Speaker 1: Hell I suck with Deben Heart Radio podcast. Hey, we're
Speaker 1: gonna help I suck at dating. I'm Jared Habn. We're
Speaker 1: joined once again by the wonderful, charismatic and uh just
Speaker 1: better in all aspects of life. We have Kaylin and
Speaker 1: we have a Caroline Lonny which I pronounced properly this time.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, hell yeah, I'm getting better. And of course,
Speaker 1: like I said, we have Calin on Everybodo's Klin Miller
Speaker 1: Keys Uh future wife of Dean Anglert. Uh you headline
Speaker 1: starting now? Hell yeah, that's that's it. That's what we
Speaker 1: like to or maybe current wife of Dean Anglert. Truly,
Speaker 1: we still don't know if you guys are married or not.
Speaker 1: But we have a wonderful guest uh joining us very
Speaker 1: shortly from the host of the podcast Lovers and Friends.
Speaker 1: It is intimacy expert Shan Boudram, which is a lot
Speaker 1: of fun to say. She's gonna be joining us rate.
Speaker 1: Actually I think she just hopped on. Shan. You're there,
Speaker 1: I am here, are we're starting. We're just gonna go
Speaker 1: right into it. How are you. I'm doing great. There's
Speaker 1: a box of clothes behind me. I've got to move
Speaker 1: because you know, you can't see what it looks like
Speaker 1: until it's too late. So here we are the worst
Speaker 1: first eate night. It makes you feel any better. I
Speaker 1: threw a bunch of ships in the kitchen so that
Speaker 1: way you guys couldn't see it in the back. So
Speaker 1: I was in the same boat. So well, at least
Speaker 1: you did the thing, Caroline. You threw it. Now mine
Speaker 1: is literally obviously, But Mike, it's a mess in the kitchen.
Speaker 1: You know what, Just to make you feel better, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna show you what I did. Oh God, here we go.
Speaker 1: She's taking us on a tour through her kitchen. There
Speaker 1: it is, yeah, right there, because so just you know,
Speaker 1: to keep it real so you feel okay about your
Speaker 1: box back. You're good to. Caroline is the type of
Speaker 1: person that just sweeps everything under the rug. I like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you gotta hide. I trust me. I do the same thing.
Speaker 1: So Shan, thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. We know that you are an
Speaker 1: intimacy expert and you spent many, many years is discussing
Speaker 1: everything from relationships to sex. Uh. You have millions and
Speaker 1: millions of views on YouTube. You've been on Netflix and
Speaker 1: Hulu ABC. I don't mean to give your whole bio
Speaker 1: just right now, but just tell us a little bit
Speaker 1: about what your passion is in life, why do you
Speaker 1: why you host the podcast Lovers and Friends? Uh, and
Speaker 1: a little bit of what you do. Oh. I think
Speaker 1: you just hit the whole thing in the head. My passion.
Speaker 1: It's always interesting. People are like, who's trying to see
Speaker 1: if we align with your brand? And like, if it's
Speaker 1: about sex, love, relationships and dating, yes, If it's not,
Speaker 1: probably not. So I think I'm pretty simple in that way.
Speaker 1: I just have a passion for connection and a passion
Speaker 1: for intimacy and in general. It was just kind of
Speaker 1: the aha that I had after a really shitty teen
Speaker 1: sex life of why isn't this information more accessible? And
Speaker 1: why is misinformation more accessible, more palatable and consumable than
Speaker 1: actual good information education? So I saw a need for
Speaker 1: someone to bridge the gap between sex selling and sex education.
Speaker 1: And that was back in like two thousand five or something.
Speaker 1: Um that I had that A Haan, I've been rocking
Speaker 1: with that same mission ever since. So what got you
Speaker 1: into it? Because I I love that you're I love
Speaker 1: that you're making sex easier conversation to have because it
Speaker 1: needs to. We're actually talking about last time on the
Speaker 1: podcast about how there is this taboo with a lot
Speaker 1: of different aspects of relationships woman's bodies, sex relationships were
Speaker 1: just nobody knows what the hell they're talking about, and
Speaker 1: they just say things that don't make sense and don't
Speaker 1: ever actually come to fruition. So how did this start
Speaker 1: with you? You You said you had a shy teen relationship.
Speaker 1: That's exactly it. Yeah, on my own best case study
Speaker 1: that essentially I was somebody who was you know, some
Speaker 1: kids are naturally drawn to the piano when they're young.
Speaker 1: I was just naturally drawn to the human body. I
Speaker 1: mean like four or five years old. You know, my
Speaker 1: barbies were naked all the time, and I just like,
Speaker 1: I loved the body and I was very fascinated by connection. Um,
Speaker 1: But unlike the piano, that was not an interest that
Speaker 1: my parents encouraged. So I definitely went through a lot
Speaker 1: of shame and repression around my sexuality, which led me
Speaker 1: as I got older, to finding back doorways of teaching myself.
Speaker 1: So when I turned fourteen or so, um, I knew
Speaker 1: I couldn't go to my parents where I went to
Speaker 1: a Catholic school, I couldn't go there. So to answer
Speaker 1: the questions I had about what is intimacy and what
Speaker 1: is sex? I watched a lot of porn. I read
Speaker 1: a lot of fiction books. I watched TV shows like
Speaker 1: Gossip Girl and n their fiction TV shows, and I thought,
Speaker 1: ah ha, this is how it works, this is what
Speaker 1: I should do. Um, And I essentially threw myself into
Speaker 1: my intimate life with that as my guide post. And
Speaker 1: it took me to several dead ends. And at that point,
Speaker 1: as at the fork in the road of Okay, either
Speaker 1: my parents and my priest and church was right, this
Speaker 1: is a terrible thing that you should just ignore or
Speaker 1: else it's going to lead to pain and suffering, or
Speaker 1: I have had the wrong teachers. And so why don't
Speaker 1: I try myself? So I enrolled in a library and
Speaker 1: I spent an entire summer just reading every book I
Speaker 1: could about sex, from Masked as in Johnson's to the
Speaker 1: Kinsey Institute. And I was like, Wow, there's great information
Speaker 1: here that could have saved me so much heartbreak, so
Speaker 1: much unnecessary trips to the sexual health clinic. UM, if
Speaker 1: I would have had this. However, it's just not sexy.
Speaker 1: You know, sex ed is not sexy. And that's again
Speaker 1: because kind of where I had that aha moment of
Speaker 1: because I actually was enrolled to go in school into
Speaker 1: school for journalism that coming September when I turned nineteen.
Speaker 1: So that was for me of like, this could be
Speaker 1: the thing that I talked about, This could be the
Speaker 1: stories that I share and that I tellum, And that's
Speaker 1: I'm still rocking with that today. It's so incredibly self
Speaker 1: aware of you because you're eighteen years old at this
Speaker 1: point again nineteen eight Like I feel like I'm thirty
Speaker 1: one and just starting to kind of have these conversations
Speaker 1: with myself and I just went through a really atrocious
Speaker 1: breakup and with an abusive boyfriend, and um, it's it's
Speaker 1: so I'm now like re evaluating and looking at everything.
Speaker 1: And so it's so cool to be that young and
Speaker 1: to be like, hey, like this it doesn't work, something's
Speaker 1: not right, and to take that initiative is so impressive
Speaker 1: to me because they're so you were so young when
Speaker 1: you started. Well, congratulations on your breakup. That's really people
Speaker 1: say that. Thank you so much. I want to high
Speaker 1: five about it, because yeah, you don't there's this weird
Speaker 1: shame associated with breakups and it's like I'm unwanted and
Speaker 1: I was like, no, this is great, and so thank you.
Speaker 1: Not enough people say that because it is a let's
Speaker 1: congratulate high five about it, because well, I actually my
Speaker 1: episode of my podcast this week, which we're charting at
Speaker 1: number one O nine this week because it's been a
Speaker 1: really great one, and it's by Cammy Crawford, and it's
Speaker 1: called um Breakups Are Fun. And Cammy just went through
Speaker 1: a breakup. She's the host of Catfish right now alongside
Speaker 1: the Girl Yes and the caracting girl Yeah. And she
Speaker 1: was just sententially talking about how her breakup UM she's
Speaker 1: hoping becomes a breakthrough, and I was just sharing the
Speaker 1: science behind how this can be one of the most
Speaker 1: incredible catalyst and people's lives now. A lot of people
Speaker 1: there's kind of just like thought process out there that
Speaker 1: you have to go through the bad to learn, and
Speaker 1: I built my career off the premise that you don't
Speaker 1: have to do that. But the truth is, yeah, Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: the reason I got into this space is because of
Speaker 1: so many negative experiences and getting to that place of
Speaker 1: rock bottom of like I have one of two choices
Speaker 1: either I stop all together and quick because it's so terrible,
Speaker 1: or I find a brand new route that has felt
Speaker 1: inaccessible to me. So you know, whether it happens at
Speaker 1: thirty one, or happens in nineteen, or happens in sixty five. Um,
Speaker 1: hopefully we get to that place where we realize that
Speaker 1: the information that we're given is not leading us to
Speaker 1: the life that we want, and then we decided something
Speaker 1: about it. But hopefully, hopefully the newer generation actually has
Speaker 1: educators and accessible leaders who can help them so they
Speaker 1: don't have to go through those really dark places to
Speaker 1: find their light. I was gonna ask your typical audiences
Speaker 1: that it is it people in relationships or single people. Um,
Speaker 1: I have to do a poll for kind of to
Speaker 1: see what that is. My I know, my, you know,
Speaker 1: you know, you don't get those stats like on your
Speaker 1: algorithm stuff. You know you get I know that it's
Speaker 1: people twenty five and app So it's usually people who are, um,
Speaker 1: you know, in that place where they're starting to think
Speaker 1: more mindfully because unfortunately, yeah, when you're in your teens
Speaker 1: in the younger years, maybe you want to know how
Speaker 1: to give the best blow jobs, like how condoms work.
Speaker 1: But like, are you worried about your attachment style at
Speaker 1: that time? Probably not, should you be, absolutely so five
Speaker 1: to thirty five ish. So it's that person who's in
Speaker 1: that space of trying to find their person and find
Speaker 1: their groove. Um. And it's probably a mix of of
Speaker 1: single and connected people because you know, my podcast Ranges
Speaker 1: and Topics and we did Dating in your twenties last
Speaker 1: week and people loved that because a lot of people
Speaker 1: are single and going through that period of like this
Speaker 1: is nuts. But I would hope it's a mix of both. Well.
Speaker 1: I feel like intimacy is so weird now, especially with
Speaker 1: the pandemic and like trying to you know, be intimate
Speaker 1: and even just even just meeting people. It's like so
Speaker 1: interesting that pandemic was you know, hard for so many reasons,
Speaker 1: but people in my industry blew it open. And I
Speaker 1: don't know if you guys can to test this because
Speaker 1: you obviously are contributors and educators in this space as well.
Speaker 1: But it's almost as if when we stopped worrying about
Speaker 1: like our Starbucks stamp card and our commute to work
Speaker 1: and if we're getting a promotion or if our gym
Speaker 1: membership is serving us like everything else. When that got
Speaker 1: shut down and all we had was the people in
Speaker 1: our home, people had to really rethink and all of
Speaker 1: a sudden they started to prioritize or intimate relationships in
Speaker 1: the way that they didn't. So I feel like my
Speaker 1: work and the need for my work went huge. The
Speaker 1: spike went huge, way up as a result of the pandemic.
Speaker 1: So it changed stuff a lot for datas and it
Speaker 1: made things. I think it made things more difficult or
Speaker 1: more easy, kind of depending on what your style is,
Speaker 1: because some people the way things weren't doze nineteen was
Speaker 1: not working for them. Now that things are slowed down
Speaker 1: and they're much more intentional um and there's a lot
Speaker 1: more of a focus on things to know people versus
Speaker 1: getting to touch people. Some people really benefited from that shift,
Speaker 1: But I think overall, everybody rethought their intimate relationships in
Speaker 1: the way they hadn't before. I also think that's probably
Speaker 1: pretty evident from how many relationship podcasts that have like
Speaker 1: sparked in the past a little bit um So I
Speaker 1: think it's dalin all been pretty good for people. Reprioritizing
Speaker 1: relationships shook it up in a way that we clearly
Speaker 1: needed how did we get here? Why did sex become
Speaker 1: such a taboo thing to talk about? I thought you
Speaker 1: were asking about the pandemic, and I was like, how
Speaker 1: did this get tell us? We know you have the answer. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is where I started spending all my crazy conspiracy theory.
Speaker 1: So I'm sorry I got lost on Muhan. What was her?
Speaker 1: What were you actually going with this question? I wanted
Speaker 1: to know, how do you think that we got here
Speaker 1: with sex being such a taboo conversation to have? Man,
Speaker 1: I mean, I would like to think altruistically, like when
Speaker 1: I think about the Bible, right, like why in the
Speaker 1: Bible is it promoted to wait for sex until marriage?
Speaker 1: And why is it promoted not to have multiple partners,
Speaker 1: not to touch yourself into masturbate. And I think that
Speaker 1: health care access is a big part of that. So
Speaker 1: you know that many years ago there there probably wasn't
Speaker 1: a systematic healthcare practice that there was like one person
Speaker 1: in the city, and so people having multiple partners, and
Speaker 1: there was no birth control, so people having children out
Speaker 1: of wedlock where they couldn't support that child and getting
Speaker 1: several venereal diseases that obviously probably was an ideal for
Speaker 1: like society's progress. So I think creating a belief system
Speaker 1: that hey, like if you have stained from sex and
Speaker 1: make smarter choices, and you know, as much as marriage
Speaker 1: is like a cure all for not getting a STD,
Speaker 1: but it does also also ensure you have two parents
Speaker 1: who are like hopefully equally prioritized in child rearing. So
Speaker 1: I understand it from that perspective that it actually was
Speaker 1: a solution to a world that didn't have birth control
Speaker 1: and didn't have healthcare and probably didn't have as much
Speaker 1: information or knowledge around sex in general. And and then
Speaker 1: I just think people got getting weird with it. I
Speaker 1: don't know, it just became some yeah puritan and it
Speaker 1: twisted into something that was about control and shane and fear.
Speaker 1: I'd like to think that it started out of a
Speaker 1: place of altruism, and I also like to think about
Speaker 1: it's like encouraging connection. Also, It's like, you know, because
Speaker 1: obviously sex feels good. So if we were all just
Speaker 1: kind of running around like with everybody, it's kind of again,
Speaker 1: you're lacking that intimacy if you're just kind of going
Speaker 1: out and thinking everything that walks. It's nice to have
Speaker 1: that kind of moment where you go oh hey, wait
Speaker 1: a minute, Let's not just you know, think with our downstairs.
Speaker 1: Let's you know, work on this intimacy and develop this connection.
Speaker 1: So maybe, I mean, I agree with what you're saying.
Speaker 1: With at the time, it probably made the most sense,
Speaker 1: but obviously that doesn't really it doesn't work for us anymore.
Speaker 1: But again, rather than just sleeping with every everybody, just
Speaker 1: kind of focusing again on the intimacy and connecting with people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: one of the greatest things I think that I get
Speaker 1: to do is the study of science and sex and
Speaker 1: love is so fascinating. And you know, what we know
Speaker 1: now is the difference between like a sex drive and
Speaker 1: a romantic drive. And there's a difference between obviously lust
Speaker 1: and love and passionate experiences and companion experiences. So it's
Speaker 1: very possible to separate sexuality from emotional intimacy. But they're
Speaker 1: coupled together in a way to support evolutionary function. But
Speaker 1: if you're aware of that, you can like decouple them
Speaker 1: kind of like how our addiction to sugar or are
Speaker 1: draw to sugar is based on evolutionary merit, because you know,
Speaker 1: if you're out there in the wild and you eat
Speaker 1: something sweet, very few things are poisonous that are sweet,
Speaker 1: so your body is like more and more and more
Speaker 1: and more and more. Obviously, now that doesn't really work
Speaker 1: when like snickers are on deck in two thousand twenty two,
Speaker 1: So we have to now decouple our like natural drive
Speaker 1: for sugar with like what our actual biological needs are.
Speaker 1: Not to be said, I think it's very That was
Speaker 1: a very heavy way of me saying, like, yeah, tens
Speaker 1: of thousands of people, as long as you're very well
Speaker 1: aware of how to de couple emotional connections from that,
Speaker 1: because you know, doing both can be very damaging unless
Speaker 1: you're in a very mature, polyamous relationship. And then furthermore
Speaker 1: that you have the ability to ethically choose partners who
Speaker 1: are able to do the same so that people are
Speaker 1: not having sex at the cost of their mental health.
Speaker 1: So how do we change how do we make things better?
Speaker 1: You know you're doing you know what my question is,
Speaker 1: because you even said that a lot of your demographic
Speaker 1: is twenty five and of but you know, as someone
Speaker 1: like even my own experiences as being a guy being
Speaker 1: friends with guys, a lot of what I learned about
Speaker 1: sex was also from porn, which I don't think is
Speaker 1: the best thing. I'm not anti porn, but I am
Speaker 1: also anti learning how to have sex from porn because
Speaker 1: then there's certain expectations and both women and women feel
Speaker 1: like they should be, um, you know, reaching a certain
Speaker 1: level of satisfaction that's probably not realistic. Definitely not realistic.
Speaker 1: So I think, you know, and then there's also like
Speaker 1: the addiction part of porn, which is a different conversation.
Speaker 1: But I guess my question is what do we do
Speaker 1: because I think that there has to be conversations had
Speaker 1: with the younger generation, but how do you how do
Speaker 1: you blend that together with being not overly um, I
Speaker 1: don't know how to describe it. Like I just couldn't
Speaker 1: imagine a lot of parents not wanting to have to
Speaker 1: have their kids go to school and have conversations like this.
Speaker 1: But also I think it might be needed, especially in
Speaker 1: teenage years where those hormones start, you know, coming full
Speaker 1: full scale. Yeah, I mean, it definitely is necessary. It
Speaker 1: is a challenge. I started in this space at nineteen
Speaker 1: and thirty six now, so I think it needs to
Speaker 1: be a younger person than me. You know, if you're
Speaker 1: going to it's about peer education, having somebody who's got
Speaker 1: like a relative knowledge or who's in the school system
Speaker 1: or has a kid around that age, Like you have
Speaker 1: to immerse yourself and the experiences of what it's like
Speaker 1: to be young growing up today and sexual and aware
Speaker 1: of how to talk their language, and also meet them
Speaker 1: where they're at right now. So I think it takes
Speaker 1: that special expertise number one and number two. Yeah, when
Speaker 1: I did work more predominantly with teens and younger people,
Speaker 1: like my first book, Laid came out in two thousand nine,
Speaker 1: and that book was four people under twenty four. Like
Speaker 1: I was very clear that like, if you're over twenty four,
Speaker 1: I don't want to hear from you, and like I'm
Speaker 1: not interested in your perspective, and also like this is
Speaker 1: who this is for um. It was hard man, Like
Speaker 1: there's so much more judgment. You have to be very
Speaker 1: cautious of the language you use, you have to be
Speaker 1: very cautious of the topics you talk about when you
Speaker 1: get parents involved, and then you know, ultimately I started,
Speaker 1: I don't know about yourself, but I started watching porn
Speaker 1: at like thirteen fourteen. But you're supposed to pretend that
Speaker 1: nobody's sexual until eighteen, So it's difficult to access that
Speaker 1: crowd because parents are still under the illusion that their
Speaker 1: kids are here. So it's very difficult to get into
Speaker 1: the teen education space. And to those people who are
Speaker 1: doing it now and do a good job, like, kudos
Speaker 1: to you, because you gotta really, like you know, in
Speaker 1: those movies where you break into a bank and there's
Speaker 1: all these like lasers and you have to like jump
Speaker 1: in between them, like make it to the other side,
Speaker 1: like to actually make an impact. I think in that
Speaker 1: space there's a lot that you have to arm yourself with,
Speaker 1: both education wise, but then also like censorship because you
Speaker 1: have to tread that line so carefully. It's funny that
Speaker 1: you bring this topic up because I literally was having
Speaker 1: a kind of conversation with myself yesterday. Um so, Shan,
Speaker 1: I'm in the middle of doing fertility treatments and I'm
Speaker 1: freezing my eggs and that kind of congratulations again, look
Speaker 1: at you making all these great choices for your life,
Speaker 1: trying to um But so in going through it, you know,
Speaker 1: I think about being a parent a lot, and like
Speaker 1: the conversations, and something popped into my head and like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, one day I have to give a
Speaker 1: sex talk. And it was just like oh, like as
Speaker 1: we never know. And then for a second it was
Speaker 1: like scary to be like, oh, that's a big deal.
Speaker 1: And then I thought about it, like how my mom me,
Speaker 1: you know, the sex talk, she and my dad waited
Speaker 1: until they were married and blah blah blah, and she
Speaker 1: was just a liar, Like she just lied to me
Speaker 1: and she was a big fat liar and in her
Speaker 1: path that I wish she had told me because it
Speaker 1: would have won and made me feel like I could
Speaker 1: have gone to her with more and to like I
Speaker 1: would have. I think that there was just so much
Speaker 1: shame associated with it and like you were the same
Speaker 1: as me, like why and so yeah, like what the hell?
Speaker 1: And so it's just so funny that those gets brought
Speaker 1: up now because I was thinking about, you know, the
Speaker 1: way I want to approach these conversations, and I think
Speaker 1: it's so important to be honest with your kids, because
Speaker 1: let's be real, like how old were you when you
Speaker 1: lost your virginity and you're trying to ask your kid
Speaker 1: to wait longer than you And it's like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I've been watching three I don't know if you guys
Speaker 1: are watching and it's fantastic, highly recommend But it's just
Speaker 1: it's cool to watch the way that they parent their
Speaker 1: daughter in that show, and they give her so much
Speaker 1: trust and responsibility because you know it is your your child,
Speaker 1: so you know, you obviously want to shield them and
Speaker 1: protect them. Um, but having these open conversations with them
Speaker 1: and treating them like an adult and like the adult
Speaker 1: that you thought you were at that age, I think
Speaker 1: is helpful. I think it's just kind of creates this
Speaker 1: open space to have this dialogue and where your kids
Speaker 1: can come to you and have these conversations and just
Speaker 1: to be like, hey, I don't know, I don't have
Speaker 1: all the right answers, but this is what happened to me,
Speaker 1: and here's what I learned from that. And you know,
Speaker 1: hopefully you know you can make these decisions for yourself,
Speaker 1: and I can't be the one to make that choice
Speaker 1: for you. I can't tell you what is the right
Speaker 1: age to lose your virginity, but I hope that you
Speaker 1: can make that choice and make it and don't. It's
Speaker 1: not something that you take lightly. And so I just
Speaker 1: think parents need to be having more honest conversations and
Speaker 1: being real with our kids about Hey, um, I was fifteen,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, I have the exact same exsweris of
Speaker 1: my mom where it was like, I'm supposed to tell
Speaker 1: the person, you know who waited until mayor our age
Speaker 1: and was in love and it was like the perfect
Speaker 1: person my mom. You know, I did a different you.
Speaker 1: She had one partner before my dad, but that was
Speaker 1: like her long term high school sweetheart. Of course, to
Speaker 1: your point, later on I found out and there was
Speaker 1: a couple one night stands in there. Then we forgot
Speaker 1: to mention, but how am I supposed to tell this
Speaker 1: person who did everything so perfectly that like, hey, I'm
Speaker 1: having sex with carrots? Is that normal? Right? That didn't
Speaker 1: feel like a very accessible conversation. So I love what
Speaker 1: you just said about being honest and also to acknowledging
Speaker 1: that not the sex talk, it's the conversation, right, Like
Speaker 1: I have a one year old daughter and if she,
Speaker 1: you know, is around her genital region, I'm like volvo volva.
Speaker 1: So you know, you're providing the language right away, and
Speaker 1: then it's built into just a part of your natural dynamic.
Speaker 1: Doesn't have to become this thing that like we've never
Speaker 1: discussed and now you're twenties, So like, let's try to
Speaker 1: get this right in one shot. If you're just naturally
Speaker 1: always bringing it up as an age appropriate thing and
Speaker 1: it's you know, or get it to your relationship, I
Speaker 1: think that people would find that it's not this daunting,
Speaker 1: overwhelming thing and you don't have to think of out
Speaker 1: when to bring things up. Things will naturally present. This
Speaker 1: parents said to me, which I always think about and loved,
Speaker 1: is that they watched Gray's Anatomy with their kids, which
Speaker 1: is that show. You know, it's been on probably since
Speaker 1: many people I think or something watching it. She said
Speaker 1: that they watched that religiously, and that has that's the
Speaker 1: sex education because every time something happens in the show
Speaker 1: she has a personal story or she asked questions as
Speaker 1: inspired so many conversations between them. But again, it becomes
Speaker 1: this ongoing dynamic and a part of the way that
Speaker 1: the two of you communicate, so it doesn't feel weird
Speaker 1: or unnatural. And I love what you said because it's
Speaker 1: completely normal to be like, I don't have the answers
Speaker 1: to that, but you know, we talked about the softens.
Speaker 1: Next time I will, I'll look it up for you.
Speaker 1: We think that like to be a parent, you have
Speaker 1: to like have all the answers and you have to
Speaker 1: shield them from everything. You have to know everything, like
Speaker 1: I don't know what, Like I looked at my mom again.
Speaker 1: This all stemmed from watching three, and I looked at
Speaker 1: my mom in this new light recently because again there's
Speaker 1: just this amazing dynamic with this show. Highly recommend ten
Speaker 1: out of ten you should watch. But like looking at
Speaker 1: my mom is this person who is not like all
Speaker 1: the way grown and knowing, has all the answers and
Speaker 1: all the things, Like she's just a kid too. She
Speaker 1: just happens to be sixty two, Like she doesn't know
Speaker 1: what she's doing and she's just she's still like she's
Speaker 1: just me figuring it out. But like later on in life,
Speaker 1: like you know what I mean, she's not I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's just a cool dynamic to like see your parents
Speaker 1: in this new light and you're like, oh, you didn't
Speaker 1: know what you were doing. And also, my grandmother gave
Speaker 1: my mom the sex talk on the night before her
Speaker 1: wedding and my Mom's like, no, I know. Like so
Speaker 1: they've been raised by a completely different generation and so
Speaker 1: I think it's important for us like moving forward you know,
Speaker 1: with our kids down the line, just to change that
Speaker 1: because you know, they got this weird sex talk the
Speaker 1: night before their wedding, which isn't isn't realistic, And so
Speaker 1: I guess that's the kind of cool thing with us
Speaker 1: and all this means of communication that we can be like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, more comfortable talking about it. I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think what's changing too massively is like I think
Speaker 1: for the older generation, there was this idea like don't
Speaker 1: bring up your imperfections, don't talk about the likea that
Speaker 1: you drink at your job, hide your tattoos, like you
Speaker 1: had to compartmentalize everything about yourself to the point if
Speaker 1: you were lgbt Q plus, like don't let anybody know.
Speaker 1: And now we live in this place of like expression
Speaker 1: and bring your whole self to everything that you do,
Speaker 1: Like your job should know that you have a neck tattoo,
Speaker 1: and your um, your partner should know, like you know
Speaker 1: all parts of yourself. You don't have to create all
Speaker 1: these like siloed versions of you. And I know that
Speaker 1: when I first started as an educator, my parents were like,
Speaker 1: your way too raw, Like people want to see perfection,
Speaker 1: they want to see Oprah. They want to look at
Speaker 1: you as aspiration, like you have everything together. So the
Speaker 1: fact that you're sharing your mistakes, that you're swearing, or
Speaker 1: you're not always polished, like if you're never are going
Speaker 1: to gain people's respect that way. And I was like,
Speaker 1: your people's respect. You know, I'll come from a different generation, right,
Speaker 1: which likes authenticity, and so it's about again bringing your
Speaker 1: full self to things with J as we know, is
Speaker 1: also healthier for a true intimate relationship. I think there's
Speaker 1: a lot of ships that are happening Generation generation is
Speaker 1: happening with gen Z. Gen Z are so much more
Speaker 1: sexually fluid, They're so much more aware of their kinks.
Speaker 1: There's so much more comfortable talking about consent the millennials were,
Speaker 1: and so it continues to get better in that realm.
Speaker 1: And I'm really happy to hear that those are two things.
Speaker 1: That's funny to bring it up, like about kinks and stuff,
Speaker 1: because I my last relationship, he was like what are
Speaker 1: your things? And I was like, am I supposed to
Speaker 1: have things like? And I just don't like And it's
Speaker 1: it's funny that like knowing to like, how do we
Speaker 1: explore that side of yourself? And then also like the
Speaker 1: boundary with consent. There's so many times I was just like, oh,
Speaker 1: we're here, like and're just like okay, and it's just
Speaker 1: I love that they're having this conversation where they feel
Speaker 1: comfortable to you know, how their boundaries and their things
Speaker 1: like that. I guess I don't have things. I'm very boring.
Speaker 1: You don't think you have things, and you should spend
Speaker 1: some time you find out what your things are there.
Speaker 1: I'm kidding, I have things. Oh what are your things?
Speaker 1: That's that's that's happened, you know, in the spirit of
Speaker 1: authenticity and openness, Jared, what are your things? I've talked
Speaker 1: so I'm married and uh so that's my king. That's
Speaker 1: definitely my uh so Ashley and I yeah, she um man,
Speaker 1: it's weird talking about this. I guess we I mean
Speaker 1: I talked about it helps no eye contact. Yeah, no kidding,
Speaker 1: uh you know, I definitely. But also, I god, this
Speaker 1: is this is when you need Dan on the podcast,
Speaker 1: because Dean will talk about anything. Here's what would talk about.
Speaker 1: That's what I keep trying to think because I'm so
Speaker 1: I don't know why I'm so uncomfortable with sex. I
Speaker 1: think it's because I grew up in a very Christian household,
Speaker 1: and I'm like hearing you guys talk about it, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't know why. I feel like I
Speaker 1: can't talk about that, and I think it is like
Speaker 1: the Christian aspect. But so I'm like, what would Dean say?
Speaker 1: What would Dean say? And he'd probably just say something
Speaker 1: like super ridiculous, like he always does, but I just
Speaker 1: I can't think of what it would be. I think, well, like,
Speaker 1: all right, it's hard to talk about because it's it's
Speaker 1: so weird to be vulnerable in this status, like even
Speaker 1: saying like we talked about a lot of what I
Speaker 1: learned about sex was through porn, so like through through
Speaker 1: watching porn, Like I like to be a little bit
Speaker 1: more aggressive, and so that was something that you know,
Speaker 1: my it's so weird to talk about. My wife was
Speaker 1: a virgin for a very large portion of her life,
Speaker 1: and so it was sex was was different from us,
Speaker 1: you know, and so it was honestly a little bit
Speaker 1: of a learning curve, Like it was always really good,
Speaker 1: but they were they were you know, we had to
Speaker 1: kind of learn each other's bodies a little bit. And
Speaker 1: and so I, yeah, one of my kins is definitely like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe you know I've been I don't know,
Speaker 1: I don't you know. So I feel like one of
Speaker 1: mine that I've discovered is I like someone to be
Speaker 1: a little bit possessive in the bedroom. But like if
Speaker 1: you take that outside of the bed room and you
Speaker 1: try and tell me what to do, I'm gonna punch
Speaker 1: you in the fix. Not actually metaphorically, Oh totally, isn't
Speaker 1: it so like I can have we can have this conversation.
Speaker 1: Is It's so funny how like sometimes you do things
Speaker 1: behind closed doors and then you know consensual and then
Speaker 1: you leave and you're like, I cannot believe we just
Speaker 1: said or did that, Like that's crazy. It's so funny
Speaker 1: the way that this like kind of um like drunk
Speaker 1: thing comes over you and you're just like, I'm just
Speaker 1: saying things and I don't know why I'm saying them,
Speaker 1: but they're happening. That's the thing to make the point
Speaker 1: of great sex, right, because in everything else in life
Speaker 1: we have to be so buttoned up and so aware. Um.
Speaker 1: I read this book is called The Mastery of Love
Speaker 1: and just talks about humans being domesticated, like from the
Speaker 1: time that we're to write like, if you want to
Speaker 1: go in public and spinning a circle, don't. If you
Speaker 1: want to yell because you're on an airplane, you're frustrated, don't.
Speaker 1: Like everything that we do is so conditioned, and so
Speaker 1: we get this one place in theory where we're supposed
Speaker 1: to be able just to be authentic and live in
Speaker 1: the moment and be expressive and make faces we don't
Speaker 1: get to make. Usually it make sounds we don't get
Speaker 1: to make, and bring up desires and you know, things
Speaker 1: that we've been repressing for so long. And hopefully if
Speaker 1: you are a well adjusted person and go to therapy,
Speaker 1: your desires are not you know, offensive or harmful to
Speaker 1: other people. But there's in it's beautiful form. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: is like the ultimate release and the ultimate expression of
Speaker 1: self and of freedom when you can get to that
Speaker 1: place some sex, and I think that that's what we're
Speaker 1: all trying to get to. So I actually have a
Speaker 1: personal question for you. So I was in an abusive relationship.
Speaker 1: Um he never visibly, but there was sexual abuse and
Speaker 1: there was um just a lot of emotional abuse. And
Speaker 1: I am physically incapable of being like the idea of
Speaker 1: being with anybody else's like really really hard, and like,
Speaker 1: how do you get past that? How do you? Like,
Speaker 1: I haven't even I can't go on a date, I
Speaker 1: haven't been kissed in since, Like how do you move
Speaker 1: past that? Like? How do you get past that point?
Speaker 1: Where like it's it feels so terrifying to be vulnerable
Speaker 1: and intimate with somebody and to let somebody else in, Like,
Speaker 1: how do you how do you get past that? Well,
Speaker 1: first and foremost, I'm so sorry you went through that,
Speaker 1: And that is so beautiful of you to share. So
Speaker 1: many people can relate to that, and you know are
Speaker 1: afraid to say exactly what you just said. So I'm
Speaker 1: sure it took a lot of time and healing to
Speaker 1: even get to a place where you can name it
Speaker 1: and claim it for what it is without blaming yourself. Um,
Speaker 1: So I think that that's really beautiful and inspiring. So
Speaker 1: I appreciate you sharing that. And I think if the
Speaker 1: idea of being with somebody else is too scary, Like
Speaker 1: what's not too scary is going on a chat room
Speaker 1: to VR chat room as an alias and just talking
Speaker 1: to people and talking something. Is that scary? Then do
Speaker 1: that is going to your friend out with your friends
Speaker 1: is a wing person where it's not for you, but
Speaker 1: you had a single friend that you're like, I'm going
Speaker 1: to try to like talk to different groups, like get
Speaker 1: you socialized even when you like anybody. So I'm your
Speaker 1: wing persons not for me. If that's not scary, do that,
Speaker 1: Like find meet yourself where you are. You don't have
Speaker 1: to try to push yourself past the place of comfort
Speaker 1: because you won't even show up. It's the best version
Speaker 1: of yourself. You put yourself in fight or flight, so
Speaker 1: you're not doing yourself any favors by being like just
Speaker 1: do it, um. Instead think about, like what is the
Speaker 1: next step for you that does seem accessible, whatever it
Speaker 1: is that allows you get into the flow and gain
Speaker 1: the confidence. And I don't know what your specific pain
Speaker 1: point is or where your boundary is a fear um,
Speaker 1: but I think if you can locate that for yourself
Speaker 1: of like what I'm afraid of is falling in love again,
Speaker 1: I'm afraid of me another terial person, I'm afraid everybody's negative.
Speaker 1: Kind of figure out what that fear is, and then
Speaker 1: I did defy, what is the most accessible logical way
Speaker 1: for you not to step into that new you know, you,
Speaker 1: but to tiptoe. I think that that's where you meet yourself.
Speaker 1: It literally makes me shake, like I'm like sitting here
Speaker 1: like and it's like it is what it is, and
Speaker 1: it sucks that it happened. And I definitely think it
Speaker 1: has made me stronger, but it's it's it's hard to
Speaker 1: be like wanting to move forward and take that step
Speaker 1: to like like I want to just be healed and
Speaker 1: done with it and whatever, and it's And I had
Speaker 1: therapy yesterday and she reminded me that I'm still very
Speaker 1: much actively in my trauma um and so that kind
Speaker 1: of helps because I was like, why don't I want
Speaker 1: to date? Like what's my problem? Like why like and
Speaker 1: like why can't I get there? And She's just like,
Speaker 1: you don't need to be there right now. But I
Speaker 1: love the idea of like kind of like walking like
Speaker 1: visualizing like what it will be like when I get
Speaker 1: back into it. So I was like, what do I do?
Speaker 1: So that's a good idea. Just kind of be a
Speaker 1: wingman for somebody and just kind of take the pressure
Speaker 1: off myself. I sure even doing this podcast is probably
Speaker 1: a step in their great right direction. If you're meeting
Speaker 1: new people, this is the first date, right, Like, I
Speaker 1: don't know you guys, you don't know me, We don't
Speaker 1: have any ideas. It's a little uncomfortable. We're coming together
Speaker 1: and trying to pretend that we're all best friends for
Speaker 1: forty minutes. So there's a challenge with that, but that's
Speaker 1: what dating is. So you're kind of putting yourself back
Speaker 1: into that groove and then also being like, wow, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of really interesting, cool people who I feel
Speaker 1: like I can share parts of myself that I couldn't
Speaker 1: share with the part person I was with for years
Speaker 1: because I was afraid of them and I was afraid
Speaker 1: of who had they would respond to the authentic meet.
Speaker 1: So I think you're already doing that, you know, right
Speaker 1: step and if you kind of reframe your mind to
Speaker 1: like everything is intimacy, right, Like majority of things are
Speaker 1: about close personal relationships. Just building that confidence up again. Um,
Speaker 1: but yeah, you're obviously already well on your way because
Speaker 1: you have a therapist and you have all these incredible
Speaker 1: like ah ha moments you're able to share so vocally
Speaker 1: and you're literally a public figure who talks about data,
Speaker 1: you can share it vocally. But then actually putting me
Speaker 1: actually it's like you get there right. I'm sure Sharon
Speaker 1: talking about it vocally a couple of years ago felt
Speaker 1: crazy to YouTube. True true too too. Well. Shan, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us today. That was awesome.
Speaker 1: And Caroline, thank you so much for sharing that story. Um,
Speaker 1: probably pretty difficult. So uh, Shan bood Ram, make sure
Speaker 1: you check out our podcast Lovers and Friends. You can
Speaker 1: listen to wherever you listen to your podcast number one
Speaker 1: o nine right now and rising. Hey you said from
Speaker 1: your lips to the charts baby, yes, yeah, well Shan,
Speaker 1: you were awesome. Thank you so much for your for
Speaker 1: a lot of knowledge that you you've bread on this
Speaker 1: podcast and on your own. So everybody go listen to
Speaker 1: Lovers and Friends with Shan bood Ram. Uh, and thanks again,
Speaker 1: please come back soon. I'm look at your books. I'm excited.
Speaker 1: Oh I appreciate that the game of csarre is also
Speaker 1: my heart. Um, this was a joy talk to you guys. Bye,
Speaker 1: thank you all right, I'll do it for this week's
Speaker 1: podcast once again, go listen to Sham bood Rams. I
Speaker 1: just like saying her name podcast Lovers and Friends. You
Speaker 1: can listen to that wherever you're probably listening to this
Speaker 1: podcast right now. Caroline, thank you so much for coming
Speaker 1: onto the podcast once again. You are such a joy. Kalen,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us and uh filling
Speaker 1: in in Dean shoes, but it's always wonderful having you
Speaker 1: on this podcast and seeing your face, so thank you
Speaker 1: so much, UH and everybody listening, thank you for listening,
Speaker 1: because without you guys, there would be no podcast. UH
Speaker 1: and please tune in next week where hopefully we uh
Speaker 1: I'll suck a little less. Follow hell by suck at
Speaker 1: Dating on I Heart Radio or wherever you listen to
Speaker 1: podcast