1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mob Never Told You. From House to 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: abortion dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today is part one of 4 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:23,279 Speaker 1: a two parter that we are doing on abortion and 5 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: particularly abortion in the United States. And I think that 6 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: our our talk about abortion should just go ahead and 7 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 1: be prefaced with the clear statement that we aren't pro abortion. 8 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: I don't think anyone is pro abortion, but we are 9 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: pro choice absolutely. Yeah. We are in favor of letting 10 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: women decide whether to have children or not have children. 11 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: And honestly, Caroline, the more I learned about the history 12 00:00:55,560 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: of abortion, and particularly it's criminalization and subsequent legalization in 13 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: the United States, the more pro choice I have become, 14 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: the more deeply committed I am as a person and 15 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: have become to championing that right. Yeah, I agree, And 16 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: it seems like the deeper we went into abortion history, 17 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: the more it became clear to me that while abortion 18 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 1: has always happened throughout our history, and we'll always continue 19 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 1: to happen in one form or another, and while it 20 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:34,399 Speaker 1: is always to some degree been a taboo, uh, it's 21 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: interesting to look at how the fight against women being 22 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: able to have abortion seems so tied to seemingly ancillary issues. UM. 23 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: Abortion seems to be caught up in the argument between uh, 24 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: for instance, the professionalization of medicine and the professionalization of 25 00:01:55,800 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: obstetrics versus those evil, sneaky low class midwives. UM. It 26 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: also seems to be caught up in conversations about population 27 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: growth and control, about wealth versus poverty, high class versus 28 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: low class Americans, race. I mean, abortion itself almost seems 29 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: like just another bullet point in all of these discussions 30 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: that have been going on since the dawn of our 31 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: country's history. And it's so often portrayed, especially in our 32 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: political landscape, as a black or and white issue, where 33 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: you're either pro choice or anti choice, where whereas, of course, 34 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: of course, as is often the case when you really 35 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: dig into what you're talking about, there are so many 36 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: different layers to it. And even though we've talked about 37 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: reproductive rights on the podcast before a long time ago, UH, 38 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 1: Molly and I did a podcast on the mechanics of abortion, 39 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: and we're not going to get into like how abortions 40 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: work in terms of surgically how they were today. UM. 41 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: And we've also talked about planned parenthood before but after 42 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 1: this year, and we're recording this listeners at the end 43 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: of we could not talk about abortion considering the reproductive 44 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: rights climate um in the US right now, and the 45 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: planned parenthood hearings with Cecile Richard's before Congress, the planned 46 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 1: parenthood shooting in Colorado Springs, and on and on and on, 47 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: and so many bills being presented at Congress's both within 48 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: the States and also nationally to restrict women's right to choose. Yeah, 49 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: And so what Kristen and I wanted to do is 50 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: really provide a context for the abortion discussion that's going 51 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: on today in this country. We didn't just want to 52 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: tick down the list of what happened in abortion history 53 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: year to year, decade to decade, century to century. We 54 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:58,839 Speaker 1: really hope to illustrate the fact that, like I said, 55 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: abortion is something that's always happened and that women will 56 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: always find a way to achieve. And so we wanted 57 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: to shed a little light on the politics, the culture 58 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: that goes on around it, and what influences whether people 59 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: are for it or against it. Can we start off 60 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: now with a little bit of Gloria Steina. Of course 61 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 1: that might seem like a bit of a side note, UM, 62 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: but in reading up on abortion history for this episode, 63 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: it made me think of Gloria Steinham's new memoir, My 64 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: Life on the Road, and how she dedicated it to 65 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:38,119 Speaker 1: the British doctor who performed an abortion for her, and 66 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: hearing her talk about that experience, UM, in interviews that 67 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: she was having, you know, in months past while she 68 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 1: was on that book tour, just made me think of 69 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: how recent a lot of this history is. You know, this, 70 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: this is a woman that you and I have had 71 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: the esteemed honor of meeting. And you know, she lived 72 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: in a time as so many of our mothers or 73 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: grandmothers did, when you would have to iss. She did 74 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: find a doctor who would do this thing he wasn't 75 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: supposed to do. And in the dedication to her memoir, 76 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 1: Gloria Steinham relays what this doctor Sharp made her promise 77 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: in order, but before he agreed to perform her abortion, 78 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 1: he said, you must promise me two things. First, you'll 79 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 1: not tell anyone my name. Second, you will do what 80 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 1: you want to do with your life. Dear doctor Sharp, 81 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,280 Speaker 1: I believe you, who knew the law was unjust, would 82 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: not mind if I say this so long after your 83 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 1: death I've done the best I could with my life, 84 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 1: and this book is for you. Gosh, isn't that that 85 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: just always made me just cry? Yeah? I mean I 86 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: think that that's an excellent snapshot of the attitude that 87 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: many pro choice women and men have, which is, you 88 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: should be able to live the life that you want 89 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: to live, and to choose to live live at the 90 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: way that you want. And so with that, should we 91 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 1: give a little historical con text? Of course, that's the 92 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: whole point of this. This is a context too. So 93 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: let's sleep way back in time, way way way before 94 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:14,359 Speaker 1: Gloria Steinem to ancient history, where we often begin, because 95 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: here's the thing. For most of history, there have been 96 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: permissible circumstances for early term abortions. Right the line in 97 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: the sand, so to speak, was something called the quickening, 98 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: which is basically when a woman would feel the fetus 99 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 1: move for the first time. This typically happened in the 100 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: about fourth month of pregnancy, and everybody pretty much assumed like, 101 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 1: there's no pregnancy before that. Um, it's more a lack 102 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 1: of a period, a lack of amensies, um. And so 103 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: when the quickening happened, that's when people got sort of 104 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: iffy about abortion happening now. In ancient Greece and Rome, 105 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: the only time that a pre quickening abortion would be 106 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: a big deal would be if the dad actually felt 107 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: entitled to which child. But even Aristotle advised abortion in 108 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 1: cases when couples have children in excess, partly because of 109 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: this whole idea that fetuses were not fully formed until 110 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: forty days after conception for boys and eighty days for girls. 111 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: It takes a little longer for girls to We've got 112 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: to get our makeup on, you know, and that takes forever, 113 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: and then like you've got to wait for the straightening 114 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: iron to heat up and do your hair. So I 115 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: mean it's a miracle we can even get out of 116 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: the womb. Yeah, I mean it takes me forty days 117 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: every morning to get ready, So it feels like it 118 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: for me. I don't know how I'm here, um. But 119 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: in fact, that forty day mark um was something that 120 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: for a long time the Catholic Church used as its 121 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: um sort of line in the sand as well, not 122 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: condemning abortion before that period, under the belief that the 123 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: soul hadn't yet entered the fetus, Although that policy would 124 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: certainly change and we should emphasize though, that abortion was 125 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: not morally ideal, but it certainly wasn't as unconscionable as 126 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: many people consider it today, as that early developing fetus 127 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: was really just considered a part of the mother. And 128 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: so a lot of this early focus on abortion up 129 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: into the nineteenth century, as we'll get to, UH, focused 130 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: all on the health of the mother and what was 131 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: up to her, what she felt in terms of the 132 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: quickening oh my god, something something being left up to 133 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: a woman, a medical decision being left up to a woman. 134 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: And that's sort of the point of this whole discussion 135 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: of early abortion, which is that with this idea of 136 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: the quickening and waiting until the mother says, oh, like 137 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: I felt it, kick, I've got a baby in me now, hooray, 138 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: we're going to be parents. Um, it was it was 139 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: really up to the mother's judgment um, and then only 140 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 1: then would other people except that she had a pregnancy. 141 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: And in the cases that women discovered that they were pregnant, 142 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: that their men's sees had stopped. Uh. There were all sorts, 143 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: especially herbal abortifactions, that women might seek out to induce miscarriages, 144 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: and Kathleen London at Yale describes all sorts of these 145 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,959 Speaker 1: folk remedies, such as in Germany, things like marjorom time 146 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: parsley in lavender in t form were used, and that 147 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,959 Speaker 1: just sounds like a pleasant to be honest. And also 148 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 1: in Germany and in France they used the root of 149 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: worm fern, which was very pleasantly nicknamed prostitute root. And 150 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: that actually the stretch back to ancient Greece. So that's 151 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: something that had been in continual use since then. And 152 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: then in more modern times, if you if your garden 153 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 1: wasn't growing so well, you could always reach for some 154 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: turpentine or cast royal, or maybe quinine water in which 155 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:52,319 Speaker 1: a rusty nail had been soaked. Cocktails or speaking of cocktails, 156 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 1: Carolina Gin one of your faiths, Gin with some iron fillings. Well, 157 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: speaking of cocktails, I mean yeah, winine and jin there 158 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: you go to Gin and tonic ataf of women were doing. 159 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: Oh lord, Now, Germany and France weren't the only places 160 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: that had folk remedies. Of course, women in America use 161 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: these remedies as well, things like seven or got rude 162 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 1: tansy or penny royalty. They also used rosemary and lavender, 163 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: slave women would turn to cotton root. But ps y'all, 164 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: penny royalty wasn't really a pleasant way to induce a miscarriage. 165 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: You might experience possibly fatal symptoms including tingling fingers, nausea, dizziness, 166 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,959 Speaker 1: and strange burning sensations. Yeah, I mean, because essentially what 167 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 1: these women were trying to do was poison their body 168 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:48,679 Speaker 1: into inducing a miscarriage. So these herbal abortivations weren't necessarily 169 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: the safest or healthiest routes. Um. But it wasn't just 170 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: about going out and plucking some houbs and making some 171 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,839 Speaker 1: tea and muddling some things. Well to do. Ladies and 172 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 1: their gents might also procure so called female pills, which 173 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: were meant to induce miscarriages as well. And there was 174 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: a euphemism actually, um that is found in a lot 175 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: of women's like letters and diaries for taking these quote 176 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: unquote female pills, which they called taking the trade. Yeah, 177 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 1: And in a lot of sources that we were reading 178 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: about this, they talk about how if a euphemism exists 179 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: for something that that typically reveals both an openness and 180 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: acceptance about the fact that this is happening, that women 181 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: are controlling their own fertility, but also the need for secrecy. 182 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: So like this is happening and we're writing letters to 183 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: each other or writing in our diaries about it, but 184 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: we can't just say I'm getting rid of my pregnancy. 185 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: We've got to call it something. Well, they might just 186 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: call it going horseback riding. And of course there are 187 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: also so called like external aboardi facians with things like 188 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: heavy lifting, climbing trees, jumping, also douching with lie This 189 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: is when we get into the far more dangerous types 190 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 1: of self induced abortion, or of course knitting needles and 191 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: coat hangers being inserted into the vagina to try to 192 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: pierce the uterus. That just sounds horrific. All of that 193 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:21,839 Speaker 1: sounds horrific. Um and not making it any easier though, 194 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: is the rise of morality around abortion and how it 195 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:31,319 Speaker 1: affected laws in the UK and the US. Yeah, what 196 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 1: what I was genuinely surprised to learn was just how 197 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: chill we were legally in the United States and under 198 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: like English common law regarding pre quickening abortions. Like we said, 199 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: while it wasn't like morally solid gold, it was not 200 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: the end of the world either. So pre eighteen hundreds 201 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: in the US there were no laws against pre quickening abortions. 202 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: Those kinds of um sort of home making colonial guides 203 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: that women would have would include commonly recipes for those 204 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: herbal abortivations well, usually under the euphemism of bringing on 205 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: the men's sees. So, oh, your mensies has stopped, here's 206 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: what to take to bring it on. Restore that men's sees. Um. 207 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: And Protestants and Catholics were mostly fine with it too, 208 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: although Christianity considered it taboo unless in the case of 209 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 1: preserving the mother's health, and a lot of our sources 210 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: noted that even through the nineteenth century, many women didn't 211 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: consider abortion a sin. Probably helped buy things like the 212 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 1: euphemisms of you know, I'm just bringing back my men 213 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: sees or taking the trade. It's no big deal. And 214 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: speaking of English common law, though in eighteen o three, 215 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: the English decreed that a post quickening abortion was a 216 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 1: crime punishable by death, so that escalated quickly. Yeah, but 217 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: it wasn't so much about preserving the developing life of 218 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 1: that fetus, as a lot of our abortion debates, at 219 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: least in the United States, are focused on today. Those 220 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: first statutes in the UK and also in the United 221 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: States outlawing abortion. We're far more concerned with preserving mother's lives. 222 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 1: I mean, essentially, these were poison control methods. Yeah. And 223 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: what's confusing there for me though, is so they're worried 224 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: about you poisoning yourself, and if you try to poison yourself, 225 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: they'll put you to death. Okay, Yeah, that is kind 226 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: of a mixed message. But as we move into the 227 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: middle of the nineteenth century, particularly in the eighteen forties, 228 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: abortion starts to be a profitable business. You see more 229 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: and more advertisements by uh quote unquote drug companies, not 230 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: like we would think of them today obviously, but people 231 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: creating those female pills. We see midwives, and we see 232 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: people like a Madame Restell, who advertised her birth control 233 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: and abortion services. Yeah. So Madame Rossell was the pseudonym 234 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: of Abor Shonist and Lowman, who was later dub the 235 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: Wickedest Woman of New York. And she essentially set up 236 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: an abortion service where she would sell her infamous monthly 237 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: pills that you could order by mail or if you 238 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 1: would go in and see her, she would give you 239 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: these pills that would possibly induce a miscarriage. But then 240 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: she would also rely on clients coming back because they 241 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: wouldn't work, and she would administer abortions for twenty dollars 242 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: if you were poor, or hundred dollars if you were rich. 243 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: And she was so successful that she opened branch offices 244 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: in Boston, in Philadelphia. Yeah, she even had traveling salespeople 245 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: going door to door in different big cities selling her tonics. Um. 246 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: And of course you know all of these ads. Again, 247 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: they were all very euphemistic, selling her services and selling 248 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: her tonics and potions and things of that nature. And 249 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 1: not surprisingly, she did face a lot of criticism, probably 250 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: for her notoriety. She wasn't a midwife who kept to 251 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: herself in her own little cottage. I mean, this is 252 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: a woman who was so successful that she was buying 253 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: real estate. She had a huge property built in New 254 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: York City. She would wear furs and jewels, and people 255 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: were just disgusted by this ostentatious show of wealth, especially 256 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: because of how she earned her money. Um. But the 257 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: thing is, the criticisms that she faced sound pretty familiar 258 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: if you're a person alive today reading the news. She 259 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: was accused of praying on the naive and poor, of 260 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 1: threatening the institution of marriage of helping women shirk the 261 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: duties of motherhood and even encouraging prostitution, and basically her 262 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 1: response to this was like, I don't understand why you 263 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: people think that all of the women in your lives 264 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: are just waiting for the chance to be vicious and awful. 265 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: Like women don't sit around being like, you know, I'm 266 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: going to get pregnant so I can go get an abortion. 267 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: I just think that that sounds like a gray idea 268 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: or you know what, I'm pregnant and all of a sudden, 269 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: I'm just bored. I'm just gonna go get this taken 270 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: care of. She basically was like, listen, your women aren't 271 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,159 Speaker 1: less virtuous because they do this, and how dare you 272 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: assume that any of them in such a vicious way 273 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,880 Speaker 1: want to go do this. She also though, and this 274 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: is sort of a topic that we will revisit in 275 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: greater detail later, she asserted that doctors and politicians wanted 276 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: people like her out of the way so they could 277 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 1: make more money because around this time you start seeing 278 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: the professionalization of medicine, uh medicalized abortion happening, with more 279 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: surgical options, more professional obstetricians performing these procedures, and so 280 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:49,199 Speaker 1: that kind of left abortion open mostly to the wealthy, 281 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: whereas poor women still relied on those potions that women 282 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: like Madam Ristel sold, those uterine tonics or cathartic pills 283 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: as they were sometimes called. Um. Yeah, it's fascinating to 284 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: see how this is the period when this becomes a 285 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 1: socio economic issue as well. And we should mention too 286 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 1: that the majority of Madame Russell's clients, and also a 287 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: majority of women who seek abortions today were married. These 288 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: women were married with kids. Um. But also during this 289 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:27,159 Speaker 1: time in the mid eighteen hundreds, when Madame Ristel is 290 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 1: getting yourself arrested a couple of times, people are really 291 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: you know, calling her wicked and all of these things, 292 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: the abortion debate intensifies along with moralizing in the US. 293 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: So it's in the mid nineteenth century that Massachusetts enacts 294 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: the first state law making an abortion or attempted abortion 295 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 1: at any point in pregnancy a criminal offense and a 296 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: really comprehensive papor we found from Ohio State University also 297 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: notes how there is a distinctly American shift toward abortion 298 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: being reframed as a moral issue and as a sin 299 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: at this time, whereas you see over in Europe, the 300 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 1: abortion debate starts to shift more toward focusing on how 301 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 1: a lot of these women are just in dire straits 302 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: and they lack resources, so let's let the government step 303 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: in and do something about it, rather than this moralistic 304 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: tone that it takes across the pond, where women who 305 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: are seeking abortions are obviously immoral, possibly prostitutes, They're irresponsible, 306 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: and they are you know, essentially making God cry. And 307 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:40,400 Speaker 1: just a few decades later, in the eighteen seventies, despite 308 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 1: the increase in moralizing, there are two hundred full time 309 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 1: abortionists in New York alone who have a pretty okay 310 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: collective safety rate of of performing these procedures or handing 311 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 1: out these tonics and having women uh survive. But you know, 312 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: we can't just leave the moralizing behind. This is also 313 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: the time in the eighteen seventies when we get Anthony 314 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: Comstock and the Comstock Laws. He's the worst. Yeah, he's 315 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: the worst, but he doesn't he sounds completely modern to me, Kristen, 316 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: I've got to say, reading about this guy, he sounds 317 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 1: absolutely like somebody you'd read about in the news today. 318 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 1: Tell me more. I will so. In eighteen seventy three, Comstock, 319 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: who is an anti sex trade and pornography crusader, helped 320 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: push a bill through Congress that defined contraceptive and contraception 321 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 1: information at all period as obscene, saying that they promoted 322 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: lust and lewdness. So a little bit of context within 323 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: the context. Within the context, the diaphragm had been invented 324 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: in Europe in eighteen forty two, and the full length 325 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,959 Speaker 1: rubber condom in the US in eighteen sixty nine. So 326 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: Comstock was seeing ads for birth control for people like 327 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: Madam Rastell, for those tonics to bring on your men 328 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: sees and things like that, and he's like, oh, sto gross, 329 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: this is awful. Uh. And similarly, though, it's also worth 330 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 1: noting that Comstock was one of the many, many, many, 331 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: many many people who did not distinguish between birth control 332 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:16,400 Speaker 1: and abortion. So in his mind, it was just as 333 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: bad to advertise your abortion services as it was birth 334 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: control services. And by birth control services, at this time, 335 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: we're talking exclusively about those barrier methods, right, Okay, So 336 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: thanks to all Comstock can all squeaked out over some advertisements. Uh, 337 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: The Comstock laws passed and it becomes illegal to send 338 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 1: birth control through the mail or across state line. So 339 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,919 Speaker 1: all those care packages with condoms that I send you 340 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: every every month, Carol, I love it, balloon animals all day, Yes, good, 341 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: and send them. Although I guess it's not across state line, 342 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 1: so comp Stock approved, I can keep doing it. Um. 343 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: Twenty four states, though, soon passed their own versions of 344 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: Comstock laws, with New England states instituting the toughest ones, 345 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: which is interesting to me. I mean, I I think 346 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 1: nowadays of New England being fairly blue on the political spectrum, 347 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: but they were definitely cracking down on any type of 348 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: uh funny business so to speak, and either trying to 349 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 1: make up for lost time. But by abortion had been 350 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: criminalized across the US, except in cases to save a 351 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: mother's life. Meanwhile, English law had been amended so that 352 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: it could take place when quote done in good faith 353 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 1: for the purpose only of preserving the life of the mother. 354 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 1: So you already start to see in the nineteen twenties 355 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: Britain starting to back pedal a little bit in terms 356 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 1: of its abortion criminalization, whereas in the United States it 357 00:22:55,080 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 1: is just continuing to dig in its heels. But what 358 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: happened during this time, Caroline I mean, how did we 359 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:08,159 Speaker 1: go from, you know, especially during this period in the 360 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: nineteenth century, from prequickening abortion being pretty much like a 361 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 1: way of life. You might not talk about it openly, 362 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 1: but you've got some euphemisms. It's just gonna probably happen 363 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: to the turn of the century when it's completely illegal. 364 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 1: So the whole irony of this time period is that 365 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 1: it's called the Progressive Era. That is the backdrop that 366 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: we're really going to dig into. Two add a little 367 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: bit more nuanced to better understand why abortion became criminalized 368 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: in the United States, because you might think, listening to 369 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: political arguments today that it was because, oh, we we 370 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,120 Speaker 1: just decided that we wanted to preserve the lives of 371 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,439 Speaker 1: these fetuses. We needed more babies. It's all about the 372 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 1: potential babies, right, But no, actually, when it comes to criminalization, 373 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 1: it's sort of all about the dudes. If we look 374 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: in the Progressive era and what's going on. And Leslie 375 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: Jay Reagan has been an outstanding resource on the history 376 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 1: of abortion in the United States, and in her paper 377 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: Linking Midwives and Abortion in the Progressive Era, she wrote, 378 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 1: and I quote, the combined campaign to control abortion and 379 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: midwiffery took the form of a classic progressive era reform movement. 380 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: A coalition of private interest groups, doctors, female reformers, nurses, 381 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: and journalists of the native born, white middle class identified 382 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 1: a problem, investigated and documented its extent in objective reports, 383 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:49,439 Speaker 1: and mobilized to promote a state sponsored solution. So you 384 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: had a bunch of people going, we know better than you. 385 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 1: Listen to us, We're going to fix your live And 386 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: a lot of Reagan's research focuses around Chicago being an 387 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:05,880 Speaker 1: ink cubator for anti midwiffery and therefore anti abortion sentiment. 388 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 1: There were all of these fears during the progressive era, 389 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,679 Speaker 1: and Kristen and I have talked about this many times 390 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 1: on the podcast before, around women's sexuality versus their innocence, 391 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,120 Speaker 1: particularly in these urban centers where more and more young 392 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 1: women were moving away from the farms and moving into 393 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,159 Speaker 1: towns to make money, to make a living, living on 394 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: their own, maybe living in boarding houses with other single women, 395 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: but essentially you have this wave of urban working women 396 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: making everybody a little nervous. Uh. There were all of 397 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:43,399 Speaker 1: these concerns that these women were or would be victims 398 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: of male lust, but also they were blamed for being 399 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 1: harlots for liking it. So there was this duality of 400 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: judgment on a lot of these urban women, many of 401 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 1: whom these progressive era reformers assumed, we're going and getting 402 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: abortion like every week. Um. And so these anxieties helped 403 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 1: give rise to the attitude of yeah, yeah, let's take 404 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 1: the powers and abilities away from midwives and give all 405 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 1: of those powers and abilities two doctors. And it's interesting 406 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 1: it was not just male doctors who were against midwives. 407 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: There were a lot of female doctors who were just 408 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: as likely to slam midwives. During this time, doctor Eliza 409 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: root In three blamed midwives for infections and inducing abortions, 410 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 1: but bt dubs. She also blamed improperly trained doctors in general, 411 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 1: saying they were just as bad. And this was presented 412 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 1: at a conference at a medical gathering, and the result 413 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: was essentially, and I'm grossly over generalizing, but the result 414 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 1: was basically a lot of doctors going, look over there, 415 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: midwives are evil, Like we're fine, we're gonna keep doing this. 416 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: We've got tools and medical degrees, like they're just low 417 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: class women with herbs, with herbs, and this idea of 418 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 1: quickening that was one of the big things that these 419 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:19,239 Speaker 1: uh fancy professionalized doctors wanted to scientifically debunk was the 420 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 1: idea of quickening, because they said that it was just 421 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: an emotional experience that women would have and therefore couldn't 422 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 1: be trusted. So that gets those pre quickening abortion sort 423 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: of off the table. So all this was happening on 424 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: the heels of the newly formed American Medical Association, which 425 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 1: got together in eighteen fifty seven, and soon after all 426 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: these dude doctors got together and we're like, hey, let's 427 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 1: professionalize this whole medicine thing. Oh, by the way, let's 428 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: launch an anti abortion campaign and target these midwives and homeopaths, 429 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 1: whom they termed a regulars. And that was a term 430 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: irregulars that even the media picked up on, so they 431 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 1: would that lamestream media. So you have the other ring 432 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: effect of these midwives and homeo paths. And from eighteen 433 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: eighty to nineteen twenty, there was this massive debate really 434 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: all around the turn of the century over midwives, because 435 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: by this point, midwives were considered almost synonymous with abortions, 436 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: and one of the big pitches that these doctors had 437 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: for pooh pooing midwives. Was it okay, they're performing all 438 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: of this hocus pocus and all of the abortions, and 439 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: you know what they're doing. They are depleting the white race. 440 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: And now we get to the pivot of eugenics. Yeah, 441 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: Eugenics emerges in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, 442 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: first in England and then in the US before being 443 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: exported to Nazi Germany. And it was the idea that 444 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 1: certain physical, mental, and moral traits were genetics. So it 445 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: was very important to these people, these people being everyone 446 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:19,719 Speaker 1: from the American President to presidents of universities to politicians 447 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: to your average Joe on the street. Um, it was 448 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: important to them to weed out bad traits like poverty, promiscuity, criminality, 449 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: mental disability. And I want to go back in my 450 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 1: time machine and have a talk about privilege basically with 451 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: with this whole eugenics thing and assuming that things like 452 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 1: poverty are genetic rather than the product of generations of oppression. 453 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: But any who, I think it's interesting to me that 454 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: in the time when abortion is becoming illegal across this 455 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: country and people are saying it's immoral and awful, eugenicists 456 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: were pushing legislation for forced sterilization of the poor and disabled. 457 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: Tens of thousands of poor women in this country were sterilized. 458 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: The movement ends up peaking in the twenties and thirties, 459 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: but it carries through and it's not until you know, 460 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: like after World War Two, the people are like, oh, 461 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: that Hitler guy kind of ruined that for us. But 462 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 1: I find it interesting that you can be against abortion 463 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: but for for sterilization of innocent women. And this goes 464 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: to what's also happening at the time, this white fright 465 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 1: that's a foot where these social scientists who are stoking 466 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: nationalistic and racist concerns over declining white birthrates and rising 467 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: immigrant populations. I mean, even Theodore Roosevelt in said women 468 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: of good stock who refused to have children were race criminals. Yeah, 469 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: there was an attitude that it was a sign of 470 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: moral disease if you chose to limit your family, and 471 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: that we need a growing population of healthy white workers essentially, 472 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: and the best way for that to happen is to 473 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: make sure that women can't go to these midwives and 474 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: get abortions or ABORTI factions. And part of that had 475 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: to do with how uh doctors in the professionalization of 476 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: medicine and obstetrics attempted to scientifically debunk midwiffery and also 477 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 1: establish the hospital rather than the home, as the place 478 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: where birth and any kind of a maternal related care 479 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: should take place. Yeah, and Reagan writes about this as 480 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: allowing doctors to adjudicate the legality of abortions. That's a 481 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: lot of words, but it essentially is talking about how 482 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 1: doctors and state politicians start working together to make sure 483 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: that women can only get abortions in hospitals, but then 484 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 1: only in the case of life threatening emergencies. But like 485 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier, what does this do. This essentially only 486 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: leaves the wiggle room for wealthier women to be able 487 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: to continue to access abortion. Yeah, they would be called 488 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: therapeutic abortions, and so some doctors would declare morning sickness 489 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 1: as reason enough to have a therapeutic abortion. So now 490 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: we have this, you know, abortion still existing, but something 491 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: that's really only accessible for the wealthiest women. And we 492 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: have so many layers going on so far, so we 493 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 1: have some racism of foot and some eugenics going on, 494 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: we have the professionalization of medicine and obstetrics. We we 495 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: have women being shoved at the side, basically being told 496 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: that their feelings about physical and emotional feelings about the 497 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: quickening are total bunk. We have concern about the women's 498 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 1: movement of foot and men having to be held to 499 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: a new sexual standard. And then of course we have religion. 500 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 1: We got some religion in the background not helping things 501 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: out either. In eighteen sixty nine, Pope Pious the Ninth 502 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: declared embryos human beings with us all at the time 503 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: of conception and declares that abortions lead to excommunication, and 504 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: then in a papal decree condemned therapeutic abortions as well. Yeah, 505 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: so no abortions under any circumstances at all in the 506 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: view of the Catholic Church. So it's thanks to this 507 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: combination of all of this factors that Christian was just 508 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 1: mentioning that led to abortion being redefined almost completely as immoral, 509 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: though it was still common. I mean, it's not like 510 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: it went away, and that's something that we need to 511 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: re emphasize, like abortion has never stopped. People will always 512 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 1: seek abortion. And it also didn't necessarily mean that women 513 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: felt yet a moral obligation to carry a pregnancy to 514 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 1: turn despite the fact that women, midwives, female doctors, you 515 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: name it, they were all under these basically character attacks 516 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,320 Speaker 1: from so many male doctors who are essentially mounting a 517 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,760 Speaker 1: backlash against, like Kristen said, the women's movement, against women 518 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: having power of any kind, against women relying on any 519 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 1: self knowledge of their bodies and their pregnancies and being 520 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 1: able to say what's what. And that's where we get 521 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 1: a lot of the modern argument that the professionalization of 522 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,359 Speaker 1: medicine is anti feminist. That's where a lot of that 523 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: argument stems from, that women were no longer allowed a 524 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 1: voice in their own bodies, in their own healthcare well. 525 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 1: And it's such a stark example not only of the 526 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: professionalization of medicine and the impact that can have on 527 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: women's lives, but also the politicization of medicine as well, because, 528 00:34:55,080 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: as Leslie Reagan underscores, there couldn't be this oh like 529 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 1: huge impact of abortion ultimately being criminalized if you didn't 530 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: have alliances between doctors and the state, to the point 531 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 1: that you have judges like Chicago judge John P. Mcgourty 532 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,400 Speaker 1: ruling in nineteen fifteen that a woman who would destroy 533 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: life in that manner a k and abortion is not 534 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 1: fit for decent society. So, I mean, you just have 535 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 1: all of these forces at work. I mean, it's it's 536 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: almost the perfect, most imperfect storm in the mid to 537 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: late nineteenth century that ended up criminalizing something that used 538 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 1: to very much be a way of life in the 539 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:51,360 Speaker 1: days of the Founding Fathers. Yeah, and so by this point, 540 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,280 Speaker 1: not only is abortion illegal, but the women who seek 541 00:35:55,400 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 1: them are officially breaking the law. Their immoral and their irresponsible. 542 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 1: And it's almost comedic if it weren't so sad that 543 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:08,759 Speaker 1: men are lacking from this conversation, not in terms of 544 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: who's legislating things, obviously that's the dudes in this scenario, 545 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 1: but the men who are getting these women pregnant. Um. 546 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: But that just goes back to the whole discussion of 547 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,240 Speaker 1: so many women in this era who were seeking abortions 548 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,720 Speaker 1: were not necessarily the prostitutes that everyone was so worried 549 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: about on the street corners of Chicago, but rather mothers 550 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,760 Speaker 1: who were already having so many children and whose bodies 551 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 1: were becoming destroyed, and who didn't have enough money to 552 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: feed these children that they were having. These are the 553 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,439 Speaker 1: women who were more likely seeking these procedures, and so 554 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: as a result of making abortion illegal and of labeling 555 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: women who seek them as immoral and irresponsible. You have 556 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 1: so many women, especially poor women of color, going to 557 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: deadly links to obtain abortions, especially if they did not 558 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: have much money. And this really sets us up for 559 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 1: our next episode where we're going to lead you through 560 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:14,360 Speaker 1: the conversation of how essentially UH women tried to help 561 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 1: other women achieve abortions achieve birth control, and that would 562 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: then lead us to the Row versus Way decision in 563 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: and in the meantime, of course, we want to hear 564 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 1: from you. What are your thoughts on abortion history, and 565 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 1: especially if you live outside the United States, what do 566 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 1: you know about your own countries abortion history. Mom's Stuff 567 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com is our email address. 568 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast or 569 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 1: messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages 570 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 1: to share with you right now. Well, I have a 571 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:58,840 Speaker 1: letter here from Abby about our Gilmore Girls episode. She says, Hello, ladies, 572 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: I'm nineteen and I grew up watching Gilmore Girls with 573 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 1: my mom and sister. We started watching at the very 574 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,359 Speaker 1: beginning when I was about four, and since then we've 575 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 1: been watching and rewatching all of the episodes. At this point, 576 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,440 Speaker 1: I think I've seen all of them at least five times. 577 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,279 Speaker 1: There's something that's always been special about watching this tight 578 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: knit mom and daughter show with my mom and sister, 579 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 1: and we've assigned characters to just about all of our friends. 580 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,319 Speaker 1: My mom is missus Kim, my sister is a mix 581 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,279 Speaker 1: of Rory in Paris and I'm Laine. I loved hearing 582 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,400 Speaker 1: you guys talk about something so near and dear to 583 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 1: my heart that's made me laugh and cry and everything 584 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,759 Speaker 1: in between. Since it's been on Netflix, I've gotten the 585 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:35,879 Speaker 1: chance to watch it with friends and argue about which 586 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,439 Speaker 1: of Rory's boyfriend's is the best. The answer is none 587 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 1: of them, which is really amazing as well, especially when 588 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,759 Speaker 1: it's their first time funny story too. There's a little 589 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,760 Speaker 1: place in the tiny town where I went to college 590 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 1: called Luke's Joint that serves breakfast. I spent a few 591 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: homesick lunches eating breakfast there, which always helped, especially since 592 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 1: the owner was kind of grumpy like Luke Danes's. I'm 593 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: really looking forward to watching the reboot with my mom 594 00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: and sister. We've already planned to watch it together no 595 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 1: matter where we end up in twenty sev and probably 596 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,440 Speaker 1: watch all of the episodes again. Thanks for an amazing show. 597 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: Thank you, Abby, and I've got to let her here 598 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,760 Speaker 1: from Amy. Also about our Gilmore Girls episode, she writes, 599 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,279 Speaker 1: I watched the show since the beginning of season one, 600 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,279 Speaker 1: and I loved it because it's very sweet, fun and funny. 601 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:21,160 Speaker 1: I loved that Rory loved to read, although I certainly 602 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,920 Speaker 1: didn't have a dean thinking my love of reading was sexy. 603 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 1: I have some points I wanted to make based on 604 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 1: whether or not the show is feminist, the amount of 605 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,880 Speaker 1: minorities representative, etcetera. I'm also a big fan of Gilmore Guys, 606 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:34,920 Speaker 1: and I'm listening to the latest episode as I type this. 607 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 1: It is a feminist show, and here are some examples. First, 608 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 1: Laura Lae names Rory after herself, and Roy uses Laura's 609 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 1: last name, not her father's last name. Two, lots of 610 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 1: women run businesses. The independence in the dragonfly In and 611 00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,719 Speaker 1: even the town Mechanic are all women. Miss Patty is 612 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:55,800 Speaker 1: strongly independent, as is Paris three. Rory is more renowned 613 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,440 Speaker 1: for her brain than just want anything else. Yes, Liddell 614 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,040 Speaker 1: is attractive, but Dean likes her her smarts and whip. 615 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 1: That really is cool. Second, the show really does show 616 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,799 Speaker 1: a wide range of people in types. Maybe I'm wrong, 617 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,400 Speaker 1: but isn't Michelle a person of color? He was one 618 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,240 Speaker 1: of the main characters on the show, and they mentioned 619 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 1: him being French and don't focus on this color. But 620 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:15,760 Speaker 1: I always thought of him as a person of color. 621 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,719 Speaker 1: To Lane, another major character that is way more than 622 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 1: the Asian girl. Yes, her mother has some quirks, but 623 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,120 Speaker 1: if they were going for stereotypes, she would have been 624 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,480 Speaker 1: super brainy like Rory, very good at math and shine, quiet, 625 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 1: and maybe good at the piano. Three look at the town. 626 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,479 Speaker 1: Suki is a larger woman, but look at her. She's 627 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: not a fat chick obsessed with losing weight, being the 628 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 1: loser who doesn't have a boyfriend. She's the one who, 629 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:41,759 Speaker 1: in my opinion, has the most solid relationship with a 630 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,799 Speaker 1: man in the entire series. She's school, pretty funny, and 631 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:48,759 Speaker 1: super talented. Miss Patty also not then was super sexy. 632 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,160 Speaker 1: So yes, I've spent long periods of time thinking about 633 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:53,240 Speaker 1: all these things. I love the show, and I feel 634 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 1: if they try to show in a bunch of types 635 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 1: just to fill of quota, it wouldn't have read as real, 636 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,879 Speaker 1: So thanks me and thanks to everybody who's written into us. 637 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our 638 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 1: email address and for links to all of our social 639 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,400 Speaker 1: media as well as all of our blogs, videos, and 640 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:13,320 Speaker 1: podcasts with our sources. So you can read more about 641 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,520 Speaker 1: the history of abortion. Head on over to stuff mom 642 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:23,840 Speaker 1: Never Told You dot com for moralness and thousands of 643 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:33,880 Speaker 1: other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com