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Speaker 1: From Meat Eaters World News headquarters in Bozeman, Montana. This

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Speaker 1: is Col's Week in Review with Ryan cow Calai. Here's Cal. Hey, everybody,

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Speaker 1: welcome to another episode of the cal the Wild podcast.

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Speaker 1: We have another super informative guest today, mister Terry Baker

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Speaker 1: for the Society of American Foresters. Our topic is going

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Speaker 1: to be one that we've been working on for a

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Speaker 1: while here, and it is the state of our forests,

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Speaker 1: our national forests here in the US of A. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: what we'd like to get into is we have had

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Speaker 1: some interesting things that have jumped off this topic at

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Speaker 1: the federal level, layoffs, rehirings, the mandate to lighten staff

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Speaker 1: at all of our federal agencies, and we've also had

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Speaker 1: an executive order to produce more timber on our working

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Speaker 1: for us here in America. I can take guesses, but

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Speaker 1: I am by no means an expert, So we have

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Speaker 1: reached out to uh Terry Baker, CEO of the Society

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Speaker 1: of American Foresters. Terry, thank you very much for jumping

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Speaker 1: on here. Would you mind just giving us a little

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Speaker 1: bit of your your background as well as what is

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Speaker 1: the Society of American Foresters.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely thanks for having me cal and glad to be

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Speaker 2: here in the wild with you this today. But yes, so,

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Speaker 2: as a CEO of the Society of American Foresters, we

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Speaker 2: are a professional association focused on scientific, sustainable management of

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Speaker 2: our nation's force. We achieved that mention through a variety

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Speaker 2: of programming, through providing educational opportunities for professionals in this

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Speaker 2: space in both forestry and urban forestry. We also credit

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Speaker 2: university programs to set the standard for forestry and natural

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Speaker 2: resources management. Provide professional certifications as well as newsletters and

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Speaker 2: two scientific journals for people to publish in doing a

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Speaker 2: research and forestry and natural resources conservation, so the Journal

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Speaker 2: of Forestry and the Journal of Forest Science. What's also

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Speaker 2: unique about us this year as we claim to be

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Speaker 2: able to set the standard for forest practices. This is

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Speaker 2: our one hundred and twenty fifth anniversary as an organization,

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Speaker 2: so I say it's been in the game for quite

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Speaker 2: some time. So we're excited to be able to share

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Speaker 2: our insights through myself as the CEO on these interesting

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Speaker 2: times and topics. Myself, I have served. Actually I'm a forester.

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Speaker 2: I have a forestry degree from the University of Florida

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Speaker 2: and from Yale University and have worked for the US

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Speaker 2: Forest Service for roughly about nineteen years prior to coming

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Speaker 2: to saf where I've been the CEO for about six

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Speaker 2: years now. So worked in a variety of places across

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Speaker 2: the country and engaged in a variety of topics around

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Speaker 2: forest management and a variety of user management regarding public

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Speaker 2: land and the Forest Service and Forest Service land, so

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Speaker 2: in research as well. So looking forward to this conversation

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Speaker 2: about you know, kind of where things are and where

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Speaker 2: we hope for them to go and how do we

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Speaker 2: try to maneuver through all these nuanced details.

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Speaker 1: Awesome, Well, I'm excited. It's a huge topic. We don't

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Speaker 1: have to go all the way back, but we really should. Right,

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Speaker 1: It's okay, So we'll establish a few.

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Speaker 2: Things, sure thing.

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Speaker 1: For us or just just giant gardens. They're they're growing trees,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's uh something that oddly enough gets

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Speaker 1: overlooked when we talk about timber management. This stuff's got

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Speaker 1: to have time to grow. Absolutely, and back in the

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Speaker 1: in the early days, we kind of had industry running

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Speaker 1: amok in the name of progress across our forests, and

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Speaker 1: there are some some practices that were probably more detrimental

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Speaker 1: to the long term health of our big garden, and

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Speaker 1: through some some foresight and some reactionary measures, we uh

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Speaker 1: now have a national Forest system that regulates the harvest

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Speaker 1: and management on national forests.

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Speaker 2: Decent enough job, close, No, No, I think you did

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Speaker 2: a great job with some of the high points. I

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Speaker 2: think that what was really interesting in regards to what

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Speaker 2: was established as the national reserves back in the late

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Speaker 2: eighteen hundreds, it actually had a lot more to do

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Speaker 2: with ranching. It was the byproduct of lumber from cutting

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Speaker 2: down trees, but it was more so the ability of

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Speaker 2: ranchers to move across the country pretty quickly. That was

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Speaker 2: a really strong impetus for the for service to be

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Speaker 2: created and have those reserves created, primarily in the western US.

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Speaker 2: And then you have other legislation that really incited the

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Speaker 2: weak sac really inside the creation of National Force seas

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Speaker 2: of the Mississippi. But absolutely, at one point we did

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Speaker 2: have a dynamic where, you know, post World War Two,

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Speaker 2: where there was a lot of active management and looking

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Speaker 2: at managing national force in a similar manner that you

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Speaker 2: wouldn't manage industrial force for producing a lot of lumber

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Speaker 2: for all those folks coming home that needed new homes

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Speaker 2: and all the opportunities to support them and get you know,

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Speaker 2: building those homes, and so that was a big push.

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Speaker 2: But then the thought came in, like you mentioned around

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Speaker 2: the you know, Clean Water Act, Clean Air Act, various

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Speaker 2: other pieces of legislation, National Forest Management Act that that

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Speaker 2: looked at this from a more holistic perspective because like

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Speaker 2: you mentioned, these are our giant gardens. Yes, they grow trees,

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Speaker 2: but they and that those trees that grow habitat for

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Speaker 2: a variety of species that are used for food, they

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Speaker 2: grow habitat for wildlife, they grow habitat for fish and

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Speaker 2: clean water. So so really trying to bring all those

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Speaker 2: components into the value of our national force was was

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Speaker 2: a critical piece of how do we look at this

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Speaker 2: beyond producing lumber products long term?

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Speaker 1: And what does management mean when when somebody says we

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Speaker 1: need to manage our for us, what does that mean

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Speaker 1: to you? Terry?

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Speaker 2: Yes, that is a great question. It really means a

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Speaker 2: lot of things, and that's that's probably how we oversimplify

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Speaker 2: managing by using over using that term. But when it

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Speaker 2: comes to managing a forest, it could be everything from

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Speaker 2: the removal of commercial sized trees for blumber production. It

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Speaker 2: can mean doing what we referred to as hazardous fuels treatments,

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Speaker 2: which is going on and removing some of the smaller

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Speaker 2: material that can can help build up a lot of

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Speaker 2: heat if a fire were to start and cause a

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Speaker 2: very impactful, large scale wildfire or very intense wildfire in

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Speaker 2: a certain place. But it can also relate to you know,

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Speaker 2: I worked in western Oregon and we were tipping trees

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Speaker 2: into rivers to create habitat for bull, trout and salmon.

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Speaker 2: So so managing a forest really has a widespread set

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Speaker 2: of you know, aspects and criteria, and also the proper

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Speaker 2: management action made be to do nothing in certain places,

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Speaker 2: and that could be because of heritage and or tribal

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Speaker 2: locations that need to be kept safe. It can also

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Speaker 2: be for unique habitats. You know, there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: conversation about old growth force and oftentimes when you're looking

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Speaker 2: at a piece of a force, or as we call it,

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Speaker 2: a stand, a forest stand, oftentimes those things are all

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Speaker 2: taken into consideration wet areas, rivers, water bodies, but also

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Speaker 2: these are just really unique, big old trees and they

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Speaker 2: should be left if we're going to go in and

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Speaker 2: do any of those other treatments that I mentioned to

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Speaker 2: you that we might be doing. So management is a

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Speaker 2: simple term for a lot of complicated options out there

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Speaker 2: to do what's best for the forest. At the end

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Speaker 2: of the day. That is what we're looking at, is

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Speaker 2: what is going to help keep that force healthy, help

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Speaker 2: keep it sustainable, to support a wide variety of resources

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Speaker 2: and needs. In some cases that is producing commercial material,

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Speaker 2: but oftentimes that can be a byproduct of just keeping

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Speaker 2: a forest density down. It healthy.

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Speaker 1: And is there a consensus on what healthy is?

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Speaker 2: Oh, you're asking you all the easy questions. You know,

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Speaker 2: I don't know if there really is a consensus on

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Speaker 2: what one would call a healthy forest. I think there

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Speaker 2: are a lot of perspectives on what that could really mean.

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Speaker 2: And I think for for us, let's say, you know,

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Speaker 2: within forestry, within the society American foresters, a healthy forest

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Speaker 2: is one that is you know, if you if you

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Speaker 2: had to think of it like a let's use a

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Speaker 2: race car, it's it's firing on all cylinders. And so

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Speaker 2: you have you have a density of trees. You have

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Speaker 2: trees that are being that are able to grow, you know,

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Speaker 2: for lack of a better terminent their optimum potential you

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Speaker 2: have you know, with that you have solid spacing so

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Speaker 2: that there is light getting to the floor of the forest.

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Speaker 2: And so you have that you know mid story of

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Speaker 2: you know, medicinal plants or edible plants or or things

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Speaker 2: of that nature that may be for people and for

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Speaker 2: animals for forage. You have good shading for water bodies

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Speaker 2: that help deal with temperature issues that keep that ecosystem

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Speaker 2: healthy for fish. So it really is a space that

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Speaker 2: has all those things. You have trees that are healthier

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Speaker 2: and vigorous enough where they can fend off insect and

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Speaker 2: disease outbreaks. So there's all these nuances and dynamics that

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Speaker 2: come into what is considered a healthy force. Now there's

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Speaker 2: also folks that just say if you walk away from it,

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Speaker 2: that means it's healthy. And while there is a dynamic

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Speaker 2: to that, we've unfortunately seen in a lot of wilderness

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Speaker 2: areas and even in some national parks that do not

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Speaker 2: have a lot of active management, the challenges that come

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Speaker 2: with wildfires associated with hotter, longer summers, and fire seasons

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Speaker 2: that are becoming just more and more impactful.

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Speaker 1: I really do want to get into fire obviously, that's

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Speaker 1: a big falls into the management bucket. But it's also

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Speaker 1: this big reactionary thing, scary thing, right, people use a

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Speaker 1: miss homes and health and sometimes lives. But first I

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Speaker 1: want to ask who is doing the management on our

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Speaker 1: national for us and how is it paid for?

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Speaker 2: Okay, let's let's delve into that. I'll try to be

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Speaker 2: as succinct as I can here, So when it comes

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Speaker 2: to management on national forests, it really relates to a

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Speaker 2: variety of entities and individuals. Primarily, you have your federal employees,

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Speaker 2: Usport Service employees that are on the ground doing activities,

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Speaker 2: taking inventory, fighting wildfires, all all all the things prescribe

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Speaker 2: burning everything in between. But given the the and those

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Speaker 2: folks are paid for by a budget appropriated by Congress.

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Speaker 2: If you want to get into the really interesting nuances,

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Speaker 2: the budget is actually passed through the Department of Interior,

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Speaker 2: but it flows through to the USDA to the Forest Service,

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Speaker 2: something that people aren't overly familiar with, But that's because

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Speaker 2: the Force Reserves were originally part of the Department of

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Speaker 2: Interior before being transferred to the Department of Agriculture and

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Speaker 2: made national force. So that's where the primary bulk of

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Speaker 2: the funding comes from. And then I will say beyond

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Speaker 2: the force of its employees, because even with an agency

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Speaker 2: of between twenty and thirty thousand employees that didn't give

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Speaker 2: them point, that's not enough people to cover one hundred

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Speaker 2: and fifty four million acres across the country. So from that,

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Speaker 2: additional work is taken care of or done on behalf

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Speaker 2: of the Forest Service through contracts and agreements by contractors,

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Speaker 2: by nonprofit organizations, and also by volunteers. So there is

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Speaker 2: a massive network of volunteers that engage with the Forest Service,

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Speaker 2: of massive network of contractors who conduct So I'll break

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Speaker 2: those out. So for volunteers, you have folks that are

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Speaker 2: primarily a lot of a lot of volunteers you use

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Speaker 2: for trail work and helping to maintain recreation areas that

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Speaker 2: they love to visit. But we also have a network

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Speaker 2: of volunteers that are in lookout towers, in a variety

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Speaker 2: of other projects. So it's a hole just about anything

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Speaker 2: you can imagine happening on a national forest that is

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Speaker 2: that is not inherently governmental, or to an extent, some

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Speaker 2: of it is is done through volunteers. Somewhat similar with

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Speaker 2: contractors or specific types of projects we have have those dynamics.

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Speaker 2: You have those dynamics as well. We have contractors that

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Speaker 2: help by wildfires, contractors who helped do some of that hazards, fuels,

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Speaker 2: thinning and reduction of material out in the forest. You

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Speaker 2: also have contractors who do you know, stream projects, et cetera,

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Speaker 2: et cetera. So you really have an interesting mix of

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Speaker 2: folks that are actively engaging at any given time on

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Speaker 2: for service land. But at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: you need that whole backbone, backbone of the Forest Service,

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Speaker 2: be it on the ground employees or folks, and the

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Speaker 2: administration agreements contracting side to make all that work happen.

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Speaker 2: So it is a variety of folks, but all of

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Speaker 2: that comes through primarily through funding through Congress. But then

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Speaker 2: there's there's some organizations like the National Forest Foundation, who

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Speaker 2: has private investment that supports them engaging in various projects

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Speaker 2: on National Force lands as well.

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Speaker 1: So when we talk about any given project, I guess

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Speaker 1: it would be important. Two, I'd like to know how

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Speaker 1: a timber sale works.

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Speaker 2: At which point or do you want me to go

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Speaker 2: through the well more of the details that you really

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Speaker 2: want to know.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious to know as it relates to this. You know,

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Speaker 1: fairly recent executive order. There's the sky is falling crowd,

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Speaker 1: and then there's a slightly more pragmatic crowd. I feel

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Speaker 1: like I fall, Uh, this may come as a shock

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Speaker 1: to my listeners, but I fall in the concerned but

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Speaker 1: more pragmatic crowd. Absolutely based on this is a free market.

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Speaker 1: We're only going to produce so much. We know, you know,

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Speaker 1: timber sales happen all the time. Sometimes they don't even

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Speaker 1: get bit on because the folks who are out there

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Speaker 1: doing the work go, boy, it's not worth my equipment

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Speaker 1: or the diesel fuel. So I'd like, I think it'd

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Speaker 1: just be great because I'm not an expert to just

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Speaker 1: understand how a timber sale works.

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Speaker 2: Sure, I'll try to be as as concise as I

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Speaker 2: can on this particular topic, because as you can imagine,

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Speaker 2: there's there's plenty of bureaucracy that goes into that whole process.

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Speaker 2: So so let's just kind of start a little bit,

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Speaker 2: a little bit early in the process before we get

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Speaker 2: to the contract side of it. So so ultimately, most most,

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Speaker 2: not all, I would say, national forests have a rotation

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Speaker 2: and how they look at parts of the national force

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Speaker 2: that fall within a category of being you know, designated

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Speaker 2: for active force management and looking at those areas to

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Speaker 2: come into and say, all right, is this scenario that

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Speaker 2: is in a good place to be analyzed for active

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Speaker 2: forest management right now? If that's the case, then then

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Speaker 2: project starts and they conduct ana analysis. Through that analysis,

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Speaker 2: the determination is made on what type of or what

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Speaker 2: level of a NEPA needs to be done to conduct

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Speaker 2: that analysis, be that a categorical exclusion, meaning that this

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Speaker 2: is something that has been determined is category or excluded

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Speaker 2: from a deeper dive a NEPA because it's been looked

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Speaker 2: at across the net, has been seen as a people

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Speaker 2: mints words, but relatively minimal impact. There's not going to

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Speaker 2: be a significant impact based off of what's being treated

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Speaker 2: and how it's being treated. So in some cases you

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Speaker 2: may have that around fire reduced you know, fire reduction

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Speaker 2: activity or you know, or some other activities. Then you

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Speaker 2: have your environmental assessment, which is, you know, basically you

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Speaker 2: look at a variety in any case, in any case,

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Speaker 2: you're looking at all aspects of that piece of land.

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Speaker 2: So it's not just force management, it's water resources, archaeological resources.

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Speaker 2: If there's range you know, grazing, there's range resources wildlife resources.

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Speaker 2: Everything's looked at EESA. Obviously in Dago Species Act, all

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Speaker 2: those things you're looked at and considered in that analysis

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Speaker 2: to determine where you can have impacts or where you

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Speaker 2: can limit impacts to those resources. And so that that

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Speaker 2: relates to you know what I what is referred to

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Speaker 2: a decision document as a finding of no significant impact,

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Speaker 2: and then you have an environmental impact statement. What's really

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Speaker 2: critical about an environmental impact statement is that oftentimes it's

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Speaker 2: looked at as a as a way for more public involvement.

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Speaker 2: There is more public involvement with environmental impact statement, but

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Speaker 2: in my from my perspective, one of the nuances of

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Speaker 2: an environmental impact statement is it is the lack of

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Speaker 2: a better term, in the last line of defense, it's

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Speaker 2: it's a document that says we know we're going to

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Speaker 2: have significant impacts and we're and we have a responsibility

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Speaker 2: to take this action, and at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: we were required to disclose that we're taking this action.

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Speaker 2: That's an environmental impact statement. Oftentimes it is looked at

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Speaker 2: as a means of like, oh, well, you should do

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Speaker 2: any I S because I can't believe you're going to

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Speaker 2: do this thing, and that's not really what it's for.

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Speaker 2: And I oftentimes in my federal career reminded people and

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Speaker 2: environmental impacts is what they put open pit minds in

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Speaker 2: and dams in, like that's an eis not cutting down

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Speaker 2: trees that are going to grow. But again different opinions

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Speaker 2: on how impactful that is for some folks. So I

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Speaker 2: just wanted to kind of give that background on the

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Speaker 2: three levels of NEPA that have to be One has

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Speaker 2: to be done no matter what action is being taken

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Speaker 2: on a federal and one has to be done. So

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Speaker 2: then you conduct your analysis, you put together the project

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Speaker 2: and say this is what we want to do. You

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Speaker 2: develop evaluation and how you want to go about actually

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Speaker 2: doing the management activities. So that's actually called the civil

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Speaker 2: cultural prescription. So if we can share the definition SFS

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Speaker 2: for civil culture, but it's the keywords or the veryer

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Speaker 2: we're getting the art and science of managing forces. It's

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Speaker 2: an applied ecology is one of the easier ways to

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Speaker 2: describe it. So understanding how a system works and then

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Speaker 2: saying we want to do this thing here for these

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Speaker 2: you know, very big benefits. So then the question especially

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Speaker 2: I think like you said, there's some timber sales that

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Speaker 2: go with no bids and various things. That has to

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Speaker 2: do with the civil culture prescription. Can we actually implement

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Speaker 2: what we want to do on the landscape. Is it

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Speaker 2: financially feasible? And so what's considered a traditional timber sale

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Speaker 2: contract is one where there are bidders for that contract

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Speaker 2: to do that work on behalf of the forest service,

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Speaker 2: and that bidder that company then has rights to the

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Speaker 2: wood and they're able to sell it. What has come about,

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Speaker 2: you know, several years ago was also stewardship contracting, which

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Speaker 2: that gave the space for the ability to bid on contracts.

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Speaker 2: But also part of that bidding process is how are

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Speaker 2: you going to do It's referred to as service work,

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Speaker 2: so work that doesn't make money but still needs to

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Speaker 2: be done under traditional timber sale contracts more often than not,

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Speaker 2: what would happen with those is if there's any revenue

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Speaker 2: made off for those timber sale contracts, those go into

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Speaker 2: trust funds that help do that service work on the

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Speaker 2: back end. So those are the variety of factors. So

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Speaker 2: you have to have through your through the forest plant,

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Speaker 2: you have to have a designation of this can be

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Speaker 2: commercially managed. And then you take into a variety of factors,

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Speaker 2: be it Endangered Species Act, Clean Water Act. Sometimes it's

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Speaker 2: the Migratory Birds Act, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: So within that that designation, you're then pairing it down.

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Speaker 2: If you have water, then there's likely wrap airing reserves

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Speaker 2: or buffers you're putting on water bodies. And then so

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Speaker 2: that continues to narrow it down to say, okay, here's

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Speaker 2: here's the window that we have to actually do something.

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Speaker 2: And then you put it up for sale and see

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Speaker 2: if someone is willing to bid on it. So it is,

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Speaker 2: it is not. It is not a job that is

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Speaker 2: for the faint of heart. And and I you know,

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Speaker 2: and I know when I was worked on the Lama

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Speaker 2: National Forest and some of the many forests I worked on,

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Speaker 2: and we conducted an analysis across the entire force and said,

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Speaker 2: out of the you know, just over a million acres

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Speaker 2: of that forest, how much of it could we actually

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Speaker 2: commercially manage? And we put in all those buffers and

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Speaker 2: boundaries and zones around spotted owl habitat and riparian reserves

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Speaker 2: for rivers, and out of that over a million acres

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Speaker 2: it was twelve to fourteen percent. So I say all

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Speaker 2: that to capture this conversation of the new executive orders

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Speaker 2: and in the ability to increase that the sale of

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Speaker 2: timberoff commercial timber off with federal lands, especially on the

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Speaker 2: for service lands. It simply put, it is not easy,

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Speaker 2: and so folks are really and the employees are really

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Speaker 2: thoughtful about the impacts beyond getting for lack of returns,

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Speaker 2: like people like to say, getting the cut out. There's

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Speaker 2: a lot of concern for all the other resources involved,

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Speaker 2: as those are all teams people work with and so

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Speaker 2: so at the end of the day, if you think

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Speaker 2: about that where folks are really concerned, I wouldn't be

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Speaker 2: surprised if you looked across the country and it was

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Speaker 2: still within that ten to sixteen percent, no more than

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Speaker 2: twenty percent that is actually available to potentially go out

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Speaker 2: and harvest commercially.

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Speaker 1: And that that would that within that ten to sixteen percent.

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Speaker 1: Also that is stuff that has grown to a commercially

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Speaker 1: viable for dimensional lumber size, right.

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Speaker 2: So it was I mean the majority of its dimensional lumber,

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Speaker 2: some of it goes to a variety of other products

377
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Speaker 2: that go to make you know, wood pellets that are

378
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Speaker 2: bet are for heating or for other activities, and then

379
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Speaker 2: you have what's referred to as chip and saw. So

380
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Speaker 2: like there's a variety of forest products that they can

381
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Speaker 2: go to that you can get out of different size

382
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Speaker 2: as of material. But one of the areas that has

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Speaker 2: been a struggle is actually to come up with strong

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Speaker 2: commercial economies for the smaller diameter material that you would

385
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Speaker 2: clear out for hazards fuels. That's the big.

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Speaker 1: Challenge, and that's you know, certainly the conversation that I

387
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Speaker 1: am most familiar with here in Montana. I know Montana

388
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Speaker 1: does not represent the entire timber cutting world, but it's Yes,

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Speaker 1: you can go in and remove slash manage in a

390
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Speaker 1: way to reduce the potential for catastrophic wildfire. Yes, but

391
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Speaker 1: you're in a position to where you have to pay

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Speaker 1: somebody to go in.

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Speaker 2: There and do it more often than not.

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Speaker 3: So.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, that's the conversation I grew up with

396
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Speaker 1: not being in the industry at all. But is that

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Speaker 1: the case, Like when we talk about these secondary or

398
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Speaker 1: tertiary markets, my understanding is they're just not available a

399
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Speaker 1: lot of places.

400
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Speaker 2: Not at scale, not at scale, and that that becomes

401
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Speaker 2: you know, there's there's constantly research going on around biochar,

402
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 2: around other like soil, you know, improvement products that you

403
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 2: can do. But but you know, as technology improves, you know,

404
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 2: everyone a lot of folks really help hopeful about where

405
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Speaker 2: that will lead us to. But but it just hasn't

406
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Speaker 2: been something that has that has been large scale, commercially

407
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Speaker 2: viable as as a as a sector at this point,

408
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Speaker 2: which is part of the challenge. That's that's the big nuance.

409
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Speaker 2: And you know, the reality is is things grow in

410
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Speaker 2: a forest because things grow in a forest. It sounds

411
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Speaker 2: overly simplified, but that's that's it. It's going to grow.

412
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Speaker 2: So even if you were to just go in and

413
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Speaker 2: do that that understory treatment, you eventually have to take

414
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 2: out some of the larger trees simply because that's going

415
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Speaker 2: to close the canopy at the top of the forest.

416
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Speaker 2: And if you have a wind wind blown fire, it

417
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 2: can start on the canopies and just run through that

418
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 2: mat of canopy. So so that concern is still there.

419
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 2: There just needs to be spacing amongst the trees. So

420
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Speaker 2: so yeah, it is. It is one of those dynamics

421
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Speaker 2: of how do we find because right now the solution

422
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 2: is to go out and cut slash pilot and burn

423
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:25,879
Speaker 2: it in the snow, which which can still you're blipping

424
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 2: it by when you have burn windows, when you have

425
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 2: smoke clearance, depending on where you're in the country. So

426
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Speaker 2: so yeah, there is a variety of challenges there, and

427
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Speaker 2: like I mentioned that, the challenges in many cases finding

428
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Speaker 2: the funding to pay for someone to do that, and

429
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Speaker 2: some of those timber sales that you mentioned that go

430
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Speaker 2: no bid may have removing some of that with the

431
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Speaker 2: smaller material with the larger material and it just doesn't

432
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Speaker 2: pencil out, and that's why they go no bid. But

433
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Speaker 2: there's a whole host of factors of why sales go

434
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Speaker 2: no bid. It can be the cost of diesel and

435
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,439
Speaker 2: how far someone has to try, you know, pull material

436
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,360
Speaker 2: one way or the other, to be the quality of roads,

437
00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 2: a lot of things.

438
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 1: So yeah, and yeah, it's your scope of where you've worked.

439
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: We overlapped a little bit in some of that Oregon

440
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: and then extreme western Idaho country where you can still

441
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:14,120
Speaker 1: see this attempt I think it was in the sixties

442
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:22,159
Speaker 1: or seventies to it's really wild like back country areas

443
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 1: that were terraced to create National forest timber farms essentially,

444
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 1: and it's really wild that at that time I guess

445
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: we had the money and the manpower to go in

446
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 1: there and do something like that.

447
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,400
Speaker 2: Well yeah, I mean the reality of it was obviously

448
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,959
Speaker 2: back then manpower and machine costs and material costs were

449
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 2: significantly less than they are now, and so that in

450
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 2: and of itself was a dynamic. But it was also

451
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 2: the value material. You know, that's when you were out

452
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 2: these you know, large trees that were probably pretty old

453
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 2: and they're very high quality wood, so you can use

454
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 2: them for a whole host of things from building materials

455
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:15,120
Speaker 2: to furniture to even peeling them for you know, fancy blackwood,

456
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 2: but most of them, but more unlikely it was used

457
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 2: like you have these long you have these tall, large

458
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 2: diameter trees that you can make you know, a four

459
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 2: by four and eight by eight out of or ten

460
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 2: by ten out of a slab, you know, out of

461
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 2: a tree trunk. So so those are those are pretty

462
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,479
Speaker 2: significant to be able to do that, where now we're

463
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 2: doing that with mass timber and putting together pieces of

464
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 2: wood with special glues and materials to recreate what was

465
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 2: natural back then. But it takes hundreds of years to

466
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 2: grow those, so you're just not going to go out

467
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 2: and replenish that.

468
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 1: So the.

469
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 2: Approach became shorter rotations for different quality materials and not

470
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 2: trying to make those types of materials from one single

471
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 2: tree like you could do once upon a time.

472
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, my building experience, I've I've dealt with a heck

473
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: of a lot more glue lambs than I have a

474
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: single pieces of timber.

475
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 2: Right, yep, yeah, absolutely so, Yeah, it was just it

476
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 2: was just that much more valuable.

477
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's let's jump into the big scary fire subject. Yes,

478
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: we have. It's it's it's hard to pin down. It's

479
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: it's like a mosaic burn. Like in some parts of

480
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: the country. People just know that you put fire on

481
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: the landscape. That's how we manage things. It's going to

482
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: be smoky certain times a year. Other parts of the US,

483
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: anytime there's smoke, it something very bad has got to

484
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 1: be happening. Yeah, and you know, I'll tell you from

485
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: uh hunter and oftentimes angler perspective, we love seeing.

486
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 2: Fires, imagine, so yep, so uh serious night lines and

487
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 2: you've got fresh forage, so two very good things.

488
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: Yep, yep, exactly, and morel mushrooms popping up everywhere.

489
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 2: The list goes on and on, huckleberries, all the great

490
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 2: things out there.

491
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly, everybody wants to be there. So and

492
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 1: right now it looks like we got some fire season

493
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 1: kicking off in the Carolinas. That sound some things that

494
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 1: I'm reading or sound a little scary. But are we

495
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: seeing is this executive order going to tie into increase

496
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: subs or prescribed burns? Are we seeing anything positive on

497
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: that side of things? And then we got to ask

498
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 1: also what happens with the you know, the reduction in

499
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: workforce that we're seeing. We you know, we have dedicated

500
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: fire personnel, but we have a lot of personnel out

501
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: there that don't tell anybody, but they crossed their fingers

502
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 1: that they're going to be put on a fire after

503
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks of running trail crew or whatever

504
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: they're doing. So is that a concern that that's being

505
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: talked about in society of American foresters?

506
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 2: Absolutely? I I you know, I'm hopeful around the prescribed

507
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 2: fire component of the Executive order analysis that that the

508
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 2: four Service has been charged to do. And and I

509
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 2: think that it is one of those things that's just

510
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 2: going to be really critical given the state of what

511
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 2: we've been facing the last ten plus years at this point,

512
00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 2: in regards to what that that Management Act, what the

513
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 2: as management activities look like, and how they incorporate opportunities

514
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 2: to do some of that HAZARDUS fuels treatment and or

515
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 2: prescribe burning on the landscape, because yeah, it can get

516
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 2: really scary out there. A year doesn't go by that

517
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 2: I don't talk to, you know, twenty thirty some odd

518
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 2: plus year firefighting wildland firefighting veteran who says, I haven't

519
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 2: seen anything like this before. So this is these are

520
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 2: just different contention conditions that we have to be really

521
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 2: thoughtful of and respectful of. Your follow up question in

522
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 2: regards to how does this all play out, if you know,

523
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 2: with the reduction enforce scenario that's playing out right now.

524
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 2: To be honest, it can be really concerning because what

525
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 2: has what has been the framework of this Like you

526
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 2: said there, yes, there are wildland firefighters who are designated

527
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 2: as such and you know, compensated as such and have

528
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 2: their own hirement system and all those lovely things, But

529
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 2: there is a whole host of other folks that you're

530
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 2: you're foresters, wildlife biologists, fisheries, biologists, all those folks you know,

531
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 2: arrange specialists who are involved in not only fighting wildland

532
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 2: fires but also supporting prescribe burning, their ability to go

533
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 2: out and because again for all those specialists out there,

534
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 2: these are all benefits to their resources. You know, even

535
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 2: I would say recreational recreation managers, same thing. They're out

536
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 2: there as well. Because let's say if you if you

537
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 2: did have a scenario where you wanted to you know,

538
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 2: you had a really elaborate boat ramp, or you had

539
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 2: a bunch of tent pads out in the in the

540
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 2: woods that you want to be able like, it's going

541
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 2: to take a lot of people to go out and

542
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 2: prescribe burn it. So it's not not necessarily quick, bro Crow,

543
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 2: but it's like, I'm going to go help you and

544
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 2: show investment and support of what you're trying to do

545
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 2: on the landscape in hopes that this really challenging project

546
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 2: you're going to really help you with and understanding that

547
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 2: it takes just about everybody to do that. Not to

548
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 2: mention the people who communicate, like you mentioned some parts

549
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 2: of the country, they're like, oh, they're smoking the air.

550
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:12,800
Speaker 2: That means that you know, that's going to be a

551
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 2: good spot to go hunting next year. And there's other

552
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 2: people who see smoke in the air and what they

553
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 2: know are catastrophic fires that that potentially take lives and

554
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 2: buildings and everything else. And so being able to support

555
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,720
Speaker 2: and staff that is really intertwined within the Forest Service

556
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 2: and i'd say within Bureau of Land Management and National

557
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 2: Park Service and others uespecial and wildlife when they have

558
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 2: wildlife refuges. So it is a it's a complicated dynamic

559
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 2: to really be considerate of and what that looks like

560
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 2: and so a reduction in force for everyone else. But

561
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 2: while they're firefighting can really be a challenge and can

562
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 2: be you know, something that is that is unforeseen. I

563
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 2: think what will happen with that is is there will

564
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 2: have to be some level or some opportunity for there

565
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 2: to someone to pick up a slack. And so I

566
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 2: think that's where things get really interesting in nuanced You know,

567
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 2: there there are already a significant number of wildline firefighting

568
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 2: contract crews that are out there, contract engines that are

569
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 2: out there, water tenders, et cetera, et cetera. You don't

570
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 2: have many water tenders within the force. Those are all

571
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:29,800
Speaker 2: provided by contractors. So so this reduction force will result

572
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:31,760
Speaker 2: in like it's it's it's going to be a shifting

573
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 2: of the workforce, and hopefully that shift happens because a

574
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 2: lot of folks work for the Forest Service, not just

575
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,320
Speaker 2: for wildland firefighting or for prescribed burning. They work for

576
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 2: it because they believe in the mission. And so if

577
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 2: folks are going to work for contractors, I hope they

578
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 2: have that same passion and value for the outdoors because

579
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 2: that that, I think is where you run into a

580
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 2: potential gap there. But but trying to figure out how

581
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 2: to meet that need. As you've seen in many cases,

582
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 2: a lot of state forestry agencies don't have the bandwidth

583
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 2: to manage fires on federal lands and on state lands.

584
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 2: So I mean you have a whole set of factors

585
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,240
Speaker 2: in a system that can be really strained really quickly.

586
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 2: If you have multiple parts of the country with significant

587
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 2: fire events going on at the same time. You know,

588
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 2: there's reason why there are agreements with a variety of

589
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 2: countries to possibly even send resources from We've had resources

590
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 2: from Canada, We've had resources I believe even from Africa,

591
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 2: from Australia in the past, from New Zealand, who've come

592
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 2: and helped on major fire events where there's literally just

593
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 2: no one else that you can pull in to help.

594
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 2: So so I think that this will this will definitely

595
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 2: put us in a place to potentially exaggerate that, and

596
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 2: we have to be really mindful about where's that where

597
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:54,359
Speaker 2: those folks are going to go so they can still

598
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 2: support the cause because they will be needed.

599
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, the you know, I had kind of let my

600
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 1: bias show through on the the federal worker side of

601
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: things because I've been fortunate enough to be around folks

602
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: who they might be grumpy, they like like to kind

603
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: of bitch and moan about things like we all do,

604
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,879
Speaker 1: but at the end of the day, they're like here

605
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 1: to do a job for you, Like I'm serving the

606
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 1: American people. And you know, I think that some of

607
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 1: this condemnation comes from people who have never had the

608
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,720
Speaker 1: great experience to do a terrible job with great people

609
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 1: for a good purpose. So as we see the system

610
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 1: right now and this I'd like to kind of get

611
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:52,240
Speaker 1: an idea the scope too, is like our nationwide forest

612
00:37:52,400 --> 00:38:00,399
Speaker 1: management has has changed to some some degree, Like can

613
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: you give us like a snapshot of like where were

614
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 1: we what was the idea during that everybody's coming home

615
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: from World War two moment, we're going to harvest more timber.

616
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 1: And then in the in the seventies there was kind

617
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 1: of like a little bit more of a recreational spin

618
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 1: to things, or if timber projects punch new roads and

619
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: it provides more opportunity to get out into the forest

620
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 1: and kind of where are we now and where might

621
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: we be heading as far as forest management. Well, we

622
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 1: only have so much time. I got to get it

623
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 1: all out here, Terry.

624
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 2: Oh Man. See I just mentioned cal and I don't

625
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 2: know what I've done to you. No, No, again, a

626
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,879
Speaker 2: really thoughtful and insightful question. I think so. So back

627
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 2: when the opportunity or the idea and the really the

628
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 2: way that that I've looked at it and throughout my

629
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 2: career is the ask that was of public plans, Like

630
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 2: you said, it's a bunch of people who believe in

631
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 2: doing this for other folks, this this service mindset, and

632
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 2: so when the ask of the public was we need

633
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 2: wood for homes here in the US, then that's what

634
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 2: the Forest Service did. And the way to most efficiently

635
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 2: harvest wood and a way that that meets that meat

636
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:22,839
Speaker 2: as quickly as possible is the way that it's done

637
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 2: on industrial lands. So in many cases those were clear

638
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 2: cut harvests where you take pretty much everything or the

639
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 2: vast majority of what's commercially viable, and you you put

640
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 2: it on a rotation and that's how you go through

641
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 2: the forest and manage it is, you know, growing to maturity,

642
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 2: some some thinning in between, and you're resetting the whole

643
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,240
Speaker 2: thing every so many years to be able to produce

644
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:52,319
Speaker 2: the wood that was needed for homes and for other resources.

645
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 2: So once you hit the sixties and seventies with a

646
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 2: lot of those my and the laws came into place,

647
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 2: there were still there was still quite a bit of that.

648
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 2: There was some some other methodologies used. Probably you know,

649
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 2: one of the more significant pieces was the cuts were

650
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 2: limited and how big they could be, so that you

651
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 2: weren't having massive swaths or what what appeared to be

652
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 2: scars on the landscape. And that was from a visual perspective,

653
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 2: but it's also from a managing water runoff and all

654
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 2: those types of things and creating some other challenges on

655
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 2: the landscape to be mindful of. So you had that

656
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 2: piece that was still a little bit there, but then

657
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 2: you also got into this this idea of commercial harvest

658
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 2: and a variety of what we call thinnings to meet

659
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 2: you know, not only national targets, but targets I were

660
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 2: associated with providing material to to the American people. And

661
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,399
Speaker 2: so so you would go out there and you would

662
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 2: you would reduce the density of a forest. You would

663
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 2: cut some tree, but you would leave quite a few. Now,

664
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 2: the reason that I mentioned, you know, the somewhat the

665
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 2: industrial model, is that you have to realize it's also

666
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 2: like if you're taken basically everything, you're not going to

667
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,359
Speaker 2: beat up your equipment. It's pretty straightforward. There's no guessing game.

668
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 2: Some of these other models. Obviously you got into what

669
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 2: was you know, these thinnings. You're marking a lot of trees.

670
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 2: So now you're adding a lot of resources to to

671
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 2: go out and mark the trees that would be harvested

672
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,359
Speaker 2: versus like a market a boundary and you go take

673
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 2: everything out in the boundary type of thing. And so

674
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,919
Speaker 2: that that dynamic, you know, definitely persistent for a while

675
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 2: because it was it was about yes, this is designated

676
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 2: for commercial harvest, but it was also it's commercial harvest

677
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 2: within the context of endangered species, water quality, and a

678
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:52,320
Speaker 2: variety of other regulations that exist, and so as that

679
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 2: continued to evolve, you start to look at different opportunities

680
00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 2: for efficiencies. Not all forests use this methodology, but I

681
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 2: know a few that I've worked on using methodology that

682
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 2: it's either designation by description or designation by prescription, which

683
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 2: is this dynamic of saying, Okay, this is the biggest tree,

684
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 2: and we're going to thin out everything from around the

685
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,320
Speaker 2: biggest tree to continue to support and release it so

686
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 2: it has more resources to grow in between this biggest tree.

687
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,800
Speaker 2: And then you set a distance and it's you know,

688
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 2: twenty thirty feet to the next biggest tree, so everything

689
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 2: between that thirty foot swath gets cut. That's a commercial

690
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 2: value you but instead of marking that, you make that

691
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 2: designation to a purchaser. So there's there's been evolutions and

692
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 2: trying to find efficiency with fewer employees on how do

693
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 2: you manage these large chunks of land given some of

694
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 2: the dynamics that are put in front of you on

695
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 2: the amount of ground you're trying to cover. So that

696
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 2: continues to I think, continues to evolve as we look

697
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:58,840
Speaker 2: at what's going on within the country and trying to

698
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 2: account for, you know, all the aspects of what it

699
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 2: means to serve the public. You know that that multiple

700
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 2: use mission of the Forest Service. You're trying to account

701
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 2: for everything recreation interests, and recreation includes a lot of

702
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 2: things people think, oh well, trails and hunting or whatever

703
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 2: it might be. But it's also there are visual requirements

704
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 2: in quite a few places if you have scenic trails

705
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 2: or scenic highways or scenic rivers. So so it's really

706
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 2: being thoughtful about all those different components and factors. So

707
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,800
Speaker 2: what does that look like going into the future. I

708
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 2: think that's really fascinating because I think even in the

709
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 2: space of executive orders and various policies, a lot of

710
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 2: what's going to continue to drive force management is, you know,

711
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,320
Speaker 2: the changing climate that we see. It will be the

712
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:53,799
Speaker 2: the stresses that are put on species that have been

713
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:59,800
Speaker 2: in place for hundreds, if not thousands of years, and

714
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 2: the environmental factors may not necessarily sustain them. So, so

715
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:06,839
Speaker 2: are we going to see you know, migration. There's there's

716
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 2: folks in forestry and civil culture who talk about as

717
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:14,439
Speaker 2: system migration. Do we start planting trees from you know, hotter,

718
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 2: drier places in places that are more moderate temperatures, because

719
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:21,800
Speaker 2: those temperatures are getting hotter and drier. What species that

720
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 2: are that are you know, from relatively moist climates. Do

721
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 2: we have to put up higher in elevation because that's

722
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:28,319
Speaker 2: where they're going to have the moisture that they need

723
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 2: to grow. So so I think those are going to

724
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 2: be a lot of the major factors that that will

725
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 2: definitely impact how we manage. But but I think, you know,

726
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 2: in addition to that, this whole question and concept of

727
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:46,399
Speaker 2: wildland fire and all the factors that that that put

728
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,879
Speaker 2: force in a in a place that they are more

729
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 2: susceptible to catching on fire and sustaining large fires and

730
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 2: impactful fires are are going to be really really significant.

731
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 2: They already are. I think they're going to continue to

732
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 2: be more significant. I think we potentially could see places

733
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 2: being dry that they're rarely dry and what that means.

734
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 2: I've worked in those places. Working in western Oregon. They're like, oh,

735
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 2: it never burns. And I started there and there was

736
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 2: a ten thousand acre fire. So I'm like, well, it

737
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 2: looks like we're in the cycle. You know, that five

738
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:18,759
Speaker 2: hundred year cycle apparently is coming around pretty soon. So

739
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:24,360
Speaker 2: I think we could just be seeing, you know, the

740
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:26,399
Speaker 2: front end what I would I would love to say

741
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 2: it's the middle or the end, but I don't know.

742
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 2: From the way things look. We are at the front

743
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 2: end as a country of looking at what is susceptible

744
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:38,280
Speaker 2: to fire, the insect and disease, you know, the pathogens,

745
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:40,919
Speaker 2: the insects that come in and kill you know, large

746
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:46,879
Speaker 2: scales of trees simply because they are stressed because they're

747
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 2: growing and very very densely growing forests, or it's just

748
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:53,359
Speaker 2: hotter for longer, insects that aren't dying in the winter

749
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 2: because it's not getting cold enough. We have to continue

750
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 2: to contest with these things as we strategize how to

751
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:02,280
Speaker 2: manage our force. What's going to produce a healthy force?

752
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 2: What is the composition of species in that healthy forest?

753
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 2: Are those species going to be ones that we can

754
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 2: actually have some opportunity to make U some commercial revenue

755
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 2: for to do that service work that there's currently not

756
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 2: a market for developing those new markets. Like so there's

757
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 2: there's so many facets of being really mindful of what

758
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 2: the future holds, and it's going to take some really

759
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 2: big and thoughtful conversations and some likely some insignificant investment.

760
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 2: But what that means on the federal side of things

761
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 2: is also being mindful of what does it take businesses

762
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 2: to invest. You know, that's been a big question as

763
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:42,800
Speaker 2: you've seen mill closures all over the country. It's because

764
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:48,919
Speaker 2: they can't really feel like they have a solid source

765
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 2: of wood to keep the doors open. So if that's

766
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,879
Speaker 2: the case, then we're we're again we're losing a key

767
00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 2: resource in that whole dynamic of treating national force because

768
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:02,279
Speaker 2: we just don't even have the infrastructure to do it

769
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 2: and close enough proximity to make it viable. So we

770
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:08,279
Speaker 2: just have a lot of things to really step back,

771
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:12,800
Speaker 2: look at and and be really thoughtful about our approach

772
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 2: going forward, because we we have we've we've had plenty

773
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 2: of growing issues over the past several years. And and

774
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 2: while it's great that we have an executive order that

775
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 2: says we're going to move forward and try to be

776
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:31,240
Speaker 2: more of an accelerated pace of engaging these these lands

777
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 2: and how much you know, we harvest off of them,

778
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,320
Speaker 2: we still have to have somewhere forward to go. So

779
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,720
Speaker 2: so there's there's a lot to be really really taughtful

780
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 2: of right now to to try to move forward and

781
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:43,759
Speaker 2: move us to a place of having for us that

782
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 2: can not necessarily remove the chance of a wildfire, but

783
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 2: give give professionals the opportunity to get to that wildfire

784
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 2: as quick as possible so it doesn't turn into something

785
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 2: significantly impactful to communities and to other resources.

786
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 1: And the other thing that's coming through here too is

787
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 1: in order to have something to cut for tomorrow, you

788
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:12,320
Speaker 1: got to save it today also. So yeah, we have

789
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 1: a lot of timber out there. There's just not ready

790
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 1: to be cut.

791
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:19,719
Speaker 2: In some places. Some places I would say, I know

792
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 2: there's a lot of data in the southeast that they

793
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 2: are actively lowering. I think it's almost two to three times,

794
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 2: if not more volume in trees every year than it's

795
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 2: being cut. So so areas with long growing seasons, you

796
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 2: know Montana probably like a lot of the rocky mountain

797
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 2: part of the country. Maybe not those those those trees

798
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 2: don't grow quite as fast, but definitely I would say

799
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 2: along the coast of the country you have you have

800
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,719
Speaker 2: situations where there there very well could be opportunity for

801
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:54,239
Speaker 2: a variety of benefits to go out and be more

802
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 2: active in your management.

803
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 1: And is the spot at owl Host.

804
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:06,759
Speaker 2: Well I'm not by no means a wild life biologists.

805
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 2: I will I will leave that too to the professionals

806
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:15,759
Speaker 2: to speak on that. But uh, you know, we we

807
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:17,239
Speaker 2: will do the best that we can. I think that

808
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 2: we've done that with every species on the endiged species list,

809
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 2: and some have been downgraded and some have been taken

810
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:27,360
Speaker 2: off the list. So I know we'll we'll continue to

811
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 2: try as a as a country of professionals too, you know,

812
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 2: provide for that the unique roles that spoted I was

813
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 2: playing the ecosystem.

814
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 1: I'm gonna make statement here, and you tell me if

815
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 1: if if I'm way off topic, if folks in my

816
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: neck of the woods in Montana want to see more

817
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:52,880
Speaker 1: proactive forest management, one of the suggestions I would make

818
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:55,239
Speaker 1: is to go back to the mindset of if you

819
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 1: want a cabin in the woods, just make it a

820
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 1: simple cabin that you not too worried about it getting

821
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 1: burned down, instead of making it a little mansion in

822
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 1: the woods. But that even you get in a real

823
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 1: uproar about any plume of smoke that you see. What

824
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 1: do you think about Terry Well?

825
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 2: I think I have both some personal and professional thoughts

826
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 2: on that one. But but I would I would counter

827
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 2: your your your statement with the fact that I think

828
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 2: there's a lot of folks that get pretty worked up

829
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 2: even about their little simple cabin in the woods, wood

830
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,920
Speaker 2: cabin in the woods. So so yeah, I think it's

831
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 2: uh what I would why I would suggest when it

832
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 2: comes to that for anybody, no matter what level of

833
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:44,239
Speaker 2: investment they have in their their woodland dwelling, people will

834
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 2: go that route that they do their best to stay informed.

835
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:49,720
Speaker 2: That like, if you're going to be out there, be educated,

836
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 2: understand what you have, Understand what's around you, let that

837
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 2: inform your decisions. Be engaged with the local officials who

838
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 2: are responsible for you know, especially in firefighting, and and

839
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 2: learn what you can do to help take care of

840
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:08,399
Speaker 2: your space, and and also put you in a place

841
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 2: to be successful is there if there is a wildfire,

842
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 2: and more importantly, put put yourself in a place where

843
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:15,880
Speaker 2: those professionals can can be as safe as they can

844
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,360
Speaker 2: for themselves and their families if there's a wildfire. So

845
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 2: I've been in those situations. Triage is real. And if

846
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 2: there's a home out in the woods that has, you know,

847
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:29,920
Speaker 2: an overgrown driveway and it's a one way in one

848
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:33,240
Speaker 2: way out a lot of times, depending on the scenario

849
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 2: and the situation and the available resources, folks aren't going

850
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:38,320
Speaker 2: to go in and try to save it because it

851
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:41,879
Speaker 2: could very well cost them their lives. So there's there's

852
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:44,479
Speaker 2: a lot to think about this. There's there's that level

853
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 2: of your own responsibility and personal accountability that comes with

854
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 2: being out in the woods, and sometimes people lose track

855
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 2: of that.

856
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:57,719
Speaker 1: Jordan, you were thinking on a couple of things. Do

857
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:00,720
Speaker 1: you want to jump in here with anything?

858
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 3: No, I just I hear a lot this statement made

859
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:10,840
Speaker 3: by people who would like to see federal federal lands

860
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:16,799
Speaker 3: transferred to state management, that the federal government is doing

861
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 3: a terrible job and the states would do a much

862
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 3: better job. Is there is there any truth to that?

863
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:26,839
Speaker 3: Is it partly true? What's your what's your reaction when

864
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 3: when you hear people make that claim.

865
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 2: I have heard that claim before, And what I would

866
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 2: say to to claims like that is different missions, different mandates.

867
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 2: So so I not only say that to state lands,

868
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 2: I also say that to private lands lands that are

869
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 2: better under land trusts. It's it's understanding the mission of

870
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 2: of those in the mandates associated with those land bases.

871
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:59,240
Speaker 2: What you will do on private industrial land is definitely

872
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 2: what you're doing on a prime private land for a

873
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 2: small landowner. You know, if Jordan, you have ten twenty

874
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 2: fifty acres to yourself, you're going to approach that differently

875
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 2: than someone who's actively managing something just for commercial benefit.

876
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 2: So that's the core of my response to the idea

877
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 2: of transferring federal lands to state lands. I think the

878
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 2: other piece of it with that different mission and mandate,

879
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:32,799
Speaker 2: you know, the big question with that would be are

880
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 2: you going to remove all of the all the regulations

881
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 2: associated with federal land, And I seriously doubt that would

882
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 2: be the case. What people may be associating with that

883
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 2: that transition of federal lands to state lands is, you know,

884
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 2: the assumption that state lands do not have to go

885
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:56,319
Speaker 2: through the level of NEPA analysis that federal lands too.

886
00:53:57,440 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 2: But they still have to go through an analysis, they

887
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:01,320
Speaker 2: still have to write management and still have public comment,

888
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,400
Speaker 2: they still have public pushback, they still have lawsuits. So

889
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:10,320
Speaker 2: it's the thought can often be when it comes to

890
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 2: our natural resources that there is some quick fix. But

891
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 2: if there were much smarter people than me would have

892
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:24,360
Speaker 2: figured it out many many years ago. The founder of

893
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:28,400
Speaker 2: the Force Service the founder of Society of American Foresters

894
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 2: and the founder of one of the first forestry schools

895
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 2: in the nation at Yale University. If for Pincho, if

896
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 2: you read some of his early writings, the issues are

897
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 2: the same, the conversations in many cases are the same.

898
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:46,000
Speaker 2: And although he spoke to a much more eloquent than

899
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 2: I can, this type of discussion is very similar. And

900
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:53,760
Speaker 2: so the understanding of what it means to hold something

901
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 2: in the public trust that everyone has a right to

902
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:02,320
Speaker 2: is in and of its helf a daunting task, because

903
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:04,839
Speaker 2: I like to say, every time someone is born, every

904
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:10,839
Speaker 2: time someone passes away, the equation changes. Now are there

905
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 2: are there some policy efficiencies out there? Absolutely? Are there

906
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 2: some ways or approach to work a little bit differently. Absolutely,

907
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 2: And those things should be always considered and thought through

908
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 2: and implemented in hopes of moving things forward. But moving

909
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:31,239
Speaker 2: broad scale, you know, the East coast be different from

910
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:34,360
Speaker 2: the West coast, but you're still talking about hundreds of

911
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:36,239
Speaker 2: thousands again, just the for service ALON one hundred and

912
00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:39,759
Speaker 2: ninety four million acres across the country. Moving that into

913
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:45,280
Speaker 2: state land ownership and management would overwhelm a lot of states,

914
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 2: And so not saying that they could not saying that

915
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:52,320
Speaker 2: they may not want to. I can't speaking to have

916
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 2: any any state in that sense. But if it comes

917
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:00,120
Speaker 2: with all the regulations that federal lands currently have, and

918
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:02,440
Speaker 2: I feel like if that were to happen, there will

919
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:04,399
Speaker 2: be a lot of pushes for those regulations to stay

920
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:07,279
Speaker 2: in place. Then it will be just as challenging on

921
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:10,279
Speaker 2: state lands as it is as federal lands. There'll be

922
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 2: just as many expectations. We have enough people who don't

923
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:15,840
Speaker 2: even know where a national forest stops and a National

924
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:19,960
Speaker 2: park starts and which is which. So you just have

925
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:23,719
Speaker 2: a lot to really be considerate of and understanding of.

926
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:25,800
Speaker 2: And like I said, it really gets down to the mission.

927
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:28,960
Speaker 2: I would say, more so than about changing ownership. If

928
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 2: you want to change how the for service manages in

929
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 2: many cases, then you need to change the mission.

930
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:40,360
Speaker 1: Inconvenient, is it not? When we're looking for our quick fixes,

931
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 1: like nature doesn't really fit with quick fixes. Do trees

932
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 1: take time to grow?

933
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:53,280
Speaker 2: Well? You know, in forestry, you you end up finding

934
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:58,520
Speaker 2: yourselves an interesting company. And I've had my fair share

935
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:01,640
Speaker 2: of hanging out with geologists. And when you think that

936
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 2: forests operate on you know, a timescale beyond the average

937
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:08,360
Speaker 2: human life. You don't even want to go down that

938
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 2: path with those folks, so because they're just talking about

939
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:16,120
Speaker 2: you know, thousands of years at a time, if not more.

940
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 2: But that's the thing, you know, nature, there aren't any

941
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 2: quick fixes it. Nature operates on its timescale.

942
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:28,400
Speaker 1: And oftentimes it's just incompatible with what we want or

943
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:31,840
Speaker 1: think should be. Right, Like I've been on this lesser

944
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:35,360
Speaker 1: prairie chicken kick because buddy of mine, Ted Cook is

945
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 1: oh proselytizing on the lesser prairie chicken and doing a

946
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 1: really good job. But that bird that was once in

947
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 1: America and the millions will not nest within six acres

948
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:54,439
Speaker 1: of any vertical structure. Wow, it just did not grow

949
00:57:54,560 --> 00:58:00,720
Speaker 1: up with trees. Yeah, right, and that is just too

950
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:10,880
Speaker 1: inconvenient for us. You know, barren ground caribou, like giant

951
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 1: herds of caribou that have been sensationalized in media forever. Yes,

952
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 1: they just cannot figure out a road where a road

953
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:28,160
Speaker 1: did not exist before. Like you know, it's just inconvenient

954
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:32,000
Speaker 1: and incompatible with the way we think. And so yeah,

955
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:35,040
Speaker 1: you gotta got a tree that needs optimal conditions, and

956
00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:39,160
Speaker 1: under optimal conditions, it's gonna go grow really fast for

957
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:42,920
Speaker 1: a tree, Yeah, which is just not fast.

958
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 2: It's going to grow really slow. It's going to grow

959
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:49,840
Speaker 2: the right way for a tree, exactly the right way

960
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:52,040
Speaker 2: for where it is and what it has to grow with.

961
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:53,960
Speaker 2: That is what a true will always do.

962
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:59,640
Speaker 1: That's awesome, well, Terry. If folks want to learn more

963
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:04,920
Speaker 1: about the Society of American Foresters or maybe follow up

964
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:06,600
Speaker 1: with you, what's the best way to do that?

965
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:10,920
Speaker 2: Sure thing? You can head over to Eforester dot org.

966
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:14,400
Speaker 2: So pretty straightforward to eat in front of Forrester dot

967
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:17,320
Speaker 2: org and come visit our website. You can learn about

968
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 2: all of our great programs, our scholarships and fellowships and

969
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:24,520
Speaker 2: internship opportunities, as well as our grants that we do

970
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:28,920
Speaker 2: with our local chapters. Like I mentioned, we're national association professionals.

971
00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:32,640
Speaker 2: We have members all over the country who are working

972
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:35,520
Speaker 2: in these fields and coming together to do things for

973
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:38,240
Speaker 2: their community and for the forestry and natural resources profession

974
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 2: and so they're always happy to engage and support this

975
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 2: important work. So head over there. There's also a staff page,

976
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:47,240
Speaker 2: and so folks can reach out to me through that

977
00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:50,720
Speaker 2: staff page. But we're here and we're here to support folks.

978
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:52,480
Speaker 2: Like I mentioned, we've been around one hundred and twenty

979
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:54,840
Speaker 2: five years and we look forward to being around a

980
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 2: lot longer so we can continue to help finding solutions

981
00:59:57,440 --> 00:59:58,200
Speaker 2: to these challenges.

982
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:03,440
Speaker 1: Awesome, Well, thank you so much. Oh that was great.

983
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:06,520
Speaker 1: Uh that's all we got for you today. Thank you

984
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:10,840
Speaker 1: so much for listening. Remember to write in to A

985
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 1: s K C.

986
01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:12,240
Speaker 2: A L.

987
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:15,960
Speaker 1: That's Ascal at the meeteater dot com, the fantastic Jordan

988
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 1: Sillers and I will will round up any questions that

989
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:22,720
Speaker 1: you have for Terry Baker, and the Society of American

990
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:25,680
Speaker 1: Foresters will either get him back on to address those

991
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 1: or we can have him answer and then we'll we'll

992
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:34,080
Speaker 1: recite those answers back to you. So thank you so

993
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:37,080
Speaker 1: much for listening, and we'll talk to you again next week.