker 1: an empty vessel for us to pour all of our 631 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:44,239 Speaker 1: masturbatory fantasies into. She goes on to say that this 632 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 1: is a sambo like representation of white women, and noting 633 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 1: the predominance of blonde hair. She does go so far 634 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:55,439 Speaker 1: as to mention that Americans weren't the only ones during 635 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,279 Speaker 1: World War Two to have these images that Germans had 636 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,279 Speaker 1: their own equivalent to, and she goes so far as 637 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 1: to say that Germans and Americans are fighting for the 638 00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: same arean image. Oh goodness, yeah. And so she concludes, 639 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 1: I don't know why Argus did these drawings except for 640 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:15,280 Speaker 1: the money and hatred of women, including women of color. 641 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 1: So she sees no value in it whatsoever, to the 642 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,800 Speaker 1: point of saying in the essay University of Kansas, you 643 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 1: didn't even have to accept these this donation, this gift, 644 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: but you took it anyway, and so you're playing into 645 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 1: the whole system um Andrew had worken though, for those 646 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 1: of you who aren't familiar with her, is has been 647 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:38,879 Speaker 1: staunchly anti pornography for years, so this is very much 648 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,480 Speaker 1: in line with, you know, the rest of her body, 649 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,400 Speaker 1: her broader body of work. But she does make a 650 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:51,800 Speaker 1: really good point, particularly in terms of that idealization of 651 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 1: that usually blonde, white woman. I mean that that's the 652 00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,319 Speaker 1: thing that jumped out to me too while researching this 653 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:01,759 Speaker 1: and thinking about all of those pin ups that were 654 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:06,000 Speaker 1: on my wall. It was just it's all white women, 655 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:10,800 Speaker 1: all of them. But it's it's not it's the furthest 656 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:12,799 Speaker 1: thing from the truth to say that black pin ups 657 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:18,600 Speaker 1: and black sexuality did not exist in media. Um, we 658 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 1: were looking at Sydney f Lewis, writing over at baby 659 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:26,960 Speaker 1: center dot Com had a fascinating column about black pin 660 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:30,120 Speaker 1: ups because she she starts off by talking about how 661 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,040 Speaker 1: you know, she was just looking into it. You know, 662 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,399 Speaker 1: we're there black pin ups. Maybe there was too much 663 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,319 Speaker 1: uh exclusion from the industry based on race, So maybe 664 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:42,480 Speaker 1: they weren't even permitted to to model or to you know, 665 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:46,160 Speaker 1: be performers in burlesque shows like white women were. But 666 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,720 Speaker 1: as she's doing her research and she comes across old 667 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 1: issues of Jet magazine in the fifties, she's like, oh, wait, no, 668 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 1: there's a bajillion of these beautiful, sexy women of color 669 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,560 Speaker 1: doing the same time of modeling that white women were doing. 670 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,719 Speaker 1: It's just that white people weren't consuming it, so it 671 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,880 Speaker 1: didn't become part of a larger mainstream. Yeah. I mean 672 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:12,319 Speaker 1: there was even the Jet Calendar, which had the very 673 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,839 Speaker 1: saucy tagline score with a Jet mate every month. But 674 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:19,360 Speaker 1: and again, very similar kinds of pin up posing. Um 675 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 1: in nineteen four, black photographer Howard Moorehead made an entire 676 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:29,440 Speaker 1: photo essay called Gentlemen Prefer Bronze, celebrating the black pin up, 677 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:34,440 Speaker 1: and Jim Lindeman, also writing about this over at Collector's Weekly, 678 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 1: talks about how, yes, these images existed, particularly in African 679 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:46,239 Speaker 1: American publications like Jet Magazine, but they were more broadly 680 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:51,359 Speaker 1: considered to be pornographic. They were more specialty because of 681 00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:53,359 Speaker 1: you know, all of all the things we've talked about 682 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:55,879 Speaker 1: before on the podcast in terms of the hyper sexualization 683 00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,520 Speaker 1: of women of color for time immemorial, and that is 684 00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,120 Speaker 1: still a live and well during the mid century when 685 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:06,439 Speaker 1: this is happening. So Lindaman writes, the nineteen sixty six 686 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,560 Speaker 1: Pussycat calendar of black pinups is just like the white 687 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:14,120 Speaker 1: pinup calendars found in gas stations, but this was produced 688 00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:18,920 Speaker 1: by pornographer Ruben Sturman rather than for example, your favorite 689 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,520 Speaker 1: brand of gasoline additive. Because it's almost like the way 690 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,880 Speaker 1: that black pin ups and uh, these images were treated. 691 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,080 Speaker 1: It's almost like, oh, well, no, the blonde, white woman 692 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:34,120 Speaker 1: who is essentially naked, if not you know, totally naked. Um. 693 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,759 Speaker 1: Now that's that's a pure form of sexuality that's been 694 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:39,680 Speaker 1: that's been used to inspire people to do great things, 695 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:43,600 Speaker 1: whereas apparently, according to the way that these things are produced, 696 00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,440 Speaker 1: like well know, the black sexuality scary though, and that's 697 00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,960 Speaker 1: that's not for for consumption, for white consumption, right Like, 698 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,279 Speaker 1: So so it's fine, and it's not going to be 699 00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,640 Speaker 1: behind a brown cover if it's in a jet magazine 700 00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:59,680 Speaker 1: because those are black people looking at that. So that's okay. 701 00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,920 Speaker 1: But if you're a white guy and you have uh, 702 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 1: you know, a black pinup calendar hanging up in your garage, 703 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:11,200 Speaker 1: then whoa dude, you're incredibly deviant. What are you into? Oh? 704 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:16,760 Speaker 1: Just beauty? Okay. So as vacant as that old school 705 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:20,560 Speaker 1: pin up imagery might seem to be, I think we 706 00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:25,359 Speaker 1: can conclude Caroline that there are definitely layers to her. 707 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,759 Speaker 1: There layers to that duck face. Yeah, what would you 708 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:32,080 Speaker 1: tell your your college decorating self. Now, if you were 709 00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 1: to walk into younger Christian's apartment and see those pin 710 00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:36,839 Speaker 1: ups on the wall. I mean I don't think I'd 711 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:38,600 Speaker 1: freak out. I would just be like, oh man, you've 712 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:40,680 Speaker 1: got to get out of this apartment. This department is 713 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:44,160 Speaker 1: so sad. It was really like just the saddest apartment. 714 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:48,120 Speaker 1: It had like one small window and just stained carpet. 715 00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:50,960 Speaker 1: It was the last college apartment that I lived in. 716 00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,960 Speaker 1: Um so we Honestly, the pin ups were the last 717 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:59,000 Speaker 1: of my words at the time. Yeah, but I don't. Yeah, 718 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,920 Speaker 1: I mean I can't. As we're going to talk about 719 00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:07,319 Speaker 1: in our next episode on Betty Page, I get to 720 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:13,080 Speaker 1: align with trying to, you know, indow too much meaning 721 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,879 Speaker 1: into these images too. Yeah, I mean they were made, 722 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,360 Speaker 1: they were made to sell things, yeah, and they did. 723 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:21,680 Speaker 1: But I do think it's really fascinating and want to 724 00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:26,799 Speaker 1: hear from listeners about, you know how this nostalgia for 725 00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,080 Speaker 1: pin ups that is very much alive and well today 726 00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,560 Speaker 1: and if there there is any kind of if there 727 00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:36,319 Speaker 1: are any kinds of conflicted feelings about that, or if 728 00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:40,239 Speaker 1: you love pin ups, let us know. Mom Stuff at 729 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,440 Speaker 1: how stuff Works dot Com is our email address. You 730 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:46,920 Speaker 1: can also tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast hashtag pinups week, 731 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:49,920 Speaker 1: or messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple of 732 00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:51,959 Speaker 1: messages to share with you when we come right back 733 00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:59,680 Speaker 1: from a quick break. Well, I have a letter here 734 00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:03,879 Speaker 1: from Jasmine about our Trophy Wives episode. She says when 735 00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,200 Speaker 1: I first read the title, I had an image in 736 00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:08,960 Speaker 1: my head that was completely different than the one you described. 737 00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:11,879 Speaker 1: I thought of my experience in college where both men 738 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,160 Speaker 1: and women were looking for their picture perfect match. Where 739 00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,839 Speaker 1: the future lawyer meets the other future lawyer and they 740 00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:21,920 Speaker 1: get engaged days before graduation. She in turn becomes the 741 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,800 Speaker 1: trophy wife, and that she no longer focuses on becoming 742 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:28,520 Speaker 1: a lawyer, but instead the perfect housewife. She'll host all 743 00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:30,759 Speaker 1: the dinner parties and is a symbol that he has 744 00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:34,120 Speaker 1: it all, the perfect job and life at home. I 745 00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,240 Speaker 1: remember hearing women claim that they only came to college 746 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,120 Speaker 1: to find a husband. Jasmine, I remember hearing that too. 747 00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:43,440 Speaker 1: She goes on to say, I was pleasantly surprised that 748 00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:47,000 Speaker 1: your episode touched on everything, but my original thought, it's 749 00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:49,279 Speaker 1: a really good example of how the trophy wife is 750 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:53,040 Speaker 1: a stereotype we choose to see, but isn't really there. 751 00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,279 Speaker 1: Maybe people just marry the person they're compatible with and 752 00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:58,560 Speaker 1: we just have to put them into a category and 753 00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:01,560 Speaker 1: label them. Thanks for taking the time to go more 754 00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:03,759 Speaker 1: in depth on the topic. I really enjoy listening to 755 00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,879 Speaker 1: your podcast. Thanks, Jasmine. Well, I've got a letter here 756 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:10,840 Speaker 1: from Julia about our Divorced Women podcast and her letters 757 00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,480 Speaker 1: a little bit long, but I want to read the 758 00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:16,399 Speaker 1: whole thing because she has some really important stuff to say, 759 00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:19,680 Speaker 1: so she writes, I love the podcast. I found the 760 00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:22,600 Speaker 1: Divorced Women episode very interesting, but I was disappointed that 761 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,880 Speaker 1: you didn't really address the young divorce day. I was 762 00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,000 Speaker 1: in my late twenties when I got divorced in two 763 00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,799 Speaker 1: thousand and eight, after only three years of marriage. I 764 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,040 Speaker 1: looked for resources to help me with what I found 765 00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,840 Speaker 1: to be a truly devastating event. But everything I found, books, 766 00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:41,279 Speaker 1: support groups, divorce care websites were geared towards separated and 767 00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,640 Speaker 1: divorced women and men with children, complicated legal and or 768 00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:48,200 Speaker 1: custody situations, and lots of assets they had to split. 769 00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:50,799 Speaker 1: I understand why this is, but it would have been 770 00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,000 Speaker 1: nice to not feel like a childless, divorced loser who 771 00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:57,719 Speaker 1: was totally alone. More disheartening, however, was that so many 772 00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,840 Speaker 1: people I knew didn't seem to take my divorce very seriously. 773 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:02,920 Speaker 1: I was in a lot of pain, and some people 774 00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:07,239 Speaker 1: treated my marriage as a quote starter marriage. The reactions 775 00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:08,719 Speaker 1: seemed to be that I should have been able to 776 00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:11,840 Speaker 1: just brush myself off and start dating again, and because 777 00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:14,000 Speaker 1: I was young, it wasn't that big of a deal 778 00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:17,160 Speaker 1: to have my whole world turned upside down. The advice 779 00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:19,520 Speaker 1: I found online and in books mirrored what I was 780 00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:22,360 Speaker 1: hearing from friends and acquaintances. I had never heard of 781 00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:25,560 Speaker 1: starter marriages before, and I found some media resources that 782 00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,279 Speaker 1: suggested this was a new trend at the time. Young 783 00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:30,560 Speaker 1: people get married, tried out for a few years to 784 00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:33,640 Speaker 1: practice their relationship skills, then get divorced on a whim, 785 00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:36,680 Speaker 1: and later pursue a marriage that they intend to take seriously. 786 00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:39,640 Speaker 1: I would like to know where this idea came from. 787 00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:41,480 Speaker 1: Although I was the first person I knew to get 788 00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:44,239 Speaker 1: divorced in my twenties, as the years have passed, I've 789 00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:47,000 Speaker 1: witnessed more and more of my relatively young friends getting divorced, 790 00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:48,839 Speaker 1: and I can say for sure that none of them 791 00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:52,200 Speaker 1: did it on a whim. It's a painful, life altering process, 792 00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:54,879 Speaker 1: and I can't imagine that any of my friends would 793 00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:58,840 Speaker 1: have ever described their failed marriages as starter marriages. I 794 00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:00,640 Speaker 1: also want to share a theory of out why women 795 00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:04,839 Speaker 1: in heterosexual marriages file for divorce more often. Again, this 796 00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:07,080 Speaker 1: may apply largely to the younger crowd. But in my 797 00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:09,640 Speaker 1: case and in the cases of my divorced friends, the 798 00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:13,000 Speaker 1: wife always filed because the husband simply wouldn't do it. 799 00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:15,239 Speaker 1: Even when the husband was the one who wanted the 800 00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,239 Speaker 1: separation and wouldn't agree to work on the relationship, even 801 00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:20,360 Speaker 1: when he moved out, cut marital ties, was living with 802 00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:24,439 Speaker 1: another woman, etcetera, he would not file for divorce. These 803 00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:26,920 Speaker 1: men didn't want to be married, but they didn't seem 804 00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:29,920 Speaker 1: to want to be divorced either. The wife always had 805 00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:32,560 Speaker 1: to actually file the paperwork after waiting months for the 806 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:34,840 Speaker 1: husband to do it. My theory is that men of 807 00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:37,520 Speaker 1: the younger generation are accustomed to women taking the initiative 808 00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:40,799 Speaker 1: in almost every aspect of the romantic and domestic relationships, 809 00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:43,160 Speaker 1: and they're willing to wait it out to avoid doing 810 00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:45,640 Speaker 1: the work. I guess that's a nice way of saying 811 00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:48,680 Speaker 1: that men are lazy. In my case, I believe it 812 00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:50,600 Speaker 1: was also because my ex husband wanted to be able 813 00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:53,360 Speaker 1: to tell people that I was the one who filed 814 00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:57,000 Speaker 1: in order to paint himself in a better light. Anyway, 815 00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:00,759 Speaker 1: keep up the good work, I'll keep listening. So while 816 00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:04,799 Speaker 1: I'm not going to endorse broadbrush stereotype that men are 817 00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,759 Speaker 1: lazy Julia, everything else I think is really important. We 818 00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:11,480 Speaker 1: didn't talk about the young divorces, and that's something that 819 00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:15,760 Speaker 1: I've observed as well among my friend circle of knowing 820 00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:18,960 Speaker 1: you know, seeing going to you know friends weddings, and 821 00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:25,200 Speaker 1: now knowing them uh in their new post divorce um 822 00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:29,560 Speaker 1: status is so more resources, it sounds like, are definitely needed, 823 00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:31,120 Speaker 1: and we also need to kill the myth of the 824 00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:33,920 Speaker 1: starter marriage. So curious to here from other folks who 825 00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:37,080 Speaker 1: might have experienced similar things to moms. Stuff at how 826 00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:40,520 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com is our email address, and again 827 00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:43,080 Speaker 1: for links to all of our social media as well 828 00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:46,640 Speaker 1: as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including this 829 00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:49,000 Speaker 1: one with all of our links. If you want to 830 00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,960 Speaker 1: see more pics of those of our GA girls, head 831 00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:58,720 Speaker 1: on over to stuff mom Never Told You dot com 832 00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,160 Speaker 1: for more on this and that's of other topics. Is 833 00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:10,360 Speaker 1: it how staff works dot com